Guild Wars 2

Zhaitan is dead, they don’t have anyone to serve anymore. Also why did the Risen priests think Zhaitan is alive?

Well, the clear answer is that they don’t know that Zhaitan’s dead. Whatever the nature of the link between minions and dragon was, it was apparently such that the servants can’t tell it was severed.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Well, the clear answer is that they don’t know that Zhaitan’s dead. Whatever the nature of the link between minions and dragon was, it was apparently such that the servants can’t tell it was severed.

Nearly every time a champion dies, Zhaitan could feel it, even when it was thousands miles away, like Captain Whitning.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Well, the clear answer is that they don’t know that Zhaitan’s dead. Whatever the nature of the link between minions and dragon was, it was apparently such that the servants can’t tell it was severed.

Nearly every time a champion dies, Zhaitan could feel it, even when it was thousands miles away, like Captain Whitning.

Maybe it doesn’t work the other way around? Sure, Zhaitan might feel a champion going down but is there evidence that they sense Zhaitan’s intentions independently of Zhaitan’s will?

Leo G.4501:

Maybe it doesn’t work the other way around? Sure, Zhaitan might feel a champion going down but is there evidence that they sense Zhaitan’s intentions independently of Zhaitan’s will?

I don’t see how could such a massive army follow its order if they couldn’t even feel Zhaitan’s existence through the connection. At least the champions much have a connection with it to spread the will.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Leo G.4501:

Maybe it doesn’t work the other way around? Sure, Zhaitan might feel a champion going down but is there evidence that they sense Zhaitan’s intentions independently of Zhaitan’s will?

I don’t see how could such a massive army follow its order if they couldn’t even feel Zhaitan’s existence through the connection. At least the champions much have a connection with it to spread the will.

The issue is we don’t know how much micromanaging Zhaitan actually did. In my time on this forum I’ve heard theories ranging from a massive hive mind personally directing every corrupted being to a beast who just lounges and eats with no thought for tactics or what’s going on beyond its borders, leaving such things to its generals. Either extreme has as much proof as the other, and none of the middle ground stands out as being particularly more likely either. Until we have more evidence to work off- hopefully with Mordremoth, but possibly still years in the future- the extent and nature of the mental connection is going to come down to which pet theory you decide to champion. It seems like you’ve made up your mind that the dragon champions received frequent updates on what Zhaitan wanted, and yes, in that case it’s a little baffling they don’t notice the absence. My best suggestion from that point of view is to assume that they’re instructed/‘programmed’ to follow standing orders until new ones override them, however long that might be.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

The issue is we don’t know how much micromanaging Zhaitan actually did. In my time on this forum I’ve heard theories ranging from a massive hive mind personally directing every corrupted being to a beast who just lounges and eats with no thought for tactics or what’s going on beyond its borders, leaving such things to its generals. Either extreme has as much proof as the other, and none of the middle ground stands out as being particularly more likely either. Until we have more evidence to work off- hopefully with Mordremoth, but possibly still years in the future- the extent and nature of the mental connection is going to come down to which pet theory you decide to champion. It seems like you’ve made up your mind that the dragon champions received frequent updates on what Zhaitan wanted, and yes, in that case it’s a little baffling they don’t notice the absence. My best suggestion from that point of view is to assume that they’re instructed/‘programmed’ to follow standing orders until new ones override them, however long that might be.

At least the grand direction obviously was given by the dragon. If it’s a massive hivemind, then it should have collapsed when its core was gone, I don’t see why are they still so organized.

We can see from other dragons.
Mordremoth obviously directly command the Modrem through a hive mind structure. The Sylvari got controlled when came too close to it.
Jormag and the icebrood share a telepathic link, even if its champion’s connection went off the icebrood would attack it. Dragonspawn’s mind affecting power also came from Jormag directly.
Primordus’ Destroyers also follow a hive mind pattern, before the dragon awoke, they all obey to the Great Destroyer and collapse when it was killed.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

The issue is we don’t know how much micromanaging Zhaitan actually did. In my time on this forum I’ve heard theories ranging from a massive hive mind personally directing every corrupted being to a beast who just lounges and eats with no thought for tactics or what’s going on beyond its borders, leaving such things to its generals. Either extreme has as much proof as the other, and none of the middle ground stands out as being particularly more likely either. Until we have more evidence to work off- hopefully with Mordremoth, but possibly still years in the future- the extent and nature of the mental connection is going to come down to which pet theory you decide to champion. It seems like you’ve made up your mind that the dragon champions received frequent updates on what Zhaitan wanted, and yes, in that case it’s a little baffling they don’t notice the absence. My best suggestion from that point of view is to assume that they’re instructed/‘programmed’ to follow standing orders until new ones override them, however long that might be.

At least the grand direction obviously was given by the dragon. If it’s a massive hivemind, then it should have collapsed when its core was gone, I don’t see why are they still so organized.

We can see from other dragons.
Mordremoth obviously directly command the Modrem through a hive mind structure. The Sylvari got controlled when came too close to it.
Jormag and the icebrood share a telepathic link, even if its champion’s connection went off the icebrood would attack it. Dragonspawn’s mind affecting power also came from Jormag directly.
Primordus’ Destroyers also follow a hive mind pattern, before the dragon awoke, they all obey to the Great Destroyer and collapse when it was killed.

Mordemoth is the dragon of plant and mind, so his hive mind connection with the sylvari is unique.
Primordus is arguably the only dragon that doesn’t only corrupt but also creates sentience in dead matter. Yes the risen were dead but they came from sentient beings and yes plants aren’t exactly sentient but they are alive. The destroyers seem more like drones than troops in my opinion, walking rocks that just follow where they are pointed to.

I’m at a loss when it to kralkatorric and jormag though, since they also show some power over the domain of ‘mind’.

Tequatl the Sunless appears to have increased in power and influence following Zhaitan’s death and continues to lead risen forces against nearby inhabitants. It could well be that the Elder Dragons aren’t unique and that their champions can replace them given time and the proper circumstances.

As for risen invoking Zhaitan’s name, that’s just ANet being lazy.

Did the destroyers actually collapse after the Great Destroyer died? It was my understanding that they simply became less organized, but the dwarves were required to continue fighting them underground. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen the endin to EotN though.
If Zhaitan’s influence is anything like Primordus’, I would think the ED gives orders to the generals who have a degree of autonomy, who then delegate to the lower minions. In case of ED inactivity (be it hibernation or death,) a general (i.e. The Great Destroyer or Tequila) can step in and take control. In the absence of either ED or general, the minions just become super basic organisms with no thought beyond “Kill! Eat!”
All that aside, it could just be that the undead we fight in Orr post story are actually just not organized at all and just killing because that’s just all they know. It’d just be too great of a hassle to seperate Orr maps into a pre-Zhaian/Post-Zhaitan map just to drop enemy AI.

Squee.7829:

Did the destroyers actually collapse after the Great Destroyer died? It was my understanding that they simply became less organized, but the dwarves were required to continue fighting them underground. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen the endin to EotN though.

You’re right. I saw it recently, and there is a transcript of it on http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ogden%27s_Benediction

Ogden Stonehealer: “With the death of their master, the Destroyers lost their coordination.”
Ogden Stonehealer: “Jalis and his Dwarves pursued them into the depths of the earth.”

I guess my question for you, Slowpoke, is whether you’d still consider the risen to be organized. Keeping in mind that the only risen we fight that are canonically post-Zhaitan are the ones in Arah explorable (and arguably Teq and his mob) I don’t see much evidence of large-scale coordination. At best we see a cluster of lesser risen following the orders of a more powerful one, but these groups aren’t seen to co-ordinate with each other or to put much thought to goals outside Arah. Like I suggested above, the easiest explanation from the stance you’ve taken is that they’re continuing to carry out their last orders.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I guess my question for you, Slowpoke, is whether you’d still consider the risen to be organized. Keeping in mind that the only risen we fight that are canonically post-Zhaitan are the ones in Arah explorable (and arguably Teq and his mob) I don’t see much evidence of large-scale coordination. At best we see a cluster of lesser risen following the orders of a more powerful one, but these groups aren’t seen to co-ordinate with each other or to put much thought to goals outside Arah. Like I suggested above, the easiest explanation from the stance you’ve taken is that they’re continuing to carry out their last orders.

Sure but the priests were in Arah, why did they still believe Zhaitan was alive?

Why assume that they believe it is alive?
It is not unheard of for armies to shout the name of historical individuals or leaders when going into battle for example.

BTW how many champions were still alive after Zhaitan’s fall? Most of the eyes were killed, mouths were killed, no other dragons were known other than Teq. Not sure about undead captains.

There were a large amount of dragons flying around in the skies when we defeated Zhaitan.

But it’s not like the fight stopped, the airships were still fighting them so they couldn’t aid Zhaitan. Most likely they were took down in that battle.

That does not mean they were killed however.
It is quite possible that they escaped somewhere when Zhaitan fell.

Escaped to where? They have no place to hide.

Underwater? Deep within the city where the Pact have not penetrated yet?

The Pact later went into Arah.

It’s possible that a few dragons escaped, but I don’t believe the majority of them did, otherwise the Pact would have to work on them before they could move to the next dragon.

That is of course assuming the Pact knew that there where escaped dragons.

Tequatl did manage to hide quite well until it attacked Sparkfly after all.

They are big dragons they would need magic to feed upon without their master. It’s not easy to hide.

And yet Tequatl managed to hide for quite some time and wasn’t found until it attacked.

Teq wasn’t in Arah, it was in the coast before Zhaitan’s death.

Indeed, but clearly it could hide quite well. Why is it so impossible that others managed to do it as well?

Because there weren’t so many places to hide, the Pact would also find dragons fly across and hunt them down.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I guess my question for you, Slowpoke, is whether you’d still consider the risen to be organized. Keeping in mind that the only risen we fight that are canonically post-Zhaitan are the ones in Arah explorable (and arguably Teq and his mob) I don’t see much evidence of large-scale coordination. At best we see a cluster of lesser risen following the orders of a more powerful one, but these groups aren’t seen to co-ordinate with each other or to put much thought to goals outside Arah. Like I suggested above, the easiest explanation from the stance you’ve taken is that they’re continuing to carry out their last orders.

Sure but the priests were in Arah, why did they still believe Zhaitan was alive?

Have we established that you can kill a dragon? Even if Zhaitan’s body is destroyed, does that force then cease existance? Can they somehow continue existance though just sheer magic? It’s not completely unheard of for a Lich to live on after its body is destroyed through a mere phylactery and reform his body later or craft a form from something else.

If any Dragon were capable of such, Zhaitan would be that one. We may have destroyed his body and purified the kingdom he held, but the dragons’ reach might go beyond the physical plane. We might have only ‘turned Zhaitan off’ for now.

On the priests and such in Arah- they were in the city proper. Zhaitan laired out east, and we don’t know whether he ever left his pit. It could well be that they never even saw him.

Remaining champions… that’s tricky. The changes to Teq could be a unique case, or they could arguably mean that any cyclical event is still ongoing canon, which would have all of the cathedral priests still coming back as well as a few others. In any event, the Pact’s invasion corridor never took them to the south-eastern regions or Scavenger’s Causeway, so any champions that were out that way will still be around, dragons possibly included. If it’s still canon that Zhaitan was simultaneously pushing towards Elona, there’ll almost certainly be some leading that assault in the desert. Similarly, the Ring of Fire hasn’t been swept clean yet, so there’s a possibility of others lingering there.

Slowpokeking.8720:

I don’t see how could such a massive army follow its order if they couldn’t even feel Zhaitan’s existence through the connection. At least the champions much have a connection with it to spread the will.

Technically, the “massive army” doesn’t follow its order.

Most minions are mindless wanderers who just act how they act and will kill anything that isn’t a minion that it sees.

The champions are said, however, to interpret Zhaitan’s will and then organize the lesser minions (the term “bully” was used). So it isn’t that the “massive army” is following Zhaitan’s orders, but the champions are and the massive army are merely following the champions’ orders.

As to the original question, I would argue that it’s likely that the way that dragon corruption brainwashing works is that rather than instilling a continuous connection between dragon and minion, it creates an imprint of the dragon’s desires and will into the minions. Thus the minions know what Zhaitan wants and demands, but only those which have thought, e.g., the champions, are able to act upon such (whereas the rest is just a general ‘serve Zhaitan, feed Zhaitan, provide Zhaitan’ mentality without actually actively doing such).

Alternatively, it could be that Zhaitan’s ‘essence’ left the body upon its death and went elsewhere – e.g., Tequatl – and thus while Zhaitan was killed it still lives (e.g., the archedmons of Dragon Age and how their spirits just go into a new darkspawn body upon death if not killed by a Gray Warden).

Slowpokeking.8720:

At least the grand direction obviously was given by the dragon. If it’s a massive hivemind, then it should have collapsed when its core was gone, I don’t see why are they still so organized.

Not necessarily. There are two types of “massive hiveminds” in literature:

• Those which have a core, which you speak of. In such cases, there’s really only one mind, and the original body (in this case, Zhaitan) houses the mind itself – the other bodies are just extensions. Here, the core functions like a server connecting to other devices and controlling said other devices. In this situation, destroy the core and the rest becomes inopt – this is the most common form of hiveminds used in literature just because that provides a direct way to end the threat in the plot.
• The other is where the mind is in all bodies; there is no core, no ‘server.’ If you kill what appears to be the main body, the rest still function and all you really did was kill the strongest body.

The only collapsing we see happening is when champions are killed, making them “subservers” so to speak. But here’s a question: What if the Elder Dragon is just a more powerful subserver for the hivemind that is the dragon’s corruption? Alternatively, what if the Elder Dragon can transfer its essence into a subserver?

But as Aaron said, it’s all speculation at this point due to the sheer lack of information – what Anet passes as “mystery” nowadays (well, okay, this piece is done well for a mystery).

I always figured it was like a Starcraft Zerg kind of thing. There’s a single brain (Overmind/Zhaitan) that has to control essentially a billion little body parts (minions), but even the largest network of neurons and whatnot would have a pretty hard time controlling every small piece. It’d be like us having to monitor and fully control every hair follicle on our body. So the “brain” (overmind/Zhaitan) has to delegate tasks through smaller less independent brains (Which at this point, the server analogy Konig used would be better) In Starcraft, the overmind spread control over its massive sprawling armies through use of cerebrates. Big maggot looking things that had no purpose other than to receive orders from the overmind, and carry them out efficiently using the little zergs.
The cerebrates had autonomy, to a point. They can act and react to situations as they see fit (in case of surprise attacks or disconnection from the main brain or server, you need to be able to defend yourself and your assets), but their only caveat was they couldn’t override orders from the Overmind. I think the post Arah undead may be similar. The main brain (server) is dead, but the mostly autonomous sub-brains are still around to give orders.

As for Zhaitan being “uploaded” to Tequatl, that’s a theory I’ve never heard before, and it seems pretty neat, but I also like the idea that since Zhaitan died, Tequatl simply lost the one thing that prevented him from being completely autonomous and can now act more efficiently in the here and now and defend itself, rather than “wait and see whats best for the hive”. Both theories provide a logical reason to why Tequatl is stronger now.

Leo G.4501:

Have we established that you can kill a dragon? Even if Zhaitan’s body is destroyed, does that force then cease existance? Can they somehow continue existance though just sheer magic? It’s not completely unheard of for a Lich to live on after its body is destroyed through a mere phylactery and reform his body later or craft a form from something else.

If any Dragon were capable of such, Zhaitan would be that one. We may have destroyed his body and purified the kingdom he held, but the dragons’ reach might go beyond the physical plane. We might have only ‘turned Zhaitan off’ for now.

It’s not about cease existence, it’s about shouldn’t the Risen lose organization after their master was dead?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Technically, the “massive army” doesn’t follow its order.

Most minions are mindless wanderers who just act how they act and will kill anything that isn’t a minion that it sees.

The champions are said, however, to interpret Zhaitan’s will and then organize the lesser minions (the term “bully” was used). So it isn’t that the “massive army” is following Zhaitan’s orders, but the champions are and the massive army are merely following the champions’ orders.

As to the original question, I would argue that it’s likely that the way that dragon corruption brainwashing works is that rather than instilling a continuous connection between dragon and minion, it creates an imprint of the dragon’s desires and will into the minions. Thus the minions know what Zhaitan wants and demands, but only those which have thought, e.g., the champions, are able to act upon such (whereas the rest is just a general ‘serve Zhaitan, feed Zhaitan, provide Zhaitan’ mentality without actually actively doing such).

They are mindless themselves but they follow the dragon’s order. The dragon control them through the champions.

Not necessarily. There are two types of “massive hiveminds” in literature:

• Those which have a core, which you speak of. In such cases, there’s really only one mind, and the original body (in this case, Zhaitan) houses the mind itself – the other bodies are just extensions. Here, the core functions like a server connecting to other devices and controlling said other devices. In this situation, destroy the core and the rest becomes inopt – this is the most common form of hiveminds used in literature just because that provides a direct way to end the threat in the plot.
• The other is where the mind is in all bodies; there is no core, no ‘server.’ If you kill what appears to be the main body, the rest still function and all you really did was kill the strongest body.

The only collapsing we see happening is when champions are killed, making them “subservers” so to speak. But here’s a question: What if the Elder Dragon is just a more powerful subserver for the hivemind that is the dragon’s corruption? Alternatively, what if the Elder Dragon can transfer its essence into a subserver?

But as Aaron said, it’s all speculation at this point due to the sheer lack of information – what Anet passes as “mystery” nowadays (well, okay, this piece is done well for a mystery).

The dragon is a core, after its death the Risen became a much less threat.

Squee.7829:

I always figured it was like a Starcraft Zerg kind of thing. There’s a single brain (Overmind/Zhaitan) that has to control essentially a billion little body parts (minions), but even the largest network of neurons and whatnot would have a pretty hard time controlling every small piece. It’d be like us having to monitor and fully control every hair follicle on our body. So the “brain” (overmind/Zhaitan) has to delegate tasks through smaller less independent brains (Which at this point, the server analogy Konig used would be better) In Starcraft, the overmind spread control over its massive sprawling armies through use of cerebrates. Big maggot looking things that had no purpose other than to receive orders from the overmind, and carry them out efficiently using the little zergs.
The cerebrates had autonomy, to a point. They can act and react to situations as they see fit (in case of surprise attacks or disconnection from the main brain or server, you need to be able to defend yourself and your assets), but their only caveat was they couldn’t override orders from the Overmind. I think the post Arah undead may be similar. The main brain (server) is dead, but the mostly autonomous sub-brains are still around to give orders.

As for Zhaitan being “uploaded” to Tequatl, that’s a theory I’ve never heard before, and it seems pretty neat, but I also like the idea that since Zhaitan died, Tequatl simply lost the one thing that prevented him from being completely autonomous and can now act more efficiently in the here and now and defend itself, rather than “wait and see whats best for the hive”. Both theories provide a logical reason to why Tequatl is stronger now.

Didn’t most of the champions got killed? If there were any left and commanding the Risen, the Pact surely would clear them before they left.

Most maybe. But there are still some kicking about. The pact didn’t cleanse Orr of Risen. And like in Starcraft, I imagine that once ALL control is gone (all generals, etc.) the zombies will still exist, just be useless and stupid.

Squee.7829:

Most maybe. But there are still some kicking about. The pact didn’t cleanse Orr of Risen. And like in Starcraft, I imagine that once ALL control is gone (all generals, etc.) the zombies will still exist, just be useless and stupid.

They did cleanse the Source, if there were powerful Risen Champion left, it could be corrupted again.

I think, too, but I don’t get why the Risen priests would keep yelling about serve Zhaitan.

They cleansed the source of corruption. I wasn’t referring to that though. I meant they didn’t send in any force to just exterminate all the risen. They just came in, killled Zhaitan and cleared whatever was in between them. And like someone said earlier, it’s not uncommon for someone to shout the name of a fallen hero. But I think the more likely explanation is that they’re not really sure Zhaitan is dead. They probably aren’t all that intelligent and just go on acting as they were programmed as if Zhaitan was still around.

Squee.7829:

They cleansed the source of corruption. I wasn’t referring to that though. I meant they didn’t send in any force to just exterminate all the risen. They just came in, killled Zhaitan and cleared whatever was in between them. And like someone said earlier, it’s not uncommon for someone to shout the name of a fallen hero. But I think the more likely explanation is that they’re not really sure Zhaitan is dead. They probably aren’t all that intelligent and just go on acting as they were programmed as if Zhaitan was still around.

They didn’t need to kill all Risen, but I don’t think they would let powerful and intelligent Risen Champion that could command armies stay just there rather than kill it as well.

The priest of Lyssa even tricked you.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Leo G.4501:

Have we established that you can kill a dragon? Even if Zhaitan’s body is destroyed, does that force then cease existance? Can they somehow continue existance though just sheer magic? It’s not completely unheard of for a Lich to live on after its body is destroyed through a mere phylactery and reform his body later or craft a form from something else.

If any Dragon were capable of such, Zhaitan would be that one. We may have destroyed his body and purified the kingdom he held, but the dragons’ reach might go beyond the physical plane. We might have only ‘turned Zhaitan off’ for now.

It’s not about cease existence, it’s about shouldn’t the Risen lose organization after their master was dead?

But that’s the point I was trying to make. If Zhaitan hasn’t ceased existance, then likely he’s not dead, just inactive.

Slowpokeking.8720:

The dragon is a core, after its death the Risen became a much less threat.

Wouldn’t that qualify as “loss of organization”? You just answered your own question. Why do the Risen still fight? Because that is their (undead) existance’s purpose. But they have mostly lost all organization and thus are much less of a threat.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Zhaitan is dead, they don’t have anyone to serve anymore. Also why did the Risen priests think Zhaitan is alive?

That’s simply because Anet didn’t bother (or want) to change Orr after Zhaitan’s demise, in a way that showed us the consequence of the elder dragon’s death. So everything in there is the same as it was at the moment GW2 was released in 2012, as if we never killed Zhaitan to begin with (and that’s why the risen priests think Zhaitan is alive. Because it is alive to them).

Logically speaking, after the death of their master the vast majority of the risen should have gone back to being mere rotting corpses, with only a few powerful ones here and there remaining active. So when we go to Orr right now we should be seeing a land almost devoid of risen, starting to slowly heal itself (because of the cleansing ritual) and returning to life little by little. But that would have meant making a major update to the game (completely remaking all of Orr maps, with the previous ones put into story instances so that new players could still enjoy them) and Anet decided they didn’t want to.

Sir Alric.5078:

Slowpokeking.8720:

Zhaitan is dead, they don’t have anyone to serve anymore. Also why did the Risen priests think Zhaitan is alive?

That’s simply because Anet didn’t bother (or want) to change Orr after Zhaitan’s demise, in a way that showed us the consequence of the elder dragon’s death. So everything in there is the same as it was at the moment GW2 was released in 2012, as if we never killed Zhaitan to begin with (and that’s why the risen priests think Zhaitan is alive. Because it is alive to them).

You say that out of spite, I can tell, but it’s mostly you’re not understanding from your jaded perspective. I’m guessing Anet could have created different instances for Orr that reflect where you are in the story instance or created dialog triggers that changed what the NPCs say in Orr depending on if you defeated Zhaitan or not but to come up with a solution, you can’t just write off the devs as lazy without knowing the goals, constraints and difficulties they have to face when making content.

Yes, the time in Orr is ‘frozen’ to that point in time for some because it has to. What moment in time it does reflect is debatable. Even in the personal story, Trahern mentions that cleansing Orr will take time. Killing Zhaitan won’t turn all the undead back into lifeless corpses because it hasn’t happened! It won’t realistically undo Zhaitan’s power because the story dictates otherwise. The point in time Orr reflects is dependent on the character. Characters who haven’t completed the personal story, Orr is meant to reflect the point in time before facing Zhaitan. Characters who have done the PS, Orr could reflect the period right after.

Obviously, the goal of Anet is to make a malleable instance that can work for more people without requiring splintered instances thus dividing the players more across the various servers. They also took a story approach that is ambiguous enough that you, the player, can just devise your own purpose or reason to be in Orr. That’s pretty much what the thread then amounts to. Why do the risen still fight? Because Zhaitan may be defeated but his magic and effects on the world still linger. Why do his champions still fight? Because they have yet to be cleansed and it’s your job as a hero to do it. Why do the risen still cry Zhaitan’s name? Already been said, just because he’s dead doesn’t mean he didn’t bring the risen to life and that they stop worshiping him.

If none of that explanation is good enough, you can just ignore the lore as flawed in your perspective or never step foot in Orr until the game maps are updated. As is, there are still players that need Orr to remain to complete the story.

Even ignoring that contention (and, for the record, I do favor the frozen in time interpretation to the always equally applicable one) there’s still Arah explorable, which to my understanding is what Slowpoke is talking about in that quote. That, no matter how you look at it, is after Zhaitan’s defeat, and there are still loads of average (albeit dungeon-scaled) risen running about.

I actually never assumed we actually killed Zhaitan. I always thought we just forced him back into slumber. The Elder Dragons are magic incarnate, so killing one outright would destroy a sixth of the world’s magic (something I don’t think is even possible).

*distribute a sixth of the world’s magic. The stuff leaks back out of the corpse into the ecosystem, so in theory it’s like he fell back asleep without the prospect of him ever waking up again.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Even ignoring that contention (and, for the record, I do favor the frozen in time interpretation to the always equally applicable one) there’s still Arah explorable, which to my understanding is what Slowpoke is talking about in that quote. That, no matter how you look at it, is after Zhaitan’s defeat, and there are still loads of average (albeit dungeon-scaled) risen running about.

Arah explorable is most certainly post-Zhaitan. It’s also the one area to show the immediate impact of his death; the sky is clear and normal, rather than choked with smog. The instance confirms that the risen did not change in any discernible way post-Zhaitan, but the environment did.

Because of this, I think it’s safe to favor the frozen in time explanation for the bulk of Orr. Most of the world is frozen in time as well; there are no significant, permanent changes to areas after significant events occur. Except for Living Story things, I suppose.

MMO logic, the world does not update to take account of personal changes. It’s a common problem in MMOs.