Guild Wars 2

Has anyone tried talked to the dragons and tries to come to an understanding with them? I mean they seem to be intelligent enough to be reasoned with so why can’t we talk to them rather than endlessly fight them.

I mean look at it from the dragons perspective, they woke up to find, in their home, invaders that are Asura have taken over their home. The Asura probably attacked first and the dragons defended themselves. Then the dwarves charge underground to attack the dragons once again in their home.

So it seems reasonable that the dragons think that we are in fact the evil ones who want to commit genocide on their race. So why can’t we talk to them and come to some friendly end?

Because there trying to steal me lucky charms XD

The Elder Dragons aren’t evil, they are a comparable to destructive forces of nature.
They awaken, consume and destroy. We only consider them evil because we are trying to preserve the world. They are no more evil than humans eating fruit, vegetables; organic life.

RISE UP MY FRUIT AND VEGETABLE BRETHREN! TODAY WE CAST OFF THE SHACKLES OF OUR OPPRESSORS, THE HUMANS! TODAY WE BRING THEM TO THEIR KNEES, AND WE, WE WILL STAND TRIUMPHANT!

Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?"
And the angel said unto me,
“These are the cries of the carrots,
the cries of the carrots.
You see, reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day
and to them it is the holocaust.”
And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat
like the tears of one millions terrified brothers
and roared,
“Hear me now,
I have seen the light,
they have a consciousness,
they have a life,
they have a soul.
kitten you!
let the rabbits wear glasses,
save our brothers…can I get an amen?
can I get a hallelujah? thank you, Jesus. -Tool, Disgustipated

As Alexander said… the dragons are not evil as such. But you cannot reason with them anymore than you can reason with an eathquake or a tidal wave etc.
Cats are not evil either… but if you are a mouse in a mouse nest you are not gonna try to reason with a cat.
Only the races we play as in Tyria are sentient and they, unlike the mouse have the ability to bite back, defend themselves against the greater forces.

Calling them evil implies that they are partial to our set of morals. As such dragons aren’t as much immoral as they are amoral

Would an ant consider us evil? Kind of the same line of thought.

To Elder Dragons, we are not “other sapient beings” and they are not destroying life. Zhaitan seems to believe that we are the evil ones, as shown through the risen. I believe it was the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan that stated that we were wanting to poison the land and that they (the risen) were trying to stop that poison, to remove it. That is to say, us removing Zhaitan’s taint, to them, was corrupting the land.

It’d be like saying humanity is evil because we build cities.

I wouldn’t agree with Alexander, given the fact that while, yes, they do hold sway over aspects of nature (or rather, their powers are reflecting aspects of nature), they likely could be conversed with (and, through their minions, are). Though I’d argue it’s more of a case of what Mardukar said: their views are so different from ours, they cannot be bound by our set of morals – no different than how we can be bound to the morals of a house cat should they exist.

I would like to point out, however, that the Elder Dragons instigated the assaults. The first thing was the Great Destroyer, who without reason other than to serve its master, began clearing the Depths of Tyria of all life. Svanir, compelled by Drakkar, went on a murderous spree. And after their awakening, the minions are bent only on expanding their forces and serving their dragon, and they do this by killing life that isn’t of the Elder Dragons.

But I wouldn’t call them evil. I’d put them as amoral – neither good nor evil. They just… are.

Zhaitan wants to rid the world of the taint of death which might make him the nicest of the Elder Dragons(Dragonic counterpart of Dhuum who wants eternal death), Kralkatorrik wants to become perfect and crystalize the world into perfection(Dragonic counterpart of Lyssa), Jormag wants nothing more than world domination(Dragonic counterpart of Grenth through his position as prince(later God) of ice and cold and his mother Dwayna(Goddess of Air which includes frost and cold), Primordus wants destruction if the his minions name is to be believed(Dragonic counterpart of Balthazar and his father(which Balthazar apparently killed)), Deep Sea Dragon’s motive is unknown(Dragonic counterpart of Abbadon, Lyssa and Kormir) and the 6th Dragon’s motive is also unknown(Dragonic counterpart of Melandru).
Each of the Elder Dragons’ motives clash which leads them to fight each other.

The Elder Dragons are hardly counterparts to the gods.

Though Jormag’s motive – if he has one – would be obtaining power, or alternatively creating a world where power reigns. Everything about him and his minions (more than just Sons of Svanir) is about seeking power and finding it through Jormag/Jormag granting power.

They have similar aspects even though they aren’t related: Zhaitan, Grenth(after becoming a god) and Dhuum represent Death, Jormag, Grenth(before becoming a God when he was prince of Ice) and Dwayna represent Ice, Cold and Wind, Kralkatorrik and Kormir represent Perfection, Primordus, Balthazar’s Father and Balthazar himself represent fire, Deepsea Dragon, Abbadon and Lyssa represent Water and finally judging from the inquest dungeon the 6th Elder Dragon, Pale Tree(practically the God of the Sylvari) and Melandru represent Earth and Nature.

Zhaitan is not death, but rather undeath.

Dwayna does not represent ice or cold. She is air, her winds have always been soothing/warm breezes. Not blizzard chills.

Kormir does not represent perfection – she is knowledge, spirit, truth, and order. Kralkatorrik doesn’t represent perfection either – he is crystal. His mentality is that of wanting perfection, theoretically.

We don’t know what Balthazar’s father represented.

The Pale Tree isn’t a god in neither truth nor view.

It seems to me that ultimately all the Elder Dragons desire destruction, but sort of in different flavours. We know more about some than others, but let’s say that Zhaitan wants to blight the whole world into undeath, destroying life (specifically). If Kralkatorrik desires perfection, it’s perfection through homogenisation: stop all change, cancel all variety, and turn everything into static crystal forever. The Dragonbrand suggests something of this. If the Sons of Svanir reflect Jormag’s views (not guaranteed), Jormag stands for a kind of extreme Darwinism: fight and struggle until only the strongest survive, as only the strongest deserve to survive, and destroy everything weaker in order to triumph.

For Primordus I feel like I have less to go on, but being a dragon of fire and with minions called Destroyers it seems to go more for rampant destruction, burning and smashing for the sake of it. Fire goes with fury and is extremely dangerous when out of control, right? As for the Deep Sea Dragon, we don’t have much to go on, and even less for a sixth dragon.

In regards to the OP, this is why we can’t reason with the dragons – they don’t really have motives which can be negotiated with. They’re forces of destruction, like a part of nature that hates us. So, they’re not evil as such, but they’re definitely bad for all of us (hence the theme in the game of uniting diverse peoples).

(It’s actually been bothering me in the personal story how much people imply more complex or subtle motives for Zhaitan, or how he has servants who infiltrate or deceive for him. It all seems far too subtle for an Elder Dragon as I interpreted them – though I suppose existing undead like liches might approve of the ‘blight the world’ agenda for their own reasons and support it).

I actually made a topic a while back saying the same thing. I’m not sure anyone has even tried reasoning with the dragons.

I get the idea that they’re supposed to be so different from us, so much more powerful and with such different ideas and existances that there isn’t really any common ground to start from, but I still think it would be worth looking into it. I just don’t like the idea that our first reaction to any kind of threat or opposition is “Hey lets kill it!”.

Back at the start of GW1 people (both in Tyria and in RL) would probably have said the same about humans and the charr and look how that worked out. Fighting each other to the death almost lead to both sides losing Ascalon completely, whereas working out a treaty seems to be working well.

It might be harder to find a way to compromise with the dragons but I don’t think we should write it off completely when we don’t even really know that much about them.

Who knows, if they tried maybe the dragons would take us more seriously now that we have slain one of them. Then again it could make it impossible for us to treat with them, seeing as they may be pissed with us doing Zhaitan in. We got no clue.

Curuniel.4830:

It seems to me that ultimately all the Elder Dragons desire destruction, but sort of in different flavours.

-snip rest-

There’s an old thread somewhere, forgot thread title though, where I made a post examining the (possible) personalities of the Elder Dragons – or specifically, the fact that they all seem to hold one ultimate desire.

Risen constantly talk about life and truth through Zhaitan, about how Zhaitan gives immortality.

From Edge of Destiny, we somewhat learn that Kralkatorrik seems to seek perfection – that is to say, he wants to obtain everything, become everything, and destroy whatever he cannot obtain in doing so. Perfection by definition is either “without flaws” or “containing everything” – an alternative form to view Kralkatorrik would be that he’s the ultimate personification of greed, though I do hope Anet stays away from making each Elder Dragon one of the deadly seven sins.

Primordus, based on the actions of his minions and the fact he doesn’t corrupt living beings, seems to want genocide of all organisms.

Jormag, as you put it, seems to want the ultimate form of Darwinism – or, perhaps, just simply is seeking to become the strongest being, and have the strongest follow him.

DSD and the sixth ED are unknown at this point, but if my hypothesis on the krait’s faith being tied to the DSD is true, then the DSD may want an alternative form of Darwinism – life that lives in multiple environments (capable of living both above and below water, for instance); an alternative would be going to what the depths is described as – unspeakable horrors, more or less, indicating the DSD may want to bring madness, nightmare, insanity.

And for the sixth, all we have is that Zone Green, which might be tied to the sixth, has two elements: nature, and poison. This can go two ways – wanting to strangle all life, to suffocate it, or to bring forth the natural state of things. If the hypothesis that the Summoned Husks – and in turn Nightmare Court (but not Pale Tree/sylvari/DoD) is tied to the sixth, then it would follow this mentality – the sixth wants sadism, to torture all life – a slow means of suffocating it.

Hadn’t thought about Kralkatorrik as a greed/avarice/acquisition figure, but it makes sense – I don’t think they need to go down the Seven Deadly Sins route either, but that would make for another kind of destructive drive. Just as dangerous to everyone else, really, too.

I like those ideas for the last two – the DSD as madness would link in nicely to Lovecraft tropes, hehe, and I think it’s reasonable to assume we’ll get some Cthulhu vibes from the DSD stuff if and when it’s introduced. And the Nightmare Court are too fascinating not to link into their mentality (even, as you say, without accepting any of the going theories about the Pale Tree). Sadism and causing pain for pain’s sake is another different kind of drive for total destruction. This way all the dragons have different drives, but the same ultimate result.

I want to point out that the Son’s of Svanir’s strive for strength and power may also be a remnant of the norn’s basic need to prove themselves to others through feats and prowess. And this basic part of the norn outlook on life is becoming corrupted through the worship of the dragon slowly. Not to say it’s not possible, just that there are other possibilities.

Jormag’s stated by the Pact (a charr member of Whispers) to first give promises of power before corrupting – the only Elder Dragon that convinces people to join it, rather than corrupting to enslave. At least 2 different skill challenges with Frost Portals have icebrood whispering about power – both promises of power or challenges of power. One, found in Frostgorge Sound, specifically Drakkar Spurs, says to the player something along the lines of “continue getting stronger, and you shall become worthy of Jormag’s gift” – the icebrood which come from these are icebrood elementals (in Lornar’s Pass) and icebrood quaggan/colossi (Frostgorge).

It’s not just the Sons of Svanir who are about strength and power, but everything about Jormag.

Jormag has 3 core elements to him: Ice, Mind, and Power.

His corruption takes the form of ice. He corrupts through the mind. And he promises power, and all his icebrood seek power or view having power as having worth.

There need not be a “good” and “evil” side to have conflict. You don’t have to consider a lion evil for trying to kill you for his supper, but that doesn’t mean you should just lay down and let him. Same applies to dragons and karka.

It would be nice if these conflicts could be resolved peaceably, but sometimes, this simply isn’t an option.

Jure Simich.6154:

There need not be a “good” and “evil” side to have conflict. You don’t have to consider a lion evil for trying to kill you for his supper, but that doesn’t mean you should just lay down and let him. Same applies to dragons and karka.

It would be nice if these conflicts could be resolved peaceably, but sometimes, this simply isn’t an option.

Correct. Also, dragons are like natural disasters and they arent the intelligent ones. They just corrupt and want to get their way, just like the rest of us. Their champions do the thinking.

The Elder Dragons are shown to have emotions and thoughts too.

Zhaitan roars in either anger or fear a few times within the game as we are taking out key strategic positions. Our characters like to view it as fear, but we have no way of really knowing.

Perhaps it’s both. Like giving huamn emotions to forces of nature. But in this case, it’s real. the force is actually a being. so, while the dragons may have their own personalities, those personalities may have no interest or no ability to reason with us. Like us and bugs.

Due to what Edge Of Destiny book said, information provided by dragon Glint herself, elder dragons were always powerful and big and they enjoyed what they were too much. They feasted on everything and when there was nothing left – they became angry and hungry and eventually felt asleep.
After a long long time they happen to awake, helped by their champions ( which are the living-parts of dragons’ powers ), and yet they are much more hungry, they are much more furious and they have a lot things to eat

Well, Glint didn’t specify any greater plan of the Elder Dragons and since she could read their minds – there shouldn’t be any plan, otherwise Glint would know and shared it with Eir

When running around the Norn Starting Region you will meet a Son of Svian(or whatever they are called) anyways when you ask him why he is evil he responds that good and evil are merely illusions.

He says the Dragon is the ultimate predator and that is all they are, predators.

So to sum things up the Dragons are simply doing what they do because it is in their nature.

Yeah, I agree with Pomar. I’d read Edge of Destiny also and that’s exactly what Glint said (Glint is supposed to be the champion for Kralkatorrik and it can some sort of read the minds of the elder dragons, having been thru a few hibernating and awakening of the elder dragons). The elder dragons are basically animals with extremely great magical power and they basically ‘eats’ all living things they can find, other than other elder dragons I supposed, and when there’s nothing left to eat, they go to sleep, hibernate. Many thousand years later when they go hungry again and which by then nature would have recovered and new ‘food’ starts sprouting in Tyria, they elder dragons wake up and start their feast again. They are not evil, just hungry.

And it’s a game. People like some action and epic battles in games. There aren’t many debate games and I don’t see “guild discussion 2” coming

Too bad our characters cant side with an elder dragon. My norn guardian sure would like to join Jormags forces.

Well you could join the Sons of Svanir and go around mass murdering people… But that doesn’t really sound like a good time to me.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Primordus, based on the actions of his minions and the fact he doesn’t corrupt living beings, seems to want genocide of all organisms.

Fire consumes, that’s what it does. It spreads an’ destroys everything in it’s way … not ‘cause fire is evil, but because that’s its nature.

I just want my own dragonheart dragon

Considering the amount of people who use the excuse ‘Charrs were just taking back their homeland so the searing wasn’t evil’ I hope that we can join a Dragon’s side and help them just take back their homelands.

Levetty.1279:

Considering the amount of people who use the excuse ‘Charrs were just taking back their homeland so the searing wasn’t evil’ I hope that we can join a Dragon’s side and help them just take back their homelands.

good idea, let’s give them ascalon, the immortal army with a hatred of all life that isn’t a foefire ghost will LOVE that ;P

(seriously, why do the humans still want ascalon? it’s not been theirs for 250 years, anyone who has a legitemate claim is LONG dead, and is filled with branded and unkillable ghosts and the humans are also fighting pirates, bandits, destroyers, centaur (who are annoyed that the humans used magic to forcefully take their lands… sound familiar?), risen remnants, and would have to deal with the charr renegades. it would be like britain being pissy that america isn’t british owned if america was also the middle of an alien invasion and zombie apocalypse… whilst in a war with nearly every other country on earth… and then kicking out the group of people who have been studying how to kill the aliens and zombies)

skom.9378:

I just want my own dragonheart dragon

I would also love to see some corrupted ‘dragonlings’, that is, corrupted against the elder dragons. I would pay good money to unlock something similar to these as a playable race!