Guild Wars 2

Does anyone know what event occurred that caused her to no longer be addressed as “Lady” Kasmeer Meade? The Herald in Party Politics almost announces her to the party as Lady, before quickly correcting himself, so evidently this retraction of her nobility is relatively recent, but what could have happened to cause her to lose this nobility recently?

Kasmeer Meade is formerly a noble. Kasmeer’s mother died when she was young, and her family fell on hard times when her father was murdered in debtor’s prison after spending everything to pay off the debts of her brother, Kyle, in early 1326 AE. When the creditors took all of the Meade family’s possessions, they allowed Kasmeer to take a single item from the house: she took a stuffed bear she had since she was young that was a gift from her father, and she had her mother’s staff with her already.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kasmeer

That doesn’t explain how she lost her title, unless her father sold it to pay debts.

If it’s anything like European nobility you don’t technically need to be rich to have a title.

Wanderer.3248:

That doesn’t explain how she lost her title, unless her father sold it to pay debts.

If it’s anything like European nobility you don’t technically need to be rich to have a title.

It’s not like that at all, it’s like Krytan nobility. You’re only a noble until someone decides you’re not. Then you’re a walking target.

. . . gods I miss Ascalon. Insane rambling kings, rocks for breakfast, but at least you knew who was a noble and who wasn’t.

That’s a funny thing though, thinking on it. We hear Rurik tended to distance himself from the Ascalon nobility and such… but we hardly saw them. A few dukes in the army, but not much of the fancy dressed nobles IIRC.

Kasmeer likely lost the title when the family holdings were seized. Hence why Anise mentions telling the full story to Jennah, with hints Jennah might grant the title back to Kasmeer, and maybe even some holdings or possessions back (If they are still accessible.)

Didn’t Kasmeer explain Krytan nobility in the first episode?

Kyrel.8942:

Didn’t Kasmeer explain Krytan nobility in the first episode?

Yes. That explanation also tells when the title was stripped, for non-human characters.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Disturbance_in_Brisban_Wildlands

Though if I recall, she was being called “Lady” when she was first introduced in season one. It’s an inconsistency, but one that can easily be attributed to not knowing her situation.

Is Kasmeer’s story suggesting that nobility in Kryta reflects your value to the Queen or your service to Kryta? Isn’t that insulting to all the commoners and street rats who serve Kryta every day? What makes Kasmeer special?

If noble status is that easy to accomplish, shouldn’t every human PC have ascended to noble status?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Wanderer.3248:

That doesn’t explain how she lost her title, unless her father sold it to pay debts.

If it’s anything like European nobility you don’t technically need to be rich to have a title.

It’s not like that at all, it’s like Krytan nobility. You’re only a noble until someone decides you’re not. Then you’re a walking target.

. . . gods I miss Ascalon. Insane rambling kings, rocks for breakfast, but at least you knew who was a noble and who wasn’t.

Yeah, seems Kasmeer’s father dishonored the family or something, so their nobility was removed. Apparently (based on the new episode) Jennah can simply be convinced to nobilize or renobilize you!

Shiren.9532:

Is Kasmeer’s story suggesting that nobility in Kryta reflects your value to the Queen or your service to Kryta? Isn’t that insulting to all the commoners and street rats who serve Kryta every day? What makes Kasmeer special?

Yes, in fact all medieval forms of government are insulting to the commoners who get relegated to a role slightly above cattle. The very nature of the nobilis creates a inherent society wide classism where ones value is measures by whom you were born to (cough Jennah cough) or whom you kiss up to.

CureForLiving.5360:

Yes, in fact all medieval forms of government are insulting to the commoners who get relegated to a role slightly above cattle. The very nature of the nobilis creates a inherent society wide classism where ones value is measures by whom you were born to (cough Jennah cough) or whom you kiss up to.

It is interesting when you start looking about when the whole thing started shifting away from that and rulers realized it was better to try to keep the people happy rather than treat them as expendable or lesser beings. Though, to be fair, that lesson still has to be relearned even in modern times . . .

. . . and let that be all the political talk of modern world reality, please?

Though, on a different note . . . in reality whomever was the King/Queen/Emperor was less important than to whom you were required to pay taxes or tithe to. Sure, the King might be a great guy and popular with his subjects . . . but was the local lord any good for the serfs? The King might be a generous soul, but would the local lord then take more for each bonus given by royal decree?

To translate this into Krytan, it is possible Queen Jennah might want the common folk to have every advantage which they can have under her rule. However, those who are closer to those people and hold higher office can easily make it a moot point and claim it’s only the law and will of the Crown which permits this.

And this, my friends and neighbors, is how a good and just ruler can get overthrown by popular opinion.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Though, on a different note . . . in reality whomever was the King/Queen/Emperor was less important than to whom you were required to pay taxes or tithe to. Sure, the King might be a great guy and popular with his subjects . . . but was the local lord any good for the serfs? The King might be a generous soul, but would the local lord then take more for each bonus given by royal decree?

To translate this into Krytan, it is possible Queen Jennah might want the common folk to have every advantage which they can have under her rule. However, those who are closer to those people and hold higher office can easily make it a moot point and claim it’s only the law and will of the Crown which permits this.

And this, my friends and neighbors, is how a good and just ruler can get overthrown by popular opinion.

Well the system of lords was in place because of the clear technological limitations at the time, a king could literally not govern a country all on his own especially if every order needs to go by horse back over a week long journey. The lords were given small easily managed areas and they’d run the day to day stuff while the king would be more in command of them.
Krytan nobility doesn’t seem to play such a role actually. They seem more to be a legacy of such a times. The Krytan kingdom is not (from what we see in game) so large (or at least densely populated enough) that there is a need for complicated hierarchy, and most nobles live in Divinity’s Reach in anycase so they’re not governing anything. Most likely when Kryta was less stable, the system of lords was implemented, as things became more stable nobles remained nobles but no longer had some same role as feudal lords so some moved into the ministry, others just hung around throwing fancy parties.

Nobility can obviously vary but quite often it can hold responsibilities as well as privileges. Kasmeer’s father might not have been able to supply troops to the crown, collect taxes for the crown, and so on while he is in prison. Remember also that the nobility often used to have full legal authority over their estates, acting as judge and juror, so that would be impossible to continue from jail. Nobles could also have had legal protection even against the crown justice, such as the trial by combat in the personal story, so removing a title would be another way of enforcing the court’s authority. It is also possible that the Ministry want to remove as many nobles as possible and have their estates/powers taken over by the state.

There is possible plot emerging here with the gambling. Minister Estelle has now been blackmailed with gambling debts accrued while gambling against ruffians (not nobles). Kasmeer’s brother (?) built up gambling debts that led to her father going to jail. Could this be an organized White Mantle/bandit operation that drags nobles into debt and then extorts favors?

CureForLiving.5360:

The Krytan kingdom is not (from what we see in game) so large (or at least densely populated enough)

Assuming that Tyria is roughly the same size and density as Earth, then according to the globe Kryta could be the size of France in lore. It’s just everything in game is scaled down for playability and practicality. Also given at least how cultivated Queensdale and Gendarran are, it isn’t a stretch to assume it was fairly well populated and into the millions.

Shiren.9532:

Is Kasmeer’s story suggesting that nobility in Kryta reflects your value to the Queen or your service to Kryta? Isn’t that insulting to all the commoners and street rats who serve Kryta every day? What makes Kasmeer special?

If noble status is that easy to accomplish, shouldn’t every human PC have ascended to noble status?

No, I’d say it’s a bit more complex then that.

You see, the way it sounds is as if you had a specific skill, and one Jennah PERSONALLY wanted to make use of, she’d invite you to her court and make you a noble.

Let’s say she wanted Kasmeer’s ability to detect lies, she could invite Kasmeer to the court and have her attend meetings alongside her to figure lies from truth among the ministry.

But at the same time, a skilled farmer isn’t going to have something she needs personally done. It doesn’t make Kasmeer a special snowflake, it means Jennah is granting her a pardon from what happened to her Father, OR wants to make personal use or Kasmeer’s abilities.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Though, on a different note . . . in reality whomever was the King/Queen/Emperor was less important than to whom you were required to pay taxes or tithe to. Sure, the King might be a great guy and popular with his subjects . . . but was the local lord any good for the serfs? The King might be a generous soul, but would the local lord then take more for each bonus given by royal decree?

To translate this into Krytan, it is possible Queen Jennah might want the common folk to have every advantage which they can have under her rule. However, those who are closer to those people and hold higher office can easily make it a moot point and claim it’s only the law and will of the Crown which permits this.

And this, my friends and neighbors, is how a good and just ruler can get overthrown by popular opinion.

Which, from some things we’ve had from ArenaNet, seems to be pretty much what’s going on in Kryta. Jennah seems to want to improve the lives for common Krytans, but Caudecus’ faction in the Ministry is looking to ensure their power and privileges don’t get eroded by improving the rights of the rest of society

Stooperdale.3560:

There is possible plot emerging here with the gambling. Minister Estelle has now been blackmailed with gambling debts accrued while gambling against ruffians (not nobles). Kasmeer’s brother (?) built up gambling debts that led to her father going to jail. Could this be an organized White Mantle/bandit operation that drags nobles into debt and then extorts favors?

I’d been thinking much the same. From Kasmeer’s story when it first came up (I think it might have been during or just after Dragon Bash) to me it had the hallmarks of a carefully orchestrated assassination and coup – strike the weak point of the family to draw out the head, arrange (likely through a corrupt court) for the head of the family to end up somewhere where he can be killed without raising suspicion, while meanwhile disgracing the family so its power can be destroyed and its assets seized.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Caudecus’ faction is commonly looking for ways to bring down nobles who are loyal to the crown – the noble personal story strikes me as another example, albeit a cruder one than what the Meades were hit by.

(Incidentally, on the possibility of Kasmeer’s title being reinstated – ennobling through performing a great service to the Crown is probably legitimate, although probably something Jennah can’t do on a whim… and reinstating the heir to a noble family is probably easier than raising a new family. That said, if it wasn’t for having to keep in mind the possible response by the Ministry to raising new nobles, then if street rat and commoner PCs hadn’t then gone off to join an order, it’s entirely likely they’d have been given the Krytan equivalent of a knighthood at least.)

Stooperdale.3560:

There is possible plot emerging here with the gambling. Minister Estelle has now been blackmailed with gambling debts accrued while gambling against ruffians (not nobles). Kasmeer’s brother (?) built up gambling debts that led to her father going to jail. Could this be an organized White Mantle/bandit operation that drags nobles into debt and then extorts favors?

Maybe one of the writers just has a deep dislike of gambling. Sometimes these sort of themes subconsciously work themselves into things.

Kalavier.1097:

Shiren.9532:

Is Kasmeer’s story suggesting that nobility in Kryta reflects your value to the Queen or your service to Kryta? Isn’t that insulting to all the commoners and street rats who serve Kryta every day? What makes Kasmeer special?

If noble status is that easy to accomplish, shouldn’t every human PC have ascended to noble status?

No, I’d say it’s a bit more complex then that.

You see, the way it sounds is as if you had a specific skill, and one Jennah PERSONALLY wanted to make use of, she’d invite you to her court and make you a noble.

Let’s say she wanted Kasmeer’s ability to detect lies, she could invite Kasmeer to the court and have her attend meetings alongside her to figure lies from truth among the ministry.

But at the same time, a skilled farmer isn’t going to have something she needs personally done. It doesn’t make Kasmeer a special snowflake, it means Jennah is granting her a pardon from what happened to her Father, OR wants to make personal use or Kasmeer’s abilities.

What skill does Faren have then? I’m sure there are many nobles that are less than useful to the Queen or Kryta in general. I always thought Nobility was largely a birthright. Sure it could be earned, but it seems strange that Kasmeer would regain it so easily.

The “special skill” plot smells like a “special snowflake” plot constructed to wedge Kasmeer back into nobility and resolve the tragic background story.

Also, Anise, Jennah and any number of other people grew up in Divinity’s Reach playing politics their whole lives. Kasmeer wasn’t portrayed as someone who took things like that seriously (Angel described her as Tyria’s Paris Hilton and when we first meet her she seemed like she cruised by with an easy life that wouldn’t teach you how to play politics), why would she pick up the skill of reading body language when there should be far more experienced liars (and lie detectors) in the Kyrtan nobility?

I suspect Angel is finally writing her “mesmer mind magic” plot and Kasmeer is only pretending to read body language (to hide her mesmer telepathy from people who would fear her because of it). The only part I can’t figure out is why Kasmeer is special. It was stated it happened around the time of the Tower of Nightmares, but why would Kasmeer of all people get special powers?

Don’t they say you can both be appointed as a noble and inherit it? Plus, how much do we know about the ranking of titles? Maybe appointed nobles can reach only so high like Viscount, Baron, or Knight?

Lostwingman.5034:

Don’t they say you can both be appointed as a noble and inherit it? Plus, how much do we know about the ranking of titles? Maybe appointed nobles can reach only so high like Viscount, Baron, or Knight?

Historically speaking, I think “Baron” was the sort of distant blood relative while “Count” was not. “Knights” are almost certainly not necessarily of noble birth, but require certain qualities which make it harder for the common man/woman to earn it.

Shiren.9532:

The only part I can’t figure out is why Kasmeer is special. It was stated it happened around the time of the Tower of Nightmares, but why would Kasmeer of all people get special powers?

We shouldn’t forget that Kasmeer and Faren know each other. They were once a group of eight and this past seems to have a special sory (Kasmeer doesn’t like Faren). Whatever makes her special, it might be the same like Faren and six others we cannot tie into the group (maybe they are already known).

Kasmeer was the major investigator of the Tower and revealed it (while we still don’t really know why she found it). She was one of the people who were exposed the longest time to the poison of the Tower (she stayed even after everyone was rescued). Same goes for Marjory, but she is a necromancer and it might have ties with mesmer magic. The whole tower was hidden under a giant illusion and the poison caused illusions showing that they was a lot of mind altering magic around (and the Tower itself showed consciousness).

As a side note: the story that Kasmeer told about loosing her family and manor reminded me on how Caudecus got his manor.

There’s also the manner of Kasmeer’s… interesting method of preventing a dress from being ruined in the miasma, and how that might have lead to more exposure to what was there.

Shiren.9532:

What skill does Faren have then? I’m sure there are many nobles that are less than useful to the Queen or Kryta in general. I always thought Nobility was largely a birthright. Sure it could be earned, but it seems strange that Kasmeer would regain it so easily.

Did you miss the whole line of “You can inherit it, OR have it granted to you by being invited into Jennah’s court.” Cause, it seems like you very obviously did.

The “special skill” plot smells like a “special snowflake” plot constructed to wedge Kasmeer back into nobility and resolve the tragic background story.

Also, Anise, Jennah and any number of other people grew up in Divinity’s Reach playing politics their whole lives. Kasmeer wasn’t portrayed as someone who took things like that seriously (Angel described her as Tyria’s Paris Hilton and when we first meet her she seemed like she cruised by with an easy life that wouldn’t teach you how to play politics), why would she pick up the skill of reading body language when there should be far more experienced liars (and lie detectors) in the Kyrtan nobility?

Um, did you miss the whole point of this update in the party, where she expands and uses her NEW ability to detect lies easily with magic? One that has started developing since tower of nightmares?

I suspect Angel is finally writing her “mesmer mind magic” plot and Kasmeer is only pretending to read body language (to hide her mesmer telepathy from people who would fear her because of it). The only part I can’t figure out is why Kasmeer is special. It was stated it happened around the time of the Tower of Nightmares, but why would Kasmeer of all people get special powers?

When has she mentioned reading body language? And it’s just detecting lies. She isn’t becoming superman.

Why would the player, who can be a freaking STREET RAT become commander of the Pact, and slay an elder dragon?

Lostwingman.5034:

Don’t they say you can both be appointed as a noble and inherit it? Plus, how much do we know about the ranking of titles? Maybe appointed nobles can reach only so high like Viscount, Baron, or Knight?

Yep. Kasmeer’s line says it, you can inherit nobility (noble families), OR have nobility granted to you because you were invited to and joined Jennah’s court.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

We shouldn’t forget that Kasmeer and Faren know each other. They were once a group of eight and this past seems to have a special sory (Kasmeer doesn’t like Faren). Whatever makes her special, it might be the same like Faren and six others we cannot tie into the group (maybe they are already known).

As a side note: the story that Kasmeer told about loosing her family and manor reminded me on how Caudecus got his manor.

Group of eight? Was this mentioned in her short story? I doubt Jennah’s court only has six people, might mean group of eight noble friends (of sorts).

And how did Caudecus get his manor? The thing is almost the same size (or bigger) as beetlestone(or whatever the town is called) after all :P

Kalavier.1097:

Why would the player, who can be a freaking STREET RAT become commander of the Pact, and slay an elder dragon?

Looking back, I lament that our characters don’t start off with a class mentor who “taught us the ropes” and kind of lends credence to how we went from ‘random citizen’ to ‘one person army’. Could’ve made the Personal Story feel much more unique to our character if there was something tied to our class. Kind of off topic but something I’ve been thinking recently.

Kalavier.1097:

And how did Caudecus get his manor? The thing is almost the same size (or bigger) as beetlestone(or whatever the town is called) after all :P

There is a guy in Beetletun who claims to be the architect of the manor and is wanting to write a book about his work.

ANet pls, I want this book. ANet pls.

Just a quick point, this isn’t what happened but I want to note that even though European nobility titles could in deed be held without money, they also could be sold in certain cases. The Byzantine Emperor title was actually sold a few times after the empire itself was lost to the Ottomans. The Empire fell around 1452, but the title was sold around for a while longer. France actually owned the Byzantine crown for a while until it was pretty obvious nobody was getting it back.

Yes, it is a bit weird. Wealth and title are not related to each other

The argument about her father not being able to collect taxes or provide military forces makes no sense since Kryta obviously has centralized military control, and we don’t really know much about governing rights and relations in Kryta. (Also not all feudal lords had the same obligations to the Crown back in feudalism)

Other thing, if Kas’s family lost their titles and rights simply because they did something publically shameful, I don’t see how Kryta has any nobility at all. It is too much of interpretative category.

Unfortunately, ANet decided to give us all the info on their military groups, and nothing about their political and legal system. Big fail considering that each time I do a human story its something about party politics.

In around the time period that Kryta seems to be set, it was still the assumption that the nobles would provide military support to the crown – however, there was a special tax that the nobles could pay in lieu of appearing in person with their own troops. (In fact, in some early forms of feudalism, there were no taxes paid to the Crown by the aristocracy – military service was all there was.)

How appearing in person with their troops fits in line with basically all of the soldiers we see being members of an order is unclear, but my gut feeling is that ‘providing military forces’, when not waived through paying the scutage, basically translates into raising, training, equipping, and sponsoring one or more Seraph or Ministry Guard units – which may, if not called elsewhere by the crown or ministry respectively, default to defending and policing the personal fief of the noble who raised them.

Personally, I also get the feeling that the Krytan orders (apart from the Shining Blade) aren’t as unified as they may look at first glance. The Seraph have five to ten companies that have no official unified control below the Crown – Logan has become a ‘first among equals’ unofficial commander, but effectively the Seraph is a collection of semi-independent armies with common equipment and uniforms rather than a national army in modern terms. The Ministry Guard, on the other hand, seems to have more formal organisation, but in real terms, it wouldn’t surprise me if most units that are attached to a particular minister are more loyal to the minister they’re assigned to protect than to the central command.

Even if it turns out that Kryta is at the point where basically every noble pays scutage to support the orders rather than providing military forces, the latter could (like trial be combat) be one of those archaic laws that’s still on the books even if it almost never gets invoked – if the Meades had had a personal force loyal enough to them to continue fighting in their name despite the Meades’ bankrupcy, it’s possible that they could have avoiding the stripping of their title by sending those forces in lieu of the missed taxes. Since they had neither money nor a personal army, though, they defaulted on the obligations of nobility.

Regarding the Krytan legal system, there’s a little, but it basically boils down to ‘the Ministry controls it’ (there are limits as to what they can get away with, but it certainly isn’t independent, and if the evidence isn’t overwhelmingly the other way, the result of a trial will probably be what the Ministry wants the result to be). Unless you’re a foreigner, in which case the local Seraph commander decides your fate – which may be a blessing if the Ministry has reason to want an unfortunate fate for you.

There’s a few tidbits around on the political system as well – basically, if you think of the Crown as an inherited presidency and the Ministry as Congress and judiciary combined, you’ll probably miss a few subtleties but have the right rough idea.

draxynnic.3719:

In around the time period that Kryta seems to be set, it was still the assumption that the nobles would provide military support to the crown – however, there was a special tax that the nobles could pay in lieu of appearing in person with their own troops. (In fact, in some early forms of feudalism, there were no taxes paid to the Crown by the aristocracy – military service was all there was.)

You can’t really relate socio-historical setting of GW to real world. One key difference here is that majority of nobles own property and estate in Divinity’s Reach, they have little outside it. Second, lands are not owned by the Crown. Third there are no serfs. Farmers are the ones who own their land, work on their land, and sell the products of the land.

draxynnic.3719:

How appearing in person with their troops fits in line with basically all of the soldiers we see being members of an order is unclear, but my gut feeling is that ‘providing military forces’, when not waived through paying the scutage, basically translates into raising, training, equipping, and sponsoring one or more Seraph or Ministry Guard units – which may, if not called elsewhere by the crown or ministry respectively, default to defending and policing the personal fief of the noble who raised them.

You see ingame that the training (and regruitation?) is done by the Seraphs, who have outposts and a chain of command, at top of which is the Crown – supreme commander (duties currently delegated to Logan)

draxynnic.3719:

Personally, I also get the feeling that the Krytan orders (apart from the Shining Blade) aren’t as unified as they may look at first glance. The Seraph have five to ten companies that have no official unified control below the Crown – Logan has become a ‘first among equals’ unofficial commander, but effectively the Seraph is a collection of semi-independent armies with common equipment and uniforms rather than a national army in modern terms.

You are right about that, but the important thing is that it is the Crown’s militia, not the army of local feudal lord.

draxynnic.3719:

There’s a few tidbits around on the political system as well – basically, if you think of the Crown as an inherited presidency and the Ministry as Congress and judiciary combined, you’ll probably miss a few subtleties but have the right rough idea.

Yep, and there is the problem. Considering how much of human PS is politics related, they have given us zero info about their rights and obligations beside the basic institutional info (ministry and queen construct laws, queen passes/vetos them, ministry judiciary comitee serves as the highest court)

Lostwingman.5034:

Looking back, I lament that our characters don’t start off with a class mentor who “taught us the ropes” and kind of lends credence to how we went from ‘random citizen’ to ‘one person army’. Could’ve made the Personal Story feel much more unique to our character if there was something tied to our class. Kind of off topic but something I’ve been thinking recently.

But I’m sure the RPers are happy with it this way, since it gives more room for the crafting of their own backstory.

kasoki.5180:

You can’t really relate socio-historical setting of GW to real world.

Well comparisons is perhaps not accurate, but it’s the best we have at this moment. Honestly I think ANet just produced some amalgamated nobility-esque-concept that serves whatever purpose is needed (Oh we need a bunch of out of touch people? Nobles! Need someone who’s very corrupt? Nobles!).

Would be nice if ANet could give us a nice long explanation of the hows and whys of nobility, but like I said I don’t think it exists.

Kalavier.1097:

Horst Hortensie.5420:

We shouldn’t forget that Kasmeer and Faren know each other. They were once a group of eight and this past seems to have a special sory (Kasmeer doesn’t like Faren). Whatever makes her special, it might be the same like Faren and six others we cannot tie into the group (maybe they are already known).

As a side note: the story that Kasmeer told about loosing her family and manor reminded me on how Caudecus got his manor.

Group of eight? Was this mentioned in her short story? I doubt Jennah’s court only has six people, might mean group of eight noble friends (of sorts).

And how did Caudecus get his manor? The thing is almost the same size (or bigger) as beetlestone(or whatever the town is called) after all :P

The group of eight was mentioned during secret of southsun in ambient at the beach were Kasmeer and Faren stood around and talked. A short search didn’t show the dialogue. Gotta search more intense. I am not sure if it’s even in the wiki, because a reddit user drove this dialogue around (at a time were it still was open to scrutiny).

Caudecus got his manor from another noble, but again there I am failing to show evidence. Further am I not sure were I got this information (human PS, dungeon, Demmi or a random NPC between Beetlestone and Divnity’s Reach). It’s been a long time I read/heard it, but it was before I realized Kasmeer.

Wasn’t CM build for Caudecus? I mean, thats how I remember it from speaking with the guy who designed it, though I could remember it wrong :/

kasoki.5180:

You can’t really relate socio-historical setting of GW to real world. One key difference here is that majority of nobles own property and estate in Divinity’s Reach, they have little outside it. Second, lands are not owned by the Crown. Third there are no serfs. Farmers are the ones who own their land, work on their land, and sell the products of the land.

Historically, most nobles had property in the capital and/or the nearest large town as well as their estates – that’s one of the sources of the term ‘townhouse’. Presently, there’s only a couple of cases of explicit out-of-city estates, but keep in mind that ArenaNet has only put in enough detail to make a functional MMO rather than attempting to make a fully detailed kingdom simulator. There are probably others, in the various other settlements such as Claypool and Ascalon Settlement if not in the country per se.

Second, source please? (It’s actually arguable even now if there’s any such thing as private land that isn’t ultimately owned by the government – it just gets paid for in terms of land taxes rather than rent.)

Third, again, source please? There’s no serfs, sure, but that distinction means farmers are free to pack up and move elsewhere, not that they necessarily own the land. They could be renting… and most people who are renting still tend to refer to what they’re renting as ‘theirs’, even if that isn’t technically true.

draxynnic.3719:

You see ingame that the training (and regruitation?) is done by the Seraphs, who have outposts and a chain of command, at top of which is the Crown – supreme commander (duties currently delegated to Logan)

Just because we see some being done at this level, doesn’t mean it all is. Also, how do you know that the training being done at, say, Claypool, isn’t being organised in part by the local noble?

draxynnic.3719:

You are right about that, but the important thing is that it is the Crown’s militia, not the army of local feudal lord.

The army of a feudal kingdom is the Crown’s army, even if it’s mostly composed of the armies of fuedal lords.

draxynnic.3719:

Yep, and there is the problem. Considering how much of human PS is politics related, they have given us zero info about their rights and obligations beside the basic institutional info (ministry and queen construct laws, queen passes/vetos them, ministry judiciary comitee serves as the highest court)

Sure, I’d love to see a bit more information on the ins and outs of the structure and process. I’m not going to hold my breath, but I’d love to see it.

draxynnic.3719:

Historically, most nobles had property in the capital and/or the nearest large town as well as their estates – that’s one of the sources of the term ‘townhouse’.

Yes, they held property in the cities, but feudal lords held tenure over land. This doesn’t appear so in GW.

draxynnic.3719:

Second, source please? (It’s actually arguable even now if there’s any such thing as private land that isn’t ultimately owned by the government – it just gets paid for in terms of land taxes rather than rent.)

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lord_Arrin

It is even said so by the mayor of the town, so i think it isn’t some oversight.

draxynnic.3719:

Third, again, source please? There’s no serfs, sure, but that distinction means farmers are free to pack up and move elsewhere, not that they necessarily own the land. They could be renting… and most people who are renting still tend to refer to what they’re renting as ‘theirs’, even if that isn’t technically true.

Well, I can only say how each NPC says it’s theirs and gw wiki says that they are the owners. Though you could be right on that one since its hard to properly interpret what they say.

draxynnic.3719:

The army of a feudal kingdom is the Crown’s army, even if it’s mostly composed of the armies of fuedal lords.

Tenant-in-chief had obligation to provide some troops for the king, and that was the king’s army. All the others were part of armies of feudal lords, who were fealty to the King since he was the source and guarantee of their rights. This is why it was common for feudal lords to combat between themselves and sometimes even for a feudal lord to rise against the crown – because there was no centralized control over all the military forces
In GW (IIRC) it is clearly stated that the crown is top of seraph chain of command

Look again at the link you posted. The speaker you’re referring to is a lord – in other words, a noble – and he specifically says that his family owns the land, although they’ve turned over actual governance to the mayor. Which is pretty much exactly the sort of thing I’m saying.

Regarding central control of the military – theoretically speaking, that was the overall idea behind feudal structures as well. A noble rising against his or her monarch is treason, and possibly viewed even worse than disobeying orders or desertion is regarded in a modern military. Nobles fighting among themselves isn’t viewed as badly, but most monarchs probably disapproved of that unless the monarch was concerned that if the nobles weren’t fighting among themselves they might turn on him or her. Either way, legally speaking, the crown is still at the top of the chain of command in a feudal structure – the lords just had more freedom about what they could do when they weren’t under orders (which was largely necessary at the time as it was impossible for anyone to micromanage everything in a kingdom in the way a modern army does).

It’s certainly a looser structure than modern militaries… but then, so is the Seraph. While technically answering to the queen, more remotely located Seraph captains seem to be largely autonomous, and whose to say they aren’t being supported by, and in practice placing their loyalty to, the local noble(s) more than the queen?

Lostwingman.5034:

Kalavier.1097:

Why would the player, who can be a freaking STREET RAT become commander of the Pact, and slay an elder dragon?

Looking back, I lament that our characters don’t start off with a class mentor who “taught us the ropes” and kind of lends credence to how we went from ‘random citizen’ to ‘one person army’. Could’ve made the Personal Story feel much more unique to our character if there was something tied to our class. Kind of off topic but something I’ve been thinking recently.

Wouldn’t even have to be a major character, just some named npc who appears in the very first set off and on before going to home instance. Like how the humans have a priest in Salma district relating to which god they picked… even those that priest never appears in missions :P.

Agree though, in certain cases you could see it fitting. Nobles having schools for magic or martial abilities (more fitting for magic if you ask me), commoners getting some training from a Seraph perhaps (warrior/guardian?) while street rats are suited for thief work.

Obviously, such are simply steroetypes but I think the idea is cool. An elementalist who teaches a street rat some spells while he is in town… a Seraph guard sparring with a noble. etc :P I mean, for Norn, Charr, and Asura… even Sylvari it makes sense for them to be skilled.

Norn are Norn… you don’t get ahead if you aren’t good. Charr are military, so you obviously would get a lot of training. Asura have their collages, so similar to the Charr but less military focused. Sylvari get born with information/drives in their mind, so you’d have knowledge of elemental magic or fighting at ‘birth’, or the drive to be the bset possibly.

But humans? they don’t have that. Noble, Commoner, Street Rat, it’s all implied they lived within DR their entire lives (for PS aligned characters that is :P), and don’t really have the drive or influence to be the best warrior, mesmer, etc possible. Their first true combat was defending Shaemoor, and after that they don’t really get time to practice… Speaking purely from the PS though. None of my characters fit within it in my mind/backstories, so yeah. :P

kasoki.5180:

Other thing, if Kas’s family lost their titles and rights simply because they did something publically shameful, I don’t see how Kryta has any nobility at all. It is too much of interpretative category.

Her brother had a super heavy, public gambling problem. Her father ended up using all the Family money to get her brother out of trouble. It’s implied that is directly related to the reason her father was but into DEBTOR’s prison… aka he couldn’t pay his debts.

He was murdered while in prison, and the whole affair ended with the nobility being stripped.

It’s not hard to see why they’d lose the title if they fell into heavy debts that required their house and belongings to be sold to cover it…

Course, IIRC, some people theorize the thing was perhaps arranged by Caudcus. :P

There are indications that something shady was going on there. The brother wasn’t just in debt – he was getting pressure laid on him by criminal organisations, when we know Caudecus has ties with them. The Ministry also controls the courts who decided to put her father in prison (which means they could have kept him out if they’d wanted), and it was ultimately a Minister that benefited from their downfall. Considering that the Ministry at least has influence in the prison system, it wouldn’t surprise me if they ‘arranged’ for Lord Meade’s stabbing.