Why isn't Palawa Joko expanding his empire?
Actually we never found out what became of The Ministry of Purity (it didnt end with Reiko’s death) if you read the NPC chatter in that quest they actually may have gained a new Leader!
Yes, in the end they are reformed. But it was all 250 years ago. It’s not the Tyrian people didn’t want to take a look at Cantha, it’s Zhaitan’s navy that blocked it. Now the dragon is gone and Orr cleansed, why would they allow Zhaitan’s navy to continue their blockade and harassment in the ocean?
They wouldnt really had time /or a good reason with the timeline we have
Zhaitan’s death>clearing Arah>clearing Orr mainland>dealing with Teq>preparing to attack Kralkatorrik (prolly taking most of the pacts resources)and getting attacked by Mordy all in a 2 year+ span!
They wouldnt really had time /or a good reason with the timeline we have
Zhaitan’s death>clearing Arah>clearing Orr mainland>dealing with Teq>preparing to attack Kralkatorrik (prolly taking most of the pacts resources)and getting attacked by Mordy all in a 2 year+ span!
It’s not just the Pact, pretty much everyone wanted to get rid off the Risen Navy. Without the main base Orr and the powersource the dragon, it’s the perfect time to take the rest of them down.
All the other races had more important problems of there own that is very apparent ingame (as shown in LW S2)
not even counting all the problems LA was dealing with (The one city that would gain most from it( assuming cantha/elona are willing to trade/not hostile ) and all that was before mordy attacked!
All the other races had more important problems of there own that is very apparent ingame (as shown in LW S2)
not even counting all the problems LA was dealing with (The one city that would gain most from it( assuming cantha/elona are willing to trade/not hostile ) and all that was before mordy attacked!
Like what? Even before Zhaitan’s death, they had to spent a lot of effort to defend against Zhaitan’s navy. Zhaitan was the most dangerous dragon because of its navy was attacking everyone in the ocean and spread its influence all over, it didn’t just let most of its forces stay at one place like Jormag, Kralkatorrik or stay underground/undersea like DSD and Primordus. With the dragon gone, obviously one of the most important priority is to free the sea. Unlike in the game, a lot of the traveling and activity has to be done throughout the ships. It would be very stupid to leave a Risen Fleet in the ocean when their master is gone.
Also, if nobody, either from Cantha, Elona, or Tyria was going through, why would Zhaitan even put a fleet there? Money? Obviously it would only sent its force to someplace when it could bring the dragon more magic or minions.
When would they have time to go after the fleet?
Shortly after Zhaitan was slain Tequatl became even more powerful and started attacking. Southsun sprang up from the ocean along with the Karka that proceeded to wreck Lion’s Arch. The Karka had to be dealt with as a priority because they were attacking the city itself.
So we take Southsun. We have to spend time building up a trade port there, and by the time we’re feeling nice and secure we get attacked by multiple alliances of enemy factions that pose an even greater threat to the people of Tyria than before.
So we deal with that. Then it is revealed that a crazy Sylvari woman has an army of air pirates and robot monsters, and that she’s using it to attack the people of Tyria. Scarlet ends her war against Tyria by completely leveling Lion’s Arch, leaving it nothing but a smoldering ruin.
With Tyria’s main port city in ruin we naturally pull our resources to deal with that, but as that’s happening Modremoth begins to stir. He sends his champion to attack the Pale Tree and begins to aggressively assault various forts and outposts across Tyria with his vines.
So we push on the offensive. Dry Top and the Silverwastes open up, and we have to dedicate most of our extra manpower to keeping Modremoth contained. We go on the offensive to fight Modremoth and he wipes out the entire PACT airfleet single handed.
Keep in mind during Season 2 we’re sent around Tyria to gather support for our war against Modremoth and every other kingdom tells us the same thing. They don’t have forces to spare because they are under constant attack by their own personal enemies.
Tyria as a whole has been suffering a near constant series of terrible events, wars, and catastrophes over the course of three short years. All of this while every faction is in a constant state of war against foreign or domestic threats.
At what point should the PACT have taken a large chunk of their manpower and whatever ships they still have and sailed out to fight the Risen Fleet? What group of people would you let die so that you can open up trade with Cantha and Elona, neither of which is a guaranteed ally?
Because you absolutely would be taking forces away from one front to make this assault. You would be condemning hundreds, possibly thousands of people to death.
When would they have time to go after the fleet?
Shortly after Zhaitan was slain Tequatl became even more powerful and started attacking. Southsun sprang up from the ocean along with the Karka that proceeded to wreck Lion’s Arch. The Karka had to be dealt with as a priority because they were attacking the city itself.
So we take Southsun. We have to spend time building up a trade port there, and by the time we’re feeling nice and secure we get attacked by multiple alliances of enemy factions that pose an even greater threat to the people of Tyria than before.
The Pact sent some forces, nowhere said Lion’s Arch or other nations/factions sent the majority of their forces to fight Teq. Teq’s influence was just in the swamp mostly.
Karka also didn’t gain everyone’s attention.
So we deal with that. Then it is revealed that a crazy Sylvari woman has an army of air pirates and robot monsters, and that she’s using it to attack the people of Tyria. Scarlet ends her war against Tyria by completely leveling Lion’s Arch, leaving it nothing but a smoldering ruin.
With Tyria’s main port city in ruin we naturally pull our resources to deal with that, but as that’s happening Modremoth begins to stir. He sends his champion to attack the Pale Tree and begins to aggressively assault various forts and outposts across Tyria with his vines.
So we push on the offensive. Dry Top and the Silverwastes open up, and we have to dedicate most of our extra manpower to keeping Modremoth contained. We go on the offensive to fight Modremoth and he wipes out the entire PACT airfleet single handed.
Just the Pact, we don’t see the races and lionguards sent their main forces.
Keep in mind during Season 2 we’re sent around Tyria to gather support for our war against Modremoth and every other kingdom tells us the same thing. They don’t have forces to spare because they are under constant attack by their own personal enemies.
Tyria as a whole has been suffering a near constant series of terrible events, wars, and catastrophes over the course of three short years. All of this while every faction is in a constant state of war against foreign or domestic threats.
The humans’ main enemy is Zhaitan, all they got left is just some politics.
At what point should the PACT have taken a large chunk of their manpower and whatever ships they still have and sailed out to fight the Risen Fleet? What group of people would you let die so that you can open up trade with Cantha and Elona, neither of which is a guaranteed ally?
In the battle of Orr, we still see Pact forces help fighting Icebrood and the Branded with the dragons alive.
Because you absolutely would be taking forces away from one front to make this assault. You would be condemning hundreds, possibly thousands of people to death.
But the Pact did, they are still in Ascalon and FG to help fight Jormag and Kralkatorrik. Why would they and everyone simply let the Risen fleet go free to attack people?
Remember the Risen Fleet are the most aggressive enemies, even if you ignore them, they will chase you up when you get to the sea. And it’s necessary for most of the races because in the story, we don’t always use the waypoints easily to get around.
It’s necessary for the asura and Lion’s Arch, maybe humans. The norn, charr, and Ebonhawke are landlocked, the sylvari have shown no inclination for sea travel, and we don’t know whether the humans have any ports left besides Garenhoff, which is only a small port that can reach Lion’s Arch without going anywhere near the southern seas.
As for the Pact- I repeat that they have demonstrated just about no strength at sea. But let’s put that aside for now, because you’re insisting things are otherwise. The question to discuss seems to be whether the risen fleet, without Zhaitan sending them fresh orders, is aggressive enough by itself to necessitate Pact intervention.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)
The Pact sent some forces, nowhere said Lion’s Arch or other nations/factions sent the majority of their forces to fight Teq. Teq’s influence was just in the swamp mostly.
Karka also didn’t gain everyone’s attention.
The PACT is the same force we’re assuming would be sent to fight the Risen Fleet. So if they are distracted elsewhere by a much larger and more powerful threat they aren’t also casually wiping out a massive undead fleet that can travel underwater.
And the Karka DID attack Lion’s Arch and cause a lot of damage. Lion’s Arch is the primary trade port of central Tyria that also happens to have the largest sea faring fleet.
Just the Pact, we don’t see the races and lionguards sent their main forces.
Again, the PACT is the military power that you’ve been stating would go after the Risen Fleet. If they are busy elsewhere then they cannot do that. The other nations have their own problems.
The humans’ main enemy is Zhaitan, all they got left is just some politics.
Oh, you mean that human kingdom that is separated from the sea the Risen Fleet is in by the entire continent of Tyria? Krya is a heavily landlocked nation that’s only access to the ocean is a river system that leads north. There is no reason to suspect Kryta itself has a fleet large enough to contend with the Risen, nor would it be an easy venture for them to travel such a huge distance to fight the Risen Fleet, nor would they be in a position to benefit much from trading.
They are also still recovering from a massive invasion from the centaur who pushed all the way to Divinity’s Reach. It’s only been three years, that isn’t enough time to fully recover the population lost. Especially when they are still sending troops to aid the PACT.
In the battle of Orr, we still see Pact forces help fighting Icebrood and the Branded with the dragons alive.
Because the Icebrood are aggressively expanding south and the Branded are a constant threat to the people in the area.
The Risen Fleet are out at sea guarding trade routes nobody uses anymore and have no will directing them to return to the mainland and attack.
But the Pact did, they are still in Ascalon and FG to help fight Jormag and Kralkatorrik. Why would they and everyone simply let the Risen fleet go free to attack people?
Exactly. They are so spread out between fighting all the Elder Dragons. Which front do you want to give to the dragons in order to relocate the PACT forces to fight that fleet? Do you want to give land to Jormag or Kraalkatorrik?
You HAVE to choose. This isn’t a video game (Okay it is but not by lore standards). You don’t just spawn new troops when you want to attack another target. It takes two decades to grow a new person to replace the person you lost in battle. There is a finite number of soldiers under the PACT control. They can’t be everywhere and meet every threat, so they pick and choose their battles based on what is the most dangerous to the people of Tyria.
Remember the Risen Fleet are the most aggressive enemies, even if you ignore them, they will chase you up when you get to the sea. And it’s necessary for most of the races because in the story, we don’t always use the waypoints easily to get around.
If the Risen Fleet were more aggressive than the Icebrood or Branded they’d actually be doing something. We’ve not heard from them since Zhaitan died. Thus they aren’t doing anything worth hearing about.
Tyria pretty much doesn’t use naval fleets anymore. We use airships and portals for the vast majority of our trade. The path to Elona and Cantha are only valuable if you want to go to those places, but for travel in continental Tyria there are better options.
The PACT is the same force we’re assuming would be sent to fight the Risen Fleet. So if they are distracted elsewhere by a much larger and more powerful threat they aren’t also casually wiping out a massive undead fleet that can travel underwater.
What do you mean much larger? In the game Teq is tough, but in the story it wasn’t that much of a threat.
And the Karka DID attack Lion’s Arch and cause a lot of damage. Lion’s Arch is the primary trade port of central Tyria that also happens to have the largest sea faring fleet.
So did the Risen for quite a few times.
Again, the PACT is the military power that you’ve been stating would go after the Risen Fleet. If they are busy elsewhere then they cannot do that. The other nations have their own problems.
I’m not saying just the Pact, pretty much everyone wants to get rid of the Risen Fleet.
Oh, you mean that human kingdom that is separated from the sea the Risen Fleet is in by the entire continent of Tyria? Krya is a heavily landlocked nation that’s only access to the ocean is a river system that leads north. There is no reason to suspect Kryta itself has a fleet large enough to contend with the Risen, nor would it be an easy venture for them to travel such a huge distance to fight the Risen Fleet, nor would they be in a position to benefit much from trading.
They are also still recovering from a massive invasion from the centaur who pushed all the way to Divinity’s Reach. It’s only been three years, that isn’t enough time to fully recover the population lost. Especially when they are still sending troops to aid the PACT.
Kryta has a major fleet even before 100 years ago, they once tried to block LA and force it to obey the king. Read SoS.
Because the Icebrood are aggressively expanding south and the Branded are a constant threat to the people in the area.
The Risen Fleet are out at sea guarding trade routes nobody uses anymore and have no will directing them to return to the mainland and attack.
What are you talking about? The Risen Fleet and Zhaitan was that stupid?! They spent their forces for decades wandering at places which nobody comes?
Exactly. They are so spread out between fighting all the Elder Dragons. Which front do you want to give to the dragons in order to relocate the PACT forces to fight that fleet? Do you want to give land to Jormag or Kraalkatorrik?
You HAVE to choose. This isn’t a video game (Okay it is but not by lore standards). You don’t just spawn new troops when you want to attack another target. It takes two decades to grow a new person to replace the person you lost in battle. There is a finite number of soldiers under the PACT control. They can’t be everywhere and meet every threat, so they pick and choose their battles based on what is the most dangerous to the people of Tyria.
Of course we chose to fight the Risen, they were the most aggressive dragon minions, which is why we chose to fight Zhaitan first.
If the Risen Fleet were more aggressive than the Icebrood or Branded they’d actually be doing something. We’ve not heard from them since Zhaitan died. Thus they aren’t doing anything worth hearing about.
Tyria pretty much doesn’t use naval fleets anymore. We use airships and portals for the vast majority of our trade. The path to Elona and Cantha are only valuable if you want to go to those places, but for travel in continental Tyria there are better options.
They did, did you even play the story?
No, read EoD and see what did Zhaitan’s champions do to the ships.
It’s necessary for the asura and Lion’s Arch, maybe humans. The norn, charr, and Ebonhawke are landlocked, the sylvari have shown no inclination for sea travel, and we don’t know whether the humans have any ports left besides Garenhoff, which is only a small port that can reach Lion’s Arch without going anywhere near the southern seas.
As for the Pact- I repeat that they have demonstrated just about no strength at sea. But let’s put that aside for now, because you’re insisting things are otherwise. The question to discuss seems to be whether the risen fleet, without Zhaitan sending them fresh orders, is aggressive enough by itself to necessitate Pact intervention.
They are landlocked but they still need resources through the sea trade, a lot of the ship captains are norns.
Wait are you saying that Zhaitan left its main naval fleet at places which nobody came and would bring itself no benefit, even when Orr was under attack?
What do you mean much larger? In the game Teq is tough, but in the story it wasn’t that much of a threat.
An empowered dragon champion that is attacking the mainland is a bigger threat than a fleet out at sea not bothering anyone.
So did the Risen for quite a few times.
The Risen aren’t a major threat anymore. Zhaitan was dead by that point, and his fleet is nowhere to be seen.
I’m not saying just the Pact, pretty much everyone wants to get rid of the Risen Fleet.
Who? Point out to me the NPC who says he feels the Risen Fleet, now without a commander, needs to be made a priority over the minions of dragons that are still alive.
Kryta has a major fleet even before 100 years ago, they once tried to block LA and force it to obey the king. Read SoS.
Before 100 years ago is a long time ago. Do they still maintain a massive fleet? And even if they do they still need to take their ships quite a long way before they can challenge Zhaitan’s fleet. And of course those fleets need to be manned with troops. Kryta can’t spare soldiers so easily.
What are you talking about? The Risen Fleet and Zhaitan was that stupid?! They spent their forces for decades wandering at places which nobody comes?
No, Zhaitan was preventing us from interacting with the other nations of the world. At the time it was a good strategy. But now Zhaitan is dead and his fleet isn’t getting any new orders. No one has used those waterways in 100 years because of Zhaitan’s blockade. So long as no one tries to sail through there the fleet is effectively doing nothing.
Of course we chose to fight the Risen, they were the most aggressive dragon minions, which is why we chose to fight Zhaitan first.
So you would allow Jormag to progress south, potentially destroying the Norn completely and finding a position between the Charr and the rest of Tyria, so that you can destroy those ships and MAYBE open trade between two nations that, historically speaking, aren’t very friendly at all?
They did, did you even play the story?
No, read EoD and see what did Zhaitan’s champions do to the ships.
Yes, they DID. Past tense. As in it happened in the past. Now tell me what the Risen Fleet has done within the last year that makes them a bigger threat than the still living dragons that are pushing down on us from all angles?
(edited by Ehecatl.9172)
An empowered dragon champion that is attacking the mainland is a bigger threat than a fleet out at sea not bothering anyone.
Not bothering? The Risen fleet were harassing everyone in the sea, launched many attacks against the livings on the land.
The Risen aren’t a major threat anymore. Zhaitan was dead by that point, and his fleet is nowhere to be seen.
Zhaitan itself never did much directly, its threat mostly came from its navy.
Who? Point out to me the NPC who says he feels the Risen Fleet, now without a commander, needs to be made a priority over the minions of dragons that are still alive.
So that’s my point, there is no such thing as Risen fleet left after Zhaitan’s death, either it was cleared up shortly or it was destroyed in the war against it.
Before 100 years ago is a long time ago. Do they still maintain a massive fleet? And even if they do they still need to take their ships quite a long way before they can challenge Zhaitan’s fleet. And of course those fleets need to be manned with troops. Kryta can’t spare soldiers so easily.
Yes, since they would want to hold LA, why wouldn’t they try to clear up the mess?
No, Zhaitan was preventing us from interacting with the other nations of the world. At the time it was a good strategy. But now Zhaitan is dead and his fleet isn’t getting any new orders. No one has used those waterways in 100 years because of Zhaitan’s blockade. So long as no one tries to sail through there the fleet is effectively doing nothing.
So Zhaitan just let the majority of its fleet stay at places which nobody came for 100 years rather than use it to attack others to bring it more minions or magic or aid itself in the war? Why would a dragon want to spend so much effort to prevent aid from other nations?
So you would allow Jormag to progress south, potentially destroying the Norn completely and finding a position between the Charr and the rest of Tyria, so that you can destroy those ships and MAYBE open trade between two nations that, historically speaking, aren’t very friendly at all?
We went for Zhaitan first, period.
Yes, they DID. Past tense. As in it happened in the past. Now tell me what the Risen Fleet has done within the last year that makes them a bigger threat than the still living dragons that are pushing down on us from all angles?
So that’s my point, there is no such thing as Risen fleet anymore, it doesn’t exist anymore.
Wait are you saying that Zhaitan left its main naval fleet at places which nobody came and would bring itself no benefit, even when Orr was under attack?
Considering that that is exactly what Zhaitan did with all of the Orrian risen before, and during the Pact invasion?
You’re missing one very, very important aspect of Elder Dragon behavior- how they treat territory.
Consider, for the moment, the single example of the Quinatl Deadgrounds. Now, this once village is never threatened. There’re no events, no PS steps, that ever show an attempt to take it back, or even visit. As you would put it, it is not “someplace when it could bring the dragon more magic or minions”, a place “which nobody came and would bring itself no benefit.” It is well behind the risen lines in the area, secure, but is close enough to multiple battlefronts in the region that it’s garrison could easily move up. The structures are all a ruin, with nothing left that could pass as a fortification, it’s set back from the sea by rocky cliffs, and at any rate it doesn’t have any weaponry that could reach that far. In short, the place holds not the least bit of strategic or tactical significance.
And yet, the risen are there. Hylek, in fact, in about the right numbers to be the original inhabitants. There is no question they are not helping the dragon’s standing where they are, there is no doubt that they’d be more effective in that regard just a short distance north… and yet, they are here. Why?
Think of Zhaitan as a pragmatist, a general looking to wage a war, and there is no answer. The predictions provided by that theory do not match the reality, and so it must be discarded. What we actually see here is an interest in territory and in keeping minions throughout that territory, and even in having them go in in a mockery of their lives before.
Now expand beyond this example. Consider the Orrian villagers who go on plowing the land, growing nothing, , instead of moving to block the Pact supply caravans passing by their fields. Consider the various high priests in the Arah explorable, who failed to emerge to help the High Wizard stop the Pact from striking at their master. Consider the undead of Murkvale who shamble beneath the bridge, sending only small numbers against the Pact bases, preferring to keerp their horde camped in their worthless tract of swamp.
So, yes. If the risen fleet sat out the fighting, they’d be following a pattern that’s very well attested to.
Oh, and on trade- are you saying the charr are so dependent on asuran goods that they need to have them shipped through LA? If the charr are that interested, why don’t the asura simply make them pay extra to use the gates?
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
Another thing about the Risen Navy…
Since it’s mostly below water before it strikes, the FEAR of it would halt most expiditions out toward Cantha/Elona/other areas of the world.
Because no ship captain is 100% sure that ALL of the dead ships/bones ships/Risen ships are gone, or that a battlegroup will appear around their ship and sink them.
Considering that that is exactly what Zhaitan did with all of the Orrian risen before, and during the Pact invasion?
You’re missing one very, very important aspect of Elder Dragon behavior- how they treat territory.
Consider, for the moment, the single example of the Quinatl Deadgrounds. Now, this once village is never threatened. There’re no events, no PS steps, that ever show an attempt to take it back, or even visit. As you would put it, it is not “someplace when it could bring the dragon more magic or minions”, a place “which nobody came and would bring itself no benefit.” It is well behind the risen lines in the area, secure, but is close enough to multiple battlefronts in the region that it’s garrison could easily move up. The structures are all a ruin, with nothing left that could pass as a fortification, it’s set back from the sea by rocky cliffs, and at any rate it doesn’t have any weaponry that could reach that far. In short, the place holds not the least bit of strategic or tactical significance.
Zhaitan
And yet, the risen are there. Hylek, in fact, in about the right numbers to be the original inhabitants. There is no question they are not helping the dragon’s standing where they are, there is no doubt that they’d be more effective in that regard just a short distance north… and yet, they are here. Why?
Think of Zhaitan as a pragmatist, a general looking to wage a war, and there is no answer. The predictions provided by that theory do not match the reality, and so it must be discarded. What we actually see here is an interest in territory and in keeping minions throughout that territory, and even in having them go in in a mockery of their lives before.
Now expand beyond this example. Consider the Orrian villagers who go on plowing the land, growing nothing, , instead of moving to block the Pact supply caravans passing by their fields. Consider the various high priests in the Arah explorable, who failed to emerge to help the High Wizard stop the Pact from striking at their master. Consider the undead of Murkvale who shamble beneath the bridge, sending only small numbers against the Pact bases, preferring to keerp their horde camped in their worthless tract of swamp.
So, yes. If the risen fleet sat out the fighting, they’d be following a pattern that’s very well attested to.
Oh, and on trade- are you saying the charr are so dependent on asuran goods that they need to have them shipped through LA? If the charr are that interested, why don’t the asura simply make them pay extra to use the gates?
Really?
What we saw is Zhaitan sent its navy to harass everyone all over the sea, launched attacks against ports, spread its influence over the coast. Most of the known Risen ships are very aggressive.
As for the Hylek, its Risen was preparing for attack in the personal story. Another Hylek village had to move out.
(edited by Slowpokeking.8720)
What we saw with the risen navy was a ten-year gap before if attacked anywhere. What we saw was just ten attacks on Lion’s Arch in the city’s first twenty-six years. What we saw was Claw Island easily overrun because the Lionguard commander could not believe Zhaitan would send a fleet large enough to overrun them. All of that points to the dead ships attacking only sporadically, which naturally means they spend most of their time not attacking.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
What we saw with the risen navy was a ten-year gap before if attacked anywhere. What we saw was just ten attacks on Lion’s Arch in the city’s first twenty-six years. What we saw was Claw Island easily overrun because the Lionguard commander could not believe Zhaitan would send a fleet large enough to overrun them. All of that points to the dead ships attacking only sporadically, which naturally means they spend most of their time not attacking.
They were attacking the ships with Morgus Lethe’s forces before EoD killed him. At the same time they were spreading influence in the Maguuma Jungle. The Risen are very active overall.
So does the consortium/Black lion trading company own any air ships?
It would surely be of their interests to open trade contacts with Elona or Cantha.
It would be great to see the rivalry between the consortium and the BLTC heat up when they are both fighting to establish trade connections with the far lands first.
And what do those filthy capitalists care about LA, don’t they just want to turn a profit?(especially the consortium has shown no regard for the safety of others over their profits for example southsun) so I don’t see why they couldn’t use manpower to establish those connections.
It might give some interesting stories, the consortium making contact with Joko and trade their technologies for some exotic wares.
I wouldn’t mind just having an Emissary of Palawa Joko or an Emissary of the Dragon Empire set up shop in LA and give us some tidbits of news about their homelands.
Right now I don’t expect us to go there ever, but just hearing about those nations just makes a lot of sense.
Even though the Dragon Empire is so xenophobic it has already shown interest in trading (the Zepherytes) and I don’t see why Joko wouldn’t want to trade if it’s beneficial to him.
Elona is Love, Elona is life.
The Pact sent some forces, nowhere said Lion’s Arch or other nations/factions sent the majority of their forces to fight Teq. Teq’s influence was just in the swamp mostly.
Uhh…
Yeah it did.
Rytlock sent Rox, Vigil sent the warmaster who’s still there. Not LA, no, but the Vigil took over the area, and said warmaster talked about Tequatl’s growth potentially being a response to the ongoing invasion of Orr.
Just the Pact, we don’t see the races and lionguards sent their main forces.
They do after the World Summit. Just go to Camp Resolve and watch the entrance. Or walk around. You see Seraph, Peacemakers, Blood Legion, Iron Legion, sylvari wardens and Valiants, as well as norn hunters all present.
The humans’ main enemy is Zhaitan, all they got left is just some politics.
The humans’ main enemy has been centaurs. Their dealings with dragon minions only happen once every few decades – when Port Stalwart and Port Noble got assaulted, when their fleet got assaulted, and Kellach. Humanity never really had that big of a role in fighting Zhaitan – Lion’s Arch did.
In the battle of Orr, we still see Pact forces help fighting Icebrood and the Branded with the dragons alive.
We actually don’t see them fighting branded – that’s just the Vigil, but canonically before the Pact’s establishment.
Point being, however, that those are all active fronts. The remnants of the risen fleet aren’t an active front.
But the Pact did, they are still in Ascalon and FG to help fight Jormag and Kralkatorrik. Why would they and everyone simply let the Risen fleet go free to attack people?
Remember the Risen Fleet are the most aggressive enemies, even if you ignore them, they will chase you up when you get to the sea. And it’s necessary for most of the races because in the story, we don’t always use the waypoints easily to get around.
Actually, the fleet is not aggressive unless you go into their territory (like any other dragon minion army) or they’re led by a powerful dragon champion and launching an assault (such as Captain Whiting or Blightghast the Plaguebringer).
Morgus Lethe was lured out by taking a ship into their territory. Same with all bone ships – for over two decades the sea trade existed after Zhaitan rose without even thinking the dead ships were real because the risen fleet is not aggressive unless provoked.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Really?
What we saw is Zhaitan sent its navy to harass everyone all over the sea, launched attacks against ports, spread its influence over the coast. Most of the known Risen ships are very aggressive.
You really need to re-read Edge of Destiny and Sea of Sorrows.
The risen fleet did not go out to assault unless led by a dragon champion for a massive assault – they did not harass ships unless the ships came to them.
They’re aggressive… when approached or led by a powerful dragon champion that’s establishing an assault. Like most risen in Orr, in fact.
They were attacking the ships with Morgus Lethe’s forces before EoD killed him. At the same time they were spreading influence in the Maguuma Jungle. The Risen are very active overall.
Morgus Lethe is explicitly stated to only assault ships that approach his lair. Morgus Lethe made its lair in modern trade routes because it knew the modern trade routes. But he and the crew he lead remained in place, waiting for victims to go to him.
The risen’s activity, except in rare, once-in-a-few-decades cases like being led by Blightghast or Whiting, is purely reactive. They only assault those they see and hear – those that go near them, knowingly or not.
Much like the Dragonspawn did. Much like branded mostly do.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Which in the sense of trade ships or ships hunting down the Risen…
Makes it very hard to track. You don’t know if you’ll cross over a dead ship’s waiting spot (or it’s travel path). Trade-wise, I doubt many would want to take that risk right now.
Why would the Risen navy still be a threat in the ocean when Zhaitan is dead? They got nobody to command them, nowhere to go back for reinforcement and they didn’t even have the coordination.
Champion Risen demonstrate a fair amount of autonomy. Granted this autonomy was limited in regards that it was autonomy in how they serve Zhaitan (so they couldn’t really go against Zhaitan but they could come up with unique tactics and plots in order to server Zhaitan).
Now if the other Risen remained then likely champions also remain and we know that champions control the run of the mill minions. So possibility A) they’re still serving the will of Zhaitan, so if Zhaitan told them to guard the ocean around Orr they’re still doing that B ) they’re now independent and have their own machinations. In theory Tequatl was becoming the next Zhaitan, possibly another Champion might be having the same idea…
Are you saying Zhaitan was that stupid, didn’t call the majority of its navy back when Orr was under attack?
There’s some debate there. We know Mordy is intelligent because we know he can talk, but that might simply be because he was the Elder Dragon of mind. With Zhaitan we never see him demonstrating much intelligence, and what could indicate intelligence (usage of tactics in battle) could be shifted onto the Champions.
If an Elder Dragon is threatening to destroy all civilization, would you really put all your effort into wiping out a limited threat that’s no longer threatening the wide people of Tyria?
No. Because that would be moronic.
Or simply rather OCD.
Uhh…
Yeah it did.
Rytlock sent Rox, Vigil sent the warmaster who’s still there. Not LA, no, but the Vigil took over the area, and said warmaster talked about Tequatl’s growth potentially being a response to the ongoing invasion of Orr.
That’s all they got.
The humans’ main enemy is Zhaitan, all they got left is just some politics.
The humans’ main enemy has been centaurs. Their dealings with dragon minions only happen once every few decades – when Port Stalwart and Port Noble got assaulted, when their fleet got assaulted, and Kellach. Humanity never really had that big of a role in fighting Zhaitan – Lion’s Arch did.[/quote]
The centaurs don’t have much power before the humans’ technology and magic. Compare to the Risen they are not much a threat.
We actually don’t see them fighting branded – that’s just the Vigil, but canonically before the Pact’s establishment.
Point being, however, that those are all active fronts. The remnants of the risen fleet aren’t an active front.
No they were, Risen are more aggressive than the others.
Actually, the fleet is not aggressive unless you go into their territory (like any other dragon minion army) or they’re led by a powerful dragon champion and launching an assault (such as Captain Whiting or Blightghast the Plaguebringer).
What? How did Port get into their territory? Why did they attack it then? Did LA get into their territory? Why did they launch the attack? They are the reason that Zhaitan needs to be taken out first. Are you saying the main fleet doesn’t even have a champion leading them?
Morgus Lethe was lured out by taking a ship into their territory. Same with all bone ships – for over two decades the sea trade existed after Zhaitan rose without even thinking the dead ships were real because the risen fleet is not aggressive unless provoked.
Then Zhaitan decided to mess up and even spread its influence to other lands, how is it not a huge threat? The 20 years of peace only meant Zhaitan was building its forces.
(edited by Slowpokeking.8720)
You really need to re-read Edge of Destiny and Sea of Sorrows.
The risen fleet did not go out to assault unless led by a dragon champion for a massive assault – they did not harass ships unless the ships came to them.
Are you saying that Zhaitan’s main fleet doesn’t even have a champion captain/dragon leading them if it exists? The Risen are very organized and have different ranks of champions. And its main naval forces don’t have a leader.
Morgus Lethe is explicitly stated to only assault ships that approach his lair. Morgus Lethe made its lair in modern trade routes because it knew the modern trade routes. But he and the crew he lead remained in place, waiting for victims to go to him.
Because he knew that people must come to this route. Why would a major fleet stay at places that nobody comes?
The risen’s activity, except in rare, once-in-a-few-decades cases like being led by Blightghast or Whiting, is purely reactive. They only assault those they see and hear – those that go near them, knowingly or not.
Much like the Dragonspawn did. Much like branded mostly do.
No, Claw Island had fought it over many times, the coast was influenced with Risen, it showed they were keep spreading their influence. The Hylek quest is an example, they didn’t have a champion leading them, they simply attack the village when they felt it was ready.
Champion Risen demonstrate a fair amount of autonomy. Granted this autonomy was limited in regards that it was autonomy in how they serve Zhaitan (so they couldn’t really go against Zhaitan but they could come up with unique tactics and plots in order to server Zhaitan).
Now if the other Risen remained then likely champions also remain and we know that champions control the run of the mill minions. So possibility A) they’re still serving the will of Zhaitan, so if Zhaitan told them to guard the ocean around Orr they’re still doing that B ) they’re now independent and have their own machinations. In theory Tequatl was becoming the next Zhaitan, possibly another Champion might be having the same idea…
Wait, if the Risen fleet have an intelligent champion leading them to continue harass the ocean, why isn’t them a top level threat that must be cleansed?
There’s some debate there. We know Mordy is intelligent because we know he can talk, but that might simply be because he was the Elder Dragon of mind. With Zhaitan we never see him demonstrating much intelligence, and what could indicate intelligence (usage of tactics in battle) could be shifted onto the Champions.
Oh really? Zhaitan built out the entire Risen army/navy, it was so organized like a human kingdom, it even knew to use the influence/power/ability of the Risen’s former life like making the kings and queens into its overseers, the ship captains into its Risen captain. Its assault was also very well prepared. Its forces are spreading over Tyria and let it become the most dangerous dragon. These all showed its intelligence.
The thing is a few ships hiding in the sea would be the least of Tyria’s problems they dont need to trade with Cantha/Elona at the moment.i mean only humans was trading with them in the 1st place(1 of 5 races!) the other races would gain/lose nothing /or simply dont care (keep in mind the Pact isnt a human only group)
(Really why would you go out looking for something when your being attacked right on your front porch? (and no im not going list every problem the races have to deal with if you played the game you should know!)
And zhaithan isnt just a mortal protecting its life/kingdom/family
it likely has seen many nation/kingdoms come and go (basically its not going to think like a mortal but more like a overconfident deity)
The thing is a few ships hiding in the sea would be the least of Tyria’s problems they dont need to trade with Cantha/Elona at the moment.i mean only humans was trading with them in the 1st place(1 of 5 races!) the other races would gain/lose nothing /or simply dont care (keep in mind the Pact isnt a human only group)
(Really why would you go out looking for something when your being attacked right on your front porch? (and no im not going list every problem the races have to deal with if you played the game you should know!)And zhaithan isnt just a mortal protecting its life/kingdom/family
it likely has seen many nation/kingdoms come and go (basically its not going to think like a mortal but more like a overconfident deity)
If it’s just a few dead ships left with Orr cleansed and Zhaitan down, why would it be able to stop everyone, I mean everyone from going to Elona and Cantha?
And let me ask you guys. How are we going to assure that these Risen ships won’t attack aggressively? Remember the Risen had attacked the livings many many times, more than any of the other dragon minions. They made clear that they wanted to kill all the livings. They are not mindless but probably the most cunning dragon minions we’ve seen(especially the mesmers had tricked us many times). Had they ever sign some treaty with the Risen? Even if they had it wouldn’t work. Did you remember the Hylek PS chapter? The Hylek had thought about the same thing and the Risen still attack them when the time had come. Now with Zhaitan gone, isn’t it the best time to get rid of these dangerous dead ships on the sea? Why would you allow these extremely dangerous and ruthless undead monsters to continue their menace? People had mentioned Teq, since Teq could still become a threat and get empowered after Zhaitan’s death, shouldn’t it alert people that we must cleanse the remaining Risen forces before they could gather strength?
A strong fleet, led by some dragon champions, used to be the most dangerous dragon’s minions. No reason it shouldn’t be one of the top priorities to take down.
Wow, this thread has derailed…
On the topic of Kryta: The main threat to Kryta is its internal conflict (Caudecus, bandits, and the White Mantle… which at least overlap and may or may not actually be distinct entities at all). The centaurs were only as successful as they were because they were assisted by Jennah’s human enemies.
With regards to the fleet – in Sea of Sorrows, the Krytan fleet launches from Port Royal. We can visit Port Royal in-game: it’s now Taidha Covington’s base. While we don’t know the circumstances (although I vaguely recall something about a Risen attack), it’s certainly not a Krytan port any more. Garrenhoff is technically Krytan, but only in the sense that there’s a map in Divinity’s Reach that says it is: Garrenhoff has been de facto independent for years with no Krytan arms of government present, so it’s not going to be a port for a Krytan navy either. Meanwhile, the ports on Lake Viathan are blocked from the open ocean by the Tenguwall. Unless there’s something in the unexplorable D’Alessio Seaboard – which seems unlikely because a) that area appears to be occupied by tengu as evidenced by the wall to the west of LA, and b) any port there would be even more isolated from areas under Krytan control than Garrenhoff – Kryta just doesn’t have a port on the Sea of Sorrows to service a navy.
There’s evidence that they do have warships on the lake north of Divinity’s Reach, but that’s irrelevant to the discussion.
Basically, the combination of Risen attacks, and contracting in order to defend the Krytan heartland, has removed Kryta’s presence from the Sea of Sorrows entirely. As for the Risen fleet – while it almost certainly has replacement champions since Morgus Lethe died (I suspect each ship has its commander), previous assaults have been under Zhaitan’s orders. Without those orders, the most likely scenario is that they’d continue doing what they’ve been doing… which is not launching further attacks. And with Tyria having faced greater threats since Zhaitan’s death? I’m sure there are people who would like to scour whatever’s left of Zhaitan’s navy from the seas, but it just isn’t a priority.
To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
Ok they going to ignore Teq/scarlett and her many alliance/karka/icebrood/Remaning risen on Land/flame leagion/centars/nightmare court/inquest/bandits/ascalon ghost/branded(and any other things attacking where people live) and mordy (who already weaken their biggest advantage (the airships) to go clear a huge area of hidden bone ship fleets? /makes sense
GW1 was human based story trading with cantha and elona made sense in a human dominated world. this isnt the same way in GW2 people prolly dont wanna amit it but it dosnt make any sense for the non human races to even wanna go to/trade with cantha/elona. with the Pact being multiracial alliance this would prolly be a reaaaallly low on their todo list xD
As for the Risen fleet – while it almost certainly has replacement champions since Morgus Lethe died (I suspect each ship has its commander), previous assaults have been under Zhaitan’s orders. Without those orders, the most likely scenario is that they’d continue doing what they’ve been doing… which is not launching further attacks. And with Tyria having faced greater threats since Zhaitan’s death? I’m sure there are people who would like to scour whatever’s left of Zhaitan’s navy from the seas, but it just isn’t a priority.
How are you going to assure it? Is there any treaty between the livings and the Risen? The Risen champions are intelligent beings. What proves that everything is Zhaitan’s order? What proves that they wouldn’t they launch attack themselves? Risen don’t attack frequently, they gather strength and launch a massive assault when they are ready, which would be too late.
Teq is a good alert, if you leave the Risen champions there, they find ways to empower themselves and become more aggressive(returns to devour and destroy) than ever. Teq didn’t have a fleet with itself and still became a much bigger threat than it was before. How could Tyria leave a massive Risen fleet, surely led by some champion there, continue to harass others and have time to gather strength?
Ok they going to ignore Teq/scarlett and her many alliance/karka/icebrood/Remaning risen on Land/flame leagion/centars/nightmare court/inquest/bandits/ascalon ghost/branded(and any other things attacking where people live) and mordy (who already weaken their biggest advantage (the airships) to go clear a huge area of hidden bone ship fleets? /makes sense
GW1 was human based story trading with cantha and elona made sense in a human dominated world. this isnt the same way in GW2 people prolly dont wanna amit it but it dosnt make any sense for the non human races to even wanna go to/trade with cantha/elona. with the Pact being multiracial alliance this would prolly be a reaaaallly low on their todo list xD
Yes, because other than Mordremoth, none of these had caused bigger threat than the Risen navy. We see how they operate, they gather strength and wait for time to come, then launch a massive assault against the livings. Do we want the Battle of Claw’s Island to happen again? Do we want another “Teq” with a massive Risen fleet in its command to attack port and harass everyone in the sea?
I’m seeing a lot of demands to prove the unprovable here.
While I think there are holes in the arguments trying to prove that Zhaitan’s blockade no longer exists that you can sail a Dead Ship through, it certainly is plausible that Zhaitan issued a recall order before his death. The back-and-forth of events in Orr are canonical for at least a year after Zhaitan’s death, and events in the Straits of Devastation involve significant naval assets on Zhaitan’s part. It’s plausible that the blockade fleet has been returning to Orr in dribs and drabs over the past years and breaking itself on the Pact’s forces.
It’s also plausible that no such recall order was given, or that it was given to some ships and not others. We can’t know. Neither can the people of Tyria. If the Pact in Orr is still being attacked by Risen-crewed ships, that indicates that Zhaitan’s navy still exists. If those attacks have stopped – does that mean that Zhaitan’s navy has run out of ships, or that there are some still out there, lurking beneath the waves? (Remembering that Bone Ships only pop up to the surface to attack.)
The Lost Shores update indicated that the threat from the Risen fleet has at least reduced (that’s the explanation for why both the karka and the Consortium went to Southsun), but that’s still relatively close to Lion’s Arch, while the blockade probably stretched from Orr to the Tarnished Coast
Furthermore, let’s assume that the blockade has been removed. What happens next?
While it was Zhaitan who established the blockade, the Deep Sea Dragon is in the Unending Ocean now, presenting a potential threat to surface shipping.
Airships are a possibility – the Zephyrites show that travelling between the continents by air could be done. However, the Zephyrite Sanctum was a very different ship to the Pact airships – larger and powered by different means. The Pact’s airships may not have the same range, and they may not be able to fly at the altitude of the Sanctum, making them more vulnerable to attacks from below. Their cargo capacity also seems fairly limited – by the time you include supplies for the journey, you may not have much left for trading. Consider that most of the Zephyrite trading was for supplies rather than profit, and that they have the ability to provide products that no one else can and that are relatively easy to transport (the Zephyrite crystals) – for them, the trade was necessary for the supplies needed to pursue their true goals. Intercontinental trading by airship just may not be profitable.
And as has already been raised… who would we trade with? The Order of Whispers maintains contact with the Elonan resistance according to the Movement of the World – they’re likely to use their political power to veto any attempts at opening non-hostile relations with Joko. While the situation in Cantha may have changed, last we heard they were hostile to nonhumans, and none of the main trading cartels that we know of in Tyria are human-owned. If airships do have the range, it’d be plausible to send a single human-crewed airship to Cantha to at least find out what the situation is down there… but even that may not be practical.
How are you going to assure it? Is there any treaty between the livings and the Risen? The Risen champions are intelligent beings.
Sure, it’s always possible that a Risen admiral might decide without orders from Zhaitan that abandoning the blockade to attack some random location will benefit Zhaitan in some way.
But a clear and present danger will always command more attention than a hypothetical possibility. Traditionally dealing with the Risen fleet has been Lion’s Arch’s responsibility, and we’ve seen what they’ve been occupied with since Zhaitan’s fall. More broadly, the powers of Tyria have been occupied by karka, Scarlet, Mordremoth, Flame Legion, ghosts, seperatists, Branded, Sons of Svanir, dredge, centaurs, bandits, and Nightmare Court. You’re claiming that someone must have done something about Zhaitan’s navy because it might possibly present a threat to some coastal region somewhere. But assuming that a point where we could confidently say it’s been eradicated could be reached at all, the question becomes “you and who’s navy?” I’ve just listed off a dozen threats off the top of my head that each present a greater and more immediate danger and are thus more pressing to the powers of Tyria than the hypothetical and remote possibility of Zhaitan’s blockade force spontaneously deciding to abandon its post and go raiding instead. Nobody cares about that possibility enough to do something about that possibility because nobody can afford to do anything about it.
Furthermore, the next question is… where would they attack? The only remaining coastal sites of significance are already well enough defended to hold off a raid – Rata Sum, the Grove, Garrenhoff, Lion’s Arch, and the Pact holdings on and near Orr. It’s probably reasonable to assume that whatever’s left of the fleet is not enough to pull off a repeat of the capture of Claw Island. If the powers of Tyria are thinking about the blockade at all, they’re probably hoping that it will attack one of those locations, because it would probably be much easier to deal with if it hurls itself into the teeth of land-based artillery than lurking underwater somewhere in the Straits of Malchor. It’s the very success of Zhaitan’s fleet in the past in scouring the Sea of Sorrows of any settlement without sufficient defences that renders whatever’s left of it unthreatening in the present… unless you’re trying to pass through the blockade, and as previously discussed, there appears to be no incentive to try that worth the risk.
To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
Sure, it’s always possible that a Risen admiral might decide without orders from Zhaitan that abandoning the blockade to attack some random location will benefit Zhaitan in some way.
But a clear and present danger will always command more attention than a hypothetical possibility. Traditionally dealing with the Risen fleet has been Lion’s Arch’s responsibility, and we’ve seen what they’ve been occupied with since Zhaitan’s fall. More broadly, the powers of Tyria have been occupied by karka, Scarlet, Mordremoth, Flame Legion, ghosts, seperatists, Branded, Sons of Svanir, dredge, centaurs, bandits, and Nightmare Court. You’re claiming that someone must have done something about Zhaitan’s navy because it might possibly present a threat to some coastal region somewhere. But assuming that a point where we could confidently say it’s been eradicated could be reached at all, the question becomes “you and who’s navy?” I’ve just listed off a dozen threats off the top of my head that each present a greater and more immediate danger and are thus more pressing to the powers of Tyria than the hypothetical and remote possibility of Zhaitan’s blockade force spontaneously deciding to abandon its post and go raiding instead. Nobody cares about that possibility enough to do something about that possibility because nobody can afford to do anything about it.
Furthermore, the next question is… where would they attack? The only remaining coastal sites of significance are already well enough defended to hold off a raid – Rata Sum, the Grove, Garrenhoff, Lion’s Arch, and the Pact holdings on and near Orr. It’s probably reasonable to assume that whatever’s left of the fleet is not enough to pull off a repeat of the capture of Claw Island. If the powers of Tyria are thinking about the blockade at all, they’re probably hoping that it will attack one of those locations, because it would probably be much easier to deal with if it hurls itself into the teeth of land-based artillery than lurking underwater somewhere in the Straits of Malchor. It’s the very success of Zhaitan’s fleet in the past in scouring the Sea of Sorrows of any settlement without sufficient defences that renders whatever’s left of it unthreatening in the present… unless you’re trying to pass through the blockade, and as previously discussed, there appears to be no incentive to try that worth the risk.
It’s not hypothetical at all, the Risen did provide many deadly attacks. Let’s say if there is a massive fleet left.
Do they have the strength to cause trouble? Yes.
Do they have the tactic skills? Yes.
Have they caused troubles before? Yes.
So the only question is, will the Risen do it? So are we betting our chance on the Risen, the ruthless undead monsters “won’t” do it? Especially when their style is to prepare for a while and launch massive attack? Hell no. If there is a massive fleet left, it’s no doubt the top priority.
And finding said fleet would be a massive undertaking, resource AND time wise.
If they are typically underwater, that means air scouting with airships and helicopters is pointless.
It also means you can’t use either as a means to lure them out. So basically you have to dedicate your own fleet to sailing all around the ocean, HOPING you hit Risen dead ships. And hope they aren’t patrolling themselves and are sitting still (unlikely).
It’s not hypothetical at all, the Risen did provide many deadly attacks. Let’s say if there is a massive fleet left.
Do they have the strength to cause trouble? Yes.
Do they have the tactic skills? Yes.
Have they caused troubles before? Yes.So the only question is, will the Risen do it? So are we betting our chance on the Risen, the ruthless undead monsters “won’t” do it? Especially when their style is to prepare for a while and launch massive attack? Hell no. If there is a massive fleet left, it’s no doubt the top priority.
Actual answers:
Maybe.
No.
Yes.
But that “yes” is under a time when they did have the tactical skills to cause problems, and definitely did have the strength to cause problems.
But you need to realize that the blockade and the massive assaults, while both done by the risen fleet, were done by different portions of it.
The ships that created the blockade retained being in the blockade even when massive assaults were underway. This is proven by the fact that the blockade always existed.
The “prepare for a while and launch a massive attack” is the style of Elder Dragons. Without Zhaitan, the risen would never do this again – or so the theory is. Without waiting another few decades without touching the risen, there’s no real way to be certain, since massive attacks only happen every 20+ years. And with the risen no longer raising their numbers as fast as they lose them like they did when Zhaitan was alive, there’d never be another point where they have the strength for a massive attack unless completely left alone in full and the risen get organized.
However, with Zhaitan’s death, the risen can’t get organized any more.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Another thing though, the blockade may be bolstered by Risen sea creatures/monsters.
Risen whales, leviathans, sharks, they could all be tasked to patrol a certain area of water, and sink any ships that go through. That’s even harder to track down and kill.
Slowpoke, you have to take into account the fact with all the other threats out there in Tyria, the Risen fleet wasn’t and still isn’t worth the effort to go in the ocean to lure them out. First because they actually rest underwater most of the time, so a fleet seeking to find and destroy them would have a very hard time to do so. Second, because if Zhaïtan wished to have even a somewhat effective navy, he probably made Champions out of every captain. And now that the Elder Dragon is dead, every Risen Captain will have a hard time working with the others, since they are all equals and if Tequatl is what happens to Champions when their Dragon die, then the Captains are probably fighting a war of dominance or going their own way.
We have seen in the Dragonbrand that without champions to direct them, even minions who have a Dragon master wander aimlessly. it is not hard to imagine Risen sea beasts doing the same, which weaken the Risen fleet as a whole. And since no races have any interest in sending resources to fight an army which, still formidable, poses no threat in the near-future, while others make their presence known (Mordremoth attacking everywhere, even Jormag continuing to push toward the South, on meter at a time) launching a full-scale sea war is not a top priority. That and the fact that sea battles can be far more deadlier than land battles, and that if the Risen fleet managed to coordinate against its foes, it could deliver a lot more damages and bolster their ranks quickly.
It’s not hypothetical at all, the Risen did provide many deadly attacks. Let’s say if there is a massive fleet left.
Do they have the strength to cause trouble? Yes.
Do they have the tactic skills? Yes.
Have they caused troubles before? Yes.So the only question is, will the Risen do it? So are we betting our chance on the Risen, the ruthless undead monsters “won’t” do it? Especially when their style is to prepare for a while and launch massive attack? Hell no. If there is a massive fleet left, it’s no doubt the top priority.
First question: Define ‘trouble’. As I mentioned above, all of the significant targets are well defended – the fleet required to launch a credible attack on any of those targets is probably much greater than the fleet required to maintain an effective blockade against surface ships that can be seen for miles at sea (we know that the blockade was fairly porous against swimmers, such as krait, largos, and quaggans, even before Zhaitan’s defeat). They could perform minor raids, but that puts them on a similar threat level to conventional pirates, of which there are plenty and closer by. (Also, with Zhaitan no longer a source of energy and Orr occupied by the Pact, their ability to create new Risen is probably, at least, significantly reduced.)
Second question: Tactically, yes, but that’s actually the wrong question.
The right question is: Do they have the strategic skills? Do they have the initiative?
Dragon minions (note that Mordremoth-controlled sylvari are not conventional dragon minions) that don’t have specific orders have a certain degree of autonomy to serve the dragon as they see fit (although in most cases, as Konig points out, this translates to ‘aimless wandering’, although I think there may be some champions in the early PS who might have been exceptions). Dragon minions given a broad directive have the autonomy to choose how they carry it out. A dragon minion given an order from their dragon, however, regards it as divine mandate. Literally – dragon minions worship their Elder Dragon with greater fervour than any mortal priest.
The Risen, as shown in the Arah explorable, do not believe Zhaitan is dead. Therefore, if Zhaitan didn’t recall them for the defence of Orr, it is reasonable to presume that they will remain on station, as in their minds Zhaitan is still alive and if Zhaitan wanted them to do something different, Zhaitan would tell them.
If, somehow, one did show the initiative to realise that those orders are never going to come, then its most likely response is going to be ‘help Zhaitan’ – which most likely means returning to Orr. Which is a win for the Pact, since it’s likely easier for them to take out Risen ships that come to them than to go hunting for them. Randomly attacking the shores of the Sea of Sorrows is highly unlikely.
Third question: As far as we know, not since Zhaitan died, with the exception of Tequatl – and even then, Tequatl just kept doing what it was doing before but with greater power. Other threats have been greater.
And that’s the main thing. Is it possible, despite all the above, that the Risen fleet might be a threat in the future? Yes. Can the nations and organisations of Tyria afford to spare major resources to deal with a threat that might arise (but there’s reason to believe it won’t) when they have other more pressing problems to deal with? Heck no. Sometimes, you have to acknowledge that there’s the chance something could go wrong, but the chance is remote and you just don’t have the means to deal with it. (Asteroid defence of Earth has been in that category until very recently…)
Additionally, while ArenaNet has been poor at informing us of goings-on outside of the main story… I’m pretty sure that if the Risen fleet had been eradicated and the blockade lifted, such a massive undertaking would have been mentioned. ArenaNet’s habit is that if you’re not specifically told a threat has been eradicated, it’s still hanging around even if the focus has moved elsewhere. Look at the White Mantle, which everyone believed was broken after Prophecies until War in Kryta. Look at the Afflicted, which gave Cantha seven more years of bad luck after Shiro fell.
To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
As for Palawa Joko. His conquest of Elona was blatantly mentioned as being an act of revenge against Mad King Thorn for humiliating him during those Halloweens on GW1.
When Palawa Joko said “Curse you, Thorn! I’m going to…” the Mad King specifically retorted “Yes, yes. Flood valleys, enslave nations. I’ve heard all of it before. I’d like to see you try!”
The Elona Expansion will only have us face Palawa Joko when Mad King Thorn starts humiliating him again forcing us to ally with the Mad King to get rid of Palawa Joko. Either that or Mad King Thorn himself will be the villain of the Elona Expansion.
The only plot point tied to Elona right now is Palawa Joko, Kralkatorrik and Mad King Thorn. Kralkatorrik is in recovery, Palawa Joko is content with his victory and Mad King Thorn might antagonize Joko as early as next Halloween if we are really unlucky.
I don’t consider that to be evidence that his motive for conquering Elona was entirely to spite King Thorn. King Thorn probably doesn’t give a flaming pumpkin what happened to Elona. If anything, if that was his motive, it would be incentive to go for Kryta. Meanwhile, his actions afterwards make it clear that revenge against the Ossas was his main priority.
The joke for that particular quest is that the thing that Thorn is so derisive about is the very thing that we as players knew he was going to do. (Albeit technically in reverse – Joko diverted the Elon in order to deny water to Elona, the flooding of the Crystal Desert was an added bonus.)
To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
Joko was always interested in ruling Elona – it’s what made him a threat 200 years before GW1. However, he never showed interest in ruling outside of Elona.
Maybe he just isn’t a ‘world domination’ warlord, which is uncommon for fantasy tropes to settle with just one nation.
Of course, we don’t know Joko’s origin. For all we know, Palawa Joko was a Primeval King or something and saw Elona as ‘rightfully his’ and thus wanted to take only what is ‘rightfully his’.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Joko was always interested in ruling Elona – it’s what made him a threat 200 years before GW1. However, he never showed interest in ruling outside of Elona.
Maybe he just isn’t a ‘world domination’ warlord, which is uncommon for fantasy tropes to settle with just one nation.
Of course, we don’t know Joko’s origin. For all we know, Palawa Joko was a Primeval King or something and saw Elona as ‘rightfully his’ and thus wanted to take only what is ‘rightfully his’.
That’s my thought. Joko might just be a rare example of a tyrant/evil overlord who conquered his nation, and that is what he wanted to rule. kitten the rest of the world, it can burn. He has the corner he wanted.
It’s possible, but another possibility is that historically, Joko hasn’t attacked unless he found a weakness. In his first invasion, that weakness was going through the Vehjin Mines and catching Vabbi by surprise that way. In the second, it was diverting the Elon.
His not attempting to expand north could simply be a matter of not finding a weak point before Zhaitan rose and started giving him bigger problems. The logical attack path would have been across the Crystal Desert to Ebonhawke and into southern Ascalon… but getting involved in the charr-human war would probably have been too unpredictable for Joko’s liking. The alternative was to attack Kryta, which appears to have been quite powerful before Zhaitan’s rise, and probably didn’t have any weak points that Joko could exploit.
One of Joko’s traits seems to be that he doesn’t pick fights unless he’s desperate or pretty certain that he’ll win, so his not expanding beyond Elona and the Crystal Desert may be more due to lack of opportunity than lack of motive.
To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
I’m not sure Palawa would be able to expand beyond Elona at this point. Even with the dragons gone he’d have to deal with factions that have technology far beyond what he likely has.
His undead armies wouldn’t fare very well against a fleet of airships bombarding his realm from a high altitude. Joko is essentially a weaker Zhaitan, and even Zhaitan wasn’t able to deal with the PACT’s airship fleet. And unlike Joko, Zhaitan had access to a massive army of giant dragon zombies for air dominance.
Granted it may be presumptuous to assume Elona hasn’t advanced as much as Tyria proper, but there are a few factors that make it a pretty reasonable assumption.
Unlike Tyria, Elona doesn’t have a cultural mixing pot of several races working together toward a common goal. Elona doesn’t have the Charr Legions and the Asura making huge leaps in technology and magic. Furthermore half of Elona are undead now, and a society that has all it’s needs met by the slave labor of undead that don’t have needs or wants likely isn’t going to feel the need to make large innovations.
If Joko has a desire to take Tyria he’d be best off waiting until the very last dragon is dead and Tyria has used up the vast majority of it’s resources and manpower in the process. Even then Tyria may be too powerful to take. We’ll have to see if the dragons keep letting us fight them in their own territory or if one or two will get the idea to take the fight to us personally.
Joko is stated to be stronger than Zhaitan not saying alot due to the fact that joko literally commands three times his amount of undead, and literally is the scourge of all life apparently. Personally i think he might of imprisoned Kraka and we actually might have to team up with the elder dragon to deal with joko? Kraka is smart, injured and having been subjugated to joko im sure he would be willing to side with old foes for revenge. Maybe we find he is different than the other elder dragons, he is smarter and more like glint actually becoming a willing partner to our conquests (( Unlikely))
Can you provide a source that says Joko is more powerful than Zhaitan? I find that incredibly hard to believe.
Joko is stated to be stronger than Zhaitan not saying alot due to the fact that joko literally commands three times his amount of undead, and literally is the scourge of all life apparently. Personally i think he might of imprisoned Kraka and we actually might have to team up with the elder dragon to deal with joko? Kraka is smart, injured and having been subjugated to joko im sure he would be willing to side with old foes for revenge. Maybe we find he is different than the other elder dragons, he is smarter and more like glint actually becoming a willing partner to our conquests (( Unlikely))
Joko has never been stated to be stronger then Zhaitan last I checked, nor has anything stated he commands three times the number of risen.
Also, Kralk is NOT INJURED. They only messed with Kralk’s mind, they never landed a blow on him.
Eir and Glint did land a few blows to him, and Kralkatorrik did fall from the sky in a nice big thud. But those amount to scratches and bruises that would heal in days/weeks tops, not years.
And we don’t know which direction Kralkatorrik flew – he might be nowhere near Joko’s forces, which last we knew only reached the southern Crystal Desert where it clashed with Zhaitan’s forces on supposedly equal footing.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.