Guild Wars 2

The story has focused a lot on Glint 2.0 and a quasi Mursaat despite the fact we still have a benevolent dragon champion. The last thing that emphasized the Pale Tree’s potential influence was seeing her in All. There are so many unanswered questions.

• How long is she going to be in recovery?
• Will she better humanity with her mind powers?
• Why doesn’t she teach Taimi how to to make a Jormag version of Caladbolg instead of this machine nonesense?
• Why doesn’t she train to expand her ability to process the Dream, especially the prophetic parts?

• How long is she going to be in recovery?
  -As long as the story needs her to be. New sylvari are being born now, so she’s already on the mend.
• Will she better humanity with her mind powers?
  -Who says she has any mind powers outside of the Dream? Also that is a very human-centric question. The norn, asura and charr are also suffering here!
• Why doesn’t she teach Taimi how to to make a Jormag version of Caladbolg instead of this machine nonsense?
  -A) Taimi never asked. Taimi isn’t part icebrood and thus can’t craft a Jormag-style weapon. C) I don’t think it’s that easy to craft a legendary weapon.
• Why doesn’t she train to expand her ability to process the Dream, especially the prophetic parts?
  -You don’t know what the Pale Tree is doing when we’re not around her. She might be trying to expand it and failing, and just not telling us about the failures. Also, the Dream is not this mystical “solve everything” realm you seem to think it is.

• As Rognik says, as long as ArenaNet decides it will take. We have no information to suggest how long it takes a Pale Tree to recover from such injuries.

• Also as Rognik says, there’s no evidence that her mind powers extend beyond the Dream. Maybe they do, but if she has Glint’s ability to read every mind on the continent, she hasn’t demonstrated it, and some things she’s failed to act on suggests that she doesn’t even have that level of ability with the sylvari.

• D) The method the Pale Tree used to create Caladbolg isn’t really useful to Taimi. E) It’s possible that Caladbolg employed, at least in part, an antipathy between plant and death magic, and the Pale Tree lacks the ability to exploit the Jormag-Primordus antipathy. F) The Pale Tree is still recovering. G) The Pale Tree would intervene, if she knew what Taimi planned (related to A and F).

• As Rognik says, it’s entirely likely that she is and we just don’t hear about it. The Pale Tree plays her cards close to her… trunk. Plus, she’s still recovering from her injuries.

Actually, after you restore Caladbolg, you will learn that the Pale Tree has shown significant improvement in its health according to Mender Aine:

Mender Aine: The Pale Mother seems to have recovered significantly, and I believe we have your efforts to thank for that, Valiant.
Player Character: Is she fully recovered?
MA: Her avatar is awake, but it is simply a means for her to interact with us. The Tree is still hurt, on levels I do not claim to understand. I urge you to not overtax her attention.
PC: Of course, I won’t keep her from her rest for long.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mender_Aine

Which goes along the lines of “as long as ArenaNet decides she will”.

But she isn’t this end-all-be-all powerful figure. She cannot foretell the exact future, especially not at all times (else she would have foreseen the attack on the World Summit), and she doesn’t show any mental capabilities beyond her ties to the Dream which is literally an insignificant portion of the Dream that expands barely beyond the sylvari’s collective memories (the only cases of her knowing more than sylvari know is with A Light in the Darkness and with her ties to Mordremoth).

You’re talking about the Pale Tree as if she’s some plot device fully capable of solving – or giving the solutions for solving – all of GW2’s plots issues, but she isn’t. It’s kind of like asking why Jennah doesn’t go toe to toe against the Elder Dragons because she’s so powerful – she actually tried and got her kitten mentally handed to her, and besides that she has a nation to run and (until now) had to keep it out of a megalomaniac who would kitten the world for his greed of power’s hands.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But she isn’t this end-all-be-all powerful figure. She cannot foretell the exact future, especially not at all times (else she would have foreseen the attack on the World Summit), and she doesn’t show any mental capabilities beyond her ties to the Dream which is literally an insignificant portion of the Dream that expands barely beyond the sylvari’s collective memories (the only cases of her knowing more than sylvari know is with A Light in the Darkness and with her ties to Mordremoth).

Or maybe she is, and simply played out a series of calculated losses to unite the world against her former master. Would the pact have gotten as much support as they did without the attack on the world summit?

Westenev.5289:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But she isn’t this end-all-be-all powerful figure. She cannot foretell the exact future, especially not at all times (else she would have foreseen the attack on the World Summit), and she doesn’t show any mental capabilities beyond her ties to the Dream which is literally an insignificant portion of the Dream that expands barely beyond the sylvari’s collective memories (the only cases of her knowing more than sylvari know is with A Light in the Darkness and with her ties to Mordremoth).

Or maybe she is, and simply played out a series of calculated losses to unite the world against her former master. Would the pact have gotten as much support as they did without the attack on the world summit?

That’s an interesting point. If true, she may have jeopardized her own life to get the nations to work against Mordy. That takes balls.

If she knew the attack was coming, she could have secretly ensured greater security without notifying the other leaders. However, they had already agreed to help by the time of the attack, so the attack did little to ensure their support (not that it really amounted to much in the fight against Mordremoth in the first place); if she had foreseen the events well enough, she would have foreseen that as well.

So I’d stick with the argument that she didn’t know, because the Dream isn’t as all telling as that. It’s far from that accurate, either, given how different A Light in the Darkness is from actual events.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Which goes along the lines of “as long as ArenaNet decides she will”.

But she isn’t this end-all-be-all powerful figure. She cannot foretell the exact future, especially not at all times (else she would have foreseen the attack on the World Summit), and she doesn’t show any mental capabilities beyond her ties to the Dream which is literally an insignificant portion of the Dream that expands barely beyond the sylvari’s collective memories (the only cases of her knowing more than sylvari know is with A Light in the Darkness and with her ties to Mordremoth).

You’re talking about the Pale Tree as if she’s some plot device fully capable of solving – or giving the solutions for solving – all of GW2’s plots issues, but she isn’t. It’s kind of like asking why Jennah doesn’t go toe to toe against the Elder Dragons because she’s so powerful – she actually tried and got her kitten mentally handed to her, and besides that she has a nation to run and (until now) had to keep it out of a megalomaniac who would kitten the world for his greed of power’s hands.

I am not saying she is the solution for everything. I am saying no one considers her a solution at all.

Is the term dragon champion that broad in describing power? Did it ever tell us in the story the Glint was on the level of the Great Destroyer and the Pale Tree is no more than an Octovine?

Speaking of plot devices, Aurene has foreshadowed greatness and people are already theorizing about her absorbing/expelling magic.

We see the Pale Tree prominently in the All and we assume we know all that signifies in the story.

And its the little things as well. Wouldn’t the priory study the Dream and/or the Pale Tree? Have race relations destroyed all Asuran curiosity?

There is a giant talking tree, and a bunch of psychically connected smaller trees, and everyone is completely uninterested.

Daniel Handler.4816:

And its the little things as well. Wouldn’t the priory study the Dream and/or the Pale Tree? Have race relations destroyed all Asuran curiosity?

There is a giant talking tree, and a bunch of psychically connected smaller trees, and everyone is completely uninterested.

Isn’t there lore already establishing that the asura and the sylvari had a rough start BECAUSE the sylvari were sentient plant things and the asura both used them as manual labour AND experimented on them ceaselessly?

Or was that lore that was never touched upon again?

Or was I just imagining that? I’m pretty sure I’m not.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I am not saying she is the solution for everything. I am saying no one considers her a solution at all.

Because she isn’t a solution. She may be part of several solutions, but being a giant tree, she can’t exactly get up and attack anyone.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Speaking of plot devices, Aurene has foreshadowed greatness and people are already theorizing about her absorbing/expelling magic.

This one is slightly more credible, as we saw the egg absorb at least part of Mordremoth’s energy after his death. We haven’t learned of any other creature (besides the new destroyers and that one icebrood) absorbing the magic of defeated dragons.

Daniel Handler.4816:

And its the little things as well. Wouldn’t the priory study the Dream and/or the Pale Tree? Have race relations destroyed all Asuran curiosity?

As castle said, the asura did study the sylvari when they first starting spreading out. The trouble is that, back then, they just experimented on the sylvari without really knowing what they were. Now that sylvari are somewhat accepted, and knowledge of the Dream is somewhat known, we face the problem of how exactly do you study the Dream? Even if you have an all-sylvari team, they can’t test the Dream, they can’t return to the Dream, and those still in the Dream can’t be reached until they emerge. It’s not practical to study it.

Daniel Handler.4816:

There is a giant talking tree, and a bunch of psychically connected smaller trees, and everyone is completely uninterested.

1. Sylvari are not small trees, but mobile plants.
2. What exactly do you want done? Yeah, there’s a race of plants, but they aren’t more powerful than any other race that we can measure. We also know they are dragon minions, and their dragon is now dead. How much more can they help in a fight?

Rognik.2579:

Because she isn’t a solution. She may be part of several solutions, but being a giant tree, she can’t exactly get up and attack anyone.

Wouldn’t that be hilarious/amazing to watch though.

This one is slightly more credible, as we saw the egg absorb at least part of Mordremoth’s energy after his death. We haven’t learned of any other creature (besides the new destroyers and that one icebrood) absorbing the magic of defeated dragons.

Wait, didn’t the elder dragons absorb the magic and then create their minions which now have those other areas of dragon influence? Icebrood are way south of Jormag, yet there’s only one instance of icebrood having any sort of additional dragon corruption beyond frost (conveniently, this lone icebrood was closer to Jormag, providing evidence of such).

Sorry for the nitpick.

Even if you have an all-sylvari team, they can’t test the Dream, they can’t return to the Dream, and those still in the Dream can’t be reached until they emerge. It’s not practical to study it.

False! Caithe is actually able to see and influence the dream through the aid of the pale tree in the sylvari tutorial zone and also in atleastone of the subsequent story missions (white stag biography choice, Caithe actually mentions seeing the white stag in YOUR dream). There’s also the subsequent trip into the dream where the player and Trahearn frolick joyfully through Orr in the dream (again through the influence of the pale tree).

So yeah, the dream isn’t something that we can’t touch. It IS however difficult to view (though maybe Omadds machine may help with this if it doesn’t traumatize those who walk in too much).

Rognik.2579:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Speaking of plot devices, Aurene has foreshadowed greatness and people are already theorizing about her absorbing/expelling magic.

This one is slightly more credible, as we saw the egg absorb at least part of Mordremoth’s energy after his death. We haven’t learned of any other creature (besides the new destroyers and that one icebrood) absorbing the magic of defeated dragons.

Actually, I recall when Teakettle got buffed and reworked, Anet gave the absorption of power from Zhaitan’s death as a lore reason for said buff.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I am not saying she is the solution for everything. I am saying no one considers her a solution at all.

Because she has – until the very latest situation been completely unconscious.

Let’s say the leader of a nation gets shot, and while miraculously surviving said leader is stuck in a coma. Are you going to expect the leader to solve the nation’s problems while they’re in a coma? Hell no.

Maybe now that she’s waking for longer than brief moments and is actually able to hold a full conversation without seriously stressing herself, we may get some more story with her, but we won’t know this until Episode 5 at least.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Is the term dragon champion that broad in describing power? Did it ever tell us in the story the Glint was on the level of the Great Destroyer and the Pale Tree is no more than an Octovine?

Without comparing Glint and the Pale Tree to other dragon champions, yes, dragon champions have a very wide spectrum. Claw Island was, effectively, assaulted by 5 dragon champions: Blightghast (the top one, who remained in Claw Island), Thadeus Ghostrite (who then attacked LA), Vizier Ironghoul (who then attacked Vigil HQ), Admiral Feiste Bakkir (who then attacked OoW HQ), and Lord Zhim Saliah (who then attacked the Durmand Priory). Or the Vinewrath, which has 12 lesser champions under it (the 4 legendaries attacking forts, the 5 breach champions, and the 3 final defender champions – ignoring NPC rank, they’re called “Mordremoth’s champions” and “Vinewrath’s champions” in both meta-event UI and NPC dialogue).

Dragon champions/lieutenants are more than just the dragons, they have a wide range.

Given other champions, I’d probably say Glint was a top-tier champion like Shadow of the Dragon, Tequatl, etc. while the Pale Tree is a mid-tier champion.

Daniel Handler.4816:

We see the Pale Tree prominently in the All and we assume we know all that signifies in the story.

Not really. The Pale Tree is not part of The All at all in the vision, but something before The All – closer to us than The All.

For Scarlet, she was a barrier. And she could be considered such for the PC too – or it may be that the Pale Tree’s suggestion that we were just witnessing parts of Scarlet’s vision (we do hear the Pale Tree and Scarlet’s voice in the background in the first segment) and that normally the non-sylvari PCs wouldn’t see the Pale Tree at all.

Daniel Handler.4816:

And its the little things as well. Wouldn’t the priory study the Dream and/or the Pale Tree? Have race relations destroyed all Asuran curiosity?

You realize that the asura’s very first reaction to sylvari was “dissect it while it’s still alive, and drill holes into it”. Ask Malomedies about asuran curiosity, his scars that he has in lore (sadly, his model seems to lack) will answer.

And the Priory HAS studied the Dream, they have multiple books on the topic. Including indirect ones.

castlemanic.3198:

Wait, didn’t the elder dragons absorb the magic and then create their minions which now have those other areas of dragon influence? Icebrood are way south of Jormag, yet there’s only one instance of icebrood having any sort of additional dragon corruption beyond frost (conveniently, this lone icebrood was closer to Jormag, providing evidence of such).

Sorry for the nitpick.

No order is specified, but it seems HIGHLY unlikely that Primordus wouldn’t take any of his minions with him when traveling to the Ring of Fire, and if he did and the old minions didn’t change from the new magic then we’d see some old destroyers mixed in with the new death/plant destroyers.

Since we see no such destroyers, that means Primordus moved solo (seems weird af given that Elder Dragons never do that), or Primordus altered his pre-existing minions.

castlemanic.3198:

False! Caithe is actually able to see and influence the dream through the aid of the pale tree

Key words: through the aid of the pale tree. Same thing with A Vision of Darkness.

And the Pale Tree states that doing such was very stressful for her and could not be maintained for long. So her doing it was a very rare thing indeed, and honestly told her nothing new so if she wanted people to know more about the Dream she could have just stated what she knew and it’d be what people could find out and then some.

castlemanic.3198:

in the sylvari tutorial zone and also in atleastone of the subsequent story missions (white stag biography choice, Caithe actually mentions seeing the white stag in YOUR dream).

She mentions this in all of them. But this is explained by the fact that the wyld hunt is emblazoned on the waterfall where you start, and where you first meet Caithe.

castlemanic.3198:

and THEN there’s that time that Trahearn deus ex machinas a friggin portal into the dream for you and two allies to walk into and defeat Mordremoth from within the dream. Do we have any lore about how the hell he managed to do that?

He was physically and mentally tied to Mordremoth, who was – like the Pale Tree – partway in the Dream. So he was able to siphon off of Mordremoth, turning himself into a conduit of sorts, to replicate what the Pale Tree does in A Vision of Darkness.

castlemanic.3198:

(though maybe Omadds machine may help with this if it doesn’t traumatize those who walk in too much).

Except the Dream != The All…

Two separate things there.

To be perfect honest, I’d be curious as to whether the Blighting Trees (which appears to be the stock the Pale Tree comes from) are supposed to be ‘champions’ at all as opposed to simple minion factories, like the rotmouths in the Bramble Pass event, albeit at a much larger scale.

This does raise the question of the Pale Tree being sapient, which does seem to indicate that she comes from champion stock, but she may have gained her sapience as a result of whatever freed her from Mordremoth’s control. There’s no evidence that the Blighting Trees have any sentience of their own.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

castlemanic.3198:

Wait, didn’t the elder dragons absorb the magic and then create their minions which now have those other areas of dragon influence? Icebrood are way south of Jormag, yet there’s only one instance of icebrood having any sort of additional dragon corruption beyond frost (conveniently, this lone icebrood was closer to Jormag, providing evidence of such).

Sorry for the nitpick.

No order is specified, but it seems HIGHLY unlikely that Primordus wouldn’t take any of his minions with him when traveling to the Ring of Fire, and if he did and the old minions didn’t change from the new magic then we’d see some old destroyers mixed in with the new death/plant destroyers.

Since we see no such destroyers, that means Primordus moved solo (seems weird af given that Elder Dragons never do that), or Primordus altered his pre-existing minions.

I’m less than sure about that. The only time a dragon’s movements have been described to us in enough detail to know whether it was accompanied by minions- Kralkatorrik in Edge of Destiny- the dragon was traveling solo. That’s a sample size of one, but still…

On the other hand, if Primordus did have minions that it considered important enough to take with it- maybe whatever is filling the Great Destroyer’s shoes these days- wouldn’t it make more sense for the dragon to keep them near it, beneath the surface? Wouldn’t the minions we see up top, expanding the borders of the domain, be new ones created on the spot? Creating mook-level minions certainly doesn’t seem trying enough to justify bringing a whole army of pre-existing ones all the way across the continent, not when your destination is a spot practically overflowing with the material, both physical and magical, to create them there.

draxynnic.3719:

There’s no evidence that the Blighting Trees have any sentience of their own.

On the other hand, if they were like the Pale Tree, I wouldn’t expect them to show their sapience. She needs to manifest an avatar to talk to anyone except her children, and it’s hard to see what a Blighting Tree would gain from doing so. It’s not like it’s going to be able to convince us not to blow it up once we’ve already fought through the army surrounding it.

@Konig

1. isn’t it odd though that the only mention of an Icebrood with extra corruption is so far north from where both Mordremoth’s and Zhaitain’s places of death? I’m with you on the Primordus thing but that brings up the icebrood question (though,admittedly, that may be developers not wanting to affect core tyria with season 3 content? Also i’m sure i’ve read people mentioning that the launch zones were ‘stuck in time’, which would also lend some sort of dev credence to not touching those zones with season 3 things)

2. i agree with everything you say about the pale tree’s connection to the dream (and, subsequently, how difficult it is for an outsider to access the dream). The thing I’m iffy about is how mordremoth got access to the dream. I remember there being talk about the dream protecting the sylvari from his corruption, did Mordremoth access the dream through the corrupted sylvari? (or possibly trahearne who he had trapped, and then Trahearne used his connection with mordremoth to open a portal to the dream?) Was he always connected but it rebuffed his efforts of corruption? Little confused about this part.

3. yeah i messed up about the dream/all connection, my bad.

Made a mistake, see below.

Westenev.5289:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If she knew the attack was coming, she could have secretly ensured greater security without notifying the other leaders. However, they had already agreed to help by the time of the attack, so the attack did little to ensure their support (not that it really amounted to much in the fight against Mordremoth in the first place); if she had foreseen the events well enough, she would have foreseen that as well.

So I’d stick with the argument that she didn’t know, because the Dream isn’t as all telling as that. It’s far from that accurate, either, given how different A Light in the Darkness is from actual events.

Okay. If we look at it another way, the pale tree is established as quite the well defended fortress – so much so that it’s considered the main hub of one of the five higher races of Tyria. Say this hub is breached during an event of heightened security – what message does this send to the other world leaders?

Keep in mind that at this point in time, the leaders hadn’t agreed to commit – they agreed to be there as a personal favour to the commander themselves.

The point, I think, wasn’t made in the act of repelling the dragon. It was made by surpassing the trial the dragon presented, and in once more crowning a hero to lead the masses. The Pact Commander, and therefore the pact, stood up to this challenge – and rallied a world for a hasty attack on the Jungle Dragon before the difference in battle strengths became too uneven.

As it is relatively safe to consider the Pale Tree a minion of Mordremoth, I’d imagine she might have had some idea of his plans and abilities – and only told enough so as to allow her people to make their own decisions and succumb their own failings as creations. This, I feel, is why she never warned us of “the call”, or elaborated on (or even hinted at) the dangers of allowing her children to face the dragon.

Sorry. :p missed the edit button!

Aaron Ansari.1604:

draxynnic.3719:

There’s no evidence that the Blighting Trees have any sentience of their own.

On the other hand, if they were like the Pale Tree, I wouldn’t expect them to show their sapience. She needs to manifest an avatar to talk to anyone except her children, and it’s hard to see what a Blighting Tree would gain from doing so. It’s not like it’s going to be able to convince us not to blow it up once we’ve already fought through the army surrounding it.

This is true, and something I considered myself – when I said there’s no evidence that the Blighting Trees are sentient, I was also fully aware that there’s no evidence that they’re not.

On the other, other hand, though, we’ve been told that higher intelligence requires magic, and the Elder Dragons are conservative with how much magic they grant their minions: they don’t grant a minion enough magic to reach the full level of intelligence it’s physically capable of reaching unless the dragon sees a benefit to doing so. We see this with most rank-and-file minions being basically mindless, even if they’re formed from sapient creatures. In short, any dragon minion is only allowed to be as intelligent as the dragon sees a benefit to it being.

The Pale Tree, being… somehow, we don’t know how or why… disconnected from Mordremoth is free to reach the full potential of her kind. It would make sense for Mordremoth to make the Blighting Trees physically capable of high intelligence, just in case he does need them to be intelligent at some point for some reason. But, when push comes to shove… how smart does Mordremoth actually need the Blighting Trees to be? Only about as intelligent as needed to follow a set of instructions: “create X minions using template A and Y minions using template B”

Finally, one last thing that I just thought of: given how much Mordremoth and his champions like to taunt those sylvari that still resisted him, I think it would have been in character for a Blighting Tree to pop an avatar and monologue about how it is what the Pale Tree was meant to be.

Westenev.5289:

As it is relatively safe to consider the Pale Tree a minion of Mordremoth, I’d imagine she might have had some idea of his plans and abilities – and only told enough so as to allow her people to make their own decisions and succumb their own failings as creations. This, I feel, is why she never warned us of “the call”, or elaborated on (or even hinted at) the dangers of allowing her children to face the dragon.

Well… she’s something that was supposed to be a minion, but which is somehow… not. Similar to Glint, although we don’t know if the Forgotten ritual was involved or some other cleansing method.

In the case of Glint, Glint seemed to have a pretty good idea about Kralkatorrik – but she had the benefit of high-level mindreading ability as well as experience from having served him in the past. In the case of the Pale Tree… she doesn’t have Glint’s mindreading (that we know of), nor does she have experience from past dragonrises. So she may not actually know that much about Mordremoth’s plans and capabilities. On the other hand, she does have the Dream, which has been shown to have some prophetic properties, and seems to be how Mordremoth was able to attack sylvari minds. From what we’ve been told, it seems that the Pale Tree was able to wall off Mordremoth within the Dream (or create a portion within the Dream which Mordremoth couldn’t enter for the sylvari) – prior to her wounding, sylvari were only susceptible to Mordremoth if they forsook the Pale Tree. After her wounding, though, her protections were broken, and all were vulnerable. As was written in Aerin’s scribblings: Kill the leader, and the rest will fall in line.

So my gut feeling is that the Pale Tree was caught by surprise by the attack, or was in a situation similar to Glint in Edge of Destiny where she knew nothing could stop it. I doubt she’d let herself be injured in order to press upon the other races how much of a threat Mordremoth is, since it seems that her injury was at least a contributing factor to sylvari turning to Mordremoth in the first place.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Because she has – until the very latest situation been completely unconscious.

My criticism is of her place in the story as a whole. She has not always been unconscious. I worry that because she was involved in cleasning Orr, and HoT was so Sylvari centric, they will keep coming up with convenient ways to keep her out of the story.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Not really. The Pale Tree is not part of The All at all in the vision, but something before The All – closer to us than The All.

Now we are discussing the vision again. Scarlet said depth and further. The part of the vision you call the All is 3d. You need to explain why I shouldn’t take it literally

1. Open Google Earth so you can see the entire solar system
2. rotate the planets
3. go deeper using the zoom function until you are at city level
4. drag the yellow man onto the street
5. explore the street further

Prominently in the All just means that our vision focused on that specific aspect. Did we see it just because of Mordremoth or is there something more?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You realize that the asura’s very first reaction to sylvari was “dissect it while it’s still alive, and drill holes into it”. Ask Malomedies about asuran curiosity, his scars that he has in lore (sadly, his model seems to lack) will answer.

And the Priory HAS studied the Dream, they have multiple books on the topic. Including indirect ones.

Its good to see the priory are studying it. But given the recent events in the story I would assume curiosity has heightened.

Just as you praised the writers for the lore notes they left in Caudeucus Manor, I hope they add to this list of priory works.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I’m less than sure about that. The only time a dragon’s movements have been described to us in enough detail to know whether it was accompanied by minions- Kralkatorrik in Edge of Destiny- the dragon was traveling solo. That’s a sample size of one, but still…

Technically speaking, Kralkatorrik did take minions with it – but they traveled slower than Kralkatorrik, and were being created mid-flight.

Also, Jormag moved south too, and we’re told that the norn knew of Jormag’s push south for four (iirc) years before Jormag itself came, and we know that Aesgir fought its greatest champion, Frostfang, before battling Jormag itself which happened as Jormag was pushing south.

So 2 for 2 had minions with it – but one moved faster than its minions while the other didn’t.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

On the other hand, if Primordus did have minions that it considered important enough to take with it- maybe whatever is filling the Great Destroyer’s shoes these days- wouldn’t it make more sense for the dragon to keep them near it, beneath the surface?

If you work on the function that it only brought a handful of champions, rather than an army (which would be more useful, generally), then sure.

But in either case, that would mean that the champions need to be capable of creating the new minions, meaning they’d be instilled with the new magic to do so, thus fulfilling exactly what I said anyways. Unless only Primordus is creating new minions, or it created new champions to create the new minions, letting the old champions do literally nothing but being personal guards (a waste of resources).

Aaron Ansari.1604:

draxynnic.3719:

There’s no evidence that the Blighting Trees have any sentience of their own.

On the other hand, if they were like the Pale Tree, I wouldn’t expect them to show their sapience. She needs to manifest an avatar to talk to anyone except her children, and it’s hard to see what a Blighting Tree would gain from doing so. It’s not like it’s going to be able to convince us not to blow it up once we’ve already fought through the army surrounding it.

And on the third hand, the Tower of Nightmares – which created a sylvari-like krait and looks very much like the Vinewrath, and furthermore is part of the first introduction of Mordremoth’s theme in the music – is suggested to have sapience. We’re also told that the krait grew the Tower of Nightmares from a seed that Scarlet – known to be in communication with Mordremoth – gave them.

castlemanic.3198:

@Konig-snip rest-

1. Just as Primordus would alter the old minions, Jormag would alter his, meaning those closest would get altered first, in theory. Plus, yes, the devs don’t want to alter core maps with the Living World anymore it seems – except through Current Events – as per episode 4, the reason for no bubble in DR or Queensdale (even localized by client / character progress rather than omnipresent) is because the maps are “stuck in time” officially now (which causes problems with the Current Events and the tooth shattered in Hoelbrak but… y’know, Anet loves consistency); but altering the core maps’ icebrood/destroyers would also mean spoiling Season 3 to new players so that’s a good thing in that realm (after all, foes cannot be client based and just having a skin change while being mechanically the same would seem a bit boring).

2. The talk was actually the Dream protecting against other dragons, and that the Dream doesn’t protect against Mordremoth. The reason it doesn’t is because of his connection to the Dream – it just changes the manner in which he turns sylvari over to his side, from standard corruption to mental mindkittenery. It was through the Dream (the same channels that the Dream uses to implant Wyld/Dark Hunts in sylvari, so we’re told in HoT promotion articles, in fact) that Mordremoth “corrupted” the sylvari, through the method of implanting thoughts in their head, because the Dream prevents traditional dragon corruption. This is why sylvari can resist his corruption too – because it’s not traditional dragon corruption, so he cannot forcibly enslave (though based on Diarmid and Faolain, he can use traditional dragon corruption on sylvari corpses?).

Westenev.5289:

Keep in mind that at this point in time, the leaders hadn’t agreed to commit – they agreed to be there as a personal favour to the commander themselves.

They actually had agreed to commit, just before the Shadow of the Dragon attacked. Through well rounded voiceless speech of super-duper genericness that beseeched the goodwill of humanity in charr, norn, asura, and mankind alike, the Pact Commander did sway the four world leaders (even those who uncharacteristically didn’t want to send aid despite having done so full well in the past when the Pact were untested -coughJennahandSmodercough-).

Westenev.5289:

As it is relatively safe to consider the Pale Tree a minion of Mordremoth, I’d imagine she might have had some idea of his plans and abilities – and only told enough so as to allow her people to make their own decisions and succumb their own failings as creations. This, I feel, is why she never warned us of “the call”, or elaborated on (or even hinted at) the dangers of allowing her children to face the dragon.

Seems rather short-sighted for the Pale Tree, which goes against the notion that she knew of the attack and allowed such for the sake of rallying stronger forces against Mordremoth.

Rather, it seems more likely that she was going to tell of the sylvari origins but the Shadow of the Dragon’s attack incapacitating her prevented this. Either way, she knew her origins as shown in the end of Season 2 so she has answers to give either way, and I hope ArenaNet makes her give them rather than just glancing over because she’s “obviously good guy oracle”.

Daniel Handler.4816:

My criticism is of her place in the story as a whole. She has not always been unconscious. I worry that because she was involved in cleasning Orr, and HoT was so Sylvari centric, they will keep coming up with convenient ways to keep her out of the story.

She has also not been relevant to the plot, or capable of helping more than she did, in the story as a whole – the only time when she became more relevant or capable of helping more than she does in the story, she’s injured and unconscious.

I think her actions with the Orr plot is enough to indicate that they’re not done with her, they just needed to put her on the proverbial bus so that plot can go the way they wanted it (aka not have the Pale Tree reveal and solve everything before it becomes a shock and awe factor – how much more exciting would it have been if the Pale Tree was fine from the attack and at the end said “by the way, Commander, the sylvari are originally minions of Mordremoth, and though they are free Mordremoth may be able to call to them and some may lose against their creator’s will.” compared to the ending of Season 2?

And the entire plot of HoT focusing around “how are we going to kill Mordremoth” would have been solved just by asking the Pale Tree about its weakness, then and there. No build up or anticipation.

The Pale Tree’s act of being put unconscious is very clearly a writing tool done to make the plot that she would be capable of instantly solving not instantly solved.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Now we are discussing the vision again. Scarlet said depth and further. The part of the vision you call the All is 3d. You need to explain why I shouldn’t take it literally

Watch what we experience again. I’ll wait…

Back? Did you notice how we went past the Pale Tree, and through a tunnel before witnessing The All and, how, there was no sign of the Pale Tree in that witnessing of The All?

She’s no more part of The All than the Pact Commander, if that much.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Its good to see the priory are studying it. But given the recent events in the story I would assume curiosity has heightened.

Given recent events, we’ve not seen what the Priory has been doing… so for all we know, they have been. Or they’ve been more preoccupied with their all-time low number of members thanks to the deaths at Zhaitan’s and Mordremoth’s forces, combined with the problems of magic going crazy and are a bit more worried at studying the ley line overflows so as to solve that potentially world-destroying problem.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Technically speaking, Kralkatorrik did take minions with it – but they traveled slower than Kralkatorrik, and were being created mid-flight.

That’s actually what I was thinking when I said that creating basic minions doesn’t seem tough enough to be worth the effort of waiting for them. At the speed he was flying, he effectively was alone- the Branded that actually took part in the battle seem to be what he corrupted nearby. Apply a similar behavior to Primordus, and he’d outrun his regular minions, leaving them to trail along behind as best they can, while making new green destroyers along the way. Once he settles in under the volcanoes, it’d only be new ones that surface first, and for a fair while after- and that’s where we come in at Rising Flames.

Jormag, I’ll cede- I’d missed that bit of lore in the legendary collections- but on the other hand, as you yourself pointed out, that was at a point where he’d been warring with the norn for years, and we’ve also been told that he directly took on hundreds of norn at a time at some point- presumably, if Frostfang’s purpose was going out in front like you seem to suggest, that means there was a point in those years where it wasn’t on hand to do so. Your interpretation may vary, but that sounds to me like Jormag was at the forefront in the beginning, and Frostfang only caught up, or possibly was created, later.

Given recent events, we’ve not seen what the Priory has been doing… so for all we know, they have been. Or they’ve been more preoccupied with their all-time low number of members thanks to the deaths at Zhaitan’s and Mordremoth’s forces, combined with the problems of magic going crazy and are a bit more worried at studying the ley line overflows so as to solve that potentially world-destroying problem.

And if that’s not enough, a throwaway line in the last episode said that there’s strife between the orders now, with the Priory in particular being called out as busy with it. And then there’s their new-found rivalry with the Consortium over this ley line business, as well as the Inquest’s involvement… our favorite scholars seem to have a lot on their collective plate right now.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Now we are discussing the vision again. Scarlet said depth and further. The part of the vision you call the All is 3d. You need to explain why I shouldn’t take it literally

1. Open Google Earth so you can see the entire solar system
2. rotate the planets
3. go deeper using the zoom function until you are at city level
4. drag the yellow man onto the street
5. explore the street further

Does the vision have a ‘zoom’ function? If it does, does it have the resolution to be able to pick anything out below the continent level?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Technically speaking, Kralkatorrik did take minions with it – but they traveled slower than Kralkatorrik, and were being created mid-flight.

One possibility is that Primordus still wanted to keep whatever territory it currently holds secure, and was confident that it could create new minions using the magic it claimed.

Consider all those strategy games with multiple scenarios, where when you move onto another scenario, you leave behind the (probably massive) army that you won the last scenario with, probably in order to hold the territory you just conquered, and arrive in the next location with only a small force, with which you establish a foothold and then raise a new army using the resources of the location you just arrived at. In most of those strategy games, this is done for game mechanics and to retain the challenge of later scenarios, and people suspend disbelief about the massive armies that are apparently being abandoned or the fact that it is rarely viable to train new troops from scratch in newly conquered territory over a timespan of days, weeks, or even months. For the Elder Dragons, however, this strategy might actually work.

And on the third hand, the Tower of Nightmares – which created a sylvari-like krait and looks very much like the Vinewrath, and furthermore is part of the first introduction of Mordremoth’s theme in the music – is suggested to have sapience. We’re also told that the krait grew the Tower of Nightmares from a seed that Scarlet – known to be in communication with Mordremoth – gave them.

Valid point – I’d forgotten the Tower. Mind you, the Tower might still be an example of what the Blighting Tree species can achieve while independent from Mordremoth, or at least while Mordremoth is still sleeping. There’s still the possibility that the Blighting Trees we see in Heart of Thorns, while physically capable of being sapient, are not sapient because Mordremoth sees no benefit in allocating them the magical resources required for sapience.

@Konig & Drax

We don’t know whether or not the vision has a zoom function. But we do know the Antikytheria is 3d.

It doesn’t matter if we are starting at pale tree level and zooming out, or the reverse. If the All was meant to only include the planet and the Dragons it would have had a different name.

The prominence of the Pale Tree in the vision is not in relation to the All, but in relation to our experience. If you randomly glanced at a spot in Google Earth how likely is it that it would be your house?

There is not enough evidence to prove either perspective. I could be wrong. Until more information is given, I feel my viewpoint is simpler. Otherwise why would a separate mechanism attach itself to a person viewing/about to view the All.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Jormag, I’ll cede- I’d missed that bit of lore in the legendary collections- but on the other hand, as you yourself pointed out, that was at a point where he’d been warring with the norn for years, and we’ve also been told that he directly took on hundreds of norn at a time at some point- presumably, if Frostfang’s purpose was going out in front like you seem to suggest, that means there was a point in those years where it wasn’t on hand to do so. Your interpretation may vary, but that sounds to me like Jormag was at the forefront in the beginning, and Frostfang only caught up, or possibly was created, later.

We actually don’t know how long Jormag was part of the fight itself – or how long the fight was before the norn fled south.

The line mentioning four years is here – looking at it again, it is a bit unclear where Jormag’s presence was involved here, but the presence of minions is implied to be concurrent with the four year snowstorm it created upon awakening.

The only clear thing is that the time from Jormag’s awakening and the time of the norn fleeing south was 4 years. We know neither when Aesgir slew Frostfang, or when the norn began battling Jormag directly in relation to this.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The prominence of the Pale Tree in the vision is not in relation to the All, but in relation to our experience.

Which is exactly what I’ve been saying.

What you were saying, however, is that the Pale Tree is prominent to The All as shown in the vision.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Daniel Handler.4816:

The prominence of the Pale Tree in the vision is not in relation to the All, but in relation to our experience.

Which is exactly what I’ve been saying.

What you were saying, however, is that the Pale Tree is prominent to The All as shown in the vision.

You are being confused by the word prominence. It doesn’t only mean importance.

We are talking about a 3d map so “the fact or condition of standing out from something by physically projecting or being particularly noticeable,” is relevant.

The Kremlin is not prominent in relation to the Solar System. However, if two separate people opened Google Earth and it automatically showed us Putin’s garage we may have questions. The Kremlin would be prominent during our viewing experience because it would be sharply in view.

For my part I have only been using one form of the word. But I can use both if you want.

The Pale Tree is not prominent in the All but is prominent in our vision, and therefore might be prominent to the All.

Except that we can see with our very own eyes that the Pale Tree is not “physically projecting” or “being particularly noticeable” in The All.

Neither definition of the word prominent works. The Pale Tree simply isn’t prominent in The All – she doesn’t stand out within nor is she important to The All.

We’ve also been given an explanation as to why the Pale Tree appears even to non-sylvari: what we’re seeing has been influenced by Scarlet’s experience.

Scarlet saw the Pale Tree because that was her starting point – in fact, in combination with other information, it seems she had to punch through a barrier made by the Pale Tree to see the rest at all. Passing through the Pale Tree’s vision is essentially the metaphysical representation of going outside of her protection.

We see the Pale Tree because what we see is basically a replay of (part of) what Scarlet saw.

Do we actually know for certain that the “All” image is three dimensional? This has been asserted multiple times but where and when is that stated ingame? I’ll accept that I may have missed this fact myself but all the same I’d like citation on this of some kind.

We see the orbs moving around, though they begin in a 2d position they end in a 3d position. The All is also meant to represent the world’s placement in the cosmos – basically the magic version of looking at Earth’s orbit around the sun, the moon’s orb around the Earth, and the wind currents and magnetic field around Earth.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Except that we can see with our very own eyes that the Pale Tree is not “physically projecting” or “being particularly noticeable” in The All.

Neither definition of the word prominent works. The Pale Tree simply isn’t prominent in The All – she doesn’t stand out within nor is she important to The All.

As I have been saying again and again, I believe the entire vision is The All. The part with the orbs is just an outer layer. The Pale Tree stands out during the examination of a deeper layer.

The Pale Tree is not prominent from the celestial perspective, but she is prominent when we zoom in. The fact we see her out of all the other places on Tyria signifies some prominence to the All or at least the mechanisms of the vision.

I am not going to discuss whether the Pale Tree is prominent in the vision. She clearly stands out from the blue void we float in. You are free to debate whether the whole vision is the All. But don’t add the idea of separate mechanisms affecting the vision without elaborating.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Except that we can see with our very own eyes that the Pale Tree is not “physically projecting” or “being particularly noticeable” in The All.

Neither definition of the word prominent works. The Pale Tree simply isn’t prominent in The All – she doesn’t stand out within nor is she important to The All.

As I have been saying again and again, I believe the entire vision is The All. The part with the orbs is just an outer layer. The Pale Tree stands out during the examination of a deeper layer.

The Pale Tree is not prominent from the celestial perspective, but she is prominent when we zoom in. The fact we see her out of all the other places on Tyria signifies some prominence to the All or at least the mechanisms of the vision.

I am not going to discuss whether the Pale Tree is prominent in the vision. She clearly stands out from the blue void we float in. You are free to debate whether the whole vision is the All. But don’t add the idea of separate mechanisms affecting the vision without elaborating.

draxynnic.3719:

We’ve also been given an explanation as to why the Pale Tree appears even to non-sylvari: what we’re seeing has been influenced by Scarlet’s experience.

Scarlet saw the Pale Tree because that was her starting point – in fact, in combination with other information, it seems she had to punch through a barrier made by the Pale Tree to see the rest at all. Passing through the Pale Tree’s vision is essentially the metaphysical representation of going outside of her protection.

We see the Pale Tree because what we see is basically a replay of (part of) what Scarlet saw.

I think Drax covered that part of the argument already.

Daniel Handler.4816:

As I have been saying again and again, I believe the entire vision is The All. The part with the orbs is just an outer layer. The Pale Tree stands out during the examination of a deeper layer.

But the Pale Tree is before the outer layer, and we’re heading inward. Which means that the part with the Pale Tree is further out than The All.

It would be another matter if after going through the tunnel the camera turns around to witness the all, but the camera remains the same direction. We approach the Pale Tree, go through a tunnel, and beyond the tunnel lies The All.

The vision isn’t a case of leaving orbit and looking back down, but of heading to orbit from somewhere else (in this case, the Dream is most likely, given the Pale Tree saying what we saw was remnants of Scarlet’s vision and we broke beyond the Pale Tree, caretaker of the Dream, to witness what lied beyond).

Daniel Handler.4816:

I am not going to discuss whether the Pale Tree is prominent in the vision. She clearly stands out from the blue void we float in. You are free to debate whether the whole vision is the All. But don’t add the idea of separate mechanisms affecting the vision without elaborating.

The matter had already been elaborated upon. Not my fault you overlook/ignore such.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Daniel Handler.4816:

As I have been saying again and again, I believe the entire vision is The All. The part with the orbs is just an outer layer. The Pale Tree stands out during the examination of a deeper layer.

But the Pale Tree is before the outer layer, and we’re heading inward. Which means that the part with the Pale Tree is further out than The All.

It would be another matter if after going through the tunnel the camera turns around to witness the all, but the camera remains the same direction. We approach the Pale Tree, go through a tunnel, and beyond the tunnel lies The All.

The vision isn’t a case of leaving orbit and looking back down, but of heading to orbit from somewhere else (in this case, the Dream is most likely, given the Pale Tree saying what we saw was remnants of Scarlet’s vision and we broke beyond the Pale Tree, caretaker of the Dream, to witness what lied beyond).

Daniel Handler.4816:

I am not going to discuss whether the Pale Tree is prominent in the vision. She clearly stands out from the blue void we float in. You are free to debate whether the whole vision is the All. But don’t add the idea of separate mechanisms affecting the vision without elaborating.

The matter had already been elaborated upon. Not my fault you overlook/ignore such.

Scarlet saw the orbs then the Pale Tree after going deeper. We saw the reverse. Though its possible we are seeing the same information, we did not see Scarlet’s vision as she saw it.

https://youtu.be/OQGGytoNXk8?t=32s It is not impossible to rotate perspective during a transition animation. There is is no frame of reference while the screen is white. If we were heading into orbit we would be zooming in rather than starting at planetary level and zooming out.

draxynnic.3719:

We’ve also been given an explanation as to why the Pale Tree appears even to non-sylvari: what we’re seeing has been influenced by Scarlet’s experience.

Scarlet saw the Pale Tree because that was her starting point – in fact, in combination with other information, it seems she had to punch through a barrier made by the Pale Tree to see the rest at all. Passing through the Pale Tree’s vision is essentially the metaphysical representation of going outside of her protection.

We see the Pale Tree because what we see is basically a replay of (part of) what Scarlet saw.

It is possible but it doesn’t explain the reverse imagery in the visions. Scarlet saw the orbs then the Pale Tree, we saw the Pale Tree and then the orbs.

Moreover why would the machine be affected by Scarlet’s experience?

Is it reversed? We don’t actually see what the PC is looking at until after we punch through.

The “What Scarlet Saw” short story cut off after Scarlet punched through, because the writers wanted to keep it a mystery what it was that actually pushed her over the edge. We’re given enough to know the Pale Tree wanted her to stop, she went on anyway, and something there transformed her.

The cutscene when the PC goes into Omadd’s machine is the big reveal. That was when we actually got to see what Scarlet saw behind the Pale Tree. The initial part of the cutscene matches the initial part of Scarlet’s vision:

“Inside Omadd’s machine, the universe stretched out before her, an endlessly vast star-flecked sea. She moved through it, struggling against its currents, floating effortlessly above them, or standing perfectly still as strange lights and magical energies swirled around her.”

We see the starscape, strange lights, and magical energies to the PC’s front and sides. We don’t see what the PC is looking at, which is likely Tyria. From an artistic perspective, showing what most of the playerbase already knew – namely, that Tyria was part of the vision – wasn’t important.

What we see afterwards is not the vision of Tyria described in What Scarlet Saw, but a metaphysical representation of the relationships between Tyria and the dragons in the All. In the short story, Scarlet muses about whether she’ll see herself in the vision of Tyria – the central orb that represents Tyria in the vision we see doesn’t even hint at that sort of detail.

My conclusion is that the PC saw things in the same order as Scarlet. We weren’t shown the initial vision of Tyria – the playerbase already knew that was part of the vision, so that was foregone in order to set mood shots of the PC floating in the void. We were then shown the PC punching through the Pale Tree – to demonstrate that now we were about to see the big reveal that was kept as a mystery in the short story. And then we saw what it was that turned Ceara into Scarlet Briar.

As for why the machine would be affected by Scarlet’s experience? Wrong question. We hear the voice of Scarlet and the Pale Tree in the cutscene – this demonstrates that the machine has been affected. How and why… well, there are a number of possible explanations I can think of, but the bottom line is that we don’t need to know how to know that it did – we have the direct evidence right in our ears. We wouldn’t be hearing those voices if Scarlet’s experience had not, in some fashion, influenced our own.

All this does raise another question: what we see in the second half of the vision is the Zhaitan orb crashing into Tyria, and then surging forth to encompass the entire vision. We’ve taken for granted for a long while that that was a representation of Zhaitan dying. However… every timeline I’ve seen has Ceara having her vision years before Zhaitan’s death. If it’s true that we’re only reliving her vision, does that mean that the machine can discern the future? Or that the orbs crashing together means something completely different than we thought? (That’s what I’m inclined to believe, incidentally- it’s been noted that the order of the spheres ‘activating’ matches the chronological order the dragons are presumed to have awoke in, but the Mordremoth sphere activating before the Zhaitan sphere’s ‘death’ already suggests that something else is going on than just a compressed timeline.) If we’re not just reliving her vision- if bits and pieces of it are mixed in with things she never saw- then how solid can our conclusions be without a way to tell which is which?

How I’ve been interpreting it is that we follow the same “path” in the vision, but the vision is “up to date with current events” – so, in theory, when Scarlet witnessed the vision, Mordremoth’s sphere wouldn’t have activated and Zhaitan’s wouldn’t have crashed. But it’s ultimately unclear.

Dev input required, or maybe we’ll get to see The All again thanks to Taimi’s tomfoolery.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

How I’ve been interpreting it is that we follow the same “path” in the vision, but the vision is “up to date with current events” – so, in theory, when Scarlet witnessed the vision, Mordremoth’s sphere wouldn’t have activated and Zhaitan’s wouldn’t have crashed. But it’s ultimately unclear.

Dev input required, or maybe we’ll get to see The All again thanks to Taimi’s tomfoolery.

Sorry for the late reply, I’ve been very busy with school.

Your interpretation is frustrating. You want to treat only the section with the orbs as part of the All, but it’s clear the entire vision has been updated. For instance there is no vine around the Pale Tree.

I get if you want to say its the same path through the All and not an indication of importance. But don’t arbitrarily decide which parts of the vision are the All when nothing exactly resembles Scarlet’s remarks.

You’re stuck on being unable to separate “same path” from “same vision”. It’s the same path, but not at the same time – so things have changed, but we’re going along the same “route” to witnessing The All at the end that Scarlet had taken. It’s just that, because time has progressed (by 7 years!), the appearance of that route has changed.

If you walk down a street one day, which has children playing in sprinklers, then come back 7 years later, you’re not going to see those same children playing in those same sprinklers. That may not even happen if you walk down that same street the very next day.

Omadd’s Machine is not a replay button for video footage recorded by Scarlet. It’s more akin to a ride on a track – same start, same end – which Scarlet had laid down when she first entered the machine. The start is not The All but a barrier to cross before one can witness The All, which we cross during the vision itself.

And the thing is that the vision we saw does “exactly resemble Scarlet’s” – but it’s not a duplicate. Resemblance is not “exactly the same” but “similar to”, and that’s what we see – the general placement of things are more or less the same, but the events are not the same.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You’re stuck on being unable to separate “same path” from “same vision”. It’s the same path, but not at the same time – so things have changed, but we’re going along the same “route” to witnessing The All at the end that Scarlet had taken. It’s just that, because time has progressed (by 7 years!), the appearance of that route has changed.

If you walk down a street one day, which has children playing in sprinklers, then come back 7 years later, you’re not going to see those same children playing in those same sprinklers. That may not even happen if you walk down that same street the very next day.

Omadd’s Machine is not a replay button for video footage recorded by Scarlet. It’s more akin to a ride on a track – same start, same end – which Scarlet had laid down when she first entered the machine. The start is not The All but a barrier to cross before one can witness The All, which we cross during the vision itself.

And the thing is that the vision we saw does “exactly resemble Scarlet’s” – but it’s not a duplicate. Resemblance is not “exactly the same” but “similar to”, and that’s what we see – the general placement of things are more or less the same, but the events are not the same.

The very first thing she see is a planetary body then the Pale Tree. The very first thing we see is the Pale Tree, then we see a planetary body. If it was the same path different time the order should be the same.

I think it’s actually kind of a combination of both.

Here’s what Scarlet saw, directly from the wiki:

Inside Omadd’s machine, the universe stretched out before her, an endlessly vast star-flecked sea. She moved through it, struggling against its currents, floating effortlessly above them, or standing perfectly still as strange lights and magical energies swirled around her.

She saw Tyria as a life-sized globe, fixed in place among cosmic storms and massive clouds of potentiality. She wondered if she would see herself in Omadd’s lab when Rata Sum rotated into view, but then impatiently went on, plunging deeper into the churning void.

Stop, my child.

Ceara paused. She hadn’t heard the Pale Tree’s voice in years.

Please: go no further. In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.

Ceara felt an electric tingle and she wondered if her body was smiling back in Omadd’s lab. Deliberately and with great glee, Ceara thought, Shhh. I’m thinking, and then pressed on.

She soon saw a vague, glowing shape ahead. A tree, she thought…the Pale Tree. Its great off-white trunk connected a broad network of branches and leaves to a root system below.

-snip-

With the Pale Tree’s desperate words and her own raucous laughter growing echoing across the void, Ceara plunged through the vision of the great tree and beyond.[/i]

Here’s the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQGGytoNXk8

Here’s my perception of these two things, and forgive me if I’m wrong.

Scarlet first travels through a sea of stars, finds tyria, then moves past it. She finds the Pale Tree in her way, then plunges through the tree and, well, we don’t know what she saw afterwards according to the text.

The commander first travels through a sea of stars, doesn’t see tyria but goes straight to the tree. Seemingly, we plunge through the tree the same way Scarlet did and find the All. So extrapolating from that, we can assume that Scarlet saw the All straight after plunging through the tree.

Simply put, Scarlet saw Tyria before the Pale Tree, not the All. I think that’s an important distinction. It would be the difference between a globe and one of those spinning models of the solar system. You can have both a globe and a spinning model of the solar system in the same room and can examine them as separate things, even though the model of the solar system has the earth in it. If we follow Scarlet’s path, she could be in front of the globe and there would be a large piece of paper behind it. She doesn’t know what’s behind the paper, which would be the tree in this case. So, she moves the globe to the side, punches a small hole into the paper, small enough just to peek through, and sees the spinning model of the solar system behind it. The next time we come in, the globe would already be set to the side and we find the paper with the hole in it, but it’s been seven years, so the spinning model of the universe behind it has removed pluto from it. So, we go through the same ‘path’, missing the globe because it’s no longer in our path and peek through the same hole that Scarlet made and see an updated version of the solar system.

There’s probably a much better analogy out there, especially one that accommodates for the ‘not seeing Tyria first’ thing, but that’s how I interpret it atleast.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The very first thing she see is a planetary body then the Pale Tree. The very first thing we see is the Pale Tree, then we see a planetary body. If it was the same path different time the order should be the same.

Uh, no. The very first thing she sees is:

the universe stretched out before her, an endlessly vast star-flecked sea.

and the very first thing we see is:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wrLGCUR-jPg/maxresdefault.jpg

Which is an endlessly vast star-flecked sea if I’ve ever seen one.

Video for reference

Then she witnesses, in the distance – as part of that sea – Tyria. We do not see this, probably because the cinematic makes skips (the flashes of white) to show the Pale Tree, all the while this happens you can hear two female voices whispering – turn the volume up and… it’s Scarlet and the Pale Tree, repeating the discussion (fragmented) from the short story.

Then she sees the Pale Tree, like we do.

Then she pushes past the Pale Tree, or “zooms in” as you put it, and so do we. The short story never revealed what she saw beyond (or “when zooming into” as you claim – but she didn’t zoom into the Pale Tree, she “plunged through” it) the Pale Tree, but the machine vision does show it.

EDIT: I’d like to note, upon reviewing the video again, there are flashes of The All’s diagram, repeating one after another, surrounding the PC in the vision – one of those could have been the “life-sized globe, fixed in place among cosmic storms and massive clouds of potentiality” version of Tyria she saw before encountering the Pale Tree and going towards The All.

However, I’d stand by the likelihood that the “globe of Tyria” she saw is simply not depicted in the vision, as omitted by the flashes of white – a montage of sorts, to make Scarlet’s “days in the machine” shortened to seconds for players. After all, no one would want to see a 5 minute video depicting the PC wandering through stars, looking at a globe of Tyria, and having a conversation of the Pale Tree before even getting to The All… Plus, it’d require a lot more work of ArenaNet for little to no gain.

@konig If the path is updated why would we hear the same dialogue? You said we were not replaying her vision. The PC is not necessarily sylvari. With no connection to the Dream the Pale Tree cannot speak to us from afar any more than Mordremoth could.

Daniel Handler.4816:

@konig If the path is updated why would we hear the same dialogue? You said we were not replaying her vision. The PC is not necessarily sylvari. With no connection to the Dream the Pale Tree cannot speak to us from afar any more than Mordremoth could.

We don’t hear the same dialogue. One of the clearest phrases I can hear is “We must all play our part”, which is nowhere to be seen in the vision that Scarlet saw. There’s also the phrase “I saw it” that’s part of our vision but not a part of what scarlet saw or heard according to the text.

Read the story again and compare it to what’s heard in the video. You’ll notice they are different. Neither what the Pale Tree says nor what Scarlet thinks in return is what we hear.

@Daniel: Because, as said time and time again (seriously we’re just repeating ourselves now, the answer to everything you bring up is the exact same thing as before), the vision is influenced by Scarlet. Remnants of her vision are left – the path and the dialogue – but what we witness is a modern view of that path, with echoes of the past (literally in this case) going in because this is not the physical reality but a metaphysical state of consciousness.

Rules you’d apply to reality don’t exactly work perfectly in such scenarios.

@castlemanic: I would attribute that more to ArenaNet making edits to a highly disliked piece of lore (though that wasn’t what was so disliked…) rather than it being a different discussion. It’s also probable that the short story features an “abridged” version of the conversation, and we’re getting a different abridged version.