Guild Wars 2

There’s a few things that bother me about GW lore, not plot holes as such but things which seem illogical or too much of a coincidence to not be deliberate. Amongst them are these two:

1) Why would the Cataclysm that sank Orr also turn its people into undead under the command of the Lich?

That’s a very odd combination of effects for one spell and I couldn’t see any reason anyone would create such a thing. For this reason I had a hard time grasping that the Lich was lying when he said the Sceptre of Orr was needed to command the undead. I assumed that during (or shortly before) the Cataclysm he had turned himself into a Lich through a separate process and then set about creating an undead army for himself.

2) Zhaitan was sleeping right under Arah. A place which, when he awoke was perfect for him to start building an army but didn’t get that way until thousands of years after he went to sleep.

At first this doesn’t seem all that unusual, most of the other dragons did the same thing. Primordius (fire) is close to the planets core, Jormag (ice) is in the far north, Mordremoth (plants) is in the jungle and the Deep Sea Dragons is…well in the deep sea. Kralkatorrik doesn’t need to be as selective since it just needs living things with physical bodies to corrupt.

But Zhaitans needs are harder to meet. It needs lots of corpses to build it’s army and those don’t tend to stay in the same place for 10,000 years. And yet when it awoke it was directly under probably the biggest graveyard in all of Tyria.

A while ago it finally occurred to me that actually if you throw these two together it makes sense.

All that’s known about The Lost Scrolls which contained the Cataclysm spell are that they were found by the Old Gods when they first came to Arah, hidden by them below the city and revealed to Vizier Khilbron by Abaddon.

What if the scrolls contained dragon magic? Something created by the dragons or their minions to prepare for their reawakening. A spell that sinks a continent and turns all the people there into undead would be a perfect for Zhaitan.

What if one of the secrets Abaddon was supposed to guard was the existence of the dragons, their locations, powers and eventual re-awaking? Then later, after his fall, he decided to use this knowledge for his own advantage.

This would be yet another ret-con for the original Prophecies storyline, but I think it would explain a lot.

Although it also raises the question of why Kormir didn’t warn us that the Great Destroyer was just the start, since she absorbed all of Abaddons power and would have known everything he did. Maybe that would be a bit too helpful?

I don’t know where you get that the cataclysm would have made the undead – everything implies it just made the orrians, well, dead, and that Khilbron raised them as his army. They are attacking White Mantle specifically even before Khilbron has the Scepter. Similarly, Zhaitan didn’t need undead to make risen, it needed dead. Dead bodies are everywhere there’s life, especially where there’s civilization, and Orr was already plundered of bodies by Khilbron. I’d reckon Ascalon would have been a more bountiful body pile for Zhaitan, if it wasn’t for the Foefire.

1) Technically, there’s never been confirmation that the undead were a direct effect of the Cataclysm spell. The lore says that rumors claim that the undead wander due to their instant death – that they don’t realize they’re dead. If this is truth, then Khilbron simply took control of these undead that were formed not from the spell itself, but from dying so fast from the spell.

If the rumor isn’t true, then do we even know that the Cataclysm made the undead? The Corsairs settled the islands rather easily between the time of Prophecies and Zhaitan’s rise, after all, and we know that Khilbron didn’t bring the whole modern population of Orr with him – which he would have if he had control of them all.

The Scepter of Orr seems to have given him command over souls – it did for us, during Sanctum Cay, and the only creatures he summons after the mission are Shock Phantoms, aka souls (specifically, he summons the souls of the Stone Summit we literally just slew – or so it seems), and supposedly the Scepter gave him command over the titans, which are in essence, twisted and tormented souls.

2) I don’t know where you get “[the Lost Scrolls] were found by the Old Gods when they first came to Arah, " because this is not proven or even hinted, nor is it “all that’s known”. What’s said is that they predate the Bloodstone – however, this is in context to the original Bloodstone lore – that the Bloodstone was created in 1 BE/Year 0; this means that all that’s known about its history is that it “predates the retracting of the gift of magic” and that it most likely “was made after the gift of magic was given” – in other words, the most likely date of creation for the Lost Scrolls was the year 1 BE, if not the Year 0 (aka 0 AE).

“What if the scrolls contained dragon magic? Something created by the dragons or their minions to prepare for their reawakening. A spell that sinks a continent and turns all the people there into undead would be a perfect for Zhaitan.”

Minions – and especially champions – of the dragon wouldn’t need artifacts to use their or their masters’ power. Drakkar didn’t need an artifact to corrupt Svanir into the Nornbear; the Great Destroyer didn’t need an artifact to create an army of destroyers; Glint didn’t need an artifact even after being freed to make those Crystal Spiders and Crystal Guardians.

The dead bodies sticking around for so long after the sinking of Orr is another oddity.
So, was Zhaitan killed with the cataclysm then corrupted by his own magics or was it just a release of his power. The long term preservation of bodies could be attributed to his leaking magics, possibly due to the shift in his nature.

As in, when the city was thriving magic was a common and wondrous thing. After the destruction and ascent from the depths it became a corrupted land.
Instead of wonders by living beings the undead wonder aimlessly until willed.

Where did you even get that it would need dead bodies?

As far as I understood Zhaitans corruption, it would turn living things into “Risen”, not classical undead, but living things corrupted by the Dragon of Undeaths power.

Zhaitan could have awoken, say, right next to Lions Arch and would have turned it’s people into Risen, they didn’t need to be dead for that. In this it works as Kralkatorriks Corruption.

Or am I mistaken? I forgot who said that, but I’m pretty sure it’s stated ingame.

Forgot this last time: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Abbadon-first-champion-of-Zhaitan/first#content

Recent discussion on a similar topic.

The dead bodies sticking around for so long after the sinking of Orr is another oddity.
So, was Zhaitan killed with the cataclysm then corrupted by his own magics or was it just a release of his power. The long term preservation of bodies could be attributed to his leaking magics, possibly due to the shift in his nature.

As in, when the city was thriving magic was a common and wondrous thing. After the destruction and ascent from the depths it became a corrupted land.
Instead of wonders by living beings the undead wonder aimlessly until willed.

In order:

Why is it odd that dead bodies remain in place? Would dead bodies usually just up and move themselves?

It was confirmed in an interview that the Cataclysm had no effect on Zhaitan.

Those corrupted by Zhaitan always appear rotten, even if they’re newly dead – in the books, you see that people don’t even hit the floor before becoming risen, and their skins instantly turn grey and their blood putrid and bile. In certain PS story steps, such as Against the Corruption, we see individuals corrupted coming back within minutes just as rotten as others. It would not be hard to believe that Zhaitan’s corruption can restore rotten flesh just as well as rot good flesh, given that Elder Dragon corruption always creates a physical change.

The notion of Orr becoming corrupted after the Cataclysm isn’t an off one, either, however. There are several things hinting to the Cataclysm – or another magic – having a lasting effect. Freezing waters, constinuously cloudy skies, etc. that are even mentioned upon in GW2-modern Orr. But this doesn’t mean the Cataclysm had an effect on Zhaitan, per se.

The notion of body preservation and land corruption post-Cataclysm was discussed a bit in this thread not too long ago.

Ishmael.6740:

Where did you even get that it would need dead bodies?

As far as I understood Zhaitans corruption, it would turn living things into “Risen”, not classical undead, but living things corrupted by the Dragon of Undeaths power.

Zhaitan could have awoken, say, right next to Lions Arch and would have turned it’s people into Risen, they didn’t need to be dead for that. In this it works as Kralkatorriks Corruption.

Or am I mistaken? I forgot who said that, but I’m pretty sure it’s stated ingame.

It’s shown throughout the game and books that Zhaitan almost always kills first and corrupts second.

The exception to this are Kellach and Necromancer Rissa, potentially those who wore the amulets created by Rissa.

You are correct in saying that risen are not traditional undead, but the reason why “undead” and “risen” are interchangeably used by Tyrians is because Risen are created 99.99 with a lot of 9s% from dead bodies. Just like how those two terms and “Orrian” are used interchangeably because the source of risen is Orr.

We see that he can corrupt living beings – but he doesn’t seem to “prefer” it. Kellach only became corrupted via an artifact. Possibly Rissa as well (via the Dragon Crystal). In all other cases beyond those two, those who become corrupted are killed first.

I have never seen it said anywhere that Zhaitan would corrupt living beings directly. In fact, everything I’ve seen points to the opposite: that Zhaitan’s corruption only spreads to living beings through indirect means (be they plants or wildlife). The most common cases being when wildlife devour risen corpses, and they become toxic and spread diseases to the other plants and animals nearby (there’s a heart detailing all of this, but we see these effects throughout Bloodtide Coast and Sparkfly Fen).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Why is it odd that dead bodies remain in place? Would dead bodies usually just up and move themselves?

Themselves no. Underwater denizens, yes.
Are Risen skeletons a thing?

I feel it’s unlikely that Khilbron had anything to do with Zhaitan, or that Abaddon’s plans did either. It seems to me that it was purely coincidence that both Khilbron AND Zhaitan had power over undead things. But I do find it strange that Abaddon, or subsequently Kormir, was silent about the Elder Dragons. I would only be a little surprised if the other Gods completely failed to research the planet they settled and simply didn’t know that ultra-powerful deathbringers were sleeping just underfoot. The dragons were already dormant when they arrived. But I would have figured a God known for knowing what isn’t normally known (and pretty much anything that is) would definitely have some information on them. And from what I gather, Abaddon might not have been that bad of a guy before the whole rebellion thing and being imprisoned. He was willing to give magic to the people, but not a little forewarning about an enormous extinction event? What reason did he (she/they) have for keeping it hidden? That just seems rude.

Aro.8275:

Themselves no. Underwater denizens, yes.
Are Risen skeletons a thing?

You make it sound like not a single corpse was disturbed, in an entire nation of corpses and their graveyards (remember, even ancient kings and princes were turned risen – who’s to say more commoner corpses were not corrupted too?).

And no, there isn’t a single skeletal risen, interestingly. The closest there is to that would be Risen Wraiths, which appear as a twisted skeletal upper body (or just skull + forearms) tied together with ether.

Squee.7829:

But I do find it strange that Abaddon, or subsequently Kormir, was silent about the Elder Dragons. I would only be a little surprised if the other Gods completely failed to research the planet they settled and simply didn’t know that ultra-powerful deathbringers were sleeping just underfoot.

" Ancient documents, found now in the Durmand Priory’s collection, reveal accounts passed down by other races such as the powerful Seers and even the human gods themselves. "

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prosperity%27s_Mystery

We have recent indication that the Six Gods did, in fact, know of the Elder Dragons.

They just didn’t tell humanity.

They didn’t tell humanity a lot. And why should they? They are gods, and humans are mortals.

Squee.7829:

And from what I gather, Abaddon might not have been that bad of a guy before the whole rebellion thing and being imprisoned. He was willing to give magic to the people, but not a little forewarning about an enormous extinction event? What reason did he (she/they) have for keeping it hidden? That just seems rude.

Maybe giving magic to the races was his hope to help counter the Elder Dragons, as giving magic to the world would mean giving the Forgotten’s magic too. It would also give the races of the world an experience with magic, so it wouldn’t be entirely foreign when the Elder Dragons wake.

Then again, the Elder Dragons wake up due to high levels of magic in the world. So the gods’ actions (as we’ve learned it wasn’t just Abaddon; he just gave the final and biggest amount of magic) inevitably sped up the otherwise potentially eternal hibernation of the Elder Dragons.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It’s shown throughout the game and books that Zhaitan almost always kills first and corrupts second.

The exception to this are Kellach and Necromancer Rissa, potentially those who wore the amulets created by Rissa.

You are correct in saying that risen are not traditional undead, but the reason why “undead” and “risen” are interchangeably used by Tyrians is because Risen are created 99.99 with a lot of 9s% from dead bodies. Just like how those two terms and “Orrian” are used interchangeably because the source of risen is Orr.

We see that he can corrupt living beings – but he doesn’t seem to “prefer” it. Kellach only became corrupted via an artifact. Possibly Rissa as well (via the Dragon Crystal). In all other cases beyond those two, those who become corrupted are killed first.

I have never seen it said anywhere that Zhaitan would corrupt living beings directly. In fact, everything I’ve seen points to the opposite: that Zhaitan’s corruption only spreads to living beings through indirect means (be they plants or wildlife). The most common cases being when wildlife devour risen corpses, and they become toxic and spread diseases to the other plants and animals nearby (there’s a heart detailing all of this, but we see these effects throughout Bloodtide Coast and Sparkfly Fen).

Ah, yes, I misunderstood that and thought, the corruption would “kill” the victim to make it risen. Thanks for clarification.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

~Snip~

Then again, the Elder Dragons wake up due to high levels of magic in the world. So the gods’ actions (as we’ve learned it wasn’t just Abaddon; he just gave the final and biggest amount of magic) inevitably sped up the otherwise potentially eternal hibernation of the Elder Dragons.

No, that’s not entirely true, the Elder Dragons were destined to wake sooner or later, their prior awakenings have been mentioned via ‘stories’ from the ancient races, Jotun, etc., but most modern people assumed them to be just that, stories and not based on fact…something they are finding out just how wrong they were. So in essence the Elder Dragons would have awoken one way or another, it was inevitable.

I’m also inclined to believe the Gods had absolutely no reason at all to think that the dragons would not wake up again eventually. And if preventing their awakening was actually something they were concerned about, they might have pushed to seal more magic, if not all of it (provided they had the means to do so.)
As for the “why should we tell you, you’re just a mortal” bit, it makes sense, but why would the Gods invest so much time and energy into humanity just to throw them to the wolves. Or dragons. Whatever. I get that they want humans to stand on their own, but seriously? NO warning or insight? Now the Gods seem less like benevolent deities bringing humanity into the magical world of Tyria to live lives of enjoyment, and more like cruel experimenters tossing people on top of voracious all-powerful monsters just because “screw it. I’m a God. What are you going to do about it”?

Since Konig has a fondness of presenting only his views on a particular topic, I’ll leave these links here:

First on whether the Cataclysm affected Zhaitan and vice versa:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Theory-on-the-Sylvari-and-Mordremoth/first#post4279704
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Theory-on-the-Sylvari-and-Mordremoth/first#post4281744

Then some points to be made on why risen still have flesh (technically, there should only be skeletal risen — or if Big Z’ can’t reanimate those: no risen at all).

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/11-327-year-old-skeleton/first#post4300399
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/11-327-year-old-skeleton/first#post4301520

And I wholeheartedly agree with Squee’s assessment. This “And why should they? They are gods, and humans are mortals.” is as much a terrible argument as a horrifying attitude from a group responsible for the welfare of an entire species — who incidentally made quite the attempts to sustain and protect their chosen.

Personally, I believe the gods knew about the dragons, but not when they would wake or where they were hibernating. Back before the Exodus they might have had a the schemes along which they would’ve guided the world to prepare it for the coming, final war with the Elder Dragons, but then the violent conflict with Abaddon made them realize something that forced them to pull out of the Tyrian sphere. Simultaneously, they might have been confident in the notion that it would still be millennia (more than 1.1-1.3) before the beasts would rise again, giving them ample amount of time to settle the matters that were keeping them busy in the Mists while still aiding humanity remotely. At the same time, Tyria and its dominant species would’ve also had the means to develop and advance on their own, reaching the point where they could’ve combated the dragons effectively without divine help — if worse came to the worst.

And that is where they made a mistake. The dragons could not consume all the magic of the world last time and might have been left pretty hungry when they fell to sleep. However, this also meant they would rise sooner, before dawn, to “check what was in the magically-refilling fridge.” (Probably the big release of the Bloodstone’s contents before the Exodus and the constant leaking of the separated pieces after the volcano had spewed them out did facilitate their awakening.)

At the same time, instead of the world coming together in unity and progress, the species were driven apart and ravaged by an enraged and maddened Abaddon; the Jade Wind, the Searing, the Cataclysm, the titan invasion, Shiro’s return, Nightfall, and who knows how many other machinations. It left Tyria ill-prepared to face the Elder Dragons when they woke, while the gods miscalculated and whatever is keeping them occupied for so long has only gotten more serious in the last couple of centuries as they pulled even farther away from Tyria.

Addendum: as to why they built their city atop an Elder Dragon and why they had the human kingdom that they intended to lead all the others settle down there, I reckon the answer is simple: Arah and Orr were the last stand for the elder races. It was somehow protected from dragon attacks. When Glint made all the survivors disappear — regardless of how she did — Zhaitan insidiously moved in and fell asleep there. By the time they returned, they had no idea that an Elder Dragon was onto them and they got away in the nick of time. The gods and humans arrived, and the latter decided that humanity’s bastion should be built atop the safe haven that resisted the Elder Dragons’ influence throughout an entire cycle. Oh the irony…

Zaklex.6308:

No, that’s not entirely true, the Elder Dragons were destined to wake sooner or later, their prior awakenings have been mentioned via ‘stories’ from the ancient races, Jotun, etc., but most modern people assumed them to be just that, stories and not based on fact…something they are finding out just how wrong they were. So in essence the Elder Dragons would have awoken one way or another, it was inevitable.

The existence of stories of past awakenings does not mandate the existence of future awakenings.

Angel McCoy had an interview and had forum posts in which she stated that the Elder Dragons rise based on the level of ambient magic in the world. If the level of ambient magic in the world never hits that point where the Elder Dragons wake up, then naturally, it is possible that they would never wake. Hence my previous use of “potentially” – as in, possibly, maybe, a chance of occurring – not definitive or absolute.

Similarly, if magic were to enter the world at a rate equal or greater to the Elder Dragons’ consumption, it is possible that they will never fall asleep naturally.

Squee.7829:

I’m also inclined to believe the Gods had absolutely no reason at all to think that the dragons would not wake up again eventually.

-snip-

I never said that the gods had no reason to think the dragons would not wake up, I said it may be possible to prevent the Elder Dragons from ever waking up by keeping the level of magic in the world low.

The rest of your post actually gives a mentality that the gods indeed did not think the Elder Dragons would rise again – perhaps they thought the beasts dead, rather than hibernating, or they put in countermeasures that simply never activated (perhaps due to the Cataclysm, Searing, Jade Wind, and/or Nightfall). Or maybe the sylvari are those countermeasures.

Or they did think the Elder Dragons would, eventually, wake, and they simply forgot to mention it.

Thalador.4218:

Since Konig has a fondness of presenting only his views on a particular topic, I’ll leave these links here:

-snip-

While in my posts I only stated my view, I, in fact, posted the original interview of Jeff Grubb talking of the Cataclysm’s effect on Zhaitan so that people could form their own opinion.

Similarly, I posted the second thread you linked, stating:

“The notion of body preservation and land corruption post-Cataclysm was discussed a bit in this thread not too long ago.”

So there, I never even brought up my stance on that topic – I merely stated it was discussed before, and linked the thread (the very one you linked).

I doubt it was intentional, but this part of your post sounded very condescending to me, and it was insulting given that I gave every opportunity for others to form their own opinions by citing the source, or providing older discussions in which multiple viewpoints were given.

And is it not commonplace for people to post only their side of the topic in a discussion? Very few people – not even you, truthfully – give anothers’ side of the argument unless they are intentionally playing devil’s advocate (and very few people do even that in the lore forum).

Thalador.4218:

And I wholeheartedly agree with Squee’s assessment. This “And why should they? They are gods, and humans are mortals.” is as much a terrible argument as a horrifying attitude from a group responsible for the welfare of an entire species — who incidentally made quite the attempts to sustain and protect their chosen.

My point in that was more of “the gods will not tell humanity everything, so maybe this was one topic that the gods just never thought ‘hey, we should tell them about this’.” Pure conjecture, in other words.

Thalador.4218:

Probably the big release of the Bloodstone’s contents before the Exodus and the constant leaking of the separated pieces after the volcano had spewed them out did facilitate their awakening.

Of this I have no doubt.

Which is why I highly detest the claim of Varra Skylark in Arah Jotun path, where she claims that the Elder Dragons’ awakening happens every 10,000 years, alongside the birth of a star that happens every 10,000 years. Why, specifically, does this make no sense?

In the previous dragonrise, the Elder Dragons fell to sleep before they could consume all magic – and thus fell to sleep early. If the Bloodstone was left alone, they no doubt would have kept hibernating for a much longer time, because there would still not be enough food to dictate their rise. If they were to rise, it would be an incredibly short time of being awake. But the Bloodstone was tampered with, and large quantities of magic were put forth into the world – this in turn sped up the time of awakening.

So this slowing and then hastening of the levels of magic in the world just happened to be the exact same length as the time between each Elder Dragon rising?

That’s just very hard to swallow. Unless the lore provided in interviews by Angel McCoy, namely lines such as:

“When the dragons have consumed enough and thus reduced the world to a low level of magic, they go back to sleep. From then on, the magic leaks from them, back into the world at a reasonable rate. Eventually, it builds up in the world again, and the dragons awaken again to tip the teeter-totter back in the other direction.”

This is just one of many recent developer posts that indicate that the Elder Dragons’ wakening cycles is dictated by the level of magic in the world, rather than a specific amount of time passing like the Reapers from the Mass Effect series arriving every 50,000 years irregardless (makes me wonder if there were ever any times in which the Reapers showed up to find no significantly advanced civilizations).

As such, if the dragonrises are dictated by level of magic, then that is one hell of a coincidence for the time between this and the previous dragonrise to be the exact same as between the previous two dragonrises. It is just as hard to believe as the jotun existing for ~30,000 years if not more.

Thalador.4218:

Addendum: as to why they built their city atop an Elder Dragon and why they had the human kingdom that they intended to lead all the others settle down there, I reckon the answer is simple: Arah and Orr were the last stand for the elder races. It was somehow protected from dragon attacks. When Glint made all the survivors disappear — regardless of how she did — Zhaitan insidiously moved in and fell asleep there. By the time they returned, they had no idea that an Elder Dragon was onto them and they got away in the nick of time. The gods and humans arrived, and the latter decided that humanity’s bastion should be built atop the safe haven that resisted the Elder Dragons’ influence throughout an entire cycle.

An interesting hypothesis. There are indeed indications that Arah existed before the Six Gods arrived on the world: the existence of the Altar of Glaust, and the Orrian History Scrolls mentioning “stones of Arah” for when Dwayna first stepped foot from the Mists. One would not have to go far to turn Arah into a city made by the Forgotten, and only a bit further to turn it into a “last bastion of the elder races”.

Though I suspect the last bastion was the Eye of the North. Seems to have been overlooked by Jormag, and seemed to have been a place to spy on the Elder Dragons’ champions (EotN visions), though the latter may have been merely that the PC was focused on that threat.

Personally, I think Varra Skylark’s claim is wrong, but for different reasons.

Namely, Varra assumes that events on Tyria cannot influence the stars. In real-world astrophysics, this would be true, but we’ve seen cases in Guild Wars previously where events relating to Tyria have influenced the stars – the raising of the Celestials, for instance. So it’s possible that while some stars are distant objects unaffected by events on Tyria, others are closer and their appearance and configuration can change according to happenings in Tyria. Thus, the birth of the new constellation was, in fact, triggered by a a dragon nearing its point of awakening. (It’d be interesting, in fact, if it turned out that according to the lore, we happened to be looking through that telescope at the exact moment Caera entered the Machine. Do we have anything that places that event in time relative to Zhaitan’s fall?)

Regarding Zhaitan’s presence in Orr – my suspicion is that Zhaitan sensed that magic was flowing to Orr as the seers were sucking magic into the original Bloodstone, and flew to Orr to claim it… but when it arrived, the creation had been completed, Glint had hidden the elder races, and Zhaitan found nothing to eat so it went into hibernation instead.

There’s a rough guestimation possible with Ceara’s timeline, but the entire thing is highly confusing. She was born in 1302 and had spent: 8 years in the grove, 1 winter with Biegarth, 2 years with the charr gladium who’s name I can never remember, 3 years with the colleges (1 each, roughly), unknown time with Inquest, and “several months” with hylek before Omadd found her again. She turned 16 before landing an assistant position with Omadd, which would more likely be the beginning of her college years, placing her to be at least 19, likely 20, when she was approached by Omadd in Metrica – so likely at that time when she entered the machine. Roughly 1322 AE.

I am new to the game, so I am not rough on my point, but it looks a bit strange. There are likely 6 elder dragons and there are 6 human gods. The human gods arrived in Tyria after the dragon’s first reign has ended. (the old races were hidden) The gods brought a new race to an “empty” land. The race (humans) occupied most of Tyria’s lands and created a “soft point” for the dragon’s return since the food of the dragon (all 6 of them) is sapient life forms. Then it came out that the “old” races are not all eaten (alive). So the human gods learn about the magic that saved them from the dragons, and seal it away (remember what happened to the jotun ?), making the races vulnerable for the time of the “awakening”. Then the gods leave Tyria with no explanations just before the first dragon’s awakening… I don’t think the human gods serve the dragons; it may be possible that while having their main bodies asleep, the souls of the dragons (or their magic) create weaker less energy absorbing avatars, in the form of which they walk the land preparing it for their own return. And of course there is no unity. The dragons are not all friend. So they have their own power struggles between them. Like the old races had with the mursaat. That explains why the gods aided the humans to insure their survival and spread, but didn’t warn them of the coming cataclysm… (and with Kronmir, she used to be a mortal but she didn’t just fall to a dragon’s corruption, she became a goddess which means she turned into a dragon avatar, of course she had no chance to warn anyone, by the time Abanddon fell, she was no more herself.)

A few corrections for you Howk:

1. The Elder Dragons don’t feast on sapient life, but magic. Now, sapient life contains magic (as Oola says “we embody magic”), so sapient life is included, but it is not the lifeforms itself that is the food, but what it contains. If that confuses you, think of it like this: vampires feast on blood, not the person that they drain the blood from.
2. The Six Gods did not seal magic – this was a human myth that has been proven false. The Seers, one of the elder races that survived, sealed the magic (including that of the jotun). If in your comment “remember what happened to the jotun?” you refer to Thruln the Lost’s dialogue in Hoelbrak – it’s not very clear, but he’s giving a false interpretation of the events. Elder Thruln (norn personal storyline “Defeat your Ancient Foes”) as well as Priory scholars throughout Dredgehaunt Cliffs give the actual version of events that was first presented to us players in this lore article by ArenaNet – the short of it is that it was greed and pride that brought them to civil war and thus destroying their own civilization, not their magic being taken from them.
3. The sealing of magic did not seem to make the races vulnerable. The sealing was done before the Elder Dragons fell asleep – so the four (I say four because the mursaat seemed to have survived by fleeing the world) races that were hidden by Glint survived without their magic.
4. The Gods’ leaving actually is given with an explanation – both in-game (aka via NPCs) and out of game (aka via devs). And that explanation is basically: “it’s time for humans to fend for themselves, we gods cannot keep a watchful eye over you all the time.” Why this is so, is unclear, but that’s the explanation given.
5. It’s Kormir, not Kronmir.

Then there is no “conspiracy” story turn on the horizon I guess… =/
Gods are gods, and dragons are dungeon bosses. =P

Konig Des Todes.2086:

~Snip~

Which is why I highly detest the claim of Varra Skylark in Arah Jotun path, where she claims that the Elder Dragons’ awakening happens every 10,000 years, alongside the birth of a star that happens every 10,000 years. Why, specifically, does this make no sense?

In the previous dragonrise, the Elder Dragons fell to sleep before they could consume all magic – and thus fell to sleep early. If the Bloodstone was left alone, they no doubt would have kept hibernating for a much longer time, because there would still not be enough food to dictate their rise. If they were to rise, it would be an incredibly short time of being awake. But the Bloodstone was tampered with, and large quantities of magic were put forth into the world – this in turn sped up the time of awakening.

So this slowing and then hastening of the levels of magic in the world just happened to be the exact same length as the time between each Elder Dragon rising?

That’s just very hard to swallow. Unless the lore provided in interviews by Angel McCoy, namely lines such as:

“When the dragons have consumed enough and thus reduced the world to a low level of magic, they go back to sleep. From then on, the magic leaks from them, back into the world at a reasonable rate. Eventually, it builds up in the world again, and the dragons awaken again to tip the teeter-totter back in the other direction.”

This is just one of many recent developer posts that indicate that the Elder Dragons’ wakening cycles is dictated by the level of magic in the world, rather than a specific amount of time passing like the Reapers from the Mass Effect series arriving every 50,000 years irregardless (makes me wonder if there were ever any times in which the Reapers showed up to find no significantly advanced civilizations).

As such, if the dragon rises are dictated by level of magic, then that is one hell of a coincidence for the time between this and the previous dragonrise to be the exact same as between the previous two dragon rises. It is just as hard to believe as the Jotun existing for ~30,000 years if not more.

~Snip~

Just think about this for a moment…minus the Bloodstone, if the magic leaks from the Elder Dragons in a consistent and reasonable rate, then it could also make sense that the time between Elder Dragons reawakening would be reasonable and consistent. Saying 10,000 years is a good rough number, it might not be exactly 10,000 years on the dot, but say within 50 – 100 years plus or minus that 10,000. You would still round it off for simplicities sake,a and yes, the Jotun have been around for eons and eons, ~30,000 yrs doesn’t seem implausible, but it’s really all conjecture on our part without definite answers, part of the fun of these kinds of conversations.

Too many variables and unknowns.

How much magic did each Dragon consume while awake? Did one consume more than another?

What is the rate of magic leaking from the Dragons? Does it increase if they consumed more magic? Slower if they consumed less?

What happens to magic used in spellcasting? Or if magic is put into artifacts like signets, Krait obelisks, magical weapons (e.g., Scepter of Orr, Magdaer)? Does it decrease the amount of magic, or leave it unaffected in the eyes of the Elder Dragons?

Does some dragons rising before others lessen the other’s chances of rising/slows their rising?

Do they wake because of magic levels directly, or do they just set up a champion to check the levels after 10,000 years and if it is ‘sufficient’ they then rise? Unlikely given that Kralkatorrik rose with his champion working against him.

And that’s just the obvious questions to ask. But with so many variables, it makes it hard to believe the rising is truly constant – especially the time since the previous rise.

However, it has been stated that under normal circumstances they awaken in 50 year increments, with Primordus the first awaken, followed by the second 50 years later, the third 50 after that and so on and so on, except that with Scarlet breaching the Ley Line she caused Mordremoth to awaken much earlier than he normally would have by a significant amount.

I don’t think such has ever been stated, but rather that’s been the situation for this rise (and such a situation has been acknowledged even by devs) until Ceara and Mordremoth’s situation.

Keep in mind that Primordus was originally to wake up around 1078 AE, but his awakening was pushed back 50 years bu the defeat of the Great Destroyer. We have no clue if the other Elder Dragons’ awakenings were pushed back as well – and it seems unlikely they would have. And if they weren’t, then the “actual intent” would have ended up being that Primordus wakes 100 years earlier than Jormag.

And if you play the card of the Great Destroyer trying to do what Ceara succeeded in doing, well we have Drakkar doing the same thing (per Edge of Destiny – Drakkar took magic from the Sons of Svanir to hasten Jormag’s rise). Thus once more, the entire “the time of their awakening is set” falls apart. And it’s possible that either the Maw or the risen Giganticus Lupicus potentially doing the same thing for Zhaitan (the latter confirmed to be from the previous rise, the former having been highly active but unclear if undead shortly before Zhaitan’s rise); and Glint was, by all indications meant to do the same as well – but the Forgotten messed up Kralk’s plans there by giving her free will.

The Cataclysm clearly had something to do with the undead in GW1.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jacob_Salinger

What do you know about the Vizier?

Before the Searing, he was the advisor to the King of Orr in all matters arcane. When the Charr reached the borders of Orr, the Vizier delved into the sacred tombs beneath Arah, the City of the Gods. There he found and unfurled one of the forbidden scrolls. Reading the dark magic upon it, he managed to turn back the Charr invasion, but at great cost. The resulting explosion sank Orr into the sea and transformed the Vizier from a living being of flesh and bone into an undying lich, made of ichor and decay.

So it’s made clear that the spell DID turn him into the lich. The other undead could have been under similar effect as well. Abaddon and and Khilbron might not know it, but it indeed might have something to do with Zhaitan.

I don’t understand why Konig was keep denying what was made clear in GW1.

Says a Krytan that did not see such a thing personally. Anet’s made it a point that second hand information is fallible.

Lost Souls calls that account into question anyways, by having a corrupt (in the political sense) and powerful necromancer vizier in King Reza’s reign – was it Khilbron? Or someone else. Hard to believe a series of corrupt powerful necromancers capable of creating powerful armies of undead.

Why do I keep denying a connection? Because of the interview I already linked:

Thalador: How much did the Cataclysm affect Zhaitan? (His sleep, his estimated time of awakening, maybe even his life signs.)

Jeff Grubb: Not in the least. Zhaitan is unaffected by such small things as wrinkles in the world’s crust, and in the mere sinking of continents.

http://www.guildmag.com/guildmag-special-zhaitans-secrets/

Jeff Grubb is asked how much affect the Cataclysm had on Zhaitan. He responds with “not in the least”.

Then he goes on to say that Zhaitan is unaffected by “wrinkles in the world’s crust, and in the mere sinking of continents”.

He practically downright states that the Cataclysm’s only affect was the sinking of Orr itself. Hinting that the necromantic effect is not directly part of the Cataclysm.

Perhaps now you understand my stance.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Says a Krytan that did not see such a thing personally. Anet’s made it a point that second hand information is fallible.

Lost Souls calls that account into question anyways, by having a corrupt (in the political sense) and powerful necromancer vizier in King Reza’s reign – was it Khilbron? Or someone else. Hard to believe a series of corrupt powerful necromancers capable of creating powerful armies of undead.

Why do I keep denying a connection? Because of the interview I already linked:

Thalador: How much did the Cataclysm affect Zhaitan? (His sleep, his estimated time of awakening, maybe even his life signs.)

Jeff Grubb: Not in the least. Zhaitan is unaffected by such small things as wrinkles in the world’s crust, and in the mere sinking of continents.

http://www.guildmag.com/guildmag-special-zhaitans-secrets/

Jeff Grubb is asked how much affect the Cataclysm had on Zhaitan. He responds with “not in the least”.

Then he goes on to say that Zhaitan is unaffected by “wrinkles in the world’s crust, and in the mere sinking of continents”.

He practically downright states that the Cataclysm’s only affect was the sinking of Orr itself. Hinting that the necromantic effect is not directly part of the Cataclysm.

Perhaps now you understand my stance.

Actually, NPC’s words is valuable unless it was proved wrong by more official source or fact, which hasn’t been any. What does it have to do with him? It’s proved that the scroll did change him into the lich.

Zhaitan was affected/unaffected had nothing to do with “Did the Lost Scroll channel its power”. They are totally 2 different questions.

It’s actually not proven that the Lost Scrolls turned Khilbron into a lich. As you said, an NPC’s words are valuable, but not absolute. NPCs can be wrong, if there’s a – as you put it – “more official source or fact”.

This means that NPCs can be called into question by equally reliable sources, and we cannot be sure which – if either – is the situation. That’s the situation we have on our hands.

And the question does have to do with the Lost Scrolls’ power. Re-read Jeff Grubb’s wording. He’s describing Zhaitan not being affected by the sinking of Orr in response to whether the Cataclysm (aka the Lost Scrolls’ power) affected him.

Jeff Grubb gave a description of the effects of the Cataclysm (aka the Lost Scroll’s power).

And if you watch the intro cinematic for Arah story, it shows the Cataclysm – which is pieces of Orr breaking and sinking with blue light engulfing everything – no depiction of necromancy shown.

So Jacob’s words there are rather called into question, given that he never witnessed the Cataclysm himself.

Konig, I think the question is rather, did Zhaitan have an effect on the Cataclysm rather than did the Cataclysm have an effect on Zhaitan. It’s a big difference. Slow is saying that the Scrolls drew from the powers of Zhaitan thus effecting the whole of Orr but not Zhaitain himself. The question and answer is targetting effects on Zhaitan, which the answer was no to. Now that doesn’t mean there’s no room for his power being channeled through the Scroll or in the least effecting the scroll used. Its a matter of who affected who. Jeff said that the Cataclysm didn’t effect Zhaitain in any way, which is true (it was bordering more on he wasn’t harmed at all). Jeff never said that Zhaitan didn’t affect the scrolls by his presence being there. Besides if his power did seep through the Scrolls while being used, it would make more sense that he wouldn’t be in the least effected by the Cataclysm that was caused by it.

What Slow was saying is “the Cataclysm made the undead”. Which I was pointing out there’s evidence to counter Jacob’s statements – not full out proof, yet, but evidence against it.

I, in the beginning of this thread, in fact said it may be possible that Zhaitan’s power affected Orr after the Cataclysm. However, I strongly doubt that Zhaitan made the undead – be it just Khilbron or all. Why? Simply due to the fact that they appear and act vastly different from the risen.

There is no skeletal risen, but almost all undead in Prophecies were skeletal.

All risen are fanatically devoted to Zhaitan, as are all other dragon minions to their respective dragon, and this is shown even for when the Elder Dragon is sleeping, yet Khilbron shows no such effect.

The continued use of undeath in Orr seems more like a thematic choice by the developers rather than “it’s all connected.”

If they make it all connected, then at this point they’re retconing.

Of course, we could always just go by the History timeline of the Elder Dragons in the Wiki, http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Dragon as unreliable as that might be.
Primorus: 1120 AE
Jormag: 1165 AE
Zhaitan: 1219 AE
Deep Sea Dragon: some where in between Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik
Kralkatorrik: 1320 AE
Mordermoth: 1327 AE(by Scarlet Briar)

So it would seem that you’re closer to the truth Konig.