Guild Wars 2

Why is there a statue of Kormir in AC? After the initial shock wore off, that is when the disgust began to set in. Its ok though, a bunch of drinks made the pain go away

Why are there tombs for humans who died in an attack that wiped out all humans in the area?

Kormir had been a goddess for fifteen years at the time of the Foefire. Her statue makes much more sense than Ralena and Vasser’s coffins, and the coffins that the nameless Ascalonian ghosts pop out of, and that bloody massive statue of Barradin.

I think the statue has been explained, actually – it’s not of Barradin, but was built to honour one of his ancestors.

There were also ascalonians that survived the foefire, so it’s possible they entombed the remains fo those killed hastily and left (we don’t know for sure how long of a delay between the foefire activation and the returning of the spirits was, but we do know their bodies lay all over ascalon for a time) and according to the first book there were bodies still laying all over the city that weren't entombed. It's even possible that the king's steward, who helped the adventurers and somehow was not maddened like the other ghosts, did it to honor them As for the statue of Kormir, it’s not impossible for one to be built for her in the time she ascended before the foefire hit. Not plausible, but possible.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Why are there tombs for humans who died in an attack that wiped out all humans in the area?

Kormir had been a goddess for fifteen years at the time of the Foefire. Her statue makes much more sense than Ralena and Vasser’s coffins, and the coffins that the nameless Ascalonian ghosts pop out of, and that bloody massive statue of Barradin.

Technically speaking, nothing says Vassar and Ralena (the latter being sick even by the time of the Searing) had died in the Foefire. And nothing says those ghosts who like hiding in coffins had been buried there (maybe they’re the ghosts of cowards who, when the charr were besieging Ascalon City, fled into the catacombs to hide amongst the coffins).

Exosferatu.2961:

Ascalonians were not wiped out. They retain their human forms but their flesh has been replaced by a pale-blue ectoplasm.

Not completely, no, but no human survived near the vacinity of Ascalon City. Of the Foefire, at least. Many survived the Searing, but that’s not when they were turned into ghosts (their flesh was not “replaced” – they were outright killed and their souls forced to remain as ghosts, unallowed to pass on).

Nay of the Ether.8913:

There were also ascalonians that survived the foefire, so it’s possible they entombed the remains fo those killed hastily and left (we don’t know for sure how long of a delay between the foefire activation and the returning of the spirits was, but we do know their bodies lay all over ascalon for a time) and according to the first book there were bodies still laying all over the city that weren't entombed. It's even possible that the king's steward, who helped the adventurers and somehow was not maddened like the other ghosts, did it to honor them As for the statue of Kormir, it’s not impossible for one to be built for her in the time she ascended before the foefire hit. Not plausible, but possible.

No human in the vacinity of the Foefire’s effects survived the blast. The only humans who did were outside of the effect, like in Ebonhawke.

The steward actually died before the Foefire, so he was spared of the mind-altering effects. There may easily be other ghosts like this too, but who’s hatred of charr match that of Adelbern’s.

Keep in mind that all Foefire ghosts share Adelbern’s mentality and they all view all living life to be charr and a threat to immediately be eliminated. They hold little reason though other ghosts can trick them. This implies that a good number of those named ghosts we meet – like Viggo – were dead before the Foefire, but hate charr and charr-sympathizers to the point of having a similar hatred as those Foefire ghosts.

Exosferatu.2961:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Exosferatu.2961:

Ascalonians were not wiped out. They retain their human forms but their flesh has been replaced by a pale-blue ectoplasm.

Not completely, no, but no human survived near the vacinity of Ascalon City. Of the Foefire, at least. Many survived the Searing, but that’s not when they were turned into ghosts (their flesh was not “replaced” – they were outright killed and their souls forced to remain as ghosts, unallowed to pass on).

According to Ghosts of Ascalon, Ascalonian ghosts retain their human forms but their flesh has been replaced by a pale-blue ectoplasm. Killing an Ascalonian ghost outright is difficult – attacking them only removes ectoplasm from the form until they dissipate and, after a period of time the ghost will simply reform.

That means they are dead. They have been turned to ghosts that retain their human forms, but they are ghosts, killed by the foefire and so dead. Basically, what you are saying is that turning into a zombie is surviving a zombie apocalypse.

I never said humans in the vicinity of the foefire survived, I said ascalonians survived, there’s a big difference. The foefire didn’t obliterate the entirety of the ascalon region, just the areas around the city. Not to mention people (refugees) that had fled or were fleeing. don’t forget the settlement in ebonhawke too. If it had cleaned out the whole ascalonian region there would have been no charr at all left because they got incinerated by the blast.

Ascalon City was regarded as a no-go-zone by everybody from the Foefire to the aftermath of Ghosts of Ascalon. There would have been no opportunity for anyone to get into the catacombs and build tombs for the ghosts.

What’s more likely is that, as shown in GW1, the catacombs already had ghosts within them, and some of those ghosts are still around to object when their resting places are disturbed. Essentially, the Ascalonian ghosts are a mix of true Foefire ghosts and regular ghosts that are simply angry.

Or possibly, the Foefire blast had an effect on the ghosts remaining within the Catacombs and bound them to Adlebern’s will as well.

Tuomir.1830:

Exosferatu.2961:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Exosferatu.2961:

Ascalonians were not wiped out. They retain their human forms but their flesh has been replaced by a pale-blue ectoplasm.

Not completely, no, but no human survived near the vacinity of Ascalon City. Of the Foefire, at least. Many survived the Searing, but that’s not when they were turned into ghosts (their flesh was not “replaced” – they were outright killed and their souls forced to remain as ghosts, unallowed to pass on).

According to Ghosts of Ascalon, Ascalonian ghosts retain their human forms but their flesh has been replaced by a pale-blue ectoplasm. Killing an Ascalonian ghost outright is difficult – attacking them only removes ectoplasm from the form until they dissipate and, after a period of time the ghost will simply reform.

That means they are dead. They have been turned to ghosts that retain their human forms, but they are ghosts, killed by the foefire and so dead. Basically, what you are saying is that turning into a zombie is surviving a zombie apocalypse.

…It is seriously weird how all of Exosferatu’s posts seem to be unavailable to me now..

Anyways, what Tourmir said. If you watch the Ascalonian Catacombs story mode opening cinematic, or read the explanation of the Foefire in the later parts of Ghosts of Ascalon, it is clearly stated and shown (anti-respectively) that they were killed and they had physical corpses, but their spirits remained as ghosts. This wasn’t a transformation like the Margonites where their bodies became what looks to be etheric and more demonic in nature.

But the Ascalonians struck by the Foefire were killed and their souls bound to the land to relive the day of their death until interaction with sentient living beings whom they all view as attacking charr and outright assault in frenzied anger (Adelbern’s anger, according to Rytlock). Only other ghosts not affected by the Foefire can trick them (hence the method behind the AC explorable path where you coat yourself in ectoplasm to trick Ghast).

Nay of the Ether.8913:

I never said humans in the vicinity of the foefire survived, I said ascalonians survived, there’s a big difference. The foefire didn’t obliterate the entirety of the ascalon region, just the areas around the city. Not to mention people (refugees) that had fled or were fleeing. don’t forget the settlement in ebonhawke too. If it had cleaned out the whole ascalonian region there would have been no charr at all left because they got incinerated by the blast.

It affected most humans in the entire region. Only those on the outskirts were unaffected – even in Rebel’s Seclusion they were affected (unless it turns out those weren’t Foefire ghosts).

The only charr incinerated in the blast were those in the city itself – those just outside the city were left alive and saw the Foefire in its entirety. But as evidence by the ghostly presence throughout the region of Ascalon, the Foefire’s effects was far greater than just the city.

Narcemus.1348:

Or possibly, the Foefire blast had an effect on the ghosts remaining within the Catacombs and bound them to Adlebern’s will as well.

Unlikely. It didn’t affect the steward or whatever-he-was that was inside the palace when the Foefire occurred.

I don’t see why ghosts underground would be affected when a closer ghost wasn’t.

Valid point….

There is a Charr memorial east of Ascalon Catacomb upon a low rise plateau. It placate commemorate the Char General who is the only survivor on the siege on Ascalon City. His prophetic vision foresaw what would to come on the final assault on the city, but no one listen to him and only he, himself, stayed behind while all his comrades went in. This tells me that the foefire only obliterate Ascalon City itself and its immediate vicinity which should leave the rest of Ascalon Kingdom and remaining surviving human refugees who lived in other parts of the kingdom apart from the capital at the mercy of the Charr.

But because of the spread out nature of the ascalonian ghosts there seems to be only two options.

Either…

A. The Foefire effected humans differently than charr, and the effect on humans was far more widespread.

Or…

B. The ascalonian ghosts we see spread throughout Ascalon are just troops that Adlebern is sending to recapture old towns and fortifications.

I prefer the idea of the last one, just because all of the articles and tales that I have read seem to point towards Ascalon City being the last thing, other than Ebonhawke, remaining in human hands before being besieged. Nothing says it outright, but it points towards claiming Ascalon City being the major pinnacle in the Flame Legion Imperator claiming the title of Kahn Ur. Plus, basic war strategy tells me that having all those random humans in those other locations while besieging the city could be a bad call.

Narcemus.1348:

But because of the spread out nature of the ascalonian ghosts there seems to be only two options.

Either…

A. The Foefire effected humans differently than charr, and the effect on humans was far more widespread.

Or…

B. The ascalonian ghosts we see spread throughout Ascalon are just troops that Adlebern is sending to recapture old towns and fortifications.

I prefer the idea of the last one, just because all of the articles and tales that I have read seem to point towards Ascalon City being the last thing, other than Ebonhawke, remaining in human hands before being besieged. Nothing says it outright, but it points towards claiming Ascalon City being the major pinnacle in the Flame Legion Imperator claiming the title of Kahn Ur. Plus, basic war strategy tells me that having all those random humans in those other locations while besieging the city could be a bad call.

The first book, Ghosts of Ascalon, specifically says that only the charr inside the city were killed whereas all living humans essentially everywhere except Ebonhawke were turned into the ghosts we see. This could have been retconned since then, but i doubt they would retcon this. Just wanted to clarify.

Avariz.8241:

There is a Charr memorial east of Ascalon Catacomb upon a low rise plateau. It placate commemorate the Char General who is the only survivor on the siege on Ascalon City. His prophetic vision foresaw what would to come on the final assault on the city, but no one listen to him and only he, himself, stayed behind while all his comrades went in. This tells me that the foefire only obliterate Ascalon City itself and its immediate vicinity which should leave the rest of Ascalon Kingdom and remaining surviving human refugees who lived in other parts of the kingdom apart from the capital at the mercy of the Charr.

You refer to this I take it?

A few corrections must be made:

1. He was no general. He was a legionnaire who led the Fireshadows, an elite scouting and assassination warband for the Flame Legion.
2. His legion was tasked with assassinating King Adelbern before the assault on the city. They succeeded in infiltrating the palace but instead of Adelbern found the dying Savione (the “steward” ghost mentioned several times above), who warned them that the king had gone mad and intended to curse everything with his sword Magdaer. There was nothing prophetic about it (nor does the plaque even make mention or hint to such a thing…).
3. Frye and his warband attempted to warn the Flame Legion Imperator who was leading the assault. Said Imperator laughed it off and treated the Fireshadows as cowards and traitors, and their punishment was tying them to posts atop The Viewing Hill (that plateau with the plinth), to force them to witness the “victory” they would not have a chance to take part in.
4. From witnessing the Foefire, he and his warband’s fur was turned pure white and they were the sole survivors of the Foefire, being just outside of the effect on charr. He was not the sole survivor (as said in the plinth), as his warband also survived.

But we know for a fact that the Foefire’s effects on humans, and even cats and cows went far beyond the city walls. Barradin, the ghosts in Blazeridge, those in Iron Marches and Diessa Plateau, these were all ghosts made by the Foefire.

Foefire ghosts are unique in that they cannot be sent off to the Mists. Killing a ghost sends them off to the Mists (at least in most cases), but the Foefire’s curse prevents this. The charr in the city were just that close to the blast center that they were killed.

Please, go buy and read Ghosts of Ascalon. It explains this in detail. That plinth is based from events told in far more detail in the novel as well.

Edit: I would prefer that it was Narcemus’ second reasoning, but sadly we’ve been told time and time again – in Ghosts of Ascalon, in game, and in interviews – that the effects of the Foefire covered Ascalon almost in its entirety (though sometimes it is said to be “in its entirety” but “Ebonhawke wasn’t part of Ascalon at the time” which to be is just excuses for a plothole in wording better fixed by saying “it didn’t reach that far southeast”)

Heh… it’s nice that I managed to start an interesting debate.

Anyway, as to the OP, my personal feelings are that the people who designed the AC, and more broadly, most ghost-related material in-game, weren’t entirely tuned in the the specifics of the timeline- so things like there being no one around anymore to build tombs for the fallen, or that at the time of the Foefire humans were supposed to have been bottled up in Ascalon City and Ebonhawke, these might not have factored into the game design. Lore explanations can likely be made ex post facto, as this thread demonstrates, but my gut feeling is that this was a slip up.

On a related note, I had to chuckle slightly during a recent interview when Scott McGough, one of Anet’s story experts, referred to Zhaitan as the first dragon to rise.

@Konig If you talk to Rytlock during AC story mode, he describes Vassar and Ralena as two of Adelbern’s four champions at the time of the Foefire. And it has been a while, so I may be misremembering, but I believe the priest of Grenth hanging around the Shaemoor graveyard says that normal ghosts come back repeatedly as well.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

On a related note, I had to chuckle slightly during a recent interview when Scott McGough, one of Anet’s story experts, referred to Zhaitan as the first dragon to rise.

I think what he meant there was that Zhaitan was the first dragon that pushed hard enough that everyone agreed that it had to be taken down Right Catting Now.

The Foefire’s lore is most likely to be the shoddiest piece of vanilla GW2, effectively making approximately zero sense. It was done for two reasons, of which one is acceptable – begrudgingly, with a sour tase left in the mouth – while the other is just a plain insult.

Reason #1: the Foefire killing the charr only in the city, while it went much further when affecting humans. Obviously, it was done so a new playable race could be given the entirety of an old, familiar region. However, if you think about, Adelbern hated the charr and the charr only. How come his hatred for them didn’t go further, wiping out all charr in Ascalon, but killed all humans instead, turning them into ghosts? Which, imo, should’ve required significantly more magical energy (killing, binding the ghost, brainwashing him/her) than just simply incinerating (killing).

Reason #2: To appeal to the GW1 vets of whom they think are… not intelligent enough to realize the glaring lore inconsistencies (read: screw-ups).

As Narcemus said, no amount of your disbelief’s suspension can help in not seeing the absolute nonsense of having all those humans running around in Ascalon when the charr were in control of most of the country. Back in GoA, it was nicely done how they explained the ghosts’ reliving of Foefire day: a lone shepherd and his apprentice herding sheep long gone, not far from the walls of Ebonhawke. That’s entirely believable: they weren’t expecting Adelbern would pull off such a horrendous act, so the Foefire caught them off guard before they could return to the safety of the fortress.

Then come GW2, and you have Foefire ghosts infesting the Plains of Ashford as well as Iron Marches. The area of Iron Marches (Northlands) have been overrun by charr since day 1 of the Guild Wars universe (back in pre-Searing – and in post-Searing as well). There were multiple breaches in the Great Northern Wall by the time of the Foefire, so it is guaranteed the charr had filtered through and surrounded Ascalon City from all sides, securing the whole of Ashford. By that point all civilians should’ve fled to the City or Ebonhawke, while the dead in the crypts and catacombs should’ve passed onto the Mists or in case they didn’t, they should’ve been unaffected by the Foefire.

Instead, we get the ghots of people who have been dead since the 1070ies:

Dispatch Captain Calhaan’s Ghost

Captain Calhaan and his watchmen are reliving the day of the second charr invasion under Bonfaaz Burntfur, which happened in 1072 AE… um, yeah. Calhaan’s likely to have died that day, too, as he’s no longer seen afterwards and IIRC, he stayed to fight while our characters escaped.

Destroy the Ghostly Trebuchet on the Bridge

Ascalonian Siege Engineer: “The charr invasion force. Captain Calhaan was right. They’ve spotted us. Back to the wall!”

This guy’s dialogue also speaks of events happening in 1072 AE.

Then the fact that Warmaster Grast (who’s fighting gravelings below Ascalon City instead of being on his King’s side – that’s probably what he was doing if he’s reliving it), Duke Barradin, Farrah Cappo, Armsman Pitney, Grazden the Protector, Ivor Trueshot, Ralena and Vassar, Viggo, and many more died in the Foefire, on the very same day and away from Ascalon City – while they rise straight from their coffins/crypts/tombs -is impossible.

Also, north of Blightwater Basin in Blazerdige Steppes there’re burnt out ruins of houses. The ghostly inhabitants, if you don’t attack them, start into a series of ambient dialogue and they are CLEARLY from a time before the Searing. A couple is preparing for their marriage, while a guy’s trying to hit on every girl in the village, only to get brutally rejected every time. If I’m not too lazy, I’ll go there and make some screens.

I always take the originator(person or persons) of the art to be the actual authentic fact (main line and truest) of the art. In this case the GW1 and GW2 game. Any other art form that compliment this I would enjoy as an addition. For example a film base on a book, I would enjoy them both but any differences between them I would base my facts on the original book. This is also true when a book is based on a film, I would also enjoy them both but any difference between them I would only rely my facts on the film and not the book. Now in regard to differences between GW1 and GW2, and the many books based on the games; I always base my facts on the games and not on the books. The originator of GW1 and GW2 to me is the actual games produced and owned by Anet. However, GW1 and GW2 the games themselves do make alterations to its own facts patch after patch little by little so my facts do get mixed up or can be out dated.

On #1: There are certainly some possible explanations for that.

The simplest is that the power of the Foefire is essentially channeled through allegiance – it was able to “ghostify” those within the radius who had allegiance to Adelbern (or the crown of Ascalon in general). Thus, it got all the Ascalonian humans, and their livestock and pets also got picked up due to the animals having loyalty to their owners. Charr, on the other hand, and other nonhumans, do not have allegiance to the bearer of Magdaer, and thus the Foefire was only able to do anything to them at ground zero, and even then didn’t have the power to bind, only to kill.

(This might also somewhat explain Ebonhawke – Ebonhawke seem to have largely been formed from people who were disillusioned with Adelbern in one way or another, and that may have been enough to rebuff the effect of the Foefire. This may also go some way to how it made Foefire ghosts out of those who were already dead – any ghosts that happened to be already lingering who had allegiance to Adelbern got caught up in the Foefire, thus meaning that the ghost of anyone who died between Adelbern’s coronation and the Foefire had the potential to be affected if they hadn’t moved on.)

Now, none of this is explained ingame – but ArenaNet does like to limit our knowledge of the world to that of characters inside the world, and as yet nobody in the world has any idea just what the mechanics of the Foefire actually were. It’s likely that the only one who knew was Adelbern himself, and he isn’t inclined to explain himself.

The source of Foefire is the sword. Two swords of the same kin were made according to legend. To understand Forfire we need to find the source of the swords. It is possible the kingship of Ascalon is tied to the two swords – the land and its people are one with the two swords.

Another possible explanation about the raising of those who are already dead could be that Adlebern raised them afterwards. IMO, it makes sense that after the initial blast he was able to go into the catacombs and raise any that he felt would be useful in the continued war against the charr. Some of his generals being those that he brought back, such as Vassar and Ralena who appear to have already been dead prior to the Foefire.

@Thalador’s #1: I always viewed the situation as this:

Magdaer is an Orrian artifact, human made supposedly, so it was likely designed to create an eternal army to fight the enemy. Why not focus on incineration of enemies? Well, can you really tell who the enemy will be in 1,000+ years? It is said that the ghosts are full of Adelbern’s hatred, yada yada… but was he ever able to control the effects of the Foefire? To quote Adelbern in Ember’s retelling of the events of the Foefire from Ghosts of Ascalon (page 282): “I have long known that Magdaer had other powers – remnants of the gods themselves. We Ascalonians may be doomed, but Ascalon will live on forever!”

To me, this implies that Adelbern didn’t chose what the spell effected, and perhaps couldn’t. But he did know what the spell would do, and so he simply used the spell.

What if it was a spell devised – perhaps by Balthazar all things given – to create an eternal army full of bloodlust for the caster’s foe?

I always viewed it to be that the charr in the city itself incinerating as merely being that close to the spell’s epicenter, not that it was an effect of the spell but merely their exposure to such a huge amount of magical energy. And that the spell’s intention was to merely affect humans (though why it affected cows… I don’t know).

Avariz.8241:

I always take the originator(person or persons) of the art to be the actual authentic fact (main line and truest) of the art. In this case the GW1 and GW2 game. Any other art form that compliment this I would enjoy as an addition.

-snip-

Now in regard to differences between GW1 and GW2, and the many books based on the games; I always base my facts on the games and not on the books. The originator of GW1 and GW2 to me is the actual games produced and owned by Anet. However, GW1 and GW2 the games themselves do make alterations to its own facts patch after patch little by little so my facts do get mixed up or can be out dated.

There’s two problems with your proclamation:

1) For the case of Ghosts of Ascalon and Sea of Sorrows, these were written/heavily edited by Ree and Jeff Grubb (anti-respectively). If anyone knows how to keep consistency in the games’ lore with the books’ lore, it would be the two who’s job is lore continuity.

2) It has been explicitly stated that the game was altered to match the description of the books – they even added a tower to Ascalon City, so that it would match the description made of the city in the book. Edge of Destiny seems to be exempt from this somewhat, though they’ve made explanations for why those differences (the LA arena mainly) existed.

Though it isn’t the case in other series, with Guild Wars, the books are as accurate as the game – again, exception being Edge of Destiny somewhat (as it wasn’t as heavily edited by Anet than GoA, nor written by Anet like SoS).

It used to be a statue of my PC, but she stole credit for that also.

If anything, it’s possible that the books are more accurate to the game’s lore than some of the stuff we see in-game – both in the general distinction between game mechanics and how the world actually works, and the likelihood that the designers have let stuff slip through that doesn’t actually fit the lore in all the hundreds of hearts and other content.