Guild Wars 2

Gets discussed a lot on the lore forums. Here’s one such discussion, you may be able to find more;

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/The-6-Elder-Dragons-and-the-6-Gods

Emiko.3217:

Just a thought and an interesting possible plot twist here.

Could the 6 gods actually be the 6 elder dragons? I mean, NPC’s have been saying how the spirits doesn’t seem to hear them.

Maybe they are going for the same plot twist that was in Castlevania Lords of Shadow (i.e. the Lords of Shadow were the the dark halves of the founders of the order the protagonist is a part of that were left behind when they ascended).

The problem with this theory is how often certain mantles of power of been passed to new gods (Abaddon > Kormir [who was a mortal in every sense of the word]/ Dhuum > Grenth) And then you have Menzies and Dhuum who still very much exist even if they are…contained. And Menzies, for all his mystery, is still very much god like in power as we saw in the Realm of Torment and the Underworld with vast legions of shadowy minions. So, in actuality there are eight god like beings currently in existence that we know of, possibly more that just never had the motivation to make a power play in any realm a mortal can visit.

Jinn Kazuma.2163:

The problem with this theory is how often certain mantles of power of been passed to new gods (Abaddon > Kormir [who was a mortal in every sense of the word]/ Dhuum > Grenth) And then you have Menzies and Dhuum who still very much exist even if they are…contained. And Menzies, for all his mystery, is still very much god like in power as we saw in the Realm of Torment and the Underworld with vast legions of shadowy minions. So, in actuality there are eight god like beings currently in existence that we know of, possibly more that just never had the motivation to make a power play in any realm a mortal can visit.

But are menzies and dhuum considered elder gods?

No, they’re not one in the same. In GW1 we find that there is active communication between humans and the Gods. In Nightfall we meet a god (Abaddon) which we kill. On top of that we can directly observe at least two Elder Dragons (sleeping) in GW1 (Primordus & Kralkatorrik) in the EoTN expansion.
The active communication between humans and gods is through active communication with avatars of the gods and different servers gaining the favor of the gods through battles essentially hosted by the gods in the Mists. The dragons are entirely different entities.

Conflating similar numbers with being linked in some way can cause a number of different ideas to emerge; there are six major races with the means to interact with the world in large numbers: Tengu, Humans, Charr, Asura, Sylvari, and Norn. Someone could equate these races with the gods or dragons as well.
Or even better we could say that the new worm boss south of LA has three heads so each head must be related to one of the three Orders of Tyria.
Numbers do not make things related.

I don’t know if they are the same, but there does seem to be some overlap in terms of abilities. Maybe they draw power from the same sources, like there are six fundamental forces of magic?

Anyway, likely linkages from Dragon to God to Race to Element:
Zhaitan – Melandru – Sylvari – Life/Growth
Primordus – Balthazar – Charr – Fire
Kraalkatorik – Dwayna – Asura – Air
Jormag – Grenth – Norn – Ice/Death
DSD – Lyssa – Krytan Humans – Water/Illusion/Duality
Mordremoth? – Kormir – ? – Truth/Secrets

Please, this dead horse has been beaten to death. Please refer to the above linked thread, and let unsleeping dragons lay.

aspirine.6852:

But are menzies and dhuum considered elder gods?

Unsure about Menzies, but Dhuum predates Grenth my quite a bit if I am remembering my GW lore.

Menzies was a half brother to Balthazar, but not a god.

you could also see it this way, every god has a mortal form and the dragons are the version of theirs.
could also be some kind of condition, a god (in GW lore) needs to shed his/her evil side, the dragons are their evil side in the mortal world.

Except the gods, minus kormir, are not FROM Tyria. So again, this theory has been discussed, and debunked, many times. Sadly the forum search feature doesn’t work properly, so please refer to the link posted above.

Edusd.7893:

Except the gods, minus kormir, are not FROM Tyria. So again, this theory has been discussed, and debunked, many times. Sadly the forum search feature doesn’t work properly, so please refer to the link posted above.

tyria is the name of the world, even canthan characters are from tyria.

I’m aware. Kormir wasn’t Canthan anyway, she was frim Istan. My point still stands. All gods with the exception of Kormir, where from a different world.

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

Numbers do not make things related.

I would agree if it weren’t for the fact that each of these dragons shares some sort of element or trait with the six gods

Baltazar = Primordius
Dyana =Jormag
Lyssa = kralkitorix
Grenth = Zitahn
Melandru = Mordramoth(jungle Elder Dragon)
Abbadon = bubbles (Deep Sea Elder Dragon)

you have to admit that they are related to a degree.

Did you forget that Abaddon is dead, Kormir assumed most of his power, but Lyssa took the element of water? Grenth is ice, not Dwayna…it goes on. So…still, my point stands, numbers are really about the only similarity.

Edusd.7893:

Did you forget that Abaddon is dead, Kormir assumed most of his power, but Lyssa took the element of water? Grenth is ice, not Dwayna…it goes on. So…still, my point stands, numbers are really about the only similarity.

Well seeing that kormir wasnt a god to begin with I dont see why she even matters.i say jormag for dyana because Grenth is the god of death so why wouldn’t zhaitan go with him . and abbadon was water to begin with. not trying to encite needless nerd rage all im saying is that the dragons are similar or reflect the gods. Kind of like the facets in gw1 eotn.

Bobby.3721:

Well seeing that kormir wasnt a god to begin with I dont see why she even matters.

It matters because neither Kormir, Grenth, or Abaddon himself were gods to begin with. Kormir took Abaddon’s mantle, Abaddon took it from an unnamed predecessor, and Grenth took his from Dhuum. So you cant solely discredit Kormir, because she doesn’t fit your theory, for not being a god to begin with. That applies to other gods as well.

Plus, this whole theory got debunked during the Personal Story, during the Cathedral of Silence story.

Priestess Rhie: I am Grenth’s servant, and we have survived many dangers to speak with you, Please, hear us?
The Seventh Reaper: I see in your heart that you are no stranger to Death. Very well. I will hear you out, but in return you will kill in Grenth’s name.
The Seventh Reaper: The keeper of this shrine has fallen to Zhaitan. Grenth wishes him returned, but I am too weak to perform the task. Destroy the keeper, and I will aswer your questions.

Grenth is still active, and he was upset that Zhaitan stole one of his dead priests to serve him.

There is certainly no nerd rage going on here, with me at least, sorry if it seems otherwise. Once upon a time I entertained similar ideas, even about aspects pulling apart and re-coellessing into the forms of the dragons with pieces of various god in the mix of each….but as pointed out above, Grenth still lives, so that kinda kills any theory involving them being the same entities. Also, on a side note, Dwayna and Melandru are the only 2 not stated, so far, in lore as having had a predecessor. Balthazar took the mantle from his father. So, again, no rage, its just a pointless argument.

Bobby.3721:

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

Numbers do not make things related.

I would agree if it weren’t for the fact that each of these dragons shares some sort of element or trait with the six gods

Baltazar = Primordius
Dyana =Jormag
Lyssa = kralkitorix
Grenth = Zitahn
Melandru = Mordramoth(jungle Elder Dragon)
Abbadon = bubbles (Deep Sea Elder Dragon)

you have to admit that they are related to a degree.

I had come to a similar thought line. Although, since Kormir replaced Abbadon, she would be Bubbles god facet. Dhumm would have been Zaihtan, but Grenth overthrew him.

Additionally, both prophecies and eotn represented the facets of the gods as dragons. Could be a coincidence though…

While Dhumm and Menzies are both gods, they aren’t ‘reigning’ gods, like the current 6. Perhaps that has something to do with it. Of course, we don’t have anything that says there aren’t more dragons either. The only ones that might know how many dragons there actually are, are either dead or missing (Glint, the gods, the Forgotten, etc).

Edit: Incoming randomness. Here’s a thought to chew on. What if the gods get their powers from the dragons? Thus, with the dragons waking up, they pull those ‘borrowed’ powers back and as such the gods go poof… (Like I said, it was random)

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

While Dhumm and Menzies are both gods, they aren’t ‘reigning’ gods, like the current 6. Perhaps that has something to do with it. Of course, we don’t have anything that says there aren’t more dragons either. The only ones that might know how many dragons there actually are, are either dead or missing (Glint, the gods, the Forgotten, etc).

Edit: Incoming randomness. Here’s a thought to chew on. What if the gods get their powers from the dragons? Thus, with the dragons waking up, they pull those ‘borrowed’ powers back and as such the gods go poof… (Like I said, it was random)

While Dhuum is an ex-god, Menzies was never considered one. I don’t think they ever said what exactly he was, other than Balthazar’s evil half-brother. If I had to personally guess, I’m thinking he’s probably a half-god, like Grenth was before he claimed Dhuum’s powers and became a full god.

As for the randomness, the Six aren’t native to Tyria. We really don’t know where they, or the human race, came from other than some other possible world in the Mists. While the Elder Dragons have been going through their cycles for thousands and thousands of years, the Six (and humans) only showed up sometime after the Elder Dragons last went into hibernation. Godly powers fully functional.

Emiko.3217:

Just a thought and an interesting possible plot twist here.

Could the 6 gods actually be the 6 elder dragons? I mean, NPC’s have been saying how the spirits doesn’t seem to hear them.

After reading one of the recent lore interviews here on the forums, I’m pretty certain the gods have nothing to do with the dragons. The gods also came to Tyria after the dragons went to sleep thousands of years ago.

" Q: Are the Six [gods] really gone or not? Their power is still very much present. Players can call upon the gods’ power with prayers, NPC priests can summon Reapers of Grenth etc., and their statues are still stuffed with energy. So if they left, why are their power still here?

Jeff Grubb: The human gods still exist, and their power is still felt within Tyria. However, they have pulled back into the mists, leaving the humans to stand (or fall) on their own merits. There has been a tendency for the human gods to, um, meddle with their worshippers a bit much, and in the wake of the final battle of Abaddon, they have been trying to cut back. Also, the destruction of the big A and his replacement with Kormir in the Pantheon resolved one of their ties with physical contact with Tyria. So there are ties, but you just can’t ring them up to take on the Elder Dragons. "

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dolyak-Express-Jan-10-2014/page/3#post3545340

Erukk.1408:

While Dhuum is an ex-god, Menzies was never considered one. I don’t think they ever said what exactly he was, other than Balthazar’s evil half-brother. If I had to personally guess, I’m thinking he’s probably a half-god, like Grenth was before he claimed Dhuum’s powers and became a full god.

True, the lore never said one way or another if Menzies was technically a god. Full, half, or otherwise. Since Balth is a ‘full god’ and Menzies is his half brother, one would assume that he’s at least a demi-god. That doesn’t make him ‘not’ a god, just means he’s not one of the ruling 6. Just as Grenth was not originally one of the ruling 6.

As for the randomness, the Six aren’t native to Tyria. We really don’t know where they, or the human race, came from other than some other possible world in the Mists. While the Elder Dragons have been going through their cycles for thousands and thousands of years, the Six (and humans) only showed up sometime after the Elder Dragons last went into hibernation. Godly powers fully functional.

Yes, they come from the Mists supposedly. The whole ‘they brought the human race’ is something that’s kind of up for debate based on some of the inconsistencies in the lore. It does’t completely rule out the dragon’s having an affect on their powers though. The gods came to the world after one cycle, left before the next. Perhaps the dragons’ rising causes enough interference that it negates their ability to reach their followers from the mists, in a sense making them go poof. Although, we do seem to be able to access the underworld on occassion…just not Grenth. Makes for some interesting pondering.

We don’t really know if the gods came and went at other times because we don’t have the complete history of the world. Even the older races have history that they have lost, and even that would only go back so far. The only ones that might know might be the Forgotten and they haven’t made an appearance in this game as yet.

Still, like I said, it was random. Lots of holes in it, but hey it was fun to poke at in my boredness.

Well their aesthetics sure links to the elder dragons even the color.

Emiko.3217:

Just a thought and an interesting possible plot twist here.

Could the 6 gods actually be the 6 elder dragons? I mean, NPC’s have been saying how the spirits doesn’t seem to hear them.

No, not at the moment. If you read the GW wiki you can read more about the history of the human gods.

There is a theory that the Gods may have just been tapping into the power of the dragons themselves, thus their similar abilities, etc. But as far as we know at the moment they are different entities. The gods were much more human like at one point.

I think there is a connection between the dragons and the gods, but not in the way that you are implying.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

True, the lore never said one way or another if Menzies was technically a god. Full, half, or otherwise. Since Balth is a ‘full god’ and Menzies is his half brother, one would assume that he’s at least a demi-god. That doesn’t make him ‘not’ a god, just means he’s not one of the ruling 6. Just as Grenth was not originally one of the ruling 6.

No. You might be a half/demi-god, but that doesn’t make you a god. I think of it like from the Greek mythologies. There were numerous demi-gods running around, but that does in no way make them actual gods. They might get special powers or abilities from their godly parents, but they didn’t in no way inherit the full god status.

To be a god in Tyria, of the Six anyway, is that you have to have the “power” of one. What this totally is, is unclear, but it seems to be separate from the gods themselves. It lasts after their death, can be taken/given from one entity to another, and it contains the knowledge from the previous holder.

Yes, they come from the Mists supposedly. The whole ‘they brought the human race’ is something that’s kind of up for debate based on some of the inconsistencies in the lore.

It’s been WoG’ed that they aren’t native.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Angel-McCoy-Interview/page/3#post2821776

> Humans (including Canthan humans) were brought to Tyria (from…no spoilers!). They are not native to Tyria and did not come with much magic of their own. From a human perspective and oral tradition (that can get warped over time), they say the gods were giving them magic, but the reality was that the dragons had gone back to sleep, and the gods felt it was safe to begin returning magic stored in the Bloodstone to Tyria.

It does’t completely rule out the dragon’s having an affect on their powers though. The gods came to the world after one cycle, left before the next. Perhaps the dragons’ rising causes enough interference that it negates their ability to reach their followers from the mists, in a sense making them go poof. Although, we do seem to be able to access the underworld on occassion…just not Grenth. Makes for some interesting pondering.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dolyak-Express-Jan-10-2014/page/3#post3545340

Q: Are the Six [gods] really gone or not? Their power is still very much present. Players can call upon the gods’ power with prayers, NPC priests can summon Reapers of Grenth etc., and their statues are still stuffed with energy. So if they left, why are their power still here?

Jeff Grubb: The human gods still exist, and their power is still felt within Tyria. However, they have pulled back into the mists, leaving the humans to stand (or fall) on their own merits. There has been a tendency for the human gods to, um, meddle with their worshippers a bit much, and in the wake of the final battle of Abaddon, they have been trying to cut back. Also, the destruction of the big A and his replacement with Kormir in the Pantheon resolved one of their ties with physical contact with Tyria. So there are ties, but you just can’t ring them up to take on the Elder Dragons.

We don’t really know if the gods came and went at other times because we don’t have the complete history of the world. Even the older races have history that they have lost, and even that would only go back so far. The only ones that might know might be the Forgotten and they haven’t made an appearance in this game as yet.

Still, like I said, it was random. Lots of holes in it, but hey it was fun to poke at in my boredness.

Possible, but without further information, we can only speculate.

Zhaneel.9208:

No, not at the moment. If you read the GW wiki you can read more about the history of the human gods.

There is a theory that the Gods may have just been tapping into the power of the dragons themselves, thus their similar abilities, etc. But as far as we know at the moment they are different entities. The gods were much more human like at one point.

I think there is a connection between the dragons and the gods, but not in the way that you are implying.

The only time, that we know of, that the gods tapped into an Elder Dragon’s power was when they modified the Bloodstone, and they unknowingly tapped into Zhaitan’s power.

There is no link between the dragons and the gods. Whatsoever. This topic has been discussed to death on the lore forums so I’m not going to go into depth on how ridiculous it is here – but seriously. Just no.

Also Erukk the power is not actually separate from the gods. If Kormir had not absorbed Abaddons power (which was released when we defeated him) then it would have torn the world apart. She destroyed his essence when she absorbed the power – but it was still very much him that she absorbed. So you can’t just go around transferring power – we did have the blessing of the avatars of the gods.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Also Erukk the power is not actually separate from the gods. If Kormir had not absorbed Abaddons power (which was released when we defeated him) then it would have torn the world apart. She destroyed his essence when she absorbed the power – but it was still very much him that she absorbed. So you can’t just go around transferring power – we did have the blessing of the avatars of the gods.

Separate in the sense that a god’s power can be taken from him or her without resulting in death. Like in the case of Grenth taking Dhuum’s power. Grenth might have absorbed Dhuum’s god powers, but he still seems, by in large, whole. Enough to yell at us in all caps anyway, and still powerful enough to pose a threat in the Underworld.

Erukk.1408:

No. You might be a half/demi-god, but that doesn’t make you a god. I think of it like from the Greek mythologies. There were numerous demi-gods running around, but that does in no way make them actual gods. They might get special powers or abilities from their godly parents, but they didn’t in no way inherit the full god status.

To be a god in Tyria, of the Six anyway, is that you have to have the “power” of one. What this totally is, is unclear, but it seems to be separate from the gods themselves. It lasts after their death, can be taken/given from one entity to another, and it contains the knowledge from the previous holder.

My point was that there wasn’t anything saying definitely that he wasn’t a god either. At least not that I had found. Half or otherwise, all we know is that he isn’t a ‘ruling god’ (not 1 of the 6) and that he’s the half brother of Balthazar with designs on stealing his realm.

It’s been WoG’ed that they aren’t native.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Angel-McCoy-Interview/page/3#post2821776

> Humans (including Canthan humans) were brought to Tyria (from…no spoilers!). They are not native to Tyria and did not come with much magic of their own. From a human perspective and oral tradition (that can get warped over time), they say the gods were giving them magic, but the reality was that the dragons had gone back to sleep, and the gods felt it was safe to begin returning magic stored in the Bloodstone to Tyria.

Interesting hadn’t seen that post. Although, it does point out that while humans came to Tyria from elsewhere and the credit is given to the gods, such oral histories can be distorted over time. It’s possible that the gods didn’t bring humanity to tyria after all. We don’t really know for sure, only that they got here. I didn’t say humans were native. I said there was debate that the gods brought them, which your quoted post sort of supports that plausibility. Now, it’s true Angel could have meant that the humans were indeed brought by their gods, which is what a lot of us assume; however with no direct actual confirmation, it does leave ‘brought to’ open to other plausible options too.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dolyak-Express-Jan-10-2014/page/3#post3545340

Q: Are the Six [gods] really gone or not? Their power is still very much present. Players can call upon the gods’ power with prayers, NPC priests can summon Reapers of Grenth etc., and their statues are still stuffed with energy. So if they left, why are their power still here?

Jeff Grubb: The human gods still exist, and their power is still felt within Tyria. However, they have pulled back into the mists, leaving the humans to stand (or fall) on their own merits. There has been a tendency for the human gods to, um, meddle with their worshippers a bit much, and in the wake of the final battle of Abaddon, they have been trying to cut back. Also, the destruction of the big A and his replacement with Kormir in the Pantheon resolved one of their ties with physical contact with Tyria. So there are ties, but you just can’t ring them up to take on the Elder Dragons.

I wasn’t saying that the gods were completely gone. I was pointing out that while we seemed to be able to semi-access their realm (calling up the spirits, speaking to one of Grenth’s reapers), we just couldn’t access the gods themselves. We know from the personal story that the gods are still around, at the very least Grenth is. His reaper tells us point blank “Grenth is not happy”

Possible, but without further information, we can only speculate.

Yup. Unfortunately speculating sometimes keeps me awake at night.

Erukk.1408:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Also Erukk the power is not actually separate from the gods. If Kormir had not absorbed Abaddons power (which was released when we defeated him) then it would have torn the world apart. She destroyed his essence when she absorbed the power – but it was still very much him that she absorbed. So you can’t just go around transferring power – we did have the blessing of the avatars of the gods.

Separate in the sense that a god’s power can be taken from him or her without resulting in death. Like in the case of Grenth taking Dhuum’s power. Grenth might have absorbed Dhuum’s god powers, but he still seems, by in large, whole. Enough to yell at us in all caps anyway, and still powerful enough to pose a threat in the Underworld.

That’s a little different. A God may be able to take some of another gods power, but it is highly unlikely that anything other than a god can do so without first killing them. Even then that isn’t something that can just happen under normal circumstances – we fought a still imprisoned Abaddon so it’s not like his power was fully regained.

You must be new here.

Emiko.3217:

Just a thought and an interesting possible plot twist here.

Could the 6 gods actually be the 6 elder dragons? I mean, NPC’s have been saying how the spirits doesn’t seem to hear them.

… more likely their nemeses, imho.

And the NPC’s say “don’t often answer.” Implying they sometimes do

The gods came from somewhere in the mists, were not native to Tyria, had been on Tyria only as long as humanity (at least Tyrian humans, Canthans may have been around for longer), and appeared to have absolutely NO knowledge of the Dragons.

I DOUBT they would have built Arah on top of Zhaitan if they had known he was there and known what he was.

There is no direct relationship between the gods and the dragons.