Guild Wars 2

You’re right about the Sons of Svanir, I looked it up, you’re either corrupted or you’re not. At least thats what we see with the dragons we know yet. So thank you for your effort.

Now, still, we both believe that dragon corruption doesn’t exclude a certain amount of intelligence for the minions that they keep even under total control of a dragon. So in the end, if you removed the influence of the dragon be it through any means, (like the chicken ritual in orr) that intelligence can be used freely. And they could live even without the guidance of a dragon.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

We have no reason to assume any of them have any sort of remaining free will.

Glint managed to make decisions after the corruption was taken from her and destroyers may too. I don’t say it IS that way. But don’t say, this is not possible. Something could have happened to to the Sylvaris corruption, there in Ventaris refuge. Something could have happened to the pale tree and the dream.. maybe even to the dragon himself and thus to the other sylvari of the other trees… we can consider it.

So, uh, what sort of respectable elemental dragon leaves minion seeds just lying around for random human soldiers – and who knows what else – to stumble upon?

Miroe.2054:

So in the end, if you removed the influence of the dragon be it through any means, (like the chicken ritual in orr) that intelligence can be used freely. And they could live even without the guidance of a dragon.

Intelligence != Free Will.

See my previous posts on the previous page (thank you, posting to a new page, seems Miroe missed them).

Miroe.2054:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

We have no reason to assume any of them have any sort of remaining free will.

Glint managed to make decisions after the corruption was taken from her and destroyers may too. I don’t say it IS that way. But don’t say, this is not possible. Something could have happened to to the Sylvaris corruption, there in Ventaris refuge. Something could have happened to the pale tree and the dream.. maybe even to the dragon himself and thus to the other sylvari of the other trees… we can consider it.

The destroyers did not gain free will like Glint did. Glint was only able to because of the Forgotten’s ritual. Simply killing a nearby dragon champion does not grant free will.

See my previous post for further explanation.

There is absolutely no reason to believe something “happened” to the Pale Tree, the seeds in the cave, or Mordremoth.

Thank you Konig for the long post.

I see while you two don’t believe in the theory. Because it makes too many assumptions and too many exemptions for the sylvari in regard of the other minions.

Yet there have to be exeptions because something must have happened in their past and the past of the tree. And this something would have effects on other aspect of their personalities and their belief system, their physique, their perception of themselves. It can’t be that plain simple. “Stop writing, Ice is cold water. Ice cannot be cold water.. Ice is solid. Water is not..”

Let us assume and don’t take it for an impossibility

Concerning the body morph of the nightmare courts, for some reason, established courtiers all seem to have the same brown look.. however I wouldn’t compare them to destoyers. Its probably more complicated there.

(Destinys edge spoiler alert!)At a certain point in “Destinys edge” Faolain frees Caithe of a poison she gave her to convince her to join the court. After she almost dies she takes the poison out again. This causes her Arm to become thorny and it starts to rot. Now THIS is what Mordremoths corruption probably looks like.

And lower minions can very much be freed. Its possible all the way down to a chicken. :P

“This causes her Arm to become thorny and it starts to rot. Now THIS is what Mordremoths corruption probably looks like.”

Perhaps. Perhaps not. You could draw a parallel with Zaitan’s corruption that is like necromancy but it something different. Perhaps the jungle dragon can animate dead plant matter (such as husks) and so can the nightmare court, but they are not the same thing.

Actually it doesn’t make any sense at all, for Faolain to be corrupted, she still doesn’t act that way..

Miroe.2054:

Yet there have to be exeptions because something must have happened in their past and the past of the tree.

How can you know? We don’t know what their origins are, nor do we know how they “should act” if uninfluenced by the Ventari Tablet (though Malyck gives a hint to this) or the Dream (Malyck lacks such and the White Stag is on par to the Pale Tree to the Dream indicating it is not unique unto sylvari but the Pale Tree is unique compared to its kind).

Without any indication of how the sylvari “should” be there is no reason to believe that there has to be exceptions to how they “are.”

Miroe.2054:

Concerning the body morph of the nightmare courts, for some reason, established courtiers all seem to have the same brown look.. however I wouldn’t compare them to destoyers. Its probably more complicated there.

False. Not all courtiers. Gavin is a high ranking courtier, higher than Sariel whom we face in both the White Stag storyline (along with Gavin) and the Twilight Arbor story mode (where she dies). Gavin is really bright toned in color (I think Brangoire and Laurant in TA (story and explorable respectively) are too, but they don’t have an image on the wiki). Most courtiers utilize the same colors because they use the same models – few courtiers use unique models. And the brown look is not unique to Nightmare Courtiers either.

The generic “dark” look is akin to how most non-onfire Flame Legion use a bright orange with white stripes model, or how most bandits are white haired. The enemy factions of playable races are made to stand out among the common allied NPCs

Miroe.2054:

(Destinys edge spoiler alert!)At a certain point in “Destinys edge” Faolain frees Caithe of a poison she gave her to convince her to join the court. After she almost dies she takes the poison out again. This causes her Arm to become thorny and it starts to rot. Now THIS is what Mordremoths corruption probably looks like.

I don’t know. Rot is more of Zhaitan’s domain.

Miroe.2054:

And lower minions can very much be freed. Its possible all the way down to a chicken. :P

I never said they couldn’t. I said that they’re mindless (or less minded). They have a much lower thought function and are more of a “kill everything in sight” kind of creature – while higher ranked minions talk, think for themselves (but are NOT free willed – difference between capable of thought and capable of deciding whom to follow or not) and can order the lower minions around (also, when a higher ranked minion dies, lower minions become mindless – often fleeing or just losing all tactical thought and go into zerging mode).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Miroe.2054:

So in the end, if you removed the influence of the dragon be it through any means, (like the chicken ritual in orr) that intelligence can be used freely. And they could live even without the guidance of a dragon.

Intelligence != Free Will.

See my previous posts on the previous page (thank you, posting to a new page, seems Miroe missed them).

Miroe.2054:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

We have no reason to assume any of them have any sort of remaining free will.

Glint managed to make decisions after the corruption was taken from her and destroyers may too. I don’t say it IS that way. But don’t say, this is not possible. Something could have happened to to the Sylvaris corruption, there in Ventaris refuge. Something could have happened to the pale tree and the dream.. maybe even to the dragon himself and thus to the other sylvari of the other trees… we can consider it.

The destroyers did not gain free will like Glint did. Glint was only able to because of the Forgotten’s ritual. Simply killing a nearby dragon champion does not grant free will.

See my previous post for further explanation.

There is absolutely no reason to believe something “happened” to the Pale Tree, the seeds in the cave, or Mordremoth.

Actually, there is reason to believe that something “happened” to the seeds in the cave. That something was Ronan somehow getting through the seeds guardian to bring one out and plant it. A seed that grew into something unique among sylvari trees.

Why were the seeds being guarded?
What is the cause of the pale tree’s uniqueness?

I don’t see a displacement of the seed being cause for something being different with the Pale Tree other than a different nurture. A change in nurture (or rather, how one treats the dragon minions), however, does not alter dragon minion perception so that is no standing evidence for the theory that sylvari are dragon minions.

To your later questions:

Why wouldn’t the seeds be guarded?

A parent protects their young while they’re still vulnerable amongst almost every animal species. Same thing could be the case here.

Who said the Pale Tree is unique? Maybe it’s just the first of many? We know the sylvari aren’t the first of the plant races out there, they’re just the most humanoid – and we were told the Pale Tree chose a human-like appearance. We know there’s at least one other tree (Malyck’s) which makes sylvari that are humanoid (at least more humanoid than other trees); and the Tower of Nightmares was hinted at being sapient and made krait-looking sylvari (Toxic Hybrid) in pods akin to the Pale Tree.

The only way the Pale Tree seems to be unique is in her chosing the form of the sylvari (caused no doubt by Ronan’s influence) and her being part of the Dream (Malyck lacks a Dream hinting his tree may as well- and we know the Dream is not unique unto sylvari, given the White Stag – so the connection to the Dream may be a case of location, given the Dream copies Ogham Wilds and is considered very close to it).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I don’t see a displacement of the seed being cause for something being different with the Pale Tree other than a different nurture. A change in nurture (or rather, how one treats the dragon minions), however, does not alter dragon minion perception so that is no standing evidence for the theory that sylvari are dragon minions.

To your later questions:

Why wouldn’t the seeds be guarded?

A parent protects their young while they’re still vulnerable amongst almost every animal species. Same thing could be the case here.

Who said the Pale Tree is unique? Maybe it’s just the first of many? We know the sylvari aren’t the first of the plant races out there, they’re just the most humanoid – and we were told the Pale Tree chose a human-like appearance. We know there’s at least one other tree (Malyck’s) which makes sylvari that are humanoid (at least more humanoid than other trees); and the Tower of Nightmares was hinted at being sapient and made krait-looking sylvari (Toxic Hybrid) in pods akin to the Pale Tree.

The only way the Pale Tree seems to be unique is in her chosing the form of the sylvari (caused no doubt by Ronan’s influence) and her being part of the Dream (Malyck lacks a Dream hinting his tree may as well- and we know the Dream is not unique unto sylvari, given the White Stag – so the connection to the Dream may be a case of location, given the Dream copies Ogham Wilds and is considered very close to it).

What parents could be guarding the seeds? I am not aware of any historical mention of Sylvari, before the first born. Although it would seem obvious that sylvari existed in the past. Why is there no mention of them? Therefore, why are they being guarded. Are the seeds being protected from the world, or is the world being protected from the seeds?

The dream and nightmare is what I’m referring to when I say the pale tree is unique. Of course, Malyck’s tree could be the unique tree.

The cave is guarded by PLANT creatures.

Given the fact that the Pale Tree chose the sylvari’s appearance, as stated in an interview before release, then that means that those not of the Pale Tree may not be of human appearance. There were plenty of plant creatures in GW1, even if they didn’t interact with us on an intellectual level doesn’t mean they weren’t intelligent (take, for example, the fact that the charr didn’t in Prophecies).

The Maguuma Jungle was full of man-eating and mobile plants. It was seldom explored as it was the second most dangerous landscapes to be in (first being Ring of Fire) on continental Tyria. It wouldn’t be surprising at all if there were sentient plants – other than treants – that lived deeper into the Maguuma, actually. And the cave would certainly be deeper into the Maguuma Jungle given how it hasn’t been found after Ronan.

I’d like to point out one of the recent revelations in the new story instance discussing Scarlet/Ceara. Spoilers if you haven’t finished the current Living Story.

Vorpp: This is Synergestic’s Headmaster Omadd’s isolation module. A sylvari named Ceara went in; Scarlet came out. I reverse-engineered an image of Ceara’s aura patterns before and after. The schism is pronounced and dramatic. Ceara encountered something that literally broke her mind, but the only things in there were things she brought. I surmise she was directly exposed to a part of her own psyche that had been carefully walled off. Perhaps for her own protection? We’d need to do far more extensive study of the sylvari Dream before I could draw any more-detailed conclusion. What I can conclude now is that she’s preparing to strike. Mark my words: Scarlet’s next attack is planned and ready.

Now I’ve personally demonstrated a lack of knowledge of how the sylvari Dream works but isn’t this new information that could support the idea that sylvari are servants of Mordremoth?

“The only things in there were things she brought.” Is that their way of saying, what happened in that machine was connected to a sylvari’s connection to the Dream? She wasn’t corrupted from something external, the machine made her vulnerable to something already inside of her, something she was already connected to.

“I surmise she was directly exposed to a part of her own psyche that had been carefully walled off. Perhaps for her own protection.” We don’t know where the sylvari come from. We know there was a cave with seeds, but we know nothing about the seeds. It it possible that sylvari have the potential to be dragon minions, but they have mental protection (possibly from the Pale Tree) preventing them from their true origins (I think Vorpp does say everyone’s mind has some protection)? Scarlet is becoming unravelled because using Omadd’s device, she broke through that protection and became vulnerable to what was on the other side. The Pale Tree knows about this and tries to protect Scarlet from what she doesn’t know. This could also be Caithe’s secret, Caithe knows that sylvari are on a knife’s edge from being the very thing they fight. That would also be a secret worth keeping. One, that if it ever got out, would change Tyria as we know it.

Now I’ve moulded this new information to fit the idea that sylvari are servants of Mordremoth (or another dragon) and there are countless other potential explanations. I just though this (as unlikely as it might be) would be worth discussing in this thread.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The cave is guarded by PLANT creatures.

Given the fact that the Pale Tree chose the sylvari’s appearance, as stated in an interview before release, then that means that those not of the Pale Tree may not be of human appearance. There were plenty of plant creatures in GW1, even if they didn’t interact with us on an intellectual level doesn’t mean they weren’t intelligent (take, for example, the fact that the charr didn’t in Prophecies).

The Maguuma Jungle was full of man-eating and mobile plants. It was seldom explored as it was the second most dangerous landscapes to be in (first being Ring of Fire) on continental Tyria. It wouldn’t be surprising at all if there were sentient plants – other than treants – that lived deeper into the Maguuma, actually. And the cave would certainly be deeper into the Maguuma Jungle given how it hasn’t been found after Ronan.

Accept Malyck is not of the pale tree and looks like a human also. Therefore, it’s not unknown for Sylvari to look like humans, but that’s beside the point. The point is, Sylvari are intelligent, no matter what they look like. I can’t believe for one instant that the last time the existed, they never encountered other intelligent species, when this time, they have.

Alternative explanations could be that :
- Scarlet’s entity has no direct control of the Dream of Dreams or the Sylvari. It just has an indirect link through the dream and this allows it to create nightmares.
- The Nightmare Court may not be under the control of whatever is providing the nightmare. The Court may in fact have another method of controlling the nightmares that is stark in contrast to but as effective as the Ventari teaching. This might explain why Scarlet, who rejects both the Court and the Pale Tree, has succumbed to this entity.

Or the the Nightmare could be the Ying to the Dream’s Yang. Two sides of the same thing.

Shiren.9532:

Now I’ve personally demonstrated a lack of knowledge of how the sylvari Dream works but isn’t this new information that could support the idea that sylvari are servants of Mordremoth?

Not really. The Dream is not unique to sylvari and natural things of the Dream (White Stag) are very benevolent and peaceful, so it doesn’t function as some sort of tie between Mordy and the sylvari in the “theory” – or shouldn’t, rather. It does in some people’s thoughts.

It actually hints that the Dream and/or Nightmare itself/themselves may be sentient.

Or someone akin to the Pale Tree and White Stag in that they exist in both Dream of Dreams and Tyria has contacted Scarlet.

Or it doesn’t really have anything to do with the Dream and Vorpp’s just theorizing.

Shiren.9532:

Is that their way of saying, what happened in that machine was connected to a sylvari’s connection to the Dream? She wasn’t corrupted from something external, the machine made her vulnerable to something already inside of her, something she was already connected to.

To me, its their way of saying “whatever happened is possible without anything physical involved” and that “the machine doesn’t do anything special like sending the mind into the Eternal Alchemy/Mists” – in what it confirms is just simply “Ceara broke because of something mental-related”.

Shiren.9532:

We don’t know where the sylvari come from. We know there was a cave with seeds, but we know nothing about the seeds. It it possible that sylvari have the potential to be dragon minions, but they have mental protection (possibly from the Pale Tree) preventing them from their true origins (I think Vorpp does say everyone’s mind has some protection)? Scarlet is becoming unravelled because using Omadd’s device, she broke through that protection and became vulnerable to what was on the other side. The Pale Tree knows about this and tries to protect Scarlet from what she doesn’t know. This could also be Caithe’s secret, Caithe knows that sylvari are on a knife’s edge from being the very thing they fight. That would also be a secret worth keeping. One, that if it ever got out, would change Tyria as we know it.

This all still seems really unlikely.

DarcShriek.5829:

Accept Malyck is not of the pale tree and looks like a human also. Therefore, it’s not unknown for Sylvari to look like humans, but that’s beside the point. The point is, Sylvari are intelligent, no matter what they look like. I can’t believe for one instant that the last time the existed, they never encountered other intelligent species, when this time, they have.

Except*

And all that proves is that Malyck’s tree chose to make him look human like as well. Which isn’t saying much given he’s newborn.

Who said they haven’t? I certainly didn’t. Try re-reading my previous post that you quoted. Better yet, I’ll just bulletpoint the important lines:

• “that means that those not of the Pale Tree may not be of human appearance.” – translation: some may, not all will be.
• “There were plenty of plant creatures in GW1, even if they didn’t interact with us on an intellectual level doesn’t mean they weren’t intelligent (take, for example, the fact that the charr didn’t in Prophecies).” – Translation: Just because we didn’t see intelligence from those hundreds upon hundreds of plant creatures doesn’t mean they weren’t intelligent. It just means they didn’t communicated with humanity and humanity thought them non-intelligent (wouldn’t be the first time )
• “It was seldom explored as it was the second most dangerous landscapes to be in (first being Ring of Fire) on continental Tyria.” – Translation: The Maguuma was seldom explored. A race of sylvari, humanoid or not, could have easily remained unknown to the greater documentations of the world. The druids may have interacted with them, but the druids didn’t interact with the rest of humanity so the knowledge wouldn’t be passed on.
• “It wouldn’t be surprising at all if there were sentient plants – other than treants – that lived deeper into the Maguuma, actually. And the cave would certainly be deeper into the Maguuma Jungle given how it hasn’t been found after Ronan.” – Translation: We may not go as deep into the Maguuma in GW2 as we did in GW1, but there’s still more of the Maguuma and even by GW2’s time the cave has not been found after Ronan discovered it, it wasn’t even in GW1’s areas. Indicating it’s further to the west or north in the Maguuma. Unexplored lands = people, places, and things previously unknown to exist.

There’s a LOT of potential explanations for “the sylvari are actually not a new race… they’re just new to this part of Tyria.”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

To me, its their way of saying “whatever happened is possible without anything physical involved” and that “the machine doesn’t do anything special like sending the mind into the Eternal Alchemy/Mists” – in what it confirms is just simply “Ceara broke because of something mental-related”.

Actually, Vorpp said, and I quote verbatim “[Omadd’s] notes say its purpose was to shut down the mind’s security system and open it- like opening a door- to welcome in the truths of the Eternal Alchemy. But our minds are protected for a reason.” That sounds to me like it was something bigger than a mental breakdown- actually, it sounds a lot like the Voices of Koda: " the simple fact that their mind is always open to the Mists means that the Voice can become unstable. Only through the will of Koda does a Voice remain grounded."

EDIT: Also, at the end of each bit of evidence, the game makes you choose between three possible theories- but the NPCs will shoot you down if you pick the wrong one, and the game stops you from progressing until you get it right. For the isolation module, the right answer is “When Scarlet looked across the open threshold, she saw things. And something looked back.” One of the wrong ones was “The cube made her insane. Her vision was nothing more than her mind breaking.” If I understand correctly, that’s your stance on this, but not only Vorpp but the game itself refutes it.

For some reason I’m reminded of Trehearne’s reaction to Syska’s personality after she reveals she’s a servant of Zhaitan, it’s almost like he feels Syska’s is acting of her own accord, but she responds that her will is Zhaitan’s.

Since it seems Omadd’s experiment was strictly within Scarlet’s subconscious, the most obvious explanation is that she is under the influence of something that has always had a connection to her.

The Pale tree warned her not to seek out answers to the questions Scarlet was pondering implying the pale tree knows that terrible comes with the understanding and connection she would find.

Scarlet mentions a powerful creature, and there’s a dragon painting in her lair.

All this evidence seems to add up to a dragon influencing Scarlet.

The question is, which one? The most obvious candidate would be the jungle dragon, however we don’t know enough to early be completely certain.

What if the sylvari were dragon minions at one point but were purified a very long time ago, back during the previous cycle.

Maybe someone, probably the Forgotten, managed to purify one of Mordremoth’s champions in order to use it as an anti-dragon soldier factory. The sylvari are perfect for it, since they’re born fully grown and ready to fight, there’s more or less an infinite supply of them, and they can’t be corrupted which means they can’t turn around and fight for the dragons.

Their incorruptibility might be the result of the Dream, which could be something the Forgotten or someone else attached to the sylvari. I think even they probably didn’t completely understand what it was. I don’t know if the Soundless can be corrupted, since there aren’t that many of them as far as we know, and anyway they can’t completely disconnect themselves from the Dream. They just make it quieter.

When Glint saved the other five races from the dragons, the sylvari weren’t saved with them. Maybe that was because they were considered little more than leafy golems and so not worth saving, or maybe because something went wrong with them—possibly the Nightmare. Regardless, someone saved a few seeds anyway and then put them in a hidden cave where Ronan found them thousands of years later.

^, This. Anet has given too many arrows pointing towards dragon influences. This seems like the best explanation for Sylvari being Mordy’s minions, IF that is how they choose to proceed.

It could very well end up being that only Scarlet has the connection to a dragon, not all of the Sylvari. Hard to say now I feel.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Actually, Vorpp said, and I quote verbatim “[Omadd’s] notes say its purpose was to shut down the mind’s security system and open it- like opening a door- to welcome in the truths of the Eternal Alchemy. But our minds are protected for a reason.” That sounds to me like it was something bigger than a mental breakdown- actually, it sounds a lot like the Voices of Koda: " the simple fact that their mind is always open to the Mists means that the Voice can become unstable. Only through the will of Koda does a Voice remain grounded."

Nice interpretation. Seems possible. Though I took his “our minds are protected for a reason” to be a bit more scientific – such as “if we make our subconscious part of the consciousness, our brains will become overactive and though we think more and faster, it can lead to problems because our brains just cannot handle all that thinking power.” A play off of the whole “human brains only use 10% of their ability” kind of thing.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Also, at the end of each bit of evidence, the game makes you choose between three possible theories- but the NPCs will shoot you down if you pick the wrong one, and the game stops you from progressing until you get it right. […] One of the wrong ones was “The cube made her insane. Her vision was nothing more than her mind breaking.” If I understand correctly, that’s your stance on this, but not only Vorpp but the game itself refutes it.

It was because Scott McGough more or less said that was the case – that it was a sensory deprivation machine and Scarlet didn’t see what she thought she did. Because of that, I theorized she was just hallucinating. But that theory was debunked with The Origins of Madness.

I wouldn’t be surprised given all the player theory nods made in the last two updates that they added that because it was a theory mentioned on the forums.

Visteri.3821:

What if the sylvari were dragon minions at one point but were purified a very long time ago, back during the previous cycle.

The issue with this is still their immunity to dragon corruption. As shown by Crucible of Eternity, they’re not outright immune.

moomooo.9357:

Anet has given too many arrows pointing towards dragon influences.

Really?

Because I only see two:

• Shadow of the Dragon – explained as being a manifestation of the sylvari PC’s main Wyld Hunt.
• And Scarlet’s dragon painting – which can mean a huge number of things; from her target to the entity to even another tool of hers
  “Two” doesn’t make “too many”.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We actually have a good amount of information.

And the fact of the matter is that:

• Sylvari do not feed on magic.
• Sylvari die at the touch of corruption; dragon minions do not to other dragons’ corruption.
• Not all sylvari are tied to the Dream, yet those who disconnect or are never tied to it act little different than those who do (though more ruthless, typically).

That’s enough to discredit the speculation. But what does the speculation have in support?

It was literally formed out of the mistranslation of binary in Zone Green at the Infinite Coil Reactor, where the mistranslation was “Pale Tree” while the actual translation was “End Transmission Sequence.” There is NOTHING out there to connect the sylvari or Pale Tree to the Elder Dragon. But there is evidence against such a notion.

Actually:
1) They do as do all living beings in tyria, just depends on the amount (for example jormags minions dont feed on magic even close to as much as zhaitans do)
2) Sylvari go mad from dragon corruption, they dont die from it… nor age (like dragon minions)… they die from dying… as in burning, ripping, slicing and stomping them.
3) Sylvari influenced by great magic (like the pale trees will which is based on human and centaur teachings) can chose to be free… the one we know who isnt tied to said tree is kinda a vengeful shady kitten and even so he grew up alone… then lets look at something else, who else is a free willed minion of a great force which a person with positive teachings freed with magic and then we had to protect her eggs…

Also last living story confirms scarlet is mad because of the dream and dragon magic be in her.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Intelligence != Free Will.

That actually happens to be the definition of it and the reason why we can create AI that learns and adapts… not to humanoid levels but kinda housecat like at least.

Konig, you keep making the assumption that all dragon minions must be the same, when we very definitely know that they’re not. This is especially apparent when you talk about ‘corruption.’ Corruption is what makes Risen, Icebrood and Branded: an existing creature (human, norn, quaggan, gorilla, whatever) is infected by dragon magic and corrupted to become a dragon minion. It’s a clear paradigm that we see throughout the game, so it’s understandable to think it might be universal. Except… we have the destroyers too. While some destroyers do seem to have undergone corruption, a large proportion did not. Instead, they were born from destroyer queens. Destroyers reproduce, which strongly indicates they are an entire race created by Primordus. Unlike the Risen, Icebrood and Branded, they do not require other living beings to maintain a population. Moreover, they are born as dragon minions. No corruption happens, which means that paradigm is not the universal rule for dragon minions.

This may seem an obvious (and minor) point, but it’s important, since many of your arguments against the ‘sylvari were made by Mordremoth’ theory are based on the corruption paradigm. If destroyers are an exception, then sylvari could equally be different. Remember that the elder dragons represent different elements: as different as these elements are from each other, the way the dragons act and the things they create may also by different from each other. That means that Mordremoth’s minions could be an exception to anything or everything we’ve seen from the minions of other dragons. Especially if they happen to be a ‘created’ species rather than a ‘corrupted’ one.

That said, I’m not advancing any positive hypotheses. I agree that the evidence in favour of sylvari as dragon minions (even if freed or whatever in the past) is rather underwhelming and requires considerable conjecture. What I’m saying is that comparisons to the behaviour and attributes of other dragon minions cannot absolutely disprove the theory, especially when some of the ones mentioned (those pertaining to the corruption paradigm) are already not universal to dragon minions.

Olvendred.3027:

Konig, you keep making the assumption that all dragon minions must be the same, when we very definitely know that they’re not. This is especially apparent when you talk about ‘corruption.’ Corruption is what makes Risen, Icebrood and Branded: an existing creature (human, norn, quaggan, gorilla, whatever) is infected by dragon magic and corrupted to become a dragon minion. It’s a clear paradigm that we see throughout the game, so it’s understandable to think it might be universal. Except… we have the destroyers too. While some destroyers do seem to have undergone corruption, a large proportion did not. Instead, they were born from destroyer queens. Destroyers reproduce, which strongly indicates they are an entire race created by Primordus. Unlike the Risen, Icebrood and Branded, they do not require other living beings to maintain a population. Moreover, they are born as dragon minions. No corruption happens, which means that paradigm is not the universal rule for dragon minions.
.

Actually we know that they are “built”/brood-spawn/cloned from fossiles… Kinda how the pale tree spawns sylvari, oakhearts, fern hounds and husks from pods.

Andele.1306:

Actually:
1) They do as do all living beings in tyria, just depends on the amount (for example jormags minions dont feed on magic even close to as much as zhaitans do)
2) Sylvari go mad from dragon corruption, they dont die from it… nor age (like dragon minions)… they die from dying… as in burning, ripping, slicing and stomping them.
3) Sylvari influenced by great magic (like the pale trees will which is based on human and centaur teachings) can chose to be free… the one we know who isnt tied to said tree is kinda a vengeful shady kitten and even so he grew up alone… then lets look at something else, who else is a free willed minion of a great force which a person with positive teachings freed with magic and then we had to protect her eggs…

Also last living story confirms scarlet is mad because of the dream and dragon magic be in her.

Uh…
1) No, normal races – sylvari included – do not eat magic. They utilize it, they do not sustain themselves on it. Elder Dragons do sustain themselves on magic. And it is stated fact that ALL Elder Dragons consume magic.
2) Yes, they do die from corruption. This was stated in an interview a while back. When they are touched by draconic corruption, they drop dead rather than becoming a dragon minion – this is their “immunity”. It’s not stated in game as such, but it was stated in an interview with Ree Soesbee before release. As for the going mad bit – you’re probably thinking of a single sylvari who was tortured and kept alive for unknown reasons by an Eye of Zhaitan in the personal story – she was not corrupted.
3) Uh… The Pale Tree is a tree, not a sylvari – she was born of a seed. And Ronan/Ventari’s teachings and nurturing was NOT magical – AT ALL. And Glint was freed by the Forgotten’s ancient ritual. No sylvari nor the Pale Tree has been influenced by great magic, let alone the Forgotten’s ancient long-lost-until-after-Zhaitan’s-death ritual to give free will to dragon minions.

Andele.1306:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Intelligence != Free Will.

That actually happens to be the definition of it and the reason why we can create AI that learns and adapts… not to humanoid levels but kinda housecat like at least.

No. The definition of free will is the ability to make an independent choice. Intelligence is not “ability to make choice.” Intelligence is “ability to think.”

AI is not capable of free will, because it is forced to follow its core programming. At best, it is given the illusion of free will.

Olvendred.3027:

Konig, you keep making the assumption that all dragon minions must be the same, when we very definitely know that they’re not. -snip rest-

True, they are not. Destroyers are corrupted rock and lava; icebrood are usually willing victims; Branded are physical things; Risen are corpses reanimated by corruption. They have different persona alterations when corrupted, and they have different elements.

But though they have differences, they also have similarities:

All dragon minions are fanatical to their dragon. They lack free will, and weaker minions lack intelligence – sometimes being outright mindless. They spread corruption where they go, and their corpses spread it as well. They are capable of being corrupted by other dragons’ energies.

And though the Elder Dragons hold a seemingly “preferred” means of corruption, we know that their energy can be used to corrupt he very same things – indirectly, Zhaitan’s magic is used to corrupt living (Kellach and Necromancer Rissa in human and charr PS; a heart in Sparkfly Fen), plantlife (the same Sparkfly Fen heart); Jormag’s magic is used to corrupt forcefully (by the Sons of Svanir whom aren’t (fully) corrupted); Primordus has been confirmed to be capable of corrupting living beings which would take the form of encasing the body and liquifying said body. All Elder Dragons are capable of corrupting the same things, but each choses to corrupt in a specific way for unknown-to-us reasons.

The sylvari lack these similarities that the dragon minions hold to each other. Not a single sylvari praises a dragon; their corpses do not – at least standardly – radiate twisting magic; they cannot be corrupted by draconic energies; etc. etc. They lack everything that the dragon minions have in common.

And please, don’t talk to me like I don’t know this stuff. I did a well in depth research as unbiased as mentally possible both into the means of corruption of all Elder Dragons, their possible personalities, and the potential corruptions of Mordremoth. I was, in fact, among the first to do a serious research into the differences of these forms of corruptions and, perhaps the first to ever attribute an actual supported personality to any of them and how they corrupt differently from each other.

I know this subject in and out – clearly more than you given you didn’t mention that Primordus can corrupt living and both Jormag and Kralkatorrik are known for corrupting non-living beings (Dragonspawn in EoD and the GoA crystal guardian – as well as possibly the Claw of Jormag and The Shatterer by all appearances).

Olvendred.3027:

What I’m saying is that comparisons to the behaviour and attributes of other dragon minions cannot absolutely disprove the theory, especially when some of the ones mentioned (those pertaining to the corruption paradigm) are already not universal to dragon minions.

To paraphrase Jeff Grubb’s own introduction to describing the comparison of the Elder Dragons to each other: They are different, but yet they are similar.

This also goes for their minions.

And, as said, the sylvari lacks the “they are similar” part.

If you want, I would be happy to gather together as many links for out-of-game links I could. Sadly, some interviews were lost – like the one where sylvari are outright stated to be immune to dragon corruption.

Andele.1306:

Actually we know that they are “built”/brood-spawn/cloned from fossiles… Kinda how the pale tree spawns sylvari, oakhearts, fern hounds and husks from pods.

1) Destroyers are not fossils. They are mimicries made from stone and lava, spawned slowly in pools of lava.
2) The Pale Tree does not make treants (the species of plant that oakhearts are). They predate the Pale Tree, and are completely unrelated by all indications.
3) The Pale Tree also does not create husks. They belong to the Nightmare Court (and an unknown non-NC force behind Wychmire Swamp). There is even an event in Sparkfly Fen that shows the creation of a husk – seemingly out of sylvari. Though what they are exactly is unknown – but still, not made by the Pale Tree.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Uh…
1) No, normal races – sylvari included – do not eat magic. They utilize it, they do not sustain themselves on it. Elder Dragons do sustain themselves on magic. And it is stated fact that ALL Elder Dragons consume magic.
2) Yes, they do die from corruption. This was stated in an interview a while back. When they are touched by draconic corruption, they drop dead rather than becoming a dragon minion – this is their “immunity”. It’s not stated in game as such, but it was stated in an interview with Ree Soesbee before release. As for the going mad bit – you’re probably thinking of a single sylvari who was tortured and kept alive for unknown reasons by an Eye of Zhaitan in the personal story – she was not corrupted.
3) Uh… The Pale Tree is a tree, not a sylvari – she was born of a seed. And Ronan/Ventari’s teachings and nurturing was NOT magical – AT ALL. And Glint was freed by the Forgotten’s ancient ritual. No sylvari nor the Pale Tree has been influenced by great magic, let alone the Forgotten’s ancient long-lost-until-after-Zhaitan’s-death ritual to give free will to dragon minions.

No. The definition of free will is the ability to make an independent choice. Intelligence is not “ability to make choice.” Intelligence is “ability to think.”

AI is not capable of free will, because it is forced to follow its core programming. At best, it is given the illusion of free will.

You dont have to consume magic like the mouth of zhaitan to be based on some of its domains/it being part of you… you know how humans can use the blessings of their gods and how icebrood can remove temperature from parts of space to freeze stuff.
Also yes elder dragons eat magic and that doesnt disrupt anything already mentioned… its kinda the entire reason why we managed to prevent primo from waking up because we fed him the magic back that the great destroyer was costing him (since we do know that dragon champions hold part of a elder dragons magic, which like every form of energy cannot be destroyed and returns to its original status).

No, personal story, actually bother to listen to it, sylvari influenced by zhaitan go mad from it/lose their sentience (tortured one was because zhai eye wanted to know the research in the camp at the heart location in the open world), they die by plain mortal wounds. And yes they like for example elementals are immune to zhaitans influence, since they dont leave corpses… and cannot be turned to ice or lava because they are plants… biology 101.
The pale tree is a giant plant yes… as are all sylvari.. you know how a fruit works right? Also nature vs nurture. It takes a computer (a construct of human engineering) a mere second to recognize patters if you correctly imput data, but with a adaptive script and continuous feedback you can create the same pattern recognition over time… so yes the tablet aint magical on a magic of the mists level but on a gene meme level… social patterns and gene memes 101.

And no free will is the amount if intellect required to know how much you depend on others, to know that you exist and what choices you can/cant make, freedom is a different thing, by all accounts risen are slaves of the respective local champion of zhaitan, but the same thing applies to sylvari and the pale tree, difference is that disobeying zhaitan/his champs is impossible because they are physically unable to (you know being dead and kept alive by him) and disobeying the pale tree means that your connection to it is lost (and no the nightmare court are just as obedient to PT as other syvlari are since the nightmare is part of the dream which is the way the tree is connected to sylvari) which seems to have no damaging effect on the sylvari except that they act less naive.
Saying that any minion of a ED doesnt have relatively free will is like saying that a human doesnt have free will because you cant just stop breathing and live on.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1) Destroyers are not fossils. They are mimicries made from stone and lava, spawned slowly in pools of lava.
2) The Pale Tree does not make treants (the species of plant that oakhearts are). They predate the Pale Tree, and are completely unrelated by all indications.
3) The Pale Tree also does not create husks. They belong to the Nightmare Court (and an unknown non-NC force behind Wychmire Swamp). There is even an event in Sparkfly Fen that shows the creation of a husk – seemingly out of sylvari. Though what they are exactly is unknown – but still, not made by the Pale Tree.

Destroyers major part fossils and spawns of/from/based on the brood given by lava mixed fossils, confirmation trough skritt plot and tengu possible.

Both parts are solved early on in sylvari zones, the pale tree can and does create both the oakheart like beings (dont care for specific name its the same model they use for all even the clockheart which was cyborged by scarlet, call em all oakhearts because its the staple champ in queensdale) and husks are shown to be directly related to sylvari growth (as even stated by you) so saying they aint related to the pale tree is same as saying that grapevines arent grapes because of how they are created.

All of this is like basic education, please stop before it shows up that you didnt finish kindergarten.

Andele.1306:

You dont have to consume magic like the mouth of zhaitan to be based on some of its domains/it being part of you… you know how humans can use the blessings of their gods and how icebrood can remove temperature from parts of space to freeze stuff.

Being based on or it being a part of you is not the same as consuming magic.

Andele.1306:

its kinda the entire reason why we managed to prevent primo from waking up because we fed him the magic back that the great destroyer was costing him (since we do know that dragon champions hold part of a elder dragons magic, which like every form of energy cannot be destroyed and returns to its original status).

Killing a champion doesn’t send the magic back. See this – Glint’s body kept the magic, and slowly released it into the world.

Andele.1306:

No, personal story, actually bother to listen to it, sylvari influenced by zhaitan go mad from it/lose their sentience (tortured one was because zhai eye wanted to know the research in the camp at the heart location in the open world), they die by plain mortal wounds.

That’s not corruption. Why don’t you listen to the personal story. Here, I’ll quote you:

Tegwen: Because sylvari are immune to the curse of undeath, we’ve been given this dangerous mission. If we fail, we won’t rise again.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marching_Orders

Andele.1306:

And yes they like for example elementals are immune to zhaitans influence, since they dont leave corpses… and cannot be turned to ice or lava because they are plants… biology 101.

Are you a kittening idiot? Excuse my language. But 1) plants leave corpses. 2) Plants can be frozen. 3) Flesh cannot be turned directly into ice or lava, biology 101 has no influence because it’s a magical transformation. and 4) Icebrood Elemental

Andele.1306:

Also nature vs nurture. It takes a computer (a construct of human engineering) a mere second to recognize patters if you correctly imput data, but with a adaptive script and continuous feedback you can create the same pattern recognition over time… so yes the tablet aint magical on a magic of the mists level but on a gene meme level… social patterns and gene memes 101.

This makes absolutely no sense. Are you now just spouting mumbo jumbo?

The Tablet isn’t magical on ANY scale.

Andele.1306:

And no free will is the amount if intellect required to know how much you depend on others, to know that you exist and what choices you can/cant make, freedom is a different thing, by all accounts risen are slaves of the respective local champion of zhaitan, but the same thing applies to sylvari and the pale tree, difference is that disobeying zhaitan/his champs is impossible because they are physically unable to (you know being dead and kept alive by him) and disobeying the pale tree means that your connection to it is lost (and no the nightmare court are just as obedient to PT as other syvlari are since the nightmare is part of the dream which is the way the tree is connected to sylvari) which seems to have no damaging effect on the sylvari except that they act less naive.
Saying that any minion of a ED doesnt have relatively free will is like saying that a human doesnt have free will because you cant just stop breathing and live on.

Having free will does require intelligence, yes, but it’s not the same thing as intelligence. But… the Nightmare Court are outright disobeying the Pale Tree. In fact, the Soundless are outright disobeying the Dream. So your argument fails there.

And I’m not the one who doesn’t say dragon minions don’t have free will. The game does:

Warden Illyra: Yes. Yes! Look at these runes. The Forgotten were able to remove Kralkatorrik’s control over Glint.
Warden Illyra: Glint remained in crystalline form, but she regained her free will and identity.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ruined_City_of_Arah_%28explorable%29#Forgotten

Glint, when made a dragon minion of Kralkatorrik, lost her free will. The Forgoten ritual gave it back.

Andele.1306:

Destroyers major part fossils and spawns of/from/based on the brood given by lava mixed fossils, confirmation trough skritt plot and tengu possible.

…..

No. Just no. You’re wrong. Do your research some more. I presume by “skritt plot” you’re referring specifically to the Destroyer Queen. That’s not a corrupted fossil, not even a corrupted living being. We have outright developer confirmation that destroyers are creations of mockery of living beings from rock and lava. Here is but one.

Andele.1306:

Both parts are solved early on in sylvari zones, the pale tree can and does create both the oakheart like beings (dont care for specific name its the same model they use for all even the clockheart which was cyborged by scarlet, call em all oakhearts because its the staple champ in queensdale) and husks are shown to be directly related to sylvari growth (as even stated by you) so saying they aint related to the pale tree is same as saying that grapevines arent grapes because of how they are created.

No. You’re wrong. The Pale Tree only creates sylvari and sylvan hounds (aka fern hounds). Not oakhearts, not mosshearts, not willowhearts, not pinesouls. She doesn’t make any of them. They were around even in GW1 – go ahead, look for yourself. And the Pale Tree wasn’t making anything back then.

There is nothing to even hint that they came from the Pale Tree! NOTHING in the game implies such!

You. Are. Wrong.

And husks are not related to sylvari growth. I just said that sylvari are KILLED to make a husk. It’s basically the same thing as a Risen Abomination, which is a bunch of corpses sown together – husks are seemingly dead plants put together.

Andele.1306:

All of this is like basic education, please stop before it shows up that you didnt finish kindergarten.

I could say the same to you.

In tldr version:
Ok.
No its just you shouldnt use parts of dead (or alive) insert x once magical being as weapons cough for example the effects of saladbolg and the jorlag dragon blood sword in wrong hands.
Potato, Potato.
Ok phrasing specifications, animal cells aint the same as plant cells, you may call both parts having a corpse, but they dont work the same (dead plant =/= non functional brain but functional heart/cell core vs membrane and vice versa). Freezing a plant destroys its structure, freezing flesh makes it hard to slice up (for short planty jormag minions would explode in 3 seconds, so no you cant freeze a plant that way), same works with heat, bacteria adapted to stuff like living in vulcanic vents, plants plain turned to coal. Also they are fossiles so no flesh needed.
Also what part of zhaitans influence, the dude who needs a CORPSE, to rise someone as his minions dont you understand… ofc primo can turn embers and jorlag ice and probably kralky the earth elementals because they already use the same type of magic, it all kinda retuns to the point of you not understanding how dragons get their servants.
Tablet aint magic, plant is, plant learns tablet instead of dragon orders, kapish?
No it just says that they are created from rock and lava (or rock and heated rock), now if you look up rock you see minerals, if you look up further you see permineralization (which, while technically different but not fully unrelated to carbon fossilization, is one of the main ways how dead flesh is “conserved” into the future), aka the stuff you get when you put a fossil under the microscope (and yes a nice big chunk of elements that make rock are in em). And dont start on the plant debate you know how carbon works, right?

You arent smart enough, you dont get to have free will, you are you do, also you are a prime example of how words are used in a wrong fashion.

Oakhearts did exist yes so? So did the druids, thorn wolves, husks, by you mentioned snake plants and risen, destroyers icebrood, branded, etc How does existance of something that is now popping up again disprove anything? Also said druid sprit racial, the ability of 2 heart events of syvlari turning into ferns and oakhearts (and no the intro zones are gameplay and story segregation).

Look up grapewine.

No… at least not by any real world standards.

• Caladbolg, not Saladbolg.
• Jormag, not Jorlag.

The fact you used those terms is outright proof to me that you’re trolling. In fact, I recall you making similar insults arguing complete falsities as canon and, iirc, weren’t you the one who was claiming my corrections to your posts to be my “head-cannon”?

But I’ll bite and respond in order. Maybe with a full set of sources, you’ll gain some shine of proper intelligence rather than believed such behind those pupils of yours – though I doubt such, I doubt you even read what I quoted and linked before.

• Freezing flesh also destroys its structure, actually. But that’s besides the point. Jormag’s corruption is MAGICAL; physics won’t always work – same for Primordus. How he corrupts living beings is by encasing in stone and melting down the body, turning it magically into lava (no matter how hot you heat it, flesh won’t become lava). Source
• For Zhaitan. See Kellach and Necromancer Rissa for starters. But we see Zhaitan’s corruption affect plants – not just in Orr itself all over, but also in Sparkfly Fen. Specifically this heart where you deal with Corrupted Stumps – that is, tree stumps corrupted by Zhaitan’s magic. So we have 2 examples of Zhaitan corrupting living beings, and 2 examples of Zhaitan corrupting plants.
• “ofc primo can turn embers and jorlag ice and probably kralky the earth elementals because they already use the same type of magic, it all kinda retuns to the point of you not understanding how dragons get their servants.” – Except that they can corrupt stuff not of their element (otherwise they’d be unable to corrupt flesh and the like). I do understand – far more than you as you constantly prove to anyone reading these silly posts of yours – about draconic corruption.
• “Tablet aint magic, plant is, plant learns tablet instead of dragon orders, kapish?” And this shows that you don’t understand dragon corruption. I linked in my previous post statements that dragon minions do not have free will. No free will means that dragon minions cannot “learn tablet instead of dragon orders”. So – kapish?
• If you read the link I provided, you would have seen this wording: “The Great Destroyer did not seem to corrupt living creatures as opposed to create mockeries out of stone and magma, while Kralkatorrik definitely did.” In other words: where Kralkatorrik corrupts creatures, Primordus doesn’t but instead creates mockeries. Bones – or fossils – would be the same as corrupting a (dead) creature. Sure, there may be fossils included but destroyers are far from simply “corrupted fossils”.
• It’s funny. You say I’m not smart enough to have free will – but I’m choosing to respond to you. And unlike you, I don’t misspell or have terrible grammar and punctuation. Have you never heard of an apostrophe?
• Oakhearts existed before the Pale Tree could produce anything. And druids were humans (Krytan, specifically) who gave up flesh to become more attuned with the Maguuma Jungle. Thorn wolves, husks, and “snake plants” did not, however, exist before. The transformation into the oakhearts and fern hounds is magic that can be used on non-sylvari, no different than mesmer illusions which are used throughout the human personal story and in many hearts all over the continent.

Andele.1306:

the dude who needs a CORSPE

Priceless..

Actually no it doesnt.

Thats corruption yes, they aint risen, but they are corrupt by zhaitan, something which sylvari dont get to be, they still get to go insane from him and die if they get wounded.

Corrupting existing construct beings =/= corrupting beings that are a complex mix of elements.

Again you missunderstand the concept of free will, its able to make choices which influence you, it doesnt mean being able to stop breathing but still survive. But ill let glint, eyes of zhaitan, icebrood and every other dragon champ explain that. And no the article just says that they serve him because… well undead would be dead again icebrood would die from frostbite/malnutrition or put into cryosleep and destroyers n branded turn back to their mineral form/into nice statues.

Corrupt living creatures… yes and fossiles, mineralized remains of beings which he uses to make and brood more destroyers are somehow living now and are creatures… right. Also in game action n text speaks more than a thousand words by devs. Or is it that marjory and kas just lied when they said that the frost and flame was under a year time ago, while your nice non-canon says its more than a year ago.
Yes, with English being my third language and unlike for Germany where its a mandatory second language in education and this being the net im supposed to care about grammar why? Its the context and substance of something you say that matters not if you got your , and ’ correct.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Thorn_Wolf
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Storm_Jacaranda
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Uprooted_Malice
And no, you yourself know that doing stuff like helping the pale tree aint in canon for the human story same as helping asura prodigies aint canon for norn.

Andele.1306:

Actually no it doesnt.

Thats corruption yes, they aint risen, but they are corrupt by zhaitan, something which sylvari dont get to be, they still get to go insane from him and die if they get wounded.

Sylvari don’t go insane from Zhaitan corruption, it kills them.

Andele.1306:

Again you missunderstand the concept of free will, its able to make choices which influence you,

That is not what free will is. Free will is the ability to make a choice, and the ability to think for yourself, and consider other options.

Andele.1306:

Yes, with English being my third language and unlike for Germany where its a mandatory second language in education and this being the net im supposed to care about grammar why?

I think everyone should care about grammar. Especially since most browsers have built in spelling correction.

Andele.1306:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Thorn_Wolf
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Storm_Jacaranda
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Uprooted_Malice
And no, you yourself know that doing stuff like helping the pale tree aint in canon for the human story same as helping asura prodigies aint canon for norn.

I’m afraid you’re not as knowledgeable about the lore as you seem to think you are.

@ Andele

First – dude, cut out the insults. Lore discussions get heated but someone disagreeing with you is no reason to insult them. Even if peeps here disagree about opinions, theories and what’s fact and not, we can still respect them as people yeah?

Secondly, idk what’s the deal with referring to Germany (besides trying to imply Konig is German which he might not be?) but rest assured that your grammar would score you a 6 in a Realschul-test here. (Or a F in middle school for our ‘murican friends)
My grammar is far from perfect, but your lack of care and spelling makes your text posts a ridiculously hard read and frankly I can’t decipher half of your reasoning which leads me to the third point:

No, no, no and no to your obscure headcanons. You seem to have no clue about GW’s lore or how to go about lore in general. Educate yourself before you barge in and claim you’re right/others are wrong.

Andele.1306:

Thats corruption yes, they aint risen, but they are corrupt by zhaitan, something which sylvari dont get to be, they still get to go insane from him and die if they get wounded.

To be corrupted by Zhaitan is to be a risen. They are synonymous. Just like to be corrupted by Jormag is to be an icebrood, and by Kralkatorrik is to be a branded. You cannot be corrupted by Zhaitan and not be a risen. Because “risen” is by definition “something corrupted by Zhaitan.”

You’re right, sylvari can’t be corrupted. But they don’t go insane. That one sylvari wasn’t corrupted. She was tortured. Why? Never explained. But that’s the case. She eventually recovers even, it seems.

And they don’t die just for being wounded. Like anyone else, they can heal from some wounds.

Andele.1306:

Corrupting existing construct beings =/= corrupting beings that are a complex mix of elements.

No, corrupting construct beings is actually simpler, typically.

Andele.1306:

Again you missunderstand the concept of free will, its able to make choices which influence you, it doesnt mean being able to stop breathing but still survive. But ill let glint, eyes of zhaitan, icebrood and every other dragon champ explain that. And no the article just says that they serve him because… well undead would be dead again icebrood would die from frostbite/malnutrition or put into cryosleep and destroyers n branded turn back to their mineral form/into nice statues.

Malafide explained how your percieved notion of free will is wrong. But um… Glint was given free will, and she broke free from Kralkatorrik. Nothing happened to her. They’re magical creatures, dragon minions that is. They don’t follow standard rules like you seem to think. The Risen Chicken in Arah explorable that underwent the same ritual as Glint (with a sylvari right next to it under the ritual’s area of effect too) did not change physically, but broke free from Zhaitan’s will (no longer being murderous and all that).

I’m not sure why you think that a dragon minion breaking from their dragon would mean death…

Andele.1306:

Corrupt living creatures… yes and fossiles, mineralized remains of beings which he uses to make and brood more destroyers are somehow living now and are creatures… right. Also in game action n text speaks more than a thousand words by devs. Or is it that marjory and kas just lied when they said that the frost and flame was under a year time ago, while your nice non-canon says its more than a year ago.

There is absolutely nothing in or out of game which ever mentions fossils in relation to the destroyers. They are always explicitly stated to be made out of rock (if any kind of rock is mentioned, it’s obsidian) and lava/fire.

And lol at saying in-game action and text speaks more than words by developers. Developers wrote and made the action and text in-game. You realize that, right? What they say is the Word of God for the game’s lore. In-game text can and often is the victim of subjective truth (that is, a certain individual’s perceived notion of the truth), and unlike most games is not always objective truth (the actual undeniable truth that isn’t affected by opinions or perceived notions).

Andele.1306:

Yes, with English being my third language and unlike for Germany where its a mandatory second language in education and this being the net im supposed to care about grammar why? Its the context and substance of something you say that matters not if you got your , and ’ correct.

If no one can understand what you write, or if people have to put in more effort than they feel it is worth, then it very much does matter. Also, despite my name, I am not German. German is actually my third language. I am American.

Andele.1306:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Thorn_Wolf
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Storm_Jacaranda
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Uprooted_Malice
And no, you yourself know that doing stuff like helping the pale tree aint in canon for the human story same as helping asura prodigies aint canon for norn.

While I forgot about the Canthan plant called a Thorn Wolf, that is fully irrelevant to the GW2 Thorn Wolf (kitten Anet for shared names). Those Thorn Wolves in Cantha are 100% unrelated to the Pale Tree. Storm Jacaranda is also not related to the Pale Tree or sylvari – I thought the “snake plant” you referred to was the Toxic Hybrid (and here’s a PERFECT example where clear writing is important!), and Uprooted Malice is not a husk, despite similar body structure, and is similarly unrelated to the Pale Tree.

I’m going on out on a (tree!) limb here, and whilst I agree with sylvari not being minions, my conclusion isn’t reached through lore (although Konig says absolutely everything that needs to be said lore-wise to debunk the minion theory).

I come to the conclusion whilst thinking of how RL players would react to a player race becoming even more "special". A lot of us are playing sylvari, but a lot more (random internet calculation) aren’t. Is it worth putting an entire group up in this way? I think it would actually end up causing more trouble and friction than necessary.

Inside the game itself, there’d be an awful lot of work needed to adjust in-game reactions to sylvari everywhere. I’m not convinced the other races would be quite so comfortable with working with sylvari if it turned out they were dragon minions, even if a lot of good work has previously been put in. I’d like to put more words to this than this ( ), but I’ve not had enough sleep or cups of tea to be fully functional yet.

Ceridwen.6703:

I’m going on out on a (tree!) limb here, and whilst I agree with sylvari not being minions, my conclusion isn’t reached through lore (although Konig says absolutely everything that needs to be said lore-wise to debunk the minion theory).

I come to the conclusion whilst thinking of how RL players would react to a player race becoming even more “special”. A lot of us are playing sylvari, but a lot more (random internet calculation) aren’t. Is it worth putting an entire group up in this way? I think it would actually end up causing more trouble and friction than necessary.

Inside the game itself, there’d be an awful lot of work needed to adjust in-game reactions to sylvari everywhere. I’m not convinced the other races would be quite so comfortable with working with sylvari if it turned out they were dragon minions, even if a lot of good work has previously been put in. I’d like to put more words to this than this ( ), but I’ve not had enough sleep or cups of tea to be fully functional yet.

I don’t think that’s necessarily entirely true. As it stands, all four other races have a history to speak of, and that history has plenty to be expanded upon. The sylvari actually have the least potential history since they’re so new. Besides that, would people really get upset if one race had such an importance? I mean their stories ingame wouldn’t necessarily change, right?

Additionally, you’re right, reworking the dialogue etc. to reflect the shift in trust would be a tough job. Oor they could write it as it’s a fact only you and certain individuals know, and it’s imperative you never let the world know so as not to sow the seeds of doubt in the rest of the races(plenty of reasoning for them to choose this cause of action).

Ceridwen.6703:

I’m going on out on a (tree!) limb here, and whilst I agree with sylvari not being minions, my conclusion isn’t reached through lore (although Konig says absolutely everything that needs to be said lore-wise to debunk the minion theory).

I come to the conclusion whilst thinking of how RL players would react to a player race becoming even more “special”. A lot of us are playing sylvari, but a lot more (random internet calculation) aren’t. Is it worth putting an entire group up in this way? I think it would actually end up causing more trouble and friction than necessary.

Inside the game itself, there’d be an awful lot of work needed to adjust in-game reactions to sylvari everywhere. I’m not convinced the other races would be quite so comfortable with working with sylvari if it turned out they were dragon minions, even if a lot of good work has previously been put in. I’d like to put more words to this than this ( ), but I’ve not had enough sleep or cups of tea to be fully functional yet.

Actually no because they can still be a plant equivalent of risen with PT being taco/shatterer/TGD like. But a very important thing noted, how are the sylvari actually special, Asura are a race of underground dwellers with persona intellect in fields of math, physics and natural sciences far greater than anyone but maybe forgotten and mursaat, 2 races by now probably as rare that you could count the living individuals with your fingers; norn, the native tyrian (as in planets) apex predator which can adapt their body to insane circumstances and call upon animals, both in spirit and body; charr being the planets biggest and thus far most successful military force with pure tech (not magitech) engineering and without any special outside force influencing their primary growths and last but sure as hell not least, humans the aliens which have cosmos shaping forces on their side that they can partially invoke upon and which created most of the existing professions and magic manipulation (in the actual guild wars) and are the basis of 5 (8 if you count canthan ones) massive organizations which guided the current shaping of tyria… also the race whos ancient hero delayed a elder dragon, stopped a armada of undead, plague undead things, titans, charr, demons and half demon monster things and delayed the spread of jorlags (and no thats a joke on the beta claw of jormag event, same as taco for tequatl) influence by killing his first new gen champion and oh right, saved tyria from being turned into a pile of death and ecto by releasing the reapers and re-sealing Dhuum.

moomooo.9357:

I don’t think that’s necessarily entirely true. As it stands, all four other races have a history to speak of, and that history has plenty to be expanded upon. The sylvari actually have the least potential history since they’re so new. Besides that, would people really get upset if one race had such an importance? I mean their stories ingame wouldn’t necessarily change, right?

I agree it’s not necessarily true. It’s a complete unknown given there’s a variety of players out there. I just have a feeling, which is really nothing to base anything on, which is why I was out on a (tree!) limb. There’s a lot of unhappiness about sylvari in the first place (whether warranted or not), and I think adding something as earth-shattering as that on top is asking for trouble. I am concerned for the well-being of the player base! It doesn’t particularly matter what history the other races have as many players will never see it/play it/read about it (well, it matters to me, and to you, and to lots of us here, but … well, you know). Allow me to worry over such horrific possibilities. I’m good at it!

Oor they could write it as it’s a fact only you and certain individuals know, and it’s imperative you never let the world know so as not to sow the seeds of doubt in the rest of the races(plenty of reasoning for them to choose this cause of action).

Mm, hadn’t thought of the latter early on this morning (little sleep and lack of tea, you see. A curse!). It would sort of work, but I don’t think you could keep something as monumental as that secret. Okay, our player characters could keep shtum, as they’re written as impossibly squeaky clean, but they’re not working alone in this. Someone else could easily let it slip. It’s potentially dangerous, whichever way you look at it. I’d actually be interested to see how that could be implemented, even if I don’t believe in the reason for its implementation.

Andele.1306:

Ceridwen.6703:

I’m going on out on a (tree!) limb here, and whilst I agree with sylvari not being minions, my conclusion isn’t reached through lore (although Konig says absolutely everything that needs to be said lore-wise to debunk the minion theory).

I come to the conclusion whilst thinking of how RL players would react to a player race becoming even more “special”. A lot of us are playing sylvari, but a lot more (random internet calculation) aren’t. Is it worth putting an entire group up in this way? I think it would actually end up causing more trouble and friction than necessary.

Inside the game itself, there’d be an awful lot of work needed to adjust in-game reactions to sylvari everywhere. I’m not convinced the other races would be quite so comfortable with working with sylvari if it turned out they were dragon minions, even if a lot of good work has previously been put in. I’d like to put more words to this than this ( ), but I’ve not had enough sleep or cups of tea to be fully functional yet.

Actually no because they can still be a plant equivalent of risen with PT being taco/shatterer/TGD like. But a very important thing noted, how are the sylvari actually special, Asura are a race of underground dwellers with persona intellect in fields of math, physics and natural sciences far greater than anyone but maybe forgotten and mursaat, 2 races by now probably as rare that you could count the living individuals with your fingers; norn, the native tyrian (as in planets) apex predator which can adapt their body to insane circumstances and call upon animals, both in spirit and body; charr being the planets biggest and thus far most successful military force with pure tech (not magitech) engineering and without any special outside force influencing their primary growths and last but sure as hell not least, humans the aliens which have cosmos shaping forces on their side that they can partially invoke upon and which created most of the existing professions and magic manipulation (in the actual guild wars) and are the basis of 5 (8 if you count canthan ones) massive organizations which guided the current shaping of tyria… also the race whos ancient hero delayed a elder dragon, stopped a armada of undead, plague undead things, titans, charr, demons and half demon monster things and delayed the spread of jorlags (and no thats a joke on the beta claw of jormag event, same as taco for tequatl) influence by killing his first new gen champion and oh right, saved tyria from being turned into a pile of death and ecto by releasing the reapers and re-sealing Dhuum.

… not sure we’re on the same page here. What part of my post are you specifically replying to, so I can be sure and engage appropriately?

Who says the Sylvari are a young race? The pale tree is young, yes, but there are other sylvari. She’s more of an ant queen, but there are other colonies, and countless more workers.

Now, the Dream may be unique to the Pale Tree, but certainly there is an alternate explanation for Malyck’s storyline, which explains not only why he knows nothing about a dream, but awoke so far from it and injured: That his tree is dead, and one of its last acts was to send his pod away, like a leafy Kal El.

That would also suggest that there is something rising in Maguuma, something that is slowly eradicating the numerous Sylvari colonies there.

It would be pretty handy in a purely narrative sense, insofar as all races would have a specific Draconic score to settle:

Asura: Primordus destroyed their civilization and drove them to the surface
Norn: Driven out of the Far Shiverpeaks by Jormag
Charr: Not quite such a disaster, but Kraalkatorik left an unsightly gash in their land
Human: The rise of Orr destroyed one of the largest Krytan cities (it got better)

and add to that

Sylvari: They aren’t servants of Mordremoth, they’re his victims. The Sylvari of the Pale Tree are quite possibly the last of their kind, saved only because Ronin took them away from their native land.

bonus theory:
That would make the sixth race a group threatened by DSD. Quaggans are… implausible, so either Largos, or else the cataclysm hasn’t yet happened, and the poor Tengu are going to get it. Largos seem easier from an art perspective.

Andele.1306:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Intelligence != Free Will.

That actually happens to be the definition of it and the reason why we can create AI that learns and adapts… not to humanoid levels but kinda housecat like at least.

Programs can be made to appear to be very intelligent, even to hold what appear to be meaningful conversations, without exhibiting any actual understanding of what they are saying, let alone having any choice in what they say, or even any actual awareness that they are saying it.

Computer programs can, and do, insult people, but they are just following their programming. I would imagine that dragon minions are probably similar. They can be highly intelligent, and still be constrained to their programming.

The nightmare court, if anything, seem to be the opposite. They are all about free will, so much so that they embrace insanity as a form of freedom.

moomooo.9357:

Besides that, would people really get upset if one race had such an importance? I mean their stories ingame wouldn’t necessarily change, right?

You’re joking, right? I can’t even count how many people complain that the sylvsri already receive such attention in the game. This would only add IMMENSELY to the complaints and make a special race even more special (especially since doing that contradicts current lore without a lot of either hand waving or altering all those countless dialogues). Their stories would also change completely as they have been presented since before release as being something horn to fight the Elder Dragons. Now all of a sudden they’re dragon minions?

It would be like when Luke is told by Vadar that Vadar is his father. That level of “omg revelation” in the characters.

Wanderer.3248:

Andele.1306:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Intelligence != Free Will.

That actually happens to be the definition of it and the reason why we can create AI that learns and adapts… not to humanoid levels but kinda housecat like at least.

Programs can be made to appear to be very intelligent, even to hold what appear to be meaningful conversations, without exhibiting any actual understanding of what they are saying, let alone having any choice in what they say, or even any actual awareness that they are saying it.

Computer programs can, and do, insult people, but they are just following their programming. I would imagine that dragon minions are probably similar. They can be highly intelligent, and still be constrained to their programming.

The nightmare court, if anything, seem to be the opposite. They are all about free will, so much so that they embrace insanity as a form of freedom.

Any set of ai (not just a executable on a pc) can be set to do a lot of stuff.
But they can also be programmed to learn and decide for themselves, like forced trough the first step of evolution from fish to amphibians (youtube robot learns to walk), they can even be forced into decision making and depending on surrounding input give different results you can even program basic instincts (aka crippled unrefined social emotional responses) based on the insect nervous “system” and if equipped with proper sensors and a pattern recognition script you get stuff like “chirps” of “joy” when the robot is powered up and illogical aggression (aka fear) when parts of it are powered off. Kinda google all that stuff if you want videos or interviews.

Also these imitations of human intellect, programmed switch trigger responses and such are actually still leagues above most animals on earth in terms of “brain” capacity.
And whats even more important, who says where imitation of free will isnt free will. There is this little thing in philosophy (and nowdays in media) called becoming the mask.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Sylvari don’t go insane from Zhaitan corruption, it kills them.

True. But they do go insane. And it changes them, not just mentally, but physically. They’re very mind over matter.

If I had to classify them as something based on just those two points (immunity and mutability), it would be demons rather than dragon minions. They almost certainly are born in the Mists (non-Sylvari can travel to the Dream of Dreams, so it’s probably as “real” as the Realm of Torment) and maintain a strong connection to it, despite possessing plant matter. In personality, they remind me a bit of Razah.

As demons, it would sort of explain why they aren’t corrupted — a dragon probably wouldn’t corrupt an elemental or djinn either, it would just consume it.

perilisk.1874:

They almost certainly are born in the Mists (non-Sylvari can travel to the Dream of Dreams, so it’s probably as “real” as the Realm of Torment) and maintain a strong connection to it, despite possessing plant matter. In personality, they remind me a bit of Razah.

Sylvari are born in the Mists? Aren’t they born on Tyria, from the Pale Tree? I’m confused.

There are some hints to the theory in this LS. When she entered the device “she could only see/meet what was already IN her” (Vorpp says something like this)

I would love to see Scarlet attacking weakening/“destroying” the pale tree; “Freeing” the Silvary – and unintentionally getting many of them under the Influence of Mordremoth.

It would just be a great story.

The big battle in the Grove, a full-powered Marionette, Scarlet poisoning the Tree (“Fear not this Night”) and she is the first to beome a Dragon Minion…

Not very likely, I know…

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

perilisk.1874:

They almost certainly are born in the Mists (non-Sylvari can travel to the Dream of Dreams, so it’s probably as “real” as the Realm of Torment) and maintain a strong connection to it, despite possessing plant matter. In personality, they remind me a bit of Razah.

Sylvari are born in the Mists? Aren’t they born on Tyria, from the Pale Tree? I’m confused.

I guess it depends on what you mean by born. They seem to be born in the Dream well before being born in Tyria; I’m just assuming that the Dream is a place in the Mists, as it seems like the most plausible scenario.