Why do Sylvari have romance?

Why do Sylvari have romance?

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Posted by: Pipedream.1706

Pipedream.1706

I mean they’re a race of plant people that reproduce through a giant tree. Clearly they aren’t the ones getting pregnant or responsible for their own life cycle in anyway so would they even have the parts? I doubt it.

So essentially they have no need for attraction, probably don’t have the equipment, or really ANY instincts that would explain them needing to pair off or distinguish between a new friend and a new “friend”. They might have the concept of an absolute best buddy that they’d go to the ends of the earth for but I’m not sure I’d call that romance. So why is Romance such a big part of their story routes?

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Posted by: Fluffball.8307

Fluffball.8307

I’m pretty sure the romance thing is actually explained in story, but since I’m not a lorehound I’ll just say, why wouldn’t a human influenced intelligent creature seek out a mate? My wife is my biffle, not just a breeding partner.

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Posted by: Rognik.2579

Rognik.2579

Sylvari have attraction because that’s what they learned through the Dream. There are a lot of things that confuse them, but camaraderie is not one of them. Also, it might be a learned thing rather than an instinctual one, where they didn’t start feeling close to each other until after seeing the other races do it. I haven’t really studied up on Caithe and Faolain’s relationship, but I know part of the reason those two grew closer was because those two were the ones with the strongest wanderlust out of the Firstborns. We all feel a need to be close to each other, and perhaps the sylvari romance is dramatically different than the other races’ idea. I mean, there are more “homosexual” relationships among the sylvari than there are “heterosexual” ones. (I use the terms loosely as gender for them is different than for other races.)

As for the issue of equipment, it’s from before the game was released, but it was confirmed that sylvari have at least the right tools, even if they don’t have the internal components necessary in reproduction. Aside from, ahem, spreading their seed or fertilizing their soil, there’s nothing a human can do that way that a sylvari cannot duplicate.

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Posted by: nottsgman.8206

nottsgman.8206

Physically, sylvari are male or female, and the relevant external biology is accurate on both, but they cannot sexually reproduce as the other races do; they have no internal organs capable of creating children.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dream_and_Nightmare

so yes, they do ‘have the parts’

also

To a sylvari, love is about inspiration. Physical touch, ardor, and sensuality are beautiful things, but what the heart feels, what gives joy to the spirit – these are most important, and that has nothing at all to do with the physical form. Love is not bound by gender. It does not ignore the pairing of hearts simply because the bodies are alike. Indeed, the sylvari feel free to love (and love openly) regardless of the physical qualities of their beloved. It would surprise them to hear that someone of any race felt differently. They would say that love is too precious to be passed over simply because someone’s eyes are blue, their hair is dark, or because they are of the same sex.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/17543-arenanet-the-sylvari-soul-%E2%80%93-angel-mccoy-on-writing-the-sylvari/page-2?&&p=835225#entry835225

70 ‘mains’ and waiting for more slots
| 61 Asura | 5 Charr | 2 Norn | 1 Human | 1 Sylvari |

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Posted by: Bazompora.2635

Bazompora.2635

They would say that love is too precious to be passed over simply because someone’s eyes are blue, their hair is dark, or because they are of the same sex.

… or because they are all brothers and sisters.

Such general lack of humanity undercuts the argument for Sylvari romance.

Plot hole?

Elonians who know her history are often proud to have one of their own in the pantheon.

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Posted by: Rognik.2579

Rognik.2579

They would say that love is too precious to be passed over simply because someone’s eyes are blue, their hair is dark, or because they are of the same sex.

… or because they are all brothers and sisters.

Such general lack of humanity undercuts the argument for Sylvari romance.

Plot hole?

Not really. It’s never been depicted, but sylvari could also fall in love with another race. So far, there’s been no interspecies romance, and we know that there can’t be any cross-pollination of the races, but that doesn’t mean they can’t fall in love with, say, a human, an asura or a norn. The culture gap might be too big, though, which is why we haven’t seen it yet.

Also, since we know no sylvari can reproduce no matter how much they try, does it matter that they’re all technically siblings? They seek comfort in another being, and when you have hundreds of brothers and sisters, that familial bond loses all meaning.

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Posted by: Bazompora.2635

Bazompora.2635

Also, since we know no sylvari can reproduce no matter how much they try, does it matter that they’re all technically siblings?

It should matter, if it’s human bonding they’ve inherited. Aren’t sibling pairs humanly aberrant, regardless of whether they are reproductive?

Elonians who know her history are often proud to have one of their own in the pantheon.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Also, since we know no sylvari can reproduce no matter how much they try, does it matter that they’re all technically siblings?

It should matter, if it’s human bonding they’ve inherited. Aren’t sibling pairs humanly aberrant, regardless of whether they are reproductive?

I don’t recall anyone saying they ‘inherited’ human notions of romance. That quote above lays out that they take a pretty different tack, and more generally speaking, it’s so common for non-human races to have human-like psychology, love included, in both fantasy and sci-fi, that it’s not something anyone feels a need to justify anymore. The things that set them apart are almost always built around specific exceptions, and this is just one of them- it’s accepted these days that the taboo against sibling relationships is rooted in the dangers on in-breeding. With a race that doesn’t have that danger, it follows that they wouldn’t have that taboo.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Bazompora.2635

Bazompora.2635

I don’t recall anyone saying they ‘inherited’ human notions of romance. That quote above lays out that they take a pretty different tack, and more generally speaking, it’s so common for non-human races to have human-like psychology, love included, in both fantasy and sci-fi, that it’s not something anyone feels a need to justify anymore. The things that set them apart are almost always built around specific exceptions, and this is just one of them- it’s accepted these days that the taboo against sibling relationships is rooted in the dangers on in-breeding. With a race that doesn’t have that danger, it follows that they wouldn’t have that taboo.

I don’t disagree that “non-human races” are by convention the way you describe, but the advanced premise on which sylvari are into romance is unconventional, so I beg to differ here. From a race that doesn’t do any kind of breeding, none kind of romantic relationships follows. Contradiction thus stems from, on one hand, the premise that sylvari have romance because of mimicking the human template and the proposition that they are a separate race that has nothing to with the human disinclination regarding incest, on the other hand.

Also, I wouldn’t compare the lack of taboo on incest with homoromanticism, which is a minority orientation and not an exception. The inclusion of the human couple of Marjorie and Kasmeer, is evidence that homoromanticism is not a racial thing.

Elonians who know her history are often proud to have one of their own in the pantheon.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

From a race that doesn’t do any kind of breeding, none kind of romantic relationships follows.

But romance isn’t just a sex thing: see asexuals. It’s about emotional intimacy, it’s about building tight-knit social units, it’s about companionship, and while these are traditionally tied up in who we sleep with, removing the sexual aspect doesn’t cause all the rest to lose its value.

Also, I wouldn’t compare the lack of taboo on incest with homoromanticism, which is a minority orientation and not an exception.

I… didn’t, I don’t think. Are you referring to my reference to the dev quote?

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Ardid.7203

Ardid.7203

Love can exist without direct reproductive ends, even “romantic” one.
Also, IMO, the Sylvari “brotherhood” is more relevant in its social meaning (“We are equals and must love each other”) than in its biological one (“We were born from the same organism”), even though both are true.

“Only problem with the Engineer is
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks

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Posted by: Bazompora.2635

Bazompora.2635

But romance isn’t just a sex thing: see asexuals. It’s about emotional intimacy, it’s about building tight-knit social units, it’s about companionship, and while these are traditionally tied up in who we sleep with, removing the sexual aspect doesn’t cause all the rest to lose its value.

Sex and reproduction aren’t synonymous. Social organisms tend to have diverse orientations, selected for on the benefit of complementary roles. Ant and bee colonies are for the largest part composed of asexual units that assist a heterosexual queen in the communal system of reproduction. None such thing would come about without reproduction. Because humans reproduce on a smaller scale and came thereby to operate on a different plane of intelligence, we obtained romance as a force beneficial for reproduction.

Also, I wouldn’t compare the lack of taboo on incest with homoromanticism, which is a minority orientation and not an exception.

I… didn’t, I don’t think. Are you referring to my reference to the dev quote?

Yes. Oftentimes, matters aren’t thought all the way through. Like, racial analogy, as the overarching example.

If sylvari manifest our social propensities, without natalist injunctions and inhibitions, they should still have our natural preference for unrelated partners.

Love can exist without direct reproductive ends, even “romantic” one.
Also, IMO, the Sylvari “brotherhood” is more relevant in its social meaning (“We are equals and must love each other”) than in its biological one (“We were born from the same organism”), even though both are true.

Romance and “brotherhood” are two different, often conflicting, forces, that each prioritise a different type of relation. Each proposes a different model for who is more equal than others: companion or comrades. Sylvari romance cancels out sylvari brotherhood, as seen in-game, where sylvari aren’t really brotherly with eachother beyond clinging to the same mother. Without the pale tree, the sylvari race should be utterly atomised. Even free from direct reproductive consequences, incest erases the family on a social level.

Elonians who know her history are often proud to have one of their own in the pantheon.

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Posted by: Ardid.7203

Ardid.7203

Love can exist without direct reproductive ends, even “romantic” one.
Also, IMO, the Sylvari “brotherhood” is more relevant in its social meaning (“We are equals and must love each other”) than in its biological one (“We were born from the same organism”), even though both are true.

Romance and “brotherhood” are two different, often conflicting, forces, that each prioritise a different type of relation. Each proposes a different model for who is more equal than others: companion or comrades. Sylvari romance cancels out sylvari brotherhood, as seen in-game, where sylvari aren’t really brotherly with eachother beyond clinging to the same mother. Without the pale tree, the sylvari race should be utterly atomised. Even free from direct reproductive consequences, incest erases the family on a social level.

Sorry but I think you got a fallacious reasoning running there.
Sylvari Romance conflicts with Sylvari Brotherhood (Which is debatable anyway) =/= Sylvari Incest atomizes their society.

Even if close and personal relatonship between two Sylvari could “cancel out” with their role as brothers, it doesn’t have to afect their society, or their brotherhood with other Sylvari.

In our real world society incest is taboo, denied and prosecuted because it has a lot of ugly consequences, mainly for the offspring health and for the inheritance mechanisms. However, if we had two siblings romanticing without responsability over family capital or reproduction, all our taboos become moot. They will probably still be rejected, but there will be no more reason for that than blind habit.

They wouldn’t be “erasing society”. Society would be erasing them.

“Only problem with the Engineer is
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks

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Posted by: Bazompora.2635

Bazompora.2635

Love can exist without direct reproductive ends, even “romantic” one.
Also, IMO, the Sylvari “brotherhood” is more relevant in its social meaning (“We are equals and must love each other”) than in its biological one (“We were born from the same organism”), even though both are true.

Romance and “brotherhood” are two different, often conflicting, forces, that each prioritise a different type of relation. Each proposes a different model for who is more equal than others: companion or comrades. Sylvari romance cancels out sylvari brotherhood, as seen in-game, where sylvari aren’t really brotherly with eachother beyond clinging to the same mother. Without the pale tree, the sylvari race should be utterly atomised. Even free from direct reproductive consequences, incest erases the family on a social level.

Sorry but I think you got a fallacious reasoning running there.
Sylvari Romance conflicts with Sylvari Brotherhood (Which is debatable anyway) =/= Sylvari Incest atomizes their society.

Even if close and personal relatonship between two Sylvari could “cancel out” with their role as brothers, it doesn’t have to afect their society, or their brotherhood with other Sylvari.

In our real world society incest is taboo, denied and prosecuted because it has a lot of ugly consequences, mainly for the offspring health and for the inheritance mechanisms. However, if we had two siblings romanticing without responsability over family capital or reproduction, all our taboos become moot. They will probably still be rejected, but there will be no more reason for that than blind habit.

They wouldn’t be “erasing society”. Society would be erasing them.

If our rejection of incest were solely based on responsibility and habit, we wouldn’t extend the rejection to adoptive relations.

You can say you love your partner and your siblings equally and refuse to place one kind of kinship above the other. But if one of your siblings is your partner, no one would even entertain the pretense that you don’t value their kinship less than the double kinship you share with her. Add to that the compounding of rivalries, when everyone strives for the love of anyone among siblings, the way we already do for popularity and potential partners, and there is very little equality and trust left for a sense of brotherhood instilled by siblinghood. That’s why incest would remain a transgression against the familial vestiges of kinship, regardless of reproduction and inheritance.

But an atomised society with erased family ties isn’t the same as an “erased society” yet,
if that’s what you read from what I said.

Elonians who know her history are often proud to have one of their own in the pantheon.

Why do Sylvari have romance?

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Sex and reproduction aren’t synonymous. Social organisms tend to have diverse orientations, selected for on the benefit of complementary roles. Ant and bee colonies are for the largest part composed of asexual units that assist a heterosexual queen in the communal system of reproduction. None such thing would come about without reproduction. Because humans reproduce on a smaller scale and came thereby to operate on a different plane of intelligence, we obtained romance as a force beneficial for reproduction.

I get the feeling we’re using the same word to talk about fundamentally different relationships at this point, but let me try one more time: The benefits, and thus, the reasons to pursue, romance extend beyond reproduction. See my last post.

If sylvari manifest our social propensities, without natalist injunctions and inhibitions, they should still have our natural preference for unrelated partners.

This isn’t a binary choice between importing something wholesale or having none of it. When things manifest independently, it stands to reason that it’ll manifest similarly in some places to reflect fundamental similarities and differently in others to reflect fundamental differences. The sylvari, with the fundamental difference of infertility and the fundamental similarity of a psychology mirroring humans, would naturally manifest the social aspects of romance while not manifesting the sexual ones- including the taboo on incest.

When things are instead adopted, which I expect is largely what happened with sylvari and romance, you’re closer to the mark: things will be imported wholesale except where there’s specific reason to make a change. In this case, the sylvari have specific reason to drop the incest taboo- it doesn’t make sense within their society, and if it was left in place, they’d have no eligible partners within their own kind.

On the claim that incest is undesirable because of favoritism, again, we seem to have fundamentally different views in play. Where I grew up, it was taken as granted that a partner would take precedence over a sibling when all else is equal, and in my own family unit I made no secret of the fact that I was closer to some of my siblings than others. They didn’t, either. That didn’t negatively impact our trust- we understood that’s how things stood, adjusted our expectations accordingly, and carried on with no more than the occasional youthful tantrum that it wasn’t fair that Sibling X gave Sibling Y more of his cookies than Sibling Z. If you count that as profound disillusionment that undermined the foundation of kinship… well, you grew up very differently than me, and I congratulate you on your charmed life.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)

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Posted by: Ardid.7203

Ardid.7203

I truly don’t think love can be so easy clasiffied and cuantified. I can (and do) love some people though multiple “categories”, each of them contributing to the whole, but not for that being “more” than the love I have for other people through less “categories”.

Mi girl is my sexual partner, my friend, my rival, my accomplice, and my fellow in many POVs about life, politics and religion, among MANY other roles. I love her for each one of them, in a different way. My little brother doesn’t fill so many categories as her, but I know I would have a terrible dilemma the day I should choose between them (Most likely I would simply not choose). Nowadays my mother fills maybe 3 categories at all… yet she is my mother.

How do I cuantify how much do I love each one? What about the other emotions they make me feel? I hate them a lot too… Do you think I would abandon any of them because that? If choosing between them were easy, a lot of the conflics in my life simply wouldn’t exist!

My point is simple: emotions, and specially love, are complex, everchanging and hard to define phenomena. They are not clear numbers you add.

“Only problem with the Engineer is
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks

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Posted by: Bazompora.2635

Bazompora.2635

Thank you, Ardid. It’s good to know I’m not the only one with such a “charmed” view.
Nevertheless, it’s quite in agreement with your point, that I am arguing that clear-cut inequality is introduced with incestuous love:
“categories” A + B > “category” A or “category” B
.

I would add that fertility is not an issue in same-sex relations, yet I have not yet heard of incestuous homosexual communities, despite generations of gay subculture. Empirically, there’s no negative correlation between fertility and incest.

Also, coming back on heritage, which in fact provides motive for incest, as inbreeding is a means to concentrate wealth, which is why landed gentry more often broke the taboo. Conversely, Bantu peoples have a history of expansion and are anti-incestuous to the point of being exogamous, frowning upon marriage between members of the same clan (the equivalent of the same last name in the western world), even if no shared ancestry is known.

Given that that they aren’t even built for reproduction, sylvari aren’t compelled to “go forth and multiply” their breed, existentially nor hormonally. So, even if their siblings are the only potential conquests, for incestuous romance to be commonplace, sylvari would have to be disposed to

  1. feel good
  2. not feel bad

… which then could also explain why as many as 1 in 8 sylvari are down with torture.

Elonians who know her history are often proud to have one of their own in the pantheon.

Why do Sylvari have romance?

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Posted by: Ardid.7203

Ardid.7203

My whole point was that “categories of emotion” are NOT additive. They aren’t even measurable! It doesn’t matter how many categories you put on one person, other person with less categories can be equally important to you.

Even worse: love is not the only thing that leads you to take a choice. Duty also exist, among a myriad of other similar principles. A couple being also brothers will not negate everything else in their lives, specially when their relationship exist in a place where the incest taboo doesn’t exist.

The correlation you are searching for is between reproduction and taboo. The incest taboo is stronger in real world humans because it has biological origins. Homosexuality creates a taboo because it doesn’t produce offsprings. Incest creates a taboo because it produce ill offsprings. Biologically, homosexuality have a minor cost to reproduction than incest.

However strong and ingrained, the taboo is still specific: to our species, in this world, on a certain timeframe (Yes, I think the incest taboo will dissapear along other fixed concepts about reproduction and family, just like the homosexuality taboo is actually disolving, the more our society drift away from our animal programming)

“Only problem with the Engineer is
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks

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Posted by: The Greyhawk.9107

The Greyhawk.9107

Anyone else getting disturbed by the direction this thread has taken?

Hate is Fuel.

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Posted by: Bazompora.2635

Bazompora.2635

For old times’ sake
.
.
.

My whole point was that “categories of emotion” are NOT additive. They aren’t even measurable! It doesn’t matter how many categories you put on one person, other person with less categories can be equally important to you.

Even worse: love is not the only thing that leads you to take a choice. Duty also exist, among a myriad of other similar principles. A couple being also brothers will not negate everything else in their lives, specially when their relationship exist in a place where the incest taboo doesn’t exist.

The correlation you are searching for is between reproduction and taboo. The incest taboo is stronger in real world humans because it has biological origins. Homosexuality creates a taboo because it doesn’t produce offsprings. Incest creates a taboo because it produce ill offsprings. Biologically, homosexuality have a minor cost to reproduction than incest.

However strong and ingrained, the taboo is still specific: to our species, in this world, on a certain timeframe (Yes, I think the incest taboo will dissapear along other fixed concepts about reproduction and family, just like the homosexuality taboo is actually disolving, the more our society drift away from our animal programming)

One mustn’t think in absolutes, but rather in the total picture:

  • chances are that the more bonds shared, the more importance given
  • duty exists in whatever measure, but love makes one neglectful therein
  • the ill effects weren’t well understood to result from inbreeding prior to modern science.

Correlation is not per se causation. As I mentioned before, incest can cause more accute problems for the group, than a larger minority of birth defects. Furthermore, in feudal cultures, where the division of land is a chief worry, incestuous relations have often been forced through arranged marriage.

But if the “incest taboo” has biological origins, then sylvari should have inherited it too, as the entirety of their emotions is purportedly of human origin. If them being infertile pod people and lacking in “animal programming” are arguments against the “incest taboo”, they also are arguments against romance altogether.

Elonians who know her history are often proud to have one of their own in the pantheon.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

But if the “incest taboo” has biological origins, then sylvari should have inherited it too, as the entirety of their emotions is purportedly of human origin. If them being infertile pod people and lacking in “animal programming” are arguments against the “incest taboo”, they also are arguments against romance altogether.

You seem to be missing our argument. We’re not saying ‘’incest is biologically problematic, therefore humans are inherently hardwired to avoid it.’’ We’re saying ‘’incest is biologically problematic, therefore the groups of humans who just happened to learn to object to it, over the long run, fared better than the groups of humans who just happened to not learn to object to it, and so the groups of humans who are around today object to incest.’’

But that’s beside the point. As I’ve already said- twice- I don’t believe sylvari emotions are “of human origin.” The closest anyone else has come to saying that is Rognik, whose claim was that sylvari might have imitated what they saw humans doing after they came into contact, not that their psychological framework was laser-copied over from a human source. I also earlier marked off social reasons why romance may be attractive, even in beings that don’t have biological reasons or “animal programming”.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)

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Posted by: castlemanic.3198

castlemanic.3198

I feel like I’m going to regret joining this conversation (especially because of the recent turn of events that took place) but whatever.

Firstly, the very idea that romance and sexuality are ultimately tied together is completely and laughably false as proven by the existence of asexual people who still partake in romantic relationships. While sexuality and romance can be tied together, and for many usually are, they are not inherently so because sexual orientation and romantic orientation are two separate things.

Right, now we have that out of the way, lets take a look at the incest argument shudder.

So, the incest taboo relies on the closeness of genetic ties resulting in many things going wrong with the children. Genetic closeness (i’m sure there’s a scientific term for it, i just don’t know it) happens as a result of familial relations. The genetic closeness would only cause a small amount of variation, due to the limited size of the genepool accessible to the children by the genes of their parents.

Now we get to the fun bit.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Physical_appearance/Sylvari

Here’s the link to all the sylvari physical appearance options.
Look at the huge variation of sylvari appearances available for the player to choose from. Genetically speaking, if the sylvari WERE tied closely genetically, we’d have a MUCH more limited variety of body types, skin tones, eye colours and literally every defining feature of the sylvari.

If the sylvari were THAT genetically close, so close as to warrant any argument of the incest taboo, they would all be green, have maybe two ‘hair’ styles, be all of a similar height, have similar style ears etc.etc.etc.

Just looking at two of those ‘hair’ styles, we have one that’s a bunch of branches and one that’s a freaking mushroom cap, those two hair styles could NOT come from genetic closeness no matter how hard you tried. It would be physically impossible without enough genetic tampering to eliminate genetic closeness.

Now, on to real world stuff. Have you ever heard of doppelgängers? Where two people from two different families can look exactly the same? I actually KNOW two people who are dopplegangers, one is arab, the other is canadian. SO, we now have the possibility of a wide range of physical genetics (remember, genetics contribute to a WHOLE lot more than physical appearances), and still wind up with two people who look exactly the same. So, you can throw out that argument of two characters looking exactly the same and, therefore, must have the same or similar genetics.

This whole argument, really, relies on the ability of the Pale Tree to be able to provide a wide set of genes to her children, so much wider than what two human parents would be able to provide their children. Realistic? Maybe not exactly, but we are talking about sentient plant people, and as such, realism is thrown out the window right away.

So now that we’ve established all of that, we have enough physical, genetic differences between two randomly chosen sylvari to get rid of the incest argument. The ONLY case where the taboo might genetically rise from is if two sylvari are born from the same pod, aka twins. We HAVE heard of twins, so we know they exist. But that’s the only legitimate case genetics wise.

(part 1 because of length of post)

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Posted by: castlemanic.3198

castlemanic.3198

Now, here’s where all of that is rooted into. Sylvari culture. We’ve covered that sexual orientation and romantic orientation are two different, separate things, we’ve covered the genetic root of taboo, now we delve into the cultural taboo.

The sylvari have an entirely different culture than humans. By the very fact that sylvari don’t worship the human gods, we already have probably the biggest split in culture that we can cover. Sylvari are also able to grow their own homes, one sylvari even made the design of the grove. That also creates a huge cultural difference between the sylvari and humans, because different cultures naturally create different architectures. This is true in humans even when there were similar building materials that resulted in widely different forms of architecture, this is especially true when it comes to humans that have very different materials available to create architecture. The sylvari grow every building they have, humans still use brick and mortar.

So now that we’ve established that, really, sylvari and human cultures are so vastly different from one another, we can now come to the taboo about incest. Since they have extremely different views on pretty much everything else from humans, they’d also have a different stance on who they see, culturally, as ‘family’. There’s a huge difference, considering that sylvari are infertile, and thus can’t have children, they can only choose from the other sylvari that are around them. Age is also seemingly something that isn’t a huge deal considering that the race is only 25 years old at most, and thus, only the firstborn are that old (actually, I think it’s 29 now because of the difference in time between when the game was released and now).

So, considering that sylvari will definitely view ‘family’ as something very different from what humans do, it is thus very easy to say that the sylvari would not have any fear of our standards of taboo.

Putting ALL of that together, we have every piece of evidence to conclude that romance can realistically exist in sylvari culture without any issues (aside from the twin thing but I don’t think that will ever come up in game).

(final part)

(edited by castlemanic.3198)

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

one sylvari even made the design of the grove (somebody please help me with who that sylvari was, I believe he was a firstborn).

By your request.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: castlemanic.3198

castlemanic.3198

Thank you! I appreciate it.

Why do Sylvari have romance?

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Posted by: The Greyhawk.9107

The Greyhawk.9107

To try to condense this, for all intense and purposes…its not incest. Sylvari aren’t actually siblings regardless of the fact they have a single source. From a mechanical perspective, the Pale Tree is their maker, their creator, not a parent in the sense that humans…that Animals have parents. While there are a many things about the sylvari that are similar to humans, there are just as many thing that make them completely alien to us. And in the end you can choose to accept this or to not.

Curious though why you linked to that ancient Guru thread…

Hate is Fuel.

Why do Sylvari have romance?

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Posted by: Bazompora.2635

Bazompora.2635

The Greyhawk, you’re saying the Pale Tree is not the parent of the sylvari,
but a mad genius, cloning cannon fodder, designer puppets and other test subjects,
after all?

You seem to be missing our argument. We’re not saying ‘’incest is biologically problematic, therefore humans are inherently hardwired to avoid it.’’ We’re saying ‘’incest is biologically problematic, therefore the groups of humans who just happened to learn to object to it, over the long run, fared better than the groups of humans who just happened to not learn to object to it, and so the groups of humans who are around today object to incest.’’

But that’s beside the point. As I’ve already said- twice- I don’t believe sylvari emotions are “of human origin.” The closest anyone else has come to saying that is Rognik, whose claim was that sylvari might have imitated what they saw humans doing after they came into contact, not that their psychological framework was laser-copied over from a human source. I also earlier marked off social reasons why romance may be attractive, even in beings that don’t have biological reasons or “animal programming”.

I still don’t see the advantage in prioritising pair bonds over communal bonds in social beings without individual fertility, as you did not elucidate beyond allusion.

I feel like I’m going to regret joining this conversation (especially because of the recent turn of events that took place) but whatever.

Firstly, the very idea that romance and sexuality are ultimately tied together is completely and laughably false as proven by the existence of asexual people who still partake in romantic relationships. While sexuality and romance can be tied together, and for many usually are, they are not inherently so because sexual orientation and romantic orientation are two separate things.

Right, now we have that out of the way,

No, we don’t.

While romance and sexuality are not the same, like eating and breathing, they are still evolutionary tied together. Romance maintains pair bonds, whereas sexuality regulates impregnation (unbridled heterosexuality is hazardous for a social species). Both sets of instincts are “K-selected” (intensive brood care rather than extensive breeding) through sexual reproduction in a highly competitive environment and further the K-strategy. The individual components, romance and sexual diversity, do not need to be linked directly, as they remain tied together in the population as a whole.
The Pale Tree, however, is an obvious r-strategist with her extensive, neglected and fast-maturing offspring, with an elevated probability of getting themselves killed through draconic predation. Romance is useless to her and moreso to her sylvari brood, that breeds nor raises infants.

Elonians who know her history are often proud to have one of their own in the pantheon.

Why do Sylvari have romance?

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Posted by: Bazompora.2635

Bazompora.2635

lets take a look at the incest argument shudder.

So, the incest taboo relies on the closeness of genetic ties resulting in many things going wrong with the children.

I’ll stop you right there, because the crux of my argument was that incest undermines the social fundaments of the family.
Besides, where incest would be normal, the higher rate of birth defects should be deemed normal too, which makes inbreeding too wishful a reason, for an ancient taboo that long precedes modern welfare.

Now we get to the fun bit.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Physical_appearance/Sylvari

Here’s the link to all the sylvari physical appearance options.
Look at the huge variation of sylvari appearances available for the player to choose from. Genetically speaking, if the sylvari WERE tied closely genetically, we’d have a MUCH more limited variety of body types, skin tones, eye colours and literally every defining feature of the sylvari.

If the sylvari were THAT genetically close, so close as to warrant any argument of the incest taboo, they would all be green, have maybe two ‘hair’ styles, be all of a similar height, have similar style ears etc.etc.etc.

Just looking at two of those ‘hair’ styles, we have one that’s a bunch of branches and one that’s a freaking mushroom cap, those two hair styles could NOT come from genetic closeness no matter how hard you tried. It would be physically impossible without enough genetic tampering to eliminate genetic closeness.

Now, on to real world stuff. Have you ever heard of doppelgängers? Where two people from two different families can look exactly the same? I actually KNOW two people who are dopplegangers, one is arab, the other is canadian. SO, we now have the possibility of a wide range of physical genetics (remember, genetics contribute to a WHOLE lot more than physical appearances), and still wind up with two people who look exactly the same. So, you can throw out that argument of two characters looking exactly the same and, therefore, must have the same or similar genetics.

This whole argument, really, relies on the ability of the Pale Tree to be able to provide a wide set of genes to her children, so much wider than what two human parents would be able to provide their children. Realistic? Maybe not exactly, but we are talking about sentient plant people, and as such, realism is thrown out the window right away.

So now that we’ve established all of that, we have enough physical, genetic differences between two randomly chosen sylvari to get rid of the incest argument. The ONLY case where the taboo might genetically rise from is if two sylvari are born from the same pod, aka twins. We HAVE heard of twins, so we know they exist. But that’s the only legitimate case genetics wise.

(part 1 because of length of post)

You have pointed out that sylvari possess a wide variety of phenotypes and that phenotypical similarities can conceal diverse genotypes. This does not, however, make a case for phenotypical diversity obliging genotypical diversity beyond those genes expressed in the phenotype.
To illustrate: Sub-Saharan Africans look quite different from white Europeans, but phenotypically share great continuity with Melanesians; yet Sub-Saharan Africans and Melanesians are genetically more divergent from eachother, than each is from white Europeans. Or take Negrito and mainland Asians, who look kittenid and mongoloid respectively, despite having closely related genotypes. Heck, we don’t even need to look on that large a scale, as even siblings can look convincingly unrelated.

Yet, if all sylvari are immaculate conceptions of the same mother, they share even more of the same genetic essence than non-twin siblings do. The phenotypical variation can furthermore be explained by epigenetic expressions of the same genes.

Elonians who know her history are often proud to have one of their own in the pantheon.

Why do Sylvari have romance?

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Posted by: Bazompora.2635

Bazompora.2635

The sylvari have an entirely different culture than humans. By the very fact that sylvari don’t worship the human gods, we already have probably the biggest split in culture that we can cover. Sylvari are also able to grow their own homes, one sylvari even made the design of the grove. That also creates a huge cultural difference between the sylvari and humans, because different cultures naturally create different architectures. This is true in humans even when there were similar building materials that resulted in widely different forms of architecture, this is especially true when it comes to humans that have very different materials available to create architecture. The sylvari grow every building they have, humans still use brick and mortar.

So now that we’ve established that, really, sylvari and human cultures are so vastly different from one another, we can now come to the taboo about incest. Since they have extremely different views on pretty much everything else from humans, they’d also have a different stance on who they see, culturally, as ‘family’. There’s a huge difference, considering that sylvari are infertile, and thus can’t have children, they can only choose from the other sylvari that are around them. Age is also seemingly something that isn’t a huge deal considering that the race is only 25 years old at most, and thus, only the firstborn are that old (actually, I think it’s 29 now because of the difference in time between when the game was released and now).

So, considering that sylvari will definitely view ‘family’ as something very different from what humans do, it is thus very easy to say that the sylvari would not have any fear of our standards of taboo.

Putting ALL of that together, we have every piece of evidence to conclude that romance can realistically exist in sylvari culture without any issues (aside from the twin thing but I don’t think that will ever come up in game).

(final part)

Cultural relativism has been thrown out before you joined the discussion. For, likewise, any reason why sylvari have romance in the first place is voided by it.

Elonians who know her history are often proud to have one of their own in the pantheon.

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Posted by: castlemanic.3198

castlemanic.3198

Multiple posts incomiiiiinnnngggggg.

No, we don’t.
-snip-

Yes, we do, because your argument here is fundamentally flawed and here’s why. You are comparing sexually reproducing non-sapient animal species with infertile sapient plant people that are the product of asexual reproduction. First of all, you’re attempting to bridge some sort of type gap between a plant and an animal. Those are two separate kingdoms of species. Secondly, you attempt at trying to tie non-sapient behaviour to sapient beings, which is so fundamentally flawed I don’t have the words to describe it. Unless you can point to sapient plant behaviour that mimics what you are discussing right now, you have no ground to stand on.

Also, if you WERE to compare sapient behaviour to sapient behaviour, here’s a few demographics that, evolutionarily, don’t work: Any non-heteronormative relationship, romantic asexuals, naturally polyamorous relationships (whether open or closed), couples where one or both partners are infertile, couples who form relationships when they are well beyond child rearing age (as an example, my dad got remarried to my step mom at age 59), people who cheat on their partners both sexually and romantically and try to maintain all relationships, people who form relationships after performing surgeries that make them unable to have children and probably more that disprove your ‘evolutionary’ argument. If we, as a sapient species, were to follow evolutionary patterns, we would strategically cull the weak, impaired and disabled. Want to know the most famous example of someone who’d be dead if we were to abide by evolutionary habits? Stephen freaking Hawking, Nobel Prize winner and one of the most famous and world renown physicists who has altered the very way we view the universe, thereby aiding scientific advancement in ways I can’t even tell you. So, if you can drop the evolutionary argument for a species that is sapient and therefore has morals that contradict evolutionary tendencies, that would be great and beneficial for everyone in this thread.

(part 1)

EDIT: because holy moly what kind of demon possession would make me forget the entire lgbt community as an example of romantic relationships that don’t abide by evolutionary rules

(edited by castlemanic.3198)

Why do Sylvari have romance?

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Posted by: castlemanic.3198

castlemanic.3198

I’ll stop you right there, because the crux of my argument was that incest undermines the social fundaments of the family.
Besides, where incest would be normal, the higher rate of birth defects should be deemed normal too, which makes inbreeding too wishful a reason, for an ancient taboo that long precedes modern welfare.

So now you’re changing your tactic from shoving non-sapient behaviour onto a sapient species to comparing sapient behaviour to a sapient species? You can’t have it both ways, because you are objectively contradicting your own argument by not sticking to one comparison. By not sticking to one comparison, you must then agree that it is insufficient to only look at one of two behavioural options when looking at what sylvari would realistically do. So which argument do you want to pursue?

Also, if we are to go with the evolution of human beings before modern society to look at, historically, why inbreeding doesn’t occur in humans, it would probably be because of birth defects. Birth defects would not only affect an individuals ability to hunt, feed itself etc.etc. but that individual would then become a liability to others of their social gathering (because they would require more effort, energy and food than they could provide for their peers). Remember, this is before, as you put it, modern human welfare, so as such, it is very easy to say that those humans simply left behind those who have birth defects, and they as a result most likely died off. It is extremely easy to then say that humans would acknowledge that, evolutionarily, inbreeding would lead to birth defects and therefore stemmed away from it. We now have a culture where simply leaving behind those who have birth defects to fend for themselves is morally objectionable and actually punishable. However, we still have the taboo of incest, which reduces the likelihood of birth defects.

So, your argument and seeming understanding of the matter are flawed.

(part 2)

Why do Sylvari have romance?

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Posted by: castlemanic.3198

castlemanic.3198

-snip- Heck, we don’t even need to look on that large a scale, as even siblings can look convincingly unrelated.

Yet, if all sylvari are immaculate conceptions of the same mother, they share even more of the same genetic essence than non-twin siblings do. The phenotypical variation can furthermore be explained by epigenetic expressions of the same genes.

Again, more flawed arguments due to seeming misunderstandings of how biology works. Non-twin siblings can look entirely different because they have a set of two genepools to pick from. That’s why there can be a huge physical appearance difference between two siblings, because the genetics tied to ourward appearances have a variety that they can choose from. We can even zoom in closer on twins, specifically dizygotic twins. Have you seen the news about the twin girls who are racially different . Now I’ll admit even that argument is flawed, because they didn’t come from the same egg, but from two separate eggs being fertilized, but it still shows that even when dizygotic twins can look similar, they can also look different. But the point stands. You are now trying to compare sexual reproduction to asexual reproduction. The Pale Tree isn’t mating with anyone. Here’s a fact. When something asexually reproduces, the child is a clone of the parent barring mutation. Now, compare the Pale Tree to the entire sylvari race. That is not clean asexual reproduction. That can hardly be called reproduction because the Pale Tree isn’t making smaller Pale Trees, the Pale Tree is consistently producing an entirely different species. This new species also has an extremely wide variety of genepools based solely on their outward appearances. It is therefore extremely easy to conclude that the Pale Tree has a wider variety of genes to give to the sylvari than any known form of biological reproduction. If you had ANY argument to stand on, it would be that the sylvari, biologically and evolutionarily, should not exist. However, this is a fantasy world and they do exist.

(Part 3)

Why do Sylvari have romance?

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Posted by: castlemanic.3198

castlemanic.3198

Cultural relativism has been thrown out before you joined the discussion. For, likewise, any reason why sylvari have romance in the first place is voided by it.

NO IT HAS NOT. The only person claiming such is you and the only time you do so is this very specific quote. To my knowledge, you have not convinced anyone that cultural relativism ‘has been thrown out’. In fact it’s extremely relevant because it shows that an entirely different culture would have different ideas on a lot of things, including sex, romance and what is taboo. So, if you feel that cultural relativism has no relevance in this discussion, kindly prove it.

EDIT: whoops, forgot to add

(final part (4/4))

(edited by castlemanic.3198)

Why do Sylvari have romance?

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Posted by: The Greyhawk.9107

The Greyhawk.9107

The Greyhawk, you’re saying the Pale Tree is not the parent of the sylvari,
but a mad genius, cloning cannon fodder, designer puppets and other test subjects,
after all?

No. I Didn’t say that in any way shape or form. Kindly Stop Putting Words In My kittening Mouth.

Conversing with you has to be one of the more surreal experiences I’ve had outside of mind-altering pharmaceuticals and epileptic clonic tonic seizures.

I specifically said “From a Mechanical perspective” as in how The Tree works on a physical level. The In-game story line does show the Tree as viewing the sylvari as her children, having genuine affection for them and going out of her way to NOT treat them like cannon fodder.
You’re statements about incest being hazardous to a families and society as a whole, while something I wouldn’t argue against in regards to Humans, is utterly irrelevant to the Sylvari since They don’t have actual families.

Hate is Fuel.

(edited by The Greyhawk.9107)

Why do Sylvari have romance?

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Posted by: Sartharina.3542

Sartharina.3542

Why are people trying to describe the magical plant people created in imitation of human life and existence in terms of non-Tyrian-based Real World science?

Why do Sylvari have romance?

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Posted by: The Greyhawk.9107

The Greyhawk.9107

Why are people trying to describe the magical plant people created in imitation of human life and existence in terms of non-Tyrian-based Real World science?

I don’t kittening know anymore. I mean, its one thing to look at this stuff for fun to try to understand it better (and as we are non-Tyrian real world people we’re going to look at it as such), but HOLY KITTEN have we gone WAY too far down the rabbit hole.

Hate is Fuel.

(edited by The Greyhawk.9107)

Why do Sylvari have romance?

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Posted by: castlemanic.3198

castlemanic.3198

Why are people trying to describe the magical plant people created in imitation of human life and existence in terms of non-Tyrian-based Real World science?

Honestly, I asked myself that very same question before I realised i actually cared about it. =p

The simplest answer is, of course, for immersion (coming PURELY from my own perspective, I claim to speak for no one but myself). It’s an ironic proposition, because looking into the science of why or why not something can happen can help increase the suspension of disbelief, because you can believe more of that world being real. While “magic did it” can and usually is enough of a factor for disbelief (otherwise, realistically, how do fire elementalists not burn themselves with their own fire magic, and that’s the tamest example), sometimes lorehounds (i would SAY like myself but i feel like i have such a lack of knowledge that the title, as it relates to gw2, doesnt apply to me) really like to dive into the nitty gritty of what makes a world tick, and that’s fun for us/them. That’s why theory and speculation is so much fun as well, it’s an attempt to understand the world more and see if what we view is actually real.

That’s, atleast, my personal view on the matter.

(Though no lie, sometimes I’ll see a flawed argument and feel the need to jump in =p)

Why do Sylvari have romance?

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

I still don’t see the advantage in prioritising pair bonds over communal bonds in social beings without individual fertility, as you did not elucidate beyond allusion.

It’s about emotional intimacy, it’s about building tight-knit social units, it’s about companionship,

I thought that was more than allusion, but to expand- intimacy begets trust. Trust allows cooperation on goals without wasting focus and energy hedging against unreliability or betrayal, it builds support to fall back on during times of hardship or loss, it forms the core of social networks and it allows others to compensate for your relative weaknesses and vice versa, strengthening both parties.

Additionally, intimacy maximizes on the boons of companionship. Shared enthusiasm often forms a positive feedback loop, which creates more excitement, more drive to accomplish things you’re passionate about, and more good feeling to buffer against the unpleasant aspects of life. Having someone to share burdens, or otherwise vent to, can ameliorate perceptions of isolation and futility that would exacerbate the problems, reduce the stress in instances where you’d previously been the only one pursuing a solution, and often also speed up emotional processing. Having others share in your experiences normalizes and destigmatizes activities you feel ashamed of, and having them affirm your recollection lends credibility in social situations.

Naturally, none of that requires romantic relationships, but romance does act as a force multiplier applied to the benefits derived from a single person. (Or multiple selected people, in polyamorous arrangements.) As many of these benefits only require a single other person, in purely dispassionate terms it maximizes on your investment.

That may be missing the point, though. Quite simply, love also (with some exceptions) feels plain good, and that can be an end-in-itself. We can debate ’til the sun goes cold and entropy swallows the universe why it feels good, but so long as it just does, many people will need no further reason to pursue it.

The Pale Tree, however, is an obvious r-strategist with her extensive, neglected and fast-maturing offspring, with an elevated probability of getting themselves killed through draconic predation. Romance is useless to her and moreso to her sylvari brood, that breeds nor raises infants.

The r-strategy is a model of genetic propagation. Unless the sylvari turn out to be mobile seed dispersal mechanisms, it can’t explain the Pale Tree’s rationale, and so its other implications- in this case, precluding traits associated with the k-strategy- don’t follow. Besides, her efforts to ensure her children learn what they need to survive and to shield them from their natural predator (i.e. Mordremoth) doesn’t match r-strategy neglect anyway.

I’ll stop you right there, because the crux of my argument was that incest undermines the social fundaments of the family.

I’ve been neglecting this point because I’ve been focusing on other aspects, but addressing your crux- there’s no reason to believe that the sylvari think of themselves as a family, not in the kinship unit variation that comes into play with the social aspect of incest. There are, conceivably, thousands of sylvari, or perhaps more, and they’re now dispersed over a range comparable to other races. The fact that they all continue to come from the same source, consider the same being to be their (admittedly distant) mother, and have a natural empathic connection to each other all serves to strengthen their racial bonds, but it’s a little absurd to say that they consider someone they’ve never met, whose name they’ve never heard of, whose face they’ve never seen, who is functionally a stranger to them, in the same manner that you or I might consider the siblings we spent most waking hours of every day with throughout our formative years. There is evidence that the sylvari form such kinship units, but while they’re more expansive than the American nuclear family, they still stop far, far short of encompassing the entire race.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)

Why do Sylvari have romance?

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Besides, where incest would be normal, the higher rate of birth defects should be deemed normal too,

I certainly agree. The evolutionary argument, then, would be that those groups that normalized it were outcompeted reproductively by the groups that didn’t, leading to one practice surviving to the modern day and the other not. I’m not sure I buy that argument, but the whole basis of evolutionary theory is that there’s competition between various traits and approaches, not that an entire species seizes on one and makes the best of it forever after.

Cultural relativism has been thrown out before you joined the discussion. For, likewise, any reason why sylvari have romance in the first place is voided by it.

This isn’t a binary choice between importing something wholesale or having none of it. When things manifest independently, it stands to reason that it’ll manifest similarly in some places to reflect fundamental similarities and differently in others to reflect fundamental differences. The sylvari, with the fundamental difference of infertility and the fundamental similarity of a psychology mirroring humans, would naturally manifest the social aspects of romance while not manifesting the sexual ones- including the taboo on incest.

When things are instead adopted, which I expect is largely what happened with sylvari and romance, you’re closer to the mark: things will be imported wholesale except where there’s specific reason to make a change. In this case, the sylvari have specific reason to drop the incest taboo- it doesn’t make sense within their society, and if it was left in place, they’d have no eligible partners within their own kind.

I might not have applied that particular label to it in as many words, but I, for one, most certainly haven’t thrown it out.

Why are people trying to describe the magical plant people created in imitation of human life and existence in terms of non-Tyrian-based Real World science?

A combination of enjoying the intellectual exercise, and sincere curiosity in trying to comprehend where Bazompora is coming from. I suspect what we’re seeing is a clash of unspoken underlying assumptions, but I haven’t been able to deduce theirs to my satisfaction yet.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: castlemanic.3198

castlemanic.3198

I certainly agree. The evolutionary argument, then, would be that those groups that normalized it were outcompeted reproductively by the groups that didn’t, leading to one practice surviving to the modern day and the other not. I’m not sure I buy that argument, but the whole basis of evolutionary theory is that there’s competition between various traits and approaches, not that an entire species seizes on one and makes the best of it forever after.

Isn’t the theory of evolution about survival of the fittest? As in those who adapt to the situation would survive whereas those who couldn’t die out? Isn’t that basically the reason why different species exist in different climes? and those advantageous traits would change naturally over time because some traits would become more beneficial than others and then those traits would be replaced by others forever after? Until of course the rise of modern man, where we have a moral belief that we should not cull those who don’t adapt as well as others and instead care for them as much as we can.

Also if incest were evolutionarily beneficial, wouldn’t we see more of it in animal species?

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

I certainly agree. The evolutionary argument, then, would be that those groups that normalized it were outcompeted reproductively by the groups that didn’t, leading to one practice surviving to the modern day and the other not. I’m not sure I buy that argument, but the whole basis of evolutionary theory is that there’s competition between various traits and approaches, not that an entire species seizes on one and makes the best of it forever after.

Isn’t the theory of evolution about survival of the fittest? As in those who adapt to the situation would survive whereas those who couldn’t die out? Isn’t that basically the reason why different species exist in different climes? and those advantageous traits would change naturally over time because some traits would become more beneficial than others and then those traits would be replaced by others forever after? Until of course the rise of modern man, where we have a moral belief that we should not cull those who don’t adapt as well as others and instead care for them as much as we can.

Also if incest were evolutionarily beneficial, wouldn’t we see more of it in animal species?

To be clear, my argument there is that incest isn’t evolutionarily beneficial under historical conditions, and that’s why we don’t see it in our species. (Truth be told, I have no idea what the incidence looks like in animals.) I was mainly pointing out that under Bazompora’s hypothetical, the incest taboo could still win out for genetic reasons, even without our ancestors having the modern scientific framework to be aware of them.

But yes, that’s essentially correct… with the caveat that ‘fittest’ in this case is a measure of the resilience of the genetic line under a given set of conditions. What natural selection ‘selects’ for is successful reproduction, and the survival of the resulting progeny long enough to reproduce themselves. It’s not oriented towards individual survival beyond the point of reproduction, and individual adaptations that promote survival only stick around if they’re based in genetics or if they’re learned behaviors taught to the offspring.

Incidentally, natural selection is still at work in modern humans as well- it’s just that we’ve changed our environment so drastically over the last few millennia that the pressures we’re currently ‘adapting’ to are unprecedented. We may be working to ensure that individuals vulnerable to those pressures aren’t being personally culled by them, but that doesn’t necessarily mean we’re having their kids.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)

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Posted by: castlemanic.3198

castlemanic.3198

To be clear, my argument there is that incest isn’t evolutionarily beneficial under historical conditions, and that’s why we don’t see it in our species. (Truth be told, I have no idea what the incidence looks like in animals.) I was mainly pointing out that under Bazompora hypothetical, the incest taboo could still went out for genetic reasons, without our ancestors being aware of them.

But yes, that’s essentially correct… with the caveat that ‘fittest’ in this case is a measure of the resilience of the genetic line under a given set of conditions. What natural selection ‘selects’ for is successful reproduction, and the survival of the resulting progeny long enough to reproduce themselves. It’s not oriented towards individual survival beyond the point of reproduction, and individual adaptations that promote survival only stick around if they’re based in genetics or if they’re taught to the offspring.

Incidentally, natural selection is still at work in modern humans as well- it’s just that we’ve changed our environment so drastically over the last couple millennia that the pressures we’re currently ‘adapting’ to are unprecedented. We may be working to ensure that individuals vulnerable to those pressures aren’t being personally culled by them, but that doesn’t necessarily mean we’re having their kids.

Ah okay, thanks for clearing that up!

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Posted by: Tatsuya.9071

Tatsuya.9071

Are you assuming the Plant People genders? DansGame

Why do Sylvari have romance?

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Posted by: castlemanic.3198

castlemanic.3198

Are you assuming the Plant People genders? DansGame

I’m not sure what the gender of an individual sylvari has to do with the topic at hand. Could you please clarify?