Guild Wars 2

I read somewhere that Elder Dragons were supposed to be big. I think it was Kalkattorik that was mistaken for a mountain? And Zhaitan was supposed to have raised Orr on his back.

Yet…. when we meet Zhaitan, he’s… big but not that big. Certainly not big enough to raise continents. From the size of him, I doubt he’d even be able to raise Malchor’s Leap, let alone all of Orr.

I guess maybe he could be really, really strong… or maybe we can just chalk it up to magic?

We always see him from a distance, never up close and personal, and we see him in comparison to a Pact Flagship.

We also starved him so he probably didn’t look like how he did from when he rose Orr. And Orr isn’t a continent, mind you, but a peninsula. Tyria is the continent.

Zhaitan is actually larger than some versions of the Enterprise from Star Trek.

https://40.media.tumblr.com/e9e443d351fe47ea29d3234753ba1589/tumblr_nr8kkrNBkG1sd0pf4o1_1280.png

https://www.reddit.com/r/GuildwarsLore/comments/3cpuza/zhaitan_was_larger_than_a_starship_designed_to_go/

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Zhaitan's_Size.jpg

The last one also includes Zhaitan’s “original death model” which was supposed to be seen in Arah explorable but was taken out.

“Magic”.

Also, as Konig said, it was discovered that Zhaitan is lengthwise a little bit shorter then the Enterprise D from star trek, some 500 meters long or so (for Zhaitan).

He may have been rather scrawny, but he’s not small.

I hope we get a size chart for Mordremoth soon. I would like to know how he stacks up against old Snakeface McRotguzzler.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I hope we get a size chart for Mordremoth soon. I would like to know how he stacks up against old Snakeface McRotguzzler.

I’ve not seen anything from that guy who did the scaling in a while. Was hoping for a scale of the normal airships.

Kalavier.1097:

He may have been rather scrawny, but he’s not small.

I’d say for a dragon made out of zombie dragons he looked pretty buff :P

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I hope we get a size chart for Mordremoth soon.

You mean the mouth? It’s stated in game that all those large vines you see are part of Mordremoth, that means he covers most of Magus Falls and stretches all the way into the Iron Marches.

CureForLiving.5360:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I hope we get a size chart for Mordremoth soon.

You mean the mouth? It’s stated in game that all those large vines you see are part of Mordremoth, that means he covers most of Magus Falls and stretches all the way into the Iron Marches.

Yeah that’s what I ment. Counting all the vines would be a little excessive I think. Also we would have to count the mouths and eyes of Zhaitan too then, atleas in my opinion, since they seem to be quasi part of Zhaitan, like the vines are to Mordremoth.

CureForLiving.5360:

You mean the mouth? It’s stated in game that all those large vines you see are part of Mordremoth, that means he covers most of Magus Falls and stretches all the way into the Iron Marches.

It seems to me more that those vines are “grown from” but not “Mordremoth’s actual body”. And it’s just that his mind exists across all of his corruption, so simply destroying his ‘actual body’ (aka the Mouth of Mordremoth) is insufficient as he’d just regrow said body from his corruption like he reproduces the same mordrem by transferring their mind to a regrown body.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Yeah that’s what I ment. Counting all the vines would be a little excessive I think. Also we would have to count the mouths and eyes of Zhaitan too then, atleas in my opinion, since they seem to be quasi part of Zhaitan, like the vines are to Mordremoth.

I could see the argument that the eye which Eyes of Zhaitan hold are part of Zhaitan, plucked from one of Zhaitan’s many undead faces, but I don’t see how one could argue such for the Mouth of Zhaitan.

I don’t think this will ever be addressed again by Arena Net, the whole Zhaitan campaign clearly seems to be a mistake, because they’ve completely scrapped that form of design. Arah was originally supposed to feature his corpse that covered a very large portion of the map, the dragon was supposed to be vastly larger than it was. It’s tail is shown in the priory headquarters, to me it seemed a little bigger than when you actually fight him, it could just be an illusion… but I think it could just be an attempt to blow his scale back up.

The reality is boring, they maybe ran out of budget or time, maybe it wasn’t within the scope of the campaign, it wouldn’t really make sense to kill Zhaitan how we did if he was much bigger than he was, changing that would once again cost time and money. It could be a hardware issue or something, a moving model like that uses a ton of vertices and such, animating that would be a nightmare, I’m sure animating the dragon we saw wasn’t easy.

To add to this, we got the Mouth of Mordremoth, which seems to be a lot bigger than Zhaitan, but it’s basically a long snake and has a relatively generic design, Zhaitan’s design was at least complex, even though size was sacrificed.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It seems to me more that those vines are “grown from” but not “Mordremoth’s actual body”.

A bit of semantics here, do you mean the vines were grown from and then separated from his body, or are still physically connected? In the later case I’d argue they are part of his body.

Mushroomz.4280:

I don’t think this will ever be addressed again by Arena Net, the whole Zhaitan campaign clearly seems to be a mistake, because they’ve completely scrapped that form of design. Arah was originally supposed to feature his corpse that covered a very large portion of the map, the dragon was supposed to be vastly larger than it was. It’s tail is shown in the priory headquarters, to me it seemed a little bigger than when you actually fight him, it could just be an illusion… but I think it could just be an attempt to blow his scale back up.

To add to this, we got the Mouth of Mordremoth, which seems to be a lot bigger than Zhaitan, but it’s basically a long snake and has a relatively generic design, Zhaitan’s design was at least complex, even though size was sacrificed.

Do note, for scale, we don’t get a good shot of him. He’s almost always moving, and his ingame model literally scales out to 500 some meters. That’s still pretty dang huge, even if his original model’s head, neck and shoulders were basically the same size. The one time he’s staying still, he’s pretty big and again, we don’t know the actual size of that tower.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I could see the argument that the eye which Eyes of Zhaitan hold are part of Zhaitan, plucked from one of Zhaitan’s many undead faces, but I don’t see how one could argue such for the Mouth of Zhaitan.

I ment that in the way that Zhaitan’s magical connection to the eyes and mouths seems stronger than even to his other champions. When we kill one we can hear him roar, which could interpreted as him actually feeling it physically. Also it says he actually sees through the eyes and feeds through the mouths. So I’d say despite not having a physical connection they are part of Zhaitan’s body like all these vines are part of Mordremoth’s body.

CureForLiving.5360:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It seems to me more that those vines are “grown from” but not “Mordremoth’s actual body”.

A bit of semantics here, do you mean the vines were grown from and then separated from his body, or are still physically connected? In the later case I’d argue they are part of his body.

Would you consider hair to be part of the human body? It can be detached without any form of pain to the individual. Fingernails as well.

So yeah, a bit of semantics, but I would compare it to hair or fingernails. Grown out of the body, can remain attached or detached.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I ment that in the way that Zhaitan’s magical connection to the eyes and mouths seems stronger than even to his other champions. When we kill one we can hear him roar, which could interpreted as him actually feeling it physically. Also it says he actually sees through the eyes and feeds through the mouths. So I’d say despite not having a physical connection they are part of Zhaitan’s body like all these vines are part of Mordremoth’s body.

I can agree with the stronger magical connection – that seems pretty evident. However, I disagree on the feeling physical pain because Zhaitan roars when Whiting is killed in the novel (as do all risen roar in unison).

Zhaitan knows what all his minions know and dragon minions in general consume magic. The Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan were just specialized to do these things all risen do, but much much better.

I kinda took the revelation that Mordremoth is the jungle itself as all four zones in Maguuma, from Verdant Brink to Dragon’s Stand, is the dragon itself.

Regardless, I think it’s safe to say that Mordremoth may be the largest elder dragon we’ve met so far.

That comparison chart to the Enterprise is pretty cool. I remember how in awe of his appearance I was that first time, regardless of the mechanics of the fight.

Also, in terms of the OP’s title. Father Ted explains it pretty well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS12p0Zqlt0

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I hope we get a size chart for Mordremoth soon. I would like to know how he stacks up against old Snakeface McRotguzzler.

We got a size chart now: http://imgur.com/GbG7BI5

Credit to that_shaman.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I hope we get a size chart for Mordremoth soon. I would like to know how he stacks up against old Snakeface McRotguzzler.

We got a size chart now: http://imgur.com/GbG7BI5

Credit to that_shaman.

You know, maybe it’s cuz I’m looking at this chart from my phone while I’m on my break at work, but I kinda expected Mordy to look a little different based on how they described him in game.

Well that’s the Mouth of Mordremoth to be exact, his phyical manifestation you fight in the Dragon’s Stand meta event. I heard a few people complaining about him looking underwhelming, but I honestly like the design. He kind of looks like a chinese dragon made out of wood and vines.

I think people complained because he looks like a chinese dragon. :P

That’s the cool thing about it imho, but I admit I’m a bit sinophile. :>

Edit: I just thought about something, isn’t a bit weird that we get an asian looking dragon in an otherwise more mayan-aztec inspired expansion? But the MoM doesn’t just look like a chinese dragon, he also looks very much like a planty version of Quetzalcoatl.

I would say the face looks more like the parade whatchamacallit variation of a Chinese Dragon. Compare:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/c/c6/Mouth_of_Mordremoth.jpg

http://img.sparknotes.com/content/sparklife/sparktalk/2014/cny_LargeWide.jpg

Or any of these, really

To be akin to Quetzalcoatl, I think Mordremoth’s head would have to look more snake-like, with more ‘feather’ looking parts along the body rather than something that’s very… flat and repetative. Perhaps making him look like a gargantuan Krait Devouss from GW1, but less viper-like in the teeth.

Mind, I don’t disagree that makes him look rather awesome. I personally love the appearance of the Mouth of Mordremoth, even if it feels more like we should be calling him an “Elder Snake” than “Elder Dragon” but I’ve always seen the ‘dragon’ name to be a bit of a misnomer ever since Edge of Destiny and especially with seeing Zhaitan.

Though I think making him a massive Dragon Moss would have been awesome as well. But that’s also what I was expecting. :P

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mind, I don’t disagree that makes him look rather awesome. I personally love the appearance of the Mouth of Mordremoth, even if it feels more like we should be calling him an “Elder Snake” than “Elder Dragon” but I’ve always seen the ‘dragon’ name to be a bit of a misnomer ever since Edge of Destiny and especially with seeing Zhaitan.

Well in older text the words “snake” and “dragon” are interchangeable. I’m not sure how it’s in the King James Bible, but in the german Luther Bible for example the dragon of apocalypse is never referred to as a dragon, it is always called “Schlange”, so snake. IIRC the word snake is even used in the german version (not sure about the english one) of “The Hobbit” (the book) for Smaug, though not exclusively. In that way I’m actually almost more surprised we don’t see snake-like dragons more often. It’s usually only when they are supposed to look asian.

And for the reason I was thinking Quetzalcoatl, aside from the overall theme of the expansion: I think it Mordy’s face. It has a lot of edge to it, I would describe it as somewhat geometric. It remindes me more of something like this https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b3/5d/70/b35d70dd30419e990559bb36055cc39b.jpg than the a bit more rounded asian dragons.
The feathers as a defining feature of the mesoamerican dragon are definitely missing though. Mordremoth would need some kind of leaves as mock feathers to make the look complete.

Isn’t that last link from the GW1 Tarnished Coast ruins + Central Transfer Chamber?

Creates an interesting thought. Though we know that Mordremoth’s design wasn’t made at that point (2007 art has him else how).

My link? It’s just a random google search for “feathered snake”. I just wanted to demonstrate how a typical mesoamerican dragon looks, especially the face.

Going back to the original questin question our “why stores Zhatian seem so small” I was thinking that perhaps He used to be bigger.

Most of the Zhaitan we fight is tail. The parts that are not tail are undead dragons bunched around tails. Since most of his champs are also undead dragons, I think it is reasonable to assume that those champs may have literally come from zhaitan.

Afterall, we fight a starved and desperate zhaitan, so he may have been shedding champs like crazy for his defense with insufficient magic to replenish himself (I imagine how Necros summon minions, but on a larger scale) . Sri just imagine the tail address filled with an undead Dragon body with perhaps undead Dragon limbs.

He might have been close to twice as big if that theory holds true.

Even more scaling! Credit again to that_shaman.

I think both Zhaitan and Mordremoth look small. aNet never really delivered that one shot that made you go “Holy kitten… look at the size of that thing”. At least in my opinion. The scaling picture makes Mordemoth look huge if he’s based off a Chinese dragon – we don’t see his hands or feet in that picture, which means it’s possible there’s a very large portion of him we don’t ever see.

I mean, I imagined something otherworldly if they were capable of affecting things on a continental size. Maybe there was a believability aspect to it – we have to kill these things, after all.

Out of the ones that are left – I’d say Jormag and Bubbles have the greatest chance of being the largest we’ve seen.

Primordious will most likely be taken on underground – I think he’ll be downscaled in size to make it more comfortable. Kralkatorik was badly injured last time we heard about him – though he was supposed to be utterly massive prior to launch.

Jormag though seems to me to be in a wide open mountain area in the Far Shiverpeaks – lots of open sky, and Bubbles has an Ocean for a playground in theory.

Of course – that’s if we even face off with another Dragon in GW2. I got money on 1 more (Kralkatorik) and that’s it.

Well the issue with making your enemies huge is that unless they are what you’re fighting on/inside, the fights are just ridiculous. As the joke goes: “Here, let me trim your toenails until you’re dead.”

So I think it’s expected that in lore Zhaitan and Mordremoth are much larger – it’s just that you can’t really depict their true size without the issue of it seeming silly. This is no doubt why we fought the Marionette indirectly.

That said, in regard to size scaling, both in-lore and in game I’m expecting smallest to largest to be: Primordus → Zhaitan → Mordremoth → Jormag → Kralkatorrik → DSD

I would like to see a comparison of Jormag’s tooth to the head of Zhaitan/Mordremoth, but from what I recall of going to Mordremoth’s corpse at the end of the event chain, Jormag’s tooth is about the height of Mordremoth’s jaw (half of his head).

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Even more scaling! Credit again to that_shaman.

It’s nice, but completely lacks actual size labels <_<.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Well the issue with making your enemies huge is that unless they are what you’re fighting on/inside, the fights are just ridiculous. As the joke goes: “Here, let me trim your toenails until you’re dead.”

So I think it’s expected that in lore Zhaitan and Mordremoth are much larger – it’s just that you can’t really depict their true size without the issue of it seeming silly. This is no doubt why we fought the Marionette indirectly.

That said, in regard to size scaling, both in-lore and in game I’m expecting smallest to largest to be: Primordus -> Zhaitan -> Mordremoth -> Jormag -> Kralkatorrik -> DSD

I would like to see a comparison of Jormag’s tooth to the head of Zhaitan/Mordremoth, but from what I recall of going to Mordremoth’s corpse at the end of the event chain, Jormag’s tooth is about the height of Mordremoth’s jaw (half of his head).

Course, even ingame Zhaitan is just a bit shorter then the Enterprise D from Star Trek, which was a starhip capable of housing thousands of people.

But your statement is exactly why I laugh at people who suggest a more personal Zhaitan fight. “So wait, how are five random kittens going to beat an elder dragon that is 500 meters long? Our weapons, even for norn, aren’t even going to pierce scale at hit flesh most likely!”

Why I felt the Tequatl fight was fairly well done. It’s an army, using siege weapons to bring the dragon down.

Honestly, the size thing is why I found the climactic battle of Edge of Destiny strange… How is a spear thrown by a charr going to pierce Kralkatorrik’s heart? Or is its heart practically beating against his skin? I suppose that’s possible, and Glint did direct to a specific location.

Hmmm….

I could see fighting Kralkatorrik to be a fight where we attack a sole weak-spot to beat through crystal scales (which are pulsing to a rhythm) after which we see the exposed beating heart of Kralkatorrik. That would allow us to have us fight a mountain-sized foe with wings that block out the sun and make it reasonable. To a degree.

Kalavier.1097:

It’s nice, but completely lacks actual size labels <_<.

Well there is Kasmeer for scale and as we all know she is a “unit of measurement.”

Sorry for the double post, technical difficulties…