Guild Wars 2

okay.. hold up.. ten.. no .. hundred steps back..
like.. all the way down the volcano, back to the submarine, back to rata sum.. steps back..

Did we just put the strongest, most violent, and most destructive dragon back to sleep?
We just ended it’s cycle..

what?

I mean, I get the story didn’t want us to kill it.. but all the hype from GW1, all the hype from GW2, and the first time we see the elder dragon is when he goes back to sleep?
And we don’t even get to see Jormag, just Taimi saying “And Jormag propably as well”

..

what?

yeah. welcome to kitten.

It gets better. Apparently, the fact that we barely took down a weakened human god in GW1 – Abaddon, doesn’t matter anymore. Screw that. Out heroes are capable of soloing Balthazar. Wonderful continuity.

Nick.6972:

It gets better. Apparently, the fact that we barely took down a weakened human god in GW1 – Abaddon, doesn’t matter anymore. Screw that. Out heroes are capable of soloing Balthazar. Wonderful continuity.

I know, thats another thorn in my side, which can only be explained by “corrupted gods” (to some extend)

But most especially.. how was that supposed to be a plot twist? yea.. no one saw it coming because gw1 players knew it would make zero sense for him to be there, and gw2-only players wouldn’t find it a shock.. they would just say “who?”

Also I like to think that he was either extremely weak, or not a true embodiment of Balthazar, because the real Balthazar would’ve had a blinding presence that drives a man mad..

But back on topic.. Wouldn’t we have had a message of any kind from Ogden if they other Great Dwarf-members failed to keep Primo underground?

for the record, canon-wise mordremoth was the most destructive dragon

Amaimon, it is THE real balthazar. he explicitly said the other gods dimmed his light.

Sublimatio.6981:

for the record, canon-wise mordremoth was the most destructive dragon

based on what? his tendrils tearing forts apart? all dragons do that

maybe the problem with the reveal was there wasnt any buildup to it..? felt so weird the PC seems to just gloss it over when the reveal happened, also how did kasmeer came to conclusion that the mirror was made by lyssa herself? did i missed something??

Amaimon.7823:

Sublimatio.6981:

for the record, canon-wise mordremoth was the most destructive dragon

based on what? his tendrils tearing forts apart? all dragons do that

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Summit_Invitations#At_Stonewright_Steading

quote: “Exactly. Right now, Mordremoth is wreaking the most damage upon Tyria.”

Do we get to see Primordus?
If so I wish someone could pm a pic.
I can’t play the ls

Ogwom.7940:

Do we get to see Primordus?
If so I wish someone could pm a pic.
I can’t play the ls

yes it looks different than model from GW1 which is bad.. but at least he has a model and is not the whole jungle (amen).

Sublimatio.6981:

Amaimon.7823:

Sublimatio.6981:

for the record, canon-wise mordremoth was the most destructive dragon

based on what? his tendrils tearing forts apart? all dragons do that

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Summit_Invitations#At_Stonewright_Steading

quote: “Exactly. Right now, Mordremoth is wreaking the most damage upon Tyria.”

“Right now”
So he was the most destructive dragon at one point in time, but not the most destructive dragon overall.

Let’s not forget Zhaitan raised an entire continent which caused a Tsunami that did massive damage to huge swats of land, destroying the Battle Isles and old Lion’s Arch in the process.

Nick.6972:

It gets better. Apparently, the fact that we barely took down a weakened human god in GW1 – Abaddon, doesn’t matter anymore. Screw that. Out heroes are capable of soloing Balthazar. Wonderful continuity.

Balthasar is not dead. Confirmed by a dev in the AmA.

Just defeated and likely to come back.

Amaimon.7823:

okay.. hold up.. ten.. no .. hundred steps back..
like.. all the way down the volcano, back to the submarine, back to rata sum.. steps back..

Did we just put the strongest, most violent, and most destructive dragon back to sleep?
We just ended it’s cycle..

what?

I mean, I get the story didn’t want us to kill it.. but all the hype from GW1, all the hype from GW2, and the first time we see the elder dragon is when he goes back to sleep?
And we don’t even get to see Jormag, just Taimi saying “And Jormag propably as well”

..

what?

I don’t think they’ve gone back to sleep, as in for thousands of years between dragon rises, bit back to their less active state, as in for a few years between periods of major activity. They’re still awake and still a threat, like they were prior to the start of LS3.

Nick.6972:

It gets better. Apparently, the fact that we barely took down a weakened human god in GW1 – Abaddon, doesn’t matter anymore. Screw that. Out heroes are capable of soloing Balthazar. Wonderful continuity.

Balthazar has a line of dialog that suggests he has been weakened by the dragons (can’t remember it exactly and it’s not been added to the wiki yet). Otherwise there’s no reason we should have had any chance in the first or last instances.

Stitch.1794:

Amaimon.7823:

okay.. hold up.. ten.. no .. hundred steps back..
like.. all the way down the volcano, back to the submarine, back to rata sum.. steps back..

Did we just put the strongest, most violent, and most destructive dragon back to sleep?
We just ended it’s cycle..

what?

I mean, I get the story didn’t want us to kill it.. but all the hype from GW1, all the hype from GW2, and the first time we see the elder dragon is when he goes back to sleep?
And we don’t even get to see Jormag, just Taimi saying “And Jormag propably as well”

..

what?

I don’t think they’ve gone back to sleep, as in for thousands of years between dragon rises, bit back to their less active state, as in for a few years between periods of major activity. They’re still awake and still a threat, like they were prior to the start of LS3.

It’s difficult to know since it is stated they have returned to “pre-awakened energy levels” That would suggest asleep.

Randulf.7614:

It’s difficult to know since it is stated they have returned to “pre-awakened energy levels” That would suggest asleep.

Would Taimi have that information, as it was years ago, before she was born? She started tracking dragon energy levels using the map found near Tarir, so it seems to me more likely she is comparing to their energy levels before they became active at the start of LS3, because that’s the only data she has to compare with.

I’m so glad I quit this game, the last decent thing about it was the lore and they come out with this garbage lol.

Stitch.1794:

Randulf.7614:

It’s difficult to know since it is stated they have returned to “pre-awakened energy levels” That would suggest asleep.

Would Taimi have that information, as it was years ago, before she was born? She started tracking dragon energy levels using the map found near Tarir, so it seems to me more likely she is comparing to their energy levels before they became active at the start of LS3, because that’s the only data she has to compare with.

Then that’s what the tech should have stated – “before recent rising”. Plus we collect Primordus and Jormag energy in the instance as part of an achievement, so we know they lose energy. I’m inclined to trust the tech she’s developed from Rata Novan research as accurate, otherwise it’s just poor writing.

Randulf.7614:

Stitch.1794:

Randulf.7614:

It’s difficult to know since it is stated they have returned to “pre-awakened energy levels” That would suggest asleep.

Would Taimi have that information, as it was years ago, before she was born? She started tracking dragon energy levels using the map found near Tarir, so it seems to me more likely she is comparing to their energy levels before they became active at the start of LS3, because that’s the only data she has to compare with.

Then that’s what the tech should have stated – “before recent rising”. Plus we collect Primordus and Jormag energy in the instance as part of an achievement, so we know they lose energy. I’m inclined to trust the tech she’s developed from Rata Novan research as accurate, otherwise it’s just poor writing.

I’m not suggesting the tech is inaccurate, just that Taimi wasn’t using it at the appropriate time to know what true pre-awakening power levels were – I’m assuming the tech will show energy levels now, not at any period in history you so desire. I’m suggesting a heavily sleep-deprived Taimi simply used a poor choice of words by saying pre-awakening rather than pre-recent activity.

Amaimon.7823:

okay.. hold up.. ten.. no .. hundred steps back..
like.. all the way down the volcano, back to the submarine, back to rata sum.. steps back..

Did we just put the strongest, most violent, and most destructive dragon back to sleep?
We just ended it’s cycle..

what?

I mean, I get the story didn’t want us to kill it.. but all the hype from GW1, all the hype from GW2, and the first time we see the elder dragon is when he goes back to sleep?
And we don’t even get to see Jormag, just Taimi saying “And Jormag propably as well”

..

what?

It rather makes sense. The entire fight was showing Jormag’s and Primordus’ energies going at each other. The entire purpose of the machine was, of course, to kill the two Elder Dragons simultaneously. Balthazar injecting himself in that prevented their death, but enough of their magic was drained as to put them to sleep (akin to what happened when the Bloodstone was originally made).

A little fast paced, but that’s what happened.

Also, Primordus isn’t “the most destructive” dragon. He’s actually been the least destructive dragon in terms of his actions and influence on the races. He’s just been awake the longest thus should be “the most powerful”.

Jormag and Mordremoth have proven to be the two most destructive dragons.

Nick.6972:

It gets better. Apparently, the fact that we barely took down a weakened human god in GW1 – Abaddon, doesn’t matter anymore. Screw that. Out heroes are capable of soloing Balthazar. Wonderful continuity.

Based on his dailogue, Balthazar was also weakened – perhaps far more so than Abaddon was. It took the gift of the other gods to defeat Abaddon, while he was chained, and though weakened he was near back to his original power (and never lost his divinity either).

Balthazar says “They abated me, they dimmed my light… but now they will see me.”

For non-English users, to abate something means to weaken or make less intense. So Balthazar was weakened. “Dimmed my light” – godhood results in blinding those who look upon them.

Balthazar just told us he lost his divinity.

And we didn’t defeat him, we just defeated his two hounds, using the Elder Dragons’ energies. Balthazar is still alive, having absorbed not only a bloodstone’s magic, but enough of two Elder Dragons’ magic that they were put back to sleep.

Or at least, one Elder Dragon’s magic that it was put back to sleep. We’re not sure Jormag is asleep.

Or how long they’ll be asleep.

We may find out that their champions quickly raise them up again with so much magic in the world.

Sublimatio.6981:

Amaimon, it is THE real balthazar. he explicitly said the other gods dimmed his light.

He said “they”. With no context of what “they” refers to.

Sublimatio.6981:

Amaimon.7823:

Sublimatio.6981:

for the record, canon-wise mordremoth was the most destructive dragon

based on what? his tendrils tearing forts apart? all dragons do that

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Summit_Invitations#At_Stonewright_Steading

quote: “Exactly. Right now, Mordremoth is wreaking the most damage upon Tyria.”

That’s just saying Mordremoth is making the most damage at the current moment (which was true, since the others were inactive), not that it’s the most destructive dragon.

Stitch.1794:

Balthazar has a line of dialog that suggests he has been weakened by the dragons (can’t remember it exactly and it’s not been added to the wiki yet). Otherwise there’s no reason we should have had any chance in the first or last instances.

Again, he says THEY, with zero context as to who “they” refer to. We don’t know who or what weakened Balthazar, just that he was.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

For non-English users, to abate something means to weaken or make less intense. So Balthazar was weakened. “Dimmed my light” – godhood results in blinding those who look upon them.

Balthazar just told us he lost his divinity.

And we didn’t defeat him, we just defeated his two hounds, using the Elder Dragons’ energies. Balthazar is still alive, having absorbed not only a bloodstone’s magic, but enough of two Elder Dragons’ magic that they were put back to sleep.

Or at least, one Elder Dragon’s magic that it was put back to sleep. We’re not sure Jormag is asleep.

Or how long they’ll be asleep.

We may find out that their champions quickly raise them up again with so much magic in the world.

So we have an Ex-God on a rampage. Question is, who usurped Balthazar? Menzies? A god doesn’t lose his divinity because he sneezed or due to a visit from Scarlet. It could be that Menzies togerther with his followers was susccessful or some primitives on another world were too warlike and just took his power.

I don’t like that twist that Balthasar was using the Lazarus guise because it feels like a twist for the sake of a twist, even though some of the stuff back then makes a bit more sense now but still it doesn’t really feel… right.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Stitch.1794:

Balthazar has a line of dialog that suggests he has been weakened by the dragons (can’t remember it exactly and it’s not been added to the wiki yet). Otherwise there’s no reason we should have had any chance in the first or last instances.

Again, he says THEY, with zero context as to who “they” refer to. We don’t know who or what weakened Balthazar, just that he was.

Fair enough, but the dragons seems to me by far the most likely explanation, for a couple reasons. Firstly, the timing of the gods retreating is broadly in line with the dragons awakening. Secondly, Balthazar’s determination to see the dragons killed, even if it means destroying Tyria – that came across as a personal vendetta.

Walhalla.5473:

So we have an Ex-God on a rampage. Question is, who usurped Balthazar? Menzies? A god doesn’t lose his divinity because he sneezed or due to a visit from Scarlet. It could be that Menzies togerther with his followers was susccessful or some primitives on another world were too warlike and just took his power.

I don’t like that twist that Balthasar was using the Lazarus guise because it feels like a twist for the sake of a twist, even though some of the stuff back then makes a bit more sense now but still it doesn’t really feel… right.

I agree on the Lazarus bit. Balthazar’s return and change of persona in of itself was enough of a plot twist. I would have preferred that Lazarus was actually Lazarus and Balthazar appeared on his own. But what’s done is done.

As to Balthazar being usurped… we’re not really sure that the only way to denounce a god is to usurp him. “They” could refer to a number of groups. But the curious part was the end of the line “they will see me again”. This implies that someone betrayed him – at least in his mind – which in turn implies that it was the Six Gods who revoked his godhood.

Stitch.1794:

Fair enough, but the dragons seems to me by far the most likely explanation, for a couple reasons. Firstly, the timing of the gods retreating is broadly in line with the dragons awakening. Secondly, Balthazar’s determination to see the dragons killed, even if it means destroying Tyria – that came across as a personal vendetta.

The gods left Tyria in Year 0. That is 1078 years before Primordus even began to wake up. There is no “broadly in line”. They only stopped talking in 1075 – three years before Primordus began to wake up.

Furthermore, we were explicitly told, numerous times, by developers, that the Six Gods remained in contact solely because of Abaddon, so with his death they lost all reason to keep communication going. They left to “let humans stand on their own” but also because when they intervene, kitten hits the fan (Bloodstone/gift of magic and the incited wars that followed; the war against Abaddon that turned a sea into a desert and verdant coastline into a toxic wasteland, etc. etc.).

So your first point is definitely not the case.

Secondly, Balthazar never showed interest in killing the Elder Dragons, per se. Yes, that was the pretense for his works as Lazarus, but in the end when his disguise was taken, his goal was shown to be absorbing the Elder Dragons’ magic – this is what he did at the end. He merely thought that Tyria’s destruction was inconsequential, so long as he got that magic in the process. He no longer cared about the humans for some reason.

I do agree that there’s a personal vendetta going on, but it is not against the dragons. “They abated me, they dimmed my light… But now they will see me again” implies that magic was taken from him, and to take revenge he needs magic. Magic he hadn’t gotten yet by the time he said this – which he had gotten magic from the bloodstone, but he was still taking magic from the Elder Dragons at the time.

He needs magic to do what he wants to do. Now he has that magic, so now we’ll see his true goal, and who “they” are.

Killing the Elder Dragons wasn’t the end. They were the means. A means we stopped, but not before he got what he wanted (presumably – he may go after them again, or after the other bloodstones, to absorb more magic).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The gods left Tyria in Year 0. That is 1078 years before Primordus even began to wake up. There is no “broadly in line”. They only stopped talking in 1075 – three years before Primordus began to wake up.

Furthermore, we were explicitly told, numerous times, by developers, that the Six Gods remained in contact solely because of Abaddon, so with his death they lost all reason to keep communication going. They left to “let humans stand on their own” but also because when they intervene, kitten hits the fan (Bloodstone/gift of magic and the incited wars that followed; the war against Abaddon that turned a sea into a desert and verdant coastline into a toxic wasteland, etc. etc.).

So your first point is definitely not the case.

Fair enough – I was referring to the full loss of contact since GW1, not physically leaving Tyria in year 0, but I’d never come across Abaddon’s death being the reason behind that. Out of interest do you have a source for that (not doubting you, just intrigued as to what the devs said on the subject)?

Okay – so I don’t really get this. I feel the lore has been changed so radically.

First Balthazar is Lazarus. Alright. I don’t get how some things work though.
He’s the human god of war – and yet he’s raising mercenaries from what I could only tell were all five races. Why?
Couldn’t he more easily just reveal himself and lead the people of Kryta?

On top of that – are the human gods evil now? Have they renounced their patronage of humans? I found it odd that Balthazar would so easily discard human lives (even while posing as Lazarus).

As a human player I felt the immediate need to join Balthazar in his quest – and I can’t because GW2’s story is not complex enough to offer race-based branches and “multicultural” enough that I need to be buddy buddy friends with all the other races.
Normally I’d be happy to see such a huge part of GW1 come back to the forefront of the game’s lore but with the way things have been handled recently I have many reasons to fear they’ll just ruin established lore more.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

He no longer cared about the humans for some reason.

That’s honestly something upsetting for me.
The whole concept of the gods – being not exactly impartial gods gods but powerful entities that cared enough about the humans to shelter them, transport them through the mists and help them settle and conquer Tyria was what first made their concept so interesting to me.
They were the guys that were “in your corner” so to speak.

“For weeks did the battle rage on, and those who had taken up the mantle of war grew weary and their courage began to falter.
Then did Balthazar, god of war and fire, appear to the soldiers, carrying with him a grand sword that did glow with such brilliance it blinded any who looked upon it. When he spoke, His voice was like thunder, and it shook the ground with force.
Then saith He, “Lift up thy weapons. For you are my soldiers, and must you be steadfast, strong, and brave of heart. They who neither hesitate nor stumble shall be rewarded. Then shall you have glory. Then shall your deeds be remembered for eternity.”
And then did release from His sword a hundred thousand flames, which encircled the soldiers. For this was the fire of courage, and forthwith did they follow the god into battle without fear or hesitation. Thence was the enemy struck down."

Do you feel this current iteration of Balthazar stays true to the original? Does the text describe an entity that would use deception and “mercenaries” for his goals?
I would have accepted him being part of the story – but somehow leading Krytans or humans into the fray – not armies of mercenaries from every race.

I guess there are still some reasons why he didn’t reveal himself, which could make that twist better but we have to pull possible reasons out of our ass now.

Don’t forget what Balthasar said at the end. He literally told us that he lost his godhood to something or someone. We don’t know to whom but the one(s) responsible for this could still search for him to finish him off or something like that. So if he just went to Kryta saying. " I’m Balthazar. I’m mighty. Worship me" I guess he would have been found by the one who took his godhood. At least he could have feared it.

And yes I’m pulling out reasons out of my ass now to make it more logical in my mind xD

Konig Des Todes.2086:

having absorbed not only a bloodstone’s magic, but enough of two Elder Dragons’ magic that they were put back to sleep.

Or at least, one Elder Dragon’s magic that it was put back to sleep. We’re not sure Jormag is asleep.

Isn’t that contradictory to what we already know about Elder Dragons? If I recall correctly, an Elder Dragon consumes a lot of magic, then when he has consumed enough goes back to sleep. Over time, the magic he has consumed dissipates, the dragon gets hungry, wakes up and starts eating again.

So shouldn’t draining a lot of magic from Primordus only make him more hungry and aggressive?

Stitch.1794:

Fair enough – I was referring to the full loss of contact since GW1, not physically leaving Tyria in year 0, but I’d never come across Abaddon’s death being the reason behind that. Out of interest do you have a source for that (not doubting you, just intrigued as to what the devs said on the subject)?

Jeff Grubb: The human gods still exist, and their power is still felt within Tyria. However, they have pulled back into the mists, leaving the humans to stand (or fall) on their own merits. There has been a tendency for the human gods to, um, meddle with their worshippers a bit much, and in the wake of the final battle of Abaddon, they have been trying to cut back. Also, the destruction of the big A and his replacement with Kormir in the Pantheon resolved one of their ties with physical contact with Tyria. So there are ties, but you just can’t ring them up to take on the Elder Dragons.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dolyak-Express-Jan-10-2014/page/3#post3545340

Main source for that.

Harper.4173:

First Balthazar is Lazarus. Alright. I don’t get how some things work though.
He’s the human god of war – and yet he’s raising mercenaries from what I could only tell were all five races. Why?
Couldn’t he more easily just reveal himself and lead the people of Kryta?

The mercenary thing is strange, as is the use of non-human forces. As far as I know, this is left unexplained.

But if I’m understanding right, the White Mantle slash mercenaries was going to be his primary method to take on Primordus. But then Taimi Ex Machina came into play and he realized he didn’t need the army so he abandoned it.

Why not just appear in DR and conscript humanity as a whole because he is their god? I honestly am baffled by it too. The only answer I can think of is “he was too weak, and needed to absorb magic from the bloodstone to appear godly in the first place”. He definitely says he’s been weakened by someone.

Harper.4173:

On top of that – are the human gods evil now? Have they renounced their patronage of humans? I found it odd that Balthazar would so easily discard human lives (even while posing as Lazarus).

Balthazar’s actions hold nothing on the other gods. In fact, of all the non-fallen gods, Balthazar had been portrayed as the most volatile of gods, what with the story of Kaolai from Factions.

But Balthazar seems to be more apathetic now rather than evil. He seems to be on a personal vendetta and needs power to go through with it, and he sought that power in the form of bloodstone and elder dragon.

Harper.4173:

As a human player I felt the immediate need to join Balthazar in his quest – and I can’t because GW2’s story is not complex enough to offer race-based branches and “multicultural” enough that I need to be buddy buddy friends with all the other races.
Normally I’d be happy to see such a huge part of GW1 come back to the forefront of the game’s lore but with the way things have been handled recently I have many reasons to fear they’ll just ruin established lore more.

Balthazar’s reveal was definitely done poorly, with everyone immediately taking a historically good guy as a villain immediately. Yes, he lied to the commander, but other than that lie had Balthazar made any attempt to show himself as evil?

No.

Our initial distrust was because he was Lazarus, a mursaat known for betrayal. Knowing that he wasn’t Lazarus just meant he lied to us to gain the White Mantle’s favor for unknown reason, so we had reason to begin trusting him. Instead, the writers just took this as reason to distrust someone who should have been at least somewhat trustworthy.

Harper.4173:

Do you feel this current iteration of Balthazar stays true to the original? Does the text describe an entity that would use deception and “mercenaries” for his goals?
I would have accepted him being part of the story – but somehow leading Krytans or humans into the fray – not armies of mercenaries from every race.

Yes and no.

At face value, definitely no. But his dialogue shows that something happened to him. Something that created massive backstage character development.

Until we know what that “something” is, we cannot say if this development stays true to “who Balthazar is”.

The Lazarus and mercenary bit is very much… out of place, all the same.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Isn’t that contradictory to what we already know about Elder Dragons? If I recall correctly, an Elder Dragon consumes a lot of magic, then when he has consumed enough goes back to sleep. Over time, the magic he has consumed dissipates, the dragon gets hungry, wakes up and starts eating again.

So shouldn’t draining a lot of magic from Primordus only make him more hungry and aggressive?

That’s the common but false interpretation. What puts the Elder Dragons to sleep isn’t “having consumed enough” but rather “having nothing else to consume”.

We know that in order to wake up, the Elder Dragons need to consume magic to rise. They can only be active when they have sufficient magic.

We also know that corrupting things results in them expunging magic (but twisted), which means when they corrupt they lose magic. So the longer they’re awake, not only are they consuming more magic, but they’re releasing magic too in a manner they want and control.

So when they run out of magic to eat, they’re only releasing magic, which results in their hibernation (where in magic releases at a faster, uncontrolled, pace). When enough magic is released, their re-absorb it (mostly through a “herald” dragon champion – such as The Great Destroyer or Drakkar) which allows them to rise.

So siphoning a lot of magic will put them to sleep, but without reducing magic in the world, they’ll shortly wake back up.

Which means that while Primordus (and possibly Jormag) have been put back to sleep, this won’t be a “10,000 year long hibernation” like before, they’re probably already beginning to take in magic to rise again.

Basically meaning – at least if I’m correct with the above – ArenaNet just put Primordus on the bus so that they can work with non-Elder Dragon plots faster, without killing Primordus (thus allowing them to go back to the Elder Dragon plots when they want to).

So, I was confused as to what happened at the end with Primordus too. I initially thought we fed it enough magic to put it to sleep basically but then after reading this thread I was on the train of thought that we had taken away it’s magic putting it into a dormant state.

…. That was until I read the story summary in the Story Journal in game, which says that when the machine blew it hit Primordus with a bolt of Jormag energy and that Taimi thought that the same probably happened with Jormag…..

So we were all wrong! We apparently just mortally wounded Jormag/Primordus with the opposing energy enough to put them in a dragon down state??

Ugh, the lengths we have to go to to make sense of this stuff sometimes, amirite?

Primordius is poisoned into sleep and paralysis at the same time. Same with Jormag.

Our main goal right now is to either keep Braham from killing the unconscious Jormag or have someone absorb the Elder Dragon’s energies just like Kormir did with Abaddon.

Hopefully Mr. E turns out to be a benevolent Grenth so that we can do the latter. I don’t want Jormag causing any trouble down the road.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

He definitely says he’s been weakened by someone.

Lucky for us, since it means the PC isn’t permanently blind. I think he says he was “dimmed”. Maybe by someone with a Shadow Army?

As to Balthazar being usurped… we’re not really sure that the only way to denounce a god is to usurp him. “They” could refer to a number of groups. But the curious part was the end of the line “they will see me again”.

It could just be a sort of poetic counter to the “dimming” of his power. Of course, unless the “they” are gods, they probably won’t see him for long.

This reveal does lend more credibility to the theory that Jenna or Anise (or both) is Lyssa — a massive citywide glamour does sort of seem to be divine-level magic from her sphere. But if Lyssa is helping Balthazar (by giving him powerful illusion magic, and most likely arranging for him to get a bloodstone infusion), and Lyssa is also tossing out Big Magic to protect the human capital city, then it seems much less likely that the gods have become entirely apathetic, or hostile, to humanity, or that Balthazar is on the outs with the rest of the six.

As residents of the Mists, it’s possible that they’re just less concerned with the fate of a single world, especially if they are concerned with a danger that threatens many human-occupied worlds or the divine realms themselves. It was always sort of assumed that the waking of the dragons was the proximate cause of the absence of the gods, but maybe they just had bigger stuff to deal with at HQ.

I wonder if the Shadow Behemoth was a hint from the beginning that Menzies was becoming more powerful and would be part of the future human storyline…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Also, Primordus isn’t “the most destructive” dragon. He’s actually been the least destructive dragon in terms of his actions and influence on the races. He’s just been awake the longest thus should be “the most powerful”.

Jormag and Mordremoth have proven to be the two most destructive dragons.

He is, but he was also the least active (besides Stevy mcBubbles)
because the Great Dwarf was SUPPOSED to be be keeping him busy, yes I’m looking at you, Ogden, prepare for your monthly evaluation.
Mordremoth’s destructiveness was limited to the vines breaking apart forts, and later the fleet blips. Jormag did a lot more damage, breaking an entire mounting in the north, but that still pales to rising an entire peninsula south of Kryta causing a subsequent tidal wave, so with your logic, if you take inactive dragons out of the equation, Zhaitan is the most destructive dragon

Sublimatio.6981:

Amaimon.7823:

Sublimatio.6981:

for the record, canon-wise mordremoth was the most destructive dragon

based on what? his tendrils tearing forts apart? all dragons do that

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Summit_Invitations#At_Stonewright_Steading

quote: “Exactly. Right now, Mordremoth is wreaking the most damage upon Tyria.”

That’s because he was the only active dragon at the time. The other dragons were just in passive corruption mode.

Not sure why you are blaming Ogden. He is just one Dwarf with no way to keeo Primordus at bay by himself. There was a whole army of Dwarves but even if they are stone they can be killed and the Dwarves have no way to replenish their numbers.

And the Deldrimor Dwarves kept Primordus busy for a long time. For more than 200 years, but its clear that they were fightig a losing battle and someday they would all perish.

Nick.6972:

It gets better. Apparently, the fact that we barely took down a weakened human god in GW1 – Abaddon, doesn’t matter anymore. Screw that. Out heroes are capable of soloing Balthazar. Wonderful continuity.

It gets even better. Balthazar posing as Lazarus? Why? The White Mantle played no role at all in his stunt with Primordus and Jormag. So, again, why? Fine, they name-dropped Lyssa. Suppose Jennah is Lyssa undercover – it also explains her OP stuff – but these are the human gods for their own’s sake. Why would they even bother going undercover? It’s not as if they wouldn’t have followers if they simply showed up. Ep6 better give some solid answers, because this kitten just doesn’t make any sense.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The mercenary thing is strange, as is the use of non-human forces. As far as I know, this is left unexplained.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Why not just appear in DR and conscript humanity as a whole because he is their god? I honestly am baffled by it too. The only answer I can think of is “he was too weak, and needed to absorb magic from the bloodstone to appear godly in the first place”. He definitely says he’s been weakened by someone.

It’s things like these that make me feel that they’re ruining the lore. For things to make sense they have to have a certain way of progressing – starting from known elements into unknown ones. I’m not saying don’t have any new elements or plot twists but things have to have a sort of logical predictability in order to achieve suspension of disbelief.
I feel things like this really ruin my capacity to become invested in the story because I can’t really take anything at face value and because I can never hope to fully “know” or “grasp” what’s going on. It seems at every turn they decide to pull something out of thin air instead of just setting a narrative frame and then working through it step by step without doing an “anime-like” twist that turns everything 180 degrees every LS episode.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Balthazar’s actions hold nothing on the other gods. In fact, of all the non-fallen gods, Balthazar had been portrayed as the most volatile of gods, what with the story of Kaolai from Factions.
But Balthazar seems to be more apathetic now rather than evil. He seems to be on a personal vendetta and needs power to go through with it, and he sought that power in the form of bloodstone and elder dragon.

I’m looking at this from a meta-point of view. If they could do this with Balthazar – does this mean that they can “rework” any of the gods like this?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Balthazar’s reveal was definitely done poorly, with everyone immediately taking a historically good guy as a villain immediately. Yes, he lied to the commander, but other than that lie had Balthazar made any attempt to show himself as evil?
No.
Our initial distrust was because he was Lazarus, a mursaat known for betrayal. Knowing that he wasn’t Lazarus just meant he lied to us to gain the White Mantle’s favor for unknown reason, so we had reason to begin trusting him. Instead, the writers just took this as reason to distrust someone who should have been at least somewhat trustworthy.

Exactly – and the way they immediately write it off like “he’s bad we gotta stop him go team” is absurd.
We’re completely ignoring the fact that he spared us when he was initially revealed, that he’s not acted hostile towards us at all until We initiated a hostile action towards him.
I mean we don’t ask him “who’s under the mask” – we rip the mask off his face and then consider him a villan when he defends himself.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Yes and no.
At face value, definitely no. But his dialogue shows that something happened to him. Something that created massive backstage character development.
Until we know what that “something” is, we cannot say if this development stays true to “who Balthazar is”.
The Lazarus and mercenary bit is very much… out of place, all the same.

Fair – I can get on board with the “broad backstory that will get explained later” but I do feel certain elements – mercenaries, Lazarus are really out of place and these elements give me little hope that what’s to come is any good.

Ultimately I find myself sad and disappointed – I love GW1 lore and that in theory should make me go over the roof that GW1 lore is coming back into the fray. In practice though I feel my heart sink – and can’t look forward seeing how everything is twisted and convoluted to make it something else.

I also really dislike how things that were ambiguous and gray in GW1 are now being “dumbed down” and made palatable black and white situations.

I played last night’s episode with two of my friends who came into GW2 via HoT, and they thought this reveal was a horrible asspull. It was a big “Who? Wait? What the Kitten?” moment for them, as they felt that it had little build-up or clues and all done in a haphazard way. The tone and everything just felt off, poorly delivered, especially since several of us were playing with human characters who were nonplused about the reappearance of one of their gods.

How exactly did he know what that device was meant to do? I thought Taimi kept it a secret. How could he operate it (I dont think a god of brute methods should be able to operate asura magitech that was purposefully designed in a way that other asuras dont know what it does), let alone change it in a way that lets him absorb what energy Primordus bleeds out when hit by the Jormag-beam? Also, wouldnt we need another similar device at the close proximity of Jormag’s dragon form for this to work both ways? The whole concept was, I thought, to use two dragons power against each other, so it should only work both ways.

lakdav.3694:

How exactly did he know what that device was meant to do? I thought Taimi kept it a secret. How could he operate it (I dont think a god of brute methods should be able to operate asura magitech that was purposefully designed in a way that other asuras dont know what it does), let alone change it in a way that lets him absorb what energy Primordus bleeds out when hit by the Jormag-beam? Also, wouldnt we need another similar device at the close proximity of Jormag’s dragon form for this to work both ways? The whole concept was, I thought, to use two dragons power against each other, so it should only work both ways.

The device didn’t really seem to have a range. Taimi made it sound like it’d be as simple as pressing a button in the Rata Novus lab- as long as it didn’t blow up in our faces.

Sure, Balthazar took it down to the Primordus chamber, but I figured that was because he’d already secured the chamber as part of his previous plan, whatever it was he was intending to do before he learned about the machine, and that made it the safest place for him to phase out without the machine being tampered with.

Operating it seems to be passed off as part of being a god. As a being of (according to the scanner) pure magical energy who’s been around for who knows how long and at least used to rule a swath of the Mists, it makes sense he’d better understand a device that interfaces with the inner workings of the universe than Taimi, or even Omadd, did. I think there was a line in there where Taimi came out and admitted she didn’t understand what he’d managed to do with the thing.

Knowing about the machine? I’m drawing a blank on that one, but it’s not entirely out of the realm of possibility. We know from Rising Flames that Taimi had subverted some of Phlunt’s people into working for her (and she had to send someone out to get those dragon minions), so it’s not like the secrecy was water-tight. It deserves an explanation, absolutely, but it can be explained.

So for Balthazar.

We know that until the end of this episode he wasn’t a god anymore. He was just some angry being who lost its divinity and who wants to become a god again ( or at least something as powerful as a god ) And i guess disguising as Lazarus for his first steps to become a god again would make sense.

Why?

To get the magic in the Bloddstone and absorb it and the safest way was to use the fanatics who were working on a bloddstone already aka the White Mantle. Going there as himself would only result in White Mantle attacking or even killing him.

After arriving there he apperantly told the Matnle about a ritual, a ritual that would give him the power of the Bloodstone, the Mantle was working quite a few days for this, making preparations etc etc.. Thing is, if you are a God who would obviously be powerful enough to absorb an absurd amount of magic without going insane, why the preparations?
2 possibilities: First the magic from the Bloodstone would even corrupt a deity
Second: Balthazar wasn’t a god at that time and just absorbing this stuff would have some result that wouldn’t be nice to him.

So after the ritual and the explosion Balthazar had what he wanted from the Bloddstone abd he could have dropped the Lazarus act. But why didn’t he? Perhaps there are reasons for this but since there are no obvious reasons stated or even hinted at, I don’t know what I should think about the Lazarus act after the first episode.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

The device didn’t really seem to have a range. Taimi made it sound like it’d be as simple as pressing a button in the Rata Novus lab- as long as it didn’t blow up in our faces.

Sure, Balthazar took it down to the Primordus chamber, but I figured that was because he’d already secured the chamber as part of his previous plan, whatever it was he was intending to do before he learned about the machine, and that made it the safest place for him to phase out without the machine being tampered with.

There was a beam of Jormag energy (or I at least assume it was, considering the background explanation of how its supposed to work and the color theme of the beam) coming from the machine. So I was wondering if Jormag got his own beam of Primordus energy in the face, and where it came from, because there was definitely no orange/fiery beam shooting out from the device to somewhere in the distance.

But maybe I’m wrong and the beam is actually Balthazar siphoning Primordus’ energy. Dont know why would it be bright blue considering both of their color themes, red/orange, or even dark green (from Zhaitan) and bright green (from Mordremoth).

lakdav.3694:

because there was definitely no orange/fiery beam shooting out from the device to somewhere in the distance.

Actually, there was. I got the Fancy Flier by having someone else head down and break the seals, and while I was dropping down to join them I had a minor burst of panic when the beams started up. The first one was definitely orange, the second blue, and they kept switching back and forth.

Edit: Just ran through it again, and it looks like the cycle runs like this:
1. Blue energy shoots down from above, into the machine.
2. Blue energy shoots from the machine into Primordus.
3. Orange energy shoots from Primordus into the machine.
4. Orange energy shoots up from the machine.
5. Blue energy shoots down from above… and so on.

The fact that we as players are here discussing these issues means that the story-telling was poor.

So, I see a lot of good points on this story. I’m really kind of on the fence for…pretty much all of it. The only thing I’m going to add is a point about the whole “Why does Balthazaar pretend to be a hated dangerous enemy and not the beloved human God”
To that, I’m going to first point out, that I also think that was absurd. I’m with you guys on that one. There really is no good foreseeable reason. But I have a probably bad reason that maybe someone can expound on, or think on, or whatever.

So, anyways, here it is. Balthazaar COULD have easily popped up in Divinity’s Reach and just said “Humans. Follow me!” He’s their god. Who’d say no? But that courtesy only extends as far as humanity. And not even all of humanity (but more on that in a minute). The Charr would, at best, not join his cause out of contempt for human gods, and at worst, organize legions against him. The Asura and Sylvari wouldn’t really be any different in this scenario, because any of them who had joined “Lazarus” would join just about anyone for the right money.

But back to the human thing, a lot would zealously follow him, sure, but humans have a lot of stuff going on right now. God or not, they can’t just stop defending their borders against centaurs and White Mantle to go follow him on his random errand. And the White Mantle oppose worship of the 6 gods, because they think it’s heresy. So they’re automatically enemies.
Appearing as Lazarus gave him the most options, probably. The White Mantle would immediately fall in line. Easy. The next part of the plan, and this is an important step, was to appear as a Lazarus that suddenly didn’t want the world to burn. Now your options aren’t just WM. It’s WM + anyone who was willing to help a guy that was just REALLY powerful and not an evil world hating maniac.

So basically, Appear as Balthazaar, be limited to available non-White Mantle humans. Maybe some curious Asura and Sylvari.
Appear as reformed Lazarus, get guaranteed WM fanatics and any available person of any race/faction willing to give you a chance. It’s the only reasoning I can come up with, so I’m going to go ahead and put it out there.

Why do people in this thread think we soloed Balthazar..?
We fought his hounds. Balthazar never fought us. The player character, after fighting the hounds, told Balth to stop what he was doing and fight us.
Taimi knew it was suicide, my Norn sounded like she knew it was a bad idea but we had no choice.

When Balth started to get some of his power back he summoned his sword… he didn’t even fight us, he immobilized us and then nuked the player character. We barely stopped him before his disappeared and he didn’t even lift a finger towards us.
I know there were a lot of flames everywhere but seriously…

Harper.4173:

I also really dislike how things that were ambiguous and gray in GW1 are now being “dumbed down” and made palatable black and white situations.

While I never played WoW, this was part of what made me stop caring about Warcraft lore at all – when it seemed that basically any character who had any shade of grey whatsoever was turned into a villain so they could have a recognisable raid-boss.

This… feels similar. We’ll see how it develops, but if they’ve just turned Balthazar into Abaddon 2.0 just so they could have a shocking reveal, I may well have my Thalador moment.

I mean, when you look in retrospect back at previous episodes, I can see the smallest of hints to his identity. Fire raining down on White Mantle is the only thing that comes to mind, of which by the way, that’s a fairly big irony now in lore.

White Mantle who were trying to resurrect their Mursaat God bring back or rather attract their actual God of War who proceeds to smite many of them in the name of faith. Almost Poetic.

Anyways, I’m a bit curious as to why now Baltazar has an interest in Aurene, why he lost a lot of power, what Lyssa’s involvement in all this is (could be irrelevant but might as well question the mirror)…

Uncovering the identity has risen so many questions, Baltazar had better not disappear for too long. Willing to gamble he or as many point out, whoever this is, is a main antagonist for the next expansion.