Guild Wars 2

well.we got too many npc heroes who are over shadowing the players characters as main hero.
i feel i am more like tool of success rather than main reason of victory,we are actually combat tools who are opening the way for heroes to get things done and save the world.
exapmle 1:treahane
i feel we can be replaced with advanced golems or pretty strong soldiers. at least as strong as players and those heroes are still can get things done just fine without us.
look at personal story the real hero is treahane (the sylveri dude with power of cleansing the orr i also forgot his name it was something like that ))what you are actually doing is to kill mobs to open the way for him or defend him which is also can be done with advanced golems for most part of personal story with really few exceptions.
example 2 :destiny edge
we play role in unifying them that is true or is it?
they go into dungeon and then you as player just killing the mobs and bosses for them and at the end the joy of success make them think again about themselves not you by the way,it is like you were just tool there and they are in the center of the spot light which is actually true.
example 3:new LS heroes,rox,braham,taimi
again they will do intelligent stuff and they need somebody to do the dirty stuff,guess who it is.
example 4:marjory and kasmeer
those lesbian chicks need some people to do their biding and guess what they got, us.
I WANT TO BE in the center of spot light get rid of this so many side heroes,i want people to beg me for help and solution.yeah i want to be the one.

The reason npcs are in the spotlight is because they actually have personalities. the player character is a blank slate, which is good, so the player can identify with them more easily, but it also makes them a completely boring character (not much of a character at all).

The reason why the player’s character isn’t in the spotlight, is because the character is a huge mary/gary sue. They have only a generic personality, and s/he is almost perfect. It would be horrible if they were the lead character to the whole thing.

The game really isn’t at present setup that way.
Looking at the Personal Story it’s clear that although we’re in the thick of the action we’re not really involved in driving the action (well with some exception in early levels). It’s possible for ANet to put our characters at the center of everything, but to do so will require a change in how they’ve been structuring and conveying the story up until now.
I’d imagine that firstly they’d need to give our NPCs a voice, some meaningful dialog options and show consequences to our actions and our choices (something far easier to do in a single player RPG).

However revolving the story around us the players (with all our different races) is technically a lot more difficult then simply having us follow the biconics or iconics around and watching them interact with each other and the world while we just quickly look on.

CureForLiving.5360:

It’s possible for ANet to put our characters at the center of everything, but to do so will require a change in how they’ve been structuring and conveying the story up until now. I’d imagine that firstly they’d need to give our NPCs a voice, some meaningful dialog options and show consequences to our actions and our choices (something far easier to do in a single player RPG).

It is possible, but it is probable given the costs and schedule adjustments they’d have to incur? The game launched with five races each with two genders giving us ten unique voices. From previous statements on voice acting in the game we’ve learned that it’s hard enough for Arena Net to get the “aconics” (especially Felicia Day) scheduled to do voice acting in the amount of time they have between releases. Trying to get the ten voice actors for our characters may be difficult. They could switch this by having just two, one for male and one for female; but this might be jarring for some players who are used to the guttural voices of their Charr or the English accent of their Sylvari.
I know I wouldn’t appreciate hearing my Charr with a different voice. They could also go for unvoiced characters all together, or stop with two-week release schedule and just go with expansions (or longer development periods).

The NPCs in the game have a set history and that provides the hooks for the story events. This is because the players can purposely come into the living story with no history at no disadvantage. The stories can therefore look as if they are driven by the NPCs with the players just acting as hired muscle. Player actions determine when/if the players sees the events rather than determining what/how events take place in the wider game world.

CureForLiving.5360:

The game really isn’t at present setup that way.
Looking at the Personal Story it’s clear that although we’re in the thick of the action we’re not really involved in driving the action (well with some exception in early levels). It’s possible for ANet to put our characters at the center of everything, but to do so will require a change in how they’ve been structuring and conveying the story up until now.
I’d imagine that firstly they’d need to give our NPCs a voice, some meaningful dialog options and show consequences to our actions and our choices (something far easier to do in a single player RPG).

However revolving the story around us the players (with all our different races) is technically a lot more difficult then simply having us follow the biconics or iconics around and watching them interact with each other and the world while we just quickly look on.

I could understand that as a purpose for a B team in the story if the B team made sense in the story. Because the B team is made up of random characters in Tyria who are usually incidental to the plot, time and resources that could have gone to telling a better story are wasted telling the NPC’s stories (which don’t inform why these characters are the ones we are always seeing). Trahearne’s story is relevant when the player takes on Zhaitan because he leads the Pact. He’s the most knowledgeable person when it comes to Orr. Covering his doubts and fears makes sense because this guy is the foundation of our offence there.

Compare that to Braham. Why is Brahm at the Nightmare Tower? Why is Braham at the marionette (instead of a Priory NPC) why is Braham defending Lion’s Arch? Wouldn’t it have made more sense to have a Lion’s Arch NPC as the face of the invasion? Or a Vigil/Priory/Order NPC? Instead we had the B team giving Lion’s Arch cute nicknames when they’ve had relatively little to do with the place up until now. When fighting for Lion’s Arch I would have liked to do so side by side with the people of Lion’s Arch – Kiel, Evon, the Captain’s Council, the Lionguard etc. These characters feel less important in the world when the B team is taking their place.

The NPCs are pretty unobtrusive in the current events. You have to look around to find them, I missed Rox and Braham the first couple of times I went in and stumbled across Kas and Jory after the wyrm event. Lion’s Arch is most hordes of players running around rescuing people and killing enemies.

I haven’t seen Kiel yet (apparently she appears in one of the in Lion’s Arch events) but there are plenty of Lionsguard and other NPCs around the place. Evon has a voice acted scene at Vigil Keep for example and one of the Captain’s Council (I think he is anyway) is shouting out when the miasma increases and is involved in one of the Champion fights (he dies every time).

I don’t mind not being in the spotlight.

The way that I see it, my characters are all the “go to girls” which the heroes consult when they want results, and not stories. It feels refreshing for a change to not be the main hero, but a support, secondary hero. If you think about it, it also fits in with the Living Story idea. Compared to real life, only about 5% of people actually influence and steer events directly. The rest are all support characters.

Argh, I need coffee.

I’m actually really glad I’m not the focus. In fact, I’d rather I barely knew the main characters and were just treated like a mercenary – because, quite frankly, that’s what we all are.

We may be extraordinary when compared to most of Tyria, but we’re really just seasoned, highly skilled adventurers, and there are still a lot of us.

inb4 go play that fantasy sandbox RPG that doesn’t exist yet

Shiren.9532:

Wouldn’t it have made more sense to have a Lion’s Arch NPC as the face of the invasion? Or a Vigil/Priory/Order NPC? Instead we had the B team giving Lion’s Arch cute nicknames when they’ve had relatively little to do with the place up until now. When fighting for Lion’s Arch I would have liked to do so side by side with the people of Lion’s Arch – Kiel, Evon, the Captain’s Council, the Lionguard etc. These characters feel less important in the world when the B team is taking their place.

Yeah, true. Although I’m guessing ANet is reusing the biconics in order to build player involvement and interest. With each event we see the biconics, we learn a little more about them, slowly the dialogue seem to be changing from “hey there… you”, to “hey it’s you again!”, which is nice (although not be able to truly interact does diminish some of my involvement and interest in the characters. Think mass effect minus all that talking, as interesting as the characters might be, giving us players the ability to interact helps build that interest). So if they did create a new, more relevant set of characters for each event we’d constantly be seeing new faces, people we don’t know and by extension have no interest in.
As for Braham, he can be explained a bit easier than the other biconics. Being a Norn he’s still trying to make his own legend, just actively looking for these sorts of events to make a name for himself. Rox is more difficult since, being a part of the Legions, unless she was ordered to she’s got very little reason to be there. In fact something as simple as her mentioning that Rytlock sent some Charr soldiers to aid in the evacuation would have given some context, but nope she just showed up.

Chaosky.5276:

I’m actually really glad I’m not the focus. In fact, I’d rather I barely knew the main characters and were just treated like a mercenary – because, quite frankly, that’s what we all are.

Actually in the middle of the LA event I got to thinking, “we’re not so much a bunch of mercenaries as much as a literally army”. But yeah I get what you’re saying. It’s a matter of story telling and game mechanics, and a lot of other stuff. Some people like being actively involved, other’s don’t mind watching.

guys thanks for replies to my post but let me put it in this way:
scarlet and her army against heroes of triya who are of course the npcs I have mentioned and their army which is us. yes we are their army and for most of the LS and personal story you can be replaced by advanced golems because you basically did nothing other than killing the mobs.
take LA event for example: you kill mobs to open way for citizens to escape. well send in strong golems they also wont have problem with toxic air and can keep on fighting even in toxic air.
you are just watching the story to unfold you are not involve in driving it in any ways as matter of fact. some people can relate to such story some people don’t but reality is when the story that involves you much more, you have way more people interested in the game and lore.

CureForLiving.5360:

Rox is more difficult since, being a part of the Legions, unless she was ordered to she’s got very little reason to be there. In fact something as simple as her mentioning that Rytlock sent some Charr soldiers to aid in the evacuation would have given some context, but nope she just showed up.

Rytlock did ask Rox to kill Scarlet in an instance following the Marionette battle. Rox’s connection to the other LS iconics and player character would point her toward Lion’s Arch. The sooner she fulfills Rytlock’s request, the sooner she gets admitted into his warband. So if anything, Rox has more motivation to show up than her counterparts.

Seagloom.1263:

CureForLiving.5360:

Rox is more difficult since, being a part of the Legions, unless she was ordered to she’s got very little reason to be there. In fact something as simple as her mentioning that Rytlock sent some Charr soldiers to aid in the evacuation would have given some context, but nope she just showed up.

Rytlock did ask Rox to kill Scarlet in an instance following the Marionette battle. Rox’s connection to the other LS iconics and player character would point her toward Lion’s Arch. The sooner she fulfills Rytlock’s request, the sooner she gets admitted into his warband. So if anything, Rox has more motivation to show up than her counterparts.

Not to mention her and bro-ham are both members of the Vigil and the slogan, “some must fight, so that all may be free.” Kinda goes along well with rescuing villagers from a city burning to the ground due to a maniac…

Durzlla.6295:

Not to mention her and bro-ham are both members of the Vigil and the slogan, “some must fight, so that all may be free.” Kinda goes along well with rescuing villagers from a city burning to the ground due to a maniac…

Um… no, they’re not….

Are you misremembering the Molten Facilities? Because yes, they work alongside the Vigil there, but the Vigil NPC in charge straightup says “Oh, and a young male norn and female charr, but they aren’t affiliated with my team.” Also, “There’s also a young male norn and female charr, but they’re not with us.”

Seagloom.1263:

Rytlock did ask Rox to kill Scarlet in an instance following the Marionette battle. Rox’s connection to the other LS iconics and player character would point her toward Lion’s Arch. The sooner she fulfills Rytlock’s request, the sooner she gets admitted into his warband. So if anything, Rox has more motivation to show up than her counterparts.

I must say in that case Rytlock isn’t taking Scarlet too seriously, or significantly over estimating Rox.

CureForLiving.5360:

Seagloom.1263:

Rytlock did ask Rox to kill Scarlet in an instance following the Marionette battle. Rox’s connection to the other LS iconics and player character would point her toward Lion’s Arch. The sooner she fulfills Rytlock’s request, the sooner she gets admitted into his warband. So if anything, Rox has more motivation to show up than her counterparts.

I must say in that case Rytlock isn’t taking Scarlet too seriously, or significantly over estimating Rox.

Well, seeing as he sent her out to kill Tequatl, and she came back with his tail, it isn’t entirely unjustified.

The fundamental reason is because, like most MMOs, GW2 doesn’t really want to acknowledge it is an MMO from a story perspective. It just takes you aside and spoonfeeds you a pre-scripted storyline every so often, one that is totally static and divorced from everything else happening in the game world. This affords the writers a lot of control over the story, but in the end it cheapens the experience because the story becomes a single-player quest line awkwardly grafted onto a multiplayer game.

I guess it is sort of to its benefit that it doesn’t try to pretend that the player is the CHOSEN ONE or really anyone that special. You’re just a supporting character for the “real” heroes. But that really just highlights the need for a better way of working a narrative into games like this, one that can actually adapt and respond to the players and allow their actions to shape the world they’re investing themselves in.

Get over yourself. Plain and simple. Like GW1, in GW2 the player character is NOT the center of attention, our names don’t go down in the history books. The reasons for this are so obvious I’m not even sure why I feel compelled to explain them to you.

Example 1: Trahearne. He is commonly hated for various reasons, and yes, his “Taking the spotlight” tends to be one of them. Years from now when they speak about the cleansing of Oor and the fall of Zhaitan, you obviously won’t see the list of millions of player’s characters in a history book. Instead it will be “Trahearne and a commander who’s name has been lost over time” or something. Those heroes can NOT get things done just fine without us story-wise, but the game still can’t give you all the credit.

Example 2: Destiny’s Edge. YES We DO play a role in helping them get back together, and you’re sorely mistaken if you think that at the end of every dungeon they think of themselves not the player, and treat the player like a tool. We may not have the huge spotlight that we do at the very beginning of our personal story, where everything is small-scale. But we DO matter to Destiny’s Edge (Henceforth known as DE). Hate to break it to you but in the story modes we’re helping along DE’S story, not our own. The entirety of DE view the player character as friends, and will recognize you for helping them out, should you take the time to speak to them. (And I mean SPEAK to them and not watch the cinematics).

Example 3+4 Lumped together: First off reffering to Marjory and Kasmeer as “Lesbian chicks” is offensive. Secondly, again, GET. OVER. YOURSELF. When it comes to history, you are not the main character, you simply absolutely cannot be, MUST I explain why to you?

YOU. The player. Are the side hero. You’re good guy Greg who comes in and fixes EVERYTHING and walks off without taking the credit. The history books will not remember you, just like how they didn’t in GW1, simply because it’s not possible. Why is this not possible? For instance, my necromancer’s name is “Sepzane”. Years from now when gw2 is dead and we’re in GW3 I’ll probably come across a book that says “Zhaitan was finally slain thanks to the combined heroics of Trahearne and Sepzane.” That doesn’t sound right now, does it? Because every single player, most with several other characters have slain Zhaitan with Trahearne, from a lore perspective they simple and positively cannot put you in the middle of the kitten spotlight.

Can they do a better job with having the LS crew and DE notice you better? Maybe, but they already do. Just TALK to them. But they can’t give you the spotlight, YOU can’t be the main character of a major plot line in an mmo. (Key word: MMO, millions of different player characters doing the same work you do, and you want to be the star.) As far as their lore is concerned, our characters are the unnamed heroes who were instrumental in doing a good chunk of good.

Shiren.9532:

Compare that to Braham. Why is Brahm at the Nightmare Tower? Why is Braham at the marionette (instead of a Priory NPC) why is Braham defending Lion’s Arch? Wouldn’t it have made more sense to have a Lion’s Arch NPC as the face of the invasion? Or a Vigil/Priory/Order NPC?

So instead of reoccurring characters, two of which basically are as much adventurers as the players (And Braham explicitly points toward continuing working that career), two of which have an informant (they don’t know who exactly) who is dropping them information about certain upcoming things, and them wanting to stop Scarlet after the tower of nightmares, and one (Taimi) who was there simply to meet and talk to scarlet, but now wants to just observe her as it’s gone really dangerous.

Instead of these characters, you’d rather each Living Story element just shove brand new characters who disappear? We’d meet a Lionguard captain who afterwards… stays in LA? Kinda true with Kiel, but she’s appeared in relevant areas alongside the Norn Lionguard from Southsun at times. The “B-team” are the travelers, but there are other characters who appear off and on when fitting, like Vorpp.

Iretha.7625:

Get over yourself. Plain and simple. Like GW1, in GW2 the player character is NOT the center of attention, our names don’t go down in the history books. The reasons for this are so obvious I’m not even sure why I feel compelled to explain them to you.

Example 1: Trahearne. He is commonly hated for various reasons, and yes, his “Taking the spotlight” tends to be one of them. Years from now when they speak about the cleansing of Oor and the fall of Zhaitan, you obviously won’t see the list of millions of player’s characters in a history book. Instead it will be “Trahearne and a commander who’s name has been lost over time” or something. Those heroes can NOT get things done just fine without us story-wise, but the game still can’t give you all the credit.

YOU. The player. Are the side hero. You’re good guy Greg who comes in and fixes EVERYTHING and walks off without taking the credit. The history books will not remember you, just like how they didn’t in GW1, simply because it’s not possible. Why is this not possible? For instance, my necromancer’s name is “Sepzane”. Years from now when gw2 is dead and we’re in GW3 I’ll probably come across a book that says “Zhaitan was finally slain thanks to the combined heroics of Trahearne and Sepzane.” That doesn’t sound right now, does it? Because every single player, most with several other characters have slain Zhaitan with Trahearne, from a lore perspective they simple and positively cannot put you in the middle of the kitten spotlight.

Can they do a better job with having the LS crew and DE notice you better? Maybe, but they already do. Just TALK to them. But they can’t give you the spotlight, YOU can’t be the main character of a major plot line in an mmo. (Key word: MMO, millions of different player characters doing the same work you do, and you want to be the star.) As far as their lore is concerned, our characters are the unnamed heroes who were instrumental in doing a good chunk of good.

I’ll simply point out Trahearne doesn’t take credit, but you do state several things that I personally believe and was thinking about posting. I cut out DE and “B-team” because I don’t really feel like talking about them.

Another one you didn’t mention but is completely relevant, Kormir. People kitten about her becoming a god, but like your last paragraph states, how could we go from GW1 to GW2 with the sixth god being either vague (no face, name, personality, to encompass all players), or suddenly having an NPC nobody knew thrust in to take the spot? I think both would kitten players off more then Kormir ever does.

In GW1, the players basically were part of 2 “b-teams” in a sense. Devona and the Ascalon’s Chosen guild went through nearly ALL gw1 events, but not as many people talk about them or the other henchmen. The hero from EOTN is described vaguely, but with clear indicators that the person was both powerful and did a kittenton of work.

HOWEVER, even with the player being in the “side hero” or the “Person who does a ton of work, but as time goes on slowly their NAME is forgotten, but not their deeds!”, Anet is including a lot of things directly crediting the players with actions. Talk to the two priory members near the Marionette wreckage. BOTH of them directly say you were part of the effort to bring the thing down (at least for me, and that was with a character who NEVER did the Marionette battle, my Necro did it all, and I talked to them on my guardian). Vorpp, Kasmeer, Marjory, all talk about how if YOU hadn’t helped them figure out LA was the target they’d have been unable to make the response they did, or as quickly.

NinjaChris.9340:

The reason npcs are in the spotlight is because they actually have personalities. the player character is a blank slate, which is good, so the player can identify with them more easily, but it also makes them a completely boring character (not much of a character at all).

Actually, we arent even a true character, or at best a viewpoint character, the main thing is that unlike what is defined in literature as a blank slate, the focal character (aka the spotlight) is on the NPCs (something which was very bad in the “personal” story).

e.g. Bella from twilight – blank slate and a BAD character (thats kinda insulting the word but stick with me);
PC in both wow and GW and GW2 – narrator /viewpoint “character”;
Watson from Sherlock Holmes – narrator character/viewpoint character;

Watson is both a the viewpoint for the reader and a story active character, Bella is a viewpoint (not by writing style but by plot/fangs) and a story acted upon … thing, the PC on the other hand is just the viewpoint interacting with the story active characters, since both all and no PC is actually the cannon Hero of x/Champion of Tyria.

Kalavier.1097:

Another one you didn’t mention but is completely relevant, Kormir. People kitten about her becoming a god, but like your last paragraph states, how could we go from GW1 to GW2 with the sixth god being either vague (no face, name, personality, to encompass all players), or suddenly having an NPC nobody knew thrust in to take the spot? I think both would kitten players off more then Kormir ever does.

In GW1, the players basically were part of 2 “b-teams” in a sense. Devona and the Ascalon’s Chosen guild went through nearly ALL gw1 events, but not as many people talk about them or the other henchmen. The hero from EOTN is described vaguely, but with clear indicators that the person was both powerful and did a kittenton of work.

HOWEVER, even with the player being in the “side hero” or the “Person who does a ton of work, but as time goes on slowly their NAME is forgotten, but not their deeds!”, Anet is including a lot of things directly crediting the players with actions. Talk to the two priory members near the Marionette wreckage. BOTH of them directly say you were part of the effort to bring the thing down (at least for me, and that was with a character who NEVER did the Marionette battle, my Necro did it all, and I talked to them on my guardian). Vorpp, Kasmeer, Marjory, all talk about how if YOU hadn’t helped them figure out LA was the target they’d have been unable to make the response they did, or as quickly.

Exactly, the player IS recognized by the DE team, the LS team, ect. We just aren’t given a major spotlight because of lore reasons. Many people just don’t TALK to them, though, and only watch the cinematics leading people to make posts like the OP’s, wondering why the player character is seen as a “tool”, “doesn’t make a real difference” and “isn’t the main character”. (Paraphrasing, of course.) We even get letters from the LS characters, either thanking us or calling us for help, referring to us as friends sometimes and treating the player character as a close companion that they think of to call upon first for help.

Iretha.7625:

We even get letters from the LS characters, either thanking us or calling us for help, referring to us as friends sometimes and treating the player character as a close companion that they think of to call upon first for help.

True, but we’re missing any decent interaction with the biconics. So although Rox and Braham think I’m the greatest, I as a player never experienced the development of any friendship. Sure we can talk to the biconics but at most we exchange a few rather bland words, mostly just enough to remind us of what’s going on. Although it’s been stated several times that ANet has some issues making it difficult to record / play player character voices, which thus contributes to limited interaction. Still it’s something that I think is missing, you know we help Braham and we get a little voiced cut-scene, or better yet some voiced dialogue options. We as players get to experience this relationship developing and changing. Better yet if we could choose if we wanted to be friendly with Braham or not.

CureForLiving.5360:

True, but we’re missing any decent interaction with the biconics. So although Rox and Braham think I’m the greatest, I as a player never experienced the development of any friendship. Sure we can talk to the biconics but at most we exchange a few rather bland words, mostly just enough to remind us of what’s going on. Although it’s been stated several times that ANet has some issues making it difficult to record / play player character voices, which thus contributes to limited interaction. Still it’s something that I think is missing, you know we help Braham and we get a little voiced cut-scene, or better yet some voiced dialogue options. We as players get to experience this relationship developing and changing. Better yet if we could choose if we wanted to be friendly with Braham or not.

You didn’t? Throughout Flame and Frost I slowly got to know Rox and Braham better, from first meeting Rox to seeing her get her devourer, watching Braham’s fall out with Ottilia. It wasn’t until after the molten facility events did they (Rox, Braham, and the players) recognize themselves as a team. To be honest I never really felt a connection to Rox until she told the player character about her old warband and how they died.

They could certainly do a BETTER job of showing the player character their relationship with the LS crew; But we did have a relationship that came up over time with them. The problem is there doesn’t seem to be much room for new players or new characters that are meeting the LS crew now to form that same relationship.

While I do enjoy not being the main character, Trahearne is annoying because he sends you off to do stuff and takes credit for it.

lilexodaria.8076:

While I do enjoy not being the main character, Trahearne is annoying because he sends you off to do stuff and takes credit for it.

Only, he literally NEVER does.

Kalavier.1097:

lilexodaria.8076:

While I do enjoy not being the main character, Trahearne is annoying because he sends you off to do stuff and takes credit for it.

Only, he literally NEVER does.

Yes he literally never does anything, even in the cutscene where he should have spawned the flesh golems to save you, on three out of four of my 80s that got trough the story, he was dead and glitched trough it. Sylvari personal story part doesnt count.

Andele.1306:

Kalavier.1097:

lilexodaria.8076:

While I do enjoy not being the main character, Trahearne is annoying because he sends you off to do stuff and takes credit for it.

Only, he literally NEVER does.

Yes he literally never does anything, even in the cutscene where he should have spawned the flesh golems to save you, on three out of four of my 80s that got trough the story, he was dead and glitched trough it. Sylvari personal story part doesnt count.

That’s game mechanics. I’m talking the “He sends you off to do stuff and takes credit for it.”

Which he never does. He always talks about how important the player character is to the successes. He never goes “Oh, it was all me. I did all of that.”

Kalavier.1097:

Andele.1306:

Kalavier.1097:

lilexodaria.8076:

While I do enjoy not being the main character, Trahearne is annoying because he sends you off to do stuff and takes credit for it.

Only, he literally NEVER does.

Yes he literally never does anything, even in the cutscene where he should have spawned the flesh golems to save you, on three out of four of my 80s that got trough the story, he was dead and glitched trough it. Sylvari personal story part doesnt count.

That’s game mechanics. I’m talking the “He sends you off to do stuff and takes credit for it.”

Which he never does. He always talks about how important the player character is to the successes. He never goes “Oh, it was all me. I did all of that.”

Rule for every game ever: Mechanics and showing of story> implying and typing a story

Andele.1306:

Kalavier.1097:

Andele.1306:

Kalavier.1097:

lilexodaria.8076:

While I do enjoy not being the main character, Trahearne is annoying because he sends you off to do stuff and takes credit for it.

Only, he literally NEVER does.

Yes he literally never does anything, even in the cutscene where he should have spawned the flesh golems to save you, on three out of four of my 80s that got trough the story, he was dead and glitched trough it. Sylvari personal story part doesnt count.

That’s game mechanics. I’m talking the “He sends you off to do stuff and takes credit for it.”

Which he never does. He always talks about how important the player character is to the successes. He never goes “Oh, it was all me. I did all of that.”

Rule for every game ever: Mechanics and showing of story> implying and typing a story

Rule for every canon/lore ever, game mechanics sometimes are forced to do things, such things aren’t in lore.

IE, in Starcraft you can’t just turn some minerals into marines randomly in the lore, yet in game you can.

And also, yeah, Trahearne NEVER takes credit for any of the player actions in Personal Story. I’ve yet to see any prove of it otherwise.

Iretha.7625:

You didn’t? Throughout Flame and Frost I slowly got to know Rox and Braham better, from first meeting Rox to seeing her get her devourer, watching Braham’s fall out with Ottilia. It wasn’t until after the molten facility events did they (Rox, Braham, and the players) recognize themselves as a team.

I saw the characters but I was only a casual observer, I never really interacted with them. I feel like their growth and development happens without my involvement. Thus having them recognize me and act friendly towards me seems odd since I was adventurer 5 from the left and at most exchange a couple of very to the point lines of dialogue. It’s the sort of experience I get watching TV. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, just that it’s not very RPG (specially the RP part).

Iretha.7625:

To be honest I never really felt a connection to Rox until she told the player character about her old warband and how they died.

Pretty much this is what I would like to see more of. Not two characters talking to each other and me watching, but rather the character talking to me, me interacting with that character.
It doesn’t have to be terribly meaningful interactions. Let’s take Mass Effect as an example (it’s relatively recent and has a focus on NPC relations). A lot of the conversation with side-kicks both good and bad don’t really change much except your paragon / generate score (and perhaps a ‘trust’ to unlock side missions, but these are simply numbers in the back-end). But it’s in the presentation that we feel like we’re interacting, even simply being able to choose dialog (even if the outcome is inevitably the same) creates a feeling like we the players are interacting and building a relationship.

@Iretha.7625
i said that we must be involved much more in driving the story, interacting with npcs more and feel like you are also part of the team and not like you are their soldier who do the killing. did i say i want to see my character name everywhere or i said the story should change in way that you feel thing happened because you were around, like decision making should have more effect and not choosing different killing path at the end same result. it can be done in mmo and some games did it well.check mmorp.com on games which are still selling despite being old and crappy just because of story.

you totally missed the point of my post,your so called answers to my examples are just defending the anet with no proper reasoning (some body sound like a fanboy).
the point is (for your consideration): the story that sidelines the players is total crap and forgettable.
do not tell me it can not be changed because its mmo, ill give you an example: swtor did many thing wrong but one thing right and it is their story, talk to people who played swtor and many of them will tell you they enjoyed the story they might even buy expansion just for the sake of story(me included).
conclusion: the story is very very important and do not underestimate it and say it does not matter.the game has story that is enough no matter what is the story ,you are just happy you got one.
ps: about history and all you mentioned , there wont be history without us, there wont be game without us, there wont be anet without us, so yeah anet better come up with better story if they want to survive the storm of new mmos.

What I’ve heard most about TOR boils down moreso into a “It’s a good single player game. MMO? eh.”

And even then I’ve heard chunks of the story aren’t the greatest.

Kalavier.1097:

Shiren.9532:

Compare that to Braham. Why is Brahm at the Nightmare Tower? Why is Braham at the marionette (instead of a Priory NPC) why is Braham defending Lion’s Arch? Wouldn’t it have made more sense to have a Lion’s Arch NPC as the face of the invasion? Or a Vigil/Priory/Order NPC?

So instead of reoccurring characters, two of which basically are as much adventurers as the players (And Braham explicitly points toward continuing working that career), two of which have an informant (they don’t know who exactly) who is dropping them information about certain upcoming things, and them wanting to stop Scarlet after the tower of nightmares, and one (Taimi) who was there simply to meet and talk to scarlet, but now wants to just observe her as it’s gone really dangerous.

Instead of these characters, you’d rather each Living Story element just shove brand new characters who disappear? We’d meet a Lionguard captain who afterwards… stays in LA? Kinda true with Kiel, but she’s appeared in relevant areas alongside the Norn Lionguard from Southsun at times. The “B-team” are the travelers, but there are other characters who appear off and on when fitting, like Vorpp.

This is the thing the Living Story has trained us to forget: this is an MMO. People don’t just go off an disappear. Tyria is huge and it’s supposed to be a Living World. A world as big as Tyria shouldn’t have a story with such a small scope it leaves out hundreds of characters and all of the most appropriate factions just so it can tell the story of a handful of characters with no strong justification for why they are given all the prominence. When you do that, you cheapen the world. You make Tyria feel smaller. You make the Captain’s Council look (unbelievably) incompetent and dysfunctional. You make Lion’s Arch look like it has very few of it’s own NPC heroes (when there are actually several notable Lionguard). You make the three Orders look less credible as organisations capable of protecting Tyria (or themselves – all three have an outpost in Lion’s Arch).

The Personal Story is filled with NPCs and I agree it was a little troublesome to see new ones (or forget old ones) every 10 levels but the trade off is that the story shows us Tyria is a believable world. You can explore the issues with Divinity’s Reach bandits or you can play a norn who becomes an honorary Iron Legion member. There are several recurring characters but they all make sense to be recurring (Destiny’s Edge, Trahearne, the three Order commanders in the Pact etc). The rest of the characters, the ones you see for 10 levels then either don’t or only see them again in Orr 50 levels later, those characters sell Tyria as a Living World, a believable one. This is an MMO, not a sitcom or anime, Tyria is bigger than just the events happening now and the existence of a maint cast doesn’t dismiss the existence of a world full of NPCs who have roles and purposes.

We don’t need brand new characters – the story needs to utilise the ones already established in Tyria (or if its going to introduce new ones to avoid crossing over with the Personal Story, it should introduce ones who are believably positioned to carry the story being told – Kiel, Canach, the Consortium and the Captain’s Council were added to the game in Southsun).

Instead of these characters, you’d rather each Living Story element just shove brand new characters who disappear?

The Living Story has caused the rest of Tyria to disappear by awkwardly trying to tell world altering events in a vacuum. To use your example, a Lionguard Captain who stays in Lion’s Arch wouldn’t just disappear. They would be involved in any plots to do with their authority or presence in Lion’s Arch (such as its defence and evacuation). As you pointed out, we have Kiel who plays the most minor role in the Lion’s Arch defence event, but even worse is Thurma. According to Evon she’s one of the best Lionguard (she proved herself capable in TA if nothing else) yet she’s stuck in a camp in the Bloodtide Coast. I would rather her holding the line in Lion’s Arch than Marjory, Kasmeer, Braham or Rox. What are we supposed to think about the Lionguard and the NPC heroes of Lion’s Arch when the new characters are more prominent than most of them in its defence? Or of the Orders?

@Shiren.9532 good point. Although having some reoccurring characters still has merits (if only to provide the player some semblance of familiarity), but on the other hand like you stated the lack of LA heroes being involved in LA itself does make it feel somewhat lacking. I guess this could have been addressed by giving some of the more notable LA members more dialogue and their own little events. Braham and Rox I think is more or less understandable being their (in my opinion Braham – the legend seeker- a bit more so then Rox), but their prominence (mostly as a result of the lack of notable LA citizens actively taking part in the defence) is perhaps mispaced.
Well I guess it’s difficult to balance, reoccurring characters have more history, more character and most of the story tellers might decide to attempt and tell the story via these characters (probably because the story tellers are familiar with them), however one still has to make the world seem big, but throwing too many vague known characters at the player might have the result of overwhelming or confusing them.

Now that the atlas has been released (http://atlas.guildwars2.com/en/#/map/coord/15931.238,15571.621) it could potentially help flesh out these events a bit more. Sure you’d ideally want to see most of this information in-game, but practically it won’t always be possible. Using the atlas one could add short stories, small paragraphs etc. that would help to make the world seem a bit larger.

saye.9304:

@Iretha.7625
snip

There are many “crappy” mmos that still sell WITHOUT a good story, it’s called nostalgia. I might have missed the point of your original post, but…

saye.9304:

well.we got too many npc heroes who are over shadowing the players characters as main hero.
I WANT TO BE in the center of spot light get rid of this so many side heroes,i want people to beg me for help and solution.yeah i want to be the one.

sounds a LOT like “I need all the glory for my character and I want to be the special one.” My point was that in gw2, much like gw1. You. Are not. The main character. There are no side heroes, and when stuff gets done it’s a team effort, and if the npcs who have dialogue just happen to recognize the LS crew before they see you, it doesn’t mean you’re any less important.

I already stated they COULD do a better job of having the LS team recognize you better for your actions. I’m not saying they can’t IMPROVE, I’m saying that you can’t expect to be in the spotlight forever for the living story. I feel like I’m part of their team, having one-on-one convos with them at every chance you get goes a long way. One of their biggest problems with the LS setup as it is now is that newer players don’t feel any real connection to the LS team. I could literally write paragraphs about how I got to see each of the LS character’s grow, and after every. single. LS instance. and update. We got a personal letter from our friends thanking us, or asking us for help, because we’re the first person they think to ask.

We’re the ones who figured out Scarlet was going to attack Lion’s Arch, by the way. Also the ones who pretty much saves Marjory and Kasmeer’s butt when the giant-toxic-weed got revealed, figured out Mai was working for the aetherblades, we solved the puzzles in scarlet’s hidden room in the nightmare tower that inevitably made the whole thing crumble. The list goes on and the LS characters recognize us for it. Again, COULD they do a better job at showing this? Sure, but to say that the LS team sees us as only “replaceable soldiers”. They already DO cry to you for help, and ask you for the solution. That’s why it doesn’t make sense for you to say that they don’t.

However, I’d like the point out that as-is right now, the LS team is generally unknown to the world as well. Heck, Logan didn’t even really recognize Braham when he last saw him during “A Moments Peace”. The only ones who seem to pull any weight when it comes to being somewhat renowned are Marjory and Kasmeer. (Kasmeer for being a noble; Marjory for being a friend of Logan and for once being in the Ministry Guard.) Everyone else? Seem pretty… much unknown to the rest of the world. Rox is licking Rytlock’s boots praying for the day he finally lets her into his warband after he’s strung her along for about a year, though.

I have many friends who have played SWOTR, and hated it, one of their main reasons? The story.

I’m going to ignore the “Fanboy” comment as I criticize the living kitten out of anet for several issues with their living story. (Like how “It was Scarlet” for forced onto everything; How underdeveloped Braham feels as a character compared to the others; Why we’re only now learning about whatever’s in Scarlet’s head, no hints, no nothing, they just poof put that in there, it felt forced. Like a cop-out. ect.)

Iretha.7625:

sounds a LOT like “I need all the glory for my character and I want to be the special one.” My point was that in gw2, much like gw1. You. Are not. The main character. There are no side heroes, and when stuff gets done it’s a team effort, and if the npcs who have dialogue just happen to recognize the LS crew before they see you, it doesn’t mean you’re any less important.

I will agree with you about the player in GW2 being a minor character, but that cannot be said about GW1. The PC in GW1 was a VERY important character in all of the campaigns and eotn. Not the only one, but still one of the major players. The only reason that the character isnt known in gw2 universe as a household name is because of the ambiguity of the character. How do you portray the heroism of a character whose name, gender, nationality, skillset, and even accomplisments are ambiguous? GW2 does so in a good way. The GW1 PC travelled a lot, so records of his/her various accomplishments would be scattered all over the world. There is in game a few npcs who talk about the hero of gw1 in a vague sense, and then of course the Hall of Monuments still exists in game (HoM being a gigantic tribute to the importance of the gw1 PC). It is however in ruins. The GW2 answer to portrayal of this character was simply that his/her actions helped define Tyria but the identity of this hero was simply lost to history. Which is quite probable considering it would be largely human history, and humans have taken major blows in the time between the two games so records of the character are quite probably lost. Most likely, any historical records would have been split between Istani scriptures (most likely in ruins due to Palawa Joko) Shing Jea Monastery (fate unknown) Old Lion’s Arch (destroyed from Zhaitan’s rise) and the Eye of the North (in ruins from neglect, likely due to the recall of the Ebon Vanguard to Ebonhawke).

So what little is still known about that hero is that he/she was of great importance and fought for Tyria in the 8 year span of history represented in GW1.

I still like to think that the Krytan bits of Guild Wars 1 are preserved in those secret files of the Shining Blade, and that those with access- Anise, and maybe Jennah- remember our contributions. But, of course, that’s not something they’d just randomly start a discussion about with a modern day hero, and I’m ok with that.

The part that kind of irks me is that our EotN companions- Jora, Pyre, Gwen, even Vekk- are remembered and even sort of revered by their respective cultures, but the player character only existed in common knowledge as an obscure figure for scholars to debate about. It would have been nice to see, say, some small monument in the Ascalonian Settlement that pulls a name from GW1 if accounts have been linked.

Brannidus.4175:

I will agree with you about the player in GW2 being a minor character, but that cannot be said about GW1. The PC in GW1 was a VERY important character in all of the campaigns and eotn. Not the only one, but still one of the major players. The only reason that the character isnt known in gw2 universe as a household name is because of the ambiguity of the character. How do you portray the heroism of a character whose name, gender, nationality, skillset, and even accomplisments are ambiguous? GW2 does so in a good way. The GW1 PC travelled a lot, so records of his/her various accomplishments would be scattered all over the world. There is in game a few npcs who talk about the hero of gw1 in a vague sense, and then of course the Hall of Monuments still exists in game (HoM being a gigantic tribute to the importance of the gw1 PC). It is however in ruins. The GW2 answer to portrayal of this character was simply that his/her actions helped define Tyria but the identity of this hero was simply lost to history. Which is quite probable considering it would be largely human history, and humans have taken major blows in the time between the two games so records of the character are quite probably lost. Most likely, any historical records would have been split between Istani scriptures (most likely in ruins due to Palawa Joko) Shing Jea Monastery (fate unknown) Old Lion’s Arch (destroyed from Zhaitan’s rise) and the Eye of the North (in ruins from neglect, likely due to the recall of the Ebon Vanguard to Ebonhawke).

So what little is still known about that hero is that he/she was of great importance and fought for Tyria in the 8 year span of history represented in GW1.

You’re right, now that I think of it the GW1 character was much more renown than the one in GW2. Unfortunately I think the reason for that is mainly because GW1 was heavily instanced, hub-based, and had a non-persistant world. And, like you said, GW1 followed the story of primarily humans, whereas here in GW2 we have a deck of five races that need equal attention. It’s just plain harder to give a GW2 character more focus than they’re already given. Not simply because “GW2’S an MMO” but because it’s an mmo with a persistant world that tries to instance as little as possible.

The living story team (Marjory, Kasmeer, Rox, Braham, and eventually, Taimi) all recognize the player and consider them a member of their team, and call to the player for help, praise them when they figure things out, ect. Another thing I suppose Anet can do to make people feel “specialer” is put in more npc dialogue, perhaps?

Example: [If the player has completed the “Extraction Complete” meta-achievement] Walking through the new Lion’s Arch, or wherever people re-locate too, the player walks past a random citizen npc. In a chat bubble (appearing over their head; showing to no other players to prevent spam; no voice-acting needed) a citizen can say “It’s you! I can’t believe it! You helped me when Lion’s Arch was attacked.. I can’t thank you enough!” It would be nice to have, assuming they even have the means to do it.

I for one am thrilled with NOT being some big, celebrated super-hero who single handedly resolves every problem. That sort of thing just isn’t realistic to me at all. That’s a big thing I can point out as something I dislike about, say, The Elder Scrolls series. You play through that game and become the head honcho and savior of just about every situation you come across. Walk into the Mage’s Guild as a novice, a few quests later and you’re grandmaster and head of the order, to heck with all the NPCs who have been there for decades and actually know what they’re doing. A day later you walk into the Thief’s Guild and do the same thing. Then for a finale you become a literal god. To me, that sort of thing is just utterly ridiculous and destroys immersion and any sort of “realism” the game has.

My dislike for being the one savior of the universe is applies especially in an MMO where every player would have to be that same big super ultra hero character. Walk down the street and see hundreds of people who are THE hero, single-handed ender of all struggles and trials the world has faced? Nah, no thanks. I’d rather walk down the street and see hundreds of people who help solve problems as a part of a larger solution. See hundreds who helped defeat Scarlet by fighting a few troops on the frontlines or gathered a few samples.

If you guys were discussing how the credit should be split regardless of the race, I suggest you take a note from the Eye of the North. That game does a good job in give a spotlight to you, the npc heroes, and everyone that helps. You are not the big shot in that expansion but you certain will get known for it. Its what GW 2’s Personal Story should have done rather than having everyone praise Trahearne as their lord and savior.