Guild Wars 2

Alright, so I’m fairly new to GW2 lore so perhaps this is something that is more easily answered. Why are we helping Aurene? I assumed that Glint’s egg may not be a dragon but something else and so it was worth protecting due to the unknown. But now that we know it is indeed a dragon why are we helping it? Or at the very least why has no one stopped and said “whoa, what exactly are we doing here?” It seems like we’ve simply jumped to the idea that protecting a dragon is an objectively good thing.

Perhaps it’s simply instinct, but I think our PC is more intelligent than to follow instinct blindly. I have a few questions, then, concerning lore some of which I’d like to be answered in episode 3.

1: Is Aurene an elder dragon? My understanding is that when we talk of dragons we exclusively mean elder dragons. Since we’ve called Aurene a dragon, we are calling her an elder dragon.

2: Granted Glint turned against Kralkatorrik to help Destiny’s Edge, but my understanding was Glint was Kralkatorrik’s champion, not a dragon herself. Am I understanding this correctly?

3: Given 1 and 2 are true, Aurene will need to consume magic and as a result will become very powerful. Is she just using us for that end? How do we know her motives are good? Why haven’t we asked that yet? Can we really trust an elder dragon even if we were able to trust Glint? And if so, what does that mean for when Aurene grows up? Does this change how elder dragons will operate in the future?

You have a point that we don’t really know if Aurene is truly evil or not. But she’s just hatched and is rather young and impressionable. Being Glint’s Legacy and practically raised by the PC and the Exalted, I’m assuming she’ll become a force for good, if not for neutrality.

My theory is: yes she’s an elder dragon. And after the other Elder Dragons have been destroyed, she will become the most powerful and influential.

However, this wouldn’t make her necessarily evil. She will take over the role the Elder Dragons had but in a new, more peaceful fashion.

1. No. Not all dragons are Elder Dragons. GW1 had a large variety of dragons, and only Glint was tied to the Elder Dragons then – indication in lore is that she was a dragon before being corrupted by Kralkatorrik even, though this is still largely speculation. Glint does mention a world in the past where dragons ruled, but whether this refers to the previous dragonrise or a time more ancient is also unknown. Either way, there’s indications of many species of dragons and dragon-like kin (I’ve counted 5 confirmed, 6 speculated such species).

We largely speak of Elder Dragons – and their minions – when talking of dragons because that’s the only kind of dragons that Tyrians deal with anymore… until wyverns.

2. Glint turned against Kralkatorrik millenia before Destiny’s Edge was forged or born. She was both a dragon and Kralkatorrik’s champion. This is what she looked like in GW1.

3. In theory, yes, she’d need to consume magic to live and as a result of doing such she can potentially become more powerful. We do not know what her own motives are, but do human babies have motives in the months after being born?

The whole point seems to be (note: still theory since Anet likes to keep players in the dark about vitally important things for the sake of “mystery” even though that’s not a mystery at all) raising a dragon who could become a benevolent Elder Dragon. Nurturing Aurene to be compassionate about the races, whereas the Elder Dragons are malevolent. And on top of that, it’s believed that we’ll be getting Aurene (and maybe her elder sibling, Gleam) to be replacements for the six Elder Dragons in full.

ZacHank.1358:

1: Is Aurene an elder dragon? My understanding is that when we talk of dragons we exclusively mean elder dragons. Since we’ve called Aurene a dragon, we are calling her an elder dragon.

It’s… more complicated than that. There have been plenty of dragon in GW who aren’t called Elder Dragons, and their relation to each other is still entirely vague. Generally speaking, though, ‘Elder Dragon’ seems to be more of a life phase or transformation than a separate species. The theory is that a dragon like Glint or Aurene could become an Elder Dragon under certain conditions- at this point, it’s assumed we just need to feed them enough of the magic that’s currently hoarded by the Elders.

2: Granted Glint turned against Kralkatorrik to help Destiny’s Edge, but my understanding was Glint was Kralkatorrik’s champion, not a dragon herself. Am I understanding this correctly?

Glint, like the Shatterer or Tequatl, was an Elder Dragon’s champion who was herself a dragon. In Glint’s case in particular we’re told she was once independent creature before being corrupted by Kralkatorrik, making her essentially the same as any Branded charr or human until the Forgotten freed her.

3: Given 1 and 2 are true, Aurene will need to consume magic and as a result will become very powerful. Is she just using us for that end? How do we know her motives are good? Why haven’t we asked that yet? Can we really trust an elder dragon even if we were able to trust Glint? And if so, what does that mean for when Aurene grows up? Does this change how elder dragons will operate in the future?

Breaking this down:
-We have no way of knowing.
-We don’t… necessarily. She seems to communicate through some kind of telepathy, so I suppose it could be possible our characters can sense her intentions, but we don’t have much indication of that yet.
-Because we’re apparently treating her like a human infant, although I don’t know why. This ‘baby’ was warning us about important happenings when she was still an egg. Or it might just be that she can’t talk yet in the conventional sense, and our Commander isn’t sure how to initiate mental contact or if Aurene can understand what they’re saying.
-Presumably. We’ll see. The current theory is that the current Elders are just kitteny kittens, and that the attitude isn’t necessary to the position, but on the other hand we saw in Bloodstone Fen that being pumped full of too much magic has a way of shifting priorities. We’ll just have to wait and see.
-See above
-That’s the idea. We’re aiming to create our own Elder Dragon who preforms the necessary task of regulating environmental magic levels without the (we hope) unnecessary task of wiping out all civilization.

If the Pale Tree became good then there is no reason that Aurine can’t became as well.

ZacHank.1358:

1: Is Aurene an elder dragon? My understanding is that when we talk of dragons we exclusively mean elder dragons. Since we’ve called Aurene a dragon, we are calling her an elder dragon.

No, Aurene is the offspring of Glint similar to how the sylvari are the offspring of the Pale Tree. The Pale Tree is a champion of Mordremoth but for some reason (unexplored because apparently HoT wasn’t the time to explore them) the Pale Tree and her sylvari were independent from Mordremoth, which goes against everything we had seen from previous dragon minions, including destroyers who were actively serving their master before it awoke.

ZacHank.1358:

2: Granted Glint turned against Kralkatorrik to help Destiny’s Edge, but my understanding was Glint was Kralkatorrik’s champion, not a dragon herself. Am I understanding this correctly?

Both Glint and Aurene are dragons. It’s not the same thing as being an Elder Dragon.

Glint was freed from Kralkatorrik’s influence by a forgotten (the race) ritual which allowed her to act on her own and make the decision to fight against her former master, this happened long before Destinty’s Edge came along.

Glint is both a dragon and a dragon champion (similar to how a risen norn can both be a norn and a champion of Zhaitan, or the Shadow of the Dragon is both a dragon and a minion of Mordremoth). The concept of an Elder Dragon is primarily a way to give a shape or form to something of great power – their status as dragons doesn’t seem intended to reflect that they are serpent/reptile creatures but rather creatures of great power (the addition of elder is to distinguish them from other dragons like Glint or the Shadow of the Dragon). Elder Dragons have also been described as forces of nature, the dragon name seems to be primarily to express these are creatures of great power. Glint is more of a dragon in a sense that she looks like a dragon and lays eggs like a dragon.

There are other dragons in Tyria which are explicitly not Elder Dragons. In Kryta in GW1 there were bone dragons (similar to Tequatl) which were as the name suggests – the bones of a deceased dragon which were brought back (suggesting there were once living dragons as well, although we never see the living version of a bone dragon). In Cantha (another land across the ocean unaccessible in GW2) there were saltspray dragons, which were smaller than Glint and some bone dragons (although there was one notable exception – Kunnavang).

ZacHank.1358:

3: Given 1 and 2 are true, Aurene will need to consume magic and as a result will become very powerful. Is she just using us for that end? How do we know her motives are good? Why haven’t we asked that yet? Can we really trust an elder dragon even if we were able to trust Glint? And if so, what does that mean for when Aurene grows up? Does this change how elder dragons will operate in the future?

There is a suggestion from Marjory in Season 2 when we explore Glint’s lair that if Glint was around long enough, she would become capable of absorbing the released power of a defeated Elder Dragon and replace them as a benevolent Elder Dragon. This was introduced around the same time as the allegory for Elder Dragon magic flooding back into the world after their death becomes a threat if uncontrolled. Aurene is likely the future manifestation of this story (although it’s going to require some gymnastics to explain how a recently hatched dragon is able to absorb dragon energy in a way that not even Glint was ready to do after hundreds or thousands of years).

The questions of why we aren’t more skeptical of this situation or why we have placed such great importance on Aurene are ones which aren’t explored in the story. It’s vaguely suggested in Season 2 that the item the Master of Peace had was important and Caithe was after it as well but nothing was explicitly said to the player until we reached Tarir. Aurene is the offspring of Glint and according to Marjory and Kasmeer, the humans of Tyria still teach that Glint was a force for good (seems bizarre given how few humans interacted with Glint 250 years ago) so it’s believable the player would hope that Aurene will follow her mother. It’s possible the story moving forward will explore the potential for Aurene to be an enemy (especially if Glint’s other offspring shown in GW1 return as “corrupted” dragon minions revealing what could happen to Aurene).

Thanks for the responses guys! This really clears some things up for me lore-wise. I really like the idea of Aurene being or becoming a good elder dragon. I really hope the future story explores the hope of that while maintaining the threat of Aurene becoming corrupt.

TL;DR: the concept of dragon is not the villain. The elder dragons are 6 dragons so big and ‘elder’ their magic overshadows that of anything else in the world. Most lesser dragons were forced into servitude by the elder dragons, but thats a variable thing. Glint wan’t born a champion of Kralkatorrik, but branded (crystallified) into servitude until the seers cleansed her again.

So in short, dragons aren’t necisarily evil, but the six greatest one are, and many lessers are willingly and unwillingly dragged into the war.

Amaimon.7823:

TL;DR: the concept of dragon is not the villain. The elder dragons are 6 dragons so big and ‘elder’ their magic overshadows that of anything else in the world. Most lesser dragons were forced into servitude by the elder dragons, but thats a variable thing. Glint wan’t born a champion of Kralkatorrik, but branded (crystallified) into servitude until the seers cleansed her again.

So in short, dragons aren’t necisarily evil, but the six greatest one are, and many lessers are willingly and unwillingly dragged into the war.

Even that depends on what you mean by “evil.” The dragons sleep and ooze magic, they wake up hungry, then they consume magic, and finally they are sated and can go back to sleep once more. That sounds like any number of naturally-occurring species to me, granted on a much larger scale than any extant ecosystem on our Earth.

Of course, as intelligent, even sentient/sapient creatures, the five grand races of Tyria (represented by the five races of player characters in-game) have every right to defend themselves from an untimely demise whether natural or otherwise. In every natural predator-prey relationship, the prey has defenses which the predator must necessarily overcome in order for the predator itself to survive.

To sum it up, the more of the story is revealed, the less I think of GW2 as just another good v evil fantasy world. It seems like it may be far more complex and nuanced than that… ...especially now that Lazarus is back in the mix as an ally.

gryph.8734:

Even that depends on what you mean by “evil.” The dragons sleep and ooze magic, they wake up hungry, then they consume magic, and finally they are sated and can go back to sleep once more. That sounds like any number of naturally-occurring species to me, granted on a much larger scale than any extant ecosystem on our Earth.

Eh…

They can do all that without intentionally wiping out entire civilizations, turning living beings into monstrocities, setting loved ones against each other, enslaving said living beings by overwriting their free will, and threatening genocide.

If all they did was wake up, eat magic, then go back to sleep to leak it out… they’d not be villains. Because they wouldn’t be assaulting all known civilizations and creating vast hordes of minions to do so.

The Elder Dragons are very clearly intelligent and very clearly function with their own personal goal in mind which is not merely (and possibly doesn’t even include) the balancing of magic.

Zhaitan’s champions all talked about eternal life through undeath and the reunion (and lack of loss) of loved ones and friends, while Zhaitan sat in a rather literal kingdom of undead (stations and ranks retained besides kings/queens, risen resumed their work from when non-corrupted, but all were enslaved to Zhaitan’s will). (Which makes one wonder what led Zhaitan to focus on offering reuninion with loved ones…).

Mordremoth personally talks about being the world and being home, while those it corrupted talk about destroying the world, and Mordremoth being truth, indicating a desire and goal to replace the known world and become the sustainer of life.

Jormag offers power (and not just via the Sons of Svanir doctrine), takes primarily willing converts, and even lets go unwilling yet powerful individuals (Frozen Portal hero challenge in Frostgorge), indicating an intent to turn the world into where “survival of the fittest” is law, without intent of corrupting all life unlike the other Elder Dragons (in a way, this makes Jormag the least evil Elder Dragon).

Etc. etc.

Honestly, the Elder Dragons have not gotten the screentime the small, staggeringly spread out hints of their personas deserve. If it were a comic with a humanoid villain, I feel the plot against Zhaitan would have featured a mini-series or set of chapters featuring a flashback to what led Zhaitan down a dark path that included ensuring his “subjects” never lose loved ones, like a personal loss himself while trying to become a good ruler and was betrayed by his own subjects or something.

And now I have images of a dragon kingdom where Zhaitan ruled in ancient Tyria… and I want said comic to be a thing, even if for nothing but laughs at the silliness of the prospect.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

gryph.8734:

Even that depends on what you mean by “evil.” The dragons sleep and ooze magic, they wake up hungry, then they consume magic, and finally they are sated and can go back to sleep once more. That sounds like any number of naturally-occurring species to me, granted on a much larger scale than any extant ecosystem on our Earth.

Eh…

They can do all that without intentionally wiping out entire civilizations, turning living beings into monstrocities, setting loved ones against each other, enslaving said living beings by overwriting their free will, and threatening genocide.

If all they did was wake up, eat magic, then go back to sleep to leak it out… they’d not be villains. Because they wouldn’t be assaulting all known civilizations and creating vast hordes of minions to do so.

The Elder Dragons are very clearly intelligent and very clearly function with their own personal goal in mind which is not merely (and possibly doesn’t even include) the balancing of magic.

Zhaitan’s champions all talked about eternal life through undeath and the reunion (and lack of loss) of loved ones and friends, while Zhaitan sat in a rather literal kingdom of undead (stations and ranks retained besides kings/queens, risen resumed their work from when non-corrupted, but all were enslaved to Zhaitan’s will). (Which makes one wonder what led Zhaitan to focus on offering reuninion with loved ones…).

Mordremoth personally talks about being the world and being home, while those it corrupted talk about destroying the world, and Mordremoth being truth, indicating a desire and goal to replace the known world and become the sustainer of life.

Jormag offers power (and not just via the Sons of Svanir doctrine), takes primarily willing converts, and even lets go unwilling yet powerful individuals (Frozen Portal hero challenge in Frostgorge), indicating an intent to turn the world into where “survival of the fittest” is law, without intent of corrupting all life unlike the other Elder Dragons (in a way, this makes Jormag the least evil Elder Dragon).

Etc. etc.

Honestly, the Elder Dragons have not gotten the screentime the small, staggeringly spread out hints of their personas deserve. If it were a comic with a humanoid villain, I feel the plot against Zhaitan would have featured a mini-series or set of chapters featuring a flashback to what led Zhaitan down a dark path that included ensuring his “subjects” never lose loved ones, like a personal loss himself while trying to become a good ruler and was betrayed by his own subjects or something.

And now I have images of a dragon kingdom where Zhaitan ruled in ancient Tyria… and I want said comic to be a thing, even if for nothing but laughs at the silliness of the prospect.

I stand by my assertion, though it is pure speculation on my part. If we apply human/sapient standards of behavior to real predators on earth, some of their behavior might look downright evil at times, as well: toying with kills, appearing to take pleasure at the suffering of their prey. But that’s exactly what it is; application of human standards to a species that doesn’t recognize rights or morality simply because it’s incapable of doing so.

Does any of this apply to the elder dragons? I’m honestly not sure. A predator/prey relationship is one way to look at this, and I’m not sure if that’s even what the developers intended, but I find the idea interesting. I could imagine scholars at the Durmand Priory debating just such a thing, almost certainly over the objections of the militant Vigil.

Whatever the case, even if Tyria could be ruled over by elder dragon minions, two salient facts remain:

• Elder dragons do not cooperate. The demonstrated tendancy of their minions to fight each other (established in lore) does in fact suggest a predator/prey relationship.

• No matter how powerful elder dragons get, no matter how long they stay awake, magic is finite and eventually the dragons must sleep, even if it takes centuries or millenia, even if it takes until the face of Tyria is scoured clean of life.

I can not stress enough, any or all of my speculation may turn out to be true or false. I do have a fair amount of difficulty in reconciling the predatory aspects of elder dragon behavior with the aspects that do indeed look evil. Both Zhaitan and Mordremoth have issued pretty explicit threats, though they have always done so through proxies. Earth predators don’t have the privilege of assembling armies of minions to do their hunting for them as the elder dragons do. And so the debate rages on…

gryph.8734:

I stand by my assertion, though it is pure speculation on my part. If we apply human/sapient standards of behavior to real predators on earth, some of their behavior might look downright evil at times, as well: toying with kills, appearing to take pleasure at the suffering of their prey. But that’s exactly what it is; application of human standards to a species that doesn’t recognize rights or morality simply because it’s incapable of doing so.

Depends on how you view it. Without other sapient and, more importantly, communicating species to interact with we cannot really be certain if the things you mention are “human” or merely “civilized”. After all, there are – and were – human cultures who developed with a completely different sense of what is “right” and what is “wrong”.

But in the fictional world of Tyria, there are communicating non-human creatures, and the Elder Dragons are among those numbers.

So when looking at the morality and ethics of other species in a fictional universe, reality comparisons don’t really work because, simply put, in reality there is no other known species which are sapient, civilized, and communicate with us.

(I would argue, on an aside, that even animals are not without morals of their own – it’s just that theirs are so vastly different than ours due to a different lifestyle, culture, means of communication, and so forth. But this is, in a way, an entirely different can of worms.)

gryph.8734:

Does any of this apply to the elder dragons? I’m honestly not sure. A predator/prey relationship is one way to look at this, and I’m not sure if that’s even what the developers intended, but I find the idea interesting. I could imagine scholars at the Durmand Priory debating just such a thing, almost certainly over the objections of the militant Vigil.

Would you say that the charr are exempt from laws of morality, simply for not being human? Or grawl? Would you list the krait as simply a species functioning on predator/prey relationships and are thus unencumbered by ethical discussion in regards to their enslavement and sacrifices of sapient and non-sapient species?

gryph.8734:

• Elder dragons do not cooperate. The demonstrated tendancy of their minions to fight each other (established in lore) does in fact suggest a predator/prey relationship.

This “salient fact” actually may not be such a fact. It was established in a lore interview with Ree Soesbee that dragon minions fight… but then in a separate interview with Angel McCoy, she said it was “up in the air” and unknown to Tyrian scholars; and in Season 2, we see mordrem right next to branded with… zero conflict.

Wouldn’t surprise me if yet another thing Ree stated in interviews has been retconned by the current “writers”.

gryph.8734:

• No matter how powerful elder dragons get, no matter how long they stay awake, magic is finite and eventually the dragons must sleep, even if it takes centuries or millenia, even if it takes until the face of Tyria is scoured clean of life.

However, one must ask that if a) there were not six and/or b) they were not actively in an arms race against each other to consume the most magic for their own personal goals, but instead slowly managed magic over time, would the world really run out of magic and force them to sleep?

The only fact there is simply: magic is finite, and thus far in the past, the Elder Dragons have always consumed magic at a rate which eventually put them to sleep due to running out of magic to eat.

Whether they must eventually go to sleep has not been answered. They’ve never – to our knowledge – attempted proper management of magic consumption.

gryph.8734:

Both Zhaitan and Mordremoth have issued pretty explicit threats, though they have always done so through proxies. Earth predators don’t have the privilege of assembling armies of minions to do their hunting for them as the elder dragons do. And so the debate rages on…

Mordremoth was talking directly from its own mouth (both literally and metaphorically) when it threatened us.

Earth predators don’t tend to overhunt their hunting grounds, unless they’re an invasive species and simply cannot survive on the meager amount of food their new homes offer.

yey, I started a war about morals ^^

Predators overhunt their hunting grounds all the time. It’s a constant cycle — they eat while they’re able until the number of prey go down and the predators starve to death, then as the number of predators go down the number of prey species go up.

And as for the “mouth of mordremoth” issuing threats, those threats didn’t end with the mouth’s death. Mordremoth transcended its very physical existence, and was not put to death until its Sylvari proxy was killed. I don’t see what that has to do with the possibility that the dragons are amoral predators, but whatevs.

Nor is the question of Charr morality germane to this discussion. At one point, the Charr viewed themselves as predators and humans as prey. Now the Charr are prey to something much bigger than themselves, and so they’re allying with humans out of necessity for survival. These facts are not in dispute. The Charr certainly are sapient, and they do have a moral code. What I am positing is that the elder dragons might simply not be bound at all by such notions as good and evil. Scarlett’s discovery in Omadd’s chamber again suggests that the dragons themselves are an amoral part of nature. Not immoral, but amoral.

Even if all this is true, it bears repeating that prey species have defenses as well as the right to defend themselves. That the sapient races of Tyria are doing the right thing in protecting themselves and their children is not in dispute here.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

This “salient fact” actually may not be such a fact. It was established in a lore interview with Ree Soesbee that dragon minions fight… but then in a separate interview with Angel McCoy, she said it was “up in the air” and unknown to Tyrian scholars; and in Season 2, we see mordrem right next to branded with… zero conflict.

Wouldn’t surprise me if yet another thing Ree stated in interviews has been retconned by the current “writers”.

Not really a retcon if you think about it. Mordremoth is dead, and his energy is being absorbed by Primordus. His realm of magic was robbed of a leader, and Primordus is absorbing parts of his realm, becoming the leader of it and the mordrem. They’re not fighting because they’re now being led by the same ED. So every ED that absorbs the magic of another ED becomes the ruler of that one’s minions. So when Primordus dies, whichever dragon absorbs the power next will become the new ruler of the minions. So we may have a time where we see Kralky using Branded, Risen, Mordrem, Destroyers, etc under his command.

I don’t see what Primordus absorbing Mordremoth’s magic in 1329 AE has to do with the mordrem that appeared in Iron Marches in Season 2 being literally five feet from Kralkatorrik’s corruption and minions (the Dragonbrand and branded( in 1328 AE with no open conflict exiting.

I will also note that we don’t see any mordrem near destroyers – though we did have such during the mordrem invasion last year in September in Brisban Wildlands. But IIRC, mordrem didn’t attack anything but players until there was splash damage dealt so lack of conflict in that short-lived event could be chalked up to laziness/oversight-in-haste with mechanical design. Even if that was intended in lore for some reason, that was still over a month before Mordremoth’s death in lore.

Why are We Helping a Dragon?

Because it’s CUUUUUUUTE.

Dragons absorb magic of dead dragons, that means the more we defeat than stronger they will be – except we have a dragon of our own. We could use that dragon as cleaner after a dragon was defeated that the other clearly evil ones don’t do it. And that’s just the most obvious tactical advantage

This is speculation but Glint we need to remember was a smaller dragon than Krak. Glint was so interested in the human race that she choose to protect and guide it. I would assume that the races would share their knowledge about Glint with her offspring.

SMGDH,

Folks, Glint gave her life in an effort to save the other races of Tyria. Aurene is her daughter.

If nothing else we need to protect and nurture Aurene as a debt of honor. In addition, there is every reason to suspect that she’ll grow up to be an ally.

Ithilwen.1529:

Folks, Glint gave her life in an effort to save the other races of Tyria. Aurene is her daughter.

If nothing else we need to protect and nurture Aurene as a debt of honor. In addition, there is every reason to suspect that she’ll grow up to be an ally.

Yes, we must protect Jesus’sGlint’s daughter! She was given to us to forgive our sinsabsorb the ambient dragon magic! All hail … no, All hail Aurene!

Tiefsee.3647:

Dragons absorb magic of dead dragons, that means the more we defeat than stronger they will be – except we have a dragon of our own. We could use that dragon as cleaner after a dragon was defeated that the other clearly evil ones don’t do it. And that’s just the most obvious tactical advantage

Do all dragons absorb magic, or is there something special that set the Elder Dragons apart? Glint and her offspring aren’t really a guide for what is normal with dragons, since at this point they’re as much dragons as Sylvari are humans. The Canthan dragons might be the only real dragons left.

I mean, the Gods might just be humans who gained or naturally possessed the Elder Dragons’ ability to absorb certain types of magic (Kormir’s apotheosis would certainly suggest that all the gods may have once been human, and the lore for some like Grenth and Lyssa as much as says so). The Chak eat ley energy and filter out certain types of Dragon magic — maybe a Chak hive could eventually become the equivalent of an Elder Dragon. And Bloodstone crystal seems to absorb magic and have some related ability to grow and spread, like an Elder Dragon.

In the end, it seems to be an ability shared by a number of beings/phenomenae.

We know dragon minions, including champions, can consume magic. But we don’t outright know that other dragons, such as Saltspray Dragons in Cantha, consume magic. Or wyverns, or whatever species the Bone Dragons were before apparent extinction.

Glint’s dialogue in Edge of Destiny could be taken to mean that in the past the world was ruled by non-ED dragons and that they all ate magic. But it isn’t certain.

There’s also that line in the Zephyrite journal, that says " Dragons consume magic, but they do not destroy it. They hold it within themselves like a sponge holds water." That sounds to me like a general trait of the entire creature type. (It’s also worth noting that the Zephyrites are the only characters we’ve met who’ve been to Cantha, so that statement probably takes the Saltsprays and Rockhides into account.)

Aaron Ansari.1604:

There’s also that line in the Zephyrite journal, that says " Dragons consume magic, but they do not destroy it. They hold it within themselves like a sponge holds water." That sounds to me like a general trait of the entire creature type. (It’s also worth noting that the Zephyrites are the only characters we’ve met who’ve been to Cantha, so that statement probably takes the Saltsprays and Rockhides into account.)

To be more specific:
Its like a cycle we have with plants and animals

Animals consume Oxygen, and create Carbon Dioxide
Plants consume Cabron Dioxide and create Oxygen.

So dragons consume Magic and create Corrupted Magic
During their sleep, the Corrupted Magic seeps back into the earth and is slowly returned to normal Magic. When the Dragon wakes up from its hibernation, its hungry again and starts consuming that Magic again.

There is no written lore on how exactly this magical exchange is performed, though, I always just assumed that the ‘earth’ or ‘eternal alchemy’ purifies the corrupted magic

Amaimon.7823:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

There’s also that line in the Zephyrite journal, that says " Dragons consume magic, but they do not destroy it. They hold it within themselves like a sponge holds water." That sounds to me like a general trait of the entire creature type. (It’s also worth noting that the Zephyrites are the only characters we’ve met who’ve been to Cantha, so that statement probably takes the Saltsprays and Rockhides into account.)

To be more specific:
Its like a cycle we have with plants and animals

Animals consume Oxygen, and create Carbon Dioxide
Plants consume Cabron Dioxide and create Oxygen.

So dragons consume Magic and create Corrupted Magic
During their sleep, the Corrupted Magic seeps back into the earth and is slowly returned to normal Magic. When the Dragon wakes up from its hibernation, its hungry again and starts consuming that Magic again.

There is no written lore on how exactly this magical exchange is performed, though, I always just assumed that the ‘earth’ or ‘eternal alchemy’ purifies the corrupted magic

…or there’s a final dragon, one who does this other exchange. He devours the corrupted magic and turns it back into normal magic. Maybe a dragon called Tyria?

To be clear, it’s not confirmed, or even suggested, that dragons naturally corrupt. That analogy is a bit misleading. Instead, it seems that the corruption is a conscious, deliberate choice, one they have a fair measure of control over.

It’d probably be more apt to compare them to the water cycle. Rain falls and gets locked up in the ground, then evaporates off and reforms into clouds, all according to the natural rhythm, but while it’s on the ground a thinking being and tap it and redirect it to achieve something that wouldn’t happen naturally. Substitute water for magic and dragons for the ground, and you’re set.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

To be clear, it’s not confirmed, or even suggested, that dragons naturally corrupt. That analogy is a bit misleading. Instead, it seems that the corruption is a conscious, deliberate choice, one they have a fair measure of control over.

It’d probably be more apt to compare them to the water cycle. Rain falls and gets locked up in the ground, then evaporates off and reforms into clouds, all according to the natural rhythm, but while it’s on the ground a thinking being and tap it and redirect it to achieve something that wouldn’t happen naturally. Substitute water for magic and dragons for the ground, and you’re set.

I didnt say all dragons corrupt magic. The Elder Dragons corrupt magic. They taint, rot, break it down to a most unstable, undesired form. A magic that can only rot away the soul, a magic that can only break down, a magic that taints any creatures it passes through.
But your water anolagy isnt sound. By your anolagy, you could dig a well and use the water(magic) but the magic inside a dragon is the last kind of magic a living creature wants to touch. Even a pendant with a faint aura was corrupted enough to turn loyal soldiers into undead.

Amaimon.7823:

But your water anolagy isnt sound. By your anolagy, you could dig a well and use the water(magic) but the magic inside a dragon is the last kind of magic a living creature wants to touch. Even a pendant with a faint aura was corrupted enough to turn loyal soldiers into undead.

I think the water table analogy is fine, but the comparisons are wrong. Leylines are clearly the underground rivers of magic that can be tapped into, so the magic the dragons are eating is more akin to evaporation. The magic gets absorbed into the “sky” (read: dragons) and can’t be used by the creatures on the ground, but once the dragon falls asleep, it starts releasing a steady rain of magic that either fills the air or pools into the leylines.

Also, nothing says that the magic being consumed by the dragons is being corrupted. The only corrupting dragons do is to the living being itself, not the magic. I don’t know how that line of thinking got started, so stop it. Right now.

Rognik.2579:

Amaimon.7823:

But your water anolagy isnt sound. By your anolagy, you could dig a well and use the water(magic) but the magic inside a dragon is the last kind of magic a living creature wants to touch. Even a pendant with a faint aura was corrupted enough to turn loyal soldiers into undead.

I think the water table analogy is fine, but the comparisons are wrong. Leylines are clearly the underground rivers of magic that can be tapped into, so the magic the dragons are eating is more akin to evaporation. The magic gets absorbed into the “sky” (read: dragons) and can’t be used by the creatures on the ground, but once the dragon falls asleep, it starts releasing a steady rain of magic that either fills the air or pools into the leylines.

Also, nothing says that the magic being consumed by the dragons is being corrupted. The only corrupting dragons do is to the living being itself, not the magic. I don’t know how that line of thinking got started, so stop it. Right now.

Magic that is inside dragons or released by dragons is corrupted. That was a point in several personal story chapters. Until the magic is restored in ‘some’ way its bad for people.

Amaimon.7823:

So dragons consume Magic and create Corrupted Magic
During their sleep, the Corrupted Magic seeps back into the earth and is slowly returned to normal Magic. When the Dragon wakes up from its hibernation, its hungry again and starts consuming that Magic again.

There is no written lore on how exactly this magical exchange is performed, though, I always just assumed that the ‘earth’ or ‘eternal alchemy’ purifies the corrupted magic

Actually, when Elder Dragons hibernate the magic they leak is not corrupted. The Six Gods pulled magic from Zhaitan to empower the Bloodstone, and the asura used magic leaked from Primordus. If that magic was corrupted, there’d be no asura or human race – there’d be destroyer asura and risen humans only.

Dragon corruption is shown to be an active act and not an innate one like breathing out carbon dioxide.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Amaimon.7823:

So dragons consume Magic and create Corrupted Magic
During their sleep, the Corrupted Magic seeps back into the earth and is slowly returned to normal Magic. When the Dragon wakes up from its hibernation, its hungry again and starts consuming that Magic again.

There is no written lore on how exactly this magical exchange is performed, though, I always just assumed that the ‘earth’ or ‘eternal alchemy’ purifies the corrupted magic

Actually, when Elder Dragons hibernate the magic they leak is not corrupted. The Six Gods pulled magic from Zhaitan to empower the Bloodstone, and the asura used magic leaked from Primordus. If that magic was corrupted, there’d be no asura or human race – there’d be destroyer asura and risen humans only.

Dragon corruption is shown to be an active act and not an innate one like breathing out carbon dioxide.

Arguably the dragon corruption is the dragon. In some cases (e.g. Zhaitan) the physical Elder Dragon is such a critical organ in that body that killing it renders the corruption brain-dead. In other cases, like Mordremoth, the body is irrelevant or cannot meaningfully be killed, and the mind has to be attacked directly. In both cases, the corruption persists as an organism, just without a single intelligence.

Seems like the magic the Dragons leak is not part of them, but a byproduct of inefficient digestion. They’re like magical bacteria colonies — they consume and break down more complex magical structures, growing and spreading but also producing raw elemental magic as a waste product, that could then be used by other creatures and races. However, this suggests that leyline magic is, for lack of a better word, low-entropy magic, unlike Dragon magic poop (assuming there is a Second Law of Aetherodynamics). Either it’s being refreshed somewhere in the cycle by something that is or takes an input (the magical equivalent of the sun or photosynthesizing organisms, possibly the Mists?), or ley energy itself is an input from outside the system.

I wouldn’t consider the fully active and strategizing risen in Arah explorable or Tequatl to be “brain dead” nor dependent on Zhaitan – though they act like Zhaitan lives. Prime example aside from Tequatl is the High Priestess of Lyssa, who pretends to be a Whispers agent fighting risen, fight risen with us, then lure us into a trap where she reveals herself. That’s not the actions of a brain-dead organism. As such, saying that Zhaitan’s corruption is part of it would be… questionable at best. Especially since Tequatl seemed to be taking Zhaitan’s place as a new Elder Death Dragon.

Mordremoth’s case wasn’t that Mordremoth was his corruption but that he could transfer his mind into his corruption. Mordremoth’s body (dubbed Mouth of Mordremoth in-game) was still his physical body, but he could basically do a mind transplant on the fly with any of his corruption.

Elder Dragons don’t seem to leak magic while awake, so it wouldn’t really be inefficient digestion. Rather, it’s more like retaining magic is an active choice, just as exuding corrupted magic is.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I wouldn’t consider the fully active and strategizing risen in Arah explorable or Tequatl to be “brain dead” nor dependent on Zhaitan – though they act like Zhaitan lives.

Sure, there are many cases of Dragon minions exhibiting intelligence and independent action (viz. Sylvari), but I guess I mean the central overmind that linked them all together in purpose and to some extent awareness died when Zhaitan’s physical form was destroyed. Not necessarily that monster barks reflect that, but I think that’s more of a gameplay limitation. Sylvari characters no longer feel Mordremoth’s will trying to dominate and corrupt them once it is killed.

Mordremoth’s case wasn’t that Mordremoth was his corruption but that he could transfer his mind into his corruption. Mordremoth’s body (dubbed Mouth of Mordremoth in-game) was still his physical body, but he could basically do a mind transplant on the fly with any of his corruption.

The Mouth of Mordremoth isn’t Mordremoth, it’s just a champion like the Mouth of Zhaitan, an implement by which the Dragon consumes energy. As they point out in the next to last story instance, all the plant matter you’re walking and fighting on is physically Mordremoth’s body. But in a more expansive sense, not to get too religious or anything, the Mordrem are the body of Mordremoth. Short of the Forgotten excommunication ritual, that’s a permanent transformation.

Sylvari are a terrible choice of example for dragon minions with regard to anything as they are drastically different from any dragon minion – even mordrem – especially in regards to intelligence and the fact they have free will (which dragon minions, even champions, all lack). There are (still) so many contradictions between them and mordrem (let alone other dragon minions) that it remains strange to me that they decided to go with that story direction (even if they claim that was their decision from the get go, it’s still weird as they created all those contradictions).

The risen in Arah don’t act any different from the risen elsewhere prior to Zhaitan’s death is what I was getting at, though. They act and function 100% the same as the risen you fight throughout Orr.

And the sylvari not feeling Mordremoth’s whispers in their mind is actually a pro to my argument that the Elder Dragons are not their corruption – because if that were so, then you’d need to destroy all of Mordremoth’s corruption to ultimately destroy him.

And you’re 100% false about the Mouth of Mordremoth. It is explicitly called an Elder Dragon in the fight several times (as well as being called such by developers). The Mouth of Mordremoth also talks in Mordremoth’s voice, with Mordremoth’s perspective. The Mouth of Zhaitan – in fact, there is not a single dragon champion that does this.

As I said before, Canach and Trahearne’s lines are misnomer – Mordremoth is not the jungle, nor is he technically his corruption (Taimi was more correct in her theory back in Season 2, but she got the why for “he is the giant vines” bit wrong – she thought they were growing out of him, as did Ogden, and this is somewhat true but they are controlled by him because of his domain of mind). He is capable of transferring his mind across his corruption (this is how he was able to plant a copy in Trahearne’s mind, and was able to whisper in the minds of all mordrem guard and sylvari – this is his domain of mind’s power), which effectively makes it as if the corruption were his body because he is seeing out of it and controlling it. Whether you’d consider that to mean the corruption “is Mordremoth” is a bit philosophical thus subjective, ultimately. But the Mouth of Mordremoth is Mordremoth’s draconic body – his “true body” if you were.

Broadly, I agree with Konig. As well as the Mouth of Mordremoth speaking as if it was Mordremoth rather than a seperate entity, there are other things indicating that the Mouth is directly controlled by Mordremoth rather than a champion – the Mouth also has the same silhouette as the shadow that appears when Mordremoth is talking (apart from when you’re fighting his Diablo-esque mind avatar), and in the instance it’s mentioned, even after Mordremoth appears to have recognised a real danger from the PC and allies, that it is distracted by the fighting outside. If the Mouth was a powerful champion that was separate from Mordremoth, then presumably Mordremoth could have left it to fight the battle outside while Mordremoth itself focuses on the real threat to its life.

However, I disagree with Konig’s disagreement with the lines of Canach and Trahearne. The impression I came away with is that while Mordremoth has a dragon-like head, his body is rooted deep into the ground with vines extending out across Tyria like those runner plants that you can get as weeds in lawns. He might have been a classical dragon once, but his plant magic has transformed him. The Mouth might not even actually be his original head, but something he grew in order to be able to eat the ley energy above ground in Dragon’s Stand.

His “Diablo-esque mind avatar” actually has the same head as the Mouth of Mordremoth (which is as said the same as the silhouette), and the silhouette also shows up during that avatar fight (in the sky overlooking the platform) so there’s that as well.

gryph.8734:

~snip~
I stand by my assertion, though it is pure speculation on my part. If we apply human/sapient standards of behavior to real predators on earth, some of their behavior might look downright evil at times, as well: toying with kills, appearing to take pleasure at the suffering of their prey. But that’s exactly what it is; application of human standards to a species that doesn’t recognize rights or morality simply because it’s incapable of doing so.

~snip~

Name a current, real predator that appears to be toying with it’s kill(and that is exactly what it is doing, not just applying human/sapient standards). Same goes for one that appears to take pleasure at the suffering of their prey, they do get pleasure from watching their prey suffer…so there’s absolutely nothing wrong with applying human standards to a species that you think might not recognize rights or morality as we see them, but they do on their own terms.

Cats are known for using live prey as a toy if they’re reasonably confident it won’t be able to escape. It’s questionable whether they actually recognise that their prey feels pain and fear, though, and cats are generally just as happy to play with any other moving toy as a wounded prey animal, so I don’t think sadism comes into it.

The Elder Dragons, though, show clear signs of being aware that their actions are causing suffering to others.

Zaklex.6308:

Name a current, real predator that appears to be toying with it’s kill(and that is exactly what it is doing, not just applying human/sapient standards). Same goes for one that appears to take pleasure at the suffering of their prey, they do get pleasure from watching their prey suffer…so there’s absolutely nothing wrong with applying human standards to a species that you think might not recognize rights or morality as we see them, but they do on their own terms.

Cats, particularly felis domesticus. Wolves, as well as domestic canines. Those are the two that come to mind, though I’m sure there are more. The assertion was made upthread as well, that predators don’t hunt themselves into starvation, which is also demonstrably untrue.

Is this the only way of looking at the elder dragons’ relationship to Tyria? No. Am I correct? I don’t know; you would have to ask Ree Soesbee about that, and even her word has not been the final one at times.

Another argument quite possibly in favor of the predator/prey theory as regards the elder dragon is what happens when predators are culled artificially, just as the elder dragons are being killed. There are always unforeseen and usually detrimental effects on an ecosystem when it is overrun with prey species, viz-a-vis the strange effect Mordremoth’s and Zhaitan’s deaths have had on Primordus’ destroyer army.

In the end, I hope y’all take this for just what it’s intended as: food for thought. This thread has been very entertaining and thought-stimulating for me. I like to think that somewhere in the alternate universe of Tyria, Durmand Priory scholars are having just such a philosophical debate.

gryph.8734:

Another argument quite possibly in favor of the predator/prey theory as regards the elder dragon is what happens when predators are culled artificially, just as the elder dragons are being killed. There are always unforeseen and usually detrimental effects on an ecosystem when it is overrun with prey species, viz-a-vis the strange effect Mordremoth’s and Zhaitan’s deaths have had on Primordus’ destroyer army.

Well, the effects on the Destroyers are more a case of removal of one predator leading to another predator moving in to the vacated ecological niche. The ‘overrunning of prey species’ would be more like the ley line events.

draxynnic.3719:

gryph.8734:

Another argument quite possibly in favor of the predator/prey theory as regards the elder dragon is what happens when predators are culled artificially, just as the elder dragons are being killed. There are always unforeseen and usually detrimental effects on an ecosystem when it is overrun with prey species, viz-a-vis the strange effect Mordremoth’s and Zhaitan’s deaths have had on Primordus’ destroyer army.

Well, the effects on the Destroyers are more a case of removal of one predator leading to another predator moving in to the vacated ecological niche. The ‘overrunning of prey species’ would be more like the ley line events.

Point taken, but the general argument regarding unforeseen consequences still stands.

I doubt Anet would make aurene so cute if she was evil!

Good way to hide evil is being being cute. I think (though this is not based on anything) is with perhaps other potential dragon getting active (okay Kralky’s minions are just gathering ley-line energy) that perhaps we may change out tune and come up with another way to combat dragons. I see Spencer coming into this