Guild Wars 2

Ronan found the Pale Tree’s seed among a “guarded cavern filled with mysterious seeds”, so it wasn’t the only one. I think the dream and the nightmare could involve that the dragon is still asleep and by keeping the dream peaceful the pale tree could be keeping it from waking or his purpose could be less violent than the other dragons. His job could be to heal the land after the other dragons destroy it.

Other than Ronan finding the seed among a bunch of others I don’t have much to go on besides my imagination. Thought I would share my theory anyways.

Your speculation and a hundred others’ as well. This is one of the most popular and least supported-by-evidence “theories” out there (theories require supporting evidence to be such, otherwise they’re hypotheses or wild speculations).

There’s really nothing to support the claim, however, and plenty to counter it. Dragon minions are not immune to other dragons’ corruption is perhaps the biggest counter point. Sylvari are immune, dragon minions are not.

Enough of this. Guys, Mordremoth is a red herring. Stop falling for it.

It wouldn’t even be a red herring since he’s not directly alluded to in any way, shape, or form. To be a red herring, it needs to be alluded to at the very least, if not brought up in the face, as being the situation at hand when it isn’t. For example, the big face of Oz was the red herring for the man behind the curtains. With the sylvari, there is no equivilant for the “big face of Mordremoth”.

I’m just afraid of the mass disappointment if and when this is not Dragon related, however, Mike Z confirming mentioning the LS becoming more like the personal story suggests that it is ED related. That’s if they decide to form a pattern at this point, of Personal Story (Dragon) followed by World Story (Ramp up/reveal) and so on.

I think he was meaning mechanically. The UI notice and how this update functions is a lot more like the PS’s set up. But utilizing the open world a bit more.

Honestly, except for the temporary stuff, it’s rather what I hoped the personal story would be before we got to the BWEs – PS-triggered events in the open world mixed with instances here and there that would function like GW1 primary quests, and the story of dungeons to function like GW1 missions.

Sigh… Discrediting the theory is just as foolish as the theory simply because WE DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION YET, hence why people a theorizing…

We actually have a good amount of information.

And the fact of the matter is that:

• Sylvari do not feed on magic.
• Sylvari die at the touch of corruption; dragon minions do not to other dragons’ corruption.
• Not all sylvari are tied to the Dream, yet those who disconnect or are never tied to it act little different than those who do (though more ruthless, typically).

That’s enough to discredit the speculation. But what does the speculation have in support?

It was literally formed out of the mistranslation of binary in Zone Green at the Infinite Coil Reactor, where the mistranslation was “Pale Tree” while the actual translation was “End Transmission Sequence.” There is NOTHING out there to connect the sylvari or Pale Tree to the Elder Dragon. But there is evidence against such a notion.

We sill don’t exactly what the dream is.

So far we know that 4 of the dragons drain magic, the two others are unknown. Though we could assume that onf the traits of the jungle dragon is that it drains life seeing what have happened to magma. Much like a large tree than overshadow smaller plants.
The Sylvari spreads like weed, making it easy for them to take area if they ever turn sour.

The sylvaris origin was from cave guarded by hostile/protective plant creatures.

But we know it’s not unique to the sylvari (White Stag) and we know that it is not tied to all sylvari (Malyck). So it doesn’t function like the mental semi-hive mind that the dragon minions have with their Elder Dragon.

And we know that all Elder Dragons consume magic. It’s what’s in their nature and when it’s talked about how the Elder Dragons consume magic in interviews it isn’t “the Elder Dragons Tyrians have interacted with” – it’s about all of them. All six (or more if the jotun were wrong which is possible).

Not all plants are going to be tied to Mordremoth. I mean, just think of how many mobile plants there were in GW1 – ibolga, aloe, treants (only ones in GW2 beyond sylvari, husks, and fern hounds), stalkers and so many more. And all of those plants were hostile/protective plant creatures.

Let’s be frank, there are FAR more tied between sylvari and druids – who were Krytan humans originally – than there are between the sylvari and Mordremoth. If there’s a tie to Mordremoth anywhere among the sylvari, it is via the Nightmare, but still that’s a stretch.

Konig. Is it possible that the Pale Tree is a dragon champion following in the foot steps of Glint? It has it’s own independence and so do its offspring (as does Glint’s)?

We know there is at least one more tree out there (Malyck’s tree – although his friendly nature implies sylvari are good by nature and not nurtured by Ventari’s Tablet) and the cave that the tree’s seed came from had other seeds, is it possible other trees that don’t have Ventari’s Tablet are more vulnerable to corruption? Malyck could be a red herring (he’s putting on an act to make us think he’s good) and we could be dealing with sentient dragon minions (something needed imo to make Elder Dragons compelling villains). Was Malyck part of the same dream as the other sylvari?

Brain storming here, is it possible Caithe’s secret that Scarlet knows is the knowledge of Malyck’s tree? I wrote it off as Scarlet toying with Caithe, but it could also help explain why the Pale Tree is so tight lipped about Scarlet (Caithe tracked down Malyck’s origin and they are hiding it from everyone).

For the record I find the sylvari minion theory to be compelling but not convincing. I’m mostly interested in “Is it possible?”.

Shiren.9532:

Konig. Is it possible that the Pale Tree is a dragon champion following in the foot steps of Glint? It has it’s own independence and so do its offspring (as does Glint’s)?

This is extremely unlikely. To follow in the footsteps of Glint would require the help of the Forgotten, as far as we know. I have never seen the Forgotten near the Grove. There is nothing to support the idea that the Pale Tree might be a dragon champion, but there is everything against it.

Shiren.9532:

is it possible other trees that don’t have Ventari’s Tablet are more vulnerable to corruption?

There is no reason to assume the Pale Tree is more or less vulnerable, than any other tree, as far as we know. We can see in Orr that plant-life and trees get corrupted just as easily as anything else. So could the Pale Tree be corrupted? Possibly. We currently have no reason to assume that this would be otherwise.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

To be a red herring, it needs to be alluded to at the very least, if not brought up in the face, as being the situation at hand when it isn’t.

You sure? “A red herring might be intentionally used, such as in mystery fiction or as part of a rhetorical strategy (e.g. in politics), or it could be inadvertently used during argumentation as a result of poor logic.” :p

As far as the Pale Tree being corrupted, my assumption would be that if the Sylvari are immune, the Tree is also. Their immunity surely has something to do with their biology, which the Pale Tree would necessarily share. I wouldn’t be surprised if The Dream and Ventari’s Tablet assist in their immunity somehow, but my guess is that the immunity is innate in all Sylvari and Pale Trees.

As far as Mordremoth…I won’t reiterate any of the great counter-arguments King of the Dead made in this and many other threads, but it would seem to me that the Sylvari exist with the specific purpose of fighting the dragons. Whether they were created that way by an outside force (The Six?) or are a defense mechanism of the planet itself (like white blood cells), I don’t know.

Shiren.9532:

Konig. Is it possible that the Pale Tree is a dragon champion following in the foot steps of Glint? It has it’s own independence and so do its offspring (as does Glint’s)?

As all evidence goes: No.

There are a few facts to consider:

1. Sylvari are immune to draconic energies; dragon minions are not.
2. Glint only broke free because of a Forgotten ritual. For the Pale Tree to be free, she’d need some similar anti-Elder Dragon magical influence. None has been given by all indication and she wouldn’t know of it if so otherwise she would have spread the knowledge (she’s doing a lot to counter Zhaitan in the personal story).
3. Malyck is not of the Pale Tree. If the Pale Tree was a freed dragon champion then Malyck’s tree would either have to be as well, or he would be like all other dragon minions – fanatically obsessed with serving his dragon.
4. People link the Dream of Dreams to the mental connection held between dragon minions and their Elder Dragon – but Malyck doesn’t have a Dream of Dream experience and the White Stag is on par to the Pale Tree in terms of how it interacts with the Dream of Dreams. Meaning that if the Pale Tree is a dragon champion, so too is the White Stag. And I have yet to see people think such of the White Stag.

Shiren.9532:

We know there is at least one more tree out there (Malyck’s tree – although his friendly nature implies sylvari are good by nature and not nurtured by Ventari’s Tablet) and the cave that the tree’s seed came from had other seeds, is it possible other trees that don’t have Ventari’s Tablet are more vulnerable to corruption? Malyck could be a red herring (he’s putting on an act to make us think he’s good) and we could be dealing with sentient dragon minions (something needed imo to make Elder Dragons compelling villains). Was Malyck part of the same dream as the other sylvari?

• If the trees were dragon minions, there would be no case of being more or less vulnerable to corruption. They would be born corrupted.
• Malyck isn’t likely to be a red herring. We have dozens of intelligent and sentient dragon minions, and each and every one of them are fanatically devout to their dragon. We’ve only seen one out of them all that acts nice – and that was a mesmer pretending to be a Pact member to spread chaos in the organization.
• Malyck doesn’t have a Dream of Dreams experience.

Shiren.9532:

Brain storming here, is it possible Caithe’s secret that Scarlet knows is the knowledge of Malyck’s tree? I wrote it off as Scarlet toying with Caithe, but it could also help explain why the Pale Tree is so tight lipped about Scarlet (Caithe tracked down Malyck’s origin and they are hiding it from everyone).

That’s been my theory. But that’s irrelevant here.

Shiren.9532:

For the record I find the sylvari minion theory to be compelling but not convincing. I’m mostly interested in “Is it possible?”.

As things stand, it is not possible. All possible support for the speculation has been debunked. To be a proper theory it needs support – the speculation that sylvari and the Pale Tree(s) are dragon minions lack any form of support.

Kalarchis.8635:

Their immunity surely has something to do with their biology, which the Pale Tree would necessarily share. I wouldn’t be surprised if The Dream and Ventari’s Tablet assist in their immunity somehow, but my guess is that the immunity is innate in all Sylvari and Pale Trees.

I wouldn’t be surprised at the Dream of Dreams being the cause of immunity, however even if it is a biological thing the Pale Tree wouldn’t necessarily share that immunity in such a case – a sylvari is not a tree. Though they come from the Pale Tree, their biology is completely different. Like the “biology” of a fruit from its tree, until that seed is planted and sprouted, it remains different. Sylvari and Sylvan Hounds are akin to fruit, not trees.

However, given that corruption is purely magical and influences all physical things that magic can influence, then countering corruption is likely to be solely magical in solution.

Konig you’re right and wrong. While it’s true that the fruit of a tree has a different biological structure than the mother tree, it shares the same DNA. However, yes: what affects one might not affect the other. There are diseases and pests that affect trees and not their fruit and vice-versa.

For their immunity being magical in nature, I had that thought too. But why couldn’t it also be biological? Does a magical immunity have to be sourced in magic? And if the Dream is the cause of the immunity, would that make Malyck not immune? If that were true, then perhaps the reason the dragon could get a grip on Scarlet’s mind was b/c she rejected the dream? An interesting idea.

We really don’t have enough on magical immunity to say whether any form of it can be sourced outside of magic. The only case we have is Forgotten magic and the sylvari. The former’s definitely magical, and the latter most likely is given that mobile plants in Tyria has – with the possible exception of sylvari – always been caused by magic.

The last bit has been my theory – and would also account for how Mordremoth got to the Nightmare Court if and only if the Nightmare is sourced from him. By making the courtiers rigid, they lessen their connection to the Dream, thus they lose their invulnerability to corruption. Would explain not only Scarlet, but the irriversibility of being touched by the Nightmare (for both sylvari and sylvan hounds), and why the NC target Soundless despite the Soundless having cut off their ties from the Dream of Dreams as well.

To further my theory on that – I believe that the Dream of Dreams is tied to the Mists, and the Forgotten, having come from the Mists (or so all indications have yet to debunk from GW1), may be using the Mists to counter the Elder Dragon corruption. Same can be said for the mursaat’s phasing out magic, as it’s said it allows them to slip into another dimension – from GW1 lore, that would mean they’re partially within the Mists. On top of this, the only dragon corruption we see in the Mists is either via a Fractal which is copying the dragon corruption and not genuine corruption, or simple pre-corrupted Icebrood during the norn Defend the Mists storyline – no corruption ever witnessed within the Mists.

The feeling I get is that Scarlet isn’t fond of the Elder dragon’s, so if she was a minion of them and decided not to choose between nightmare or the dream but something else entirely then it’s unlikely that she would have been able to recruit the Nightmare Court.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We actually have a good amount of information.

And the fact of the matter is that:

• Sylvari do not feed on magic.
• Sylvari die at the touch of corruption; dragon minions do not to other dragons’ corruption.
• Not all sylvari are tied to the Dream, yet those who disconnect or are never tied to it act little different than those who do (though more ruthless, typically).

That’s enough to discredit the speculation. But what does the speculation have in support?

It was literally formed out of the mistranslation of binary in Zone Green at the Infinite Coil Reactor, where the mistranslation was “Pale Tree” while the actual translation was “End Transmission Sequence.” There is NOTHING out there to connect the sylvari or Pale Tree to the Elder Dragon. But there is evidence against such a notion.

I’d like to point out that this mistranslation is not the main reason to connect the sylvari with the elder dragon. The non-inquest/alpha enemies in the themed rooms in CoE are all dragon minions. In the jungle themed rooms these are for example (most noteworthy) nightmare hounds and husks of various kind. These enemies are also found in only sylvari themed area’s, and mainly the nightmare ones. Same with the flower-turrets and volatile blossoms found in the jungle-dragon-themed rooms in CoE. Some of these are even found in TA only, a place where the influence from the nightmare is maybe the strongest.
I think this makes, at least for me, a very strong suggestion that the sylvari are tied to the jungle dragon in one way or another.

Now, since last patch we have a 3rd place where husks show up! The great jungle wurm spits them out! IF husks are minions of the jungle dragon, would that make the great jungle wurm a chamion of Moredemoth? (rather than a loreless megaboss)

Also, as far as I know, you base your conclusion that dragon minions do not die from each other’s corruption on several monsters in the CoE dungeon (Kudo’s monster and subject Alpha) (please correct me if I’m wrong). From my point of view science can make a lot of things happen that would normally be not possible, so I don’t feel it is a very strong argument.

Plunder.8195:

The non-inquest/alpha enemies in the themed rooms in CoE are all dragon minions. In the jungle themed rooms these are for example (most noteworthy) nightmare hounds and husks of various kind. These enemies are also found in only sylvari themed area’s, and mainly the nightmare ones. Same with the flower-turrets and volatile blossoms found in the jungle-dragon-themed rooms in CoE. Some of these are even found in TA only, a place where the influence from the nightmare is maybe the strongest.

Now tell me, what proof do you have that the Inquest weren’t studying them for the sylvari’s immunity to dragon corruption, rather than studing them because they’re minions of an Elder Dragon?

Keep in mind, that the Infinite Coil Reactor (of which Crucible of Eternity is part of) is studying more than just dragon energies. The areas outside show that they are also experimenting with chaos magic (just like at Thaumanova) for example.

Plunder.8195:

Now, since last patch we have a 3rd place where husks show up! The great jungle wurm spits them out! IF husks are minions of the jungle dragon, would that make the great jungle wurm a chamion of Moredemoth? (rather than a loreless megaboss)

The new Great Jungle Wurm is not loreless, per se. Though it has about as much as any other world boss such as, say, the Shadow Behemoth. But just because it ate possible-dragon-minions doesn’t make it itself a dragon minion. It just means it ate dragon minions.

Well, we learned recently that, according to scarlet (who knows everything), chaos magic == dragon magic.

I’d like to pull out Occam’s razor, at least for the first suggestion. If every other room houses dragon minions, then so do the jungle rooms.

Same with the jungle wurm, I think making the jungle wurm the champion would be the least convolved(??) explanation

However, after that fractal if you talked to Kiel in LA, she stated that the Inquest studied chaos magic then dragon magic. Besides, keep in mind that mesmers use chaos magic. Dragon magic is unique in that it is corruptive and comes directly from the Elder Dragons. So it cannot be a case of “all chaos magic = dragon magic”.

And here’s a counter for your Occam’s Razor: How did Kudu maintain individuality after corrupted by dragon energies? Studying sylvari immunity would seem like a good possibility there.

And I don’t see how making the three-headed ancient jungle wurm a champion of Mordremoth makes it simpler – as I presume that’s what you meant.

I am servant of Grenth, personally.

And my mesmer is a sylvari, checkmate! ;-)

I don’t think “then how do you explain…” is a good counter in general :S
I have no idea how Kudu kept his individuality, maybe he didn’t (I should replay CoE story at some point again). Yes studying sylvari could be the way, but we see also husks, volatile blossoms and flower-turrets there. But also asura ingenuity would be a likely explanation. Maybe the best argument against sylvari as dragon minions is that there were no sylvari in CoE… but that could also be because it would otherwise be too clear and we wouldn’t have this discussion

Concidering the 3 headed wurm, your suggestion would require the constrain that the wurm (only) ate husks while being underground and nothing else, and why they are working for the wurm and were not digested….
I think the “wurm as champion”-argument leaves very little open ends, and doesn’t introduce a lot of new ‘unknowns’.

Also from a more meta-standpoint, the only other boss that got the “megaboss”-status was tequattl, a dragon minion… Wouldn’t a megaboss also require “mega-lore-importance”?

He very clearly did retain his individuality from his dialogue. His personality is unchanged from previous encounters.

And actually, my suggestion would require that it recently ate husks. Regardless of above or below ground. These are “partially digested husks” as in “recently eaten.” And… where does it say they work for te husks? Maybe they’re just generally hostile?

I would say no, a megaboss wouldn’t “also require” a “mega-lore-importance.” It would really depend on why the wurm was chosen to be made. Without knowing that, we couldn’t really say whether or not it “requires” a “mega-lore importance.”

Oh, they are actually partially digested Husks, I stand corrected.

I say they work for the wurm because they don’t attack it. But maybe I’m stretching it here…

I would take that as mechanics first and lore second, given the husks fighting the wurms would only make this “mass zerg content” less needing of a “mass zerg”.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kurzick_Juggernaut + http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Miku that’s all I’m adding I’ll leave the rest to imaginations

Isnt the reason we call the Jungle dragon Mordremoth because its the name of one of the CoE bosses’ attacks?

Kalarchis.8635:

For their immunity being magical in nature, I had that thought too. But why couldn’t it also be biological? Does a magical immunity have to be sourced in magic? And if the Dream is the cause of the immunity, would that make Malyck not immune? If that were true, then perhaps the reason the dragon could get a grip on Scarlet’s mind was b/c she rejected the dream? An interesting idea.

Outside the Guild Wars universe those creatures who possess a biological immunity to certain magical effects or energies was due to said creatures being magical organizations. Those creatures that were the same type as the magic they were immune still exhibit the behavior characteristics seen amongst other users of that type. Dragons of Dungeons and Dragons for example are, as a collective race, not inherently good or evil just like Arcane Magic is not inherently good or evil. Seeing how the Sylvari are free to choose what they wish to be I would say their immunity doesn’t stem from being Dragon Minions but rather being of whatever is Dragon Energy’s opposite, perhaps this is chaos magic.

Plunder.8195:

Also, as far as I know, you base your conclusion that dragon minions do not die from each other’s corruption on several monsters in the CoE dungeon (Kudo’s monster and subject Alpha) (please correct me if I’m wrong). From my point of view science can make a lot of things happen that would normally be not possible, so I don’t feel it is a very strong argument.

Or it could be possible that the Sylvari are not related to the Jungle Dragon in any form and the Inquest are simply trying to utilize the Sylvari’s immunity to Elder Dragon Corruption to liberate their creations from the Elder Dragon’s influence. The reason why we encounter nightmare hounds and such is probably because it is far easier to steal from the Nightmare Court than it is from the Pale Tree. Or perhaps they were donated by the Nightmare Court who may feel the need to have some means of defending themselves from the Elder Dragons.

Zomaarwat.3912:

Isnt the reason we call the Jungle dragon Mordremoth because its the name of one of the CoE bosses’ attacks?

Pretty much.

A recap for those who don’t know (we do have an unfortunate habit of treating old theories like common knowledge here); each of Subject Alpha’s AoEs (may they be meowed to a torment even greater than that to which they’ve subjected me) are named after an Elder Dragon. The ice attack is Teeth of Jormag, the fire attack is Teeth of Primordus, and the earth spike attack that only hits in front of him is the Teeth of Mordremoth. That’s where the name comes from.

After that, it’s a matter of finding a dragon to match with the name. From the Durmand Priory, we know that there have been six Elder Dragons historically active on continental Tyria, which matches the number of labs in the Infinity Coil above CoE, four of which openly study the four dragons we know. Inference: the other two labs are for the other two dragons. One has an aquatic theme and one has a vegetation theme. The aquatic theme doesn’t make any sense for an earth-based attack, so the vegetation wins out.

Furthermore, down in the Crucible itself, the Inquest had areas that were doing in-depth research on three groups in particular, which consist of the dungeon’s penultimate bosses. Destroyers, minions of Primordus, icebrood, minions of Jormag, and the nightmare hounds and summoned husks employed by the Nightmare Court. The first two are dragon minions, associated with one of the dragons named in the Teeth attacks used by Subject Alpha. Inference: the hounds and husks are also dragon minions, associated with this Mordremoth. That also correlates with the Infinity Coil zone I mentioned earlier. Also extending from this is the possibility that the Nightmare is Mordremoth’s corruption.

That’s the gist of everything we know about Mordremoth thus far, and how we know it. ArenaNet has not publicly named him, in either interviews or in-game NPC speech, but Colin did once mention a “jungle dragon” which again fits the theme of all our other evidence.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

That’s the gist of everything we know about Mordremoth thus far, and how we know it. ArenaNet has not publicly named him, in either interviews or in-game NPC speech, but Colin did once mention a “jungle dragon” which again fits the theme of all our other evidence.

You’re missing a bit. Though some are only inferences.

• Colin implied the “jungle dragon” is related to the Maguuma Jungle.
• Jeff Grubb mentioned the aspects of various Elder Dragons off hand: elements, fire, water, and vegetation being the four he mentioned.
• In Wychmire Swamp, we deal with “Blighted” creatures (husks, plant mortars, and grubs) with the Greater Jungle Wurm – these Blighted are said to be not caused by the Nightmare Court but a darker more malevolent source (thought at first by the event NPC Gamarian to be the jungle wurm – which thought beaten down, never actually dies, as when the event chain restarts, the wurm wakes up and goes underground rather than disappear like almost every other massive world boss who leaves a corpse – but is later said to still be present even with the wurm “dead” (as believed by Gamarian, see previously stated note)).
• In Ogham Wilds, the NIghtmare Court corrupt two Mosshearts. The Nightmare Mossheart models is the same as the Champion Ancient Rotting Oakheart in Queensdale (and the Veteran Rotting Oakheart in Thaumanova that gets teleporeted in – side note: Thaumanova was also researching, unknowingly until the breakdown of the reactor, draconic energies; we also see five ED aspects there: water, ice, fire, vegetation, and crystal); said Champion Rotting Oakheart is stated to be corrupted by some hunters of unknown origin and that said corruption can be spread if said Oakheart is not killed. Both Oakhearts hold grubs within them – titled “Tree Parasites” – and utilize mortars (Healing ones though), which is akin to the Wychmire Swamp event.

What if ALL life on Tyria is a corruption. Think of it – natural mass forced into a mobile structure spreading its influence. The sixth elder dragon could’ve broken out of the cycle populating tyria since aeons. The sylvari are called “the lands immune system” yet they are probably dragon minions.

Miroe.2054:

The sylvari are called “the lands immune system” yet they are probably dragon minions.

They can’t be dragon minions. Dragon Minions don’t have free will. Ugh. I get tired of repeating that.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

They can’t be dragon minions. Dragon Minions don’t have free will. Ugh. I get tired of repeating that.

From the outside there is no difference between wanting to destroy something and thus doing so and destroying something because you’re mind controlled. But considering the freedom of will its a huge difference. You are forced to do what you do because of your desires and goals, that IS freedom of will.

We don’t know, what its like to be a dragon minion. As far as we know, the Sylvaris personalities contain primarily the things from the dream. All that is important is, that their will and strive is defined outside of themselves inside a single entity.

Would you call a nightmare court free? I would. They all seem to have the same desire for destruction implanted but from that point on, they are free to follow that desire. Its highly probably that all dragon minions are guided by some hive mind while still being intelligent beings. Look at the risen. How can they taunt you and bring their one-liners if they are mindless forces?

This has been a huge argument in the forums and I just leave it saying that we don’t know the answer and that its a cool theory.

Or from another angle.. what tells you that dragon don’t wanna do, what they do?

Miroe.2054:

We don’t know, what its like to be a dragon minion.

Yes we do. We have tons of examples of dragon minions, and they are all 100% obedient to their master.

Miroe.2054:

As far as we know, the Sylvaris personalities contain primarily the things from the dream. All that is important is, that their will and strive is defined outside of themselves inside a single entity.

The Sylvari can choose to follow the Dream or not. This means they have free will. Something dragon minions do not have.

Miroe.2054:

Would you call a nightmare court free? I would.

Yes, they are a choice. A Sylvari can choose to follow Nightmare.

Miroe.2054:

Look at the risen. How can they taunt you and bring their one-liners if they are mindless forces?

We know that not all Risen needed to be corrupted. Some followed Zhaitan willingly, and thus retained independent thought. Besides, mindless minions all voice the will of Zhaitan, which includes spewing one-liners.

Miroe.2054:

This has been a huge argument in the forums and I just leave it saying that we don’t know the answer and that its a cool theory.

We DO know the answer, that is the point. We know dragon minions do not have free will, and Sylvari do have free will. So they can’t be dragon minions. It’s as simple as that. There’s a lot of people claiming that we don’t know the answer, when the facts are right there, in-game. Further more, you can examine it for yourself. We know what dragon minions are like.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Branded
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Destroyer
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Icebrood

I edited my post late, sorry for that.

So, what tells you that the dragons minions don’t wanna do what they do? The nightmare court are 100% obedient to the nightmare and CANNOT return. here we see how much power the dream can have over a Sylvari. They laugh you in the face and say, “Yay, my friend, lets kill some villagers. Oh, you don’t wanna, well die so..”

Dragons mess with your will and then set it free. A sylvaris consciousness is created inside an independent system, there our alarm should already go off.

Miroe.2054:

So, what tells you that the dragons minions don’t wanna do what they do?

They don’t have the will to want (or not want) anything. They have NO free will. They can’t make decisions. They are obedient to their master, and will die for him as he commands them.

Miroe.2054:

The nightmare court are 100% obedient to the nightmare and CANNOT return.

This is patently false. Nightmare Court Sylvari choose the nightmare willingly, and retain their free will.

“The Nightmare Court is a home to those sylvari who reject the Ventari Tablet’s teachings, embrace the nightmares encountered within the Dream of Dreams, and are attempting to understand them, while giving life to them with acts of evil. The primary goal of the Nightmare Court is to corrupt the Pale Tree herself, bringing her around to their twisted ideals so that the sylvari may be freed from the shackles of Ventari’s Tablet and replace this philosophy of a centaur and a human by one which is uniquely sylvari.”

“The Nightmare Court do not consider themselves “perverse” or “evil.” However, once within the court, their converts are forced to commit dreadful acts that destroy every last ounce of virtue they may have left. To achieve this, the Nightmare Court holds Dark Vigils, which consist of depraved tournaments and other detestable acts, all the while contributing to the growing Nightmare within the Dream. Nightmare Courtiers also have Dark Hunts, as opposed to Wyld Hunts, which they view to be their purpose for expanding the Nightmare. "

Miroe.2054:

Dragons mess with your will and then set it free.

They mess with your will, and take it away from you. Exactly the opposite of what you say is true.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Svanir

“The Nornbear is Jora’s brother Svanir, who was transformed into the beast when the two of them were hunting over Drakkar Lake and he made the mistake of calling upon a presence within the lake. This creature, a champion of Jormag, used the Elder Dragon’s power to turn Svanir into another champion heralding Jormag’s return. "

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Icebrood

“The icebrood are the minions of the Elder Ice Dragon Jormag. Many of them consist of beings, such as norn and kodan, that were turned into the fanatical minions by Jormag’s champions, such as the Dragonspawn. Recently corrupted icebroods are merely covered in ice, still having blood in their bodies, while older icebroods are said to have frozen insides. "

So what you’re saying is, that there is a fundamental difference between being

- “turned into a fanatic dragon minion” and then follow your fanatism and kick a puppy

and

- being created from scrap out of the experiences of your fellow people.

Both includes meddling with wills and ends with someone perfectly fine with what they are doing. If you fall in love, how is that different from a dragon giving you a sudden desire to kick puppies. (Free will wise I mean. Of course I see a difference XD)

btw Svanir chose to embrace Jormags power.

Miroe.2054:

So what you’re saying is, that there is a fundamental difference between being

- “turned into a fanatic dragon minion” and then follow your fanatism and kick a puppy
and
- being created from scrap out of the experiences of your fellow people.

No, I’m saying there’s a difference between:

- “turned into a fanatic dragon minion” and then follow your master’s every command
and
- being created from scrap out of the experiences of your fellow people.

Miroe.2054:

Both includes meddling with wills and ends with someone perfectly fine with what they are doing.

No. One takes your will away from you. It’s gone, you can no longer make ANY decisions. The other allows you to choose for yourself.

Miroe.2054:

If you fall in love, how is that different from a dragon giving you a sudden desire to kick puppies. (Free will wise I mean. Of course I see a difference XD)

An Elder Dragon does not give you a desire to kick puppies. He commands you to do so, and you do as he commands. You have no choice in the matter. You have NO free will. Are you understanding the meaning of “No free will”?

Miroe.2054:

btw Svanir chose to embrace Jormags power.

He was tempted through strong mind control powers, and then lost his free will, and became a loyal servant of Jormag. It’s arguable if that is a free choice.

So when risen call you names, its because Zhaitan has given them a direct order?

When the destroyer queen was slain in EotN, the destroyers went back under the earth, they became uncoordinated. How on earth can they become uncoordinated when they are all mind controlled by the same dragon. (consider that he was able to create the queen) And if they need a champion to guide them, on what was their decision to run for cover based on? On their own self-preservation?

Will in my opinion is the things we want. Our instincts or emotions, and our decisions we make as a result of them. If something changes my emotions or instincts, the act of the decision making would still be there and thus my free will. My will may have been altered, my personality changed, but it is still free.

I don’t really see how you can say, they do definitely not make decisions? Or how the border between mind control and free will cannot be blurred depending on the connection.

How comes so many germans hated the jews in WW2, yet nobody yells “mind control”?

Miroe.2054:

So when risen call you names, its because Zhaitan has given them a direct order?

Not always. Some Risen have chosen to serve Zhaitan willingly, and thus retain free will.

Miroe.2054:

When the destroyer queen was slain in EotN, the destroyers went back under the earth, they became uncoordinated. How on earth can they become uncoordinated when they are all mind controlled by the same dragon. (consider that he was able to create the queen) And if they need a champion to guide them, on what was their decision to run for cover based on? On their own self-preservation?

The Destroyers were being controlled by a champion of Primordus. With the Great Destroyer killed, and Primordus still asleep, there was no one left to give them orders. And so they no longer were a coordinated force. This does not mean they got free will.

Miroe.2054:

Will in my opinion is the things we want.

No, it is also the ability to will something in the first place. You have to be allowed to think for yourself, and choose to do something, or not do something, to have free will.

Miroe.2054:

I don’t really see how you can say, they do definitely not make decisions? Or how the border between mind control and free will cannot be blurred depending on the connection.

I didn’t say they can’t make decisions. They just can’t “decide” to disobey their master. In other words, they do not have free will. If Jormag says “jump”, his minions jump. If Primordus says “throw yourself off a cliff”, they will do so, and not question his order.

Miroe.2054:

How comes so many Germans hated the jews in WW2, yet nobody yells “mind control”?

I don’t think you want to bring a complex historical event into all this which you probably don’t fully understand. Lets leave those specific Germans out of this discussion.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Not always. Some Risen have chosen to serve Zhaitan willingly, and thus retain free will

Thats all I wanted to say, the possibility inside this universe, that corruption in a sense of elemental dragon energy doesn’t exclude free will. And that the possibility of the Pale tree and the sylvari being tied to the sixth dragon is still thinkable.

The Destroyers were being controlled by a champion of Primordus. With the Great Destroyer killed, and Primordus still asleep, there was no one left to give them orders. And so they no longer were a coordinated force. This does not mean they got free will.

If you mean that they keep some kind of slave-attitude I can see, what you mean, but they are still free at that moment to do what they decide themselves. If they didn’t decide themselves, they would just have turned off like robots.

No, it is also the ability to will something in the first place. You have to be allowed to think for yourself, and choose to do something, or not do something, to have free will.

Drug addicts decide for themselves that they want a certain thing and yet are heavily influenced by their addiction. Im certainly not wise enough to understand WW2 but I know that the human nature is easily manipulated by everything, by substances inside your body, by media, by people, experiences, all influences that somehow merge into your world view. We have absolutely no identity without something to guide, something that lets us refer to the different choices we have. Thats what makes us actively choose – not just by thinking but mainly by being all that we have gathered throughout our lives.

And if someone wants to control me, he just has to understand that and mess with my identity, with my memories, feelings and experiences. He can influence me there, at who I am instead of overpower my will. We can see that slow corruption of the soul with the sons of Svanir. (All corrupted to a certain point and still able to make decisions) It starts with temptations and leads up to almost remote control. I still decide. but if that Me ist still Me is another question.

I don’t say, this is, what happens, but its possible and it leaves the Sylvari-Mordremoth question open and it would also explain, with what kind of power the Sylvari soul is shaped.

Miroe.2054:

Thats all I wanted to say, the possibility inside this universe, that corruption in a sense of elemental dragon energy doesn’t exclude free will.

Yes it does. Those minions that chose to join Zhaitan willingly, did not need to be corrupted. But those that were, lost their free will, and became mindless servants.

Miroe.2054:

If you mean that they keep some kind of slave-attitude I can see, what you mean, but they are still free at that moment to do what they decide themselves. If they didn’t decide themselves, they would just have turned off like robots.

They aren’t robots, they are living creatures. As such, they don’t turn off, but they don’t regain their free will either. Primordus was still asleep, so the destroyers continued to do what they already did: Kill dwarves, and eradicate life from the Depths. Their goal did not change with the death of the Great Destroyer, only their coordination did. But they didn’t get free will. They were created to serve Primordus, and never had free will to begin with. So there isn’t any free will to give back to them either.

Miroe.2054:

Drug addicts decide for themselves that they want a certain thing and yet are heavily influenced by their addiction. Im certainly not wise enough to understand WW2 but I know that the human nature is easily manipulated by everything, by substances inside your body, by media, by people, experiences, all influences that somehow merge into your world view. We have absolutely no identity without something to guide, something that lets us refer to the different choices we have. Thats what makes us actively choose – not just by thinking but mainly by being all that we have gathered throughout our lives.

Dragon minions are not being influenced, they are being commanded. They have no option to do anything but follow those commands. A common soldier might disagree with the army he serves, and doubt if the cause he’s fighting is just. Dragon minions are not capable of considering this.

Miroe.2054:

We can see that slow corruption of the soul with the sons of Svanir. (All corrupted to a certain point and still able to make decisions)

This is a mistake many people make. The Sons of Svanir are not dragon minions, and they are for the most part not corrupted. They are a bad example.

Miroe.2054:

When the destroyer queen was slain in EotN, the destroyers went back under the earth, they became uncoordinated. How on earth can they become uncoordinated when they are all mind controlled by the same dragon. (consider that he was able to create the queen) And if they need a champion to guide them, on what was their decision to run for cover based on? On their own self-preservation?

Perhaps because the Dragon minions act similar to the Tyranids in Warhammer 40k. The Elder Dragon is essentially the Norn Queen, usually kept far from the battleground unless they choose to directly involve themselves in the fray. The Champions are the Snyapse creatures acting as extensions of its signal. During the time period of Eye of the North Primordus was beginning to wake up, thus their control will be very weak. This is why the Great Destroyer was created to act as a extension cord for Primordus will on the vast armies of destroyers. With the great destroyer destroyed it forced Primordus back into slumber for another two generations. This sudden absence of his presence probably triggered a recall function within the destroyers mentality, hence why they retreated back underground and became uncoordinated. Despite their various appearances the destroyers encounter in bulk were nothing more than drones as such wouldn’t require free will.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Yes it does. Those minions that chose to join Zhaitan willingly, did not need to be corrupted. But those that were, lost their free will, and became mindless servants.

You said that after I mentioned risen calling you names, which they do after they are corrupted.

They aren’t robots, they are living creatures. As such, they don’t turn off, but they don’t regain their free will either. Primordus was still asleep, so the destroyers continued to do what they already did: Kill dwarves, and eradicate life from the Depths. Their goal did not change with the death of the Great Destroyer, only their coordination did. But they didn’t get free will. They were created to serve Primordus, and never had free will to begin with. So there isn’t any free will to give back to them either.

Could be, probably is that way, still you don’t know, what went through their heads.

Dragon minions are not being influenced, they are being commanded. They have no option to do anything but follow those commands. A common soldier might disagree with the army he serves, and doubt if the cause he’s fighting is just. Dragon minions are not capable of considering this.

Do we know how the corruption works? where do you take this from? I don’t say my version is true, I say its open. And its a viable theory.

This is a mistake many people make. The Sons of Svanir are not dragon minions, and they are for the most part not corrupted. They are a bad example.

Then the wiki article is heavily misleading
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sons_of_Svanir
So the second paragraph isn’t about the sons of Svanir?

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Perhaps

Its 100% perhaps that way. Its a good theory though. I rather wondered why one can say with certainty that they cannot have free will.

Miroe.2054:

Then the wiki article is heavily misleading
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sons_of_Svanir
So the second paragraph isn’t about the sons of Svanir?

Doesn’t appear misleading to me. Jormag using his greater cunning and intellect to take advantage of the Norn’s independent nature to slowly corrupt the race. After they have passed their initiation he begins the process of slowly strip them of their free will and transforming them into obedient Icebrood. If he were just to transform them into an obedient servant form the start his little cult wouldn’t be doing as well as it has, in fact it would be purged by the other Norn immediately.

Miroe.2054:

Its 100% perhaps that way. Its a good theory though. I rather wondered why one can say with certainty that they cannot have free will.

Because it hard to see the Elder Dragons would allow their servants to retain free will indefinitely.

Miroe.2054:

You said that after I mentioned risen calling you names, which they do after they are corrupted.

Being mindless minions, does not mean they can’t taunt their enemies.

Miroe.2054:

Could be, probably is that way, still you don’t know, what went through their heads.

As far as we know, they are drones. They follow their instincts, unless instructed by their master.

Miroe.2054:

Do we know how the corruption works? where do you take this from? I don’t say my version is true, I say its open. And its a viable theory.

The Elder Dragons all differ in the way they corrupt. We haven’t seen Primordus corrupt anyone yet for example (it is entirely possible that he simply destroys).

But yes, we do know that dragon minions are mindless soldiers. We have no reason to assume any of them have any sort of remaining free will.

Miroe.2054:

Then the wiki article is heavily misleading
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sons_of_Svanir
So the second paragraph isn’t about the sons of Svanir?

I’m not sure what part of the wiki page you find misleading. It’s pretty clear to me. Regardless, the wiki is not always a reliable source. But in this case it seems pretty spot on:

“The Sons of Svanir are a cult of male norn who have turned to seek the power of the Elder Dragon Jormag, whom they call Dragon, believing it to be the ultimate totem spirit and in turn worship it rather than revering the Spirits of the Wild. The cult began with Svanir in 1078 AE, a norn hunter who led a hunting party with his sister, Jora, over Drakkar Lake when he heard Jormag’s voice. The voice promised power and prey, and Svanir began to communicate with it. Eventually he became corrupted into insanity, becoming the champion of Jormag known as the Nornbear – a half-norn half-bear creature covered in ice. The Nornbear was eventually slain by Jora.”

(This refers to Svanir, and the cult that wants to follow his example.)

“Over the next 150 years after Svanir’s death, Jormag seduced and corrupted more norn with the same promises. They sought the power of the voice and believed that they were drawing upon it, but in truth it was the other way around. Jormag gained power from the norn it corrupted and hastened its awakening. Since Jormag’s awakening, it has attracted more norn and transformed them all into icebrood.”

(This refers to Norn being turned into mindless Icebrood)

“According to the individualistic norn culture, the Sons of Svanir as a group are not evil, nor are they viewed as such. Though many of them commit evil acts such as murder and stealing as well as corrupting nature by other norn, the members of the cult are allowed to co-exist within norn society in Hoelbrak so long as they do not prove themselves as a threat. Unlike most norn, the Sons of Svanir do not remain independent for their strength, but rather barter for it.”

(In other words, the Sons of Svanir are still Norn, but with a fanatical devotion to the Elder Dragon.)

“Women are not allowed to join the cult because of Jora’s “crimes” against Dragon."

“Unlike for the Spirits of the Wild, the Sons of Svanir have no havroun to Jormag. The “shamans” of Jormag only preach corruption and feed lies"

Miroe.2054:

We don’t know, what its like to be a dragon minion.

Hail dragon! Feed the dragon! For the dragon! You will be consumed by the dragon! The dragon will rule all! The dragon empowers me!

^ Typical Risen, Branded (novel only), and Icebrood dialogue. Just do any number of events in Orr if you don’t believe me, they’re all praise their respective dragon – fanatically so. Exchange “the dragon” with Zhaitan/Jormag/Kralkatorrik as you see fit.

Sylvari never mention a dragon in good view.

Miroe.2054:

Would you call a nightmare court free? I would.

I wouldn’t. They’re a slave to spreading the Nightmare. How they do it differs, how they treat it in relation to their self differs – just like dragon minions honestly – but they all seek to spread Nightmare one way or another, even those who feared it before become twisted in mind to desire spreading Nightmare.

Miroe.2054:

Look at the risen. How can they taunt you and bring their one-liners if they are mindless forces?

Lacking free will != mindless (side note: the lowest of dragon minions do seem to be mindless – they are zergers with a few one-liners that require the brain mentality of a 2 year old, but when those which control them (dragon champions) die they all flee instinctively; respectively, the stronger the minion t)

To be mindless is to not think.

To lack free will is to not make decisions for yourself.

The more accurate way of describing a dragon minion is not lack of free will but the enfocement of fanaticism upon their will. As said, lower minions (e.g., Risen Thralls and Brutes) will have far less intelligence and mind power compared to the stronger minions (e.g., lieutenants and champions) who will have a view of self but not of “free will” – in that, again, they are forced into fanaticism. They think for themselves, they do for themselves, but they undeniably serve their dragon without question.

A fun video I think exemplifies how dragon minions are shown to us as: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2Tp8JopdIc

This video focuses on a choice during Mass Effect 2 with Legion’s loyalty mission where you can chose to destroy or rewrite the hostile faction of a robotic race (the Geth). As I see it, dragon corruption is akin to the rewriting option – to fully overwrite one’s views of right and wrong. To dragon minions, anything that isn’t for their dragon, is innately wrong – it would be like the cruelest of actions that you yourself would be disgusted with the thought of doing.

THAT is how they lack free will. And THAT is how we know the sylvari are not dragon minions – because they don’t serve a dragon with such vehemency.

Miroe.2054:

This has been a huge argument in the forums and I just leave it saying that we don’t know the answer and that its a cool theory.

But the thing is: we do – the sylvari act and function nothing like dragon minions. And the theory has ZERO support. It did at one point, but that support has since been debunked and the “theory” stands in people’s views when it really doesn’t.

Miroe.2054:

So, what tells you that the dragons minions don’t wanna do what they do? The nightmare court are 100% obedient to the nightmare and CANNOT return. here we see how much power the dream can have over a Sylvari. They laugh you in the face and say, “Yay, my friend, lets kill some villagers. Oh, you don’t wanna, well die so..”

That’s the thing. They don’t want to not do what they do (serve the dragon). I suggest reading Edge of Destiny, as it delves into the thoughts of Branded – and how their thought processes fully change, completely, upon the instant of being corrupted. They go from “I got to get away from that thing! (Kralkatorrik)” to “I must follow and serve the dragon with all our might!” Their entire thought process is rewritten upon corruption. They may have the body and sometimes the soul of their former selves, but their mental process is so foreign you cannot call them the same individual. That is how they don’t have free will – they cannot choose to not serve the dragon. That is an enforced mentality on them.

And that’s why the theory that the Nightmare is Mordremoth’s corruption stands – the Nightmare functions akin to dragon corruption, with the exception of physical twisting to the sylvari bodies.

Miroe.2054:

A sylvaris consciousness is created inside an independent system, there our alarm should already go off.

But they lack anything mental of a dragon minion.

Miroe.2054:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Not always. Some Risen have chosen to serve Zhaitan willingly, and thus retain free will

Thats all I wanted to say, the possibility inside this universe, that corruption in a sense of elemental dragon energy doesn’t exclude free will. And that the possibility of the Pale tree and the sylvari being tied to the sixth dragon is still thinkable.

Except that Malafide is wrong here. Malafide is mistaking the notion of higher minions having more self-thought than lower minions. Zhaitan has no minions who were serving willingly – only Jormag allows that. All other Elder Dragons have slaves as minions.

Higher minions have self-thought, thus are not mindless, but still lack free will. They cannot escape it. That’s what is so unique and special about the Forgotten ritual that Glint was forced under – it gave her free will.

Miroe.2054:

If you mean that they keep some kind of slave-attitude I can see, what you mean, but they are still free at that moment to do what they decide themselves. If they didn’t decide themselves, they would just have turned off like robots.

When the Great Destroyer was killed, the destroyers went rampant. They were literally mindless killing machines. The Great Destroyer was their guide and it was gone. They didn’t think, they were not free, they did not decide. They acted upon their created purpose like a machine would – kill, kill, and kill some more.

Miroe.2054:

We can see that slow corruption of the soul with the sons of Svanir. (All corrupted to a certain point and still able to make decisions) It starts with temptations and leads up to almost remote control. I still decide. but if that Me ist still Me is another question.

Jormag is unique among the Elder Dragons. He’s the only one who takes willing converts – and seemingly prefers that. But the Sons of Svanir are not corrupted, they do eventually become such but most still become the mindless low minions. Some become higher minions – thus retain their sense of self and their self thought but they lose their free will (harder to recognize because they, from the beginning, openly served the dragon).

Miroe.2054:

I don’t say, this is, what happens, but its possible and it leaves the Sylvari-Mordremoth question open and it would also explain, with what kind of power the Sylvari soul is shaped.

Find me any sylvari that praises a dragon, and I shall consider your opinion.

Until then, you cannot say that the sylvari could be dragon minions. Dragon minions hold no free will and cannot break free of their dragon of their own will – even Glint needed to be given a will back.