Guild Wars 2

It can clearly be seen under the ice and caused Svanir to turn into the Nornbear, shouldn’t they try to dig it out and kill it before it gathered more worshipers?

I don’t know if they knew that Drakkar was there, since they were said to have shunned the region as cursed. Even if they did, they would A.) not know that it was alive (or whatever passes for being alive), B.) have no real reason to believe it was the source of the curse, and C.) not know that the curse could even be destroyed (something we still don’t know, actually- is the corpse of a slain dragon champion still corruptive?). I think they did the logical thing- noted that hanging out in that region was bad, and then promptly ceased to hang out in that region.

Not to mention, if they all grouped up together to dig it out of the ice, they would all just be exposing themselves to its mental influence.

1. It can only be “clearly seen” if you have improper graphics settings.
2. Drakkar Lake was a forbidden place. The norn avoided the area for superstitious reasons that turned out to hold some merit of truth. So it’s highly likely that they didn’t know Drakkar was underneath there.
3. Digging it out may have unleashed it – it was imprisoned, but sentient enough to corrupt Svanir, and as such, it was very much alive and awake.
4. Jora didn’t seem to know that Drakkar was there during GW1, further hinting to point #2. Knowledge of Drakkar appears to only have surfaced after it did. If Jora (and the norn) did know, then they didn’t link it to Svanir’s corruption into the Nornbear.

@Aaron: We don’t really know if a dragon’s corpse corrupts, but given that hibernating dragons (Elder or champion) don’t, then it’s highly likely that their corpse wouldn’t either, though their magic still seems to hold a specific “flavor” to it (Glint’s aspects).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. It can only be “clearly seen” if you have improper graphics settings.
2. Drakkar Lake was a forbidden place. The norn avoided the area for superstitious reasons that turned out to hold some merit of truth. So it’s highly likely that they didn’t know Drakkar was underneath there.
3. Digging it out may have unleashed it – it was imprisoned, but sentient enough to corrupt Svanir, and as such, it was very much alive and awake.
4. Jora didn’t seem to know that Drakkar was there during GW1, further hinting to point #2. Knowledge of Drakkar appears to only have surfaced after it did. If Jora (and the norn) did know, then they didn’t link it to Svanir’s corruption into the Nornbear.

@Aaron: We don’t really know if a dragon’s corpse corrupts, but given that hibernating dragons (Elder or champion) don’t, then it’s highly likely that their corpse wouldn’t either, though their magic still seems to hold a specific “flavor” to it (Glint’s aspects).

I mean it gathered worshipers for around 90 years before Jormag awoke, shouldn’t the norn try to investigate it during this period?

Kill it if it awoke, if Jormag was not awaken, Drakkar shouldn’t be too hard to kill. Unlike the Great Destroyer, it hadn’t even gathered Icebrood army yet.

Going off of lore I’ve seen, those worshipers were few in number.

Plus, and far more importantly, the norn don’t judge individuals for poor choices. They are willing to put up with Sons of Svanir even now, until the moment the individual causes trouble.

It sounds to me like you’re putting human logic onto the norn – which just doesn’t work.

It may be that a couple norn investigated it – but it wouldn’t be a large scale thing, simply because norn are too individualistic; if it became a large scale thing, it’s because it was a chance at a huge legend – meaning it was very well known.

A small cult is hardly “very well known”, especially if it’s unknown if it’s doing anything – there was only one Nornbear, and not even Jora seemed to know the origin.

The Sons of Svanir would basically be your typical cult that gathers at night in a place people deem haunted or the like. Like a group of occultists gathering in a run down building claimed to be haunted.

And dragon champions alone are hard to defeat. With normal NPCs, it takes an army. This is why Destiny’s Edge was so praised – they were able to do with 6 people what took others armies and they still could fail.

Yeah, I don’t understand them for giving the Sons of Svanir a place in their city.

Since Jormage was still gathering power, I think Drakkar shouldn’t be as hard to kill as the Dragonspawn. It couldn’t even turn Jora, Jeff Grubb also mentioned something like that.

Hence the different cultural-instilled mentalities. Norn judge on an individual, while most people judge on associations. A norn wouldn’t look at me and go “American” – you’d go “Konig”; humans, however, would look at me and go “American” and judge me off of that.

I don’t think it’s so much “couldn’t” but rather “wouldn’t”. Jormag and his icebrood seem intent on letting his future minions turning to his side willingly. It’s only the Sons of Svanir, who still have a realm of self-thought to them (not being (fully) corrupted (yet)). Jora refused, just like Zojja did with the Dragonspawn (with a bit of help from Eir), thus was not deemed worthy of the gift of corruption.

With Jormag still lack of power to rise, I don’t think Drakkar could turn people’s mind that easily. Even Svanir was corrupted by Jormag through it. Sure it would have been hard to kill but not impossible. The Norn are brave enough to take a challenge.

As the EOTN storyline showed the norn just didn’t approach threats that way.

They didn’t destroy something simply because it could be a threat. Even the ones who agreed that the Great Destroyer was threatening the entire North (and potentially all of Tyria) wouldn’t help fight it unless it had done something to harm or offend them personally, or they wanted the glory of taking it down.

When Jora sought help with fighting the Nornbear, or even simply tracking it, she was looked down on as being weak for needing help. Even those who defended her did it by making excuses – she’s a warrior, tracking prey isn’t her role, she can’t become the bear so she can’t fight with the full strength of a norn etc.

I get the impression that’s changed somewhat over time, at least for the norn who came south. I suspect it’s a combination of having to band together to survive and make the trip and integrating with the other races societies but they seem more willing to work together. They seem to acknowledge that when (not if) they go after Jormag it’s going to be a group effort.

But the focus is still on individuals rather than groups. They might choose to work together, but it’s something each individual decides for themselves on a case-by-case basis. So unless the threat from Drakkar was evident and immediate to a lot of norn, or someone went around and persuaded several hundred of them to go after it, it just wouldn’t happen.

Danikat.8537:

As the EOTN storyline showed the norn just didn’t approach threats that way.

They didn’t destroy something simply because it could be a threat. Even the ones who agreed that the Great Destroyer was threatening the entire North (and potentially all of Tyria) wouldn’t help fight it unless it had done something to harm or offend them personally, or they wanted the glory of taking it down.

When Jora sought help with fighting the Nornbear, or even simply tracking it, she was looked down on as being weak for needing help. Even those who defended her did it by making excuses – she’s a warrior, tracking prey isn’t her role, she can’t become the bear so she can’t fight with the full strength of a norn etc.

I get the impression that’s changed somewhat over time, at least for the norn who came south. I suspect it’s a combination of having to band together to survive and make the trip and integrating with the other races societies but they seem more willing to work together. They seem to acknowledge that when (not if) they go after Jormag it’s going to be a group effort.

But the focus is still on individuals rather than groups. They might choose to work together, but it’s something each individual decides for themselves on a case-by-case basis. So unless the threat from Drakkar was evident and immediate to a lot of norn, or someone went around and persuaded several hundred of them to go after it, it just wouldn’t happen.

Yes, not just because Jormag was so powerful, I think also because the pride probably caused many Norn to listen to Jormag’s whisper since he promised them with power.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. It can only be “clearly seen” if you have improper graphics settings.
2. Drakkar Lake was a forbidden place. The norn avoided the area for superstitious reasons that turned out to hold some merit of truth. So it’s highly likely that they didn’t know Drakkar was underneath there.
3. Digging it out may have unleashed it – it was imprisoned, but sentient enough to corrupt Svanir, and as such, it was very much alive and awake.
4. Jora didn’t seem to know that Drakkar was there during GW1, further hinting to point #2. Knowledge of Drakkar appears to only have surfaced after it did. If Jora (and the norn) did know, then they didn’t link it to Svanir’s corruption into the Nornbear.

@Aaron: We don’t really know if a dragon’s corpse corrupts, but given that hibernating dragons (Elder or champion) don’t, then it’s highly likely that their corpse wouldn’t either, though their magic still seems to hold a specific “flavor” to it (Glint’s aspects).

Point 1 – really Konig, improper graphic settings, that’s BS and you know it, all you had to do is stand in the middle of the frozen lake, draw the camera back all the way and look down, and there it was, frozen in the lake, the spine and ‘fin-like’ appendages where the arms/legs should have been, it wasn’t even that far under the surface…it was intentional that you could see it from above, and yes, that skeleton in the frozen lake was Drakkar…but that wasn’t widely known or maybe it was, depends on who you talk to, and some people say it isn’t/wasn’t.
2, 3 and 4 I agree with, just don’t agree with you on point 1.

I’m pretty positive you could see the giant creature under the lake in almost any graphic setting, so it was obviously supposed to be seen. And do we know for certain they didn’t try to kill it and fail? As Konig mentioned, digging it out of the ice would have surely led to corruption. And the Norn avoiding the area was a large factor, sure, but very un-Norn like. I think it’s likely that the area being “cursed” kept away the common Norn rabble most of the time, but a mysterious powerful entity would probably just seem like a challenge to the more adventurous ones. I think it’s more likely that some Norn would have certainly tried to kill it, but failed. Something like Drakkar would take the cooperation of pretty much every Norn in the known Shiverpeaks and probably some other species to permanently kill, but that sort of cooperation is not the Norn way. The small hunting parties that probably went to investigate this mysterious lake entity probably became the few corrupted Konig mentioned.

Short version: They probably DID try to kill it at least once or a few times, but failed.
You just don’t hear about it because history commonly only mentions SUCCESSFUL ventures, not failures.

Squee.7829:

I’m pretty positive you could see the giant creature under the lake in almost any graphic setting, so it was obviously supposed to be seen. And do we know for certain they didn’t try to kill it and fail? As Konig mentioned, digging it out of the ice would have surely led to corruption. And the Norn avoiding the area was a large factor, sure, but very un-Norn like. I think it’s likely that the area being “cursed” kept away the common Norn rabble most of the time, but a mysterious powerful entity would probably just seem like a challenge to the more adventurous ones. I think it’s more likely that some Norn would have certainly tried to kill it, but failed. Something like Drakkar would take the cooperation of pretty much every Norn in the known Shiverpeaks and probably some other species to permanently kill, but that sort of cooperation is not the Norn way. The small hunting parties that probably went to investigate this mysterious lake entity probably became the few corrupted Konig mentioned.

Short version: They probably DID try to kill it at least once or a few times, but failed.
You just don’t hear about it because history commonly only mentions SUCCESSFUL ventures, not failures.

How is digging it out going to corrupt people? The Dragonspawn had such power because it was the greatest champion of Jormag. Also at that time, Jormag had already awoke and was very strong.

Just being near its sleeping carcass corrupted people. That’s how the whole Nornbear mess came about. Tampering with it would have sure done something. And Jormag was most certainly not awake at that time.

Squee.7829:

Just being near its sleeping carcass corrupted people. That’s how the whole Nornbear mess came about. Tampering with it would have sure done something. And Jormag was most certainly not awake at that time.

It didn’t turn people, Jormag was offering power to Svanir through this champion and he accepted, also it took a long process to turn him into the Nornbear. If people just refuse its offer and try to kill it, that’s going to be different.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/uploads/gallery/album_163/gallery_3318_163_39486.png

Yeah, this interview mentioned the beast had limited power before Jormag’s awakening.

How limited was that power though? It failed to corruptt Jora, but we don’t know why. It definitely corrupted Svanir though. And after that incident, it’s likely any thoughts of going out to investigate the lake would have been delayed. By the time any brave Norn decided to see what had caused all the trouble, Drakkar could have been more concious, or even more attuned to the Norn mind after successfully infiltrating Svanir’s.

And even Jora was affected to some extent, in that she lost her ability to become the bear. I don’t see the norn risking that to go dig up and poke at some great behemoth that may or may not be the cause- especially when they had a more likely culprit.

Squee.7829:

How limited was that power though? It failed to corruptt Jora, but we don’t know why. It definitely corrupted Svanir though. And after that incident, it’s likely any thoughts of going out to investigate the lake would have been delayed. By the time any brave Norn decided to see what had caused all the trouble, Drakkar could have been more concious, or even more attuned to the Norn mind after successfully infiltrating Svanir’s.

Svanir was corrupted because he accepted the offer.

An organized army should be able to take it down, they could just dig out its head and chop it off.

Slowpokeking.8720:

With Jormag still lack of power to rise, I don’t think Drakkar could turn people’s mind that easily. Even Svanir was corrupted by Jormag through it. Sure it would have been hard to kill but not impossible. The Norn are brave enough to take a challenge.

“With Jormag still lack of power to rise, I don’t think Drakkar could turn people’s mind that easily.”
Glint and the Great Destroyer did not lack power. There is nothing to hint that a champion’s power is reduced because of their Elder Dragons’ state of hibernation.

“Sure it would have been hard to kill but not impossible.”
In general, true, however for the individualistic norn, it may be impossible either way. One person cannot kill dragon champions unless they’re super awesome like Destiny’s Edge or the PC.

“The Norn are brave enough to take a challenge.”
Presuming, of course, they know the challenge even exists.

Zaklex.6308:

Point 1 – really Konig, improper graphic settings, that’s BS and you know it, all you had to do is stand in the middle of the frozen lake, draw the camera back all the way and look down, and there it was, frozen in the lake, the spine and ‘fin-like’ appendages where the arms/legs should have been, it wasn’t even that far under the surface…it was intentional that you could see it from above, and yes, that skeleton in the frozen lake was Drakkar…but that wasn’t widely known or maybe it was, depends on who you talk to, and some people say it isn’t/wasn’t.

Longest sentence ever?

Anyways, you apparently didn’t read the subtle joke in the line. I said CLEARLY see it. :P Slowpokeing said it can be CLEARLY seen.

In all honesty, you have to be looking for it to see it – e.g., you have to look down, through the ice (or look on the world map, which NPCs wouldn’t have).

Slowpokeking.8720:

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/uploads/gallery/album_163/gallery_3318_163_39486.png

Yeah, this interview mentioned the beast had limited power before Jormag’s awakening.

Actually, it just said that Drakkar had limited effect – which is how Jora avoided corruption. That is nothing to do with Jormag’s awakened/hibernation status, but more likely tied to Jormag’s preference of corruption (convert first, corrupt second) – which is hinted in the line “the Sons think this is due to gender, but it may be something else entirely.” Keep in mind that at this time, Jormag’s preference of converting before corrupting rather than the other Elder Dragons’ preference of corrupting to enslave wasn’t known.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Svanir was corrupted because he accepted the offer.

An organized army should be able to take it down, they could just dig out its head and chop it off.

Note the bold.

Even in modern GW2, norn do not have organized armies. They have small hunting parties that’ll consist of less than a dozen.

And even if they brought an organized army – how many of them would be subdued by the mental abilities of Drakkar, thus turning on their once-allies? And if it was a hunting party (far far more likely), who’s to say Drakkar couldn’t turn all of them. Maybe that is how the Sons of Svanir began.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

~Snip~

Point 1 – really Konig, improper graphic settings, that’s BS and you know it, all you had to do is stand in the middle of the frozen lake, draw the camera back all the way and look down, and there it was, frozen in the lake, the spine and ‘fin-like’ appendages where the arms/legs should have been, it wasn’t even that far under the surface…it was intentional that you could see it from above, and yes, that skeleton in the frozen lake was Drakkar…but that wasn’t widely known or maybe it was, depends on who you talk to, and some people say it isn’t/wasn’t.

Longest sentence ever?

Anyways, you apparently didn’t read the subtle joke in the line. I said CLEARLY see it. :P Slowpokeing said it can be CLEARLY seen.

In all honesty, you have to be looking for it to see it – e.g., you have to look down, through the ice (or look on the world map, which NPCs wouldn’t have).

~Snip~

I can go with a longer sentence if you like, it’s my specialty. Yes, I got the joke, as for having to be looking for it to see it, I’m not sure about that. I distinctly remember seeing it myself without even knowing it was there and to look for it. I just happened to see the large bones through the ice while fighting those kitten …yeah. Anyways, it probably also depends on how you positioned your camera too. I always played at max camera depth at a roughly 30 degree angle(heck I still play that way). Always thought it was just a long dead dragon that got caught in the frozen lake.

There’s one glaringly obvious flaw in the argument “An organized army should be able to take it down, they could just dig out its head and chop it off.”
The point in EotN was enforced again and again that the Norn had no concept of organized armies. It would not have happened. If they fail, they simply think “I must get stronger” not “I should get an organized group of individuals to form a cohesive unit”. That would detract from the heroes story. And that’s just not Norn. It can be hard for humans to imagine, as everything we do henges on being social and working together, but it’s just not a concept Norn grasp easily.

We see that again with the current Living Story. At the leaders summit the different nations recognise Mordremoth as a threat and send their soldiers. The best the norn could do was send a handful of Wolfborn, but mostly just send the call out to encourage hunters to chase their legend by fighting Mordremoth. In that sense, I suspect many norn did try to kill Drakkar – just on their own and not as an army. I don’t think they were successful.

A much more interesting question is “where is Drakkar now”?

If Drakkar Lake got swallowed by the Frostgorge Sound, it probably thawed out. Did it wake up? Considering Drakkar appears to be a marine creature, and not a winged dragon; I would expect him to be Jormag’s champion guarding the Frostgorge. While the claw(s) bully the people that fled south.