Guild Wars 2

Hi!

I wonder some things about the mursaat.
1. When was they last seen?
2. When was they chased out of Shiverpeak mountain?

1: In 1079 AE (currently it is 1327 AE in GW2)
2: I would assume around 1072 AE when most of them were destroyed.

To elaborate a bit on 1, we saw seven in 1079, and killed them all. The last time a mursaat was seen and left the encounter alive was a year before, in 1078- to our knowledge, at that time and this, that one is the only survivor of the race.

The White Mantle and the Mursaat had started to move over the Shiverpeaks during the events of GW Prophecies in 1072, while your character is busy in the Crystal Desert getting the blessing of the gods. Before that they had been in Kryta and on the Ring of Fire islands, and you had been unable to even see them. You basically stop their advance eastwards over the Shiverpeaks together with the Shining Blade.

Last time the Mursaat are to be seen in GW Prophecies is during the Ring of Fire island missions where you break through their defenses to reach the door of Komalie. During that time you kill all that you encounter (including their leader Optimus Caliph), with the Titans supposed to have killed some more. But that was not all of them, at least 8 survived.

A single Mursaat makes an appearance in GW EotN in 1078, and that is Lazarus, who gets away swearing revenge for you doing damage to a fragment of his soul which he had come to collect.

The final appearance is during the events of GW Beyond War in Kryta, which happens during 1079. There you assassinate three Mursaat, and kill four more during the final Battle of Lion’s Arch, including their then-leader Talios. That makes Lazarus the only known survivor.

supposed leader. Optimus Caliph is only the supposed leader, though most likely given his fixed location when all other mursaat bosses move about, and his appearance before Saul in the BMP.

On another, totally unrelated note, I’m putting on my tin-foil hat and going to claim that Seers are biologically related to the Mursaat. Dun-dun-duuunnnnnn…!

Since they disapeared almost at the same time the asura started to leave the depths, it can be the mursaat that builded the city which ruins they built Rata sum on?

ReSpect.7125:

Since they disapeared almost at the same time the asura started to leave the depths, it can be the mursaat that builded the city which ruins they built Rata sum on?

The name Rata Sum itself is an anagram of “Mursaat”, so it is a possibility that the ruins were Mursaat in origin, but there is no proof for that.

There is a quest called “O Brave New World” in Vlox’s Falls where you accompany Asura researchers into Arbor Bay in search for a place for a new settlement, there you can see the style of ruins most likely similar to those Rata Sum was build upon.

I seem to remember a bit of lore saying they have a city in the skies above a river (Riverside Providence?)

It could be possible that the Mursaat we faced were just soldiers, and the “civilians” are safe up high in their city.

I don’t know, I’m just a big Mursaat fan and become more optimistic when it comes to them.

LumAnth.5124:

I seem to remember a bit of lore saying they have a city in the skies above a river (Riverside Providence?)

It could be possible that the Mursaat we faced were just soldiers, and the “civilians” are safe up high in their city.

I don’t know, I’m just a big Mursaat fan and become more optimistic when it comes to them.

I think you mean rumors about the Wizard’s Tower in GW1 Kessex Peak being a Mursaat stronghold, but there was never any real hint in the lore about that as far as i know. In fact, the mystery about the tower remains till today in GW2. Maybe Lazarus is biding his time inside, who knows… >.<

Frosch.7809:

ReSpect.7125:

Since they disapeared almost at the same time the asura started to leave the depths, it can be the mursaat that builded the city which ruins they built Rata sum on?

The name Rata Sum itself is an anagram of “Mursaat”, so it is a possibility that the ruins were Mursaat in origin, but there is no proof for that.

There is a quest called “O Brave New World” in Vlox’s Falls where you accompany Asura researchers into Arbor Bay in search for a place for a new settlement, there you can see the style of ruins most likely similar to those Rata Sum was build upon.

The name Rata Sum is asuran made.

But it’s unlikely that those ruins were mursaat made. Firstly, the ruins match ruins used in the Depths – including the Central Transfer Chamber. The ruins in the quest O Brave New World are in fact the exact same models as seen in the Central Transfer Chamber.

Secondly, the mursaat are only “recently returned” as the Unseen Ones in the world – the ruins are not young enough to have been built and abandoned only recently, but they’re too old to be from 10,000 or even 2,000 years ago (Seiran makes a comment about dwarven civilization being “older than 2,000 years” which would seem weird if they’re over 10,000 years old as implied by the Priory’s proclaimed previous rise of the ED given that the dwarves were present – whichever is when the last ED rise was, is when mursaat left the world – and they only returned a few years before Prophecies).

Thirdly, mixing with the first point, we have Rata Pten – a surface asuran outpost from before the Cataclysm. This shows that the asura had some structures on the surface from the past, forgotten to their own people (which is not uncommon given how paranoid they are – a lot of personal information is lost when an individual dies because they don’t want others using their inventions and the like, a habit that’s been dying off in the past 250 years and one of the original reasons for the Inquest’s creation in fact).

Fourthly, Rata Sum does not match in any way, shape, or form the mursaat structures seen on the Ring of Fire Islands.

LumAnth.5124:

I seem to remember a bit of lore saying they have a city in the skies above a river (Riverside Providence?)

It could be possible that the Mursaat we faced were just soldiers, and the “civilians” are safe up high in their city.

I don’t know, I’m just a big Mursaat fan and become more optimistic when it comes to them.

You’re mixing two different things.

In whichever forest (there’s two near Kryta) that Saul was exiled into, he stumbled upon a mursaat city of towers reaching to the sky.

The bit about a river comes from Old Joness who mentions an oddness about the Ullen River. Players took this to mean there’s a mursaat town in that unexplored place between Tangle Root and Riverside Provence – fun fact: that’s south-central Brisban now.

Didnt knew the asura have been on the surface before 1078 AE. Also havent seen any pics of the dephts. Gonna check it out after writing this post. Then I guess the broken asura gate just outside rata pten leadd to somewhere in the dephts and when it broke or got shut down from the other side the asuras there left or died?

“Rata Sum” is an asuran name in lore terms, sure, but in real-world terms it was created by an ArenaNet writer. Someone decided to make the asuran capital an anagram of ‘mursaat’ – why?

I think I was the first person (although I could easily be wrong) to point out that current asuran architecture seems to be similar to that of Rata Sum of 250 years ago, which as we know belongs to some older civilization. There was some other dialogue in GW1 that explains that the asura settled Rata Sum because the walls already existed, the asura just had to fortify them and set up the geomystical generators, but I can’t for the life of me find it. But Linsey provides the most compelling evidence, anyway.

But you’re right to say that these ruins resemble examples of asuran architecture that predate 1078 AE, when the asura arrived at the surface. And you’re also right to say that these ruins don’t resemble any of the mursaat’s Jade structures. So there’s an inconsistency there.

If these two facts were all we knew about the matter, then the most reasonable explanation would indeed be that the ruins were simply remnants of a forgotten asuran surface expedition, and have nothing to do with the mursaat. But ‘Rata Sum’ is an anagram of ‘mursaat’, Linsey does suggest Orrian, Seer, or mursaat origins for the ruiins (and we know it isn’t Orrian), and, perhaps most compellingly of all, in GW2 when the player raids a White Mantle base, books are found on Krytan history, bloodstones, and…asuran architecture. If asuran architecture doesn’t have its basis in mursaat culture, then someone at ArenaNet certainly wants us to think otherwise.

Linsey only says (with confirmation) that they were built by a magical civilization.

Asura have a magical civilization. So it’s not like Linsey says they cannot be asuran.

The anagram is likely just Anet putting a nod to the player’s love of mursaat – which I feel was mentioned once somewhere though I haven’t a clue where. Or it could be pure happenstance given that Rata Sum is latin for “I (have) verified/ratified.”

And Linsey suggesting Orrian, Seer, or mursaat honestly tells me “it’s not these three” – because why would she give it away? Anet loves teasing, and that line is certainly a teasing line.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Linsey only says (with confirmation) that they were built by a magical civilization.

Asura have a magical civilization. So it’s not like Linsey says they cannot be asuran.

The anagram is likely just Anet putting a nod to the player’s love of mursaat – which I feel was mentioned once somewhere though I haven’t a clue where. Or it could be pure happenstance given that Rata Sum is latin for “I (have) verified/ratified.”

And Linsey suggesting Orrian, Seer, or mursaat honestly tells me “it’s not these three” – because why would she give it away? Anet loves teasing, and that line is certainly a teasing line.

I don’t buy that the anagram is a mere nod, given the presence of other clues that hint to a link between mursaat and asura, and I definitely don’t buy that the anagram was a coincidence. And how do you explain the books on asuran architecture at a White Mantle hideout?

Hard to say, but I find it hard to believe that Rata Sum’s ruins are mursaat made when confirmed asuran made structures that predate their founding of Rata Sum appear just like those “unknown” structures.

Wouldn’t be the only case of inconsistency in lore.

Tamias.7059:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Linsey only says (with confirmation) that they were built by a magical civilization.

Asura have a magical civilization. So it’s not like Linsey says they cannot be asuran.

The anagram is likely just Anet putting a nod to the player’s love of mursaat – which I feel was mentioned once somewhere though I haven’t a clue where. Or it could be pure happenstance given that Rata Sum is latin for “I (have) verified/ratified.”

And Linsey suggesting Orrian, Seer, or mursaat honestly tells me “it’s not these three” – because why would she give it away? Anet loves teasing, and that line is certainly a teasing line.

I don’t buy that the anagram is a mere nod, given the presence of other clues that hint to a link between mursaat and asura, and I definitely don’t buy that the anagram was a coincidence. And how do you explain the books on asuran architecture at a White Mantle hideout?

Red herring. Not every book there has to be directly mursaat-related. The book could have been there before the White Mantle decided to use the place as a hideout, or Esthel may have had the book for purely practical reasons rather than having any connection between the asura and the mursaat.

It’s also worth noting that the “bandits” in the Sinister Triad are likely Mantle (at least the ultimate leaders) and they have an alliance with the Inquest that involves using Inquest technology, including defensive turrets. Thus, one easy explanation is that Esthel wanted to study up on asuran design principles to better understand devices that she may have been planning to acquire from the Inquest after the mission the orphan PC foiled.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Hard to say, but I find it hard to believe that Rata Sum’s ruins are mursaat made when confirmed asuran made structures that predate their founding of Rata Sum appear just like those “unknown” structures.

Wouldn’t be the only case of inconsistency in lore.

No, it wouldn’t be – there are still glaring errors like mentions of Kormir all over Orr, and statues that say the Dragonbrand existed over two years before it did. So how do we explain this inconsistency? What is the error in this case? That the pre-1078 asuran structures also resemble the ruins in the jungle, or that there is a mention of asuran architecture in a White Mantle base?

I’m going to go for the former. The asuran assets in GW:EN were most likely recycled from Utopia and so went through a very convoluted process between initial creation and actually getting into the game. Inconsistency or no, the book on asuran architecture in the Mantle base strikes me as a very intentional hint.

draxynnic.3719:

Red herring. Not every book there has to be directly mursaat-related. The book could have been there before the White Mantle decided to use the place as a hideout, or Esthel may have had the book for purely practical reasons rather than having any connection between the asura and the mursaat.

It’s also worth noting that the “bandits” in the Sinister Triad are likely Mantle (at least the ultimate leaders) and they have an alliance with the Inquest that involves using Inquest technology, including defensive turrets. Thus, one easy explanation is that Esthel wanted to study up on asuran design principles to better understand devices that she may have been planning to acquire from the Inquest after the mission the orphan PC foiled.

If we accept for a moment that it is a red herring, that is, a fake “clue” intended to distract us, then the question becomes why? Why drop hints all over the place that the ruins along the Tarnished Coast are mursaat ruins, if the truth is the far less interesting revelation that the ruins are just a forgotten asuran surface expedition. That wouldn’t strike me as very good storytelling.

The term ‘red herring’ might have been a little extreme, but ArenaNet has shown a willingness to put in tidbits that actually aren’t a Chekhov’s Gun waiting to be fired, but are in there to show that the world is bigger than the story being currently told. The asuran architecture reference could be nothing more than another one of those – they wanted three topics related to the Mantle and one that wasn’t, and asuran architecture happened to be what it was (when it could just as easily have been a treatise on the care and feeding of siege devourers).

Or, as I said, it could be plot-relevant in a manner that has nothing to do with any connection between the Rata Sum ruins and the mursaat - like, as I said and you included in your quotation, Confesser Esthel wanting to read up on asura design before some future operation of subversion involving Inquest technology (or asura technology in general) – one possibility being the asura technology used in the Caudecus Manor affair. Which obviously Esthel didn’t participate in personally, but she may have had some knowledge of the possibility of asura stuff becoming available to the White Mantle before her timely end at the hands of the orphan PC.

And, as Konig has said, there is actually relatively little hard evidence of the Rata Sum ruins as being mursaat in origin. ArenaNet’s various teases aren’t part of the storytelling, and apart from that, the only real solid pieces are Saul’s backstory and the dialogue regarding the Ullen River – neither of which point specifically to Rata Sum. There probably is the (ruins of the) city Saul found somewhere in the Maguuma, but there can be the ruins of multiple civilisations within the same broad region.

At the bottom line, though, there are lots of other explanations for the presence of that book than Rata Sum being based on mursaat ruins. Particularly since the book appears to be technical in nature, and there is much stronger evidence that the White Mantle, or factions with a high likelihood of being manipulated by the Mantle, are in an alliance with the Inquest and thus have access to asura technomancy.

Tamias.7059:

No, it wouldn’t be – there are still glaring errors like mentions of Kormir all over Orr, and statues that say the Dragonbrand existed over two years before it did. So how do we explain this inconsistency? What is the error in this case? That the pre-1078 asuran structures also resemble the ruins in the jungle, or that there is a mention of asuran architecture in a White Mantle base?

I’m going to go for the former. The asuran assets in GW:EN were most likely recycled from Utopia and so went through a very convoluted process between initial creation and actually getting into the game. Inconsistency or no, the book on asuran architecture in the Mantle base strikes me as a very intentional hint.

I’ve not seen a single reference to Kormir having been in Orrian knowledge… You’ll have to point that out to me. Unless you’re referring to the one originally-French story bit of Malchor from before release.

There are inconsistencies, but I don’t think that this is one such inconsistency… I just meant that it’s always possible – in the idea that one designer wanted the ruins to be of mursaat origin, while another did not. I wasn’t talking about obvious typos like the one in Ferro’s statue, but clashing design choices (or changed but overlooked).

Not an error, per se, nor an oversight. Just two designer paths. This happened with Prophecies’ development, where the two lead writers wanted to go different directions with the plot. Hence the back and forth outcome between the villains.

Tamias.7059:

If we accept for a moment that it is a red herring, that is, a fake “clue” intended to distract us, then the question becomes why? Why drop hints all over the place that the ruins along the Tarnished Coast are mursaat ruins, if the truth is the far less interesting revelation that the ruins are just a forgotten asuran surface expedition. That wouldn’t strike me as very good storytelling.

Why? Because ArenaNet loves to see players speculate. Because Anet acknowledge fan theories in the game – maybe this is one such case! Because ArenaNet does enjoy teasing us now and again.

And I would hardly call it “all over the place” if it’s just two things. Sounds like you’re trying to make it sound like there’s more going for your theory than you let on/there is.

It’s a slightly off-topic point, but I’m not sure that the ruins being a forgotten Asuran expedition to the surface wouldn’t be at least as interesting. Think about it, they’re one of the few pieces of pre-fleeing Asuran History available to players.

On the plus side, depending on where they go with the LS in the next season, we could well see at least some inference to the Mursaat in the unexplored regions of the map to the West.

Isn’t there a heart which involves the ruins (that we can see in lots of places, which are Asura style) implying at some point the Asura were on the surface, then went back underground?

Either way, I do kinda believe the whole “We just wiped out their field forces.” Since we never go to the “Shiny cities” Saul entered, which were weeks+ ride away from Kryta, likely on the isles of janthir.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

To elaborate a bit on 1, we saw seven in 1079, and killed them all. The last time a mursaat was seen and left the encounter alive was a year before, in 1078- to our knowledge, at that time and this, that one is the only survivor of the race.

Well, he is the only know survivor of the ones we encountered in Tyria. There could be more living in other places.

jheryn.8390:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

To elaborate a bit on 1, we saw seven in 1079, and killed them all. The last time a mursaat was seen and left the encounter alive was a year before, in 1078- to our knowledge, at that time and this, that one is the only survivor of the race.

Well, he is the only know survivor of the ones we encountered in Tyria. There could be more living in other places.

Thus, “to our knowledge”. While it can certainly be fun for theory-crafting, I try to keep more-or-less baseless speculation out of the answer when someone asks only for information.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

jheryn.8390:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

To elaborate a bit on 1, we saw seven in 1079, and killed them all. The last time a mursaat was seen and left the encounter alive was a year before, in 1078- to our knowledge, at that time and this, that one is the only survivor of the race.

Well, he is the only know survivor of the ones we encountered in Tyria. There could be more living in other places.

Thus, “to our knowledge”. While it can certainly be fun for theory-crafting, I try to keep more-or-less baseless speculation out of the answer when someone asks only for information.

I missed where you said “to our knowledge”. My bad. What wasn’t my bad was that there is no indication or lore that poses the Mursaat were indigenous to Tyria. Since this is a work of fiction, there is only ‘more-or-less baseless’ speculation about anything that happens in the GW world beyond what has been written or in game.

I was not being critical of the information you gave BTW. I was just putting something additional out there. No need to be snide.

The mursaat were of the five races that survived the previous Elder Dragon rise. They fled into the Mists to do so. There is nothing to support they are not of Tyrian origin. This actually supports the ‘they can be living elsewhere’ but we were told in Prophecies they were wiped out – told such by the oracle Glint. So it is likely that they’re very few in number, only surviving enough to either not be considered a civilization anymore, or went somewhere Glint couldn’t see. And she saw into the Realm of Torment (or so it is implied).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The mursaat were of the five races that survived the previous Elder Dragon rise. They fled into the Mists to do so. There is nothing to support they are not of Tyrian origin. This actually supports the ‘they can be living elsewhere’ but we were told in Prophecies they were wiped out – told such by the oracle Glint. So it is likely that they’re very few in number, only surviving enough to either not be considered a civilization anymore, or went somewhere Glint couldn’t see. And she saw into the Realm of Torment (or so it is implied).

I mostly agree with you here. However, I would just submit that there is also nothing to support that they are of Tyrian origin.

I also believe you are right in saying that they were probably few in number when Glint provided the Prophecies. That is not to say that the few remaining didn’t make an effort to remedy their nearly extinct status. Some species real and imagined have done this.

Yes, this is speculation on my part and the opposite could be just as valid. However, we know there are cells of White Mantle (who worshiped the Mursaat) around and more supposedly fled to the Maguuma Jungle. Something is obviously still holding them together. A single or multiple Mursaat could as easily be the answer to that as anything.

jheryn.8390:

I mostly agree with you here. However, I would just submit that there is also nothing to support that they are of Tyrian origin.

By that argument, then you cannot say anything is of Tyrian origins. Not mursaat, not Elder Dragon, not jotun, not even dwarves.

But the thing is, until we have reason to believe otherwise, why shouldn’t we believe they are of Tyrian origin if they existed in Tyria for as long as their history indicate?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

jheryn.8390:

I mostly agree with you here. However, I would just submit that there is also nothing to support that they are of Tyrian origin.

By that argument, then you cannot say anything is of Tyrian origins. Not mursaat, not Elder Dragon, not jotun, not even dwarves.

But the thing is, until we have reason to believe otherwise, why shouldn’t we believe they are of Tyrian origin if they existed in Tyria for as long as their history indicate?

You are correct. We could say that about many races/creatures.

Firstly, I am not saying that they are not Tyrian, just that there is nothing to support that fact. Several creatures/races were brought to Tyria and do not have Tyrian origins. Since they had the ability to traverse the mists, they obviously have access to other realms/places.

Little to nothing is known about the Mursaat before 1070 AE. We know they have been here for a long time, but that is all.

So to answer your question, why shouldn’t we believe they are Tyrian? There is no reason we should not. At the same time, since we really know nothing about their origins, why_shouldn’t_ we wonder if their origins may lie elsewhere since other races are not indigenous to Tyria?

So unless someone has concrete proof the Mursaat are indigenous to Tyria, especially in a fantasy setting where other realms are stated to exist, it doesn’t really matter if people believe they are Tyrian in origin or not.

How about this? Now please understand I never really played GW1, and only partially followed the story/lore in GW2. Now conerning the link between the Mursaat and the Asura. I gather that the Asura were an underground race and than fled to the surface at some point, found some ruins, and built upon them creating Rata Sum. I don’t know if we’ve been able to visit the undergound city that the Asura fled or not, but it seems to me that there are various ruins that resemble Asurian architecture. But we know them to predate the Asurian exodus. Therefore, I can only surmise that when the Asura fled to the surface, they found the ruins, and instead of rebuilding them in accordance with their architectural style, they were able to extrapolate the current architechture and rebuild accordingly. So what is now taken as Asurian design, could actually be Mursaat(ian?) in nature, just adopted by the Asura.

The wiki on Asura states that their writing is the only thing about their culture that remains unchanged.
“The asuran script, the asura’s written language, is among the most used writing styles in Tyria. Though only used by asura who also use New Krytan, it is one of the parts of their culture that has remained unchanged since their surfacing from the Depths.”
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Asura
So if their writing is the only thing that remained unchanged, it doesn’t seem to make sense that other aspects of their culture (i.e. Architechture) survived, and they rebuilt the ruins in accordance with that.

I wouldn’t say “little to nothing is known” about the mursaat prior to 1070 AE.

1. The White Mantle were formed no latter than 1067 AE, actually, as the Test of the Chosen has occurred for 5 years as of 1072 AE.
2. We know that the mursaat were around during the previous rise, being one of the five strongest races.
3. We know that they betrayed the other races, nearly wiped out the seers, and then left the world for the Mists.
4. We know they created their more powerful magics (their half-stepping into the Mists making them invisible to most, and Spectral Agony) before leaving to the Mists.
5. We know that they returned shortly before being called the Unseen Ones, implying returning no earlier than probably 1050 AE.
6. We know that they believed in the Flameseeker Prophecies to the point of setting up the White Mantle and Test of the Chosen (again, which began in 1067 AE), which implies they knew of Glint and her credibility as a mindreader/oracle.
7. We know they dealt with titans before, given the seer’s line about the titans not changing over the eons.

That seems a lot more than “little to nothing” to be honest.

The only race not indigenous to Tyria are humans. At least that’s confirmed. They were brought by the Six Gods, and though said Six Gods may have brought other races, certainly not those that predate their time on Tyria (world). Which includes: jotun, seers, mursaat, dwarves, karka, djinn, giganticus lupicus, Elder Dragons; and possibly includes: tengu, charr, krait, forgotten, kodan, norn, ogre, at least.

Concrete proof will never exist unless they’re not native to Tyria. Same goes for everything else. Why should we believe they’re not native to Tyria when there is absolutely nothing to imply they’re not native to Tyria? By your argument, I can claim that Dwayna gave birth to Zhaitan.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rata_Pten

Asuran style, said to be an ancient Asura settlement.

Likely the Asura lived on the surface in ancient times, then went underground for some reason.

When they were forced back to the surface, they reclaimed some of those ruins as settlements.

That does make sense. However, I would suggest that while it (the wiki) states that the Asura had 6 great cities, and scattered citadels BEFORE fleeing, it does state that they did find magical ruins and built upon those. It would stand to reason that Rata Pten is one of those citadels built while still underground, as it’s only the above ground portion of the citadel and it was abandoned some time BEFORE the exile from the depths. But that leaves little Mursaat influence on the Asura. And the Mursaat were believed to reside mainly in the Isle of Janthir, and that is yet unexplored.

I understand that blows up my original theory, but I would be interested in seeing more of the Mursaat in future developments

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I wouldn’t say “little to nothing is known” about the mursaat prior to 1070 AE.

1. The White Mantle were formed no latter than 1067 AE, actually, as the Test of the Chosen has occurred for 5 years as of 1072 AE.
2. We know that the mursaat were around during the previous rise, being one of the five strongest races.
3. We know that they betrayed the other races, nearly wiped out the seers, and then left the world for the Mists.
4. We know they created their more powerful magics (their half-stepping into the Mists making them invisible to most, and Spectral Agony) before leaving to the Mists.
5. We know that they returned shortly before being called the Unseen Ones, implying returning no earlier than probably 1050 AE.
6. We know that they believed in the Flameseeker Prophecies to the point of setting up the White Mantle and Test of the Chosen (again, which began in 1067 AE), which implies they knew of Glint and her credibility as a mindreader/oracle.
7. We know they dealt with titans before, given the seer’s line about the titans not changing over the eons.

That seems a lot more than “little to nothing” to be honest.

---

The only race not indigenous to Tyria are humans. At least that’s confirmed. They were brought by the Six Gods, and though said Six Gods may have brought other races, certainly not those that predate their time on Tyria (world). Which includes: jotun, seers, mursaat, dwarves, karka, djinn, giganticus lupicus, Elder Dragons; and possibly includes: tengu, charr, krait, forgotten, kodan, norn, ogre, at least.

Concrete proof will never exist unless they’re not native to Tyria. Same goes for everything else. Why should we believe they’re not native to Tyria when there is absolutely nothing to imply they’re not native to Tyria? By your argument, I can claim that Dwayna gave birth to Zhaitan.

Seven points of knowledge does constitute knowing little to nothing about them before 1070 IMO. Scientist in the real world know much more about many species and they claim they still know little to nothing about them. So you are wrong if you think that seven points of knowledge constitutes a wealth of knowledge.

Where is it confirmed that ONLY humans are not native to Tyria? And who is to say that other “gods” or the races themselves did not migrate to Tyria? Since Tyria’s history is so much older than we have account for, it is stupid to just assume anything. You know what they say about assuming. I guess you cannot grasp that I said that they very likely to be from Tryia in my post above, and instead want to pick things to contradict. The bottom line is, until we have some more ancient history given to us, no on can say anything for sure.

Also, comparing Dwayna giving birth to Zaihtan to the possibility that a very powerful, magical, realm traversing race not being native to a world is obtuse.

Although I consider you to be a paragon of GW lore knowledge, I think that it is hard for you to deal with things that are unknown.

Again, I am not saying they are indeed from someplace else. I never, ever implied that they were, but there are a lot of things that are not written and set in stone. With the key push of an author sanctioned by ANet things that we don’t know about Tyrian history but “assumed to be true” can be turned completely upside down. I assumed Livia was long dead. She may or not be dead now, but she certainly wasn’t 200 years dead like I assumed she was.

pdavis.8031:

That does make sense. However, I would suggest that while it (the wiki) states that the Asura had 6 great cities, and scattered citadels BEFORE fleeing, it does state that they did find magical ruins and built upon those. It would stand to reason that Rata Pten is one of those citadels built while still underground, as it’s only the above ground portion of the citadel and it was abandoned some time BEFORE the exile from the depths. But that leaves little Mursaat influence on the Asura.

The six citadels were lost in 1078 AE or later, when the asura were fleeing the destroyers. They were not lost prior to surfacing. They were abandoned during the beginning of their exile, not prior to it.

jheryn.8390:

Seven points of knowledge does constitute knowing little to nothing about them before 1070 IMO. Scientist in the real world know much more about many species and they claim they still know little to nothing about them. So you are wrong if you think that seven points of knowledge constitutes a wealth of knowledge.

Compared to every single race in all of Tyria, 7 summarizing sentences (not the full case, just summaries on individual points – which would be akin to “birds can fly, birds migrate,” etc.) is far from “little to nothing” – especially when most cases, the history of non-human races is exactly nothing. We know more about mursaat history than we know asuran or norn history, and about as much as charr history!

I wouldn’t say we have a lot, I wouldn’t say it is a “wealth of knowledge” – I’m just saying it is more than “little to nothing”.

jheryn.8390:

Where is it confirmed that ONLY humans are not native to Tyria?

You misread. I said only humans are confirmed non-native. If you read both sentences, I followed saying only humans are not native with “that’s confirmed, at least.”

jheryn.8390:

And who is to say that other “gods” or the races themselves did not migrate to Tyria?

The lack of such other gods kind of hints to such. If you argue that route, then by racial histories, you can only slap Forgotten, kodan, and quaggan on there – but kodan religion claims they were born on Tyria, not brought to Tyria, just like dwarven myth.

jheryn.8390:

Since Tyria’s history is so much older than we have account for, it is stupid to just assume anything.

Then why were you assuming the mursaat were not native?

jheryn.8390:

I guess you cannot grasp that I said that they very likely to be from Tryia in my post above, and instead want to pick things to contradict. The bottom line is, until we have some more ancient history given to us, no on can say anything for sure.

I did not see you claim such. Even in re-reading your posts just now. What you claimed is, to quote: “What wasn’t my bad was that there is no indication or lore that poses the Mursaat were indigenous to Tyria.” “I would just submit that there is also nothing to support that they are of Tyrian origin.” “I am not saying that they are not Tyrian, just that there is nothing to support that fact.”

You do not deny the possibility, but you countlessly say that there’s no reason to believe they’re native, and constantly press for them not being native. This is, to me at least and I wouldn’t doubt others reading your posts, you theorizing that they are not native. You most certainly never gave hint to them being “very likely native” when you’re constantly arguing that there’s zero support for what you now claim is “very likely”.

jheryn.8390:

Also, comparing Dwayna giving birth to Zaihtan to the possibility that a very powerful, magical, realm traversing race not being native to a world is obtuse.

It was a strawman argument to show “if you argue that something is possible because of a lack of counter-evidence, well there’s no evidence to say otherwise for this so it is equally possible.”

jheryn.8390:

Although I consider you to be a paragon of GW lore knowledge, I think that it is hard for you to deal with things that are unknown.

Hardly, I constantly state that many things taken as fact is, in fact, unknown to us. Like whom the entity is – everyone kept going “it’s Mordremoth” just because Mordremoth woke up. I said that wasn’t the case, we don’t yet know whom the entity is. Just one of many cases. Another being Saul being taken to the Maguuma – something long taken as fact, but I hold the stance that it isn’t confirmed. Or the belief that mursaat live(d) on the Isle of Janthir.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I wouldn’t say we have a lot, I wouldn’t say it is a “wealth of knowledge” – I’m just saying it is more than “little to nothing”.

Neither of us will win this argument. In this case, “little to nothing” is a subjective phrase. Yes we know some things before 1070, but I still see it as very little. You do not. What we consider “little” is subjective.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You misread. I said only humans are confirmed non-native. If you read both sentences, I followed saying only humans are not native with “that’s confirmed, at least.”

I believe this is what you said:

The only race not indigenous to Tyria are humans. At least that’s confirmed.

I did not misread. If what you said above about humans being the only confirmed race not native was your intention, you formed your supporting sentences poorly. The first statement clearly says that that the only race not indigenous to Tyria are humans. Period. The second sentence says that your first statement was confirmed to be true.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The lack of such other gods kind of hints to such. If you argue that route, then by racial histories, you can only slap Forgotten, kodan, and quaggan on there – but kodan religion claims they were born on Tyria, not brought to Tyria, just like dwarven myth.

Again, I never claimed that they or any other racew were NOT from Tyria. The probability that they are from Tryia much greater than they are not. Without proven evidence, we will never know 100% even if it is generally accepted as fact. Old real world histories are constantly being proven true, updated or even proven wrong. So to say that we have to blindly accept any history as truth because it is written or assumed, is faith not fact.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Then why were you assuming the mursaat were not native?

I was not. Show me where I said they were definitely not native or “assumed” they were from somewhere else.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You do not deny the possibility, but you countlessly say that there’s no reason to believe they’re native, and constantly press for them not being native. This is, to me at least and I wouldn’t doubt others reading your posts, you theorizing that they are not native. You most certainly never gave hint to them being “very likely native” when you’re constantly arguing that there’s zero support for what you now claim is “very likely”.

Please do not twist my words to suit your arguments. I never said or indicated there was no reason to believe they are not native. Prove that if you are going to say it. I simply threw it out there as a possibility for thought. You accuse me of saying things that are not supported, but you are doing worse with the claims about my words. Prove where I ever claim that it is is “very likely” that they are not from Tyria. I don’t care if you disagree with me, just don’t lie to suit your needs. I was offering speculative possibilities, you are just trying to prove yourself right with fallacies.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It was a strawman argument to show “if you argue that something is possible because of a lack of counter-evidence, well there’s no evidence to say otherwise for this so it is equally possible.”

LOL. Straw man arguments are intentional misrepresentations of an opponent’s position, often used in debates with unsophisticated and ignorant audiences to make it appear that the opponent’s arguments are more easily defeated than they are. In other words, you don’t have a strong argument so you tried to make it sound like you do and that those are reading this are dumb enough to just believe you.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

jheryn.8390:

Although I consider you to be a paragon of GW lore knowledge, I think that it is hard for you to deal with things that are unknown.

Hardly, I constantly state that many things taken as fact is, in fact, unknown to us.

This. Thank you for supporting my position. Many things taken as fact are unknown to us.

Bottom line: I never even came close to saying it was very likely Mursaat were not from Tyria. I honestly think they probably are. I simply injected a speculation or wonder at the possibility they might not be. Never. Ever. Did I say that I didn’t believe they were NOT from Tryia.

Please distinguish between a hypothetical possibility and a statement of belief.

jheryn.8390:

I believe this is what you said:

The only race not indigenous to Tyria are humans. At least that’s confirmed.

I did not misread. If what you said above about humans being the only confirmed race not native was your intention, you formed your supporting sentences poorly. The first statement clearly says that that the only race not indigenous to Tyria are humans. Period. The second sentence says that your first statement was confirmed to be true.

I’m sorry, I apparently forgot a single comma, which caused you to misunderstand what I was saying. If the second sentence was “At least, that’s confirmed” then there probably wouldn’t have been confusion – actually, I didn’t really forget because how I wrote it still means what I meant.

My second sentence does not state my first was confirmed, it states "at least <pronoun replacing “humans are non-native”> was confirmed."

In which case, you misunderstood, and I could have worded it in less confusing manner.

jheryn.8390:

So to say that we have to blindly accept any history as truth because it is written or assumed, is faith not fact.

No, I say “we accept what is most likely until otherwise hinted at”. Without debunking evidence, theories can exist – no one denied, to my knowledge and I certainly didn’t, the possibility of mursaat being of Tyrian origins.

jheryn.8390:

Please do not twist my words to suit your arguments. I never said or indicated there was no reason to believe they are not native. Prove that if you are going to say it. I simply threw it out there as a possibility for thought. You accuse me of saying things that are not supported, but you are doing worse with the claims about my words. Prove where I ever claim that it is is “very likely” that they are not from Tyria. I don’t care if you disagree with me, just don’t lie to suit your needs. I was offering speculative possibilities, you are just trying to prove yourself right with fallacies.

How can I twist your words when I quote you verbatim? No where do you state that mursaat are “most likely Tyrians” – or any variation of such. I quoted multiple times you saying that “nothing supports they’re Tyrian”. One can and most often will read the denial of one side to be the support of another. This is what I said. I twisted no words, I did not lie.

jheryn.8390:

LOL. Straw man arguments are intentional misrepresentations of an opponent’s position, often used in debates with unsophisticated and ignorant audiences to make it appear that the opponent’s arguments are more easily defeated than they are. In other words, you don’t have a strong argument so you tried to make it sound like you do and that those are reading this are dumb enough to just believe you.

There’s two ways of using a strawman argument – one is what you stated, the other is to bring up arguments that other people would possibly use in using the same argument of the present opponent. I do the latter. Perhaps that isn’t straw man arguments though, and something else that I’m just not familiar with technical debate terms to know?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

jheryn.8390:

I believe this is what you said:

The only race not indigenous to Tyria are humans. At least that’s confirmed.

I did not misread. If what you said above about humans being the only confirmed race not native was your intention, you formed your supporting sentences poorly. The first statement clearly says that that the only race not indigenous to Tyria are humans. Period. The second sentence says that your first statement was confirmed to be true.

I’m sorry, I apparently forgot a single comma, which caused you to misunderstand what I was saying. If the second sentence was “At least, that’s confirmed” then there probably wouldn’t have been confusion – actually, I didn’t really forget because how I wrote it still means what I meant.

My second sentence does not state my first was confirmed, it states "at least <pronoun replacing “humans are non-native”> was confirmed."

In which case, you misunderstood, and I could have worded it in less confusing manner.

jheryn.8390:

So to say that we have to blindly accept any history as truth because it is written or assumed, is faith not fact.

No, I say “we accept what is most likely until otherwise hinted at”. Without debunking evidence, theories can exist – no one denied, to my knowledge and I certainly didn’t, the possibility of mursaat being of Tyrian origins.

jheryn.8390:

Please do not twist my words to suit your arguments. I never said or indicated there was no reason to believe they are not native. Prove that if you are going to say it. I simply threw it out there as a possibility for thought. You accuse me of saying things that are not supported, but you are doing worse with the claims about my words. Prove where I ever claim that it is is “very likely” that they are not from Tyria. I don’t care if you disagree with me, just don’t lie to suit your needs. I was offering speculative possibilities, you are just trying to prove yourself right with fallacies.

How can I twist your words when I quote you verbatim? No where do you state that mursaat are “most likely Tyrians” – or any variation of such. I quoted multiple times you saying that “nothing supports they’re Tyrian”. One can and most often will read the denial of one side to be the support of another. This is what I said. I twisted no words, I did not lie.

jheryn.8390:

LOL. Straw man arguments are intentional misrepresentations of an opponent’s position, often used in debates with unsophisticated and ignorant audiences to make it appear that the opponent’s arguments are more easily defeated than they are. In other words, you don’t have a strong argument so you tried to make it sound like you do and that those are reading this are dumb enough to just believe you.

There’s two ways of using a strawman argument – one is what you stated, the other is to bring up arguments that other people would possibly use in using the same argument of the present opponent. I do the latter. Perhaps that isn’t straw man arguments though, and something else that I’m just not familiar with technical debate terms to know?

Actually Konig, I am with Jheryn on this one. The way he wrote everything above he was just throwing the possibility out there they may not be, and stated that most likely they are from Tyria. Three different post he stated he was not stating they aren’t from Tyria, but since it is not set in stone, why couldn’t this be a possibility.

Honestly don’t see how it could be read any different.

My honest belief is they are from Tyria. But we have no idea of the numbers they had when they left for the mist during the last ED rise. Figuring they had enough numbers to almost wipe out the seer, one could speculate they had decent numbers. Figuring we have only seen what is it now 7 total, I would think more are where ever they went. So any returning now could be coming to find out what happened to the others, or they have been going back and forth since they returned.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

jheryn.8390:

LOL. Straw man arguments are intentional misrepresentations of an opponent’s position, often used in debates with unsophisticated and ignorant audiences to make it appear that the opponent’s arguments are more easily defeated than they are. In other words, you don’t have a strong argument so you tried to make it sound like you do and that those are reading this are dumb enough to just believe you.

There’s two ways of using a strawman argument – one is what you stated, the other is to bring up arguments that other people would possibly use in using the same argument of the present opponent. I do the latter. Perhaps that isn’t straw man arguments though, and something else that I’m just not familiar with technical debate terms to know?

Um, no. Arguing against something that someone MIGHT have said to support something you disagree with is a Strawman argument and is considered a logical fallacy. Please address the argument being presented and not the windmill arguments that you are imagining.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I’m sorry, I apparently forgot a single comma, which caused you to misunderstand what I was saying. If the second sentence was “At least, that’s confirmed” then there probably wouldn’t have been confusion – actually, I didn’t really forget because how I wrote it still means what I meant.

My second sentence does not state my first was confirmed, it states "at least <pronoun replacing “humans are non-native”> was confirmed."

In which case, you misunderstood, and I could have worded it in less confusing manner.

Nope, you are wrong. The first sentence was “The only race not indigenous to Tyria are humans.” It isn’t confusing. It is very clear and conclusive. Had you said “The only race we know about…” or “Humans are the only race we are sure are not native…” then you would have a leg to stand on. You don’t. Your statement clearly states that Humans are the only non-native Tyrian race. No other implication is given about other races or implied by the second sentence. Even with a comma. “At least, (pronoun that doesn’t indicate humans but rather the validity of the prior statement and actually means ‘that is’) confirmed.” Your comma helped nothing. Your first statement is the problem and your second statement helped it to be that much more solidified. No amount of punctuation will help those two statements mean anything other than, “Humans are the sole non-Tyrian race.” Again, I misunderstood nothing.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

jheryn.8390:

So to say that we have to blindly accept any history as truth because it is written or assumed, is faith not fact.

No, I say “we accept what is most likely until otherwise hinted at”. Without debunking evidence, theories can exist – no one denied, to my knowledge and I certainly didn’t, the possibility of mursaat being of Tyrian origins.

Well, there you have it. I posed a question. That is all. I never, not once, said that I believed Mursaat were NOT from Tyria. I just posed a “what if”. I am sorry you don’t understand that. Still unless you have concrete proof/evidence of anything, you believe on faith, not fact. That is true of history, religion, or crimes.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

How can I twist your words when I quote you verbatim? No where do you state that Mursaat are “most likely Tyrians” – or any variation of such. I quoted multiple times you saying that “nothing supports they’re Tyrian”. One can and most often will read the denial of one side to be the support of another. This is what I said. I twisted no words, I did not lie.”

Yes you did, and yes you did. Where did you quote me verbatim? You didn’t quote me saying anything of the sort. I challenge you quote me where I said it was most likely Mursaat were not from Tyria. You twisted my words and/or lied by saying that I claimed that it is very likely that they are not from Tryia. You cannot find any evidence to support that. None. Quote me where I implied that.

Well look at this! Here are some quotes from my earlier posts. Isn’t it funny that in the last of these I even say that they are most probably from Tyria? You want verbatim quotes? Here you go.

jheryn.8390:

Firstly, I am not saying that they are not Tyrian, just that there is nothing to support that fact.

jheryn.8390:

So to answer your question, why shouldn’t we believe they are Tyrian? There is no reason we should not. At the same time, since we really know nothing about their origins, why_shouldn’t_ we wonder if their origins may lie elsewhere since other races are not indigenous to Tyria?

jheryn.8390:

Again, I am not saying they are indeed from someplace else. I never, ever implied that they were, but there are a lot of things that are not written and set in stone.

jheryn.8390:

Again, I never claimed that they or any other race were NOT from Tyria. The probability that they are from Tryia much greater than they are not.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There’s two ways of using a strawman argument – one is what you stated, the other is to bring up arguments that other people would possibly use in using the same argument of the present opponent. I do the latter. Perhaps that isn’t straw man arguments though, and something else that I’m just not familiar with technical debate terms to know?

Oh no, you were correct, you did have a straw man argument. You argument fits the definition perfectly. Your argument was not, however ‘bringing up arguments that other people would possibly use in using the same argument of the present opponent.’ For that you have to compare apples to apples. You were comparing apples to socket wrenches.

jheryn.8390:

Nope, you are wrong.

I guess that we’ll have to agree to disagree, since even re-reading it, I am not confused at all in what I was saying. Were there other ways to word it? Sure. But does the way I worded it hold only te meaning you interpreted? I disagree. Either way, this is pointless. I clarified myself, yet you focus on my wording rather than the meaning.

Since you seem intent on focusing on the wording of my posts, rather than what I am trying (from your perspective) to say, this conversation continuing is pointless.

jheryn.8390:

Well, there you have it. I posed a question. That is all. I never, not once, said that I believed Mursaat were NOT from Tyria. I just posed a “what if”. I am sorry you don’t understand that. Still unless you have concrete proof/evidence of anything, you believe on faith, not fact. That is true of history, religion, or crimes.

To play your game: you did not pose a question. You posed a statement. A statement saying “they may not come from Tyria” and supported the statement with the argument of “there is no evidence to argue otherwise.”

What wasn’t my bad was that there is no indication or lore that poses the Mursaat were indigenous to Tyria. Since this is a work of fiction, there is only ‘more-or-less baseless’ speculation about anything that happens in the GW world beyond what has been written or in game.

No where did you question something. So you cannot blame me for reading the above as you arguing for mursaat being of non-Tyrian origin. And even when you try to take a step back, you still held that same feel of arguing for non-Tyrian origin mursaat:

Firstly, I am not saying that they are not Tyrian, just that there is nothing to support that fact. Several creatures/races were brought to Tyria and do not have Tyrian origins. Since they had the ability to traverse the mists, they obviously have access to other realms/places.

So unless someone has concrete proof the Mursaat are indigenous to Tyria, especially in a fantasy setting where other realms are stated to exist, it doesn’t really matter if people believe they are Tyrian in origin or not.

And then, when I said you were arguing for such, you claim I’m twisting your words. Which is another point where you’re arguing against me, not my argument. Which has devolved into this pointless meandering of methodology of arguments and sentence structures.

jheryn.8390:

Yes you did, and yes you did. Where did you quote me verbatim? You didn’t quote me saying anything of the sort. I challenge you quote me where I said it was most likely Mursaat were not from Tyria. You twisted my words and/or lied by saying that I claimed that it is very likely that they are not from Tryia. You cannot find any evidence to support that. None. Quote me where I implied that.

Well look at this! Here are some quotes from my earlier posts. Isn’t it funny that in the last of these I even say that they are most probably from Tyria? You want verbatim quotes? Here you go.

You should re-read my post then, because while I did not use quote boxes like you (I dislike having rows of them back to back), I quoted you still – verbatim. And the fun fact is that you quote the same lines I did! Isn’t it just hilarious how on both sides of the argument, we’re seeing the others’ sentences as something than what the writer intended?

This will be my final post on this unless you actually discuss the topic, and not the means of conveying the topic. This isn’t Speech or English class here, we aren’t discussing and debating how one should properly communicate with others. If you’re going to devolve this argument into talking about my sentences and not rest until I say “yes, I’m sorry, I wrote it in a way that even I could not correctly understand what I was saying” then it is pointless indeed.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

jheryn.8390:

Nope, you are wrong.

I guess that we’ll have to agree to disagree, since even re-reading it, I am not confused at all in what I was saying. Were there other ways to word it? Sure. But does the way I worded it hold only te meaning you interpreted? I disagree. Either way, this is pointless. I clarified myself, yet you focus on my wording rather than the meaning.

Since you seem intent on focusing on the wording of my posts, rather than what I am trying (from your perspective) to say, this conversation continuing is pointless.

It was pointless to begin with. I proposed a “what if” and told the truth that there is nothing concrete to absolutely prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Mursaat are Tyrian and you took issue with it. You were arguing with a harmless speculation.

Of course you aren’t confused with what you wrote. You wrote it! You think what you actually wrote is what you explained it later to be. It was not. The real problem is that you have no objectivity or editorial eye for your own words.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

jheryn.8390:

Well, there you have it. I posed a question.

To play your game: you did not pose a question. You posed a statement. A statement saying “they may not come from Tyria” and supported the statement with the argument of “there is no evidence to argue otherwise.”

Various jheryn.8390 quotes that prove nothing Konig has said

And then, when I said you were arguing for such, you claim I’m twisting your words. Which is another point where you’re arguing against me, not my argument. Which has devolved into this "pointless meandering of methodology of arguments and sentence structures.

LOL You are right I posed a statement not a question. (See how easy that is to admit when you make a mistake?) It was a “what if” statement and an unlikely probability. What makes this is funny is that I asked you where I said that Mursaat were NOT from Tyria and you still haven’t given any evidence. You are the one that turned this into a “pointless meandering of methodology of arguments and sentence structures” by making me out as having said something I did not.

Twist you did. You said that i claimed it was VERY LIKELY and MOST LIKELY that they were not from Tyria. You also haven’t shown this to be true. Even a poster below one of my posts agreed with me. You are the one reading things wrong here, not me.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I quoted you still – verbatim. And the fun fact is that you quote the same lines I did! Isn’t it just hilarious how on both sides of the argument, we’re seeing the others’ sentences as something than what the writer intended?

This will be my final post on this unless you actually discuss the topic, and not the means of conveying the topic. This isn’t Speech or English class here, we aren’t discussing and debating how one should properly communicate with others. If you’re going to devolve this argument into talking about my sentences and not rest until I say “yes, I’m sorry, I wrote it in a way that even I could not correctly understand what I was saying” then it is pointless indeed.

It isn’t hilarious Konig. It is sad that you read into things what you want them to say instead of what they actually do. Yes, you may have quoted different things from me, but had completely no comprehension of what I was saying. Either that or you actually do understand and just want to argue. That isn’t hilarious Konig, it is pitiable.

You obviously read what you want things to mean in many posts in order to discredit posters rather than gleaning their true intent or meaning. Then you argue with that person and don’t stop even if proven wrong. Your posts all over the forums follow this pattern. Many, many people call you on it, but you never admit that you are the one mistaken and not them. You are not always wrong, but you are most certainly not always correct.

I certainly don’t want you to say “yes, I’m sorry”. It is laughable for anyone who knows your methodology of forum debate to ever expect or want that. I’m just not willing to let you bully me like you do so many others into just giving up. And, at least in this instance, the more you try to prove your position, the worse your arguments have become.

My discussion on the topic: I believe the Mursaat more than likely originated in Tyria. As I have stated before. History suggests this but there is no concrete, irrefutable evidence that proves it. Not even the lore god, Konig, can produce such proof. I do not believe that is very likely or most likely that the Mursaat are from somewhere other than Tyria. Also as I have repeatedly stated.

I certainly don’t believe that the above is your final post on this. I’ve watched you badger to many people to believe that. You cannot stand not having the last word.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There’s two ways of using a strawman argument – one is what you stated, the other is to bring up arguments that other people would possibly use in using the same argument of the present opponent. I do the latter. Perhaps that isn’t straw man arguments though, and something else that I’m just not familiar with technical debate terms to know?

Hrrmn. I was thinking reductio ad absurdem, but on looking it up that’s not quite the same thing. It is distinct to strawman, though – a strawman is a caricature, while Konig was looking to demonstrate that a “we can’t prove 100% that X isn’t Y” argument does little to support Y when you consider some of the conclusions that can be generated if you trade different qualities for X and Y.

Either way, though, we’re at a ’can’t prove a negative’ situation here. We have no indications that the mursaat are foreign to Tyria, but no solid proof that they’re not either. On the other hand, we have no solid proof that anything is indigenous to Tyria.

What I think we can say, though, is this:

1: The mursaat fought against the dragons
2: The mursaat also sought a way to leave Tyria
3: As soon as the mursaat found an escape route, they took it.
4: The mursaat returned to Tyria even knowing that doing so put them at risk (through the Flameseeker Prophecies)
5: Mursaat history on Tyria goes back further than most currently extant races
6: The mursaat have no known friendly connections to other beings capable of travel between realms (such as the gods) that might have brought them to Tyria.

Points 1, 2 and 3 indicates that they did not have their own means of leaving Tyria, and they were only willing to fight until they did secure such a means. This suggests one of two possibilities – they are indigenous to Tyria, or they were stranded on Tyria some time before this. And the mursaat don’t seem the kind of race to just forget a means of traveling from one realm to another, so when combined with point 6, this makes the possibility that they’re indigenous stronger than if they’re not.

Point 4, to me, suggests that despite all the dangers of Tyria, the mursaat have no better place to be than Tyria.

Point 5 suggests that the mursaat at least have a stronger case for being indigenous than any race for whom we do not have evidence of their being on Tyria at the time the dragons were last active.

We can’t prove 100% that the mursaat are native. However, we’ve got more reason to think they are than any race except their contemporaries (and of them only the dwarves offer more evidence – and that being reasonably flimsy, in that the dwarves have an origin story placing their origin in Tyria, but we know how unreliable such legends might be) and those few younger races whose origins are known (which, for the record, does NOT include sylvari, since we only know about the current generation).

But really, I think Konig hit the nail on the head when he observed that “both sides of the argument, we’re seeing the others’ sentences as something than what the writer intended”. The longer the exchange above went, the more it looks like you both are really agreeing on the fundamentals and arguing over who’s more to blame for the misunderstanding. The only distinction apart from that is that Konig feels – and I agree – that there’s little point following lines of speculation based on the mursaat being non-native when we have no evidence suggesting they’re non-indigenous. Otherwise, we could also be pursuing long lines of speculation based of the idea of quaggans, krait, and pretty much any other race you could care to name being foreign to Tyria.

We fought a relatively small number of Mursaat – not enough to make up a civilization or build cities. Even if the titans and dragons did great damage to their numbers, there should be thousands of them left somewhere in order to build the city that Saul saw.

draxynnic.3719:

But really, I think Konig hit the nail on the head when he observed that “both sides of the argument, we’re seeing the others’ sentences as something than what the writer intended”. The longer the exchange above went, the more it looks like you both are really agreeing on the fundamentals and arguing over who’s more to blame for the misunderstanding. The only distinction apart from that is that Konig feels – and I agree – that there’s little point following lines of speculation based on the mursaat being non-native when we have no evidence suggesting they’re non-indigenous. Otherwise, we could also be pursuing long lines of speculation based of the idea of quaggans, krait, and pretty much any other race you could care to name being foreign to Tyria.

I agree draxynnic. I wasn’t even remotely trying to turn it into a debate about whether or not they were truly from Tryia or not. I was just throwing a “what if” out there. There are a myriad of similar speculation threads out there on the dragons, Scarlet, etc., etc., etc., etc.

I really enjoy debate on speculation. It is enjoyable to me to discuss possible situations when things are unknown. We most certainly could be pursuing long lines of speculation on almost anything in GW2. It isn’t hard to find some of these long lines here on the forums. It hurts nothing and is enjoyable for many people. If you don’t want to engage in speculative debate, don’t join in. Again, what does it really hurt to speculate about anything? Many of those discussions on speculations started in threads like this.

As for arguing about sentence structure. That is all we have here. This is not a vocal venue. If a person writes something that is clear and to the point, we have nothing else to go by other than those words. You cannot read ‘intent’ in a person’s words here. You can only read what you see. I, along with everyone else on these forums, make mistakes. We write things poorly or just incorrectly. That is going to happen, but when it does just admit it and say, “What I meant” or “What I was trying to say is”. Don’t defend something that is simply, obviously wrong. I have had to do it many times when I write something that was wrongly worded. It kills no one to admit they made a mistake. Yes some sentences can be interpreted several ways. Some cannot.

What I am tired of seeing is people being hateful because they don’t agree with someone else. If you want to be blunt and harsh with me, I promise that is what you are going to receive back from now on.

I don’t know if you remember draxynnic, but you and I have talked about how harsh and hateful people can come across on the forums. Again, we go back to intent. They may not intend to be that way, but nonetheless they are and many make no apologies for it. I for one, am tired of just biting my tongue with these people. Who gives them a free pass to be that way?

I appreciate the fact that some don’t want to speculate or discuss possibilities. Even remote or wild ones. That is perfectly fine and I respect that. However, it is completely unfair to tell those who do enjoy it that they should not.

draxynnic.3719:

But really, I think Konig hit the nail on the head when he observed that “both sides of the argument, we’re seeing the others’ sentences as something than what the writer intended”. The longer the exchange above went, the more it looks like you both are really agreeing on the fundamentals and arguing over who’s more to blame for the misunderstanding. The only distinction apart from that is that Konig feels – and I agree – that there’s little point following lines of speculation based on the mursaat being non-native when we have no evidence suggesting they’re non-indigenous. Otherwise, we could also be pursuing long lines of speculation based of the idea of quaggans, krait, and pretty much any other race you could care to name being foreign to Tyria.

i think so too. both sides were seeing the others sentences as something other than intended, but I agree with jheryn.

i don’t see how konigs statements about humans can be taken any way but how jheryn read it.

i also think that mursaat are from tyria. i think jheryn does too. he said it a bunch of times.

i just think that konig guy didnt want to admit it and was just trying to be more right. that is pretty mean

xerxes.3496:

i just think that konig guy didnt want to admit it and was just trying to be more right. that is pretty mean

Thanks for the insult. BTW, I can say the same for jheryn too.

Honestly? I don’t give a kittening kitten if I’m right or wrong. You can prove me wrong go the right kitten ahead. I did not see jheryn saying he didn’t think mursaat were non-native, I saw him say “it’s possible… bit there’s nothing to support it.”

And right now? It feels like you’re trying to gang up on me and make me into the badguy for some kitten able reason I don’t know.

So I was wrong in what jheryn was saying? Alright, I was kittening wrong! But so would you be in how you interpreted what I wrote with the humans being the only confirmed non-natives.

This is all lovely and dandy and all that, but it’s really making me feel hated by the community even if it’s only two or three folks. So y’know what? Don’t want me around? You can just say it. Hate how I am? You can just kittening say it. To my face. Don’t have to make me look like an kitten first, or point how I’m “clearly” the only one in the wrong.

If I misunderstood what jhendy said, then he’s just in the wrong as I am as he misunderstood what I said.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

xerxes.3496:

i just think that konig guy didnt want to admit it and was just trying to be more right. that is pretty mean

Thanks for the insult. BTW, I can say the same for jheryn too.

Honestly? I don’t give a kittening kitten if I’m right or wrong. You can prove me wrong go the right kitten ahead. I did not see jheryn saying he didn’t think mursaat were non-native, I saw him say “it’s possible… bit there’s nothing to support it.”

And right now? It feels like you’re trying to gang up on me and make me into the badguy for some kitten able reason I don’t know.

So I was wrong in what jheryn was saying? Alright, I was kittening wrong! But so would you be in how you interpreted what I wrote with the humans being the only confirmed non-natives.

This is all lovely and dandy and all that, but it’s really making me feel hated by the community even if it’s only two or three folks. So y’know what? Don’t want me around? You can just say it. Hate how I am? You can just kittening say it. To my face. Don’t have to make me look like an kitten first, or point how I’m “clearly” the only one in the wrong.

If I misunderstood what jhendy said, then he’s just in the wrong as I am as he misunderstood what I said.

i didnt mean to insult you. it was just my interpretation of the conversation between you and jheryn.

but now you are jumping me saying i am wrong about how i read your sentence. that hjorje guy also said he read the sentence the same way i did and jehryn did. no one is ganging up on you. i think we are all just telling you that you didnt word a sentence like you think you did. that is all.

i can understand how you took some of the things jheryn said the way you did. after re reading them i see some of your side. but in some of them he says they are most likely from tyria. in his last post he outright says he believes they are from tyria.

again i am sorry if i insulted you or made you feel bad. that was not my intent.

Lol, calm down you guys. Both of you have a point. So jheryn’s idea is a little more speculative and Konig’s is a little more lore-based, both of you have thrown out very good points.

No sense in having two brilliant minds killing each other over a misunderstanding, yes?

I always thought it would be cool if it turns out that the Asura were once slaves of the Mursaat.