Guild Wars 2

hi guys. earlier i did a story quest in straits of devastation called the temple of the forgotten god. there was a winged human-like creature fighting beside me-fulfilling an oath to trahearne. what race is it anyway?

She’s a largos (wiki link here). You can find more of them around the PvE world, here are there, but they’re not common – they live in the deep oceans and usually only come on land when hired as assassins.

If you pick a certain fear you get to know Sayeh earlier than in “Temple of the forgotten god”. It’s one of those cases where NPCs from other parts of the storyline get introduced all of a sudden to players who did not meet them before.

Yip they are Largos. And to be honest they are reasonable common before meeting Sayeh, You can find atleast 5 of them in lower level area’s in events. And I think the dialogue with Traeharne explains pretty well who and what she is. if not she explains it yourself during the mission if you simply ask her. So i totally disagree with all of a sudden. Somepeople do skip all cinematics but thats no reason to complain then

Eh, I watch all the cutscenes and I still complain about the suddenness of the largos. Explained or not, they still feel tacked on and not a part of the world. Where everything else in the world was crafted with such care, the largos are lazy. Why in the name of Dwayna would a deep sea creature which almost never rises to the surface have limbs made for walking on land, a completely non-streamlined body, and no fins (those wings are not fins, they’re weakly attached and would rip off at the first current)?

Lazy. Lazy. Lazy. And totally uncharacteristic of everything else ArenaNet has done. How did this come from the same company that gave the charr females 6 nondescript breasts and kept the sylvari from becoming (visually) another emo-elf race?

I really believe the game would be better if Largos were removed. Otherwise they either need a serious lore retcon to make sense or a complete visual re-design on the scale of Dragon Age 1 vs 2.

Who said anything about the largos never walking on the surface? That’s your fault, not the games. Also, you have no clue how those wings are attached in terms of their strength, so why are you complaining about your own assumptions?

I personally theorize the largos hold shared origins with the humans – given some similarities between them and Orrian culture (both have Arabic names, Sayeh can read Orrian) and the (albeit questionable) similarities between Dwayna and Melandru and the largos.

The largos were never seen in GW1, and we’re told they’re deep sea creatures. That’s enough for me to assume that they’re meant for the deep sea and not land. If its not enough for you, then fine, you’ve got a better suspension of disbelief than I do.

As to their precise anatomy, you’ll have a very hard time convincing me that their wings are actually functional fins. I’m a naturalist with regards to anatomy, and quite a student of it. That means that again I have a lower disbelief threshold than many others, and I’m perfectly willing to admit that my opinions there aren’t shared by everyone. In fact, I know I’m in the minority. A lot of people love the largos.

That doesn’t change the fact that the largos are one of the only species in this game that blatantly ignores the relationship between real world anatomical structures and the creature’s environment. Heck, even the cities pay more attention to the living relationship between a character (building, in this case) and its environment than the largos do. Its ridiculous. They’re just at a lower quality threshold overall than the rest of the game, and that makes them obnoxious to me.

Now, keep in mind this: the Largos probably would pass the quality test for half a hundred other games. Good games, even great games. They’re just not right for Guild Wars.

There are plenty of ways the largos here could have been well done. They simply weren’t.

In my mind we’re seeing like 6 or 7 Largos over the course of the game? I wouldn’t say any more than 10 of a WHOLE RACE. I don’t think an in-depth remodel would be too hard of a thing for players to accept. I mean comparing that to the shock when I saw the new Caithe for the first time after the remodel, and it’s nothing. We’ve literally just been teased on with these characters, and I have a good feeling that if they ever become more strongly involved, or they become a playable race, they will have this remodelling.

Jenosavel.1756:

The largos were never seen in GW1, and we’re told they’re deep sea creatures. That’s enough for me to assume that they’re meant for the deep sea and not land. If its not enough for you, then fine, you’ve got a better suspension of disbelief than I do.

Krait are also from the deep sea. But they build structures that go from these ocean depths to the water’s surface. Is it really impossible to believe the largos can’t do the same? Is it impossible to believe that while the largos may now live in the ocean depths, they didn’t before? That they could have been frequenting land before being pushed out of the Unending Ocean? Or that they lived in/near underwater air pockets?

It’s got nothing to do with suspension of disbelief. It’s got to do with there being so many reasonable and realistic possibilities.

I mean, they come from the same places at quaggans. Why do quaggans have legs and not fins? Does this break your immersion too?

Jenosavel.1756:

As to their precise anatomy, you’ll have a very hard time convincing me that their wings are actually functional fins.

Seeing them swim convinced me. When I saw them on land and saw how the “wings” were connected, I shared your view. It made little sense for the wings to be attached to the bottom of the neck (where the neck and shoulders meet, but above the shoulder bone). But watching the animation, it was actually made believable.

Jenosavel.1756:

Now, keep in mind this: the Largos probably would pass the quality test for half a hundred other games. Good games, even great games. They’re just not right for Guild Wars.

How, exactly, do they qualify for other games but not Guild Wars? What makes this so?

Narcemus.1348:

In my mind we’re seeing like 6 or 7 Largos over the course of the game? I wouldn’t say any more than 10 of a WHOLE RACE.

I think there’s exactly 9 – including the one who was in game for only a weekend during The Lost Shores.

Narcemus.1348:

In my mind we’re seeing like 6 or 7 Largos over the course of the game? I wouldn’t say any more than 10 of a WHOLE RACE.

I think there’s exactly 9 – including the one who was in game for only a weekend during The Lost Shores.

As to remodeling – I still don’t think its necessary. I think people just need to see more of them so that their good points stand out more. Most folks I’ve seen complain about the largos look at them at face value (or I suppose mask value for them). Though I do think they’ll receive more details, like a better face should the masks ever come off, as well as an explanation behind the masks and voice tones, but I don’t think an in-depth remodel would be needed.

Just don’t go giving them flippers…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Krait are also from the deep sea. But they build structures that go from these ocean depths to the water’s surface. Is it really impossible to believe the largos can’t do the same? Is it impossible to believe that while the largos may now live in the ocean depths, they didn’t before? That they could have been frequenting land before being pushed out of the Unending Ocean? Or that they lived in/near underwater air pockets?

It’s got nothing to do with suspension of disbelief. It’s got to do with there being so many reasonable and realistic possibilities.

I mean, they come from the same places at quaggans. Why do quaggans have legs and not fins? Does this break your immersion too?

The krait are believable because they’re at least relatively streamlined and their land-capable limbs are secondary to everything else. Quaggans for the same reason, especially if you watch the relative grace/clumsiness of their water/land animations. The krait also have very naturalistic motion (which is easy, since they’re essentially just snakes).

The krait’s limbs are proportionally small and unobtrusive, the quaggans’ get tucked up neatly when they swim around. This makes sense.

Largos are unbelievable because their water limbs are very much secondary to their land limbs. Unlike the krait or quaggan the largos have no sensible primary thrust creator. Their wings ripple a little and they kick with land-made feet. They would be sitting ducks ripe for every predator’s pleasure in the depths. This does not make me inclined to believe they’re such great assassins.

Worse yet, they move nearly identically in or out of water with very little respect to either environment. In fact, they move more like they’re always suspended in a gravity-free vacuum, like they’re super-humans with stiff bits of cloth taped to their backs.

This gets to the crux of the problem. It’s written off as a “magic” with no naturalistic explanation.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Seeing them swim convinced me. When I saw them on land and saw how the “wings” were connected, I shared your view. It made little sense for the wings to be attached to the bottom of the neck (where the neck and shoulders meet, but above the shoulder bone). But watching the animation, it was actually made believable.

And there I very much have to disagree with you. There just aren’t any structures in nature that work remotely like the largos moves. If their wings were in fact fins, then they should push the creature forward towards its chest rather than upwards towards its head. That’s how narrowly attached, wide-ended fins with a high degree of mobility work. Draw a line from the point of attachment to the opposite end of the fin. That’s the direction the creature should move. The largos do not. They attempt to mimic a gliding swim, but for a creature to do that, they need to have fins which are highly respectful to aerodynamics and largely rigid. Mantas, sharks, etc all have a lot in common with airplanes when you get right down to studying their mobility. The largos are the opposite of that. They’re about as opposite of aerodynamic as you can get, including their wing shape.

So to recap, there are fins that push a creature through the water, and there are fins that work like airplane wings to allow the creature to glide through the water. The largos have one and then try to move like the other, leaving them in a nowhere land of unbelievability. I can only conclude that they’re pulled through the water by magic, and it’s that “blame magic” with no naturalistic parallels that separates them from other creatures designs in the game and makes them stick out like a sore thumb.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

How, exactly, do they qualify for other games but not Guild Wars? What makes this so?

Not all games have the same cut-off for believably. Many up front say "it’s magic, and we really don’t care about whether this would actually work anywhere." The largos would fit well in those games. They’re sort of pretty, if you go for that thing, and in many games that’s enough. They’d work great in any number of Final Fantasy games, or in WoW, or in Aion even, but Guild Wars has a different aesthetic. Its creature designs are made with a high degree of respect for structural homologies and creature-environment synergies. It’s easier to just ignore this, and many successful fantasy games do. But it’s that element which makes the world feel more alive to me than other fantasy games. I love that. I really can’t put into words how much I love that, and the largos go and break it on me.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I think there’s exactly 9 - including the one who was in game for only a weekend during The Lost Shores.

As to remodeling - I still don’t think its necessary. I think people just need to _see more of them_ so that their good points stand out more. Most folks I’ve seen complain about the largos look at them at face value (or I suppose mask value for them). Though I do think they’ll receive more details, like a better face should the masks ever come off, as well as an explanation behind the masks and voice tones, but I don’t think an in-depth remodel would be needed.

Just don’t go giving them flippers...

See, I don’t think they need flippers (again more of a glide mechanic). They do need streamlining though, and more attention paid to real-life creatures with fins that could be worked into their existing design. Like a lionfish, for example.

I mean, how cool would it be if the largos had a little more lionfish in their wing/fin design, and instead of sticking out straight off the back they angled down and wrapped the body instead? You could get both a proper angle of motion to match their anatomy as well as a cool "my fins are clothing" look outside of water. Of you could leave their wings facing the direction they do now, but instead of flying like superman, they have to curl into a more aerodynamic ball/wedge/arrowhead shape as they’re pushed forward rather than up.

Really, there are a ton of different design approaches which would address their anatomy-for-environment issues, and almost all of them would be less cliche and boring than what we have now. Because we really ought to face the music here. The largos designs, as is, are little more than butterfly-winged dark elves. In the same way that I’m glad the sylvari were moved away from a generic elf look, I would like to see some more creativity applied to the largos.

if the krait and quarggans can be pushed to the surface of the ocean can the largos not been pushed to the depths of the ocean because of the reason the krait and quargans got pushed up taking into account that they are a race of huntsmen that are always looking for the perfect pray?
they could also been pushed down to the depths, and found some great areas where there are air pockets and thous living on land far under the water, there are so many possibletys for it to be possible, as we dont know there history or where there origanse is all we know is they toke contact to use from the depths of the ocean nothing else.

About why they have limbs and why their wing/fins are attached to the neck:

Traits necessary for future playable races. They need limbs to wear boots and gloves like other playable races, and the wings starting there prevent clipping issues with armors.

And as Konig said, once you watch them swin, it makes total sense. They look beautiful when swiming, very good animation.

I really hope we end up playing as them, they have a lot of playable race traits, including a society divided in houses (obvious Bio option with margin for one evil house like the Flame Legion with the legions), humanoid bodies, not being a poor race you need to help, lots of potential for personalization (wing shapes and patterns), etc…

In fact I’m starting to get armor pieces for my future Largos Mesmer :P

Jenosavel.1756:

Worse yet, they move nearly identically in or out of water with very little respect to either environment.

Apparently you and I are seeing different animations then.

Jenosavel.1756:

It’s written off as a “magic”.

If anyone’s writing things off as “its magic” – it’s the players. Namely, you in this case.

The explanation Korsbaek mentions is the only one you can really believe with things as they are. The largos are a land race, pure and simple, that for some unexplained reason decided to live in the depths. They’re ill-adapted and can’t even breath underwater (or at least, that seems the logical explanation for their masks), yet somehow they have developed these "fins" I’m supposed to believe work underwater? No, I don’t buy it. Their wings, like everything else about them, are ill-adapted to a life at the bottom. It seems inevitable to me that they had to flee back to the surface, yet they persist in and near water despite their awkwardness.

And you know, guys, I’m really trying to keep this from becoming personal. I understand that some people love the largos. I understand that some people actually want them as playable characters someday. I knew this before my first post, and I’m trying not to belittle anyone who actually likes them. You’re entitled to your opinion, and should probably be happy that you’re in the majority here. But I’m also entitled to my opinion, and while in the minority, I’m not the only person who finds the largos design to be lacking.

For me, Guild Wars is a more interesting world without a race of elves tossed in. This was true when the sylvari re-design happened, and it would be true if the largos were ever re-designed as well. Going to elf designs is a lazy fallback these days, and I’m really quite bored with it. Sticking wings on and putting them underwater doesn’t make up for the fact that they’re still pretty much just elves. And if you’ll notice, elves are conspicuously missing from the rest of the game, and I think there’s a reason for that. In fact, I think my opinion was probably shared by the someone(s) behind the sylvari re-design.

(fun trivia fact for you reaaaaaally old school GW people, did you know that originally the charr were going to be just some orcs? ANet’s amazing art team said no to orcs for the same reason they said no to elves. Orcs & elves is over-done. New ideas can be far more interesting and release the writers/artists’ creativity.)

I think the elf thing is a central point I should probably have made sooner. Some people will go crazy for elves no matter where they find them. Elves are "humans but better" so not only are they relateable, they’re ripe for hero worship. You pretty much can not make an elf race without flocks of fan worship. It’s normal.

And don’t get me wrong, I’ve been in those hordes plenty of times myself. But I’ve long since lost my fascination with an over-done idea. For elves to be interesting these days, they have to rise to a whole different level of good writing, which the largos haven’t. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t in the future, but if they’re ever to move beyond a peripheral near-forgotten race, they’re going to need some serious updating. I suspect that the reason people who dislike largos aren’t more vocal about it is because (for now) they’re easy to ignore. If you pushed them into the spotlight as is, threads like this would become a lot more common.

tdlr: Right now the largos are underwater elves. I know I’m not the only one who finds that boring.

Jenosavel, I gota say I agree with you. Personally, i like their wing-fin things, but they gota get rid of the human-like hair, and get rid of the long ears. Id like to see tentacles, ala Pirates of the carribbean Davey Jones. Just my opinion, and wanted to give Jeno some support haha Their lore is neat, and i like the idea of an underwater playable race, but they need a lil touch up.

Looking at the facts, there are some interesting possibilities presented.

The largos seem developed for land, with a naming structure possibly similar to Orrians. Does this suggest that there is some link, direct or otherwise? A direct link would be some set of Orrians, at some point in the past, decided to leave for the deep sea for whatever reasons. An indirect link might be that the naming conventions are a result of some prior contact between the two peoples, not necessarily a shared ancestry.

Without trying to speculate too much on precisely why they decided to live on the bottom of the ocean, there are some possibly explanations for how the “wings” (or whatever you want to call them) might have come to be.

First is that it actually is “magic”. Without a detailed history impossible except by declaration from ANet, we cannot definitively say that something isn’t magic unless it happens after the gods took back magic. Without knowing when the largos moved to the bottom of the sea, magic might have been involved.

Secondly is science. As has been noted previously, they seem oddly designed for living in the deep sea. This might be because they were just that…designed poorly. Some genius (or a set of such minds, possibly over generations) with more talent in biological and/or genetic manipulation than naturalistic design might come up with people like the largos.

As a question, because I can’t remember myself, do the largos wear the mask underwater? I recall that Sayeh wore it on land, but I don’t specifically remember if it was on or off in the temple. If they wear it only on land it would be understandable, but if they wear it underwater too then there would seem to be more going on.

The largos are a fantasy race; if they were mere-people, I bet there’d be less complaints. Not because that would make more sense, but because it’s a familiar fantasy archetype. I agree that there are probably a lot of things about the largos that don’t fit what we see in ocean-dwelling creatures in our world, but that kind of anatomical stuff has never been a huge priority in fantasy races.

As for them all of a sudden turning up, I don’t think the lack of largos in the rest of the game is an oversight or lazy at all – I think it’s very deliberate. As I’ve said elsewhere, ArenaNet are planning for a long game with Guild Wars 2. There are a lot of things introduced in minor ways throughout the game but never well explained, and they’re introduced so that they can be expanded upon later. I’d be willing to put money on the fact that the largos were scattered around a few events at release – and included once in personal story to drive it home – because ArenaNet have plans to use them as an integral part of a later story.

In fact, I won’t be surprised if they end up playable, but that’s totally up in the air.
TL;DR: the few of them we see are deliberately unusual, but scattered around as set-up for something else.

I always got the feeling the largos were being set up to be present for later use. We do have a deep sea dragon after all . . .

Jenosavel.1756:

That doesn’t change the fact that the largos are one of the only species in this game that blatantly ignores the relationship between real world anatomical structures and the creature’s environment.

Among other creatures that blatantly ignore real world anatomical structures:
Griffons, harpies, bats, fireflies and other flying critters – their wingspans are far, far too small for creatures of those sizes to stay aloft. Maybe Tyria is low gravity? That would explain a lot in game, actually…

Norn, Ogres – the legs would have to be thicker or made of something Humans don’t have to support a running, jumping biped of that size (about 80% thicker than Human legs, or 30% thicker in proportion to their bodies, assuming they are a 50% scaled up Human anatomy).

Giants – Like Norn and Ogres, but more so.

Jellyfish – not sure how they are achieving that rapid forward motion. Their umbrella membranes clearly don’t expel any more water than a normal large Cnidarian, but they move much, much faster. I am not sure how they eat enough, either. Their body structures resemble small Cnidarians, but larger ones need much longer stalks and more epidermal structures to catch and digest enough food and distribute nutrients.

How do those tiny aquabreathers extract enough oxygen from water to support a Human who is fighting? Not to mention what the requirements of Norn or Charr must be… Oxygen must be a lot more soluble in Tyrian water than Earth water.

Speaking of aquabreathers, it is worth noting that Largos seem to wear aquabreathers. This suggests they might not be naturally aquatic.

^ apparently someone with deeper understanding in natural science and anatomy pointed out some anomalies and reasoning that were missed by the previous proud naturalist and student of anatomy

Jenosavel.1756:

The explanation Korsbaek mentions is the only one you can really believe with things as they are. The largos are a land race, pure and simple, that for some unexplained reason decided to live in the depths. They’re ill-adapted and can’t even breath underwater (or at least, that seems the logical explanation for their masks), yet somehow they have developed these “fins” I’m supposed to believe work underwater? No, I don’t buy it.

Funny, I noted the same possibility for the largos – the same Semil.8279 mentioned. They hold a lot of similarities to Orrians. I wouldn’t doubt if they were humans “blessed” by a god of water -coughAbaddoncough- to live underwater or some such. Or that they, for some reason, adapted to underwater life. Or just simply hold shared ancestors.

Though personally I’m hoping for the similarity to go only so far as “they were both brought from the same other world by the Six Gods.”

Also, the mask doesn’t imply they can’t breath underwater. Given their voice sounding like they’re speaking through liquid, I think the mask is more of an “airbreather” than an “aquabreather” – and to me, that’d be far more interesting. That they’d be incapable of breathing pure air and thus need their mask to live above water.

Jenosavel.1756:

For me, Guild Wars is a more interesting world without a race of elves tossed in.

I agree. And largos are nothing like elves. Ears and similar skin tone to Warcraft “night elves” (fun fact: original night elves from norse mythology are interchangable with dwarves) or not.

Jenosavel.1756:

Sticking wings on and putting them underwater doesn’t make up for the fact that they’re still pretty much just elves.

And if you notice, their entire culture differs. There’s little to nothing that’s elf-like to me in largos.

Then again, I don’t pay attention to warcraft.

I wouldn’t mind a redesign, however I don’t think a “massive” one is needed. Maybe animation changes, but again I think you’re over-exaggerating the problem.

The only animations of theirs that’s bad is their above water animations (especially the wings in that situation). But underwater I think their animations are fine. Not perfect, but not causing such great issues you’re making out.

Yeah, you’re entitled to your opinion, but I still think you’re over-exaggerating things.

JohnLShannonhouse.1820:

Speaking of aquabreathers, it is worth noting that Largos seem to wear aquabreathers. This suggests they might not be naturally aquatic.

I take those masks more as being breathers for above water.

JohnLShannonhouse.1820:

Jenosavel.1756:

That doesn’t change the fact that the largos are one of the only species in this game that blatantly ignores the relationship between real world anatomical structures and the creature’s environment.

Among other creatures that blatantly ignore real world anatomical structures:
Griffons, harpies, bats, fireflies and other flying critters – their wingspans are far, far too small for creatures of those sizes to stay aloft. Maybe Tyria is low gravity? That would explain a lot in game, actually…

These are great examples that all reinforce rather than contradict my point. There’s a huge difference between taking an existing structure and embellishing it as opposed to tossing known rules out the window. It’s exaggeration vs contradiction. Exaggeration is great, it’s what makes fantasy worlds larger than life, but if you completely ignore and therefore (unintentionally or otherwise) contradict the rules of the real world, then that’s where you risk causing a break in immersion.

So to the example of the winged folk, they still have wings, and wings that at least generally mimic the proper structure. Yes they’re too small, and probably more importantly they all seem to have severe deformations in their secondaries (or they’re just lacking them, many of the wings appear to cut off at the secondary coverlets). That’s quibbly though. It’s a modification of an existing rule of nature rather than a direct contradiction to it.

The real contradiction with griffins would be the presence of 6 limbs rather than 4, and while that does break a rule of nature (creatures within a single evolutionary chain share the same limb counts), it breaks it in such a consistent way within the world that you can suspend your disbelief over it. Dragons have 6 limbs too, afterall, so we just sort of have to assume that there are two separate evolutionary chains going on in Tyria, with dragons and griffins stemming from an entirely different branch than almost everything else.

JohnLShannonhouse.1820:

Norn, Ogres – the legs would have to be thicker or made of something Humans don’t have to support a running, jumping biped of that size (about 80% thicker than Human legs, or 30% thicker in proportion to their bodies, assuming they are a 50% scaled up Human anatomy).

Giants – Like Norn and Ogres, but more so.

As with wings, this is just an exaggeration of proportions. The underlying structures and shapes are all still sound. The right muscle groups still exist, and even in the right places.

Notice that I’m not arguing for strict adherence to real world anatomy, just a basic respect for it. If we were going to complain that the leg muscles on orgres and norn weren’t big enough, then we should really be arguing first that no creature the size of the giants or elder dragons could exist due to lack of oxygen in the air (the relative oxygenation of the air can be evidenced by the smaller body sizes of pretty much every major race).

This is not what I’m doing. That would be silly to complain about in a fantasy world, because without these sorts of exaggerations, it wouldn’t be fantasy anymore.

JohnLShannonhouse.1820:

Jellyfish – not sure how they are achieving that rapid forward motion. Their umbrella membranes clearly don’t expel any more water than a normal large Cnidarian, but they move much, much faster. I am not sure how they eat enough, either. Their body structures resemble small Cnidarians, but larger ones need much longer stalks and more epidermal structures to catch and digest enough food and distribute nutrients.

This is true, and again a matter of exaggeration. They still make the same general movements as a real jellyfish and have the same general structure. That they move faster than a real jellyfish is no different than the fact that the charr run far slower than they should on all fours or that pretty much everyone and everything jumps way higher than they should.

Again, larger than life exaggerations like this are great for fantasy.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Jenosavel.1756:

Guild Wars is a more interesting world without a race of elves tossed in.

I agree. And largos are nothing like elves. Ears and similar skin tone to Warcraft “night elves” (fun fact: original night elves from norse mythology are interchangable with dwarves) or not.

I don’t define elves by skin color or pointy ears, I define them by “Nearly inseparable from humans in form and function except for token modifications. Typically longer lived, wiser, and more mysterious.”

The skin color, ears, and wings fall into token modifications. Nothing about the rest of the largos’ visible anatomy differentiates them from humans in any way. Here’s the test I’d like them to pass: if you chopped off their wings, what in the rest of their physical structure would tell you that anything was out of place? If the first time you saw a largos, it was without its wings, what would clue you in that it wasn’t quite complete?

Currently the answer is nothing, and that’s very much a problem. You shouldn’t be able to just chop off a creature’s limbs without anyone noticing. That’s what leads me to label something as “tacked on.”

Without their wings, the largos are blue humans with long ears. If you saw them without their wings, there would be nothing to visually distinguish them from an elf. I would like to see that changed, so that if you saw a largos without its wings you would still know that this creature has probably spent quite a bit of time underwater.

For example (and again, there are probably a million ways to update them), the rest of their body could be more streamlined, angularly flowing from the shoulders where the wing attachment happens. Their arms and legs could be flatter and sharper than a human’s strictly round cross-sectioned limbs. Perhaps their faces as well could be more angular, though not losing the general human impression that lets us empathize with them. (there’s a lot of fun to be had in nearly-but-not-quite human faces, as the sylvari design exemplifies)

If you came across a creature like that with its wings chopped off you would still have some idea of where it came from. It’s that cohesiveness that I miss in the largos and why I call their design lazy. No one stopped to think about what effect those wings would have on the rest of their bodies or what effect the rest of their bodies would have on their wings.

The wings are tacked on, and even though it could be written off through lore (Abbadon gifting them wings), they would never be as compelling as if they were built into a single cohesive unit.

Unless, of course, they decided to play up the separateness in the lore and go the route of the largos not actually having wings at all, but having wing-like symbiotic/parasitic organisms which attach and feed off of them in return for enabling underwater movement. (that sounds like the sort of “gift” Abbadon might give, actually)

That would be the “whole new level of writing” which I said can make elf-like races work. We currently don’t have that level of development put into them, however.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Jenosavel.1756:

Sticking wings on and putting them underwater doesn’t make up for the fact that they’re still pretty much just elves.

And if you notice, their entire culture differs. There’s little to nothing that’s elf-like to me in largos.

Not all elves have the same culture across fantasy, so I don’t really define elves by the details of their culture as much as by the “humans but better & more mysterious” standard for their personalities. The largos fit that, being obviously mysterious and also reknowned bad-kittenassins.

To you there’s little elf-like about the largos. To me there’s little to differentiate them from a generic “magical human clone.” I think that’s where the disagreement stems from.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I wouldn’t mind a redesign, however I don’t think a "massive" one is needed. Maybe animation changes, but again I think you’re over-exaggerating the problem.

The only animations of theirs that’s bad is their above water animations (especially the wings in _that_ situation). But underwater I think their animations are fine. Not perfect, but not causing such great issues you’re making out.

Yeah, you’re entitled to your opinion, but I still think you’re over-exaggerating things.

I’m willing to concede that my issues with their animations are probably more severe than the average user, and not all animations should be re-worked to my standards. That’s what happens when you work as an animator for 6+ years. (I still can’t use cats on my ranger main due to their horrendous run animation)

Honestly, I’d probably learn to live with it if the rest of their anatomy gave any sort of nod to their wings, or vice verse. That the two feel like separate systems with no impact on one another is what bothers me most. I almost expect at any point in time for the largos to just reach around and take their wings off.

Lokheit.7943:

About why they have limbs and why their wing/fins are attached to the neck:

Traits necessary for future playable races. They need limbs to wear boots and gloves like other playable races, and the wings starting there prevent clipping issues with armors.

In fact I’m starting to get armor pieces for my future Largos Mesmer :P

The wings could have easily been a lot more ray like, and probably so if they were made to be a minor race. They are made to be a major race, and likely playable. Wings like that make it easy for armor to fit on them.

Who knows we might get another profession with them!?!

I’m not too keen on the idea of Largos being a playable race either, but I’m just adopting a “wait and see” stance. My major misgiving with them stem mainly from the fact that, as an aquatic race, it wouldn’t make sense for them to be adventuring for days, weeks or even months away from the ocean. They also feel like a very one-dimensional race (but then again, I thought much the same thing about the Norn in EotN).

On a more practical level, underwater areas and combat are actively hated by a large part of the player base, so if the Largos were to be introduced alongside an underwater capital city and a greater emphasis on underwater combat, we’d probably see a backlash that I think ANet would be better off avoiding in the first place.

Zaxares.5419:

I’m not too keen on the idea of Largos being a playable race either, but I’m just adopting a “wait and see” stance. My major misgiving with them stem mainly from the fact that, as an aquatic race, it wouldn’t make sense for them to be adventuring for days, weeks or even months away from the ocean. They also feel like a very one-dimensional race (but then again, I thought much the same thing about the Norn in EotN).

On a more practical level, underwater areas and combat are actively hated by a large part of the player base, so if the Largos were to be introduced alongside an underwater capital city and a greater emphasis on underwater combat, we’d probably see a backlash that I think ANet would be better off avoiding in the first place.

But how did a Largos get all the way to Snowden Drifts? That’s high up in the mountains. He would have to travel on land for days to get up there. So clearly Largos can reach any place in Tyria if they can get up there.

We will have to go underwater to fight DSD. All of this underwater combat and emphasis on underwater will be there anyway and the Largos are just adding on to that, not the reason for it. His Army is made up of underwater creatures so I don’t think we would be fighting him on land. So really if you want to argue against emphasis on underwater it would have to be against DSD, not the Largos.

Midnight Gypsy.9360:

But how did a Largos get all the way to Snowden Drifts? That’s high up in the mountains. He would have to travel on land for days to get up there. So clearly Largos can reach any place in Tyria if they can get up there.

We will have to go underwater to fight DSD. All of this underwater combat and emphasis on underwater will be there anyway and the Largos are just adding on to that, not the reason for it. His Army is made up of underwater creatures so I don’t think we would be fighting him on land. So really if you want to argue against emphasis on underwater it would have to be against DSD, not the Largos.

Waypoints? Hehe, I don’t know. There’s also the Unseen Hunter in Brisban Wildlands which doesn’t connect to the ocean either. Maybe the Largos have a means of teleporting themselves from one body of water to another, which I would consider perfectly acceptable. My greater concern, again, is how a Largos would cope with an extended sojourn on land (or even if it’s possible for them to do so), since we never encounter a Largos any significant distance from the water.

We don’t know if we’ll actually confront the DSD as a combatable foe. For all we know, ANet may simply come out and say that the Largos managed to find a way to defeat the DSD all by themselves (or perhaps they allied with the other underwater races like the krait and quaggan), leaving us to focus on the landbound dragons.

I should probably reiterate that if ANet does end up making the Largos a playable race, I’ll accept it. I would rather that the Tengu, Krait, Skritt or even the Kodan become playable first, but ANet will make their own decision. I’ll adapt.

Zaxares.5419:

Midnight Gypsy.9360:

But how did a Largos get all the way to Snowden Drifts? That’s high up in the mountains. He would have to travel on land for days to get up there. So clearly Largos can reach any place in Tyria if they can get up there.

We will have to go underwater to fight DSD. All of this underwater combat and emphasis on underwater will be there anyway and the Largos are just adding on to that, not the reason for it. His Army is made up of underwater creatures so I don’t think we would be fighting him on land. So really if you want to argue against emphasis on underwater it would have to be against DSD, not the Largos.

Waypoints? Hehe, I don’t know. There’s also the Unseen Hunter in Brisban Wildlands which doesn’t connect to the ocean either. Maybe the Largos have a means of teleporting themselves from one body of water to another, which I would consider perfectly acceptable. My greater concern, again, is how a Largos would cope with an extended sojourn on land (or even if it’s possible for them to do so), since we never encounter a Largos any significant distance from the water.

We don’t know if we’ll actually confront the DSD as a combatable foe. For all we know, ANet may simply come out and say that the Largos managed to find a way to defeat the DSD all by themselves (or perhaps they allied with the other underwater races like the krait and quaggan), leaving us to focus on the landbound dragons.

I should probably reiterate that if ANet does end up making the Largos a playable race, I’ll accept it. I would rather that the Tengu, Krait, Skritt or even the Kodan become playable first, but ANet will make their own decision. I’ll adapt.

Colin talks about the dragons at the end of this and it sounds like we will get to fight against all of the dragons.

http://www.eurogamer.pt/videos/entrevista-game-designer-guild-wars-2

I like to think of the largos not as one-dimensional so much as still mysterious :P Maybe that’s optimistic of me, but I think it’s somewhat justified. Sure, most of us only know them as mysterious assassins, but that’s probably because those are the only largos you’re likely to ever meet, rather than because their entire society does that somehow.

The mentions of the Tethyos Houses hint at a much more complex society to me, but of course the largos aren’t particularly inclined to tell us about it right now. In many ways they remind me of the kandra from the Mistborn books, if anyone has read them. I definitely get the feeling that ArenaNet have worked out the largos a lot more than what we know, and they’ve made mention of a few specifics to show that.

Jenosavel.1756:

I don’t define elves by skin color or pointy ears, I define them by “Nearly inseparable from humans in form and function except for token modifications. Typically longer lived, wiser, and more mysterious.”

We have no clue how long largos live – no indication that they live either longer or shorter than other races, at all. The largos hardly seem any more wiser than humans – in fact, they seem on par, but knowing a different field while not knowing others’, and I’d hardly say that they themselves are meant to be mysterious – their mysterious nature seems solely on the fact that they’re not very well exposed.

And besides, if that’s what you define an elf to be, you’re solely mistaken on what an elf is.

Hell, by your definition the mursaat are elves! HOLY kitten PROPHECIES HAD ELVES! Hell, seers could be considered such by those three things as well. They’re basically four-armed dark-skinned bald humans who are 1) wise, 2) long lived (the one we meet in Prophecies? It met the titans eons ago), and 3) mysterious (nothing known).

If that’s all that’s needed to get your knickers in a bunch, they shoulda been bunching since day one.

To your postulation about chopping off a largos’ wings and seeing nothing wrong:

What if you chopped off a seer’s second set of arms? What if you got rid of norn’s shapeshifting? What if you got rid of the mursaat’s “wings”? What if you got rid of the fish-like skin of the Margonites? Could you tell anything was missing? No. Because they’re all limbs that aren’t essential for their way of life.

But if you cut off a largos’ arm or leg? Yeah, you’re going to notice something wrong. This isn’t an issue with the largos – this is a situation with dozens of animals. Whenever you get more than four limbs, getting rid of the extra won’t seem all that weird.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We have no clue how long largos live – no indication that they live either longer or shorter than other races, at all. The largos hardly seem any more wiser than humans – in fact, they seem on par, but knowing a different field while not knowing others’, and I’d hardly say that they themselves are meant to be mysterious – their mysterious nature seems solely on the fact that they’re not very well exposed.

And besides, if that’s what you define an elf to be, you’re solely mistaken on what an elf is.

Hell, by your definition the mursaat are elves! HOLY kitten PROPHECIES HAD ELVES! Hell, seers could be considered such by those three things as well. They’re basically four-armed dark-skinned bald humans who are 1) wise, 2) long lived (the one we meet in Prophecies? It met the titans eons ago), and 3) mysterious (nothing known).

If that’s all that’s needed to get your knickers in a bunch, they shoulda been bunching since day one.

I care about the themes rather than the details when defining elves. I don’t see why that’s particularly controversial.

The forefather of all we consider “elven” currently was Tolkien. Thematically, he used them as a utopian version of humanity, used as a way to critique some aspect of humanity that’s failing. Thus my “humans but better” layman definition. Elves don’t really have anything to differentiate them from humans except that they’re better, and that differentiation is often emphasized by the elves losing some of their superiority when they allow themselves to be caught up in human affairs. What form that superiority takes is variable in each universe and largely irrelevant. It could be longer life, more beautiful bodies, higher wisdom, grace, darn near anything, really. What really matters is that outside of this superiority they are human. If you take away those superior traits the elf literally becomes a human (hi there Arwen).

By that definition, are the mursaat elves? No, not at all. Yes they’re more powerful, but they’re also evil overlords. You never get the impression that there could be some kind of back-and-forth where mursaat could fall to become human or humans could, if they only were a little bit better, rise to become mursaat. The same is true with the seers.

What about the largos? All we really have to go by is that they’re super honorable and never break their word / always pay their debts (which makes them better), they’re deadly to the point of being almost untouchable (again, making them better), and despite no anatomical sense to it, they possess extreme physical prowess both on land and in the sea (again… better than humanity). The mystery, remoteness, and implied age of their society again implies superiority, by making it out that that lowly humans aren’t worthy to know more about it or interact with it lest they muddy it (thereby tainting the utopia and bringing it down to humanity’s level).

And on top of this, there are already people saying largos may be interchangeable with humans, that Abbadon might have taken humans and upgraded them to life under the sea (making them better), or that the largos might actually be the race from which the human gods arose.

That makes them pretty classic elves.

You could break this effect by giving them sufficient flaws to bring them down to reality, but so far I’ve only seen 2 real flaws to speak of. 1) They’re ruthless hunters. This is portrayed as an improvement, though, because their killing is honor bound to their society and they’re super bad-kitten experts at it. 2)They’re smug jerks towards us lowly other races. That by itself only implies yet more superiority until we see something to prove their opinions of us wrong. And maybe that something does exist, but with our limited exposure to them we sure haven’t seen it yet.

The problem is that lacking a lore distinction to break them from humans-but-better, all we have to work with is their visuals. This puts a higher pressure on their visual design, and is why the sylvari re-design was so critical to them becoming their own unique race.

The largos, unfortunately, fail there. If you chop off their wings, they’re just blue humans. They have our exact proportions (at least the norn try not to). They have fingers just like us (seriously, underwater and no webbing?). They have feet meant for standing on land, despite kicking them underwater (for all the good that would do). They have our hair, despite the fact that it could only serve to create drag underwater. Their masks heavily imply that their facial structure is human as well.

Visually they’re just blue humans with wings tapped on. I really don’t know how anyone could argue that.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

To your postulation about chopping off a largos’ wings and seeing nothing wrong:

What if you chopped off a seer’s second set of arms? What if you got rid of norn’s shapeshifting? What if you got rid of the mursaat’s "wings"? What if you got rid of the fish-like skin of the Margonites? Could you tell anything was missing? No. Because they’re all limbs that aren’t essential for their way of life.

But if you cut off a largos’ arm or leg? Yeah, you’re going to notice something wrong. This isn’t an issue with the largos - this is a situation with dozens of animals. Whenever you get more than four limbs, getting rid of the extra won’t seem all that weird.

What makes the seers any better? As you can’t see the place of attachment, you have no idea if those extra limbs are better or worse off than the largos, but believe it or not, I like to give ArenaNet the benefit of the doubt until its proven otherwise. Since the forgotten have the same number and general configuration of arms as the seers, I’m inclined to believe they have similar anatomy. The forgotten’s extra arm attachments are very much visible, and they’re decently done. Their webbing ties the extra limbs into the rest of its body, making them feel like part of a cohesive whole rather than separate systems. That believeability imprints itself on the seer’s similar structure.

What if you cut off the mursaat’s wings? Well, those are very stuck-on, I will admit. It doesn’t bother me though 1) because the mursaat are already sufficiently differentiated from humanity before their wings come into question, and 2) they’re not supposed to be functional in the first place. For all I know, the mursaat’s "wings" could actually be magic-sensitive antennae. They’re just decoration. If the largos’ wings were just decoration as well, maybe I wouldn’t mind them, but they’re not. They’re a central part of the creature’s anatomy, and as such they should have an impact on that anatomy. Currently they don’t.

Without the wings, there is literally nothing besides skin color and ear length to visually differentiate the largos from humans. That is a serious problem.

I’m tired of this back-and-forthness so I’ll just respond to this:

Jenosavel.1756:

By that definition, are the mursaat elves? No, not at all. Yes they’re more powerful, but they’re also evil overlords. You never get the impression that there could be some kind of back-and-forth where mursaat could fall to become human or humans could, if they only were a little bit better, rise to become mursaat.

You clearly haven’t been in the lore community for long.

The original theories on the mursaat were that they were ascended humans. Hell, if not for GW2 outright stating they predate humanity, that theory would still exist. Furthermore, people have made theories saying that the mursaat took Saul and turned him into a mursaat!

Before GW2 and WiK painted the mrusaat as selfish kittens who’d sell their own mother to save their skin, the mursaat were almost always viewed as a race who were doing the lesser of two evils for the greater good – sacrifice a few thousand humans that could potentially doom the world to keep the Door of Komalie closed and, in turn, keep the Titans (and by extension, The Fury and Abaddon) at bay.

The mursaat started out exactly like the largos but with even more mysteriousness around them! In fact they began as WORSE offenders to the very claims you’re giving the largos in terms of the humanoid appearance! The mursaat were far more dark elf-like than the largos will ever be. They only recently – with GW2 – escaped that filing. Now why would Anet remove the mursaat just to put another race into it? Face it, all your complaints are based on the sole lack of information. It isn’t mysteriousness, it’s unknown. There’s a difference.

Jenosavel.1756:

Without the wings, there is literally nothing besides skin color and ear length to visually differentiate the largos from humans. That is a serious problem.

Without the wings, there is literally nothing besides skin color and powerful magic to visually differentiate the mursaat from humans. That is a serious problem.

cwutididthar?

@Jenosavel

Have you read Lord of the Rings? Or more specifically have you read the Silmarillion? You seem to think that mursaat could not be elves because of their evil intentions? Elves were freaking mass murdering barbarians in the Silmarillion. They killed their own kin because they couldn’t get a boat ride across to land, then they burned the city, stole the boats, and burned the boats on the other side. Many, many elves became evil, in fact they received some poetic justice in the end when they finally got the silmarils back, but that’s a story for another day.

And your argument that mursaat and seer can’t be elves because humans cannot ascend into them is crap. Humanity and Elves were always two distinctly different races and only half-elves and their children could chose between the life of an elf or the life of mortal man. Arwen was the daughter of a half-elf, Elrond, and she was able to make that choice. Thus ascension is not even a possible argument. The Valar even tried to give humanity elf like life spans, but they could only extend human lives to around 300 years, which is still pitiful in elven eyes.

And yes, I was a Lord of the Ring lore nerd loooooong before Guild Wars.

I agree that the Largos design is bad, especially in comparison to so much else in the game. The wings look genetically engineered and attached if anything – there is nothing to show that the wings are organically part of the Largos body – they don’t look natural. Alternately, you could also say that the Largos are too humanoid (ground adapted) to be deep sea creatures. As mentioned earlier, an aqueous/amphibian race would probably be awkward on land (like Quaggan) if using legs or possess alternate methods of movement (like Krait). If the Largos society had lived in the deep sea for an extended period of time, their legs would be less developed, atrophied, or possibly vestigial.

Yes, because in the instance that they were a land based race that moved or were blessed to live in the ocean they would never use their legs to swim… We know absolutely NOTHING about them, so until we do we can’t really say a whole lot about how “poorly” designed they are.

I have the same problem as Jenosavel. I want to like the Largos, but I can’t, mainly due to their design. Most other creatures in GW2 work from an evolutionary standpoint with a bit of suspension of disbelief thrown in. Asura are small with massive ears because they live underground. Their teeth are sharp, they might have originally evolved as carnivores or insectivores. Charr look like they evolved from big cats, and became bipedal to manipulate things with their paws to compete with other sapient species. Quaggans are blubbery and round as water-dwelling mammals are, as well as some ancient aquatic reptiles like the Plesiosaurs. These designs work well, they’re streamlined with small limbs. And Quaggans are actually amphibious, but those land-limbs can work just fine in the water. Look at otters, with their stubby legs that tuck against their bodies.
Krait work well, too. They look like, well, particularly thick-bodied sea kraits – which are real serpents – just with arms. And if you get close to a Krait and look at it, those arms are stubby and short. They can tuck up against that smooth body, out of the way.

And then you have Largos. The human body is not a graceful thing in the water, compared to animals that evolved for it. Maybe they were land-based humanoids that took to the water at some point. But if they’re mammals that live in the deep ocean, they need blubber to cope with the frigidity of the water without freezing to death. Their fins look awkward and tacked on, and as though they couldn’t easily move an animal of their size and non-aerodynamic build. They honestly look as though they could get more in the way than anything else, and their animations do not look realistic to me. Now, remove the big awkward fins. Imagine them as having a long tail that could actually propel them, an extension of their body that their land-dwelling limbs could tuck up against. Give them thicker hides. A sort of rugged mermaid with legs. They would still be a little awkward, but considerably more realistic, and still capable of wearing armour and clothing. You could tack on a few short dolphin/shark-like fins, maybe on the back to just drive home the “aquatic creature” theme without killing the aerodynamics. If they kept the hair it would probably need to be tied back tightly, otherwise it could become a real safety issue in a fight, and would create drag during an escape. Their hands and feet need to be webbed. Even Newfoundland dogs have webbed feet to swim in water.

I would like the largos quite a bit more if they looked like that. Like something that could actually survive in the water without freezing to death or floundering around uselessly. Right now, they look like a bad case of “a wizard did it” – and very incompetently at that. And they really do look like elves thrown in the ocean imo.

Don’t listen to the haters Anet. I like the Largos and I’m really curious to know more about them. Would LOVE to have them as a playable race one day.

I can well imagine a time in Orr when some clever Orians with their “every-day” magical capabilities decided to mine the nearby ocean for rich gemstones, or simply underwater truffles. These groups soon formed into clans, which increased the competition among them for access to the best resources. Delving deeper into their natural Orrian magic they finally decided to live underwater, creating some membrane for support (which might have been more for looks than utility) as well as aqua-breathers. Perhaps they once had caravans that would venture out onto land to sell the riches of their oceans? Perhaps the undersea dragon transformed their world into a dessert?

Oh suspension of believe…

The Largos do remind me a lot about the Arabian Nights. They had “masked” assassins, Arabic-sounding names and when looking at Arabians portrayed in fantasy they seemed to share the same codes of honor and respect.

Please continue this topic!

Beside sayeh al-rajihd there are a number of other Largos hunting dangerous preys all over Kryta. largos are best known for stalking their dangerous preys in the deep sea. However, when GW 2 first started, and long before my introduction to sayeh al-rajihd and the Largos kind in my personal story, I unbeknown to me stumbled upon a Largos killing scene in the final act of dispatching a humanoid boss. This was a powerful land cretin and it happened on land but close to the sea. After the largos made its poetic eulogy over its stilled victim, he wrapped his wings around himself like a bat and vanished up into thin air (as in disappearing up into the sky). From that short and sudden experience, I think Largos can move and hunt equally well on land as on sea, and using similar locomotion on both.