Is Smodur the unflinching believed to be the most likely candidate to be the next khan-ur as he is a descendant of the last khan-ur he is the highest rank in the iron legion and the claw of the khan-ur is kept in Imperator’s Core. Also is the Khan-Ur considered to be what type of weapon (sword, dagger, axe, whatever)?
Each of the imperators are descended of the last Khan-Ur or at least in theory. He’s only in alliance with the other because it benefits them all. His position is a bit more recognized since he does have the Claw. I think that it’s supposed to be a glaive, which is a two bladed weapon usually. Similar to a sword.
From my memory the Claw of Khan-Ur’s discription made it sound like a the name. A Claw. A fist weapon basicly.
The Legions were established by the children of the last Khan-Ur. The problem is the Khan-Ur has to be the strongest, toughest and smartest of Charr. He needs to convince every other charr that he is top dog. Thats one of the reasons there hasn’t been a Khan-Ur in over a thousand years.
Its possible that Smoldur could challange to become Khan-Ur but it has a risk. Its basicly a move to take control of the other Legions. If those legions arent convinced hes both worth it and strong enough it could trigger a civil war. For now the Claw gives Smoldur political leverage because his holding it gives him prestige.
Note that even when the Flame Legion ruled over the other Legions no Imperator of the Flame Legion ever managed to earn the title of Khan-Ur. That might give you an idea how hard it is.
The Claw is an ungue with two blades jutting forward and two blades backwards based on the information we got in Ghosts of Ascalon.
another thing did we know where the iron legion “capitol” was in guild wars 1 and before?
another thing did we know where the iron legion “capitol” was in guild wars 1 and before?
Even 250 years ago the charr was a savage race with either wooden structures or nothing.
They moved in to the leftovers of the human kingdom of Ascalon, mostly into catacombs, like the Cathedral of Flames to make capitols.
They are a savage, brutal antagonists of the game, reworked for a playable race.
As said, there’s really 4 candidates for Khan-Urship at any one time – the Imperator of each legion. Smodur is considered the most likely, due to his possession of the Claw of the Khan-Ur, which is an ungue that has bits of the original Khan-Ur worked into it, as well as 4 gemstones each representing a different Legion. I suspect that it’s meant to look like the Centurion’s Claw from the HoM, since the HoM weapons are mostly based off of lore-wise important weapons, from Sohothin/Magdaer copies (Fiery Dragon Sword) to Stormcaller copies (Mountain Caller Horn), so I suspect Centurion’s Claw is meant to be a copy of the Claw of the Khan-Ur (and that is an ungue by GW1 design).
However, Smodur is said to be unwanting to take the title, and is more likely to melt down the Claw of the Khan-Ur in a show of pushing the charr in new directions.
another thing did we know where the iron legion “capitol” was in guild wars 1 and before?
We don’t know where any capital was, other than the Flame Legion’s being at Hrangmer – however, we don’t know where Hrangmer is at.
Even 250 years ago the charr was a savage race with either wooden structures or nothing.
They moved in to the leftovers of the human kingdom of Ascalon, mostly into catacombs, like the Cathedral of Flames to make capitols.
They are a savage, brutal antagonists of the game, reworked for a playable race.
That’s…. really inaccurate.
Yes, the charr do build over human ruins, but they didn’t “move in” to them – they just built atop of, in an attempt to show their superiority. We don’t really see many structures in the way of charr buildings in GW1, but those we do seem to be either war-mobile structures (those seen in Prophecies and the BMP), or made by the Blood Legion (the “charr homelands” we visit in GW1 are belonging to the Blood Legions). They did advance a lot, but even in GW1 we see, albeit rarely, large metal structures. Concept art of those large structures, since I lack a screenshot
They had more than just “wooden structures.”
Similarly, Cathedral of Flames was neither a capital nor a moved-into-catacombs. It wasn’t even of human origin, though the charr did move the ruins into it.
They did not move in to human houses, but catacombs and altars, like the Flame Temple near Grendich Courthouse and the Cathedral of Flames, which was of human origin, even had a Balthazar statue.
And show me one metal structure from GW1 if I may ask..
Flame Temple was more than catacombs – hell, in GW1 there were no catacombs known to us. In GW2, the only part left are the catacombs which the Flame Legion are doing who-knows-what there. But non-Flame Legion didn’t go into catacombs, nor did they go into human catacombs during GW1 (except Vatlaaw who was a single scout that used them to get through Ascalon unnoticed). But apparently you forget that they built the Black Citadel atop of Rin – and they were sitting atop, not beneath, Rin since it fell. Same with Surmia, Drascir, and all other ruins. They built makeshift structures and used the ruins as bases while they warred with Ascalon – and afterwards, they built real structures on top, ranging from things like Ashford Forum to the Black Citadel.
Cathedral of Flames was not of human origin. Humans never made it that far north. The furthest north they’ve made was Duke Gaban’s estate, seen in the BMP, which reaches to the northern edge of the Seared lands. It is explicitly stated in game that the Cathedral of Flames has ruins moved north by the charr as souvenirs. (" Burntsoul and his band had a pretty pile of Ascalonian treasure down there, sacked from the ruins.") So yes, there are human ruins there, but the place was not made by humans! Also, I don’t recall a Balthazar statue in Cathedral of Flames – the only dungeon with such a statue is Shards of Orr (you probably got confused by the picture of the Shards of Orr statue being on the CoF wiki page, added by Falconeye who almost always gets his stuff wrong).
Go into Doomlore Shrine, there’s at least two there. There’s three in the camp that Pyre was imprisoned at – hell, he was imprisoned inside one such structure.
You can even see them in these pictures:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Doomlore_Shrine_view.jpg (background)
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Charr_camp.jpg
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
I am curious Konig, who exactly do you believe made the structures found in the Cathedral of Flames, specifically instances like the Courtyard and the Dining Hall? I would whole heartedly agree that they aren’t human, because of the massive nature of it, it doesn’t seem human built. I just haven’t seem another culture that makes structures quite like that.
EDIT: I’m sorry if I seem to be derailing the topic. Curiosity just got the better of me.
If I remember correctly the Claw would be like the HoM dagger Centurion’s Claw, but much bigger, a 2-handed version of that weapon. IIRC at least Dougal Keane found it to be really big and heavy.
@Narcemus: Given the Catacombs of Kathandrax, and the dwarven village beneath the Blazeridge steppes (not the zone, but the geological location) visited in Edge of Destiny, I’m guessing dwarven. Though the “dining hall” certainly has a norn touch to it, what with the mounted trophies (but I guess charr are into that sort of thing too with the Giganticus Moosicus?).
Personally, I’m thinking that dwarves were the original inhabitants of Ascalon and the Blood Legion “Homelands.” Kathandrax Steelsoul was a dwarf who held/pushed back the charr, and given the location of where he was buried, well it’s right along the path the charr would have taken when they were in their conquest from east of the Blazeridge – the Ecology of the Charr seems to me to imply that they made an n shape in their expansion, starting on the eastern side of the Blazeridge, moving north, then west until they hit the Shiverpeaks (and norn?), then south into now-Ascalon, only to be pushed back in 100 BE by humans. Thus, dwarves who originally occupied the lands being taken by the charr, like the grawl, fled into the Southern Shiverpeak Mountains – with the jotun occupying the Northern and Far Shiverpeak Mountains, if not having already seen the fall of their civilization’s height, and then the dwarves expanded northwards into the Northern (or, I prefer, Central) Shiverpeak Mountains, ending at Yak’s Bend and Iron Horse Mines.
@Lokheit: Well, charr hands are bigger than human hands. To a charr, it’d likely be one-handed.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Konig, don’tforgot the Forgottens were in Ascalon too. Dwarves + Forgottens means that the charr were a really temporary inhabitants there (maybe it’s just me).
I guess that does make sense. I had always gotten the feeling that the Catacombs in Ascalon weren’t quite Ascalonian make (perhaps having belonged to another civilization and then reshaped), but I was never sure. This would be interesting. Sad thing is if this is true, there is nothing left to prove it. By appearances anything that may have been dwarven in Ascalon was either wiped out by the charr or re-used by the Ascalonians in the building of their lands.
@Gandarel: Not necessarily. The Forgotten are said to have been in the Blazeridge Mountains, but never specifically Ascalon. Though it’s said they were all over the world, but we know this isn’t 100% true as the humans in Cantha didn’t contest with the Forgotten in Cantha, so they weren’t everywhere.
Though… (going to respond to Narcemus which is also about Forgotten!)
@Narcemus: Interesting thing to note about the Catacombs in pre-Searing is that there’s archetecture found within The Rift (the pre-HoH HA maps) and The Underworld. So those could be forgotten origin. I once did a huge observational research on the Depths of Tyria’s various structure designs, as well as The Catacombs, Sorrow’s Furnace, and Altrumm Ruins. I ended up suspecting that the Catacombs was a mix of ancient dwarven and forgotten, while most eastern Depths of Tyria structures are dwarven in origin, and eastern Depths are mostly ancient asuran, with the Far Shiverpeaks’ being a mix of dwarven and seers with Altrumm being such as well (the Far Shiverpeaks’ dungeons utilize 3 architecture designs – 1 being unique to them, one being akin to SF and Charr Homeland dungeons, and the third being akin to Altrumm Ruins).
@Konig still the size the ingame centurion’s claw has in the hand of a Charr isn’t big enough to match the inbook description of the Claw of the Kahn Ur (at leas that I remember, I think I will have to go and check it later). It would also make sense for that symbol of leadership to be something big easy to see from a distance.
Though it should still be one-handed for a charr, since it’s the claw and not claws. Or so I would think, at least.
Claw could be just the name of the weapon for symbolism. IMO for them it would be like a human calling a weapon “The Fist of Insert_Important_Name” without actually being a fist weapon but that’s just my opinion.
Idk, I always imagined it like the classical Klingon blade that appears in every tv show when they make an star treck reference, but maybe I just imagined the size wrong.
I think that it’s supposed to be a glaive, which is a two bladed weapon usually. Similar to a sword.
If the game or lore describes the Claw as a glaive, how do you know it’s not in reference to a polearm?
Ghosts of Ascalon, page 357 describes the Claw: “But the Claw held Dougal’s attention. Two blades pointing forward, two pointed back, a handgrip in the middle. An ungue.” So it does kinda look like a Klingon weapon. There are similar ungues in GW1, weapons for Assassins, most likely a lot smaller than the Claw though.
Oh, and i think there is a candidate for Khan-Ur that hasn’t been mentioned yet…Rytlock. Before you laugh, consider it: he carries a symbol of the kingship of Ascalon, and the other one will be given to Logan who will probably marry Jennah and become king of Kryta besides her, making Logan and Rytlock basically leaders of their people, and of equal status more or less.
And don’t misunderstand, if this would actually happen i would just…give a sigh and think that i have read too much fantasy novels in my youth.
(edited by Frosch.7809)
Holding Sohothin doesn’t give Rytlock any form of social status – among his people or others’ (except maybe as an enemy of “true” Ascalonians in the eyes of the anti-Jennah party). To be Khan-Ur, one must be a descendant of the Khan-Ur (it’s a heritage thing, like kingship) as well as prove one’s strength (this, Rytlock’s got down, presuming he could hold off challenges from the likes of Smodur and Bangar) and hold the Claw of the Khan-Ur. And most importantly: be recognized as Khan-Ur by other candidates (hence “hold off challenges”).
While Eir says she’s going to give Logan Magdaer, I don’t think it’ll remain in his hands, TBH. But that’s just my personal feeling that Wade Sammuelsson will be given it and, as Duke of Ebonhawke and only known descendant of the Ascalonian Kings (imo, Jennah doesn’t count because, although crowned in Ascalon, Doric doesn’t seem to have been an Ascalonian king, even though she’s a descendant of Doric), will have a plot focused around him removing ghosts. But this’ll likely be a living story plot in a long time from now… maybe.
You know how i think about Sohothin, that it does not belong to a Charr. And besides that, i am not overly thrilled at seeing my little idea come true. But as you said, such things are in the future.
I am sure though that eventually the question of the ghosts will be resolved and it does not feel to me that Samuelson will be the one to do it. But that is a different topic.
Sohothin and Magdaer in the hands of Rytlock and Logan does strike me as something of symbolic importance, and as a basis for future developments. Of course Rytlock does not have the rank and status yet to challenge an emperor, but that could happen in the future. I was speaking of something a few years ahead in real world time. Given his heritage, we saw a commoner become king of Ascalon and to be revealed to be a descendant of Doric. A human, sure, but do we actually know Rytlock’s descendancy?
Fantasy storylines tend to follow certain mechanisms, with someone becoming a hero and eventually a ruler being a possibility.
@Konig, Doric was the ruler of a united tyria. To make the spirits rest needs a descendant of Doric, not necessary to be the Ascalonian line.
@Frosch, Adelbern was never a commoner, everyone knew he is a descendant of King Doric, it’s just that he wouldn’t be the next in the line.
@Konig and Frosch
Actually, if he would happen to have Khan-Urr ascendency, and some theory that Konig told me in another thread (I think by Drax?) that the Blood Legion imperator is supporting the rebels comes true, he would be replaced with another imperator as playable characters can’t be baddies… and Rytlock is a high ranked member of the same Legion and probably one of the most renamed charr, if not the most.
If he was reconned to be descendant of the Khan-Ur AND that theory end ups being true, he could become one of the imperators.
I don’t think it would happen to be honest, there are many ifs and things could be better going in different directions, not to mention that I don’ see Rytlock being the leader of the whole race, but the “possibility” is there I guess.
As far as I know the old Iron legion capitol was in Ascalon until the humans moved in and kicked them out, the Black Citadel is the successor to the old capitol and the only one since. Blood Legion have theirs in their homelands, and Ash is unheard of.
@Konig, Doric was the ruler of a united tyria. To make the spirits rest needs a descendant of Doric, not necessary to be the Ascalonian line.
@Frosch, Adelbern was never a commoner, everyone knew he is a descendant of King Doric, it’s just that he wouldn’t be the next in the line.
Firstly, from The Movement of the World:
Some believe that one day, when the rightful king of Ascalon returns with one of the two flaming swords—either Adelbern’s Magdaer or his son’s, named Sohothin—the legion will abandon the city and sink at last into peaceful death.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Ascalon
Nothing’s ever said about Doric’s line. Just a rightful heir to Ascalon. This means the bloke that has the sword doesn’t even need to be of royal descent. Just recognized by Adelbern (I presume, since the ghosts seem to hold Adelbern’s mentality) as worthy of leading Ascalon. On the other hand, it could mean that whoever has the sword has to be of royal Ascalonian descent – thus being Queen Jennah wouldn’t matter (moreso due to Adelbern’s hatred of Krytans).
Secondly, Adelbern was indeed a commoner, even though he was a descendant of King Doric. Similar to Shiro, who was a commoner but descended from Kaineng Tah and able to prove it.
These Royalist fools oppose King Adelbern because he was not born into nobility.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Opposition_to_the_King
If he wasn’t born into nobility, there’s only commoner for him to be born into. Or lower, but I doubt he was lower than commoner.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
@Konig and Frosch
Actually, if he would happen to have Khan-Urr ascendency, and some theory that Konig told me in another thread (I think by Drax?) that the Blood Legion imperator is supporting the rebels comes true, he would be replaced with another imperator as playable characters can’t be baddies… and Rytlock is a high ranked member of the same Legion and probably one of the most renamed charr, if not the most.
If he was reconned to be descendant of the Khan-Ur AND that theory end ups being true, he could become one of the imperators.
I don’t think it would happen to be honest, there are many ifs and things could be better going in different directions, not to mention that I don’ see Rytlock being the leader of the whole race, but the “possibility” is there I guess.
Yup, that one’s mine.
Rytlock turning out to be a descendant of the Khan-Ur doesn’t even need to be a retcon. At the moment, there’s been no mention of whether Rytlock has that ancestry or not – clearly, however, not everyone who has the blood of the Khan-Ur is an imperator. So if the story is going in that direction, it’s just something we didn’t previously know that’s been revealed, as opposed to a true retcon (which is generally accepted as meaning changing something that was said before to better fit the current story, with undercurrents of the writer trying to pretend it was that way all along. Apart from Erfworld, where Retconjuration is an explicit form of magic not available to mortals).
Yeah that was I meant really, not sure why I used that word hehe. Sometimes as english isn’t my first language and I don’t find specific terms in my mind suddenly I write something similar without thinking too much while writing too fast, but I meant that we don’t know about his heritage and that it could be written to be that way (or not) as that part is a clean slate right now.
@Konig, Doric was the ruler of a united tyria. To make the spirits rest needs a descendant of Doric, not necessary to be the Ascalonian line.
@Frosch, Adelbern was never a commoner, everyone knew he is a descendant of King Doric, it’s just that he wouldn’t be the next in the line.
Firstly, from The Movement of the World:
Some believe that one day, when the rightful king of Ascalon returns with one of the two flaming swords—either Adelbern’s Magdaer or his son’s, named Sohothin—the legion will abandon the city and sink at last into peaceful death.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Ascalon
Nothing’s ever said about Doric’s line. Just a rightful heir to Ascalon. This means the bloke that has the sword doesn’t even need to be of royal descent. Just recognized by Adelbern (I presume, since the ghosts seem to hold Adelbern’s mentality) as worthy of leading Ascalon. On the other hand, it could mean that whoever has the sword has to be of royal Ascalonian descent – thus being Queen Jennah wouldn’t matter (moreso due to Adelbern’s hatred of Krytans).
Secondly, Adelbern was indeed a commoner, even though he was a descendant of King Doric. Similar to Shiro, who was a commoner but descended from Kaineng Tah and able to prove it.
These Royalist fools oppose King Adelbern because he was not born into nobility.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Opposition_to_the_King
If he wasn’t born into nobility, there’s only commoner for him to be born into. Or lower, but I doubt he was lower than commoner.
Hier to the throne – > a person who has the right to rule over Ascalon. Since noone ever been a king of Orr, Kryta or Ascalon without being from the Doric line (not even Adelbern was considered as a hier just because he was not the next in line, not even after the rightful hier resigned, and that is a very very strict view).
The hier must be from the Doric line, not a random bloke with Adelbern’s mentality.
As far as I know the old Iron legion capitol was in Ascalon until the humans moved in and kicked them out, the Black Citadel is the successor to the old capitol and the only one since. Blood Legion have theirs in their homelands, and Ash is unheard of.
Source? And Rin was that human city that was later destroyed and the charrs build their Black Citadel there.
I think that it’s supposed to be a glaive, which is a two bladed weapon usually. Similar to a sword.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Glaive is a polearm, similar to a halberd, with a single edged balde at the end of a pole. In no way similar to a sword.
And about the Claw of the Khan-Ur… It sounds a lot like the Centurion’s Claw , but with additional ornaments and gems, and perhaps larger, perhaps the blade length being close to that of a sword.
Hier to the throne – > a person who has the right to rule over Ascalon. Since noone ever been a king of Orr, Kryta or Ascalon without being from the Doric line (not even Adelbern was considered as a hier just because he was not the next in line, not even after the rightful hier resigned, and that is a very very strict view).
The hier must be from the Doric line, not a random bloke with Adelbern’s mentality.
True, an heir to the throne does make someone as a rightful king of Ascalon (at least, in the monarchistic view). However, one does not need to be an heir to the throne.
Furthermore, not all of King Doric’s descendants are necessarily related to the Ascalonian royal line, ergo, doesn’t automatically mean that they’re worthy of being an Ascalonian king by right of ancestry (King Doric was a king of Orr, even though crowned in Ascalon).
Also, we have been given no indication that the second Krytan royal family originated from Doric – especially since Kryta seems to have been ‘remade’ as an Elonian colony, and Mad King Thorn is never once said to be related to Doric (Salma is, but not Thorn) – same can be said for Mazdak, the first king of Kryta ever. So while King Doric is said to have ruled over all human nations, not all human nation bloodlines descend from him necessarily – eventually they did, most likely via interkingdom marriages, but it’s not like every single King/Queen of Ascalon, Orr, and Kryta all had Dorics blood in them.
I had been pretty sure that Adelbern was a commoner before he became king, i was looking for proof of it, but that has been cleared now, thanks König.
As others said, no need for a retcon for Rytlock’s heritage, i was pretty sure his heritage hasn’t been given yet. That lead me to this idea in the first place, things left open for future development, and seeing how important the characters of Logan and Rytlock are already, and that this would eventually be shown by their status. Logan as King of Kryta and Rytlock as emperor or even Khan-Ur, holding one of the swords each…
I am glad this led to a good discussion and i wasn’t laughed at, thanks everyone. I agree that there is not a high likelyhood for it to happen.
Concerning the ghosts, i am sure we will eventually see them be put to rest, but it never felt to me like Jennah will be the one to do it. Maybe Logan should he become King besides Jennah (and therefore getting the right to do so by marriage), or Samuelsson, or someone yet unrevealed from the Ascalonian line. My bet is on the last one, but we shall see. It’s just a hunch…
I think that it’s supposed to be a glaive, which is a two bladed weapon usually. Similar to a sword.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Glaive is a polearm, similar to a halberd, with a single edged balde at the end of a pole. In no way similar to a sword.
And about the Claw of the Khan-Ur… It sounds a lot like the Centurion’s Claw , but with additional ornaments and gems, and perhaps larger, perhaps the blade length being close to that of a sword.
Technically, Tuomir is correct.
In practise, due to a couple of misnomers the term ‘glaive’ has started to be applied to weapons similar to chakrams and the Centurion’s Claw. This one can’t be laid at Blizzard’s doorstep – the usage predates that.
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