Guild Wars 2

just follow the order when each dragon awakens and the eternal alchemy cutscene will make sence. players so focus on it being modremoth coz of we know thats what scarlet saw, maybe scarlet saw the same thing as we did and she realize that theres a 6th dragon and she intended to awaken it to continue the cycle of the eternal alchemy. or maybe the dark green orb going to the center means power returning back to tyria when zaitan died? or did he really died?

If your implying the green orb is Zhaitan, than who is the black orb?

it’s not zhaitan. it would completely defeat the purpose of the cutscene, which is about mordremoth and the pale tree, if it was zhaitan staring back at us in the end.

BrunoBRS.5178:

it’s not zhaitan. it would completely defeat the purpose of the cutscene, which is about mordremoth and the pale tree, if it was zhaitan staring back at us in the end.

You don’t know it’s all about Mordremoth. The orbs seem to light up in the order the dragons awoke, except for Zhaitan/Mordremoth. If we make it so the orb that crashed into the center was Zhaitan and the other is Mordremoth, then they light up in the correct order. Plus, if you go around and read stuff in Scarlet’s room and talk to the Pale Tree, there’s a bunch more content and dialogue about the fact that the dragons are a part of the natural balance of the world in the same way huge forest fires are part of the balance of nature. So if we look at the cutscene again and consider the crashing orb to be Zhaitan, we might say that everything was in balance (when all orbs were in orbit), but when we killed Zhaitan (orb crashing), it disrupted the balance of things. I read an interesting theory that all the dragons balance each other out (Primordius/Jormag = fire/ice, bubbles/Kralkatorrik = sea/dessert, Mordremoth/Zhaitan = life/death) so once Zhaitan died, Mordremoth was no longer balanced out as Zhaitan’s magic leaks back out into Tyria and the mists. So basically by killing Zhaitan, we messed up the entire balance of the world.

It’s not said anywhere that the cutscene is about Mordremoth, so we can’t really assume that it is just because he’s awake.

Lord Hammer Hand.4815:

just follow the order when each dragon awakens and the eternal alchemy cutscene will make sence. players so focus on it being modremoth coz of we know thats what scarlet saw, maybe scarlet saw the same thing as we did and she realize that theres a 6th dragon and she intended to awaken it to continue the cycle of the eternal alchemy. or maybe the dark green orb going to the center means power returning back to tyria when zaitan died? or did he really died?

Yes, Zhaitan is dead. The devs (and your story journal) confirm that Zhaitan is dead. Very dead.

OK…if we hit this logically and the orbs lit up on each dragons awakening then we have an apparent issue with the one dragon orb smashing into the center orb. Or do we? Think about this as a map of what has happened so far, not as being able to foresee the future.

If each of these globes is representative of each dragon and the realm of the universe they control, the question that needs to be addressed is ‘How would a dragon death be represented in this scheme?’.

Since it appears that this is a closed system, running between activity and inactivity of the dragon spheres, what woul happen to a sphere that is destroyed? Would the energy dissipate into the universe? Not in a closed system, it would have to go somewhere. It can either be dispersed equally amongst the remaining dragon orbs, or absorbed into the central orb. This is actually what occurs to the Zhaitan orb. The question then comes in, ‘How would this manifest itself in Tyria?’

There are dev statements that there are reasons for Tequatl getting stronger/harder based in the lore. I’m pretty sure this is that reason.

The energy/dragon magic/whatever you would like to call it has been absorbed into the magic energy system of Tyria. Does it get evenly divided? Does some go to the Pale Tree? Ahh, these are the stories to come in the GW2 adventure.

But the end here is that the orbs ARE representing each dragon, one has been killed, and the energy has been spread throughout the central orb.

Lorewise, this game has always been about the path to hell being lined with good intentions. GW1 Every storyline dealt with this theme and ended up with us having been the instrument of our own doom by taking the ‘noble’ path instead of the overarching view that the survival of the whole is more important than the sum of its inhabitants.

Roybe.5896:

Lorewise, this game has always been about the path to hell being lined with good intentions. GW1 Every storyline dealt with this theme and ended up with us having been the instrument of our own doom by taking the ‘noble’ path instead of the overarching view that the survival of the whole is more important than the sum of its inhabitants.

This is a very elegant way of putting it.

Basically by killing Zhaitan we kittened ourselves over.

Leallax.1482:

The orbs seem to light up in the order the dragons awoke, except for Zhaitan/Mordremoth.

You mean, only Primordus and Kralkatorrik’s orbs shine in the placement they awoke (1st and 5th respectively). The order of orb shining is:

Red→Blue→White→Green→Purple→Black

Tying this to the CoE zone colors we get:

Primordus→DSD→Jormag→Mordremoth→Kralkatorrik→Zhaitan

However the order of dragon awakening was:

Primordus→Jormag→Zhaitan→DSD→Kralkatorrik→Mordremoth

Thus the color order should be, if representing awakening:

Red→White→Black→Blue→Purple→Green

So the orbs lighting up don’t represent order of awakening.

What if it’s strength instead, with strongest to weakest? Or order of intelligence? Or order of dominion size (biggest to smallest)? Or even order of age (oldest to youngest)? There’s a dozen possibilities…

And I am liking the strength level or age concepts…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

However the order of dragon awakening was:

Primordus->Jormag->Zhaitan->DSD->Kralkatorrik->Mordremoth

Was it ever officially stated that Bubbles came between Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik?

Indirectly, yes.

The Movement of the World talked about the Elder Dragons in the order of their awakening, though when that was written Jormag and Zhaitan’s placement of awakening were switched around. In an interview between Kill Ten Rats and Jeff Grubb, Jeff was asked why the Elder Dragons awaken at such a distance from each other and Jeff responded with “you mean why they awaken roughly 50 years apart?” (paraphrased) before answering. The krait and quaggan blog posts make heavy references about their ways of life changing 50 years prior to the game, and Angel McCoy in a forum post indirectly confirmed the conclusions made from the various evidences that made players believe the DSD awoke 50 years prior to the game (roughly).

We’ve known since before release that the ED awoke roughly 50 years apart, and there was a 100 year gap between Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik while the DSD’s placement was unclear except the Movement of the World’s mentioning them in a certain order. The DSD awoke in the center of that 100 year gap. And, as said, Angel McCoy indirectly confirmed such conclusions back around Battle for Lion’s Arch amongst her various forum posts.

But, then again, out of game stuff is “malleable.”

sooooo… i guess i’m the only one willing to concede that the order isn’t really the order of anything >.>

so many more interesting things in that cutscene to discuss other than some arbitrary ranking that really doesn’t fit any theory ¬¬ (some people are now claiming it’s the “stirring of the champions”… just how far are you willing to go to get that kitten order thing to work?)

Stirring of champions? But Glint stirred first! Purple should be first then.

I prefer age. Or strength. Those make more sense, and makes future plots more interesting.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Leallax.1482:

The orbs seem to light up in the order the dragons awoke, except for Zhaitan/Mordremoth.

You mean, only Primordus and Kralkatorrik’s orbs shine in the placement they awoke (1st and 5th respectively). The order of orb shining is:

Red->Blue->White->Green->Purple->Black

Tying this to the CoE zone colors we get:

Primordus->DSD->Jormag->Mordremoth->Kralkatorrik->Zhaitan

However the order of dragon awakening was:

Primordus->Jormag->Zhaitan->DSD->Kralkatorrik->Mordremoth

Thus the color order should be, if representing awakening:

Red->White->Black->Blue->Purple->Green

So the orbs lighting up don’t represent order of awakening.

What if it’s strength instead, with strongest to weakest? Or order of intelligence? Or order of dominion size (biggest to smallest)? Or even order of age (oldest to youngest)? There’s a dozen possibilities…

And I am liking the strength level or age concepts…

The blue orb could just as easily represent itself as water or ice. Dark blue does not automatically equal water, and neither does white/light blue automatically equal Ice. Another problem is that while Ice and water are represented separately by the Gods (Grenth and Lyssa), Elementalists themselves don’t really distinguish water and ice as separate elements on Tyria, so why would Dragons native to Tyria distinguish between them either? I can understand extraterrestrial beings trying to separate them. Even if Ice and Water are treated as separate elements to the Dragons, and that the white is Jormag and the Blue is Bubbles, it still wouldn’t violate the order they woke up…..

We weren’t ever specifically told that the Deep Sea Dragon woke up after Zhaitan did. He could have woke up before then and only gathered enough power to drive the krait, karka, largos, and quaggans nearer to shore later in time (and probably wiped out who knows what else). Whose to say that the dragon immediately wiped everything out and wasn’t at war with these races?

There’s indirect stuff saying that the Deep Sea Dragon woke up 50 years after Zhaitan and 50 Years before present day, but the cutscene could also be used as an indirect speculation that the Deep Sea Dragon actually woke up earlier than that.

It also makes more sense for the dragons to wake up when they are ready to wake up rather than every fifty years apart from each other (and even if you insist on the 50 year time, Primordus’s awakening was delayed by almost 50 years, which means that another dragon should have awakened around the same time he did unless by defeating the great destroyer, we delayed all of the dragons from awakening)(I can also argue that the reason it was 100 years between Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik is because Glint possibly did something to delay his awakening in the same way that we delayed Primordus’s awakening by defeating his champion)

Basically what I’m saying is that the Deep Sea Dragon could very possibly have woke up 3rd even if Tyrians understand Zhaitan as waking up 3rd, and that the Deep Sea Dragon may not necessarily be a ‘Water’ Dragon.

This would mean that the order is correct, and that the colors themselves are correct (I’m also saying that Mordremoth is the black orb, but lighting up as pale green, and Zhaitan is the dark nasty looking green)

Basically I’m saying this :::

Primordus(Red) -> Jormag[or DSD](Blue) -> DSD[Or Jormag](White) -> Zhaitan(Dark green) -> Kralkatorrik(Purple) -> Mordremoth(Black/Light green)

And that Zhaitan was the one who crashed into the center because that was the dragon we killed.

((Of course, I will admit that everything I just said falls apart because the last orb lit up and moved before the 4th orb crashed in the center, because we also directly know that Zhaitan was defeated before Mordremoth woke up. BrunoBRS’s incessant posting on every thread related to this might be right, that its just a lot of artistic liberty was taken and the cutscene means nothing.))((It also falls apart because, yeah…..the living story has been about Mordremoth, not Zhaitan, so that also makes no sense for Zhaitans orb to crash and merge.))((probably other stuff that makes it fall apart as well. but, its all just speculation….)

Leallax.1482:

You don’t know it’s all about Mordremoth.

The entire Living Story is about Mordremoth. There are vines all over Tyria now. Surely it could not be more obvious than that?

Leallax.1482:

The orbs seem to light up in the order the dragons awoke, except for Zhaitan/Mordremoth.

And the Deep Sea Dragon is also out of order.

Leallax.1482:

If we make it so the orb that crashed into the center was Zhaitan and the other is Mordremoth, then they light up in the correct order.

Yes if we go against what we know the orbs would logically represent, we can make any theory that doesn’t work, work anyway. But we know from the Infinity Coil reactor that black represents Zhaitan. I understand it is inconvenient that the orbs do not match the awakening of the dragons, but trying to use ducktape to make it work anyway, is not good practice.

Leallax.1482:

I read an interesting theory that all the dragons balance each other out (Primordius/Jormag = fire/ice, bubbles/Kralkatorrik = sea/dessert,

Why does Kralkatorrik represent the desert? Are dragons now categorized by their vacation destinations? If so, then I hope Kralkatorrik is not planning any other expeditions soon, or he may upset this fragile balance. Besides, his planning must be really poor, since the Crystal Desert is now a lush overgrown area. It’s no longer the barren wasteland it was in GW1.

“The Crystal Desert has changed drastically in the 250 years since the heroes saw these lands. After the Ascension of Kormir, Palawa Joko took his time rebuilding his forces and developing a new plan for conquering Elona. Rather than taking each province by force, he diverted the river Elon from Vabbi. The ensuing drought forced the Princes into submission and drastically weakened Kourna. This also had the unforeseen consequence of transforming the Crystal Desert into a lush, verdant region. "

Leallax.1482:

Mordremoth/Zhaitan = life/death)

Why would Mordremoth represent life? His minions, the Mordrem, look like animated skeletons covered in vines. They aren’t all that different from Zhaitan’s minion really.

Leallax.1482:

It’s not said anywhere that the cutscene is about Mordremoth, so we can’t really assume that it is just because he’s awake.

Yes we can. The entire story is about Mordremoth. We awoke him, which we saw in a cutscene. And this new cutscene ends with Mordremoth’s corruption spreading (vines) from the center orb. It is Mordremoth, however inconvenient.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Stirring of champions? But Glint stirred first! Purple should be first then.

I prefer age. Or strength. Those make more sense, and makes future plots more interesting.

that’s what i said >.>

i just don’t see the writers putting such out-of-plot, minor details in such a subtle way. it’s not lack of confidence in them, it’s thinking they want to get the story across more than they want to drop incredibly tiny bits of lore that don’t really give us anything to work with plot-wise. what would knowing the age or power level of the dragons change the story? at most, it’ll give us a predictable, pre-estabilished order of how to defeat them (lest we go “oh this one is weaker than the last”), and that kinda cuts the “where to next” suspense AND severely limits their freedom (“oh god we have to write jormag somehow into the story”)

Leallax.1482:

The orbs seem to light up in the order the dragons awoke, except for Zhaitan/Mordremoth.

It was Mordremoth. The question is whether the order is legitimate or not. Were it so, it would imply he should have woken up already but his awakening was delayed by some form or another – hence Scarlet actively seeking and finally finding a way to start everything in motion.

There’s no rule or law stating that dragons must wake up every 50 years. It’s only what the NPC historians can account for based on visual and here-say interpretation.

Ronin.7381:

There’s no rule or law stating that dragons must wake up every 50 years. It’s only what the NPC historians can account for based on visual and here-say interpretation.

False.

Why did the elder dragons awaken now, and nearly all at once?

By “nearly” you mean “once every fifty years or so over the past 250 years”. This is a lifetime in human terms, but an eyeblink in the history of the world. They are primordial powers that now are growing restive and unleashing their power on the world.

Why exactly are they waking up now? Unrevealed, but they are waking up hungry.

http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/09/02/guild-wars-2-interview/

Jeff Grubb himself said they awoke every 50 years or so. So it isn’t merely based on what “NPC historians can account for based on visual and here-say interpretation.”

And even then, the orbs cannot account awakening order, since we know Kralkatorrik was after Zhaitan, but here we have Kralkatorrik’s orb shining before Zhaitan’s.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

False.

No it’s not. There’re no accounts for the past cycle to suggest that this is the way it has always been. We only know in the span of 250 years, that each dragon that we are specifically aware of, have woken in 50, “or so”, years apart from each other. Furthermore, Mordremoth breaks that chain doesn’kitten

Jeff Grubb himself said they awoke every 50 years or so. So it isn’t merely based on what “NPC historians can account for based on visual and here-say interpretation.”

This doesn’t explain anything. As we make note, Mordremoth. Who either has awoken 7 years ahead of schedule or late if the interpretation of the ending cutscene is to be taken literally. So no, it isn’t a law or natural repeating process – it’s based on limited sources.

Reread that quote. Grubb is talking about within the past 250 years. He’s relaying to the current cycle in explaining the time leap from GW1 to GW2. As he said, 250 years is a long time in human terms but quite instant in the grand scheme of all things – so that’s a lot of history gaps that need filling in. Not that it’s a law or necessity, he doesn’t denounce the possibility of being coincidence.

And even then, the orbs cannot account awakening order, since we know Kralkatorrik was after Zhaitan, but here we have Kralkatorrik’s orb shining before Zhaitan’s.

I agree here. People are taking the orbs too literal and not for the artistic renditions that they are. Though at the same time they can be answered with a little ingenuity in assessing what is going on but that doesn’t quite clear up the inconsistencies, leading to more questions and speculation – likely the lack of answers that would solve everything at once, to follow.

Ronin.7381:

I agree here. People are taking the orbs too literal and not for the artistic renditions that they are.

Given that it is supposed to be depicting the Eternal Alchemy and a seemingly orderly system, it is expected that the lighting up of the orbs is a logical and not an artistic phenomenon.

Anyway, I had this brainstormy speculation that the order was to represent the scenario where none of the awakenings was delayed or brought forth. To put in a nutshell: if no event or person messed with the dragons’ sleeping habit.

Red -> Blue -> White -> Green -> Purple -> Black

Year 0 -> Year 50 -> Y100 -> Y150 -> Y200 -> Y250

Primordus stirred, but couldn’t rise due to the death of the Great Destroyer. That delayed his awakening by 50 years.

But why would another ED patiently wait out for his fiery kin to have 50 years in advance just because he played his cards wrong? Bubbles was the next to rise 50 years later, along with the heavy-sleeping Primo. Since we know absolutely nothing about him other than the fact that the largos, the krait, the karka, the quaggan, and other underwater species were displaced from their natural homes due to his influence, starting circa 50 years ago, it’s a genuine likelihood. Yes, I was among the first proponents of the theory that used this evidence to place his awakening between Zhaitan’s and Kralkatorrik’s, but what if he rose 150 years sooner, in the deepest abysses of the ocean and bid his time? After all, Jormag waited almost 150 years before he began his true war on the races (he did push the norn south, but I’d argue that was because he’d woken up right beneath them – my current speculation is that the Bottomless Pit in Jaga Moraine led to his tomb) and Zhaitan could only begin his invasions so soon because his army and breakfast was presented to him the moment he rose (otherwise, after the destruction of his armada in SoS, he took the slow approach again, and he needed another 70+ years to become a threat to the Tyrian mainland once more). So Bubbles consumed and prepared in the darkness only to strike from the depths all of a sudden 50 years ago.

In year 100, Jormag rose as planned.

In year 150, Mordremoth couldn’t wake: maybe the Pale Tree’s growing influence, the increscent Dream invading his mind and putting him back to sleep, foiled his stirring, or it was the druids themselves; having felt that the Maguuma was in danger, they acted and sacrificed their spirits to thwart Mordremoth.

On the other hand, Zhaitan could rise 100 years earlier. Why? I hate myself for this, but… ley lines! The Cataclysm affected him in no way, but we see Vizier Khilbron and the Lost Scrolls coated in tealish blue light as he spells the forbidden words. At the same time, Vialee (a former Orrian trapped in the Realm of Torment) spoke of a blinding light enveloping everything before the peninsula sank. Now I’m not sure what the Scrolls did exactly, but I strongly believe that the resulting geological calamity affected the ley line hub/system beneath Orr (and we know for a fact that the Source of Orr was such a powerful place of magic that it beckoned the human gods from across the Mists to come to Tyria), which could’ve easily resulted in a small stream being diverted straight to Zhaitan’s maw… he was sipping magic in coma, bringing his rise forth by a “meager” 100 years.

Kralkatorrik also rose as it was foretold in the grand scheme of this horrid cycle.

Then we have Mordremoth, who — according to this theory — is still in an induced coma due to the Dream or the deed of the druids. But here comes Ms Villain Sue, and tampers with a major ley line hub, effectively sending a flood of pure magical energy straight into the dragon’s face, which has the same affect on him as if ice-cold water was poured on a drunk sleeper having bad dreams — with the “small” exception that he drinks all that “water” and rises at full power instantly.

Wow… making a sensible, compelling, and truly loreful (not the McCoy loreful like the waypoint, calendar, and Scarlet’s alliances “explanations”) theory of the mess they usually leave behind is no small feat. I guess I’d be willing to write the story onwards.

Thalador.4218:

Given that it is supposed to be depicting the Eternal Alchemy and a seemingly orderly system, it is expected that the lighting up of the orbs is a logical and not an artistic phenomenon.

I can accept that. My whole take is that if we focus on every little detail we’re going to encounter inconsistencies so I would rather play it close and not jump to conclusions too quickly. Otherwise that to me raises hopes and I’ve been down that road before where you catch onto an idea so well that when you’re given the answer, you end up disappointed because it wasn’t what was expected.

Here’s lookin’ at you EoTN. :P

There’s some merit but then it again throws a cog out of the machine that claims the “rule of 50”. It would mean that Mord and Kral did not spawn they should have, so this whole every-50 years cannot be applied. I mean that’s only explanation I can think of to suggest what we see in the order in which they light up and move; something delayed these two. Intervention. Be it divine or accident.

Ronin.7381:

There’s some merit but then it again throws a cog out of the machine that claims the “rule of 50”. It would mean that Mord and Kral did not spawn they should have, so this whole every-50 years cannot be applied. I mean that’s only explanation I can think of to suggest what we see in the order in which they light up and move; something delayed these two. Intervention. Be it divine or accident.

mordremoth is only awake because he was forced awake by his minion. it’s not unlike the great destroyer in EotN, forcing an early awakening of their master to give them an edge, or whatever other reasoning there is. point is, there is nothing that says the “rule of 50”, as you put it, would be broken if not for artificial intervention.

Ronin.7381:

This doesn’t explain anything. As we make note, Mordremoth. Who either has awoken 7 years ahead of schedule or late if the interpretation of the ending cutscene is to be taken literally. So no, it isn’t a law or natural repeating process – it’s based on limited sources.

Reread that quote. Grubb is talking about within the past 250 years. He’s relaying to the current cycle in explaining the time leap from GW1 to GW2. As he said, 250 years is a long time in human terms but quite instant in the grand scheme of all things – so that’s a lot of history gaps that need filling in. Not that it’s a law or necessity, he doesn’t denounce the possibility of being coincidence.

Exactly, Jeff is referring to this cycle. This cycle, the Elder Dragons awoke 50 years from each other. Despite Thalador’s rather interesting theory that could account to the orbs being awakening order, Jeff’s statement remains thus:

This cycle, the Elder Dragons awoke 50 years (roughly) from each other.

Yes, it means that Mordremoth awoke out of time – being 43 years early (roughly).

Primordus awoke. 50 years later (roughly), Jormag awoke. 50 years later (roughly), Zhaitan awoke. 50 years later (roughly), the krait fled their homelands which match the description for where the DSD awoke (DSD = deepest part of the seas; krait = deepest trenches of the Unending Ocean). 50 years later (roughly), Kralktorrik awoke. 7 years later (exactly), Mordremoth awoke.

Primordus’ awakening was shown with the skritt and murrellow breaching the surface as well as the dwarves all going down to fight him under the Rite. Jormag’s awakening was known by the norn very soon. Zhaitan’s awakening was known by Cobiah Marriner as he saw the dragon awake (everyone else denied Zhaitan’s existence – thinking Jormag was one of a kind – until Port Stalwart was wiped out). Kralkatorrik’s awakening was known right away too.

There is no “interpretation” for their awakening dates; except the exact date of the DSD’s awakening. Unless there are two “deepest” parts of the waters of Tyria (which kind of means… one isn’t the deepest).

Ronin.7381:

There’s some merit but then it again throws a cog out of the machine that claims the “rule of 50”. It would mean that Mord and Kral did not spawn they should have, so this whole every-50 years cannot be applied. I mean that’s only explanation I can think of to suggest what we see in the order in which they light up and move; something delayed these two. Intervention. Be it divine or accident.

Either you mean “Mord or Kral” or just “Mord”. Kralkatorrik awoke 50 years after the heavily implied date of the DSD’s awakening, and 100 years after Zhaitan.

The situation is simple:

Either the Movement of the World is wrong – again – which makes it as full of lies as the History of Tyria as well as Jeff Grubb being a liar there (hey, out-of-game sources are “malleable” after all!), and something messed up both Zhaitan and Mordremoths’ awakening and we’re just wrong about the DSD’s awakening, or those orbs simply do not represent awakening.

I prefer the idea that it represents their birth/creation (oldest to youngest) or even their level of strength (with strongest to weakest).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Exactly, Jeff is referring to this cycle. This cycle, the Elder Dragons awoke 50 years from each other.

Ok in regards to the whole “Rule of 50”. I said there was no must to it, it’s based on what takes place and went on in this cycle. You called that assertion false but then you go off post what was posted above. I don’t understand, you tell me what is already known while trying to prove me wrong on what again?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There is no “interpretation” for their awakening dates; except the exact date of the DSD’s awakening. Unless there are two “deepest” parts of the waters of Tyria (which kind of means… one isn’t the deepest).

That’s exactly where the interpretation stems from. Based on observation. Within the past 250 years to now 99.9% of the species that exist within these eras have never seen an Elder Dragon. The 00.1% are those such as Dwarves, Seers, Mursaat, Forgotten, and the Jotun – none of which mention anything about a “Rule of 50.” It’s stated nowhere in game or in books that there is a vanguard for each dragon who comes out every 50 years and makes preparations for their master’s arrival. Only what we can infer on this current cycle, gives us any clue but there’s no guide-line or practice. Hence, we “interpret” their current actions to gain a better understanding.

No, what Grubb is saying, in trying to fill the gaps, is the attempt to give us a timeline. That timeline doesn’t define the Dragon’s nature because we haven’t been given any detail of past cycles having this exact pattern. That’s my point.

I mean already the numbers themselves are estimates. Because he’s not giving an exact number, no when he gave 50 and added “or so” he’s basically saying the number itself is undetermined. Rounding and all that jibberish, so again there’s no base line in nature to express that it’s anything more than observational studies and stories past down from generation to generation – which we all should know how the game of telephone works.

I prefer the idea that it represents their birth/creation (oldest to youngest) or even their level of strength (with strongest to weakest).

That’s fine… I guess? Speculators will speculate. I mean, I can’t tell you that you’re wrong and I certainly don’t have any other form of idea that could possibly contradict that. All I can do is shrug and say, “Cool.” Their origins on Tyria predate the Gods, that’s saying a lot in such a simple way.

Jormag had help from the Sons of Svanir just as Mordremoth had help from Scarlet…..

Deep Sea Dragon could have woke up at the same time as Jormag……

It seems most likely to me that the order is artistic license, or intentionally made to not sync up with awakenings to give us something to talk about. But if it does have a meaning, I like Konig’s idea that it’s their strength, particularly current strength:

- Primordus, awake the longest, has had the most time to absorb magic and artifacts, so it makes sense for him to be first.
- The DSD, while a more recent awakening, drove out the undersea races and has presumably been feasting on their artifacts, particularly Krait Obelisks.
- Jormag awoke before the DSD, but perhaps has had less magic/artifacts available for him to consume.
- Mordy is the most recent awakening but due to Scarlet’s magical protein boosters he has more magic power than he would otherwise.
- Kralkatorrik was almost killed by Destiny’s Edge; perhaps this weakened him to the point of being one of the weakest dragons at the moment.
- And finally Zhaitan has straight up been defeated, after we starved him of magic no less, so it makes sense for his power to be the weakest.

Just my 2c.

Ronin.7381:

Ok in regards to the whole “Rule of 50”. I said there was no must to it, it’s based on what takes place and went on in this cycle. You called that assertion false but then you go off post what was posted above. I don’t understand, you tell me what is already known while trying to prove me wrong on what again?

You said that the awakening of the Elder Dragons being every roughly 50 years was just the interpretations of NPCs.

This is not the case, they did awaken once every 50-odd years.

Ronin.7381:

That’s fine… I guess? Speculators will speculate. I mean, I can’t tell you that you’re wrong and I certainly don’t have any other form of idea that could possibly contradict that. All I can do is shrug and say, “Cool.” Their origins on Tyria predate the Gods, that’s saying a lot in such a simple way.

My point in that bit was that there’s really no reason to believe that the activation of the orbs relates to the order of awakening, especially since 4 out of 6 orbs are out of order to this awakening.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Leallax.1482:

The orbs seem to light up in the order the dragons awoke, except for Zhaitan/Mordremoth.

You mean, only Primordus and Kralkatorrik’s orbs shine in the placement they awoke (1st and 5th respectively). The order of orb shining is:

Red->Blue->White->Green->Purple->Black

Tying this to the CoE zone colors we get:

Primordus->DSD->Jormag->Mordremoth->Kralkatorrik->Zhaitan

However the order of dragon awakening was:

Primordus->Jormag->Zhaitan->DSD->Kralkatorrik->Mordremoth

Thus the color order should be, if representing awakening:

Red->White->Black->Blue->Purple->Green

So the orbs lighting up don’t represent order of awakening.

What if it’s strength instead, with strongest to weakest? Or order of intelligence? Or order of dominion size (biggest to smallest)? Or even order of age (oldest to youngest)? There’s a dozen possibilities…

And I am liking the strength level or age concepts…

I have been posting this in almost all threads that deal with this, but seeing I haven’t seen anyone pick up on it, I will repeat it here so maybe some more people can shed their light on it…

The vision: We see light coming from the center (white orb), basically tapping all the orbs as they light up. We ‘know’ from EotN that the Champion awakens b4 the actual Dragon does. We know from http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon_champion that these Champions are meant to do something to awaken the Dragon. Seeing they all eat magic, I were to assume it’s to prepare the Dragon’s Morning Coffee and some bacon ‘n eggs. So if we assume the hit from the center stirs the orb to awaken a champion, this champion than goes out to start a ’basic’ army and collects magic stuff. (this may even be represented by the orbs spinning around)

So lets look at the Orbs & Dragons (in the order of the Orbs & CoE colors):
- Primordus, delayed ‘50y’, but awoke non the less with a new champ, first to stir, first to awaken, well done Champ!

- Bubbles, stirred 2nd, but arose as 4th… well, I dunno, ‘we’ have uncovered various krait shards, not sure how many were left down there, and the Quaggan cute as they are, do not ‘come off’ like a very magically advanced race. I’m guessing, this Champion had a pretty hard time finding it’s magic artefacts… (this may also be due to competition from Zhaitan, see further below)

- Jormag, stirred 3rd but awoke as 2nd, we do not know what is up there, but the kodan strike me as a rather advanced magical race, even though their believes are still very tribal from a human perspective. Norn are somewhat similar. Anyways, he has the north pretty much to his own, well done Champ!

- Mordremoth, stirred 4th, but ohwmy awoke last, what happened there? I do not know what champ was supposed to be handling things here, but it sure messed up!

- Kralkatorrik, stirred 5th, but awoke 4th, not to bad, that’s about as good as Jormag’s champ did.

- Zhaitan, strirred last (6th), but ohwmy awoken as 3rd… (wo)man! You would almost get the impression that his Champ awoke in a location that was already filled with magical artefacts, some ‘vaults’ perhaps? or maybe his champ awoke on some magical capital? maybe both?! … also, as a corrupting dragon, his champ, be it minor corruptive, but amphibious. Maybe just had to swim across the bottom of the ocean, awaken the minion, whom simply carried the artefacts to his master… Well done Tequatl !!

et presto… fixed … ^^

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You said that the awakening of the Elder Dragons being every roughly 50 years was just the interpretations of NPCs.

This is not the case, they did awaken once every 50-odd years.

Because it is Interpretation in every sense of the word.

to give or provide the meaning of; explain; explicate; elucidate: to interpret the hidden meaning of a parable.

Based on four out of the six, studies infer that dragons wake on a 50 or so year cycle. That is not to say it is in their nature to wake up every single cycle, 50 years apart and that was what I was getting at.

My point in that bit was that there’s really no reason to believe that the activation of the orbs relates to the order of awakening, especially since 4 out of 6 orbs are out of order to this awakening.

I’m just as skeptical but if that was the point of which we were being exposed to, that would kind of tip the timeline over, no?