Would it be good to use ghosts against ED?
There’s a theory that suggests that most of the Ascalonian ghosts are actually just magical energy constructs. It would explain why they are constantly reformed, yet continue to do the exact same thing over and over without learning or adapting to their circumstances. They are not true ghosts; they are magically created echoes of Ascalonian souls, imprinted with the words and actions of the fallen as they died in the Foefire.
A few Ascalonian ghosts, however, are true ghosts empowered by the Foefire’s energy, such as Adelbern and his champions. But regardless, since these ghosts are powered by Magdaer’s energy, they might be nothing more like delicious walking magical snacks for the Elder Dragons.
As Zaxares said, it’s probably a bad idea. Mainly because of this: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Notebook
Besides, even though it’s possible on a small scale how would you do it on a large scale?
also, this isn’t lotr, we don’t have isildur’s, err, adelbern’s heir
Fix what you have before you build something new
There’s a theory that suggests that most of the Ascalonian ghosts are actually just magical energy constructs. It would explain why they are constantly reformed, yet continue to do the exact same thing over and over without learning or adapting to their circumstances. They are not true ghosts; they are magically created echoes of Ascalonian souls, imprinted with the words and actions of the fallen as they died in the Foefire.
The theory is actually that all ghosts are magical constructs (or more accurately their physical bodies are magical constructs). A foefire ghost isn’t more or less of a ghost than a ghost pirate (just that the foefire ghost is cursed to forever haunt Ascalon).
Assuming that Kralkatorric did a speed snack with the brand, then the ghosts are resistent to dragon devouring.
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
@CureForLiving: That can’t be true though, as we have evidence of ghosts that came into being without being exposed to the Foefire or from beings who had no magical abilities whatsoever. (Ghost pirates in Harathi Hinterlands, for example.) My theory, therefore, is that only a handful of the Ascalonian “ghosts” are actually true ghosts (i.e. the spirits of the deceased who remain behind in the world), those who have reason to remain behind, or who had the magical power to transcend their deaths. These are beings like Adelbern, Bria and so forth. The multitudes of peasants and soldiers that we battle are not true ghosts, merely echoes of dead spirits.
I could be completely wrong, of course; as a GW1 player, I admit to having some bias in hoping that the majority of the Ascalonian people are NOT trapped in some hellish afterlife through no fault of their own. This way, the only true ghosts that remain behind are those who, on some level, WANTED to remain in the world.
@Horst: Kralkatorrik only briefly passed through Ascalon on his way to the Crystal Desert, searing the ground beneath him with his golden breath and forming the Brand. He didn’t spend any time actually fighting or eating the ghosts, so we really have no way of knowing if he could permanently destroy the ghosts by eating them.
I could be completely wrong, of course; as a GW1 player, I admit to having some bias in hoping that the majority of the Ascalonian people are NOT trapped in some hellish afterlife through no fault of their own. This way, the only true ghosts that remain behind are those who, on some level, WANTED to remain in the world.
All evidence points towards that, unfortunately. We see several unnamed mobs in Ascalon talking to each other, so they’re more than simply magical copies. In the AC story intro video we see the foefire stripping the souls from soldiers.
The Movement of the World states (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World):
The stories told by the Charr (and the few, scattered human survivors of the battle) speak of a gout of sword-shaped flame rising from the highest tower in the city. After a white, burning heat swept the city streets, the dead and defeated Ascalonian guard arose once more, their spirits animated by the power of Adelbern’s sword. In the face of this spectral resistance, the Charr were forced to abandon the city.
Since that time, the spectral soldiers have guarded the ruins of Ascalon City and the eastern frontier. They resist the Charr, but do not communicate with living soldiers from Ebonhawke. Their spirits are only memories, the lingering presence of a past that cannot let go of the present.
So there is some ambiguity, but it comes down to the nature of ‘spirits’ and the usage of poetic language.
Ghost lore in GW2 is actually somewhat complex and there is a fair amount of it scattered across Tyria. Whether it be the lore of the Foefire curse (and the prophecy to lift it), the manner in which Bellinda came back, the White Mantle/Shining Blade in Brisban, the ghosts in the God’s Lost Swamp, the three AC paths or the events in the Shattered Keep (and that’s just the ones I’ve listed, there are a lot more), it’s hard to figure out a set of rules for how ghosts do and don’t work in GW2.
I know at least in an event in the Shattered Keep you can work with Yorix, an asura, who is looking at ways to lift the curse from the ghosts there and hopefully use them to fight the Orrian undead. If the event succeeds Captain Ferrine (and only her alone – she was the target of the event) will help defend Fort Cadence from the Ash Horizon attack. Her crew remained cursed (I think Yorix’s machine was just a proof of concept, not a real attempt to turn the whole keep’s ghostly residents into allies).
So we actually have used a co-operative ghost against an Elder Dragon. I also vaguely recall one of the final Personal Story missions in Orr has you seek out the aid of a ghostly crew of norn who died in Orr. I think it was to find a map, but I also vaguely recall them fighting with you in the event.
With the Rytlock/Foefire plot I was really hoping some of the ghost researchers in Tyria would be brought back into the story. It would be interesting to see Yorix, Detha and other ghost researchers consulted on the Foefire curse, to see if they can help solve it (through magical or scientific methods) or at least look into how they might utilise the ghosts on a large scale.
I’m guessing the main problem with using ghosts is that they persist in Tyria for a reason and that reason is nothing to do with Dragons. Existing ghosts might defend somewhere very well, but you might not get any advantage from that whilst the ghosts are there. Creating a new army of ghosts for your own purposes seems immoral, considering you might be committing the spirits to many ages of suffering and conflict against an elder dragon that could be effectively immortal.
There might not be a corruption problem with the ghost themselves but if ghosts are tied to a place, artifact, or person then the dragons can certainly corrupt those.
I don’t think it’d be a good idea to try to lure an Elder Dragon to the middle of Ascalon – I doubt the charr would like that, and I doubt that such a thing would be an easy undertaking. And you can’t do the flip – take the Foefire ghosts to an Elder Dragon – because they relive the same day over and over, so presumably they’d just return to Ascalon, not be capable of being pulled out (otherwise, I think the charr would have done such already).
On the other hand, Jormag has devoured Owl Spirit, possibly Eagle, Ox, and Wolverine Spirits too, and tried via proxy to do the same to Minotaur Spirit – and has an interest in the Mists which is home to spirits. Something tells me using spirits against him… isn’t a good idea.
And Zhaitan was capable of enslaving a few ghosts (see: King Reza), so I doubt ghosts would have worked well against him.
Non-Foefire ghosts appear to be as vulnerable as anything else. Foefire magic does seem especially potent against the Elder Dragons – Ghostfire bombs and Ghostbore Muskets that’re powered by them are used in Orr were far more powerful against Risen/Zhaitan’s corruption than anything else seen, and the ghosts appear to be the one thing not corrupted by Kralkatorrik. And if you take this implication a step further, the Mysterious Seed was given Foefire essence in the first plant, which may explain its semi-docile nature. Foefire… may be a counter-agent to dragon corruption.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
The foefire ghost remained in the brand while anything else was transformed and the corruption the dragons do is kind of devouring. Jormag devours flesh and replaces it with ice. Zhaitan devoured souls, the reason he never raised/used true undead. Kralkatorric seems to devour ?anything? and replaces it with crystals. Anything in the brand (even plants) was turned into crystal, except foefire ghosts. This happened while creating the brand (see Almorra Soulkeeper’s warband). Maybe the foefire ghosts share the same “immunity” like sylvari.
Sadly even this is limited, because there are some small areas in which the ghost should still exist (I don’t know a possibility to finally destroy them), but they are simply not there (which is either design oversight or planned).
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
All evidence points towards that, unfortunately. We see several unnamed mobs in Ascalon talking to each other, so they’re more than simply magical copies. In the AC story intro video we see the foefire stripping the souls from soldiers.
But are those TRUE conversations? Or simply magical constructs repeating a message over and over like a record? For example, you can meet the ghost of Captain Calhaan who recites the exact same words he says to the PC back in the Great Northern Wall mission, and the person he’s talking to also says the exact same line the PC said. Since our GW1 PC’s most likely did not die in the Foefire, how did the ghost Calhaan’s talking to know what to say? That made me think that the secondary ghost, and possibly even Calhaan himself, are simply like a holographic recording replaying a momentous scene taken from Calhaan’s memories when he died in the Foefire.
The foefire ghost remained in the brand while anything else was transformed and the corruption the dragons do is kind of devouring. Jormag devours flesh and replaces it with ice. Zhaitan devoured souls, the reason he never raised/used true undead. Kralkatorric seems to devour ?anything? and replaces it with crystals. Anything in the brand (even plants) was turned into crystal, except foefire ghosts. This happened while creating the brand (see Almorra Soulkeeper’s warband). Maybe the foefire ghosts share the same “immunity” like sylvari.
Sadly even this is limited, because there are some small areas in which the ghost should still exist (I don’t know a possibility to finally destroy them), but they are simply not there (which is either design oversight or planned).
Also the Branded could turn others into one(the Ogre Chieftain) but we never see them corrupt any ghosts.
so presumably they’d just return to Ascalon, not be capable of being pulled out (otherwise, I think the charr would have done such already).
Well Spectre Warband does routinely attempt to ghostbuster them some Ascalonians and put them into a big holding-cell (although that hardly ever works in the long term due to Flame Legion interference). But theoretically you could suck up a bunch of foefire ghosts put them in a big tank and hurl them at a dragon. Although the effectiveness is questionable.
All evidence points towards that, unfortunately. We see several unnamed mobs in Ascalon talking to each other, so they’re more than simply magical copies. In the AC story intro video we see the foefire stripping the souls from soldiers.
But are those TRUE conversations? Or simply magical constructs repeating a message over and over like a record? For example, you can meet the ghost of Captain Calhaan who recites the exact same words he says to the PC back in the Great Northern Wall mission, and the person he’s talking to also says the exact same line the PC said. Since our GW1 PC’s most likely did not die in the Foefire, how did the ghost Calhaan’s talking to know what to say? That made me think that the secondary ghost, and possibly even Calhaan himself, are simply like a holographic recording replaying a momentous scene taken from Calhaan’s memories when he died in the Foefire.
But they’re still called spirits and not holograms or copies. Although what spirit means in the context of GW2 is still debatable. We also know of one foefire ghost who was able to break free from the curse (not sure what her name was… the one in the logging area that tries to kidnap the charr children/kittens) implying that much of the quirky behavior is as a result of the curse.
But other than to be argumentative, I really have no evidence either way.
Jormag devours flesh and replaces it with ice.
Eh… no, Jormag consumes magic from his victims. Per Edge of Destiny:
“Over the next hundred fifty years, the voice seduced more norn, and they joined the cult, becoming the Sons of Svanir. They believed they were drawing upon the ancient voice, but in fact it was drawing upon them, gaining the power to rise.” Page 221 about Svanir/Jora, the forming of the Sons of Svanir, and Jormag’s rise.
Jormag’s corruption takes the physical appearance of slowly covering the body in ice, and turning said body into ice (until there’s just ice and bone left), but what Jormag is devouring is the magic of an individual he corrupts – same as other Elder Dragons.
Zhaitan devoured souls, the reason he never raised/used true undead.
Risen Wraiths appear spectral like; Crusader Aliyana proves that Zhaitan doesn’t consume all souls of those he corrupts as does Romke and his crew who’s risen bodies we fight during Romke’s Final Voyage. And finally we see King Reza was trapped within the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan, as was the Keeper of the Shrine’s soul
Zhaitan does not consume souls. He either ignores them (in the apparent case of his grunt minions), or he imprisons them within the risen (in the apparent case of the sapient ones).
Kralkatorric seems to devour ?anything? and replaces it with crystals. Anything in the brand (even plants) was turned into crystal, except foefire ghosts. This happened while creating the brand (see Almorra Soulkeeper’s warband). Maybe the foefire ghosts share the same “immunity” like sylvari.
Anything physical got corrupted. The water shows no current case of being corrupted – not outright at least. Whether the Foefire ghosts are unique in this case, or any ghost was overlooked – the latter more likely due to the presence of Rashenna’s spirit (who’s appearance has unknown triggers) – is really unknown. They can’t have the same “immunity” like the sylvari as the sylvari die when touched by corruption and per the Pale Tree’s dialogue to sylvari players during Rallying Call it seems like the Pale Tree is giving that immunity to all dragon corruption (though those in favor of the sylvari=Mordremoth minions interpret this, oddly imo, to be that she’s only preventing Mordremoth’s corruption despite the general usage of dragon corruption).
Sadly even this is limited, because there are some small areas in which the ghost should still exist (I don’t know a possibility to finally destroy them), but they are simply not there (which is either design oversight or planned).
What such areas?
But are those TRUE conversations? Or simply magical constructs repeating a message over and over like a record? For example, you can meet the ghost of Captain Calhaan who recites the exact same words he says to the PC back in the Great Northern Wall mission, and the person he’s talking to also says the exact same line the PC said. Since our GW1 PC’s most likely did not die in the Foefire, how did the ghost Calhaan’s talking to know what to say? That made me think that the secondary ghost, and possibly even Calhaan himself, are simply like a holographic recording replaying a momentous scene taken from Calhaan’s memories when he died in the Foefire.
The case with Calhaan has always felt like a thorn jabbed into the side of GW1 players, like those two Watchmen spirits were meant to replace the Prophecies hero(es).
A lot of ghosts talk as if they’re on the day of the Searing, or the day of the second Charr Invasion (much like Calhaan) or appear near their tombs (such as Ralena and Vasaar). This has led me to believe that the Foefire not only entrapped the souls of the living, but the souls of the dead in Ascalon too. The many Restless Spirits and Spirits of the Fallen we saw throughout Ascalon in GW1. Savione from Ghosts of Ascalon severely hinders this – as does Rashenna and Watchman Pramas – but all the others do seem affected. Kind of reminds me of the Prophecies manual lore on souls:
“When a hero dies, his spirit goes to one of two places: either it is buried with the deceased body, forever trapped inside the rotting flesh and rancid bones of the corpse, or it is released into the Rift.”
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
The corruption some dragons are spreading needs some fuel to go on. I wonder why such a great creature would invest so much magic while it’s only desire is to devour it. The corruption itselfs seems to devour the body and replaces the devoured parts with common dragon magic.
Zhaitan → rotten flesh
Jormag → ice
Kralkatorric → crystal
Primordus → stone & fire
Mordremoth → plants
(DSD → water)
Those devouring processes still happen while the (based on dragon different) creature is already corrupted. All this is based on the assumption that anything in Tyria is based on magic. To avoid the “because magic” point it can be divided into several base magics (about which we know barely). Just to try an example: a rat and a stone of equal size contain probably the same amount of magic at all, but the stone is just made of earth magic while the rat is made of life, earth, water and some other stuff.
Zhaitan is a great example for selection. While he probably doesn’t devour souls/spirits, he corrupts just those who had a soul prior (assuming that undead usually don’t have one). The moment Trahearne casts his small undead army, he tells us that Zhaitan cannot take them over, because they’ve never been alive and that is something that’s well shown with some cases about the dragon himself with using additional risen to get his undead body parts moving (eye and mouth). The abominations show that no full body is needed and the risen could be crafted from parts of prior living bodies. I omit the wraiths at this point, because someone pointed out that they shouldn’t be able to live on Tyria (they belong to underworld? any more info might be helpful).
Zhaitan had a lot magical sources around him and didn’t really use them. He guarded the Artesian waters that they can spread the corruption. He didn’t much the temples away while they are full of magic. Pyrite island omitted and he slept close to a bloodstone which also wasn’t worth to get consumed. For a natural disaster who doesn’t care which magic he devours, he is very selective.
Jormag drew power from the Svanir to rise in your comment, but that isn’t neccesarily the same magic he likes to devour. The icebrood are turned against their will and turned into his mindless army which is still steady turned into ice in a longer progress. I cannot say very much about Jormag, especially how he devours (the corruption is the only way visible).
The Pale Tree seems fallible or is deliberately lying. It cannot tell that it protects the sylvari against every dragon and on the hand tell that Mordremoth can corrupt them. The resistance that I talk about is they might be existing in another mist (one of the copies of Tyria) while showing up in our world making them incorruptible from our side while they are still corruptible from the mist side, but there is still no information around how the sylvari birth really works and I doubt the Pale Tree tells.
The missing ghosts need to get reinvestigated, mismatched some dates that I could verify through wiki. Well, I shouldn’t investigate at all, since I never played GW1, the story isn’t really present and all important NPC know more than they tell.
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
Jormag also tricks grawl and ogre to worship him to draw power from them. It seems to gain power from mental worship. The Sons of Svanir mostly have their own will, just could choose to become Icebrood to empower themselves sometimes.
Actually the Blue Orb is quite interesting, it could protect livings from Zhaitan’s power, could it be the Deep Sea Dragon’s artifact? Maybe the Dragons’ power could be used counter each other as a chain?
The point where we stole the orb was full of risen krait afterwards in the personal story. Now there are no risen anymore, just normal krait. I wonder if they pulled another orb and what did they do with the risen there.
The pact uses equal magic for their smaller forts in Orr while the orb should just be in Fort Trinity. And these smaller forts use usually thorn vines along with the blue glowing magic.
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
The point where we stole the orb was full of risen krait afterwards in the personal story. Now there are no risen anymore, just normal krait. I wonder if they pulled another orb and what did they do with the risen there.
The pact uses equal magic for their smaller forts in Orr while the orb should just be in Fort Trinity. And these smaller forts use usually thorn vines along with the blue glowing magic.
Some arts also shows Zhaitan’s Risen fighting Sea Monsters. Maybe those are DSD’s minions?
@Konig: Hmm, that’s something I actually hadn’t considered; that the Foefire might not just have created the ghosts from humans who were alive at the time of the Foefire, but also those who died long before it. If so, that might explain how some ghosts, as you pointed out, seem to have conversations that logically would have taken place a long time before the Foefire actually occurred.
Either explanation works, I guess. We’ll just have to wait and see if more information on this ever becomes available.
the dead and defeated Ascalonian guard arose once more, their spirits animated by the power of Adelbern’s sword
Their spirits are only memories, the lingering presence of a past that cannot let go of the present
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World
So it seems both the living and the recently defeated dead were risen in the foefire.