Guild Wars 2

Charr had superior technology, numbers, muscle power, and focus. The legions were more united than ever(besides flame legion, but who cares about them?) and Kryta was slowly being overrun by centaurs. Ebonhawke was going to fall any day. Yes, branded began to attack and ghosts were still there, but Rytlock found Ruriks sword and could have forced the Priory to simply help find the heir to the throne, and the brand pretty much stayed put, so it was more of a travel inconvenience. So why did they accept the ceasefire, and how likely is it they will abide by it for much longer?

1) The brand’s still expanding.

2) I don’t think the legions could “force” the Priory to do anything.

3) The charr are wanting cooperation with the world powers too.

4) Ebonhawke was actually reinforced the most in the past five years for the first time in a lont time. Even with Kryta being pushed, Ebonhawke still had plenty of supplies coming in. It stood so long that the charr literally stopped caring about taking it. For generations, the charr treated Ebonhawke not as a threat to overtake, but as target practice.

5) While the legions are united, the unification is still tenious at best, and that unification comes with an agreement in views of Smodur and Malice (Iron and Ash Legion Imperators) – and among those shared views is becoming allies with the humans to take down the threat of all Elder Dragons – not just the Dragonbrand (that’s just the closest threat, but they realize that all EDs are a big threat that the charr cannot tackle alone, with having 5 enemies surrounding them on all sides (enemies being: ghosts, Flame, Branded, ogres, and humans)). The Blood Legion’s Imperator is considered a “wild card” and is only in agreement with the other two just so he’s not facing 3 Legions alone (Iron and Ash combined, and Flame on the side).

It’s very likely they’ll go through with it til the end – at least for Iron and Ash Legions. Blood Legion is, as said, considered a wild card and it’s unknown what Bangar’s wanting to do. Drax has theorized that he may be behind the Renegade faction as well (which wouldn’t surprise me, given the large numbers of primarily fighters and lack of engineers and whatnot among the Renegades).

On top of what Konig listed, A-Net describes Smodir as “Forward thinking”, plus the humans had something the charr wanted. The Claw of Khanir.

The charr actually have more issues in their borders than humanity does, which is considerable.

Branded, Renegades, Separatists, Flame Legion, the Ascalonian Ghosts… Ascalon is pretty much a war zone.

@Konig while possible, I don’t think they will take that route becase playable characters can be members of that legion. If suddenly Blood Legion is at war with Iron and Ash, it divides the playable characters on the same race. Playable characters tend for the same objetive so the only solution would be to replace the imperator with a new one and add the old one to the list of charr badies so I think at the end he will accept the treaty with time.

Btw are there female Renegades? I don’t remember right now. I’m not sure where, I think it was some heart NPC or something, that hinted to the Flame Legion instigating the renegades. Or maybe is that they count as kill Flame Legion in the achievement pannel, I can’t test that as mine is currently maxed.

jmatb.6307:

Branded, Renegades, Separatists, Flame Legion, the Ascalonian Ghosts… Ascalon is pretty much a war zone.

Just wanting to note that the Renegades and Separatists only came about after the cease fire. Though both factions are significantly smaller and less of a threat than either side during the war – even though they’re more vocal and proactive in attacks. Though you forgot ogres coming from the Blazeridge (though they haven’t had big leeway until the ceasefire, they were a threat there nonetheless).

Lokheit.7943:

@Konig while possible, I don’t think they will take that route becase playable characters can be members of that legion. If suddenly Blood Legion is at war with Iron and Ash, it divides the playable characters on the same race. Playable characters tend for the same objetive so the only solution would be to replace the imperator with a new one and add the old one to the list of charr badies so I think at the end he will accept the treaty with time.

If Bangar decides to go and betray Malice and Smodur, that doesn’t in any way demand that all Blood Legion will become enemies. More likely, there’d be a division if it ever became open, so I suspect that Bangar will act in a Caudecus manner – he’d sow seeds of dissent against the peace, while openly being a non-hostile party. Whether or not in the end he agrees or disagrees with the treaty. And the confronting with him will be with him alone, and not the Blood Legion – well not alone, but you get the idea.

Lokheit.7943:

Btw are there female Renegades? I don’t remember right now. I’m not sure where, I think it was some heart NPC or something, that hinted to the Flame Legion instigating the renegades. Or maybe is that they count as kill Flame Legion in the achievement pannel, I can’t test that as mine is currently maxed.

Not sure if there are or aren’t. Certainly none that stand out. But they don’t seem to be sexist like the Flame Legion.

Originally it felt like Flame Legion actions to me too, as it would fit their objectives well by giving the legions another enemy within their borders, distracting them – for the same reason the Flame Legion decide to pester the PC in the Iron Legion storyline, to keep an active other threat on the three Legions. However, ever since drax mentioned the possibility, I have realized that there’s so little similarities between Flame Legion and Renegades, while plenty more between Blood Legion and Renegades. I think Ajax was even Blood Legion before becoming a Renegade too.

In addition to all the points above, the OP assumes that the charr want to conquer the rest of the world (or at least kill all the humans!), and are being restrained somehow. The thing is, they’re smart enough and experienced enough by now to know that running an empire is a lot of work – and it seems like the charr actually hold a very large area of land. Unlike, say, the norn, the charr have a centralised government and chain of command, so all that land and all the people in it have to administered.

You only have to look at the history of the Roman Empire, from which charr civilisation draws in certain elements, to see the perils of expanding beyond what one can effectively manage. I’ve said before that Smodur is in an analogous political situation to the Emperor Augustus; like Augustus, it might make sense for him to cease his people’s expansion and solidify what they currently hold instead.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1) The brand’s still expanding.

2) I don’t think the legions could “force” the Priory to do anything.

3) The charr are wanting cooperation with the world powers too.

4) Ebonhawke was actually reinforced the most in the past five years for the first time in a lont time. Even with Kryta being pushed, Ebonhawke still had plenty of supplies coming in. It stood so long that the charr literally stopped caring about taking it. For generations, the charr treated Ebonhawke not as a threat to overtake, but as target practice.

5) While the legions are united, the unification is still tenious at best, and that unification comes with an agreement in views of Smodur and Malice (Iron and Ash Legion Imperators) – and among those shared views is becoming allies with the humans to take down the threat of all Elder Dragons – not just the Dragonbrand (that’s just the closest threat, but they realize that all EDs are a big threat that the charr cannot tackle alone, with having 5 enemies surrounding them on all sides (enemies being: ghosts, Flame, Branded, ogres, and humans)). The Blood Legion’s Imperator is considered a “wild card” and is only in agreement with the other two just so he’s not facing 3 Legions alone (Iron and Ash combined, and Flame on the side).

It’s very likely they’ll go through with it til the end – at least for Iron and Ash Legions. Blood Legion is, as said, considered a wild card and it’s unknown what Bangar’s wanting to do. Drax has theorized that he may be behind the Renegade faction as well (which wouldn’t surprise me, given the large numbers of primarily fighters and lack of engineers and whatnot among the Renegades).

1. Never heard of the brand expanding anywhere in the game.

2. Invade Lormar’s Pass and threaten to destroy the HQ

3. They did. Just not with humans. They were not at war with asura, nor was that ever an issue. Sylvari were simply looked down on, and were never going to make war with a clearly superior army. Norn were friendly with them.

4. I meant when the ceasefire was called for.

5. Iron+Ash=Winning. Blood really is just like the Vigil, its nice for recruits and was good seperate, but not entirely needed when combined.

You do realize that the Charr would have to march through the Shiverpeaks, right? If we’re to assume the only viable paths would be the roads, they’d be passing through: Diessa Plateau, Wayfarer Foothills, and Snowden Drfts, before even getting into Lornar, right? The Priory aren’t that stupid and while there is bickering between the orders, even before the Pact, I doubt the orders would throw the other under the bus. I have no evidence to prove that last bit, though.

The norn and charr may be friendly with each other, but I don’t think anyone would take kindly to marching an invasion force through their territory. The Lionguard is also stationed in all three areas before then too. While they may be at war with humans, their actions affect the whole.

If worse comes to worst, the charr invade norn, though I doubt it, since they were allowed to pass through shiver peaks in the past, and its not really a nation, since all they do is claim hunting grounds. Simply avoid the homesteads and its wildland. And the other orders were constantly bickering and sometimes hated each other, so there’s that.

Beetle.2476:

1. Never heard of the brand expanding anywhere in the game.

2. Invade Lormar’s Pass and threaten to destroy the HQ

3. They did. Just not with humans. They were not at war with asura, nor was that ever an issue. Sylvari were simply looked down on, and were never going to make war with a clearly superior army. Norn were friendly with them.

4. I meant when the ceasefire was called for.

5. Iron+Ash=Winning. Blood really is just like the Vigil, its nice for recruits and was good seperate, but not entirely needed when combined.

1. There’s comments of the Brand – and the Branded – expanding past the current points in both Iron Marches and Fields of Ruin, iirc. It’s all in dialogue boxes – nothing spoken. I am pretty sure one case is a heart NPC who, of course, doesn’t mention it after completing the heart like 95% other heart NPCs.

2. Gotta get through norn; the mountains aren’t suitable for tanks or most siege weaponry so the charr are down on their best firepower; they’d be kitten off 4 other major races on the way, as well as at least three of the continent’s strongest powers (Priory, Whispers, and Vigil); let’s not forget the other forces along the way (dredge, Sons of Svanir, and jotun); oh, and the Priory has ancient and powerful magic at their disposal for defense. Also, the charr have enough issues that they couldn’t start yet another war. Hell, this is the entire kittening reason why they’re making peace with humans – 5 enemies are too many for them, do you really think they’d make a sixth enemy just for the mere hypothetical chance of removing one enemy? No, they’d do what they’re already doing and finding out a way to remove the ghosts on their own.

3. The norn and charr were initially hostile to each other. They became buddies over seeing each others’ mutual strengths and prowess in battle. Why can’t the same happen with humans? The charr only hate humans because they took their land (Ascalon). Now that Ascalon is theirs again, they don’t have reason to hate humans except generations of hatred not yet dissipated.

Besides, that doesn’t change the fact that humans are still a strong power in Tyria, and again, the charr are looking for allies with strong powers to combat the Elder Dragons and their other many problems. The humans are the easiest of their problems to compromise with.

4. Like I said. When the ceasefire was called in, Ebonhawke has been stronger for five years than they have been in decades if not centuries. Yet they held out when they were weaker. With them being stronger, they’d last longer. They weren’t on the brink of defeat like you seem to think.

5. … No, not really. They’re not like the Vigil at all, to be honest. Yes, both the Vigil and Blood are “straightforward militant fighters” – but the Vigil are also charity, and working to unite with others. Blood hold no charity, they don’t aid others except when commanded by superiors – and said superiors only act in the Blood’s interests.

But I fail to see what that has to do with the fact that the legions aren’t as united as you first claimed.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Beetle.2476:

1. Never heard of the brand expanding anywhere in the game.

2. Invade Lormar’s Pass and threaten to destroy the HQ

3. They did. Just not with humans. They were not at war with asura, nor was that ever an issue. Sylvari were simply looked down on, and were never going to make war with a clearly superior army. Norn were friendly with them.

4. I meant when the ceasefire was called for.

5. Iron+Ash=Winning. Blood really is just like the Vigil, its nice for recruits and was good seperate, but not entirely needed when combined.

1. There’s comments of the Brand – and the Branded – expanding past the current points in both Iron Marches and Fields of Ruin, iirc. It’s all in dialogue boxes – nothing spoken. I am pretty sure one case is a heart NPC who, of course, doesn’t mention it after completing the heart like 95% other heart NPCs.

2. Gotta get through norn; the mountains aren’t suitable for tanks or most siege weaponry so the charr are down on their best firepower; they’d be kitten off 4 other major races on the way, as well as at least three of the continent’s strongest powers (Priory, Whispers, and Vigil); let’s not forget the other forces along the way (dredge, Sons of Svanir, and jotun); oh, and the Priory has ancient and powerful magic at their disposal for defense. Also, the charr have enough issues that they couldn’t start yet another war. Hell, this is the entire kittening reason why they’re making peace with humans – 5 enemies are too many for them, do you really think they’d make a sixth enemy just for the mere hypothetical chance of removing one enemy? No, they’d do what they’re already doing and finding out a way to remove the ghosts on their own.

3. The norn and charr were initially hostile to each other. They became buddies over seeing each others’ mutual strengths and prowess in battle. Why can’t the same happen with humans? The charr only hate humans because they took their land (Ascalon). Now that Ascalon is theirs again, they don’t have reason to hate humans except generations of hatred not yet dissipated.

Besides, that doesn’t change the fact that humans are still a strong power in Tyria, and again, the charr are looking for allies with strong powers to combat the Elder Dragons and their other many problems. The humans are the easiest of their problems to compromise with.

4. Like I said. When the ceasefire was called in, Ebonhawke has been stronger for five years than they have been in decades if not centuries. Yet they held out when they were weaker. With them being stronger, they’d last longer. They weren’t on the brink of defeat like you seem to think.

5. … No, not really. They’re not like the Vigil at all, to be honest. Yes, both the Vigil and Blood are “straightforward militant fighters” – but the Vigil are also charity, and working to unite with others. Blood hold no charity, they don’t aid others except when commanded by superiors – and said superiors only act in the Blood’s interests.

But I fail to see what that has to do with the fact that the legions aren’t as united as you first claimed.

Read my last post for most of these.

The ash and iron are pretty much solid. Blood is the only unstable nation in the group, and all they have is numbers and brute strengh.

Given how the Renegades come from all three legions, I wouldn’t be so sure about that.

Also, your last post doesn’t respond to my response about points 1, 3, or 4.

A few comments:

On Bangar going full Renegede: My prediction regarding that scenario partially revolves around the fact that we have a potential candidate for a replacement that all charr PCs already have a connection to, in the form of Rytlock. If that goes down, it’s probably going to be less Blood versus Ash and Iron, and more the pro-peace Blood faction under Rytlock versus the renegede faction under Bangar.

On female Renegedes: There are some. I think a lot of the renegede engineers in Fields of Ruin use female charr models and voices, for instance.

Regarding the charr attacking the Priory: Besides the logistics issues, it’s a good way to risk pulling the asura and/or sylvari out of their neutrality. The orders had a tendency to bicker before the formation of the Pact, so the Vigil may not care – but the Order of Whispers would probably see the issues with the charr invading the Priory and do something to stop it.

Read the book Ghosts of Ascalon.

Charr are actually not doing as good as you think and needed the Claw of Khanir. If they did not get that claw, the charr society would have fallen apart due to fighting within the legions.

Katostrophe.3274:

Read the book Ghosts of Ascalon.

Charr are actually not doing as good as you think and needed the Claw of Khanir. If they did not get that claw, the charr society would have fallen apart due to fighting within the legions.

That’s Claw of the Khan-Ur. A Khan-Ur a leader who can control all the legions, standing above the imperator.

Also, there are charr in the Priory. If those charr scholars wanted to investigate possible ways to end the Foefire, they could. At the same time, if the Legions put pressure on the Priory to do something which they didn’t want to do, there would be internal strife as people had to choose between their order (and their own personal research interests, which they presumably feel strongly about) and their legion/warband. I know charr are meant to always choose the warband, but that kind of tension is the last thing the High Legions need now.

The charr are pretty direct and hands-on, but they’re not just brutes. The Priory is useful to them as an independent group, and they are capable of asking for research rather than immediately resorting to siege and coercion.

The Charr agreed to the ceasfire because they already had enough problems to deal with. The siege of Ebonhawke was already on the backburner for them. They literally used the city as a proving ground to test out new siege weapons and other ideas. Meanwhile, the entire rest of Ascalon was a constant warzone. Ghosts, Flame Legion, Branded, etc, etc. Despite the siege, the areas around Ebonhawke were the most stable and predictable in Ascalon. That’s changed ever since the ogres moved in due to the ceasefire, but now they have the Ebon Vanguard to help with that, so it balances out. The ceasefire let them redirect resources to more important areas, and to be honest I think even the Charr had grown tired of their feud with the Ascalonians. They pretty much won the war when Ascalon City fell. Besieging Ebonhawke was pretty much just rubbing it in at that point.

As for Kryta, it’s too far away for the Charr to care, and the centaurs keep them in check anyway. The Asura gate could have escalated things, but the ceasefire occurred shortly thereafter, so we’ll never know how that could have panned out. As for the Priory, not even the most aggressive Charr are blind enough to not see the massive backlash they would get from the other races for roughhousing a multicultural organization dedicated to knowledge and learning, especially when they could just go there and do the research themselves. That would be like a nation in the real world forcing Google to search for them because they couldn’t be bothered to type it in themselves.

In short, the Charr benefited too much from the ceasefire. They would have been stupid to refuse. It shut the Ascalonians up, made the Krytans and other races happy, and it let them focus on other things. A complete win-win situation for the Charr.

Curuniel.4830:

Also, there are charr in the Priory. If those charr scholars wanted to investigate possible ways to end the Foefire, they could. At the same time, if the Legions put pressure on the Priory to do something which they didn’t want to do, there would be internal strife as people had to choose between their order (and their own personal research interests, which they presumably feel strongly about) and their legion/warband. I know charr are meant to always choose the warband, but that kind of tension is the last thing the High Legions need now.

The charr are pretty direct and hands-on, but they’re not just brutes. The Priory is useful to them as an independent group, and they are capable of asking for research rather than immediately resorting to siege and coercion.

Indeed. The charr may be expected to put the interests of the Legion above their own and any other loyalty, but I think there are examples of charr that have resettled outside of Ascalon that don’t (although they rarely advertise that fact, and not every charr outside of Ascalon will be) and on top of that, a good leader probably recognises that however much your underlings are supposed to choose the collective interest over their own, it’s best not to put it to the test unless you really need to.

Noone told Ebonhawke is likely to fall in any moment.

Some NPCs told that ‘probably we won’t be able to hold out forever’. That’s not the same.

There’s also the element that ‘probably’ isn’t the same as ‘definitely’. The charr-human war was marked by occasions of one side or the other throwing some gamebreaker that turned the tables, or at least made victory more expensive than expected. Now, admittedly what we can see indicates that it was likely to be the charr who threw the next one (in the form of being a few decades or at most centuries away from modern technology that would render a stationary fortress pretty much obsolete) but the charr leaders have to have had the concern that Ebonhawke could be readying to throw out a gamebreaker at any moment.

Ebonhawke and Divinity’s Reach are linked via Asuran Gate now. No matter how long the Charr would lay siege Ebonhawke would have unlimited food and supplies. Alternatively if the Charr marched all the way to Kryta the Krytans would flood out of Ebonhawke’s gate, tear down the Black Citadel, and be back in time to meet the invasion.

A protected supply line doesn’t necessarily mean you can hold out indefinitely, The charr could have held out the hope that the centaurs would disrupt the flow of supplies through the gate sufficiently for Ebonhawke to starve (Kryta’s ability to feed itself was starting to look a bit shaky at the start of the game, IIRC). More significantly, a well-supplied fortification can still fall if the enemy breaks the fortifications down, and at their current rate of development the charr were probably only centuries or decades from rendering Ebonhawke’s wall obsolete entirely.

draxynnic.3719:

A protected supply line doesn’t necessarily mean you can hold out indefinitely, The charr could have held out the hope that the centaurs would disrupt the flow of supplies through the gate sufficiently for Ebonhawke to starve (Kryta’s ability to feed itself was starting to look a bit shaky at the start of the game, IIRC). More significantly, a well-supplied fortification can still fall if the enemy breaks the fortifications down, and at their current rate of development the charr were probably only centuries or decades from rendering Ebonhawke’s wall obsolete entirely.

Century or even decade long sieges aren’t so effective or cost effective. Why spend so many resources, lives, and time to take down one fortress? It’s a lot easier to handle an enemy by diplomacy than trying to dfeat them with brute force which has not proved effective for awhile. While the charr love brute force it’s has shown that it rarely works. They only managed to defeat Ascalon by using a magic nuke. The humans of Ascalon have proven multiple times that they are masters of architecture and defensive construction.

True, and in fact I was going to point that out myself but I got distracted mid-post and forgot.

The general gist is that if the charr had kept going, they probably would have won in the end, and could have chosen to push on with that basis – but they gain more and at less risk by making peace.

exelion.2369:

They only managed to defeat Ascalon by using a magic nuke.

^This

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

exelion.2369:

They only managed to defeat Ascalon by using a magic nuke.

^This

Many people seem to either not know this or forget it. We should also note that many ruins still exist and there are sizable segments of the Great Northern Wall left. Of all the humans I think that they show the tenacity of humans more so than the others. Even in death they still fight. That’s why I put my signature as “Don’t mess with Ascalon”!

It should be further noted that the Great Northern Wall was even bigger right after the Searing too, compared to GW2’s time, as the charr have been continuously demolishing it (often harassed by ghosts in the process).

However, I wouldn’t put the ghosts there nowadays as part of human tenacity. The Foefire altered their minds, and there’s really only one ghost who’s broken free of the Foefire’s influence (Bria), and one other (Adelbern) who was spared of its mind altering effects (though Kasha may have also broken free of the influence given her personality). Ascalonian ghosts are not an effect of human tenacity, but of ancient magic cursing their souls.

Okay, point taken. Reading the wiki about the charr and Ascalon isn’t the same thing as actual lore…

I like to look at it simply and say “for once, each race is not being border line kitten #8221; and thus joined forces.

Basically, the war ended because Ash Legion saw the writing on the wall that the dragons were going to be a much bigger threat than the humans. In the face of the dragons, Iron acknowledged that Ash’s diplomacy would likely put the charr on a better threat trajectory. Plus, the Charr control the vast majority of Ascalon now. They’ve pretty much gotten what they wanted out of the war.

Beetle.2476:

1. Never heard of the brand expanding anywhere in the game.

Konig Des Todes is correct, there’s plenty of dialogue box references to the brand expanding. That’s why the charr have so many warbands assigned to the perimeter.

The Foefire ghosts don’t really count because of special circumstances, but if you discount all ghosts produced through some sort of special circumstance, there are still quite a lot more humans coming back as ghosts than any other race. In fact, offhand I can only think of one case where there’s a ghost who might be nonhuman without there being some special circumstance involved, while human ghosts are a dime a dozen in some places.

Charr ghosts in The Flight North (GW1 BMP), and I remember one case of a charr ghost in GW2, somewhere in Ascalon though I can’t remember where, that doesn’t realize he’s a ghost (much like many human ghosts). Dwarven ghosts throughout the Depths of Tyria. Jotun ghosts in various places (Arah, certain citadels – not counting Elder Thruln). Asura ghosts in some of their labs (albeit one case, Oola, probably counts as a “special case”).

The impression I had of the charr ghosts was that they weren’t really ghosts, but manifestations of the memories of the Ascalonian ghosts that were there. The Ascalonians had to relive their failure until Gwen put it right – the charr involved probably went on and died somewhere else. Oola had specifically tied herself to the golem, so she’s definitely a special case. I don’t recall seeing any of the other ghosts you mention – either asura ghosts in labs or the charr ghost who doesn’t know he’s dead.

Dwarves I’ll accept. Jotun, I’m less sure of – most of them seem to be guarding a place of power of some form, but I’ll concede that the preserved footprint ghosts do seem to be more along the lines of a general haunting. Neither of those are major races in the present day, though.

The only charr ghosts I can remember that fit Konig’s description are the displaced spirits in Hellion Forest. I invite him to correct me if I’m wrong, but IF those are what he’s talking about, they’re a highly atypical circumstance- they aren’t really dead, but a necromancer’s minions are possessing their bodies, and they can take their bodies back with a little help. I do have it second-hand that the boss in the Flame Temple Tombs is a ghost, but I haven’t been myself.

The non-human ghosts that spring easily to my mind are the ghost pirates, specifically the ones in Fawcett’s Bounty- they come in human, norn, charr, and asura, and there’s no reason to believe their circumstances are any more special than most. Personally, I don’t believe that it’s a matter of humans being any more likely, able, and/or willing to become ghosts, but rather that we see more human ghosts because humans have lived and died in those places for a thousand or more years, whereas charr, asura, norn, and sylvari have only inhabited the explorable areas of GW2 for 255ish, 247, 160, and 23 years. After all, most of the human ghosts are from before GW1. Not counting the Foefire ghosts, probably close to half of the named ones are from Mad King Thorn’s reign, perhaps another third are from the admittedly kitten haunting of Hidden Lake, and the rest are mostly a scattered handful of Ascalonians who died before the Foefire, or ghost pirates in one of the jumping puzzles. Throw in Anton, Reza, and Malchor, and I think you have a fairly complete list.

As for the non-named ones, you have a more disproportionate case… though in that case I would say less “humans are tenacious” and more “humans have a longer history of being cursed with spectral undeath”… which, in turn, goes back to the length of their history in the area.

Nah, it wasn’t those. Those ghosts know that they’re displaced spirits and outright ask you to bring them to their body and then wake them up. The ghost I’m trying to remember was like the human ghosts in Aurora Remains – where they don’t even know that they’re dead.