Why isn't Palawa Joko expanding his empire?

Why isn't Palawa Joko expanding his empire?

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Posted by: wouw.5837

wouw.5837

I remember reading that Palawa Joko was fighting Risen on his northern border, but now Zaithan is dead why don’t we hear more about him?

I though the OoW still had contact with Elona, so if Joko Ono was “invading” the Crystal Desert, shouldn’t they know about it?

inb4 operation Desert Storm.

EDIT 1: I ofc understand the Risen didn’t just drop dead, but what I assume is this situation:

Palawa Joko sends his troop North to DEFEND his border, after over a century of fighting Risen, ‘suddenly’ the pressure on the border fades away, Palawa Joko still has an immense Army stationed there (because were else is it needed?).

If I was an undead Lich, I would probably push my borders north, because the CD has:
1. Historical ties with Elona.
2. Powerfull Magical artifacts
3.The final resting place of my nemesis
4.A strategical defensive barrier between my capital and the rest of Tyria
5.Precious oil/lack of democracy

btw; could Joko take over the bodies of fallen risen?

Elona is Love, Elona is life.

(edited by wouw.5837)

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Posted by: EdwinLi.1284

EdwinLi.1284

I think it may be due to Kraky in the Crystal Desert.

As of now the only group of living people in the Crystal Desert are mostly Priory teams excavating around the place while keeping a eye on Kraky’s actions which isn’t much currently other than holding his ground in the Crystal Desert until he fully recovered.

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Posted by: Nilkemia.8507

Nilkemia.8507

Kralkatorrik (and possibly minions/champions as well) would impede his progress via the Crystal Desert, and even with Zhaitan dead now, it doesn’t mean the Risen over there are gone. The Deep Sea Dragon may or may not also interfere with aquatic travel, like it’s supposedly doing for Cantha.

And, to me at least, he doesn’t seem interested in anything beyond Elona. He did conquer it way before the Elder Dragons started to rise, right? If he really wanted to go over to Tyria, he’d have done it by now, or perhaps realizes that trying to take Tyria as well is too much to handle.

(edited by Nilkemia.8507)

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

The two times we have associated with Joko’s activities are approximately 1135 A.E. and 1275 A.E. . The first is when he started his invasion, but we don’t know how long his conquest took. The second is when most of the refugees who make up the Elonian population in DR fled, but that was well after Zhaitan’s rise.

That said, though, there was a 103 year gap between Joko building his palace and his first invasion, and a sixty year gap between his return and second invasion. Lengthy stretches of time don’t mean we’re safe from him.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Erukk.1408

Erukk.1408

I’d imagine he’s is possibly doing clean up, because Zhaitan might be dead, but the Risen are still around mindlessly attacking anything they come across.

Plus, Joko is an immortal lich. So unless the worst happens (devoured by ED or rebound and sealed), he literally has all the time in the world to conquer… well… the world. Unless, of course, he grows bored of the thought of world domination during his immortally and decides to take up something more interesting- competitive Polymock!

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Posted by: Ehecatl.9172

Ehecatl.9172

I’m not sure Palawa would be able to expand beyond Elona at this point. Even with the dragons gone he’d have to deal with factions that have technology far beyond what he likely has.

His undead armies wouldn’t fare very well against a fleet of airships bombarding his realm from a high altitude. Joko is essentially a weaker Zhaitan, and even Zhaitan wasn’t able to deal with the PACT’s airship fleet. And unlike Joko, Zhaitan had access to a massive army of giant dragon zombies for air dominance.

Granted it may be presumptuous to assume Elona hasn’t advanced as much as Tyria proper, but there are a few factors that make it a pretty reasonable assumption.

Unlike Tyria, Elona doesn’t have a cultural mixing pot of several races working together toward a common goal. Elona doesn’t have the Charr Legions and the Asura making huge leaps in technology and magic. Furthermore half of Elona are undead now, and a society that has all it’s needs met by the slave labor of undead that don’t have needs or wants likely isn’t going to feel the need to make large innovations.

If Joko has a desire to take Tyria he’d be best off waiting until the very last dragon is dead and Tyria has used up the vast majority of it’s resources and manpower in the process. Even then Tyria may be too powerful to take. We’ll have to see if the dragons keep letting us fight them in their own territory or if one or two will get the idea to take the fight to us personally.

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Posted by: PopeUrban.2578

PopeUrban.2578

It is entirely possible that all of his forces are far too busy fighting off Kralk to do anything else.

Right now, the crystal desert is basically the Orr of the crystal desert, and Joko may have a large number of zombies at his command, but consider what Kralk’s corruption means for his ability to create new soldiers. I’m fairly certain that Kralk can corrupt Joko’s troops. he seems to be able to brand just about anything, but I highly doubt Joko can raise a dead branded soldier. They break in to tiny pieces when defeated usually, right? Joko’s minion seem to require at least some semblance of once living structure to animate.

Then again, how much of some of the bigger onces was zombie and how much was statue is hard to tell.

This means that allowing Kralk to maneuver unchecked would be disastrous for Joko’s future plans, and given how much easier it is for Kralk to recruit more soldiers, and how much harder is it for Joko, I can’t imagine he’s doing anything but trying to hold his borders against the branded for now, assuming he wasn’t simply destroyed by Kralk already in the time between release and now.

In fact, a war with Joko may explain why Kralk hasn’t caused more problems for Tyria since he flew south.

I just had a terrifying thought.

Branded Junundu.

Guild Master – The Papacy [POPE] (Gate of Madness)/Road Scholar for the Durmand Priory
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ

(edited by PopeUrban.2578)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I remember reading that Palawa Joko was fighting Risen on his northern border, but now Zaithan is dead why don’t we hear more about him?

I though the OoW still had contact with Elona, so if Joko Ono was “invading” the Crystal Desert, shouldn’t they know about it?

  1. Most important thing to keep in mind is that the risen didn’t just drop dead after Zhaitan’s defeat. They continued to wander Orr and elsewhere, remaining as active as ever before. So Zhaitan’s defeat wouldn’t mean Elona’s northern border suddenly freed up – it just meant that the risen there would no longer get reinforcements.
  2. Secondly, even after killing all the risen, there’s the matter of establishing footholds and progressing in a weary way. Unless he got information by way of the Order of Whispers, he has no method to ascertain the situation in Tyria. For all Joko knows, after a hundred years of fighting dragon minions, all that’s left of Tyria is a big dragon-infested crater.
  3. Thirdly, you have to keep in mind just how far south the northern Elonian border is. Let me put it in a general sense to grasp: It’s not on the in-game map. So there’s quite some distance for Joko to spread, all the while establishing outposts and trade routes to these outposts. It’s not as simple as waypointing into Lion’s Arch from Elona by spending 10 silver a soldier and invading (given that waypoints are a recent establishment by asura and as such Elona has none). In Joko’s case, he has to actually establish footholds. And there’s a lot of desert between civilized Tyria and Elona’s northern border. Not to mention the potential of Kralkatorrik in the way.

But if you want the real reason: because ArenaNet has effectively put all storylines on hold after the initial game. The charr-human treaty has been at a standstill for 3 years; the human-centaur war at a standstill in Harathi for 3 years; Caudecus’ antics have been going on the same as ever for 3 years; the Flame Legion are no better or worse off than when they joined the Molten Alliance 2 years ago. Etc. etc.

The only plots furthered are those touched by the Living World, and Joko is not one of them.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Redfeather.6401

Redfeather.6401

Joko also has to deal with the fact that his undead army are exasperating to manage.

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Posted by: Boysenberry.1869

Boysenberry.1869

Question:

As a Lich, would Joko be able to exert his will over any remaining Risen he encountered given that those Risen are now without a Master? Joko is powerful enough to maintain a vast army of undead. Is he powerful enough to take control of opposing undead?

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Posted by: Diovid.9506

Diovid.9506

Question:

As a Lich, would Joko be able to exert his will over any remaining Risen he encountered given that those Risen are now without a Master? Joko is powerful enough to maintain a vast army of undead. Is he powerful enough to take control of opposing undead?

Risen are called undead and look like undead but are actually not undead, they are dragon minions. They are created by magic vastly different from necromancy. So my guess is no.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Why would the Risen navy still be a threat in the ocean when Zhaitan is dead? They got nobody to command them, nowhere to go back for reinforcement and they didn’t even have the coordination.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

If you played Arah explorable, you’d know that only one statement you said is truth: no more reinforcement. (Edit: And even that isn’t fully true)

The risen didn’t just drop dead when their dragon died – same goes for mordrem (why Caithe was worried about sylvari dying off when they killed Mordremoth is beyond me – unless she believes that Zhaitan isn’t dead). And the dragon champions retain enough intelligence (the same amount as before Zhaitan’s death) that allows them to organize the lesser risen and remain a threat.

Zhaitan’s death doesn’t mean the risen threat is gone – just that their days are numbered, that their spread has been stemmed down to a near halt (but as we see with Tequatl in Season 1, not fully halted).

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

If you played Arah explorable, you’d know that only one statement you said is truth: no more reinforcement. (Edit: And even that isn’t fully true)

The risen didn’t just drop dead when their dragon died – same goes for mordrem (why Caithe was worried about sylvari dying off when they killed Mordremoth is beyond me – unless she believes that Zhaitan isn’t dead). And the dragon champions retain enough intelligence (the same amount as before Zhaitan’s death) that allows them to organize the lesser risen and remain a threat.

Zhaitan’s death doesn’t mean the risen threat is gone – just that their days are numbered, that their spread has been stemmed down to a near halt (but as we see with Tequatl in Season 1, not fully halted).

Not this again!

Those Risen in Arah were obviously scattered, even the Inquest was able to dominate a lot of them. Those Risen obviously weren’t trying to aid anything out side of Arah. Also remember these Risen were inside of Arah, which means they stayed at the center of the dragon’s influence and it happened soon after Zhaitan’s death.

We are talking about the navy, which require a lot of coordination, reinforcement and command or they would become nothing but lost fishes in the giant ocean. With the dragon gone and Orr cleansed, those ships no longer have place to get reinforcement, no longer have the dragon to give them goal, no longer have the towers to give them coordination. How are they going to make a threat, especially blocking the ocean and against other navy?

(edited by Slowpokeking.8720)

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

What purpose does the Risen Navy have in regards to Joko?

“reinforcements” is the same everywhere, but being honest I don’t see how it’s instantly going to cripple them. Their navy is, after all, rather huge from a hundred years or so :P.

“Goal”, they’d be guided by dragon champions (We know some were navy ship commanders before and after being turned to Risen). Even then, they could revert to a “Kill anything that is NOT a risen ship.”, which would be bad for all living groups.

Coordination… I fail to see how the towers really gave the Risen ships out in the ocean and not near Orr that.

Here is my thought on the original subject. Maybe, just maybe, Joko simply wanted to rule Elona, and doesn’t give a rats behind about the rest of the world?

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Not this again!

Those Risen in Arah were obviously scattered, even the Inquest was able to dominate a lot of them. Those Risen obviously weren’t trying to aid anything out side of Arah. Also remember these Risen were inside of Arah, which means they stayed at the center of the dragon’s influence and it happened soon after Zhaitan’s death.

We are talking about the navy, which require a lot of coordination, reinforcement and command or they would become nothing but lost fishes in the giant ocean. With the dragon gone and Orr cleansed, those ships no longer have place to get reinforcement, no longer have the dragon to give them goal, no longer have the towers to give them coordination. How are they going to make a threat, especially blocking the ocean and against other navy?

  1. They weren’t scattered.
  2. The Inquest were able to dominate dragon minions from five different dragons before the death of any (see: CoE story).
  3. I never said the risen in Arah were trying to aid elsewhere. In fact, I said that is the lack of reinforcements is the one thing you got right.
  4. I was talking about the navy, which doesn’t require a lot of coordination – no more than what the dragon minions provide – and they aren’t in the ocean but in the Strait of Malchor – which isn’t a far distance from Orr. I was using the situation of the Arah risen as a basis for how all other risen are to act anywhere. It’s a simple sail back-and-forth in a straight line.
  5. The risen very obviously do not need Zhaitan to “give them a goal” given that all risen act like Zhaitan’s alive.

You seem to be under the impression that an Elder Dragon is required for dragon minions to have any amount of consistency or coordination. But this is downright false, as Zhaitan didn’t do much when alive. That task was given to the dragon champions, which are unchanged after Zhaitan’s death.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

  1. They weren’t scattered.
  2. The Inquest were able to dominate dragon minions from five different dragons before the death of any (see: CoE story).
  3. I never said the risen in Arah were trying to aid elsewhere. In fact, I said that is the lack of reinforcements is the one thing you got right.
  4. I was talking about the navy, which doesn’t require a lot of coordination – no more than what the dragon minions provide – and they aren’t in the ocean but in the Strait of Malchor – which isn’t a far distance from Orr. I was using the situation of the Arah risen as a basis for how all other risen are to act anywhere. It’s a simple sail back-and-forth in a straight line.
  5. The risen very obviously do not need Zhaitan to “give them a goal” given that all risen act like Zhaitan’s alive.

You seem to be under the impression that an Elder Dragon is required for dragon minions to have any amount of consistency or coordination. But this is downright false, as Zhaitan didn’t do much when alive. That task was given to the dragon champions, which are unchanged after Zhaitan’s death.

They were, did they provide any progress? Did they do anything? Other than the Wraith Lord have some goal to mess with the ritual, others were just there to attack whoever comes.
And they did it right here in Arah, pretty much occupied the Mursaat Path.
It required a lot of coordination especially in the middle of the ocean. If they are close to Orr, then they would join the fight with the Pact.
Yes, otherwise they would just stay there mindlessly, we see how the Risen navy operate in the novel.
No, but we are talking about a navy in the ocean, which obviously need the command and reinforcement to be active and useful.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

What purpose does the Risen Navy have in regards to Joko?

“reinforcements” is the same everywhere, but being honest I don’t see how it’s instantly going to cripple them. Their navy is, after all, rather huge from a hundred years or so :P.

“Goal”, they’d be guided by dragon champions (We know some were navy ship commanders before and after being turned to Risen). Even then, they could revert to a “Kill anything that is NOT a risen ship.”, which would be bad for all living groups.

Coordination… I fail to see how the towers really gave the Risen ships out in the ocean and not near Orr that.

Here is my thought on the original subject. Maybe, just maybe, Joko simply wanted to rule Elona, and doesn’t give a rats behind about the rest of the world?

It’s been a year or so since Zhaitan’s death. Remember a lot of the Risen Navy was destroyed in the war.

The Risen navy is not mindlessly “kill anything”, and how are they going to know where to kill in the middle of the giant ocean? If you want to make a blockade in the ocean, you need a lot of work rather than just some mindless ships which got no idea where to go.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I wouldn’t count the, what, five or so ships to be “a lot” for a navy that terrorized the Sea of Sorrows and patrolled the Strait of Malchor that kept the continent blockaded despite the Rata Sum’s docks being what would seemingly be outside the blockade (as it is beyond the Ring of Fire-to-Orr portion).

If the navy can permanently blockade Rata Sum’s docks, then it has to be bigger than the 10 or so ships we see throughout the storyline, or the 5 or so we destroy.

And they are NOT in the middle of an ocean. Just look at the map and you’ll see the that the Strait of Malchor is exactly what it’s called – a strait.

Nothing says that the risen were out in the ocean – nothing ever said that. They were before the ocean, preventing access to it. Even an organized navy cannot blockade within an ocean – too much open space.

But a strait and a coastline? That can be done even by sparse amounts of ships.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

I wouldn’t count the, what, five or so ships to be “a lot” for a navy that terrorized the Sea of Sorrows and patrolled the Strait of Malchor that kept the continent blockaded despite the Rata Sum’s docks being what would seemingly be outside the blockade (as it is beyond the Ring of Fire-to-Orr portion).

If the navy can permanently blockade Rata Sum’s docks, then it has to be bigger than the 10 or so ships we see throughout the storyline, or the 5 or so we destroy.

And they are NOT in the middle of an ocean. Just look at the map and you’ll see the that the Strait of Malchor is exactly what it’s called – a strait.

Nothing says that the risen were out in the ocean – nothing ever said that. They were before the ocean, preventing access to it. Even an organized navy cannot blockade within an ocean – too much open space.

But a strait and a coastline? That can be done even by sparse amounts of ships.

If there were only five ships and without Zhaitan, without the reinforcements, I don’t see how would it be able to block anything against the Canthan Empire or Joko’s navy and the Pact fleet on the otherside.

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Posted by: The Greyhawk.9107

The Greyhawk.9107

I wouldn’t count the, what, five or so ships to be “a lot” for a navy that terrorized the Sea of Sorrows and patrolled the Strait of Malchor that kept the continent blockaded despite the Rata Sum’s docks being what would seemingly be outside the blockade (as it is beyond the Ring of Fire-to-Orr portion).

If the navy can permanently blockade Rata Sum’s docks, then it has to be bigger than the 10 or so ships we see throughout the storyline, or the 5 or so we destroy.

And they are NOT in the middle of an ocean. Just look at the map and you’ll see the that the Strait of Malchor is exactly what it’s called – a strait.

Nothing says that the risen were out in the ocean – nothing ever said that. They were before the ocean, preventing access to it. Even an organized navy cannot blockade within an ocean – too much open space.

But a strait and a coastline? That can be done even by sparse amounts of ships.

If there were only five ships and without Zhaitan, without the reinforcements, I don’t see how would it be able to block anything against the Canthan Empire or Joko’s navy and the Pact fleet on the otherside.

Thats….not at all what he meant. Konig said that we only destroy five or so ships (which I may not necessarily agree with) not that the fleet only had five ships.

Hate is Fuel.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Thats….not at all what he meant. Konig said that we only destroy five or so ships (which I may not necessarily agree with) not that the fleet only had five ships.

What? 5 ships? Even in Seas of Sorrows and Edge of Destiny novel there were more than these dead ships got destroyed. In the story we destroyed at least 7-8 specific dead ships(the one carrying corpses, the three to sneak in, the one carrying magic items, the one tried to ambush us and the Warmonger) surely plus a lot more in the war since none of these were fought in a open naval battle.

Are you saying Zhaitan was that stupid, didn’t call the majority of its navy back when Orr was under attack?

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Posted by: The Greyhawk.9107

The Greyhawk.9107

Thats….not at all what he meant. Konig said that we only destroy five or so ships (which I may not necessarily agree with) not that the fleet only had five ships.

What? 5 ships? Even in Seas of Sorrows and Edge of Destiny novel there were more than these dead ships got destroyed. In the story we destroyed at least 7-8 specific dead ships(the one carrying corpses, the three to sneak in, the one carrying magic items, the one tried to ambush us and the Warmonger) surely plus a lot more in the war since none of these were fought in a open naval battle.

Are you saying Zhaitan was that stupid, didn’t call the majority of its navy back when Orr was under attack?

Wow, you guys are high strung tonight. Take a few breaths and re-read what it was I said and what was said by Konig.

Hate is Fuel.

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Posted by: Deleena.3406

Deleena.3406

I think Zhaitan would be too overconfident to call all its navy back (it prolly saw the Pact&PC as ants till the last minute. Witch would be to late to call back a ocean fleet at that point.

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Posted by: The Greyhawk.9107

The Greyhawk.9107

I think Zhaitan would be too overconfident to call all its navy back (it prolly saw the Pact&PC as ants till the last minute. Witch would be to late to call back a ocean fleet at that point.

Plus, the Pact made more use of airships than conventional naval vessels prior to hitting the mainland of Orr. And a navy can’t do much good once the battle goes deeper inland.

Hate is Fuel.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

I think Zhaitan would be too overconfident to call all its navy back (it prolly saw the Pact&PC as ants till the last minute. Witch would be to late to call back a ocean fleet at that point.

Zhaitan was already aware when we won at Fort Trinity. We also needed to use the Dead Ships to dock to Arah so it showed how heavy its defense was.

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Posted by: Deleena.3406

Deleena.3406

Fort Trinity is like literally being at Zhaithan front porch /already to late

also we prolly only got rid of the navy fleet around Orr. it would take time for a fleets to
sail from as far as Ring of fire and beyond (and why bother when you have hordes of dragon champs flying around?)

(also to add Trahearne did imply that zhaithan’s fleet has to physically sail from place to place /meaning no teleport HAX)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I wouldn’t count the, what, five or so ships to be “a lot” for a navy that terrorized the Sea of Sorrows and patrolled the Strait of Malchor that kept the continent blockaded despite the Rata Sum’s docks being what would seemingly be outside the blockade (as it is beyond the Ring of Fire-to-Orr portion).

If the navy can permanently blockade Rata Sum’s docks, then it has to be bigger than the 10 or so ships we see throughout the storyline, or the 5 or so we destroy.

And they are NOT in the middle of an ocean. Just look at the map and you’ll see the that the Strait of Malchor is exactly what it’s called – a strait.

Nothing says that the risen were out in the ocean – nothing ever said that. They were before the ocean, preventing access to it. Even an organized navy cannot blockade within an ocean – too much open space.

But a strait and a coastline? That can be done even by sparse amounts of ships.

If there were only five ships and without Zhaitan, without the reinforcements, I don’t see how would it be able to block anything against the Canthan Empire or Joko’s navy and the Pact fleet on the otherside.

Way to take my post in an obviously false direction.

I said we destroyed 5 or so ships (granted, it’s probably closer to 10 if I assume there are events I have not seen with bone ships), and that we saw 10 or so ships in total (and probably closer to 15 for same reason above).

The point I was trying to make is that we never see the whole of Zhaitan’s navy, nor the majority of it. And we definitely did not cripple Zhaitan’s navy.

Thats….not at all what he meant. Konig said that we only destroy five or so ships (which I may not necessarily agree with) not that the fleet only had five ships.

What? 5 ships? Even in Seas of Sorrows and Edge of Destiny novel there were more than these dead ships got destroyed. In the story we destroyed at least 7-8 specific dead ships(the one carrying corpses, the three to sneak in, the one carrying magic items, the one tried to ambush us and the Warmonger) surely plus a lot more in the war since none of these were fought in a open naval battle.

Are you saying Zhaitan was that stupid, didn’t call the majority of its navy back when Orr was under attack?

Uh. The Warmonger was the one that was carrying magic items. And I was largely referring to the Order of Whisper’s plan after Further into Orr in the personal story, which sinks only 3-4. That was the Pact’s “big crippling plan” for the risen navy. I certainly wasn’t referring to events 70 years prior to the PS (Sea of Sorrows).

And I’m saying that Zhaitan didn’t consider the Pact a threat. Given that he kept one of his strongest champions, the Giganticus Lupicus, in Arah the entire time I’d say that’s pretty accurate.

Zhaitan was already aware when we won at Fort Trinity. We also needed to use the Dead Ships to dock to Arah so it showed how heavy its defense was.

Aware != not overconfident

And we never docked to Arah. Cursed Shore was taken with a three-sided assault (each Orders’ plan) – from air, land, and sea. The Whispers’ plan only took out 3-5 ships, however, and was largely focused on bombarding the shoreline, not taking out other ships. Even that was largely irrelevant to naval battle, and pulling in ships from across the straits and seas would result in said ships being too late to assist – better for Zhaitan to keep a firm grip on his territory and use the thousands of minions on the mainland already to fight the Pact.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Mada.5319

Mada.5319

  1. Most important thing to keep in mind is that the risen didn’t just drop dead after Zhaitan’s defeat. They continued to wander Orr and elsewhere, remaining as active as ever before. So Zhaitan’s defeat wouldn’t mean Elona’s northern border suddenly freed up – it just meant that the risen there would no longer get reinforcements.

What actual evidence do you have for this?

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Posted by: Diovid.9506

Diovid.9506

  1. Most important thing to keep in mind is that the risen didn’t just drop dead after Zhaitan’s defeat. They continued to wander Orr and elsewhere, remaining as active as ever before. So Zhaitan’s defeat wouldn’t mean Elona’s northern border suddenly freed up – it just meant that the risen there would no longer get reinforcements.

What actual evidence do you have for this?

Probably the Tequatl Rising update and Arah explorable (both of which chronologically take place after Zhaitan’s death).

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

  1. Most important thing to keep in mind is that the risen didn’t just drop dead after Zhaitan’s defeat. They continued to wander Orr and elsewhere, remaining as active as ever before. So Zhaitan’s defeat wouldn’t mean Elona’s northern border suddenly freed up – it just meant that the risen there would no longer get reinforcements.

What actual evidence do you have for this?

Probably the Tequatl Rising update and Arah explorable (both of which chronologically take place after Zhaitan’s death).

Or, you know, the final cutscene/epilogue instance for the personal story where Trahearne explicitly(IIRC) states clearing out the Risen will be a long, and hard job.

The difference is without Zhaitan, they won’t be constantly getting new Risen forces.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Or at least they won’t be as fast.

But yeah, Arah explorable, Tequatl’s boost in power, and the final PS cinematic all show that the risen remain a threat – just one that’s finally seen as beatable.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Way to take my post in an obviously false direction.

I said we destroyed 5 or so ships (granted, it’s probably closer to 10 if I assume there are events I have not seen with bone ships), and that we saw 10 or so ships in total (and probably closer to 15 for same reason above).

The point I was trying to make is that we never see the whole of Zhaitan’s navy, nor the majority of it. And we definitely did not cripple Zhaitan’s navy.

Proof? Even in the story ,we have destroyed 10 or more. In the novels many of the dead ships were also destroyed.

Aware != not overconfident

And we never docked to Arah. Cursed Shore was taken with a three-sided assault (each Orders’ plan) – from air, land, and sea. The Whispers’ plan only took out 3-5 ships, however, and was largely focused on bombarding the shoreline, not taking out other ships. Even that was largely irrelevant to naval battle, and pulling in ships from across the straits and seas would result in said ships being too late to assist – better for Zhaitan to keep a firm grip on his territory and use the thousands of minions on the mainland already to fight the Pact.

What’s the proof of Zhaitan being overconfident?

We did dock on Orr and was able to break into Arah. The war was quite long since we started the counterattack, we don’t see Zhaitan call back some kind of massive fleet. If there was a massive fleet left, there is no way the Pact would leave the main focus.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Or, you know, the final cutscene/epilogue instance for the personal story where Trahearne explicitly(IIRC) states clearing out the Risen will be a long, and hard job.

The difference is without Zhaitan, they won’t be constantly getting new Risen forces.

Trahearne: The dragon’s undead minions that still infest Tyria will now gradually be exterminated.
Trahearne: One day soon, that plague will be but a memory.

Where?

Trahearne: I know you’re probably tired of hearing this—especially from me—but thank you, Commander. We’ve come a long way and have a long way to go, but for now, this is a well-deserved respite.

He was talking about the other dragons. Unless you are saying he was a moron, otherwise there is no way the Pact would switch it main focus to other dragons when there was a massive Risen fleet around.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Way to take my post in an obviously false direction.

I said we destroyed 5 or so ships (granted, it’s probably closer to 10 if I assume there are events I have not seen with bone ships), and that we saw 10 or so ships in total (and probably closer to 15 for same reason above).

The point I was trying to make is that we never see the whole of Zhaitan’s navy, nor the majority of it. And we definitely did not cripple Zhaitan’s navy.

Proof? Even in the story ,we have destroyed 10 or more. In the novels many of the dead ships were also destroyed.

You mean the novel which was set a good 100 (or was it 50) years BEFORE the events of personal story? 10 ships by itself isn’t a fleet, not even enough to blockade the Sea of Sorrow’s or the coastline.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

You mean the novel which was set a good 100 (or was it 50) years BEFORE the events of personal story? 10 ships by itself isn’t a fleet, not even enough to blockade the Sea of Sorrow’s or the coastline.

So? Those are still Zhaitan’s fleet, also in EoD they destroyed another one along with Morgus, Zhaitan’s champion captain.

The undead ships have magic upon them, they also have all the Risen creatures like the maw plus the dragons to aid them in battle. Again you need to give proof of the Risen still have a huge navy left after Zhaitan’s death. Because it would make the entire Pact stupid morons to leave them to go for another dragon.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

I don’t remember the events of the launch game or SoS clearly enough to give accurate counts, but I know that in EoD they only fought one ship- and they didn’t destroy it, it retreated in the end.

Actually, given the fact that all the bone ships started out as sunken ships, and that we only ever sink them in game, you have to wonder if any of them were actually ‘destroyed’ or if they could’ve been repaired, given time.

Now, as for good reasons why the Pact may not have cleared out the remaining fleet:
1.) Without Zhaitan around to drive them towards any particular spot, they’re likely to default to attacking living things on sight. Aside from the ones in the shipping lanes- shipping lanes charted out after Orr’s return to avoid the undead blockade as best they can- these ships pose no threat to the races that make up the Pact, and can afford to be neglected.
2.) The Pact has no particular power at sea. They have airships, but those can only be applied against surfaced dead ships, and they seem to only do that when docking or attacking. They have submarines, but those submarines are fragile and have no guns capable of aquatic operation- in fact, even in the main invasion of Orr, they had to be escorted by swimming troops to make it through intact. We very, very rarely see the Pact operations using actual ships, and those that are around, they seem to have borrowed from the Lionguard.
3.) There’s nothing of known value beyond the ships. The Ring of Fire islands were considered ludicrously perilous even before any of the Elder dragons were stirring. The coast south of Orr, from what we saw in GW1 anyway, is all uninhabited mountains down to Kourna, and it’s set in such a way that the tidal wave likely couldn’t have reshaped to topography the way it did in the Sea of Sorrows. The argument could be made that it’d clear the path to Cantha and Elona, but both of those, at last report, would be more likely enemies (which we have more than enough of) than allies, and the Pact seems aware there’s a sixth dragon out there that could further complicate matters.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

You mean the novel which was set a good 100 (or was it 50) years BEFORE the events of personal story? 10 ships by itself isn’t a fleet, not even enough to blockade the Sea of Sorrow’s or the coastline.

So? Those are still Zhaitan’s fleet, also in EoD they destroyed another one along with Morgus, Zhaitan’s champion captain.

The undead ships have magic upon them, they also have all the Risen creatures like the maw plus the dragons to aid them in battle. Again you need to give proof of the Risen still have a huge navy left after Zhaitan’s death. Because it would make the entire Pact stupid morons to leave them to go for another dragon.

A: Pact spent the time from Zhaitan’s death to HoT building up forces and clearing out Orr.
B: Again, that’s + one ship. Tell me, where is the proof that Zhaitan’s fleet is utterly destroyed? Because there IS NONE. Hell, don’t you think something like that being destroyed utterly would be a source of news for traders trying to reach toward Cantha?
C: As we have seen ingame, Risen dead ships typically travel underwater, and surface to attack. That makes them extremely hard to track, especially by airship.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

A: Pact spent the time from Zhaitan’s death to HoT building up forces and clearing out Orr.
B: Again, that’s + one ship. Tell me, where is the proof that Zhaitan’s fleet is utterly destroyed? Because there IS NONE. Hell, don’t you think something like that being destroyed utterly would be a source of news for traders trying to reach toward Cantha?
C: As we have seen ingame, Risen dead ships typically travel underwater, and surface to attack. That makes them extremely hard to track, especially by airship.

Orr, yes, not the ocean, nothing said that the Pact had a huge naval battle after Zhaitan’s fall. And we are talking about HoT.

Zhaitan itself is gone, we siege its homebase and cleaned Orr’s magic source. Countless generals and champions were killed. The Risen is no longer a threat and the Pact had switched their focus.
If Zhaitan had a huge navy somewhere, why didn’t it go back to Orr to help fight?
If the fleet was not destroyed, why didn’t it come back to reclaim Orr or attack other ports like it did in SoS/the game?
If the fleet was not destroyed, why did the Pact switch focus to other dragons when the fleet was keep harassing all the ships and blocking the way?
If the fleet was not destroyed, who is in charge with the dragon gone?

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Now, as for good reasons why the Pact may not have cleared out the remaining fleet:
1.) Without Zhaitan around to drive them towards any particular spot, they’re likely to default to attacking living things on sight. Aside from the ones in the shipping lanes- shipping lanes charted out after Orr’s return to avoid the undead blockade as best they can- these ships pose no threat to the races that make up the Pact, and can afford to be neglected.

If they just lose their way, then there is no way they could stay in the sea for long, nor would they be able to block the way from both sides’ naval forces.

2.) The Pact has no particular power at sea. They have airships, but those can only be applied against surfaced dead ships, and they seem to only do that when docking or attacking. They have submarines, but those submarines are fragile and have no guns capable of aquatic operation- in fact, even in the main invasion of Orr, they had to be escorted by swimming troops to make it through intact. We very, very rarely see the Pact operations using actual ships, and those that are around, they seem to have borrowed from the Lionguard.

They have power at sea, do the quests over the map and you will see how did they fight in the sea. What do you mean by power anyway? With Zhaitan gone, the Risen didn’t even have a leader to command them anymore.

3.) There’s nothing of known value beyond the ships. The Ring of Fire islands were considered ludicrously perilous even before any of the Elder dragons were stirring. The coast south of Orr, from what we saw in GW1 anyway, is all uninhabited mountains down to Kourna, and it’s set in such a way that the tidal wave likely couldn’t have reshaped to topography the way it did in the Sea of Sorrows. The argument could be made that it’d clear the path to Cantha and Elona, but both of those, at last report, would be more likely enemies (which we have more than enough of) than allies, and the Pact seems aware there’s a sixth dragon out there that could further complicate matters.

It’s the way to start trade, which is very valuable for Tyria.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Or, you know, the final cutscene/epilogue instance for the personal story where Trahearne explicitly(IIRC) states clearing out the Risen will be a long, and hard job.

The difference is without Zhaitan, they won’t be constantly getting new Risen forces.

Trahearne: The dragon’s undead minions that still infest Tyria will now gradually be exterminated.
Trahearne: One day soon, that plague will be but a memory.

Where?

Trahearne: I know you’re probably tired of hearing this—especially from me—but thank you, Commander. We’ve come a long way and have a long way to go, but for now, this is a well-deserved respite.

He was talking about the other dragons. Unless you are saying he was a moron, otherwise there is no way the Pact would switch it main focus to other dragons when there was a massive Risen fleet around.

Note the bold. He is talking about the other dragons in the second line, but that’s not the same as the first line where he is talking about the risen.

The risen remained after Zhaitan. The proof is in the line you quoted, Arah explorable, and Tequatl Rising (happens during Season 1, which is post-Personal Story).

I never said there was a “massive risen fleet” and nor does anyone say that the Pact just abandoned fighting the risen – just as they had forces fighting the icebrood in Frostgorge and forced fighting the Flame Legion in Fireheart while their main focus was on Orr and Zhaitan, they’d keep fighting the risen while their main focus is on another Elder Dragon.

If an Elder Dragon is threatening to destroy all civilization, would you really put all your effort into wiping out a limited threat that’s no longer threatening the wide people of Tyria?

No. Because that would be moronic.

Now, as for good reasons why the Pact may not have cleared out the remaining fleet:
1.) Without Zhaitan around to drive them towards any particular spot, they’re likely to default to attacking living things on sight. Aside from the ones in the shipping lanes- shipping lanes charted out after Orr’s return to avoid the undead blockade as best they can- these ships pose no threat to the races that make up the Pact, and can afford to be neglected.

If they just lose their way, then there is no way they could stay in the sea for long, nor would they be able to block the way from both sides’ naval forces.

He never said they lose their way.

2.) The Pact has no particular power at sea. They have airships, but those can only be applied against surfaced dead ships, and they seem to only do that when docking or attacking. They have submarines, but those submarines are fragile and have no guns capable of aquatic operation- in fact, even in the main invasion of Orr, they had to be escorted by swimming troops to make it through intact. We very, very rarely see the Pact operations using actual ships, and those that are around, they seem to have borrowed from the Lionguard.

They have power at sea, do the quests over the map and you will see how did they fight in the sea. What do you mean by power anyway? With Zhaitan gone, the Risen didn’t even have a leader to command them anymore.

They fought with swimming troops, as Aaron said.

3.) There’s nothing of known value beyond the ships. The Ring of Fire islands were considered ludicrously perilous even before any of the Elder dragons were stirring. The coast south of Orr, from what we saw in GW1 anyway, is all uninhabited mountains down to Kourna, and it’s set in such a way that the tidal wave likely couldn’t have reshaped to topography the way it did in the Sea of Sorrows. The argument could be made that it’d clear the path to Cantha and Elona, but both of those, at last report, would be more likely enemies (which we have more than enough of) than allies, and the Pact seems aware there’s a sixth dragon out there that could further complicate matters.

It’s the way to start trade, which is very valuable for Tyria.

Trade with who?

Cantha, an isolated xenophobic nation?

Elona, ruled by an undead tyrant?

Lands unknown, of unknown worth and wealth?

There’s no one worth trading with. Why put in extra effort to trade with them, especially when the effort required to open up the trading lines can be placed – without much loss – to fighting imminent threats to the entire world?

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Note the bold. He is talking about the other dragons in the second line, but that’s not the same as the first line where he is talking about the risen.

The risen remained after Zhaitan. The proof is in the line you quoted, Arah explorable, and Tequatl Rising (happens during Season 1, which is post-Personal Story).

It meant nothing other than the process won’t be quick, it never said it would be hard. The “long way” means other dragons

What? Why are you still bringing it up? The Arah explorable was nothing a bunch of remaining risen just wait there and even the Inquest could dominate a lot of them and occupy the path. Teq, on the other hand, gained extra strength. All it could prove is that some Risen left, but nothing showed there was a massive navy of Risen exists after Zhaitan’s death.

I never said there was a “massive risen fleet” and nor does anyone say that the Pact just abandoned fighting the risen – just as they had forces fighting the icebrood in Frostgorge and forced fighting the Flame Legion in Fireheart while their main focus was on Orr and Zhaitan, they’d keep fighting the risen while their main focus is on another Elder Dragon.

Where? Give me proof of the Pact is fighting the “fleet of Zhaitan”.

If an Elder Dragon is threatening to destroy all civilization, would you really put all your effort into wiping out a limited threat that’s no longer threatening the wide people of Tyria?

No. Because that would be moronic.

What do you mean no longer threatening? We are talking about the fleet of Risen, which blocked the way and attack ports, almost wiped out Lion’s Arch twice. They are a major reason that Zhaitan was the most aggressive dragon and must be killed first.

He never said they lose their way.

Then who will guide and command them? What is their goal?

They fought with swimming troops, as Aaron said.

No, they got ships.

Trade with who?

Cantha, an isolated xenophobic nation?

Why not? Who knows what happened after 100 years?

Elona, ruled by an undead tyrant?

Yes, its people could use some money.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

It meant nothing other than the process won’t be quick, it never said it would be hard.

Exactly.

My entire point – which you seemed to have forgotten – is that the risen don’t drop dead with Zhaitan’s death. Mada asked for proof. Kavalier gave it for me, and that’s what you responded to.

The “long way” means other dragons

I said exactly that.

What? Why are you still bringing it up? The Arah explorable was nothing a bunch of remaining risen just wait there and even the Inquest could dominate a lot of them and occupy the path. Teq, on the other hand, gained extra strength. All it could prove is that some Risen left, but nothing showed there was a massive navy of Risen exists after Zhaitan’s death.

Like I said, what the comment you commented on was responding to was this:

  1. Most important thing to keep in mind is that the risen didn’t just drop dead after Zhaitan’s defeat. They continued to wander Orr and elsewhere, remaining as active as ever before. So Zhaitan’s defeat wouldn’t mean Elona’s northern border suddenly freed up – it just meant that the risen there would no longer get reinforcements.

What actual evidence do you have for this?

This entire line of conversation has absolutely nothing to do with your theoretical fleet situation.

Where? Give me proof of the Pact is fighting the “fleet of Zhaitan”.

I never said they were.

In fact, I said they weren’t.

I said they were fighting risen in general, which the existence of Tequatl Rising says they were still at least at that point. To say they are or aren’t after is fully speculative – you cannot prove that they aren’t fighting risen still.

What do you mean no longer threatening? We are talking about the fleet of Risen, which blocked the way and attack ports, almost wiped out Lion’s Arch twice. They are a major reason that Zhaitan was the most aggressive dragon and must be killed first.

The risen didn’t attack ports except in massive assaults – of which there is only 4 such assaults in the history of a century. The risen numbers are dwindling so there’d be no more such assaults.

The trade ships of Tyria have had a full century to create courses that avoid the risen patrol. Those remaining risen ship will mindlessly continue patrolling – fulfilling their final orders, believing Zhaitan still lives just as those in Arah explorable do. That makes them not a threat.

Everything you said – almost wiped out LA twice (didn’t happen btw, but assaults on LA did happen) was before Zhaitan’s death. We are talking about after Zhaitan’s death, making them irrelevant.

Then who will guide and command them? What is their goal?

Who said they had a goal? They’d be fulfilling the last order from Zhaitan given to them – to patrol the strait of Malchor – and led by the dragon lieutenants, like always. Dragon minions are by default mindless, and dragon lieutenants and dragon champions command the armies, but even they act upon the orders of the Elder Dragon (and don’t ask for a source – every kitten event and book is a source on this, you’d be an idiot to not realize it if you paid attention to the story), and as we see in Arah explorable, despite Zhaitan’s death the risen act as if he’s alive.

But with no new orders, they’d continue fulfilling their last order given before Zhaitan’s death, whatever that might be.

For Tequatl, it is assaulting Sparkfly Fen. For the fleet, it’d be blockading ancient trade routes no longer used due to said blockade.

No, they got ships.

Where? In what event?

The only ships we see the Pact using are airships and submarines. And as pointed out, the submarines have no external guns – they had to be escorted with swimming troops.

The only naval ships the Pact ever used is in the Whispers’ storyline – those are not Pact ships, those are risen dead ships that were commandeered – and subsequently sunk in the very storyline. That’s not having ships – even before they were sunk.

[quote=5892623;Slowpokeking.8720:][quote=5892623;Slowpokeking.8720:][quote=5892623;Slowpokeking.8720:][quote=5885973;Mada.5319:][quote=5892623;Slowpokeking.8720:][quote=5892623;Slowpokeking.8720:][quote=5892623;Slowpokeking.8720:][quote=5892623;Slowpokeking.8720:][quote=5892623;Slowpokeking.8720:]

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Off the top of my head I can think of two events where the Pact use their own ships, total. Both are flying Lion’s Arch banners, leading me to believe they’re borrowed. In the first case the ship is exceedingly vulnerable to generic underwater risen, to the point that I’ve never actually seen the event succeed- it gets sunk every time I try. And even assuming success is canon, what saves it? The crew jumping overboard and fighting personally. In the second case the ship is used solely to make a delivery to a secured dock.

That’s it. That’s the Pact’s fleet of normal ships right there.

As for the reason we don’t want to go to Elona or Cantha, maybe it’d help you understand our reasons if we imagined what a Tyrian trade ship docking would look like, given what we last knew.

Elona: undead dictator. Willing to play nice, but only to the people who bow down before him. He may have any foreign ship assaulted at once, seeing outside influence as only a chance to stir up resistance to his rule, but I’d wager instead he’d simply seize and imprison the crew for questioning. He’d have the trade goods as tribute- after all, the well-being of his people doesn’t matter to him, so he doesn’t stand to benefit materially from trade. The only advantage to the situation is if he could be seen accepting homage from peoples in other lands. He might release the envoys, send them back, but I’d count on him sending with them a message that the only ships he’d allow to dock thereafter are those bearing lavish presents for him, and that their crews would be strictly monitored, their movements limited, to keep them from causing trouble. That’s a net loss for the Pact.

Now, Cantha- xenophobic, isolationist emperor who tolerates no political dissent. You can count on any non-humans arriving to be killed on sight, but let’s assume an all-human crew, for argument’s sake. We know that Cantha traded with Kryta under Usoku- but that was a Kryta at war with the charr, a Kryta supreme within its own borders and barely tolerant of the non-humans beyond them. This new multi-culturalism trend, epitomized by the orders and the Pact you’re suggesting would clear the way to Cantha? That’s a very, very dangerous sort of thinking to the emperor. Safer to close the ports, but, hey, maybe as long as they’re all humans and they keep their mouths shut, trade might be worth suffering them.

Great. So… now what? Is this trade the sort of military support that defeating the dragons would require? No. Is it providing vital supplies? Probably not. Cantha as we left it had a massive population it could barely feed; you’re not going to get much in the way of raw goods from that sort of country. Maybe they have luxury goods, silk and the like, maybe even jade. Maybe Kryta’s also stabilized enough that they can start exporting food, and so get money from that.

So where does that leave the Pact? One nation, Kryta, getting richer. That’s of no immediate benefit, and while it might result in more Krytan aid down the line, what happens when you find yourselves with a prosperous ally who owes their wealth and success to bigoted xenophobes? What’s that kind of reliance and influence going to do to the interconnected Tyrian culture the Pact needs to exist? What could the Pact possibly get in the short term that’s worth that risk? And that’s not the only risk. What I’ve laid out is a best-case scenario. See all the maybes up there? If a single one of those goes wrong, the Pact’s looking at all this effort going to waste, with the possibility of a very powerful new enemy thrown into the bargain.

Now consider that they’re considering that Bubbles is out there somewhere. Add in the chance of grabbing the attention of the last Elder Dragon that’s left them alone so far.

Honestly, does any of that still sound like a good idea to you?

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

My entire point – which you seemed to have forgotten – is that the risen don’t drop dead with Zhaitan’s death. Mada asked for proof. Kavalier gave it for me, and that’s what you responded to.

But there is no proof of Zhaitan still got a fleet to block the way.

The risen didn’t attack ports except in massive assaults – of which there is only 4 such assaults in the history of a century. The risen numbers are dwindling so there’d be no more such assaults.

The trade ships of Tyria have had a full century to create courses that avoid the risen patrol. Those remaining risen ship will mindlessly continue patrolling – fulfilling their final orders, believing Zhaitan still lives just as those in Arah explorable do. That makes them not a threat.

They did quite a few times, just they didn’t succeed each time and met setbacks in Lion Arch.

If they are mindlessly patrolling, how would they be able to block against Joko or Canthan’s ship plus the Tyrian ones?

Everything you said – almost wiped out LA twice (didn’t happen btw, but assaults on LA did happen) was before Zhaitan’s death. We are talking about after Zhaitan’s death, making them irrelevant.

Who said they had a goal? They’d be fulfilling the last order from Zhaitan given to them – to patrol the strait of Malchor – and led by the dragon lieutenants, like always. Dragon minions are by default mindless, and dragon lieutenants and dragon champions command the armies, but even they act upon the orders of the Elder Dragon (and don’t ask for a source – every kitten event and book is a source on this, you’d be an idiot to not realize it if you paid attention to the story), and as we see in Arah explorable, despite Zhaitan’s death the risen act as if he’s alive.

But with no new orders, they’d continue fulfilling their last order given before Zhaitan’s death, whatever that might be.

For Tequatl, it is assaulting Sparkfly Fen. For the fleet, it’d be blockading ancient trade routes no longer used due to said blockade.

It’s not blockade the trade routes, why would Zhaitan make such order? Its goal is to kill all the ships in the sea and destroy the livings, which. is not allowed by the livings.

And those Risens were just scattered, even the Inquest could kick their kitten in the city of Arah.

Exactly. Who knows.

Who would spend the time and effort to ensure a safe trade route with a continent that for all intents and purposes may no longer exist – and for all intents and purposes, a safe trade route may be impossible.

Because they once were Tyria’s friends and one tyrant’s rule could very possibly change after 200 years.

If Cantha is no longer exist, then the contient’s resources will be Tyrian people’s.

You never give a tyrant resources when said tyrant may want to invade your own nation.

Unless you’re an arms dealer and a criminal of the state. And the nations of Tyria are not.

Honestly, it’s beyond obvious you’re trolling. Stop. It’s silly and makes you out to be as smart as “the guy talked about here.”:

Who said we will give Joko resources? We gave it to his people, those who wanted to rebel against him, especially the Sunspears.

Actually till now you gave 0 proof that Zhaitan’s blockade still exists.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Elona: undead dictator. Willing to play nice, but only to the people who bow down before him. He may have any foreign ship assaulted at once, seeing outside influence as only a chance to stir up resistance to his rule, but I’d wager instead he’d simply seize and imprison the crew for questioning. He’d have the trade goods as tribute- after all, the well-being of his people doesn’t matter to him, so he doesn’t stand to benefit materially from trade. The only advantage to the situation is if he could be seen accepting homage from peoples in other lands. He might release the envoys, send them back, but I’d count on him sending with them a message that the only ships he’d allow to dock thereafter are those bearing lavish presents for him, and that their crews would be strictly monitored, their movements limited, to keep them from causing trouble. That’s a net loss for the Pact.

The Sunspear is also there.

Now, Cantha- xenophobic, isolationist emperor who tolerates no political dissent. You can count on any non-humans arriving to be killed on sight, but let’s assume an all-human crew, for argument’s sake. We know that Cantha traded with Kryta under Usoku- but that was a Kryta at war with the charr, a Kryta supreme within its own borders and barely tolerant of the non-humans beyond them. This new multi-culturalism trend, epitomized by the orders and the Pact you’re suggesting would clear the way to Cantha? That’s a very, very dangerous sort of thinking to the emperor. Safer to close the ports, but, hey, maybe as long as they’re all humans and they keep their mouths shut, trade might be worth suffering them.

This xenophobic, isolationist emperor had died at least 150 years ago.

Why isn't Palawa Joko expanding his empire?

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

But there is no proof of Zhaitan still got a fleet to block the way.

And there’s no proof he doesn’t.

We know that the risen remained unchanged after Zhaitan’s death. So unless they got killed – which we have no indication of – then the fleet would remain unchanged.

They did quite a few times, just they didn’t succeed each time and met setbacks in Lion Arch.

All before Zhaitan’s death.

If they are mindlessly patrolling, how would they be able to block against Joko or Canthan’s ship plus the Tyrian ones?

Because no one is sending ships to the blockade, because they’re not stupid.

Canthans and Joko don’t know the situation in Tyria at all. Last they knew is that any ship they sent – if any – never returned. For Cantha, the distance is too great to bother waging war and they’re isolationist so they don’t care. For Joko, he has risen on his northern border – trying to go around them might have been an attempt to figure out things happening, but when they don’t return, or they return with “the threat is there too” he – not being a moron – would cease to send ships.

Tyrians wouldn’t send ships because for a hundred years no ship they sent returned – except as risen. The risen remain a threat, so unless they’re willing to risk a ship of dozens of lives, potentially rising the number of remaining risen, they wouldn’t send a ship.

It’s not blockade the trade routes, why would Zhaitan make such order? Its goal is to kill all the ships in the sea and destroy the livings, which. is not allowed by the livings.

And those Risens were just scattered, even the Inquest could kick their kitten in the city of Arah.

I’m sorry, but a blockade is not a scattered force.

You need to learn your lore and learn your definitions of words.

And learn politics for that matter.

Because they once were Tyria’s friends and one tyrant’s rule could very possibly change after 200 years.

If Cantha is no longer exist, then the contient’s resources will be Tyrian people’s.

No one alive is Tyria’s friends.

If, if, if. Exactly. IF.

If Joko somehow turned good over 50 years (not 200), then yeah he could be a good ally. But that’s a kitten big if, and if that if doesn’t turn true – you just told a tyrant with an undead army who threatened entire nations in the past “hey, we’re ripe for the reaping”. You just initiated a war with the worse national leader in the world’s history – while having internal strifes still, while having strenuous negotiations with former enemies, while having wars with external threats still, and while having more Elder Dragons to deal with. Not a smart idea.

If Cantha is gone, it’s hundreds of miles to reeap their resoruce – however, we know that Cantha isn’t gone thanks to the Zephyrites. But we don’t know how Canthans would react to Tyrians – both humans and non-humans. If things are fine, sure, things are fine. If they’re not – you either lost your ships and possible initiated a different war.

To many ifs with too many bad possibilities. And a good leader – a good tactician – wouldn’t take those ifs.

Who said we will give Joko resources? We gave it to his people, those who wanted to rebel against him, especially the Sunspears.

Actually till now you gave 0 proof that Zhaitan’s blockade still exists.

The Sunspears are non-existent. Again, learn your lore. Before you continue this discussion read this link, because your arguments are debunked by that.

And you gave 0 proof that Zhaitan’s blockade doesn’t exist. I gave plenty of reason to believe it still exists. And you’ve only shown that you don’t even know what a blockade is – because a blockade is not a scattering of ships across a wide sea and ocean.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

Why isn't Palawa Joko expanding his empire?

in Lore

Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

And there’s no proof he doesn’t.

We know that the risen remained unchanged after Zhaitan’s death. So unless they got killed – which we have no indication of – then the fleet would remain unchanged.

Again if you want to prove he does, you have to give proof.

Because no one is sending ships to the blockade, because they’re not stupid.

But it’s not just blockade, the deadships are roaming over the sea to take down any ships. If there is a fleet, the best option is no doubt to take it down with Zhaitan gone to open the line.

Canthans and Joko don’t know the situation in Tyria at all. Last they knew is that any ship they sent – if any – never returned. For Cantha, the distance is too great to bother waging war and they’re isolationist so they don’t care. For Joko, he has risen on his northern border – trying to go around them might have been an attempt to figure out things happening, but when they don’t return, or they return with “the threat is there too” he – not being a moron – would cease to send ships.

Tyrians wouldn’t send ships because for a hundred years no ship they sent returned – except as risen. The risen remain a threat, so unless they’re willing to risk a ship of dozens of lives, potentially rising the number of remaining risen, they wouldn’t send a ship.

Because Zhaitan was there. Even before Zhaitan’s fall we saw EoD took out the dead ship champion. Now Zhaitan is gone, why shouldn’t they destroy it to open the way to other places?

I’m sorry, but a blockade is not a scattered force.

Where is the proof of the blockade forces then?

No one alive is Tyria’s friends.

If, if, if. Exactly. IF.

If Joko somehow turned good over 50 years (not 200), then yeah he could be a good ally. But that’s a kitten big if, and if that if doesn’t turn true – you just told a tyrant with an undead army who threatened entire nations in the past “hey, we’re ripe for the reaping”. You just initiated a war with the worse national leader in the world’s history – while having internal strifes still, while having strenuous negotiations with former enemies, while having wars with external threats still, and while having more Elder Dragons to deal with. Not a smart idea.

Which is why they need to go and see what’s happening, with Zhaitan gone. It’s not like the Tyrian didn’t want to go, it’s because of the Risen navy. The thing is Cantha is mostly friendly other than 1 tyrant’s rule.

The Sunspears are non-existent. Again, learn your lore. Before you continue this discussion read this link, because your arguments are debunked by that.

Those few Sunspears who survived passed on the teachings of the Order over the course of more than a hundred years, holding onto the tenets of a barely-remembered vision. They became wandering mystics, philosophers, and lone warriors in a world that chose to forget their presence.

They are there.

And you gave 0 proof that Zhaitan’s blockade doesn’t exist. I gave plenty of reason to believe it still exists. And you’ve only shown that you don’t even know what a blockade is – because a blockade is not a scattering of ships across a wide sea and ocean.

What? the Risen in Arah and Teq has 0 connection with the Risen navy.

Why isn't Palawa Joko expanding his empire?

in Lore

Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Again if you want to prove he does, you have to give proof.

I already proved risen didn’t drop dead.

I also already proved that his remaining forces retain their last orders.

1+1=2

Logical deduction indicates that the fleet did not simply disappate nor drop dead.

If the fleet doesn’t exist anymore, it’s because they got killed by other forces. But nothing indicates anyone pushed forces to fighting the fleet – all the Pact is ever said to be doing post-PS is clearing out Orr itself.

But it’s not just blockade, the deadships are roaming over the sea to take down any ships. If there is a fleet, the best option is no doubt to take it down with Zhaitan gone to open the line.

Right. Not just a blockade.

But a blockade exists. And the ships that do the blockade cannot blockade while roaming out in the open seas.

Because Zhaitan was there. Even before Zhaitan’s fall we saw EoD took out the dead ship champion. Now Zhaitan is gone, why shouldn’t they destroy it to open the way to other places?

Why should they?

You never answered that. You just demand the burden of proof to be on us, while providing no proof yourself.

Where is the proof of the blockade forces then?

Already provided. If you can’t read, that’s not my problem.

Which is why they need to go and see what’s happening, with Zhaitan gone. It’s not like the Tyrian didn’t want to go, it’s because of the Risen navy. The thing is Cantha is mostly friendly other than 1 tyrant’s rule.

Joko and the Canthans don’t know Zhaitan is gone.

Hell, Canthans wouldn’t even know Zhaitan existed.

And if you listen to ambient dialogue amongst the cities, you would know that they don’t want to bother – they have enough problems on their doorsteps to potentially invite more in.

And if you played Winds of Change, then you’d know that Cantha lost its friendliness long before Usoku took rule.

Those few Sunspears who survived passed on the teachings of the Order over the course of more than a hundred years, holding onto the tenets of a barely-remembered vision. They became wandering mystics, philosophers, and lone warriors in a world that chose to forget their presence.

They are there.

Hermits, wandering mystics, lone warriors. Not an organization any longer.

The Sunspears are gone. All you have are lone individuals that follow their teachings. Not an organization. And even then – those people might be gone now, given the last contact from Elona was 50 years ago.

What? the Risen in Arah and Teq has 0 connection with the Risen navy.

Your comprehension is beyond stupid if you can honestly argue that the fact that the risen don’t just drop dead has no connection to the risen navy.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

Why isn't Palawa Joko expanding his empire?

in Lore

Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

I also already proved that his remaining forces retain their last orders.

Where is the proof? The Wraith Lord got something new to do. Teq went to the deep to gain some new power.

If the fleet doesn’t exist anymore, it’s because they got killed by other forces. But nothing indicates anyone pushed forces to fighting the fleet – all the Pact is ever said to be doing post-PS is clearing out Orr itself.

Like in the war of Orr. Why would the Pact leave such a massive fleet there? It could come back to cause serious trouble.

But a blockade exists. And the ships that do the blockade cannot blockade while roaming out in the open seas.

When Zhaitan was there, yes, but after? Not likely.

Why should they?

You never answered that. You just demand the burden of proof to be on us, while providing no proof yourself.

Because

People want to go to the sea freely, they don’t want to be harassed or blocked by dead ships, isn’t it simple? It’s not like they didn’t want to go to the sea, it’s that they couldn’t.

Already provided. If you can’t read, that’s not my problem.

Where

Joko and the Canthans don’t know Zhaitan is gone.

We don’t know, Joko might have known it.

And if you listen to ambient dialogue amongst the cities, you would know that they don’t want to bother – they have enough problems on their doorsteps to potentially invite more in.

And if you played Winds of Change, then you’d know that Cantha lost its friendliness long before Usoku took rule.

The Ministry of Purity’s leader was taken down.

Hermits, wandering mystics, lone warriors. Not an organization any longer.

The Sunspears are gone. All you have are lone individuals that follow their teachings. Not an organization. And even then – those people might be gone now, given the last contact from Elona was 50 years ago.

It doesn’t matter, they are there, there are people who wanted to rebel against Joko, and they need support.