Guild Wars 2

Hello,

While I am not an expert, i’ve been an avid fan of Gw1 lore and getting ever so often bits of answers in Gw2 to long forgotten mysteries always gets me hyped to the point where i tell myself that i was right to stick with the game despite the whole Scarlet incident. I’m posting here in the hopes of either confirmation or denial of the dots i’ve connected, eitherway it’s peace of mind or rather the confidence of asking the right questions in the future, i’m after.

a. humans are aliens to this world brought here through the mists by the 6 gods
b. the 6 gods preceeded us taking dominion/reshaping of this world before we arrived
c. the 6 gods focused on humans while seeing native species as tools, nuisance or prey
d. humans multiplied like locaust and overpopulated gw1 until the rise of the dragons

I believe these statements to be accurate allthough please tell me wrong if not and why i’m mistaking. Based on these statements, the foreseeable twist in the gw2 story line bugging my brain would be that by fighting Baltha we humans realize that we are actually fighting ourselves, that we are part of the problem rather than the solution and that our mere presence causes the inbalance which ultimatly dooms this world.

Reasons that nag at me, as to beeing right about this, are the following dots :

1. I never baught the part about the birth of Razah beeing a mere copy of the first specie that happend to trigger the anomalie/forge or whatever this device was in the realm of torment. It would make more sense that the device was stuck in its latest configuration from long ago before we happen to stumble upon it.

2. While it is mostly assumed that humans left a dying planet to come to tyria, is this actually canon lore ? Are there clear indication that humans could not have originated from the mists as a genuine creation (or recreation as part of a noa arks safeguard) by the 6 gods in their own image.

3. The 6 gods were initially depictaed with armor, hoods and whatnot hiding their actual appearance (not talking about the statues in later human settlements, but about the murals backdated to when they walked among us) which always begged the question if they were human-like or not. With the newly added appearance of bearded Baltha (genuine look after shattering his active illusions), its pretty clear that he has striking ressemblance with humans.

4. Kormir’s compatibility to become Abbadon successor, apparently this was worth a long and patient wait to have ideal conditions, hence beeing human could be seen as a pre-requirement on top of other specifics.

5. Impossibility for humans to interbreed with native species while Dwayna did have a son with a human (everything we know points at Melchior, allthough debatable).

6. All native species have predominant beast-like features (norns beeing the exception but still rumored to be distant offspring from Kodans and with strong ties to animal spirits) which lets humans kinda stand out in the crowd. The only apparent genetic ressemblance on tyria older than the first humans beeing therefor the 6 gods.

7. Other humanoid, more human alike occurences always having strong ties to the mists (the giant we free at the end of one of the fractals, the ley-line anomalies we chase after for the shadowstone, lord Odran first to explored the mists, etc).

8. The fact that in all logic (even from an underdogs point of view) asuras should be the pre-dominant intellectual specie of tyria (much like irl humans versus dinosaures) if it wasn’t for outerwordly interference by the 6 gods disturbing the natural selection.

If we are honest, all our heroics since gw1 and throughout gw2 have caused more harm than good to the health of the planet. The new expansion might be the moment we will get the nasty bill for what we have been doing up until now.

Finally, the new attitude of Baltha, given this scenario, is perfectly in line. He doesn’t care about the planet or it natives inhabitants, not even about humans since he can recreate a human population anew from the mists after clearing his agenda.

Thanks for all your thoughts on this topic, bad or good, both are welcome.

The problem is not inherent in humans, more specifically, powerful beings manipulating magic, or disagreeing over what to do with it. I do not particularly see anything special or problematic, it’s a kind of common narrative with fantasy games.

There is a reversal of Waracrat there, in Warcraft Orc they “invaded” the planet of humans, but then they became part of the solution, following the old script of blaming evils on “bigger forces” who manipulated everyone. Then there is room for demons, gods, ancient races.

What is very creative and interesting are the asuras. Our technological Jedi came from within the earth and not from space.

If we are honest, all our heroics since gw1 and throughout gw2 have caused more harm than good to the health of the planet. The new expansion might be the moment we will get the nasty bill for what we have been doing up until now.

Tyria reminds our own world that it is a succession of tragedies. In this it distances more from the narrative cliches that generally follow the script “everything was perfect before the invasion”. Tyria it was not perfect, and it will not be.

A small comment on one point, I personally don’t believe it’s possible for malchor to be Grenth’s father, because grenth was already there when Malchor got personal with Dwayna

Amaimon.7823:

A small comment on one point, I personally don’t believe it’s possible for malchor to be Grenth’s father, because grenth was already there when Malchor got personal with Dwayna

…You’ve got a point. Could be an oversight on Anet’s part though, cause its still weirdly coincidental that Malchor and Grenth’s father are very similar. I suppose it could be that Dwayna has a type.

The Greyhawk.9107:

Amaimon.7823:

A small comment on one point, I personally don’t believe it’s possible for malchor to be Grenth’s father, because grenth was already there when Malchor got personal with Dwayna

…You’ve got a point. Could be an oversight on Anet’s part though, cause its still weirdly coincidental that Malchor and Grenth’s father are very similar. I suppose it could be that Dwayna has a type.

There is one scenario that makes it possible, and that’s that Malchor and Dwayna were already frisky a long time ago, and several years later, Dwayna asked him to make the statues, although that still leaves me raising some eyebrows.

I mean, it was Dhuum and Balthazar’s father who were gods at tree time of coming to Tyria, right

Goullmir.6490:

a. humans are aliens to this world brought here through the mists by the 6 gods
b. the 6 gods preceeded us taking dominion/reshaping of this world before we arrived
c. the 6 gods focused on humans while seeing native species as tools, nuisance or prey
d. humans multiplied like locaust and overpopulated gw1 until the rise of the dragons

a) True, as confirmed by the recent article about the movement of Elona.
b) Less confirmed, but probably a factor. We don’t know when exactly the gods got here, but they definitely brought humans in and made certain they survived
c) False. There’s no evidence of this anywhere, and humans were never told to go and fight everyone and conquer the land. They just naturally expand as humans are want to do.
d) Definitely false. Humans were pretty much at the peak at pre-Searing time. After the Searing, Ascalon fell to the charr, Orr sunk down into the sea, and Kryta’s borders shrank somewhat. They even had to move the capital from Lion’s Arch to Divinity’s Reach, which was barely even a village back in GW1 times. I even remember someone making an observation about GW that wherever the hero went, things generally got worse rather than better, and humanity kept having to retreat into smaller groups and areas.

1. I can’t personally respond to this, as Razah was the only hero I didn’t unlock in GW1 (to my eternal shame), but we have a lot of humanoid races now, with the charr being the least humanoid of the major races. I don’t think it’s all that outrageous considering all the different races we have now.

2. We know nothing about humans before they came to Tyria. For all we know, the gods crafted us out of clay and breathed life into us.

3. There’s probably a reason why the Six Gods look so much like humans, but there’s been no discussion about it.

4. We don’t know what allowed Kormir to absorb Abaddon’s god-essence and stabilize it, except that it required a strong will. Lots are theorizing that the other sentient races could have absorbed the energy, if they had been around and volunteered to “sacrifice” themselves. This has happened so infrequently, we can’t really test it out.

5. We’ve been told that all the species are incapable of interspecies breeding, not just humans. It’s not surprising that the sylvari can’t reproduce on their own, but it would’ve been interesting to see a half-norn, half-asura walking around, with those giant floppy ears. Of course, if the story about Grenth being half-human and a demigod are true, it certainly does imply something about the Six relative to humanity.

6. I wouldn’t exactly call the asura “beastly”. They are goblinoid, which is more monstrous than beastly. The ogres are similarly monstrous without that beastly component I think you’re looking for, and same with the ettins. Unless you see something about them that I’m not.

7. Nothing to say about this.

8. First off, the reason why the asura weren’t dominant before is because they were a subterranean species, always preferring to live in caves. You really see this in Taimi’s logs when she spends all her time in the Rata Novus lab after being born on the surface. She finds strange comfort in always having that rocky ceiling overhead, and returning to her “natural habitat”, despite being born on the surface. As for why they still aren’t is twofold:
i) They aren’t especially good at being social. Yes, they form krewes to achieve common goals, but each asura likes to think they are the smartest one in the room and krewes will eventually break up. As such, they are competitive and tend to have secret labs ALL over the world.
ii) Often, they underthink the ramifications of their inventions and they backfire on the asura. Two examples of this are in Metrica Province, where during one event they start quizzing a group of skritt who get too smart for them and start fighting back; and in Timberline Falls, where charging an ettin’s cognitive powers makes him super violent and starts attacking everyone. There are probably other examples, but those two are the ones that I immediately remember.
As such the asura are the brains, but needs the other races to be the practical counterbalance.

Hopefully, that clears up some of your misguided assumptions. I’m not the best at keeping everything straight, and if I’m wrong I’ll be correctly shortly, but I generally know what’s going on in the world.

Or they start messing with dragon magics, colliding it with leyline magic to create a supersource of energy, until a Sylvari facerolls the controls and creates a Maguuman Fukushima..

Speaking of which, whatever happened to the inquest’ hexogonal collider after we took down Kudu. I get he was in charge of that krewe, but the inquest pumped so many resources and money/time into the collider I can’t believe they let a kreweleader’s death be the end of it

Goullmir.6490:

a. humans are aliens to this world brought here through the mists by the 6 gods
b. the 6 gods preceeded us taking dominion/reshaping of this world before we arrived
c. the 6 gods focused on humans while seeing native species as tools, nuisance or prey
d. humans multiplied like locaust and overpopulated gw1 until the rise of the dragons

Of these, only a is correct.

B is theoretically plausible however the Orrian History Scrolls make it out to sound like humans came to the world in the very same portal that Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru did. So that reshaping of the world “before humans arrived” would have had to be very, very fast or that portal open for ages.

C is definitely false – only Balthazar saw non-humans as less than humans. Melandru and Dwayna both preached for peace with natives. And even then, Balthazar saw them not as tools, but subjects to conquer and rule over.

D is pretty off too, though could be used as an exaggeration. It was not the rise of the dragons that led to humanity’s fall, but the events of GW1 (Searing, Cataclysm, Affliction, and Nightfall).

Goullmir.6490:

-snip points 1. through 8-

1. I’m not sure where you got “copy of the first species”. Razah was a copy of humans, simple as that – no first or last or second or whatever involved. Best we know, The Mists created Razah after interacting with a human that it used as a template to base off of. All demons are like this, though most are very off the mark of what they’re a copy of (almost every Torment Demon in GW1 can be likened to a creature seen elsewhere in the game, I believe – from centaurs to ntouka birds). When Razah was created is 100% unknown but his dialogue makes it out to be quite some time.
2. What’s canon is that they came from another world – beyond that is theory. We are told that something happened in the Mists that “only Abaddon knows”, that Lyssa helped a “them” (unclear if them refers to humans or the other gods though) forget something in the past, and we know that Dwayna brougt humans to Tyria (world) looking for a paradise. Humans are not creations from the Mists – not directly, at least. It should be noted that lore says that )everything+ comes from the Mists, that would mean the first human (the GW version of Adam and Eve basically) would have been made from the Mists. And same goes for every charr, asura, Elder Dragon, centaur, norn, kodan, etc. etc. Though the race may not directly come from the Mists, they’d evolve from another race as an offshoot, and that “another race” would have either done the same or come from the Mists.
3. There’s only one such mural you refer to, and that was undoubtably meant to be an artistic rendering. Perhaps even created (as it was concept art before an in-game mural) because the looks and personifications of the gods was not yet set in stone during development. Every other mural you’ll see gives them a very human appearance, though with clear alterations that fit their associated domains.
4. We’re not sure what those “ideal conditions” were. For all we know, it was “wait and see if Abaddon acts up again” just as much as it could have been “we need a human female with strong will and strong curiosity but knows to protect people from dangerous knowledge even if she looks into it and doesn’t let herself be changed by such knowledge.”
5. Nothing says humans cannot interbreed with any native species, technically speaking. We only got confirmation about the five playable races not having interbreeding capabilities. That said, it would make sense for humans to be unable to breed with other species, given the whole “not from Tyria” situation. Dwayna having a son with – supposedly – Malchor could be tied to the fact she’s the goddess of life. What life can be denied to to the goddess of life. For all we know, she could screw a Forgotten, charr, and centaur at once and give birth to a chimera.
6. I would not consider asura, giants, or ogres to have “predominant beast-like features”.
7. Sure, if you discount all other bipedal primates in Tyria like giants, ogres, norn. Also, we technically do not know what race Lord Odran was – for all we know, he could have been Flame Legion. Though human is most likely scenario given his predominance in human history.
8. The Six Gods actually – canonically – did not interfere with asura. We were told this in an old interview, when asked about how the asura reacted to magic being gifted (which was reponded with something along the lines of “they realized magic was raised for a brief time, but never knew who did such, how, or why”). The asura’s lack of predominance is due to their own lack of desire of surfacing.

Amaimon.7823:

A small comment on one point, I personally don’t believe it’s possible for malchor to be Grenth’s father, because grenth was already there when Malchor got personal with Dwayna

Not sure where you got that from. Was it DR’s statue of Grenth? If so, they changed the quote from Malchor to Desmina a long time ago (during Season 1).

This is an odd change because if Malchor did make that sculptor, why the need to change it? It would only need to be changed if it was contradicting canon lore. Which would mean that Malchor was not the one who made Grenth’s statue.

Amaimon.7823:

I mean, it was Dhuum and Balthazar’s father who were gods at tree time of coming to Tyria, right

Uhm, no. Not even close.

It’s Dwayna, Melandru, and Balthazar confirmed when coming to Tyria. Balthazar came to Tyria carrying his father’s head – we don’t know if said father was ever god or always mortal. Similarly, we do not know how long Dhuum was a god.

Though it is said that Grenth was the “first Tyrian-born god”, this is called into question as Lyssa’s origin is canonically unknown to humanity. The same could be said of Dhuum, as it seems that Abaddon’s own history – that he had supplanted a god – was hidden.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. Nothing says humans cannot interbreed with any native species, technically speaking. We only got confirmation about the five playable races not having interbreeding capabilities. That said, it would make sense for humans to be unable to breed with other species, given the whole “not from Tyria” situation. Dwayna having a son with – supposedly – Malchor could be tied to the fact she’s the goddess of life. What life can be denied to to the goddess of life. For all we know, she could screw a Forgotten, charr, and centaur at once and give birth to a chimera.

Heck, for all we know, she doesn’t need to engage in carnal relations at all. For all we know, Dwayna has already borne Jennah’s child as a insurance policy to preserve the royal line, while Jennah has long forgotten the priestess of Dwayna who thanked her (entirely verbally, no euphemism here) for the royal funding for a hospital.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Amaimon.7823:

A small comment on one point, I personally don’t believe it’s possible for malchor to be Grenth’s father, because grenth was already there when Malchor got personal with Dwayna

Not sure where you got that from. Was it DR’s statue of Grenth? If so, they changed the quote from Malchor to Desmina a long time ago (during Season 1).

This is an odd change because if Malchor did make that sculptor, why the need to change it? It would only need to be changed if it was contradicting canon lore. Which would mean that Malchor was not the one who made Grenth’s statue.

Afaik, the gods came to Malchor, with the request to carve their statues, which he did, and he saved Dwayna for last, so I never deemed it possible for him to carve the statue at the Silent Cathedral for a god that had yet to be conceived at that point. I have never heard anything of other sculptors, but obviously no statue outside Orr was carved by him, except the many bad statues of dwayna that drove him insane

Yes, “the gods”. Without ever naming them specifically. It could have been Dhuum and whom Malchor had sculpted, rather than Grenth, for all we know. After all, Kormir got a “Malchor styled statue” in multiple places now too (DR and Ascalonian Catacombs primarily).