Guild Wars 2

There recently was a thread about Human’s re-taking Ascalon & a counter-thread about the Charr taking Kryta. I would like to propose a different direction for Expansion: East.

Credit to That_Shaman at http://thatshaman.blogspot.com/ for his map of Tyria

I have taken a few liberties with That_Shaman’s map and made “guesses” to the Homelands of Ash being east of Blood. Also, the Ogre & Harpy Mountains and Centaurs (in a Great Steppe) are guesses to on the likely geography of those regions and inhabitants. The Great Northern Forest is a guess too.

Here is roughly what I feel the final treaty between the Charr and the Humans (I believe the currently is only an Armistice?) should be:

The Charr Legions and Human nations here undersigned (Blood, Ash, Iron, Kryta, & Ebonhawke) recognize an end of hostilities and agree to the following borders of Ebonhawke from the Shiverpeak Mountains West to the Inner Sea following the natural geographic boundaries. From the Regent Valley south to the Crystal Desert following the natural geographic boundaries. With the exception of the lands around Lake Tenaebron and Varim’s Run and the Exclave of Deathblade Watch and the surrounding region. In addition, the Secluded Glen where Killeen is buried will be a Neutral site claimed by neither Human nor Charr.

Ebonhawke and Kryta will renounce for all time any claims on lands of former Ascalon not listed above.

Ebonhawke and Kryta must be two separate political entities. They are forbidden from merging crowns (if a ruler comes from the same family must renounce claims to the other state), sharing rulers, be in a Feudatory/Vassal relationship, or in any other form share political control between the two entities.

Ebonhawke and Krtya must actively engage Human seperatists to end their fighting and for those not sought by the Charr, be re-integrated into Human society. The Charr Legions will jointly provide a list of wanted criminals. Said list will not exceed 500 names.

The Charr Legions will allow Ebonhawke & Kryta to trade, with each of three Legions without any prohibitive Tariffs.

The Charr Legions will consider joint commercial and military activities (read colonies) between themselves and Ebonhawke throughout the Inner Sea region.

Credit to That_Shaman at http://thatshaman.blogspot.com/ for his Game Map showing GW1 & GW2 regions.

The Green lines are some of the new Regions I was thinking would be added to support this treaty. In the case of Blazeridge Coast there would be another area to the East of it being the Peninsula that extends into the Inner Sea. I choose the Valley of New Rin, as I assumed New Rin would be the name of the town (eventually city) on the Inner Sea coast the Humans would form to Trade between each of the Charr Legions.

ANALYSIS: Is this treaty fare, no it is not. Though, the Charr can claim that the Humans are getting more than they deserve. Where the Humans can claim they are being dictated too by the Charr. However, both sides do see enough benefits to offset any issues.

The Humans get recognized borders (which are actually larger than they currently control), end of hostility (so resources can flow elsewhere), they Keep Regents Valley & the symbolically important King’s Watch, and lastly the trade & potential joint colonies would be a huge long-term boon. Also, the Humans will have effects elsewhere Rurikton will see a large loss of population immigrating to New Ascalon/Ebonhawke lands. This will lower housing prices in Divinities Reach, which is over-crowded anyway so this is a big positive (especially for the lower-classes). The Ascalon Settlement too will suffer population losses, which short-term is a negative for Kryta. However, considering how many Human’s migrate to her even those lands will be filled with new settlers (who probably will change the Town’s name).

The Charr get the Humans renouncing claims to Ascalon (they will in writing get the Human’s to admit they lost to the Charr), they force Ebonhawke & Kryta to be separate entities (Jenna might be a peacenik, but her descendants might not), they force the Humans to help them solve their Separatist problems (more below on this), the increased trade, and potential future joint colonies we be an economic boon.

Separatists: If anyone thinks they are going away with this treaty. I know a bridge I can sell you. However, they all will be effected differently. The Separatists groups south of the Broken Wall mostly likely pull many of their recruits from areas that now fall under Human control. Those groups (mostly in Plains of Ashford & Southern Blazeridge Steppes) are going to mostly re-turn to Ebonhawke and re-integrate. This will be another manpower source for New Ascalon/Ebonhawke. The exception being the one’s the Charr name, and any die-hard fanatics. However, the Separatists found around and above the Broken Wall most likely draw their manpower from hidden Human settlements that still exist in the now Charr controlled regions. So, most of them will not give up as their Home is outside of Human controlled lands. They will be reinforced by the previously mentioned named Separatists & die-hard fanatics.

Renegades & Gold/Flame Legion: To be honest both these groups will out-right grow in strength. The first group by not accepting the Treaty & the Second group by pointing out how weak the current Charr leadership is in accepting less than full submission. In fact many of the area’s below the Broken Wall the above Human Separatists leave will immediately fall under the control of these two. The treaty is roughly pro-Charr, but not nearly as repressive as many Charr would like. In fact, in many ways the Humans actually have a better deal long-term than the Charr do, especially if they leverage the three legions natural dislike of each other into controlling trade of the Inner Sea. Lastly, the treaty benefits the Iron Legion a lot more than Ash or Blood. This might grow into a bigger problem long-term as the Iron has gotten it far too good since Ascalon fell. They may have Khan-Ur, but we are talking about a species that rejects the worship of God’s. So the symbolize advantage of having Khan-Ur is a lot less than it was in the early day’s.

Major problem is that your “New Valley of Rin” is heavy ogre territory. The Blazeridge Mountains are primarily ogre territory all along that we see, and directly east of Ebonhawke especially.

A second issue is that east of the Blazeridge Mountains is still Blood Legion territory. And the Blood Legion are the least likely legion to give up stuff for humans given their current Imperator (who’s only going along with the treaty because he doesn’t want to start a war with Iron and Ash at the same time – some theories place him as a supporter of the Renegades, due to his described “wild card personality” and how it seems most Renegades are former Blood).

TBH, I think the smart move would be to use the dragonbrand as the “geographical border” and give them all of Ascalon east of that – to as far as humans dare into the Blazeridge without entering Blood territory on the other side.

I don’t think demanding a separation of power between Kryta and Ebonhawke is either something the charr particularly want or that they would be able to get if they asked for it (historically, treaties that demand that nations that would prefer to join remain separate generally lead to conflict later on). While such a stipulation might appear to provide a layer of protection against a Krytan invasion of charr lands, it does little in practise to prevent Ebonhawke from coming under de facto control of Kryta should a Krytan leader seek to wage a war. A formal unification of Kryta and Ebonhawke may actually be desirable from Smodur’s perspective, as it stops Ebonhawke from unilaterally breaking the treaty when Kryta would prefer the treaty to be upheld, and it means that the treaty stipulations that apply to Ebonhawke can then be applied to Kryta.

There’s also a problem with suggesting that humans get the Regent Valley area: just because a region isn’t explorable ingame doesn’t mean it’s empty. We’ve had confirmation in an interview that the western edge of Queensdale is not actually the western border of Kryta along the coast, and the Loamhurst region is still Krytan – similarly, it’s likely that charr have settled the Regent Valley area. In fact, Sea of Sorrows indicates that, before Zhaitan’s rise, they’d gone far enough south to have a port on the Sea of Elon.

What I suspect that Smodur is actually aiming for is:

a) Give Ebonhawke the region east of the Dragonbrand. How far north this extends is something that he can keep as a bargaining chip, but this has a number of advantages: First, the Brand, even if cleansed, will likely remain as a recognisable natural boundary. Second, there are few charr settlements in that region, and they can be protected as part of the stipulations of the treaty (see below). Third, it means that Smodur no longer has to worry about supplying a military force on the opposite side of the Brand, as any problems in that region – Branded moving east, ogres and harpies coming down from the Blazeridge, and so on – become Ebonhawke’s problem.

b) Allow for humans to settle in Iron Legion territory, and for Iron Legion charr to settle (or remain settled) in Ebonhawke-controlled territory without fear of discrimination, as long as they follow the laws of the nation in which they reside. (Humans are already allowed to live in the Black Citadel, so it’s likely that Smodur wouldn’t object to them living elsewhere in Iron Legion territory as long as they’re willing to follow Iron Legion rules).

c) A framework by which the Iron Legion (and possibly other legions) and the military of Ebonhawke can, and are expected to, assist one another against common threats… similar to how Blood, Iron and Ash so cooperate.

d) A stipulation that if Ebonhawke was to be absorbed into any larger human nation (such as Kryta) that said human nation abide by the treaty.

Part c is the important part here. To begin with, it would cover reigning in the Seperatists (which are largely considered criminals by Ebonhawke as well). Furthermore, the charr catchcry is “victory by any means” – and the charr are coming to recognise that other means of victory beyond military subjugation exists. The charr legions already provide a model by which nations can be independent yet support one another – if the military power that has in the past been the greatest rival to the charr can be incorporated into that structure, that’s a big win. Particularly since it’s likely that such a precedent would start bringing in other races as well.

I find this very interesting. And something I’d be happy with if it happened in game.

But I will say. I don’t see the Ascalon settlement losing its population. It means too much to the people who live there. Not to mention what there ancestors went through to have that land. “New Ascalon” would not be any safer than where they live now, if anything it would be more of a risk. There might be some, but not the amount that would change anything in Kryta all that much.

BrotherBelial.3094:

“New Ascalon” would not be any safer than where they live now, if anything it would be more of a risk.

That depends on whether the centaur war improves by the time this hypothetical land grant happens. If the choice is between unoccupied frontier riddled with monsters and monstrous races, or living under constant threat of siege by a hostile monstrous race and needing to rely on a resented force for protection, I think “New Ascalon” would be very attractive. The ancestor thing swings both ways- they only came to Kryta because they had to choose between leaving Ascalon and constant war, after all. If the situation is reversed, why wouldn’t they do as their ancestors did, and reclaim a measure of their ancestral land in the process?

Aaron Ansari.1604:

BrotherBelial.3094:

“New Ascalon” would not be any safer than where they live now, if anything it would be more of a risk.

That depends on whether the centaur war improves by the time this hypothetical land grant happens. If the choice is between unoccupied frontier riddled with monsters and monstrous races, or living under constant threat of siege by a hostile monstrous race and needing to rely on a resented force for protection, I think “New Ascalon” would be very attractive. The ancestor thing swings both ways- they only came to Kryta because they had to choose between leaving Ascalon and constant war, after all. If the situation is reversed, why wouldn’t they do as their ancestors did, and reclaim a measure of their ancestral land in the process?

They left because Rulrik knew Ascalon was lost. And he did it to save his people. We know how things turned out for those who stayed. Some might return if there ancestral home was in the land granted back. But if not then no real resin to move. Not until somewhere safer had been set up. I’d only see most Ascalonian decants moving back, if they could reclaim plains of Ashford. In GW1 that is shown to be the bulk of where people are, North of the wall was too dangerous for most. The way I see it is if you moved out of your childhood home. To have your mom and dad sell up and move else where. Then move back to the same street but a different house. It just wouldn’t be the same.

My point, though, is that even if it’s just a bunch of tents in harpy-infested wilderness, it might still be safer than a centaur-besieged town.

Thank you all for your comments!

Konig Des Todes,
Let me start off with the borders I came up with were based on the assumption that there was no Charr settlement in South Ascalon and all areas East of Fields for Ruin were unclaimed by a major nation. Obviously if the facts on the ground were different than those borders would not be realistic. If that is true your suggestion of using the Brand as the Western border would be the best solution. Though, losing King’s Watch would by another symbolic blow.

In regards to the Blood Legion homelands, I am working under the assumption they are North not East even though that is where the Legions of Charr put them. The wiki based on my understanding says they are now North: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Legion_Homelands

In regards to the New Rin Valley province. I am assuming the Geography would be similar to the Caucasus Mountains (say Azerbaijan).

Draxynnic,
As in the above response, I am working on the assumption there was no real Charr settlement in South Ascalon. I am basing it on two points as the area is not in game so we do not know. The first point is the area was very rural under Ascalon other than a fishing village and King’s Watch there were no other major settlements that would draw the Charr’s attention. The other point is if you look at the Charr settlement pattern, other than the Ascalon lands the Charr did not permanently stay in any other lands between Orr and Ascalon. Yes, there is a noticeable Charr presence in the Lion Arch colonies, but that is more likely do to the Cosmopolitan nature of the nation. If the Charr were still in Sparkly Fen or even parts of Mount Maelstrom than I would feel less confident in assuming South Ascalon is probably unclaimed by the Charr. As with the above it the facts on the ground are different then your suggestion of using the Brand does work the best. Though, losing King’s Watch would by another symbolic blow.

In regards to the political separation, I put it in there as it is a very pro-Charr item. In the 18th Century all of Europe fought multiple wars to keep France and Spain from joining crowns. Putting all the Humans under one leader is not in the Charr’s best long-term interests. If the Dragon’s are defeated the Human Gods might return. The Cantha might show up with an army full of Xenophobic Humans, after the Sea Dragon is defeated (Especially if they did the defeating). Plus, Jenna frankly is a weak ruler, she is good at diplomacy, but not much else. As even in Kryta she has multiple Noble conspiracies running against her. One of her descendants might be another Doric. To me if Bangar were negotiating the treaty he would not care if the Humans stayed united. Malic or Smodur, though would look at all possible long-term scenario’s and decide it is too risky to keep the Humans united.

In regards to the your parts a-d, it sounds like we are thinking roughly the same end goal. Though, with different paths on trying to get there. I feel the political separation is necessary to bring New Ascalon & Ebonhawke into the fold with the Legions. As it uses geography (Kryta is that nation over the Shiverpeaks) and the inevitable cross-trade patterns (I am thinking the Inner Sea would turn into a major trading water superhighway in a century or so) to slowly bridge the Species and Cultural divide.

BrotherBelial and Aaron Ansari,
I do not feel all of the population would leave the Ascalon settlement, but as a mostly Ascalon ancestry settlement it would lose a large portion of it’s population. Let me throw out some numbers to what I am thinking:

Kryta I am going to say is roughly 17th Century France with an additional refugee population added in so, lets say 23-24 Million. Divinity’s Reach I think is probably bigger than Paris (which was a very large city to start with), due to the refugees so I am thinking maybe Constantinople/Istanbul size. Therefore, we are looking at 600,000 to 700,000.

For Ebonhawke (pre-treaty) as a military frontier area, it would be a lot more Urban than normal Human settlement in the Early Modern Era. So, I am thinking it would be 150,000 to 200,000 with a total Urban and Rural settlement population of 500,000 or so.

I am guessing that 1.5 to 2 million people (would be less than 10% of Kryta no matter what) would emigrate to Ebonhawke & New Ascalon post treaty. This would be over a 5-10 year period not all at once. They might pick up 50,000-300,00 in Separatists and their families (there has to be hidden Human settlements in the Charr lands to support some of those camps so far from Human controlled lands). Plus up to 500,000 non-Humans. This large number is based on Deathblade Watch being incorporated into the new Kingdom, if that is not true then probably less than half that number.

Here are my thoughts on other nation populations:
Lion’s Arch 2-2.5 million total with 180,000 in the City pre-attack by Scarlet (basically similar to the Venice and her colonies). NOTE: Lion’s Arch as a nation is probably less than 60% Human.

Asura (basing them off of Italy), say 13 million total with 200,000 to 300,000 in Rata Sum. They also have a large non-resident population so, there might be up to 20 million in total.

Norn (If I based it off of all Scandinavian regions we are talking 2.5-3 million only) I am going to say 4-12 million as the Shiverpeaks is a very long Mountain chain and frankly I have no good Human/Earth example to use.

Sylvari, like the Norn there are really no good Human/Earth examples. Maybe 15+ million with 100,000 to 200,000 in the Grove.

The Charr (To me they are similar to a Horde type nation, so total population figures are misleading as they have a larger percentage of the adult population in the Military then most other countries. Like 30% to 40%) I am going to go with 35 million of all four Legions combined, similar to the Ottoman Empire at it’s height. Though, that gives them a military of up to 14 million, which the other nations are thankful are not united under a single leader.

I think trying to retake Ascalon in any fashion (militarily, or diplomatically)is a doomed expedition until the Foefire is dealt with.

I also vote humanity is better served heading south to kick Palawa Joko out of Istan, Vabbi, and Kourna. It’s time us humans fixed what our ancestors broke by letting that bag of bones loose and not putting him down immediately after Abaddon was destroyed.

Again thanks for the continued interest and comments.

Tobias Trueflight,

Though, I agree liberating Elona is a Noble endeavor, but the logistics issue and unified political will would be tough to muster for such an under-taking at this time. In regards to logistics you either cross a desert heading south from Ebonhawke (which you had to gate the troops & supplies too in the first place), and/or send a fleet past Orr (which though recently liberated still contains hostile forces). On the political will front, it really is not in the best interests of anyone other than the Humans to re-establish contact. It would be adding an unknown political entity to the mix, which no one will no where they stand or how to interact with them. In addition, any forces designated to this fight would be forces that get removed from some other fight like with the Centaurs or the Dragons. However, setting up New Ascalon would make such endeavor easier in 10 years time as now you have a whole mostly Human country bordering up to the Desert.

I feel I that my of name chose of the South Ascalon province is leading to mis-understanding here. If you look at the 2nd map I posted from That Shaman where it overlays GW1 regions on the GW2 game map. It shows that other than a fishing village and King’s Watch there was almost no settlement in that area. Plus all of the settlement is in the extreme northern part of the province. My choice of names is solely symbolic (which is useful that King’s watch is there). Fields of Ruin & Ebonhawke were settled by Ascalonians, but they were always effectively outside of the Kingdom. The whole point of the South Ascalon province is to make a lineage connection (even though probably less than 20% of the province was actually part of Ascalon) between Ascalon and New Ascalon. This is to help convince hard-liners & Separatists to come back into the fold. In regards to the Foefire it is possible that South Ascalon was far enough away that they were not affected and/or if they were only the northern part would have Ghosts. It also would be interesting to see if the Ghosts disappear after the first King of New Ascalon is crowned at King’s Watch. The later part would put the Charr in a bind a bit.

DanF Griffin.3876:

Though, I agree liberating Elona is a Noble endeavor, but the logistics issue and unified political will would be tough to muster for such an under-taking at this time.

So would it be towards going back to Ascalon. Kryta sort of doubled-down on their intentions of having peace with the charr. Without a change of rulership, such a thing is . . . off the table.

In regards to logistics you either cross a desert heading south from Ebonhawke (which you had to gate the troops & supplies to in the first place), and/or send a fleet past Orr (which though recently liberated still contains hostile forces).

No, you don’t need to worry about that. What you do is simpler – you put plans in motion so you have supplies and personnel ready for after Mordremoth is eliminated. Then you lobby the Pact to turn their attention to tracking Kralkatorrik in the Crystal Desert. Send extra materiel along with it, intending to use that push as the spearhead and have the expedition split off after there is enough “beachhead” secured to move further.

On the political will front, it really is not in the best interests of anyone other than the Humans to re-establish contact. It would be adding an unknown political entity to the mix, which no one will no where they stand or how to interact with them.

It’s mostly a human matter, and something which does not need the authorization of anyone else. Also, all it would take were some of Elonian descent who were interested in putting their influence to work. Perhaps it’s possible to find some high-ranked in the Seraph, or even in the Lionguard. (I’d put my bets on the latter.)

Personally, I think it’d be easier to convince Lion’s Arch to tickle Jormag under the tailbase with a moa feather than to help with anything other than their vaunted and completely successful restoration project of their city (heh) . . . but a Lionguard jumping to organize it?

Even more potential in one of the three Orders which comprise the Pact deciding they need to head back south. (I could take bets on one of two which would have significant interest in it.)

In addition, any forces designated to this fight would be forces that get removed from some other fight like with the Centaurs or the Dragons. However, setting up New Ascalon would make such endeavor easier in 10 years time as now you have a whole mostly Human country bordering up to the Desert.

New Ascalon won’t work as a territory unless the charr agree. They’re less likely to agree within ten years’ time to that, than they are to allowing an expeditionary force to be built under the watchful eyes of the Legions to be sure it’s going south and not north.

In regards to the Foefire it is possible that South Ascalon was far enough away that they were not affected and/or if they were only the northern part would have Ghosts. It also would be interesting to see if the Ghosts disappear after the first King of New Ascalon is crowned at King’s Watch. The later part would put the Charr in a bind a bit.

First, we don’t know the rules of the Foefire, and never have had a full disclosure since the only real source of information on what the curse did was King Adelbern. He’s not telling anyone anything. We know there was an attempt at a ritual to dissipate the curse and it worked in a minor localized way, but the ending of it suggested this would not be something which could be repeated.

Secondly, I doubt the charr would be put in a bind if the Foefire Ghosts are removed – they are one of the few elements specifically keeping pressure on the charr and keeping their mind off other things. The Flame Legion is, for the moment, broken. The Brand is mostly secure. The dredge are more of a nuisance to the charr than a real threat, as opposed to the ogre tribes in the east. A “New Ascalon”, especially if made against the wishes of the charr and Kryta, would not put things in a bind . . .

I expect if a New Ascalon was founded and carved out against the wishes of the charr and Kryta, we’d have Iron and Blood Legion very . . . very . . . quickly put it down.

Regarding seperation:

The war of succession you refer to was indeed fought to prevent a unification of thrones… but what happened a century later? French and Spanish fleets combining for the Battle of Trafalgar. Similarly, the Treaty of Versailles forbid Germany and Austria from uniting, and what happened then?

Yup.

People who are inclined to ally are likely to ally regardless of any stipulation saying they can’t formally unify. The war you refer to probably did make sense according to the belligerents and the way people thought about politics in that context, but keep in mind that medieval Europe was still a world of predominantly Christian Caucasians where often the biggest cultural divide was Protestantism versus Catholicism. We’re also talking about historical societies where monarchs could simply choose which direction a nation takes and the nation would generally follow, while that does not seem to be the case in GW2 (the charr Imperators probably being the most authoritarian leaders there are among the playable races, and even then they have to pay attention to the wishes of their subordinates).

Between charr and humans, races which are different species with very different outlooks on life…

Well, in none of the circumstances you list are Kryta and a hypothetical New Ascalon likely to hold back from fighting alongside one another just because of a treaty preventing them from politically uniting. The charr themselves have seen this – they haven’t been united under a single figure since the rebellion (and arguably not since the Khan-Ur) and yet they’ve been perfectly capable of acting as a unified force for centuries. Separating them might, on the one hand, provide a check in that both Kryta and Ascalon would have to decide to go to war for the charr to be facing both – on the other hand, however, if they were united, then the Krytan government would be able to restrain an Ascalonian hothead from restarting the war unilaterally. What’s a better guarantee of peace would be persuading the Krytans and the Ascalonians that they’d rather live at peace with the charr instead of exterminating them even if in some hypothetical future they had the power to do so – and for the charr to impose conditions on how the humans govern themselves is likely to breed resentment and prevent exactly that.

IMO, if the charr are genuine about wanting a long-term peace, they’re better off butting out of intraspecies human politics and sticking to stipulations on their interspecies relations.

When it comes to South Ascalon…

As I said, we know that the charr at least had a port down there once. It’s possible it’s been abandoned, however. Either way… if the charr have simply left that land fallow, the most likely reason is that it’s not suitable for the charr due to its mountainous nature (we’re talking about the join of the Blazeridge and the Shiverpeaks there, and on that regard, the region you have labelled as “Plains of Doric” are not actually plains, but the region of the Blazeridge that seperates the Ascalonian plateau from the Crystal Desert. If much of that land is abandoned, it is probably so because it’s not attractive land for charr or humans.

Incidentally, I think you’ve overblown your population estimates.

Such estimates are complicated by the fact that we’ve never had a strict scale of how large things are supposed to be, but all of the nations are fairly small by modern European standards. The trip between Ascalon and Ebonhawke, for instance, is a matter of days, suggesting that from Ascalon to the Wall is probably less than a hundred kilometers. On this scale, Kryta today is probably more roughly the size of Belgium or a pre-unification Italian city-state than France – however big Divinity’s Reach is, it’s the only major city Kryta has left, with only having control of a few towns and villages within a few days’ walk in any direction. If we take the more generous land area estimate, Belgium’s population even in the 2014 census is barely over 11 million, so I’d expect Kryta to be much less than that. Using early modern historical figures for the Netherlands as a guide, I’d estimate a population of between 2-4 million, and that’s an outward estimate.

For Ebonhawke: Your urban pre-treaty population may be accurate (although note that your estimate is still quite high for a premodern city) but I don’t think the ‘hidden human settlements’ you refer to exist: the Seperatist camps we see ARE their bases around charr territory, and they’re only able to exist because of the treaty (the treaty allows humans to travel charr territories freely, thus allowing the Seperatists and their sympathisers to move back and forth freely as long as they avoid being recognised. Pre-treaty, apart from raiding parties, Ebonhawke was pretty much penned up inside Ebonhawke (note that all economic activities, such as farming and mining, are carried out within the walls, even if lorewise there may be more such space than the game engine was able to handle, and much is made of Ebonhawke’s economic reliance on Kryta).

Lion’s Arch is basically the central city, Applenook (some people think it’s Krytan, but to me it seems more to be LA’s breadbasket) and scattered military outposts. Using Venice as a model, I’d be surprised if its pre-Scarlet population was over 200,000.

Asura are even more of a city-state than Kryta, although we don’t know how much territory they hold to the west of Rata Sum. Furthermore, most asura ‘settlements’ seem to be labs rather than additional towns… although there are a couple around. Either way, if the asuran population was much more than a million, I would be surprised.

Sylvari are about the same – less territory (although they do have some outposts on the opposite side of the Sea of Sorrows, but it’s unclear if these are purely military), more population density.

For norn, I would look at Himalayan nations – the norn have a similar environment and lack of large settlements (Hoelbrak is only large because the buildings they do have are massive halls and it’s generally built to norn scale – but the actual population is probably smaller than the other “cities”. Since many of these nations are still developing, we can probably use modern figures as a guide – Bhutan is about the right size, and has a population of around 750,000.

Now the Charr… that one is a pain to estimate since we basically have no idea how much territory the charr actually control. However, one factor you need to remember with charr population estimates is that they’re carnivores – and high-meat diets take a lot more land to sustain a person than omnivorous or vegetarian diets. While they have permanent settlements, most of their food comes from herding cattle, so in calculating what they might have the capacity to feed Mongolia might be a good analogy – which has a population of about three million. Since it’s likely that the charr control less area than modern Mongolia, and that the charr are twice as large (and thus probably require twice as much meat) as a typical Mongolian, the actual population is probably quite a bit less.

Since, apart from the conditions of the Searing (where the human kingdoms were exhausted by fighting one another and then hit by the titan ex machina of the Searing Cauldrons) the charr have historically seemed to be more or less evenly matched against a single human kingdom, this seems reasonable.

Mental Paradox.3845:

“Ebonhawke and Kryta must be two separate political entities. They are forbidden from merging crowns (if a ruler comes from the same family must renounce claims to the other state), sharing rulers, be in a Feudatory/Vassal relationship, or in any other form share political control between the two entities.”

- Why?? Are you also going to demand the charr legions split up? It’s no one’s business except humanity’s.

I don’t understand how this “must be done” either.

This thread is terrifying. I’m called a fascist for always choosing the side of humanity, but this “treaty” can be proposed and everybody is totally cool with this.

“Bring New Ascalon and Ebonhawke into the fold”? How about NO? The charr don’t get to dictate whether Kryta and Ascalon can unite or not. I say we stick to the original treaty, and just wage war around Ascalon and seize unclaimed land. A cold war of sorts.

I think Jennah is indeed a weak ruler, and the charr are strong. Humanity needs to show its teeth if they don’t want to become the charr’s kitten.

Again thanks everyone for your continued feedback!

Tobias Trueflight,
Your Elona liberation plan is brilliant! I think that would work, there are undoubtedly a few Noble families and High ranking Seraph Officers of Elona descent in Kryta. So, getting together a council or task force to put this together should be easy. Not to mention no one would even question if Kryta were assembling a larger force and logistics tail than what was necessary. People would just assume the Humans were over-planning the whole thing.

In regards to New Ascalon I agree, this depends a lot on the good will of the Charr. The within 10 years comment was to the fact is 10 years later New Ascalon would have a larger population base, and would be able to serve as a true launching point for an expedition instead of just a pass through.

In regards to putting the Charr in a bind, I was working off the belief that the Ghosts would disappear in only the area within New Ascalon. Not within Ascalon as a whole. Basically, any lands New Ascalon controlled would become Ghost free, while the Charr are stuck with them.

As I stated in the opening posts the whole idea of New Ascalon to be founded upon a final peace treaty with the Charr, not to be carved out without the Charr’s support or permission.

Draxynnic,
France and Spain technically were never united during the Napoleonic era. They were allied nations at Trafalgar, just as Spain was allied to France under the Bourbons. Napoleon did attempt to unite them by force, but he never completely took over all of Spain or her possessions. Versailles did not want a Greater Germany by popular accumulation. It was also not the treaty that failed, but political leadership of France and the UK. All treaties are pieces of paper that provide you “justification” for your actions. They cannot stop anything, if there is no “Will” behind them. So, I agree that a treaty would not prevent New Ascalon & Kryta for unifying. It does however, give the Charr a “Just Reason” to declare war on the Humans.

Actually, I feel holding Ebonhawke as a hostage would breed more resentment for Humanity than letting her go as a separate country. My though process is the “status quo” is basically, if Kryta declares war or even kittenes off the Charr they invade/attempt to slaughter Ebonhawke. In addition, Ebonhawke will eventually break from Kryta. It is too far away, and frankly if the armistice becomes permanent (the resource requirements drop dramatically. In the end you probably will get a situation where Ebonhawke is run as a colony that Kryta exploits for resources. Which will lead to an Ebonhawke revolt.

This leads my next point, which alas I should of made in earlier posts (I am sorry). From the Charr’s perspective separating Kryta and New Ascalon gives them the potential to turn New Ascalon or Kryta into a real ally. I think someone previously mentioned about using the Legion ally model (which with a large Charr minority population it becomes possible). New Ascalon is regionally linked to the Charr, plus with the new trade connections that can develop between the Legions and New Ascalon. It potentially could become like a sister nation or “Little Legion.” However, it could also swing hard the other way, which means New Ascalon would resent her Charr minority and the “limitations” the Charr put on them. In that case the Charr can play off Kryta (who is far away and not directly threatened by the Charr now). The End state is New Ascalon gives the Charr more options than the “Status Quo.”

In regards to the Plains of Doric, really was just trying to come up with a name. I mentioned it previously, but I think Azerbaijan would be a good parallel of the type of lands New Ascalon would have. So, you are looking at rough mountain pasture lands. So, some farming but mostly goat and sheep herds would work, and it could be traded to the Charr. It would also be great for horses if they existed. So, yes it is not a paradise, but it does give the Humans more lands. If they are willing to fight the Ogres and Harpies for it.

Wow, I thought the small size was based on the game engine, and we are supposed to view this as a representation. I was originally viewing the area we see on the Game map to equal to Europe in size (with the whole continent of Tyria being roughly Eur-Asia sized). What you are saying it is more like the game map as a whole might be the size of France or Germany. You know I am not sure how the Pact has what it has. It just would not work as the Industrial base is too small. I feel I am being generous in saying they are 17th Century (instead of a Middle Ages time period) society with magic & different firearm technology (that has such low penetration that armor is still viable). Oh, well the “Rule of Cool” obviously supersedes everything.

The Spanish Netherlands and the Netherlands had about 1.5 million each, so Kryta would be 3 Million with maybe 500,000 additional refugees descendants. Divinity’s Reach might be north of 200,000 as Amsterdam was during the 17th century. Florence might be a better example for Lions Arch then so you are looking at 70,000 pre-attack tops.

I think your new estimates of 1 Million Asura (including ex-pats) and probably similar number of Sylvari (also including expats). 750,000 Norns sounds right too.

In regards to Charr, when the Qing crushed the Oirats (Western Mongols) there was about 1 Million before they were slaughtered. So, saying there is a 1 Million Charr is probably safe. As we are talking about the Mongol population during the 17th Century in the less hospital portion of Mongolia.

Moscow had about 200,000 people and was a military frontier city. That is what I was basing Ebonhawke on. Considering this smaller size and land mass I am thinking 15th Century Constantinople is a good example (as it was constantly under siege by the Turks). So, basically 35,000 to 50,000 (most likely on the smaller end).

Mental Paradox,
Not sure why you were called that, though I would say most people use that term do not understanding what the actual historical beliefs & ideology behind it were. Most of the posts I have read of yours seem fine to me, though I too consider myself pro-Human so I am probably biased in favor to what you say. A lot of the treaty provisions appear pro-Charr at first glance, but are designed to pro-Human long-term (like controlling Inner Sea trade by playing the Legion biases off each other & separating Kryta & New Ascalon so New Ascalon will devote it’s full resources toward her own growth). I am trying to give New Ascalon breathing space, so it can rebuild it’s strength. Most of the areas I choose appeared to be unclaimed by the major races. Though, Draxynnic points out that assumption may be wrong.

I 100% agree with your Jennah comment, and think I mentioned something similar previously. To be honest the Humans have really been cursed with a series of weak leaders since the Searing. So, by statistical odds, they should get a good one in the next generation or two. However, it does appear the game developers have a thing for the Charr Lore wise, even though they are the less played race and frankly their transformation to “acceptability” strains the belief of reality. In the same breadth they also appear to get a sick pleasure by artificially keeping the Humans down. Almost 2 Centuries of weak and/or unknown (basically everyone after Salma; who despite being in a Golden Age could not re-take any former lands) rulers in Kryta that is not even statistically possible.

DanF Griffin.3876:

Tobias Trueflight,
Your Elona liberation plan is brilliant! I think that would work, there are undoubtedly a few Noble families and High ranking Seraph Officers of Elona descent in Kryta. So, getting together a council or task force to put this together should be easy. Not to mention no one would even question if Kryta were assembling a larger force and logistics tail than what was necessary. People would just assume the Humans were over-planning the whole thing.

Frankly, it’s been on my mind for a while now and it’s a lot better than trying to reach Cantha via boat. And besides, there is . . . another way:

Hit Primordius’ minions and try to retake the Central Transfer Chamber, and in the process get the asura gate to outside Kamadan running again.

Then you have a gate to move materiel through. The trouble is this drops any spearhead into Istan, and with less likelihood of getting off the island to mainland Elona as opposed to coming down through the Crystal Desert and Desolation. But this way it’s possible to go for a more symbolic victory by taking the Sunspear Great Hall.

In regards to New Ascalon I agree, this depends a lot on the good will of the Charr. The within 10 years comment was to the fact is 10 years later New Ascalon would have a larger population base, and would be able to serve as a true launching point for an expedition instead of just a pass through.

In ten years the area you set aside as “New Ascalon” is still going to have a larger chance of more charr force near it than humans, unless humans can diplomatically push for it. In which case, there’s little need to discuss military options at all and more to figure out how they can bargain for the territory.

Personally, I think it’s obvious how to get the charr to allow the humans to start a New Ascalon. Send the Ebon Vanguard to the Sentinels and earn the goodwill by fighting the Branded. Heck, even get them to fully take over operations near Ebonhawke in the Brand. To get the charr’s respect, proving you have the will and the ability to fight is essential.

Once you have their respect and a good record for fighting mutual enemies intently, there’s a much better base for wanting to start New Ascalon . . . in ten years’ time. Not through having the numbers to do it, not through having gathered the might of many divisions of Vanguard, but through getting the charr to go “you know what, you’ve proven you’re willing to work with us, so we’ll trust you to keep that frontier safe”.

In regards to putting the Charr in a bind, I was working off the belief that the Ghosts would disappear in only the area within New Ascalon. Not within Ascalon as a whole. Basically, any lands New Ascalon controlled would become Ghost free, while the Charr are stuck with them.

But we know that’s not how it works. The Foefire Ghosts attack anyone.

As I stated in the opening posts the whole idea of New Ascalon to be founded upon a final peace treaty with the Charr, not to be carved out without the Charr’s support or permission.

Well, as I said, there’s no way it could ever be otherwise. If the humans were to try to seize the lands themselves by force or trickery? The charr, it is my opinion, would not hesitate to simply drop a hammer so big it’d make the Searing look like a backyard barbecue.

You’re right in that Spain and France were never technically united – in fact, that’s pretty much my whole point. Not being technically united did not stop them from acting in concert against another nation.

From a purely military perspective, splitting them does ensure that there are at least two human leaders involved in the decision process for both Kryta and Ascalon to go to war. This protects against a unilateral decision by a Krytan leader. However, it also removes the ability of a Krytan leader to rein in an Ascalonian leader who decides, for whatever reason (perhaps finding yet another magical deus ex machina) that it’s worth having a go.

From a political perspective… it’s ignoring the actual trends there. Currently, Ebonhawke and Kryta are united under a single leader (Jennah has the regency over Ebonhawke) so demanding that they cannot be so united is not only asking for a break in the current political status quo, but the same political status quo that lead to a treaty being possible in the first place. Meanwhile, the people of Ebonhawke seem to want to be independent should it be politically, economically, and militarily viable – if the charr leave well enough alone, then there is a good chance the separation will happen naturally. By contrast, if they make separation a stipulation of the treaty, then the presence of the stipulation might breed resentment among Ebonhawkers and make them want formal unification just because the charr forbid it.

Casus belli is a funny thing, in that it only really matters according to how third parties react, and it’s hard to predict what that will be. My gut feeling is that the norn won’t care about it, nor particularly will the asura, and regardless of how hostilities might restart, a resumption of hostilities between charr and humans will just cause them to roll their eyes and continue as they did before the treaty. Sylvari strike me as caring more about the inherent rightness of a situation than about what may be written on a piece of paper – the violation of a treaty might lead them to believe that humans were at fault for the war, but on the other hand, if they see no evidence that a unification was intended as a prelude to attacking the charr, they might agree that such a provision was unjust and support the human side. The Pact is the real wildcard here, as they’re probably the major group on Tyria that would be most inclined to respect the specifics of a treaty – however, even they may be more concerned with preventing war in general than caring about treaty violations, so rather than hitting the humans with a big hammer, they might be more inclined to encourage the charr to just let it go… and then manipulate human politics to ensure that a human leader that’s inclined to use that power to resume hostilities doesn’t arise.

When it comes to territory… my gut feeling remains that if the southern Blazeridge remains unsettled by humans or charr, there’s a reason for it. They may be inhospitable (or at least, not hospitable enough to be able to form the basis of a nation from) or they may be inhabited by so many aggressive creatures that trying to exercise control over it would cost more than its worth. Consider that, after all, during Ascalon’s military height it preferred to expand north – that suggests that when Ascalon was a major power it still preferred to fight against the charr to take territory than to expand south. There’s probably a reason for that, and while fighting the charr for land is no longer a practical option, claiming the Blazeridge may be no more practical.

Regarding strength of rulership…

Jennah, to me, strikes me as actually being a strong leader who is restricted in what she can do due to internal politics and enemies. The earlier years of Queen Elizabeth 1’s reign probably make for a good analogy – she’s generally regarded in history (although like everything not without disputes) as a good leader who did the best with a very bad situation, and Jennah seems to be doing much the same. Perceptions of weakness are a result of Caudecus being willing to sacrifice Kryta’s well-being in order to weaken Jennah’s image.

In terms of scale – yeah, it is pretty clear that things are actually bigger than shown ingame, but we’re still seeing major powers that only have one city and an assortment of towns, and we DO have some information on which to base estimates, such as how long it takes to cross certain regions.

In the past… my impression from Sea of Sorrows is that Kryta was indeed stronger before the rising of Orr – discussion of the war in that book (while it was never focused on) indicates that the front lines certainly weren’t at the walls of Ebonhawke as they were in Ghosts of Ascalon, and the charr were being hit hard enough that they were attempting peace offerings to try to make the war stop while they were still ahead. The Great Tsunami, however, was a big hit to Kryta’s power – they lost about half their land area, including their most populous settlements (not just Lion’s Arch: the region of the Temple of Tolerance in D’Alessio Seaboard was developed enough to probably be a city as GW1 depicts them (with the exception of Kaineng), just in an explorable rather than being an outpost. The area around the temple in Riverside definitely seems city-ish by GW1 standards. Both regions were apparently destroyed by or soon after the tsunami.

Tbh, I don’t see why human territorial expansion has to be land-based. We have airships now. Can’t we just find non-occupied land to colonize?

Well, there are a lot of lands apart from Ascalon. Orr is the big one – it’s under Pact jurisdiction now, but at some stage I expect humans are going to start having an interest in reclaiming that land, and there’s not really much good reason for the other races to block them. There are also indications that Jennah has an interest in annexing northern Brisban and possibly the Silverwastes.