Guild Wars 2

Correct me if I’m wrong but as apparently the gods have fallen silent (during the opening videos I believe) I wonder how Wintersday will work with the annual Grenth vs Dwayna battles for the seasons.

Could be an interesting one, can’t wait to see what Anet pull out of the hat.

I seriosuly doubt any religion would just dumb a holiday, holy event, wahtever…actualy scrap that, i doubt any tradition would everget dumbed just because things change. Just look at real world easter, christmas, halloween and other semi religious holidays…

Which would mean humans just kept everything going themselves…

I agree with Strang, in that Halloween was carried on even without the Mad King’s influence for 250 years. The Holiday survived without the influence from the Mists and so I see much the same for Wintersday.

My prediction is that we’ll actually see maybe a strong influence by the Sons of Svanir on events, or just the minions of Jormag in general as opposed to Grenth. However at this point anything we say is purely speculation, but I can’t wait for December regardless of what happens!

The human gods left Tyria (went silent?) in 0AE. During Guild Wars 1 (starting at 1070 AE) the gods were not present either. And yet we had the GvD battles. The gods would not work for other races either, only humans believe in them.

Enadeag.1265:

The human gods left Tyria (went silent?) in 0AE. During Guild Wars 1 (starting at 1070 AE) the gods were not present either. And yet we had the GvD battles. The gods would not work for other races either, only humans believe in them.

This is only half true. The Gods departed Tyria and returned to the Mists at 0AE. The Exodus was merely their physical presence on Tyria however they still had a large influence on the events of the game in GW1. We saw their Emissaries freqently and even helped them in their respective realms of the Mists (Fissure of Woe and the Underworld). The Silence implied by the Gods is that their Emmisaries no longer seem to answer our prayers and their realms appear shut off to our actions despite some of them seeping back into Tyria (Underworld beasts). However largely the Domains of Anguish, Fissure of Woe, and Underworld remain inaccessible, and it no word has been heard from the Gods for some time.

Thanks Ratphink. Did’t know that, I always though that the gods left and went silen at 0AE.

Well, when it comes to gods and such we honestly have no clue what exactly will take place around Wintersday. I mean I did not expect to be fighting against the Mad King Thorn this year at all, but the storyline that they set up makes sense, and also makes me wonder what the heck my character in GW1 was thinking when helping him (other than ToT BAGS!)

I can see the charr and norn loving the holiday just for drinking and roasting food (remembering how much the norn loved things in the Eye of the North). But further on than that it’s anyone’s guess.

mad king thorn was absent from 250 years of halloween, wintersday likely evolved from its origins into something else.

Even charr “celebrated” Wintersday – or rather, knew of it. But they hated the holiday (or seemed to – not sure if it’s Wintersday itself, its ties to the gods, or just simply winter), while the norn enjoyed it simply because it’s a celebration. I cannot see a holiday that lasted for possibly over a thousand years to end just because the annual battle between mother and son stopped, especially since the seasons still change.

Wintersday is more than a battle between Grenth and Dwayna. It is the Tyrian New Year – quite literally so, since Day 1 of the year is the first day of spring (if we were to use our calendar for when thei Wintersday is, it’d be in mid March – on the Spring Equinox). The end of winter and the beginning of spring. It exists with or without the gods’ influence, and will probably be celebrated more in a style befitting our New Years rather than our Christmas/New Years/Hedgehog Day combined.

Is it confirmed that people still celebrate Wintersday? It’s entirely possible that the holiday faded into obscurity in the intervening centuries.

Well we know they do celebrate it still, as proven by the polearm behind Rytlock’s desk in Blood Tribune Quarters.

The comments above are correct in pointing out that Halloween survived just fine (in fact it became the holiday Halloween, instead of just Mad King’s Day, while Thorn himself was absent) – and I’m certain that humans have continued to celebrate Wintersday. But it is also true that the presence of the avatars of Grenth and Dwayna, and their supernatural minions, was the centrepiece of Wintersday in GW1. I too am very interested in what happens for it this year, given that the gods don’t show themselves even in avatar form these days.

I won’t be surprised if there’s a plot similiar to the Mad King’s one, potentially one which could continue to develop each year. It seems like they have plans for the Six Gods, and the information in GW2 seems to go some way to demistifying them and explaining their nature and origin more, rather than just saying “they’re gods, end of story.” We’re learning more about them, notably Grenth, so maybe Wintersday will reflect an ongoing story involving them.

If there’s anything to speculation about unrest in the Underworld (Mad King aside, though he’s certainly a symptom) that may play out through Wintersday too – although I doubt they’ll abandon the Grenth/Dwayna, winter/spring dichotomies. It’s also possible that we’ll have no gods (at least at first), just very determined cult followers making their own conflict!

I really hope they do something more general. The Human god’s are completely uninteresting to any of the other races, other than the Charr that want to kill them or the Sylvari that are curious about them.

They’re uber powerful beings that brought Humans to the world, not creation deities that need to be part of all race’s lore.

Asura have an interest in the Six too, in that they view them to be part of the Eternal Alchemy. So a holiday focused around the gods may prove to be eventful for asura too. And then there’s just the general festivities that norn enjoy, regardless of gods.

Every day is winter’s day in hoelbrak…

The gods don’t need to be part of other races’ lore to be the centrepiece of Wintersday, nor do I think they should be. Wintersday could be a Lion’s Arch centred thing – it seems likely that humans in LA would spread the festival, since the people there seem happy to take up any excuse for a party. I mean, many non-Christians partake in Christmas festivities to some degree or other, such things become community festivals.

I certainly wouldn’t expect Wintersday decorations in the Black Citadel (although maybe one guy in the gladium quarter, haha) – but I would expect to see it celebrated in Lion’s Arch. Even the charr would be up for eggnog and snowball fights, surely!

I’d imagine, just like Christmas in real life, that people who aren’t even religious will celebrate the act of present giving, getting together to drink, to feast, etc.

Granted, real life isn’t a great example, as we don’t celebrate Christmas with giant talking cats, but still.

The difference is one of the playable races was directly pissed on by the Human gods for their favored people. I don’t think Charr would want anything to do with a holiday that still has connection to them. “Still” being the key work in that sentence. Keep the holiday, but the deity aspect will hopefully be removed.

^ the charr celebrated a holiday about a human king.

BrunoBRS.5178:

^ the charr celebrated a holiday about a human king.

Hurting a Human king. That’s the difference.

Make Wintersday about smacking around the avatars of the Humans gods and that’s perfectly fine to me.

Also, let’s hope there are more than just rehashes of GW1 holidays. Those are all human-centric. Let’s see some holidays based around the Asura coming the surface, or the day the first Sylvaris were un-podded.

Lande.5782:

BrunoBRS.5178:

^ the charr celebrated a holiday about a human king.

Hurting a Human king. That’s the difference.

Make Wintersday about smacking around the avatars of the Humans gods and that’s perfectly fine to me.

Also, let’s hope there are more than just rehashes of GW1 holidays. Those are all human-centric. Let’s see some holidays based around the Asura coming the surface, or the day the first Sylvaris were un-podded.

mad king’s day is more of a celebration of Thorn than anything (this is the first time he actually shows up and we fight him instead of playing around with him). then it became halloween, which is about… well, the same things halloween is in the real world.

Technically, it seems to originally be Halloween – celebrated because it’s the day in which the barrier between Tyria and the Mists is thinnest. E.g., on Halloween, spirits from the Mists have a better chance of returning (much like the original belief of Halloween, before it became a holiday of dressing up and getting candy). I doubt this came to be due to Thorn’s death and/or return.

Mad King’s Day – as it’s known by humans – is, as far as we know, merely an alternative name for the holiday as Mad King Oswald Thorn returned on that day in the past. I do not think it celebrates Oswald himself – he’s just been a big part of the celebrations. And, after all, it’s only when he’s able to force through the seals keeping him from returning more than just Halloween that he’s seen as a threat after death.

^ the flavor text of the halloween update seems to very strongly imply that it started with mad king’s day, and moved on to become halloween.

and correct me if i’m wrong, but i have yet to see any charr lore that gives a crap about the mists. they’re not even fond of magic.

the closest you get is some random charr bragging about the mist war (which, if i had to guess, they care about simply because it’s an excuse to wage war on something) or hanging by the PvP lobby.

Smodur the Unflinching, during one of the Iron Legion storylines, uses the Realm of Torment as a replacement for hell (“What in the Realm of Torment […]”). While the High Legions aren’t outright interested in the Mists, they don’t seem to be ignoring it. They recognize it as the afterlife, at the very least, and are very much interested in ghosts, so Halloween would probably be more of a “red alert” time for charr. The Mists just isn’t an immediate issue for them.

i just meant to say that they don’t quite care about the mists enough to make a holiday about it where they celebrate the freaking thing.

and their interest in ghosts is relatively interesting, and the ghosts they’re interested in is exactly the kind of ghost with no ties to the mists (on the contrary, they’re trapped in tyria).

I don’t think it’s a holiday about the Mists; the Mists are just there, they’re a thing, a part of the world. Just like there is such a thing as charr scholars (they’re not all brutish warriors, naturally!), I would imagine the charr are at least aware of the Mists and the powers within them which can influence the world (Six Gods included, although they’re safely ignored these days). Heck, at the very least I would imagine someone investigated whether the Mists could be weaponized!

Anyway, the Mad King Thorn stuff has been strongly tied to Lion’s Arch, appropriately so since he was always linked with that city in the past. Kryta got stuff because it was his kingdom, but Halloween barely has a presence in Divinity’s Reach itself. I think it’s safe to assume most festivals will be centred on Lion’s Arch, unless they introduce racial festivals as Lande suggests (which I would love to see!).

Curuniel.4830:

I don’t think it’s a holiday about the Mists; the Mists are just there, they’re a thing, a part of the world. Just like there is such a thing as charr scholars (they’re not all brutish warriors, naturally!), I would imagine the charr are at least aware of the Mists and the powers within them which can influence the world (Six Gods included, although they’re safely ignored these days). Heck, at the very least I would imagine someone investigated whether the Mists could be weaponized!

Anyway, the Mad King Thorn stuff has been strongly tied to Lion’s Arch, appropriately so since he was always linked with that city in the past. Kryta got stuff because it was his kingdom, but Halloween barely has a presence in Divinity’s Reach itself. I think it’s safe to assume most festivals will be centred on Lion’s Arch, unless they introduce racial festivals as Lande suggests (which I would love to see!).

it’s either a holiday about the mists, or a holiday about king thorn. i think it’s the latter, konig seems to think it’s the former.

of course charrs know about the mists, but why would they celebrate halloween? i think it’s the result of what lion’s arch became, and they just adopted the human holiday (which had lost the original meaning by the time lion’s arch was refounded anyway), much like many christian holidays are just pagan holidays christians adopted.

Certainly I agree, I’d be extremely surprised to see Citadel charr celebrating Halloween, but in Lion’s Arch if the humans started having a fun festival I’m sure the locals of all races would get into it

The whole ‘time when the veil between Tyria and the Mists grows thin’ thing, I think of much like a solstice – an observable natural occurance, which is likely to be marked in some way, but doesn’t have to be. Mad King Thorn is really just local colour in Lion’s Arch, but presumably the veil grows thin all over, and potentially other stuff could happen (though I don’t think we have any evidence that it does).

For Wintersday, spring will transition to winter whatever happens – with the gods portrayed as they are I’m not even sure how much influence they really have over the transition (although I’m sure there’s some connection to their domains of power). Characterising it as Grenth vs. Dwayna is a local human thing, so we’ll see how that works out.

I’m wondering if we’ll see Freezie and/or Rudi during Wintersday.

Not just that the gods are apparently silent, I would be interested in seeing how they translated this event, purely based on the human gods, so that all cultures can embrace it.

With the emissaries & avatars of the gods falling silent and not actively participating in Wintersday with humans, one could assume the holiday simply mutated much like Mad King’s Day stayed around without Thorn showing up in the mortal realm. The candy & costumes still obviously persisted without him.

One might also assume that the less god-centric Wintersday became over the centuries, the more the general public embraced it as simply a festival to celebrate the changing of the winter season. Even in GW1, while the Norn & Dwarves accepted the human gods in terms of their existence they were not worshipped as such. But that did not stop them from joining in the festivities.

I think the charr can find reasons to celebrate Wintersday as the different races come together and the human gods are no longer directly involved in the holiday. That’s why I wouldn’t expect to see Grenth vs. Dwayna like we did in GW1, but I’m sure it may be replaced with something just as silly but still represents the “fight” between winter & spring.