Guild Wars 2

First off all I love how Zhaitan looks and all. But I do think he is small compared to what we have to expect from other dragons.

The first reason is the fang of the serpent. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fang_of_the_Serpent
It shows that Jormag will be a lot bigger then Zhaitan, if this is just his fang.

Also Kalkatorix seems to be bigger to me if you look at his sleeping state: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Kralkatorrik.jpg

The only one that might be equal in size is Primordus:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Primordus.jpg

Off course it is pretty hard to compare sizes, specially cause GW1 and GW2 are two different games. But what do you think bout what we can expect from the size of the other elder dragons??

I think Primordus is even smaller than Zhaitan, but yeah, about the same size.

Jormag is probably HUGE or it looks like a D&D Beholder

Kralkatorrik may be bigger than we imagine, that image from the Charr Homelands may be just the tip oh his tail, who knows? But I would guess that Kralk is bigger than Jormag.

Mordremoth and “Bubbles” I have no idea, so far there is nothing we can even try to imagine.

Yeah, personally, after seeing the concept art for Zhaitan the in game model was disappointing, lol. I mean the image of this mountain sized monster with airships attacking it left quite a bit of expectation compared to the reality.

I dunno… part of it, I think, is also the scale of everything going on. The airship you’re on when Zhaitan shows up is the size of Fort Trinity, and he never comes even remotely close to it. It’s kinda funny, in the sad way, but the best shot for scale we have on him is this (cut to the 1:50 minute mark to avoid serious weirdness), where you can see he pretty much stretches from the Shipyard to the Gates of Arah. Also this, which I believe came from a datamine. You can see that Teq (and if you’ve stood up against his feet, you know just how big he is), even accounting for his entire wingspan, is only the size of a single one of Zhaitan’s wings.

TL;DR: Zhaitan really is quite big, enough that I could see him having a fang the size of Jormag’s if he had a mouth. The problem is you never get a chance to see how big- Arah story screwed up that aspect of the fight too.

I was aware, during the battle, that it appeared a Tequatl was similar in size to one of the heads coming out of his mouth, but I couldn’t tell if it was distance effecting me or not. I’m glad to know I was right. Still, as massive as he is, he is still a disappointment compared to the concept art, however impossible the concept art may have been to duplicate in a battle scenario.

Considering what that combat scenario ended up being, it really wouldn’t have been any more ridiculous.

Yeah, he’s actually quite big, but since a chunk of him is shot off before we even get close to him, and he’s far away when we attack him, he seems smaller.

It’s one fight I hope they redesign at some point, but I’m worried how they’ll do it. If they tie it into a living story release, I’m not gonna be a massive fan of, “Surprise, he wasn’t really defeated!”.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

It’s kinda funny, in the sad way, but the best shot for scale we have on him is this (cut to the 1:50 minute mark to avoid serious weirdness), where you can see he pretty much stretches from the Shipyard to the Gates of Arah.

“Serious weirdness”? But that…you don’t understand…it’s a metaphor…um…

Okay, I still don’t quite know what some of that’s supposed to mean. But I remember a lot of people being upset by the “spoiler reveal” of Zhaitan in that trailer.

If they intend to keep the same scale, I don’t see how we could even fight Kralkatorrik.

Yeah Zhaitan is one of the biggest models in the game. I think in the making of book they talked about the difficulties of animating it. It’s the whole flying aspect of the fight that makes it hard to really grasp his scale.

I really hope they get a chance to redo that battle. :x

Zhaitan’s actually pretty large himself. Size comparison to his dragon-shaped champions. And we know how huge those things are – we are barely the size of their fingers! And they’re barely the size of its second biggest arm.

Keep in mind that 1) we only see him from a distance, unlike the fang (and who knows, maybe Jormag’s just bucktoothed ) and Kralkatorrik’s back, and we see him while on a ship that’s easily twice the size of all other airships if not far more, and thanks to how the cinematic pans, his size is more compared to the largest airship than to anything else; 2) Kralkatorrik’s back may be huge, but GW1 and GW2’s scaling is different, plus that’s likely the entirety of his back and probably part of the tail and neck as well; 3) Zhaitan’s bigger than the Primordus model

That size comparison really puts things into perspective. Zaitain is HUGE.

I wouldn’t be surprised if jormag’s tooth is bigger than his in game model.

That size comparaison is pretty impressive :O kitten you, optic illusion, I thought he was not that big.

JayMack.8295:

Yeah, he’s actually quite big, but since a chunk of him is shot off before we even get close to him, and he’s far away when we attack him, he seems smaller.

It’s one fight I hope they redesign at some point, but I’m worried how they’ll do it. If they tie it into a living story release, I’m not gonna be a massive fan of, “Surprise, he wasn’t really defeated!”.

Chances are it will be something like this since Tequatl only became stronger after his “death.”

I would not be surprised if the dragon we fought was just a decoy compiled of dead champs from the start, lol.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Zhaitan%27s_Size.png

Have you fought Teq? If so, look at this chart, and tell me again that Zhaitan is small… lol

Arius.7031:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Zhaitan%27s_Size.png

Have you fought Teq? If so, look at this chart, and tell me again that Zhaitan is small… lol

Konig beat you to it…he beat me to it…he beats everyone to it

/takes home first prize, grinning like an idiot, cuz it really does matter.

(for those who think that’s serious, ye be wrong)

Well, Konig is still the king of the Lore forum. I don’t think that was ever in dispute.

/nurses hurt feelings at being overlooked, plotting vengeance on the lore forum.

“First contact with the quaggans has gone according to plan…”

Warning: Very bad and very approximate maths incoming.

Im a Charr player, and the tallest size a charr can be is approximately 6ft 10, lets round that to 7ft, and if I had to estimate, I would guess Tequatl is about 10-15 full size charrs long. Meaning Teq is approximately 70ft long.

From the image that Konig posted about the size comparison between Zhaitan and Teq, I suppose Zhaitan is around 4 Tequatls long, meaning Zhaitain would be 280ft long. Pretty long.

However, official lore states Kralkatorrik is 1000ft long, lore also states Glint was 20x smaller then Kralkatorrik, meaning she was around 50ft, similar to Teq, which for a Dragon Champion, sounds about right, considering Teq, The Shatterer and Claw of Jormag are around the same size, give or take a few feet, maybe a dozen or two.

So yes, Zhaitan is like, not even 1/3 the size of Kralkatorrik. Pretty small in comparison.

I did something similar and came out with nearly 700 feet, so…

EDIT: Just did it again with a bit less approximation. Came out with 528ish feet long and 576ish foot wingspan

Ya. :L Sounds a bit more appropriate. I estimated the length of Tequatl, which probably threw mine so far away, and the fact I rounded by like, 0.2ft, and when thats multipled by large numbers, throws it off even further, but it still illustrated the point Zhaitan is minidragon.

Its a shame we cant compare Zhaitan’s wingspan with Kralk’s. Beacuse all we know about Kralkatorrik’s wings is that its possible for them to block out the sun when they’re open, and beacuse we haven’t seen Kralkatorrik’s wings, we cant even estimate.

Would the dragonbrand be any use for guessing the width of Kralk’s wings?? It depends off course a bit on how he actually created it. There are imo three options.

1: everything that was under his wingspan turned into the brand
2: everything that was udner his body turned into the brand
3: he breathed or farted something conelike and all that it hit was turned into the brand

I think it is the first:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3CdIjf9uHY

This video shows a shadow of him passing by and shortly later, anything that was touched by his shadow turned into the brand. So I think that the dragonspawn is as wide as his wings are

I don’t know that concept art can be taken as lore, persay. But as of now nearly any of those options have credibility, although I would say it’s far more likely that he breathed a cone-like magic rather than farted…

mercury ranique.2170:

Would the dragonbrand be any use for guessing the width of Kralk’s wings?? It depends off course a bit on how he actually created it. There are imo three options.

Even if that is the case, it’d be hard to get a figure. At first glance that’d make for quite a small Kralky- after all, the Shatterer’s wingspan almost reaches from edge to edge. However, distances in-game are generally accepted to be smaller than in lore- after all, it’s hardly plausible that you could walk from Blazeridge to Brisban in a couple hours. In that case the Dragonbrand may also be more narrow than it should, but we don’t know how big of a difference there actually is.

mercury ranique.2170:

Would the dragonbrand be any use for guessing the width of Kralk’s wings?? It depends off course a bit on how he actually created it. There are imo three options.

1: everything that was under his wingspan turned into the brand
2: everything that was udner his body turned into the brand
3: he breathed or farted something conelike and all that it hit was turned into the brand

I think it is the first:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3CdIjf9uHY

This video shows a shadow of him passing by and shortly later, anything that was touched by his shadow turned into the brand. So I think that the dragonspawn is as wide as his wings are

The Dragonbrand was created by his fiery breath, as shown in Edge of Destiny.

And then, as Aaron stated, distances in game – both games – are shorter than distances in lore. In Ghosts of Ascalon, it takes 3 days and nights of fast on-foot travel to go from Ebonhawke to Ascalon City – and they weren’t limited by the in-game mountain boundaries we are; they were able to go from Secluded Glen in Fields of Ruin (where they buried a killed member) straight to Plains of Ashford. So roughtly a straight line from Ebonhawke to Ascalon City is 3 days travel.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

mercury ranique.2170:

Would the dragonbrand be any use for guessing the width of Kralk’s wings?? It depends off course a bit on how he actually created it. There are imo three options.

1: everything that was under his wingspan turned into the brand
2: everything that was udner his body turned into the brand
3: he breathed or farted something conelike and all that it hit was turned into the brand

I think it is the first:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3CdIjf9uHY

This video shows a shadow of him passing by and shortly later, anything that was touched by his shadow turned into the brand. So I think that the dragonspawn is as wide as his wings are

The Dragonbrand was created by his fiery breath, as shown in Edge of Destiny.

That’s always seemed weird to me. Why breathe a continuous, unfaltering stream all the way south? Why isn’t Ebonhawke part of the Brand, when Kralky’s breath ripped through it too? Not to mention that in Edge of Destiny Kralky’s breath only corrupted the creatures and didn’t mess up the land- it took a very angry second pass at Glint’s Sanctuary to do that, and as a side effect it killed all of his minions caught in it.

EDIT: Nevermind, I just took a second look and the book itself is inconsistent on that last point. I’m inclined to chalk it up to an oversight on the part of Mr. King.

Kralk’s fiery breath didn’t hit Ebonhawke, a lightning bolt did. And iirc, it does mention that the land touched by Kralk’s breath twisted.

I was going to say, nothing ever stated that Kralkatorrik went over Ebonhawke, only that lightning from his storm shattered the wall of the keep, allowing his minions in. As to why a second pass over his minions would kill them, perhaps the concentrations of magic used the second time were high enough to have a negative effect on even those creatures he controlled? IDK.

Correct me if I’m wrong wasn’t it stated before GW2 came out that Zhaitan was actually one of the smaller (if not the smallest) of the Elder Dragons? Or were they referring to one of the champion dragons we fight when they said it was actually small compared to the other dragons?

All I recall from devs on ED sizes is that their champions (Shatterer, Tequatl – those two having been known at the time) were very small compared to the Elder Dragons themselves.

And that the Drakkar Lake beast was too small in their minds to be a proper Elder Dragon thus while originally being a possible Jormag, got changed mid-development to being a dragon champion.

Also very viable option, that wasnt zhaitan but something like his avatar.

Not very viable, actually. Caithe and Trahearne both saw Zhaitan in the flesh – the only ones to see him and live. And Caithe was there to confirm it was Zhaitan. Furthermore, her Wyld Hunt (and the PC’s if sylvari) is to kill Zhaitan – and she (/they) state it’s over after Victory or Death.

Still the book and the vigil cutscene is massivly different in my opinion. I visualize myself that if breathing it would be a conelike shape infront of himself that would touchdown before he actually passes. In the cutscene you see how his shadow first passes over and then the actually branding happens.

Guess once again Anet choose for the dramatic effect instead off following their own lore.

Unless he was looking down the whole time – very possible since no doubt his goal was to create an army of minions upon awakening.

Should be noted that Almorra’s retelling of the events in Ghosts of Ascalons matches the vigil cinematic. And nothing really prevents Edge of Destiny’s description to be different, honestly, should Kralk be looking down rather than forward.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

All I recall from devs on ED sizes is that their champions (Shatterer, Tequatl – those two having been known at the time) were very small compared to the Elder Dragons themselves.

And that the Drakkar Lake beast was too small in their minds to be a proper Elder Dragon thus while originally being a possible Jormag, got changed mid-development to being a dragon champion.

The models of tequatl in arah are smaller than the world boss in sparkfly.

Nihilus.3015:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

All I recall from devs on ED sizes is that their champions (Shatterer, Tequatl – those two having been known at the time) were very small compared to the Elder Dragons themselves.

And that the Drakkar Lake beast was too small in their minds to be a proper Elder Dragon thus while originally being a possible Jormag, got changed mid-development to being a dragon champion.

The models of tequatl in arah are smaller than the world boss in sparkfly.

No, they’re just farther away. You can break out of the map and find the corpses after the dungeon’s over.

Here’s a guardian for scale.

I love how they put so much effort into something we never really see, lol.

Zhaitan is very, very huge. I ripped dragon models (with textures) from gw2.dat and animated them in Cinema 4D; that picture of Tequatl’s and Zhaitan’s size on wiki is my render. If you guys want more renders of Zhaitan in comparison with other dragons (or with an airship we are fighting on with Zhaitan), you can tell me.

That model is really beautiful. Its really a pity that we cant see Zhaitan very well in the game. After his death, they could make an instance where we can walk on him or something like that, that would be wonderful

BTW: the model’s wingspan on wiki render is 446 metres. In comparison, model of human from game data is 190cm tall, The Bifrost is 205 cm tall and an asura is 124 cm tall (4 ft.) (from wiki: “an asura is usually about four feet tall”), so it sounds like its a real size.

Vyko.6953:

BTW: the model’s wingspan on wiki render is 446 metres. In comparison, model of human from game data is 190cm tall, The Bifrost is 205 cm tall and an asura is 124 cm tall (4 ft.) (from wiki: “an asura is usually about four feet tall”), so it sounds like its a real size.

Wow, if that’s the case my estimate should’ve been doubled. Any chance you could produce a comparison with one of the Pact’s normal airships? There’s one of those sitting at Fort Trinity, so it’d be easy to extrapolate from there what he’d be like in comparison to the player.

Also, really good work on that first picture! At the time you put it up on the wiki I was in the middle of fretting over how to figure out Zhaitan’s scale. It made my whole week!

Vyko.6953:

If you guys want more renders of Zhaitan in comparison with other dragons (or with an airship we are fighting on with Zhaitan), you can tell me.

I would love a comparison of the Shatterer, Claw of Jormag, Tequatl, and Shadow of the Dragon. As well as Zhaitan to the Glory of Tyria and normal pact airships.

Just for some good comparisons.

Hmmm, I wonder if this trick is possible to do with GW1? I’d love to see a comparison of Drakkar, Primordus, Kralkatorrik, and the Great Destroyer – and to see how much of Primordus and Kralk was rendered… Or Dhuum to Abaddon.

Vyko.6953:

After his death, they could make an instance where we can walk on him or something like that, that would be wonderful

Originally, it was to be visible in Arah explorable – likely at the PoI titled Zhaitan’s Rest. This was changed when they altered the model.

Vyko.6953:

BTW: the model’s wingspan on wiki render is 446 metres.

So Zhaitan’s likely to be the size of Kralkatorrik then.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Vyko.6953:

BTW: the model’s wingspan on wiki render is 446 metres. In comparison, model of human from game data is 190cm tall, The Bifrost is 205 cm tall and an asura is 124 cm tall (4 ft.) (from wiki: “an asura is usually about four feet tall”), so it sounds like its a real size.

Wow, if that’s the case my estimate should’ve been doubled. Any chance you could produce a comparison with one of the Pact’s normal airships? There’s one of those sitting at Fort Trinity, so it’d be easy to extrapolate from there what he’d be like in comparison to the player.

Also, really good work on that first picture! At the time you put it up on the wiki I was in the middle of fretting over how to figure out Zhaitan’s scale. It made my whole week!

Thanks! I havent found normal airship model yet, but Im searching for Shadow of the dragon now, so if I find that ship, il upload it here. Right now I can only render comparison with the bigger one. Will post it tomorrow!

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Vyko.6953:

If you guys want more renders of Zhaitan in comparison with other dragons (or with an airship we are fighting on with Zhaitan), you can tell me.

I would love a comparison of the Shatterer, Claw of Jormag, Tequatl, and Shadow of the Dragon. As well as Zhaitan to the Glory of Tyria and normal pact airships.

Just for some good comparisons.

Hmmm, I wonder if this trick is possible to do with GW1? I’d love to see a comparison of Drakkar, Primordus, Kralkatorrik, and the Great Destroyer – and to see how much of Primordus and Kralk was rendered… Or Dhuum to Abaddon.

Vyko.6953:

After his death, they could make an instance where we can walk on him or something like that, that would be wonderful

Originally, it was to be visible in Arah explorable – likely at the PoI titled Zhaitan’s Rest. This was changed when they altered the model.

Vyko.6953:

BTW: the model’s wingspan on wiki render is 446 metres.

So Zhaitan’s likely to be the size of Kralkatorrik then.

OK, tomorrow I will post comparison with all the dragons (if i find shadow of the dragon and texutre it) and with glory of tyria.

I was searching long ago for programs which can extract models from GW1 beucase I wanted model of Drakkar, kuuna and others, but it seems there is no program that works, and gw2browser doesnt work on gw1, sadly:/.

Oh, didnt know that its corpse should be in explorable arah..very pity it isnt…maybe they decided that Zhaitan will survive it so they removed its corpse?

Vyko.6953:

Oh, didnt know that its corpse should be in explorable arah..very pity it isnt…maybe they decided that Zhaitan will survive it so they removed its corpse?

Don’t think so. They even metnioned it would be in explorable Arah a couple months before release. It seems to me that when they changed Zhaitan’s model, they didn’t have enough time to put a ruined corpse of Zhaitan in (apparently the living Zhaitan and dead Zhaitan before the current model were different). You can see the old corpse in the very first GW2 trailer.

Also here

Vyko.6953:

Zhaitan is very, very huge. I ripped dragon models (with textures) from gw2.dat and animated them in Cinema 4D; that picture of Tequatl’s and Zhaitan’s size on wiki is my render. If you guys want more renders of Zhaitan in comparison with other dragons (or with an airship we are fighting on with Zhaitan), you can tell me.

That model is really beautiful. Its really a pity that we cant see Zhaitan very well in the game. After his death, they could make an instance where we can walk on him or something like that, that would be wonderful

BTW: the model’s wingspan on wiki render is 446 metres. In comparison, model of human from game data is 190cm tall, The Bifrost is 205 cm tall and an asura is 124 cm tall (4 ft.) (from wiki: “an asura is usually about four feet tall”), so it sounds like its a real size.

Comparison images would obviously be great, but I’m wondering..

I’m an illustrator and I’ve been trying to draw Zhaitan for quite a long while, and I’m having problems with some areas of him I just cannot find good reference images of. If you were to post closeup images of his right and left hands, as well as that weird area where his lower jaw should be and how that works, I would be eternally grateful. It’s just not easy to tell how his hands exactly look, and the in-game model has a blinding light coming out of his mouth that obscures everything.

I’m also a bit curious – is Zhaitan’s original model still floating around in the games data files anywhere, or did they yank it out entirely? Hmm. I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that it was in at some point due to it being visible on some old maps.

Oh, by the way, someone yanked Drakkar out of Guild Wars 1. Scroll down a bit.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/drakkar-lake-ice-creature-screens-t10201206p8.html
He mentions further down how he got it out of the game.

War isn’t won by biomass alone. :P

CHIPS.6018:

War isn’t won by biomass alone. :P

Nope, it’s won by magical laser cannons targeted to a specific energy signature.

Or, what they would rather have us to believe… Love, friendship, unity, and all that jazz.

Clearly you never saw the revamped version. Y’see, Trahearne got blessed with all the elements and motivated by the unified Pact’s will to fight on, he turned into Captain Sylvari and was stuffed into a cannon and shot out directly at Zhaitan – whom attempted to eat him like Jormag ate Owl, but choked on Trahearne’s sap, dying a pitiful death.

Then a tower fell on him.

Zhaitan was deathly afraid of fireworks. Had a fatal heart attack.

Poor sod.