Guild Wars 2

so now the devs literally say the non raiders only deserve scraps and they made the new raid focused in that way

BobbyStein

There’s a lot to discover in this raid’s cleared instance. Glenna should be available at the end. She’s got lots of info, will let you play the ending cinematic (spoiler!), etc. And you can do the narrative achievement, which will take some trial and error if you don’t know where to look

so kitten you the mayor playerbase nice

I don’t know how you arrived at your conclusion from that statement.

I think there is a lot of frustration around this particular topic in the community right now.

Unfortunately, as he has been the most willing to talk to us about it, Bobby has unfairly bore the brunt of that frustration.

I will just reiterate what I’ve said about this many times in the past two years (dating back to the CDI with Chris Whitesides) -

While the comments about cleared instances was made with the best of intentions, it really isn’t a solution to this problem. This isn’t a book. It isn’t a movie. In video games, the interactive elements are as much a part of the story as the narrative.

Without that interaction – without the player (and their friends) being the hero(s) of the story – then you are just giving us a second hand account of what happened, which is basically the same as a WoodenPotatoes video or a paragraph on the wiki.

I realize there is both community and developer resistance to multiple difficulty tiers or story modes, but the arguments against seem really thin – especially considering the inclusion of challenge motes for EVERY boss in the most recent raid wing.

That same process could be used to develop exactly what is needed to fix this issue. And it would be fun, add to the game and (very likely) get more people interested in the raiding experience.

I have used some harsh words this past week to describe Bobby’s quote – most prominently calling it an insult to our intelligence. While I still believe it to be exactly that, I do not place the onus for this on Bobby. In fact, I respect that he is willing to put himself out there and talk about this.

What needs to happen, however, hasn’t changed since many in the community asked for it in the CDI with Chris Whitesides two years ago. Raids need a more casual option – in every fight. It doesn’t have to be faceroll easy, but it should be much more accommodating and forgiving of extreme non meta playstyles.

Despite the tension, I am glad to see this topic remain top of mind – and even garner some coverage on sites like massivelyop. Hopefully management at Anet and within the raid team is paying attention.

though you can just ask in the raid lobby for someone with a cleared wing 4, and look at the lore that way. i understand people wanting an easier raid but as a disabled gamer i still clear raids each week. i think if you put the effort in to learn and get better raids get very easy

As a non raider i dont really feel screwed over. GW1 raids had decent stories and i remember no complaints back then. If anything, players are clamouring for their return, witha great deal of that attraction down to the story.

Ive caught up with the raid story via youtube and wiki which has satiated me. I can understand wanting further in game sources for the story and I think bloodstone fen recapped it all excellently with previous raids.

If I really wanted the experience, Id prob go and raid.

I wonder though, if the idea is to enter a cleared raid, perhaps we could pay an npc a significant gold sum to access the area. The npc could be a mercenary placeholder who had cleared it prior.

Maybe 200g or more with the npc appearing maybe 1-2 weeks post raid patch

Randulf.7614:

I wonder though, if the idea is to enter a cleared raid, perhaps we could pay an npc a significant gold sum to access the area. The npc could be a mercenary placeholder who had cleared it prior.

Maybe 200g or more with the npc appearing maybe 1-2 weeks post raid patch

The idea isn’t to enter a cleared raid. It isn’t even about hard versus easy. The idea is to provide the experience of being the hero in this particular story to PVE players regardless of their favorite playstyle, gear or experience with the game.

I realize that some don’t really care about that – that a WoodenPotatoes video is enough for them. That isn’t true of everyone and many are looking for a deeper raid experience without having to compromise on how they currently enjoy their characters and the game.

Blaeys.3102:

Randulf.7614:

I wonder though, if the idea is to enter a cleared raid, perhaps we could pay an npc a significant gold sum to access the area. The npc could be a mercenary placeholder who had cleared it prior.

Maybe 200g or more with the npc appearing maybe 1-2 weeks post raid patch

The idea isn’t to enter a cleared raid. It isn’t even about hard versus easy. The idea is to provide the experience of being the hero in this particular story to PVE players regardless of their favorite playstyle, gear or experience with the game.

I realize that some don’t really care about that – that a WoodenPotatoes video is enough for them. That isn’t true of everyone and many are looking for a deeper raid experience without having to compromise on how they currently enjoy their characters and the game.

My apologies, I meant if it is the devs intention for us to use cleared raids as access to story lore for non raiders then add in my idea.

I fully appreciate many will want a more fuller experience than that.

I think story mode raids would be cool, like how there are story mode dungeons.

Video games will almost inevitably take over from movies, novels and other forms to become the primary narrative platform of the 21st century. That, however, will happen with an entirely different set of mechanisms, not the legacy combat-related systems we are used to from what will soon come to resemble (at most)the “Silent Era” of cinema.

That said, even within the context of existing legacy gaming, having main story narrative in a multiplayer game locked behind minority-interest instanced combat is archaic. For a game that set out to “break the mold” of MMORPG gameplay it’s a particularly bizarre choice, since it appears to hark back to a design ethos that even the games GW2 set out to replace have long abandoned.

If idea really is to provide the relevant narrative by clicking on objects in a completed Raid instance then why not just have a permanent “completed” raid instance that anyone can access at any time, purely for the purpose of clicking on the objects?

Or perhaps someone could come up with a more appropriate way of distributing narrative elements altogether and leave the Raids as pure combat events?

Mypinkbunny.4513:

though you can just ask in the raid lobby for someone with a cleared wing 4, and look at the lore that way. i understand people wanting an easier raid but as a disabled gamer i still clear raids each week. i think if you put the effort in to learn and get better raids get very easy

I don’t think you grasp what raids are. Your contributions are insignificant given the fact that they’re designed for 10 people.

The first time I finished Sabetha, I just did typical chronomancer things and occasionally threw bombs at the people on the jump platforms while having no idea at all what the mid fight bosses did, and we had one person that died to the first flame wall (so basically it was 8 experienced players and one buff bot that just did basic things)

The first time I completed the escort it was with 5 people that I had just completed Spirit Vale with that hadn’t left afterwards. I had no idea what was going on, and they basically completed it with the five of them.

The first time I completed the Keep Construct I just gave people buffs and occasionally stood on a spot of light (and eventually noticed the orange/white buffs and started picking the right orbs up) while mechanics happened that I had no idea about because I hadn’t expected to do it, and thus hadn’t actually looked it up. (I’m guessing that the group that I did my first escort with apparently didn’t feel like looking for another chronomancer).

For most people, yes, the raids are easy for any particular person, but that’s not the issue for most. The fact that you’re disabled and managed to complete them doesn’t mean that just by getting better you can do them.

The most important thing about raids isn’t how good you are, but the people that you’re with. A cat could beat the raids if the others are competent, but not even the best player ever could do them solo.

The constant implication that the people that don’t beat the raids are unable to do so because they’re bad at the game is not only wrong, but also incredibly insulting.

Tiny Doom.4380:

Video games will almost inevitably take over from movies, novels and other forms to become the primary narrative platform of the 21st century. That, however, will happen with an entirely different set of mechanisms, not the legacy combat-related systems we are used to from what will soon come to resemble (at most)the “Silent Era” of cinema.

I disagree with that. It may seem that way from the perspective of computer gamers (like, everyone in this forum…) but I think there will always be people who prefer to sit back and listen/read/watch rather than take part in an interactive story, and even times when a gamer would prefer to do that rather than play a game. Just as movies didn’t displace novels, I expect both will continue as video games evolve.

draxynnic.3719:

Tiny Doom.4380:

Video games will almost inevitably take over from movies, novels and other forms to become the primary narrative platform of the 21st century. That, however, will happen with an entirely different set of mechanisms, not the legacy combat-related systems we are used to from what will soon come to resemble (at most)the “Silent Era” of cinema.

I disagree with that. It may seem that way from the perspective of computer gamers (like, everyone in this forum…) but I think there will always be people who prefer to sit back and listen/read/watch rather than take part in an interactive story, and even times when a gamer would prefer to do that rather than play a game. Just as movies didn’t displace novels, I expect both will continue as video games evolve.

Agreed. I myself will often switch between playing and reading something. I don’t doubt that gaming will only become more popular over time, people will always want to just read something instead of interact. Same goes for movies and the like.
I also greatly question the assertion about “legacy gaming systems” and how we’re in the “Silent Era”.

Still begging for scraps.
ANet has shown that they don’t care if the mass player base has access to what some argue is their best story telling. They simply don’t.
They and other people will say to LFG a cleared instance, but that in itself is begging. Then when that raid dies as newer ones come out, that story telling will just disappear to most people. With zero access to it.

Oh sure, you’ll have maybe an NPC lazily summarize the story in a future update like the last raid, but do you REALLY think that compares to running around exploring the map and looking at the lore pieces strewn about?

It will forever boggle my mind that developers think this is a good thing. To not have a super easy story mode, or simply after x amount of time give all players access to a cleared instance of the raid without needing to beg others for it. To either never experience their story or go on Youtube, outside their game, and find someone who’ll do a better job at presenting the story to the majority of the player base than ANet.

People should simply stop caring because ANet clearly doesn’t. And speak with your wallet in telling them how disappointed you are that they poorly chop up their best story behind walls you can’t get pst.

draxynnic.3719:

I disagree with that. It may seem that way from the perspective of computer gamers (like, everyone in this forum…) but I think there will always be people who prefer to sit back and listen/read/watch rather than take part in an interactive story, and even times when a gamer would prefer to do that rather than play a game. Just as movies didn’t displace novels, I expect both will continue as video games evolve.

Very true – and your response reminded me of something I read a long time ago. Douglas Adams used to talk a lot about this very topic when people gave him a hard time comparing the marked differences between his radio scripts, books and movie script for Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

I pulled a quote (one of many on this topic) from Wiki – “Generally, old media don’t die. They just have to grow old gracefully. Guess what, we still have stone masons. They haven’t been the primary purveyors of the written word for a while now of course, but they still have a role because you wouldn’t want a TV screen on your headstone.”

As it pertains to the topic at hand – the stories and lore told through these raids were written and developed for a video game. If they were retold through pure prose or video, they would be missing something very important (in this case, the interaction and position of the player as hero of the story). Just as with Adams’ headstone analogy, where a chisel by itself cannot create a moving picture, a moving picture (ingame video) cannot create that feeling of being the hero or level of interaction (and a cleared instance DEFINITELY cannot).

Hopefully, the developers are starting to understand that.

IMO, the diffculty on the raids is not as much in the skill level, as in the coordination level (Aka, time to spend talking). To ask for a 10 people team of well organized people is a huge filter that let A LOT of people of every skill level out of the experience.

Not giving a more PUGable option for the Raids, yet adding more and more lore to that game mode, is just wrong.

You know what the real problem is with raids?
It’s not about their requirements or that most players can’t play them because of that.
The problem is, that they are unique.
They provide a great dungeon crawler/ adventure experience with good storytelling. Lot’s of extra things and flavour to discover.
Great atmosphere.
Thanks to all the dialogue and interjections from the different players commenting about the environment they feel very alive.
You don’t have to do them in one sitting, as the instance remembers your progress even if you leave. (At least for a week)
With how large the individual maps are, you sometimes get the feeling it’s like an open world map made just for your little group to discover.
The whole presentation in raids just feels very well rounded with an epic story that isn’t split into lot’s of little instances and therefore giving of a very expansive vibe.
And all that combined makes raids in GW2 unique as there is nothing like it for the more casual crowd.
If we also had 5 man dungeons that were just like raids but a lot easier (like other lvl 80 dungeon in the game) way less people would complain. They still couldn’t play the raids themself, but they would have a casual friendly equivalent that’s just as good with it’s own unique stories and everything.
Just imagine if the regular dungeons in GW2 were like raids in their way of story telling, atmosphere and everything else…
Now that would be awesome.
So what we really need is a new “Dungeons 2.0” generation that are built like raids, but with a lower difficulty in mind.

BobbyStein.2315:

bettalykan.3429:

so now the devs literally say the non raiders only deserve scraps and they made the new raid focused in that way

No, I merely pointed out what is currently available for non-raiders to catch up on the raid story while inside the game. More than happy to answer your questions, but in the future I’d appreciate it if you didn’t paraphrase my intentions that way. Because that’s not what I said, nor what I meant.

Your statement above is in direct contradiction to your comments in the recent MMORPG interview you and Crystal Reid did -

http://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/interviews/the-demons-of-bastion-of-the-penitent-1000011552

You cant claim that a cleared instance provides the same experience and then make statements about how you integrated story into every element – how it doesn’t matter if players play for the challenge or the thrill of discovery, they will still find something fun.

It comes across as disingenuous and, frankly, as marketing doublespeak (intentional or not) – simply telling people what they want to hear to placate them.

You had 4 living story releases full of content/story with a nice release pace, what are you complaining about? Forgot about the story releases, the maps (also full of story and lore if you take the time for it), the fractals?

ancientoak.4258:

You had 4 living story releases full of content/story with a nice release pace, what are you complaining about? Forgot about the story releases, the maps (also full of story and lore if you take the time for it), the fractals?

There really isn’t anything to complain about however i can see why they would be somewhat disgruntled, the raid in my opinion is dealing with much more interesting lore and even looks a lot more interesting as it gets to branch off into many smaller stories and as they are not as linear as the story we aren’t 100% sure what the next instance will contain.

I don’t raid but i do participate in fractals and have found the story there much more interesting than the main plot.

Aswell as the story having some rough early episodes dealing with the dragon and the characters going through the conflict stage there is this overall perceived large gap of quality which appears.

These problems will easily be remidied when the main plot gets more interesting and out of the slow process of setup, as well as overall improvements to enemy encounters and atmosphere.

I have to say, I’m a little disappointed by Soul’s story being wrapped up in a raid. This is a massive story to GW1 players. I don’t have time to raid. I don’t it is that simple. I would love to do that but I don’t have the time, and I don’t think I ever will. If Raids are going to keep having these lore rich story’s. Then they need to have a story mode. I’m not saying people get the same loot as Raids. No. You want that loot you raid. But being shut out of a massive story like this, feels wrong to me. Sure I can get a fellow guild member to open it for me. I did so today. But you don’t get the same feeling for the story watching cinematic replays, or walking around an empty map. I love that we finaly have closure on Saul. I also think it was done right. But doing big lore story’s like this just wrong.

I don’t understand why are people so upset about raids having a good-quality, significant storyline. I don’t want raids to have some quick made up stories that don’t matter. Just play the content or watch videos of the dialogues if you want to see it. Earn it and don’t whine.

“Raids are essentially side stories, and while they may sometimes share themes with other content they are not part of the core Guild Wars 2 narrative. Because of that, we can tackle darker or more mature topics that don’t fit elsewhere in the game: failure, guilt, betrayal, and struggles for redemption.”

These topics don’t fit in living world stories?

The first MMO I played was World of Warcraft back in 2007. At no point back then or any time since would anyone have accused me of being a great player, but I got by. I made it through (and still do) on solo play and small group dungeons, but it was the stories that kept me playing.

I was fascinated by this new (to me) way of participating in a narrative. There were drawbacks, of course, and one of those was that the culmination of every story happened in the big expansion-ending raid. On one level, it made sense to me that the finale would have to be bigger than anything else, but on another, it was annoying that I could spend all this time and effort in the game only to be left on the sidelines at the end. I could read about the story, I could watch video from other players, but I was not good enough to take part like I had up until there.

I have had similar experiences in other games since, but not quite to that extent and not (yet) with Guild Wars. I do remember the reaction some players had to ending the personal story with a dungeon, though. People who had solo’d up until that point and had no interest in dungeons were all of a sudden left having to either skip the end, watch it through others like I did with WoW, or change their playstyle and try something that, to them, may not have been fun. I understand how they felt, but at least I knew GW2 had dungeons and had story in those dungeons, so it was part of the landscape I expected.

Now, coming back to the game after some time away, I find that landscape changed. I have not looked too deeply into how the story is told through or affected by the raids (I am still catching up and don’t want to risk too many spoilers), but I am starting to fear I’ll find the same situation I was in all those years ago in WoW. Which, if that is what the development team wants, then it is what it is. Just don’t pretend it is accessible to players like me who are not good enough to be (or just don’t enjoy) playing in raids.

I can hope there are better, clearer answers by the time I get up to where this will matter. If not, I’ll just have to accept that “This is my story” was only going to take us so far and the game’s story is not always going to evolve in a way suited to my ability to play it.

BobbyStein.2315:

Blaeys.3102:

BobbyStein.2315:

bettalykan.3429:

so now the devs literally say the non raiders only deserve scraps and they made the new raid focused in that way

No, I merely pointed out what is currently available for non-raiders to catch up on the raid story while inside the game. More than happy to answer your questions, but in the future I’d appreciate it if you didn’t paraphrase my intentions that way. Because that’s not what I said, nor what I meant.

Your statement above is in direct contradiction to your comments in the recent MMORPG interview you and Crystal Reid did -

http://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/interviews/the-demons-of-bastion-of-the-penitent-1000011552

You cant claim that a cleared instance provides the same experience and then make statements about how you integrated story into every element – how it doesn’t matter if players play for the challenge or the thrill of discovery, they will still find something fun.

It comes across as disingenuous and, frankly, as marketing doublespeak (intentional or not) – simply telling people what they want to hear to placate them.

I replied to this over on Reddit but I’ll paste it here, too, since I think people should understand the context of my statements.

“I think you’re reading into my quotes a little too much. By ‘integrating story into every element’ I mean that the environment is a reflection of the story, the audio is an expression of the story. By the team collaborating across the board, we made the experience feel cohesive. The story bits are mostly told outside the encounters, save for the dialog during the Deimos fight (which is similar to how we handled Spirit Vale). The bulk of the story dialog is told between encounters, and all of the discoverables are available in a cleared instance.

Not trying to convince people either way, or belittle anyone’s feelings about the raids. I just wanted to clarify that part because it seems like the intention of my comment was unclear to you."

Thank you. Likewise, I will carry my response over from reddit -

“I’m not trying to belittle your work in terms of its creativity or appeal. In fact, if I didn’t think it was good, I wouldn’t care as much.

When you do something like this right, all of the elements come together to deliver the story – and that includes the fights themselves. Take any piece of that away (entering a cleared instance is taking big chunks of it away) and the result is considerably different than it was likely intended.

Again, the medium dictates how the story is delivered to a degree, and in this case, the medium centers in large part around the encounters – how the bosses look, feel and interact with the player (leaving the player with a sense of being the hero), making them integral to the story.

That is what I read from your comments in the article, but that may be because it is something I expect from this kind of content. And, it is why the idea of a cleared instance, video or NPC dialogue will never be a viable replacement for accessible interactive raid content.

As long as there is story in raids in any form, this is going to be an issue, in my opinion. It is time to take the lesson from most other successful raiding MMOs and add tiers to the raids (which could be as simple as incorporating story motes similar to the challenge motes you already use)."

Sublimatio.6981:

I don’t understand why are people so upset about raids having a good-quality, significant storyline. I don’t want raids to have some quick made up stories that don’t matter. Just play the content or watch videos of the dialogues if you want to see it. Earn it and don’t whine.

Really? You don’t see it? The story telling in Raids seems to be amazing. Not to mention covering some of the biggest lore story’s in Guild Wars. But if you can’t raid for what ever reason. I simply don’t have the time. My life will not allow it, you miss out big time. This story is something I’ve wanted to know the end of for ages. But guess what. I can’t raid so I can’t enjoy the story telling. Many people have been asking for a story mode to the Raids since they came out. Most if not all the people asking for the story modes want just that. The story. Not the raid rewards, just the ability to enjoy the story with out having to be all hard-core raider.

But if ANET do not wish to do that. Add a clear mode or something already. So people who want to look around and enjoy the story can, and not have to rely on the kindness of others to open a clear raid for them.

Blaeys.3102:

When you do something like this right, all of the elements come together to deliver the story – and that includes the fights themselves. Take any piece of that away (entering a cleared instance is taking big chunks of it away) and the result is considerably different than it was likely intended.

You saying the encounters tell a bigger part of the story than the environment, does not make it right when you compare it to the statement of the Narrative Lead who designed it. Bobby quite literally said the environment was by far the biggest lore for the side-story than anything the encounters had. We’ve got quotes from the encounters in question that indicate how little the encounter conveys.

There was an interesting proposition on the reddit where someone suggested that to help out those who cannot clear the raids, something of a ‘Trailer’ or ‘Cinematic’ showing a group facing off against the encounters in question to give those who can’t do the fight themselves a sense of scale of the encounter. I actually think that would be an excellent compromise.

But the moment you create an instance of an encounter that is fundamentally weaker than the real thing, immediately kills the immersion and threat the encounter had regardless of difficulty.

Sykper.6583:

But the moment you create an instance of an encounter that is fundamentally weaker than the real thing, immediately kills the immersion and threat the encounter had regardless of difficulty.

People keep saying this, but it really is ridiculous.

A slightly altered version you never see and never do will not ruin your immersion unless you choose to let it do so. And, even if it did, that would be more on you than the game.

And, by using that same logic, you’re essentially saying they should remove the challenge motes currently in the game – and never add any challenge above what is initially shipped – otherwise it messes with immersion.

Surely people see how silly that idea is.

Blaeys.3102:

People keep saying this, but it really is ridiculous.

It fundamentally turns those encounters into something less organic. This isn’t a ridiculous claim.

Blaeys.3102:

A slightly altered version you never see and never do will not ruin your immersion unless you choose to let it do so. And, even if it did, that would be more on you than the game.

Excluding the factor of which you mean by slightly altered, the perception of the enemy in question is irrevocably changed. It’s no longer ’It’s Deimos, he’s a terribly hard to kill demon that we have to overcome!’ instead we get ‘Oh Deimos is easy, whatever. Oh wait you meant Raid-Mode Deimos? Oh wow that’s crazy!’

We no longer get a single powerful being, we get a fake version that hurts the image of the real deal. It’s not even on the player, it’s how players would see future raiding, in terms of inorganic terms like Easy-Mode, and Hard-Mode. No more saying the fight names until the scale is mentioned first.

Blaeys.3102:

And, by using that same logic, you’re essentially saying they should remove the challenge motes currently in the game – and never add any challenge above what is initially shipped – otherwise it messes with immersion.

Surely people see how silly that idea is.

I kind of agree with the challenge mote removal, I would rather the encounter have things like Slippery Slubling being around instead of some static floating blue fire saying ‘OH NOW YOU CAN FIGHT KC IN A SMALLER ROOM! THIS IS A GAME HAHA!’

At least Challenge Mote Nightmare changes it up by introducing some ominous NPC character at a ridiculous level with a unique influence on the fractal. But yea, I do dislike the challenge motes a bit.

Sykper.6583:

inorganic terms like Easy-Mode, and Hard-Mode.

How is this any different than T1 or T2 fractal or story/explorable mode dungeon.

All of a sudden, people are trying to make it seem like tiered difficulty content is somehow new to GW2 or videogames.

It’s not.

Almost every video game out there has this kind of system in place – because it works. People don’t play Doom on hard mode and think to themselves, “wow, that would have been a better experience if other people weren’t able to play on easy mode.”

People understand the difference between the levels – they respect the challenge it takes to complete the higher levels (often because they have seen the easier levels for themselves and can now envision what it might mean).

Using this as an argument against the idea of tiered difficulty is a thin argument with no real basis in game design.

Blaeys.3102:

When you do something like this right, all of the elements come together to deliver the story – and that includes the fights themselves. Take any piece of that away (entering a cleared instance is taking big chunks of it away) and the result is considerably different than it was likely intended.

Again, the medium dictates how the story is delivered to a degree, and in this case, the medium centers in large part around the encounters – how the bosses look, feel and interact with the player (leaving the player with a sense of being the hero), making them integral to the story.

I don’t raid, but I enjoyed the cleared instance, and I felt that I got all the important bits from it. I was also able to live with YouTube videos to experience Forsaken Thicket and I’d certainly play an easy mode raid if there was one. I don’t really have a horse in this race.

This line of thought interests me, though. If it’s true that every aspect of the raid adds to the atmosphere and story- and I believe it does- doesn’t that include the group play? The daunting difficulty? I admit I’ve not paid much attention, but my understanding is that the mechanics of the bosses usually require the team to divvy up tasks. For the systems that you can’t expect a single player to handle, regardless of difficulty, there’s really only one option: remove them, dumb the fight down. Wouldn’t it lose something then? Likewise, would a boss that a single player can beat leave the same feeling as one that took ten heroes to bring down? Would a boss that you can beat while playing poorly convey the same tone, even if you don’t think you can play any better?

I think you’re on to something when you say the encounters are an integral piece of the raid, but I wonder if reducing them might not have the same effect as not experiencing them at all.

Blaeys.3102:

How is this any different than T1 or T2 fractal or story/explorable mode dungeon.

Because the basic premise of GW2 Raids has from the onset, been being the hardest PvE content in the game. That’s what they were advertised for, they cannot go below that lest they betray the content they were designed to be.

Blaeys.3102:

All of a sudden, people are trying to make it seem like tiered difficulty content is somehow new to GW2 or videogames.

It’s not.

And there are a multitude of factors for why different difficulties have success, and failures in video games. Not everything needs an easier difficulty. Not everything needs a hard-mode. I would argue some Story-mode dungeons are a harder path than the explorable.

Blaeys.3102:

Almost every video game out there has this kind of system in place – because it works. People don’t play Doom on hard mode and think to themselves, “wow, that would have been a better experience if other people weren’t able to play on easy mode.”

Not unusually, some of these older games reward true endings for harder difficulties. Contra comes to mind when you do ‘hard-modes’ yet no one complained about endings not being made available on an easier difficulty.

Blaeys.3102:

People understand the difference between the levels – they respect the challenge it takes to complete the higher levels (often because they have seen the easier levels for themselves and can now envision what it might mean).

Using this as an argument against the idea of tiered difficulty is a thin argument with no real basis in game design.

It’s fine to respect the challenge, it’s even fine to understand the physical rewards behind the increased challenge. But ultimately the story-mode suggestion suffers from:

- Reducing the authenticity of the intent of raids
- Reducing the immersion for foes within raids being threatening
- Costing precious resources to develop

Sykper.6583:

- Reducing the authenticity of the intent of raids
- Reducing the immersion for foes within raids being threatening
- Costing precious resources to develop

It doesn’t do any of these things if you aren’t actually in the instance with the lower difficulty boss.

And the arguments around taking a ton of extra resources went out the window the second they included challenge motes in BoTP. Make the baseline raid much harder (even than the current CMs) and use the mote mechanic to provide the story experience. No additional resources spent and everyone is (or should be) happier.

Blaeys.3102:

It doesn’t do any of these things if you aren’t actually in the instance with the lower difficulty boss.

Do you know the raiding philosophy behind all progression or even new raiders?

There’s a common theme, a very sensible one in fact. Information is the key to winning the battle. The most hardcore of raiders do not go straight into the hardest difficulty of the raid without seeing if there is an easier mode. They need to understand what the enemy can do, what it is capable of, and work from there.

Imagine if what you proposed was accepted, all raiding guilds would 100% absolutely start off with the easier mode to gain an understanding of the base mechanics. From there they formulate their strategies, make attempts and proceed as planned. The only thing they’ve utterly LOST from the entire thing is that they have already killed the boss in question. They are now making attempts at a harder inflated difficulty they set themselves for some reason. Better loot perhaps? That’s the likely cause, but already at this point a major appeal was lost. How truly powerful the foe was, it becomes diluted…

They lost the impact of killing the boss on its own terms because they sought an easier means to progress, because it was made available as a mechanic scale they can just toggle. As much as you want to have this discourse, the fact remains that once you make any system where a boss is rendered into difficulty modes, it loses an organic feel and becomes less immersive. This is not something that can be debated, it happens regardless of whatever way you see to bring it about.

Which brings me to the question at hand, and something that keeps getting dodged. Why are you demanding these changes for story content that is extremely irrelevant, even on its own, to the main story of GW2? It has been brought up time and time again that it is purely optional, as long as it doesn’t directly interfere with the Elder Dragon Storyline we’ve been going through. What is at stake here really?

Then don’t introduce the story mode until a month or so later. Heck, even set it so it doesn’t unlock until it’s been successfully completed X times in the original mode. By the time a few weeks have passed after the first few successes, there’ll be guides posted everywhere and raiders will be using those anyway.

I daresay well over 90% of people even in the raiding community don’t experience it by trial and error as you say – they read the guides, then practice what’s in the guide until they succeed. The ‘thrill of discovery’ you talk about only lasts for a week or so after a new wing is released.

Sykper.6583:

But the moment you create an instance of an encounter that is fundamentally weaker than the real thing, immediately kills the immersion and threat the encounter had regardless of difficulty.

Uhhhh… The feeling of immersion based on the difficulty of what you’re fighting has been a case of ‘suspension of disbelief’ since raids were introduced, and possibly back to the release of the game with open world bosses that grow stronger when more players arrive.

Consider: In the story, we go into an Elder Dragon’s mind and kill it from the inside on terrain that was pretty much of its own choosing. This is a fairly hard instance, especially solo, although it has to be said that some of the difficulty is due to bugs. Even then, some people consider that the ‘challenge mote’ version of the instance is a more accurate reflection of what that was like lore-wise.

Now, compare that to raid bosses. For Mordremoth, you’re going in with up to 5 players and two NPCs (you can get more allies later, but that’s part of the mechanics of the encounter). Meanwhile, for the raids, you need 10 people. Are you really saying that entities such as Slothasor and Gorseval, which only became as powerful as they did due to being empowered by Mordremoth’s death, are legitimately a more difficult battle than Mordremoth lore-wise? Highly unlikely. And it’s going to get even more ridiculous if, as many people suspect, we end up fighting Lazarus sometime in the story, probably in a step that can be soloed: are we really going to claim that a few bloodstone-empowered humans are actually more powerful than the product of their efforts that swallowed an entire Bloodstone?

The raid bosses are mechanically difficult because they wanted hard content, but the very concept requires a certain degree of suspension of disbelief: you have to suspend your disbelief that these raid bosses are actually stronger than things we take out in personal story, dungeons, and so on that lorewise would be more powerful. (Putting aside Zhaitan, because, well, we all know that’s a bad encounter, and even beside that, we’re not fighting him without a giant airship and the rest of the Pact fleet.)

A lot of people already headcanon that when you’re raiding, you’re not actually playing the part of the Pact Commander, but some random Pact soldier or mercenary that just happens to be present. You could consider a ‘story mode’ for the raids to essentially be “no, really, this IS the Pact Commander and allies of comparable power, not a bunch of nobodies well outside their depth”.

draxynnic.3719:

A lot of people already headcanon that when you’re raiding, you’re not actually playing the part of the Pact Commander, but some random Pact soldier or mercenary that just happens to be present. You could consider a ‘story mode’ for the raids to essentially be “no, really, this IS the Pact Commander and allies of comparable power, not a bunch of nobodies well outside their depth”.

To be fair, it’s not entirely headcanon. IIRC, at the start of Stronghold of the Faithful Glenna attributes the first two wings to a band of mercenaries who happened along.

Walls of Text OP, shortened things down.

draxynnic.3719:

Then don’t introduce the story mode until a month or so later…

I daresay well over 90% of people even in the raiding community don’t experience it by trial and error as you say…

It is still something you would have to actively spend development resources from the raiding team on (more delay on new releases), and can cause bugs for earlier raid content (another delay aspect). All for content that I guarantee to you isn’t relevant to the majority of GW2 players because believe it or not, a lot of players in GW2 haven’t played GW1! Shock, surprise!

What I want is to keep Raids where they are at because that is what they are supposed to be, without impacting their development more than we’ve already seen it being strained, and providing at least something for those in the community who can’t raid to at least grasp. We already have the cleared instance of raids having just about all the lore tid-bits you need. I think the suggestion for maybe a ‘retelling cinematic’ by Glenna on each boss would be a great way to help finish out that experience for those who clearly can’t do the encounters.

draxynnic.3719:

Uhhhh… The feeling of immersion based on the difficulty of what you’re fighting has been a case of ‘suspension of disbelief’ since raids were introduced, and possibly back to the release of the game with open world bosses that grow stronger when more players arrive.

Past examples do not negate future attempts. Raids right now are very authentic content because they aren’t being completely mitigated by those factors you described here.

draxynnic.3719:

Consider: In the story, we go into an Elder Dragon’s mind and kill it from the inside on terrain that was pretty much of its own choosing…

You would also be wrong because lore-wise there was a single commander who took only a choice between two companions inside to fight Mordremoth. The whole party-mode thing is just an achievement for those interested in trying the last story as a dungeon so to speak. It’s not canon.

draxynnic.3719:

Now, compare that to raid bosses. For Mordremoth, you’re going in with up to 5 players and two NPCs (you can get more allies later, but that’s part of the mechanics of the encounter)…

The comparison is already gone but whatever. If you have been paying attention at all to the raid-lore, a Pact Squad was sent into the Forsaken Thicket and did all the things there. If you were involved in saving Bennett from Matthias, Bennett will comment on the fact you were in that squad in Bloodstone Fen, otherwise he’ll simply reiterate a pact squad saved him. Furthermore you have to bear in mind that as the commander we are leading a scrambled assault on Mordremoth with still our massive forces. We aren’t soloing everything here, the Pact had to hold back Mordremoth’s physical body while we snuck in to try to find a way to end that Elder Dragon permanently.

draxynnic.3719:

The raid bosses are mechanically difficult because they wanted hard content, but the very concept requires a certain degree of suspension of disbelief…

There’s two sides to this, if we didn’t raid the Forsaken Thicket, a single pact squad taking down the entire three wings would indicate to us that either A ) that pact squad was extremely competent compared to our other NPCs or B ) the foes inside were not that impressive. If we break through that wall and as the commander, lead 9 other pact members (your raidmates) into the wings, we get the truth of the raid story.

We run into enemies and foes unfamiliar to Tyria for decades, encounter things beyond this world. Something that even the Commander leading a squad of others would struggle against definitely. That’s the justification, and especially why it is justified for the latest Raid to require our services again, because the Mursaat involvement into fighting literally demons. I assume you are familiar with how Demons are treated in Guild Wars lore?

draxynnic.3719:

A lot of people already headcanon that when you’re raiding, you’re not actually playing the part of the Pact Commander, but some random Pact soldier or mercenary that just happens to be present…

Their head-canon would be inaccurate but not wrong, because Bennett could remark on you as the commander leading the efforts of that pact squad into the Forsaken Thicket after the events of Mordremoth’s defeat if you got involved. It’s a story in between the events of HoT and LS3, but at the end of it we were left with more questions than answers, the nature of the Mursaat Lazarus still left in the air like before we went into the thicket. Until LS3 landed, but now that’s being left up in the air courtesy of the last Confessor.

And finally if you didn’t raid, because Bennett remarks that a single pact squad cleared it out, that’s why people will say raiders would be just pact soldiers. The pact soldiers cleared it out, “I as the commander who cannot do the Thicket did not get involved…” And that would be correct.

Sykper.6583:

It is still something you would have to actively spend development resources from the raiding team on (more delay on new releases), and can cause bugs for earlier raid content (another delay aspect). All for content that I guarantee to you isn’t relevant to the majority of GW2 players because believe it or not, a lot of players in GW2 haven’t played GW1! Shock, surprise!

Tweaking the numbers is a low-hanging fruit.

At the moment, we’ve had quite a few development resources going into the raids that’s just not been relevant to the rest of the player base (in fact, I suspect that holding back the start of LS3 until the first raid was done has probably hurt player retention after HoT). Making an easier mode so that the results of that work is relevant to everyone else is low-hanging fruit: it’s a relatively small amount of work that magnifies the accessibility, and hence the impact of work they’ve already done.

Cleared instances, incidentally, are no match for seeing what actually happens. It’s like the difference between an archaeological expedition and actually being there: you might be able to get an idea from the evidence left behind, but it’s never going to be the same and some of your conclusions may well be wrong.

Past examples do not negate future attempts. Raids right now are very authentic content because they aren’t being completely mitigated by those factors you described here.

They’re still following the same philosophy, though. Raids were planned in HoT’s development, but HoT still has things that can be soloed (with difficulty, but soloed nevertheless) in personal story, and then when they (or something equivalent) shows up in the open world, it takes a zerg to take them on. Jade constructs in Episode 1 personal story instances were easier to take on than any of the open world constructs at the time (although Episode 2 did introduce constructs that were only veteran-level in the mursaat ruins). And more examples are below…

You would also be wrong because lore-wise there was a single commander who took only a choice between two companions inside to fight Mordremoth. The whole party-mode thing is just an achievement for those interested in trying the last story as a dungeon so to speak. It’s not canon.

Y’know? I was actually trying to be generous there, in order to reduce how ridiculous the comparison was. Now we’ve got Mordremoth being mind-killed by three people… making it not about as difficult as fighting a typical open-world champion, let alone a world boss. So now we’ve got the conclusion that killing McLeod the Silent is more difficult than going into an Elder Dragon’s mind and killing it from within.

Yes, we had the Pact distracting Mordremoth outside… but that pretty much just meant that we were able to get there in the first place. Mordremoth wasn’t particularly threatened by the Mouth of Mordremoth being destroyed – he’d just grow another one – but it did serve to divert his attention and that of his forces so we could get to Trahearne.

Sykper.6583:

I assume you are familiar with how Demons are treated in Guild Wars lore?

Pffffft. Hahahahah. Yes. Please. I’ve been in the lore community for a long time.

A “demon”, in Guild Wars lore, is simply a creature spawned by the Mists, or substantially changed using energy from the Mists, which has malevolent intentions (and even that last part may not actually be required, which would make Razah a demon, but Razah has never been described as one). They vary in power from pipsqueaks (imps are classified as demons) to extremely powerful individuals like Mallyx, Kanaxai, and the Black Beast. However, none of those were Elder Dragon levels of power. At that level of power, you’re starting to get to the level of dark gods, like the hinted at but never officially confirmed Arachnia. I’d be really disappointed with ArenaNet if it is actually canon that a demon god of that level just happened to be Saul’s jailor.

It’s a story in between the events of HoT and LS3, but at the end of it we were left with more questions than answers, the nature of the Mursaat Lazarus still left in the air like before we went into the thicket. Until LS3 landed, but now that’s being left up in the air courtesy of the last Confessor.

Doesn’t really matter if he’s the real Lazarus or not – he still consumed an entire bloodstone, which should make him more powerful than Matthias or Xera, which were simply empowered by them.

If it turns out that Lazarus, fake or not, is a villain in the end, I’ll bet we’ll fight him in a story instance, and I bet he’ll be easier than the raid fights even with a challenge mote.

And finally if you didn’t raid, because Bennett remarks that a single pact squad cleared it out, that’s why people will say raiders would be just pact soldiers. The pact soldiers cleared it out, “I as the commander who cannot do the Thicket did not get involved…” And that would be correct.

So what you’re saying here is that the Pact has ten nameless soldiers that are more powerful than the Pact Commander?

Great! Jormag and Primordus should be no threat then – Glenna’s boys and girls will tackle them with one hand tied behind each of their backs. If they’d been spared, McLeod and Sabetha could probably solo an Elder Dragon. Each.

draxynnic.3719:

Tweaking the numbers is a low-hanging fruit.

To what extent? You are likely underestimating how bad the average skill of the player is. If we go the low-hanging fruit, be prepared to have a lesser than Living Story level of difficulty, aka Core Tyria. That’ll leave an impression for content being the hardest in the game right?

draxynnic.3719:

At the moment, we’ve had quite a few development resources going into the raids that’s just not been relevant to the rest of the player base (in fact, I suspect that holding back the start of LS3 until the first raid was done has probably hurt player retention after HoT). Making an easier mode so that the results of that work is relevant to everyone else is low-hanging fruit: it’s a relatively small amount of work that magnifies the accessibility, and hence the impact of work they’ve already done.

All of this is acting on presumptions you can’t possibly know. Starting from the very first sentence is something you cannot prove. Good try though. As far as the devs have told us, there is only around 5 or a few more dedicated raid devs.

draxynnic.3719:

Cleared instances, incidentally, are no match for seeing what actually happens. It’s like the difference between an archaeological expedition and actually being there: you might be able to get an idea from the evidence left behind, but it’s never going to be the same and some of your conclusions may well be wrong.

Which is why I suggested we do something like a trailer or cinematic retelling of these epic encounters. Bridge this gap closer without sacrificing the content. And yes, an easier difficulty is sacrificing the content, no different than adding a PvE mode to SPvP.

draxynnic.3719:

They’re still following the same philosophy, though. Raids were planned in HoT’s development, but HoT still has things that can be soloed (with difficulty, but soloed nevertheless) in personal story, and then when they (or something equivalent) shows up in the open world, it takes a zerg to take them on. Jade constructs in Episode 1 personal story instances were easier to take on than any of the open world constructs at the time (although Episode 2 did introduce constructs that were only veteran-level in the mursaat ruins). And more examples are below…

Stop comparing the open world to personal story. That’s the first mistake you are making, in the personal story which is canon, you are the Commander who has done more than current canon characters like Destiny’s Edge in terms of smacking down Elder Dragons. It’s actually rather scary how powerful you are, almost beyond mortal honestly on your own. Kind of why you are able to take on dragons and their minions like Mouth of Zhaitan or the Sovereign Eye back in the day.

In the open world? You have a bit less power, mainly because Arenanet has the perilous job of making you and everyone around you playing as the Commander. It is why you can get killed by a champion Mordrem Sniper fairly quickly.

draxynnic.3719:

Y’know? I was actually trying to be generous there, in order to reduce how ridiculous the comparison was. Now we’ve got Mordremoth being mind-killed by three people… making it not about as difficult as fighting a typical open-world champion, let alone a world boss. So now we’ve got the conclusion that killing McLeod the Silent is more difficult than going into an Elder Dragon’s mind and killing it from within.

Again, you just can’t compare open world and personal story. Stop it. The narrative being delivered is mechanically behind the two are utterly different and thus impossible to measure.

draxynnic.3719:

Yes, we had the Pact distracting Mordremoth outside… but that pretty much just meant that we were able to get there in the first place. Mordremoth wasn’t particularly threatened by the Mouth of Mordremoth being destroyed – he’d just grow another one – but it did serve to divert his attention and that of his forces so we could get to Trahearne.

Which is just another weakness these Elder Dragons have, they underestimate the races or at least the commander. But this is not unusual, they are forces of nature more or less.

Sykper.6583:

draxynnic.3719:

At the moment, we’ve had quite a few development resources going into the raids that’s just not been relevant to the rest of the player base (in fact, I suspect that holding back the start of LS3 until the first raid was done has probably hurt player retention after HoT). Making an easier mode so that the results of that work is relevant to everyone else is low-hanging fruit: it’s a relatively small amount of work that magnifies the accessibility, and hence the impact of work they’ve already done.

All of this is acting on presumptions you can’t possibly know. Starting from the very first sentence is something you cannot prove. Good try though. As far as the devs have told us, there is only around 5 or a few more dedicated raid devs.

Resources put into building a raid:

1) Creating the maps. The cumulative size of the wings of raid 1 is about the size of a HoT map, albeit admittedly without the multiple levels.
2) Making the models for the enemies (although some can be, and are, reused).
3) Designing and implementing the mechanics.
4) Setting the numbers so that they produce the desired level of challenge.
5) Testing that the appropriate level of challenge has been reached.

Setting a different level of challenge is simply a matter of repeating step 4, and possibly 5, while implementing a method of selecting a level of challenge (motes!).

I’ve talked to people who are involved in modding and game design, and compared to steps 1-3, step 4 is low-hanging fruit (and step 5 can be done after release and feedback from the community). We already see it in Bastion with the challenge motes. Oh, and the entirety of Guild Wars 1 since the introduction of Hard Mode.

Which is why I suggested we do something like a trailer or cinematic retelling of these epic encounters. Bridge this gap closer without sacrificing the content. And yes, an easier difficulty is sacrificing the content, no different than adding a PvE mode to SPvP.

I’d say it’s far less of a sacrifice then turning it into a video. Plus, an easier mode might actually be closer to the lore of what happened. Do you really think it’s in the lore that the raiders were defeated over and over again, somehow being recovered to try again each time, until they eventually learned their enemies’ tactics (which never changed) until they could overcome them?

Stop comparing the open world to personal story. That’s the first mistake you are making, in the personal story which is canon, you are the Commander who has done more than current canon characters like Destiny’s Edge in terms of smacking down Elder Dragons. It’s actually rather scary how powerful you are, almost beyond mortal honestly on your own. Kind of why you are able to take on dragons and their minions like Mouth of Zhaitan or the Sovereign Eye back in the day.

In the open world? You have a bit less power, mainly because Arenanet has the perilous job of making you and everyone around you playing as the Commander. It is why you can get killed by a champion Mordrem Sniper fairly quickly.

This is my entire point.

There is no lore relevance to the mechanical power levels of enemies in different modes. This goes for raids as much as it does in the personal story. It’s all about ArenaNet setting things to the level of difficulty they consider to be appropriate for gameplay, not lore, reasons. The PCs in the raids are considered to be less powerful than in the personal story just as the PCs in the open world are considered to be less powerful.

Setting a lower difficulty level is not compromising the story, because the difficulty level has always been about gameplay, not story. It would just be a matter of assuming a higher power level for the PCs – on the level of being the Pact Commander and friends rather than nameless Pact soldiers.

draxynnic.3719:

Pffffft. Hahahahah. Yes. Please. I’ve been in the lore community for a long time.

A “demon”, in Guild Wars lore, is simply a creature spawned by the Mists, or substantially changed using energy from the Mists, which has malevolent intentions (and even that last part may not actually be required, which would make Razah a demon, but Razah has never been described as one). They vary in power from pipsqueaks (imps are classified as demons) to extremely powerful individuals like Mallyx, Kanaxai, and the Black Beast. However, none of those were Elder Dragon levels of power. At that level of power, you’re starting to get to the level of dark gods, like the hinted at but never officially confirmed Arachnia. I’d be really disappointed with ArenaNet if it is actually canon that a demon god of that level just happened to be Saul’s jailor.

Which again processes the whole ‘how narrative is delivered across the content’. Are you surprised that someone the commander has issues in dungeons taking down Lupi, or a Legendary Spider exists in AC? Processing a enemy’s power as universal across all content is not gonna work.

draxynnic.3719:

Doesn’t really matter if he’s the real Lazarus or not – he still consumed an entire bloodstone, which should make him more powerful than Matthias or Xera, which were simply empowered by them.

If it turns out that Lazarus, fake or not, is a villain in the end, I’ll bet we’ll fight him in a story instance, and I bet he’ll be easier than the raid fights even with a challenge mote.

We will absolutely, main-storyline and all. That should be kept in the main story, but Raids tell side-stories. They enhance the world of Tyria, but aren’t relevant to the main story of GW2 where we have to slay the dragons.

draxynnic.3719:

So what you’re saying here is that the Pact has ten nameless soldiers that are more powerful than the Pact Commander?

Great! Jormag and Primordus should be no threat then – Glenna’s boys and girls will tackle them with one hand tied behind each of their backs. If they’d been spared, McLeod and Sabetha could probably solo an Elder Dragon. Each.

I mean we could have a separate discussion about narrative in MMOs and how it is delivered across solo, group, and zerg content. But I know you probably understand why what you said is utterly ridiculous.

Sykper.6583:

Which again processes the whole ‘how narrative is delivered across the content’. Are you surprised that someone the commander has issues in dungeons taking down Lupi, or a Legendary Spider exists in AC? Processing a enemy’s power as universal across all content is not gonna work.

Again, exactly my point. The raid bosses are not hard because lore-wise they’re more powerful than the likes of Lupicus (they may or may not be, but we really don’t know). They’re harder purely because they were designed for a piece of content that is intended to be more challenging.

Making an easier version is no more of a compromise to the story than fractals scaling up for no clear lore reason. There is no story reason not to have an easier mode for the raids.

draxynnic.3719:

Making an easier version is no more of a compromise to the story than fractals scaling up for no clear lore reason. There is no story reason not to have an easier mode for the raids.

Then I ask you this:

- Where would the resources for these story-modes come from? What is their ‘scale’, rewards, etc? Would they be repeated if there was zero reward? Is it worth the cost?

- How many people do you expect would be interested in the story-mode raids that aren’t part of the main Elder Dragon Story? How many players would be lost when the promise of ‘Raids are the most difficulty content in the game’ is suddenly overturned by making an ‘everyone can experience them’ mode? Can this even be measured?

I do expect you have a fairly decent answer some of the above, but bear in mind that the audience you are anticipating to satisfy with a story-mode, needs to be interested in the side-story, needs to be interested in at least getting 9 other players for nerfed content, and isn’t already satisfied by what we have now.

The above are the only folks that will gain something, that’s it. We aren’t attracting other communities like PvP and WvW obviously, but groups who aren’t interested in lore only won’t come. Players who in this story-mode to find the raid loot hopefully won’t come if you agree that Raid Loot should be obtained in the Raid-mode only. The appeal to apply resources to a story-mode version needs to have a pay-off. Because Raids right now are kitten ed well strapped for resources, they aren’t releasing a Wing every quarter, I didn’t expect Crystal’s enthusiasm with that comment to play out as intended.

Furthermore, by applying a story-mode, those who wanted the lore as an incentive to try the current difficulty and maybe realize they can do the content, no longer are part of a pool of new raiders coming in. What do Raiders gain? They gain nothing, they lose just about everything from this deal.

And do not take your low-hanging fruit for resources applied here, your subjective experiences do not factor into the spagetti code that GW2 seems to be working from. Releasing just this recent wing has made Forsaken Thicket already more buggy than normal, KC is a kittenfest, still doable but so bad right now. In whatever you think Arenanet could just ‘nerf numbers’ isn’t something on a dial, the backend systems for fractals versus Raids/Dungeons (Given the interface I believe raids and dungeons share more similarities) are way different.

Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324:

“Raids are essentially side stories, and while they may sometimes share themes with other content they are not part of the core Guild Wars 2 narrative. Because of that, we can tackle darker or more mature topics that don’t fit elsewhere in the game: failure, guilt, betrayal, and struggles for redemption.”

These topics don’t fit in living world stories?

They are side stories, they really don’t have anything to do with the core of GW2 which is the battle against elder dragons. There’s a connection to the raids and GW1, but the White Mantle, Saul and Caudecus are essentially a side story. As a GW1 veteran and long time GW1 player, I’m siding with Bobby on this one, if you really want to see the story in game…look for a cleared instance, otherwise, either read it on the wiki or watch a video…it’s essentially the same thing.

Sykper.6583:

Then I ask you this:

- Where would the resources for these story-modes come from?

Same place the resources came from to split the Bastion bosses between regular and challenge mote. The precedent is there.

What is their ‘scale’, rewards, etc?

Scale-wise, we have an idea of what players are expected to be able to handle in recent Living Story instances. While I’m not going to plant my flag at this particular point, an appropriate scale would probably be to make the story-mode raids a little harder than Living Story instances, taking into account that the story-mode raids would be done as a group while Living Story instances are generally soloed.

Rewards-wise… possibly around the level that explorable dungeons are at now. Enough that you aren’t getting nothing if you do choose to repeat them for fun, low enough that they’re not going to be the next farm.

Would they be repeated if there was zero reward?

For training purposes, I expect so. The reward for failing a boss is pretty minimal: practicing against an easy-mode version of the boss until you feel ready to hit the real thing may well feel more rewarding overall, especially if you consider intrinsic rewards over “you got wiped for the nth time, have some magnetite shards as a consolation prize”.

- How many people do you expect would be interested in the story-mode raids that aren’t part of the main Elder Dragon Story?

Unquantifiable, but the interest is clearly there. People know that the first raid was really more of a prologue than a side-story anyway.

How many players would be lost when the promise of ‘Raids are the most difficulty content in the game’ is suddenly overturned by making an ‘everyone can experience them’ mode? Can this even be measured?

Again, unquantifiable, but other games have made the transition successfully. The full raids will still be the highest difficulty content in the game with unique rewards even if an easier mode was introduced.

I do expect you have a fairly decent answer some of the above, but bear in mind that the audience you are anticipating to satisfy with a story-mode, needs to be interested in the side-story, needs to be interested in at least getting 9 other players for nerfed content, and isn’t already satisfied by what we have now.

I think you underestimate the willingness of some people outside of the hardcore raiding community to repeat content for little extrinsic reward for the intrinsic reward of helping a friend to see something they wouldn’t be able to otherwise.

The above are the only folks that will gain something, that’s it. We aren’t attracting other communities like PvP and WvW obviously, but groups who aren’t interested in lore only won’t come. Players who in this story-mode to find the raid loot hopefully won’t come if you agree that Raid Loot should be obtained in the Raid-mode only. The appeal to apply resources to a story-mode version needs to have a pay-off. Because Raids right now are kitten ed well strapped for resources, they aren’t releasing a Wing every quarter, I didn’t expect Crystal’s enthusiasm with that comment to play out as intended.

Actually, it could lead to more resources being freed up for raids in the long run. How? Because if more people can experience the raid story, even if they just go through once, there’s going to be less rebellion if there’s an extended period where raids are the only new content of real note to come out – such as happened between October 2015 and June 2016.

Furthermore, by applying a story-mode, those who wanted the lore as an incentive to try the current difficulty and maybe realize they can do the content, no longer are part of a pool of new raiders coming in. What do Raiders gain? They gain nothing, they lose just about everything from this deal.

And maybe people who go through it at a level which is challenging but still more forgiving will then have more confidence to move on to develop their skills further and try to complete the full raids, therefore expanding the raiding community, instead of spending several hours eating dirt and deciding it just isn’t fun?

And do not take your low-hanging fruit for resources applied here, your subjective experiences do not factor into the spagetti code that GW2 seems to be working from. Releasing just this recent wing has made Forsaken Thicket already more buggy than normal, KC is a kittenfest, still doable but so bad right now. In whatever you think Arenanet could just ‘nerf numbers’ isn’t something on a dial, the backend systems for fractals versus Raids/Dungeons (Given the interface I believe raids and dungeons share more similarities) are way different.

And yet, you have different difficulty levels in Bastion of the Penitent. The precedent certainly is there… and it’s not like the content has ever been bug-free all the time.