Guild Wars 2

Ive always had my suspicions about Kryta’s queen and her motives, aswell as her identity, but now im beginning to suspect those things are falling into place more clearly.

I used to think Jennah was just a puppet queen put into place as a temp, a powerless woman that had no real strength…

But I was clearly wrong, and now I think I know why…

Jennah is Lyssa in disguise

I still believe Jennah is not the true Queen of Kryta, a standin, but perhaps we are seeing an age where the gods silence is because the gods have been with us all along. They were at our side the entire time, helping us, where they could in their own small subtle ways.

In season 2, I remember that the Priory finds an amulet that “reveals the true Krytan Heir”. Now ive had a theory that the heir in question may be Kasmeer Meade, given Anise and Jennahs fondness for her. This would explain why Anise is trying so very hard to keep control of people.

If Jennah is one aspect, Anise is the other, aka: Lys and Ilya

This explains why Anise is a more ruthless part of the deviousness of Lyssa, more wrathful and playful all in the same nature. While Jennah is more proper and prononced, representing the inner half of beauty contrasting her sister’s outter beauty in contrast.

How did Balthy get the mirror?

Most likely, he stole it, during the confusion back in Season 1 with Scarlet he could have stolen it while she was causing a stirr in the reach. This would have given him a chance to escape with it, and begin his plans for a suitable disguise. Another possiblity is that due to the twin goddesses being on the mortal world, they were simply unable to stop him going into her realm to steal her mirror for himself.

How else does a tinfoil theory like this make sense?

Well, considering how utterly overpowered Jennah is when she used her true mesmer energies no “human” even a versed one, even the best of Mesmers could have ever hoped to create a forcefield that powerful and destroy the mantle so easily. Considering that, I would say Jennah is clearly on a whole other level, a divine, level of power. And unlike Xera who was empowered by bloodstone in the stronghold. She had “nothing” to give her that level of magical prowess, further cementing there being a suspicious amount of things around Jennah.

No matter the outcome, Jennah is clearly not who she says she is

One can be a powerful queen, and a leader, but one cannot be a democrat willing to murder so coldly. Jennah is clearly hiding something, something inside she cant tell others or wont.

Either way…. theres something about that girl that just isnt right.

This isn’t the first time this theory has come up.

To summarise my response:

Personally, I can’t help feel that the real reason this theory is coming up is because in Guild Wars 2 we’ve grown so used to humans being the cosmic punching bag that when we do see a human doing something impressive, people start thinking that the only explanation is that she’s not human. Imagine if an asura had done this? We’d assume that said hypothetical asura was just activating some sort of device, right?

How do we know Jennah doesn’t have such a device? Humans have shown in the past that they have access to, and even the ability to create, magical devices that rival those of the asura. Off the top of my head, there’s the teleporter between Nolani and Drasciir, Stormcaller, God’s Vengeance (at Fort Aspenwood) and on a smaller scale, the obelisks. In fact, unlike asura technology, human magical artifacts generally don’t look like they’re obviously magical, so Jennah could have a magical force-field generating device hidden in plain sight. That whole central dome could have been enchanted to be a giant shield generator all along for all we know. There have been threads in the past that have expressed the opinion that Divinity’s Reach is terribly designed for a fortress-city – however, if the physical defences are reinforced by magical defences built into the architecture, that changes the equation. Even without a specific device, the Scepter of Orr is still unaccounted for, but last we knew it was in the possession of an ally of the royal family…

Given that Jennah said that she had ‘made preparations’, this is not something she just pulled up on a whim. Having enchantments put in place by her coterie of mesmers (if Jennah and Anise don’t control, or at least heavily influence, the Mesmer Collective, I would be very surprised) that she could trigger on short notice would explain her being able to do something that one person unaided would not be able to do. In fact, it’s possible that the ‘city bubble’ wasn’t something that was achieved and maintained by mesmer magic alone: while it initially appears purple, when you look at it from Lake Doric, there are patches of mesmer purple and guardian blue. It may be a cooperative effort of all the mesmers and guardians in the Shining Blade, with Jennah starting it off, and her supporters being ready to reinforce it with their own power once she did. (There is precedence for multiple casters cooperating to generate and maintain a shield in Sea of Sorrows.)

Finally, are we really sure that the dome is outside the realm of what an exceptionally powerful mortal can do? Sure, ‘city dome’ isn’t in the list of skills available to player character mesmers, but neither is ‘dispel the Nightmare Tower screen’. The PC is one of the most potent fighters in Tyria in small-group situations, but the PC is not the best at everything. If you go through Tyria’s history, there are plenty of cases of humans performing impressive feats of magic even in periods where magic was much less powerful than it is today: Koro Sagewind, Tahmu, and many of the heroes in Tahnnakai Temple, for instance. One could possibly even include some of the champions we see in dungeons, bounties, and dotted around the map. As a member of the royal line, in fact, it is Jennah’s hereditary has granted her above-average magical potential: there is precedent to royal blood being magically significant (namely, Shiro needing to claim the lifeblood of a member of the Canthan imperial family to regain his physical body).

Therefore, I reject the idea that the only explanation for Jennah’s power is that she is not human. There are three alternative, and I think, more likely explanations: First, that she used a magical device. Second, that the dome was a group effort, and we just didn’t see her support coterie. Third, that some exceptional humans simply are capable of pulling off great feats, and this is just the first time we’ve seen it happening onscreen rather than reading about it in histories. Or it could even be a combination of two or three of the above.

Or maybe Lyssa is really disguised as Shadow; infusing Jennah with her magic every time she purrs and rubs against her leg.

That would explain why Balthazar didn’t come to Divinity’s Reach to get his followers.

Well before episode 5 I said that we have not any proofs that Jennah and Anise could be Lyssa, now we have some hints who can say that they are truly Lyssa. Anise and Jennah are freaking amazing mesmers!

Weird situations

Anise- used her clone in Party Politics- maybe nothing special, but this clone was talking to us (didn’t know that clones can talk…. at least we mesmers have not that power, so it makes Anise special)
Anise- in Personal Story she could change us as bandits I think. That shows really advanced magic. (McGonagall would be proud!)
Anise- in World Summit- really weird that she changed herself into Sylvari…. I don’t know the Pale Tree would like this. That was weird.

Jennah- in Caudecus’ Manor- she used really powerful shield, who could protect her from any attack- it’s not normal.
Jennah- in World Summit she did the same thing- this shield protects her from anything, perhaps even from Dragon’s power- this is a theory, but if yes- that would show that Jennah is more than Queen.
Jennah- in Queen’s Jubilee- she was giving a speech, and she fell and suddenly it appeared as the clone… Weird as hell.
Jennah- in Meeting of Ministers- this giantic shield is just beyond everything—- now I am realising that she protected THE WHOLE CITY! Lol.
Jennah- during the confrontation with Estelle she killed 3 White Mantle with one shot!!! That was really weird.
Jennah and the commander- we get a really weird “hint” in Episode 5, let me copy this dialogue:

Queen Jennah: That looks like one, but it’s actually the Krytan Spiderwort. It’ll bloom soon, and its petals give you the most luscious dyes.
Queen Jennah: It’s my favorite flower. It hides its true potential from most and then blossoms into something great. Happy hunting, Commander.

Why does she like this bloom? “It hides its true potential from most and then blossoms into something great”?!

Lol.

Or the 2nd one:

Queen Jennah: I never want to take up arms against one of my subjects, but…I think I might be quite suited for your lifestyle!
Commander: I’ll save a spot for you in Dragon’s Watch if you ever decide to step down.

Lol- as queen? That sounds weird, because giving proposition to the queen to step into fight is weird, even if Commander was joking (I doubt it).

Well, I have to admit that Anise and Jennah are weird and are really really powerful. But does it mean they are Lyssa?? Well maybe we will find it out soon? Don’t know.

And btw he could steal the mirror from Divinity’s Reach, because “Lazarus” avoided the whole security system in Tarir!!! So why could not he hack to the palace?

And it’s pretty good that Kasmeer went away. Even if Jory wouldn’t be injured by Balthazar I am sure she would go to the Palace anyway.

Kasmeer is the connection between Kryta and the Commander, now she is “Lady”, so she got back her noble status. She is probably really powerful person in Divinity’s Reach now. And she did lot of things to protect Kryta and Tyria.

Something off topic now:

Episode 5 opened a lot of possibilities where Episode 6- the final one- will take us:
1)Hoelbrak/Far Shiverpeaks
2)Tarir/Aurene’s Chamber
3)the 1st location in the place where expansion will take us (Crystal Desert? Isles of Janthir?)
4)Divinity’s Reach- to say that a god is back and check what is going on with Kasmeer (she just came back)
5)Rata Novus- check what’s going on with Taimi, Marjory.
6)Black Citadel- check what’s going on with Rytlock. seems that the commander didn’t even talk about him in previous episodes, what the heck is going on with him?

Rytlock is probably the most epic character. I want him back in the end of LS3!

I don’t think talking clones and mesmeric disguises are anything special, actually.

The latter is something we actually see a few times in the open world, granted by someone who doesn’t appear to be anything special other than just a mesmer. For the most recent example, the Fort Evennia heart, but there are other examples as well. Wouldn’t surprise me if, now that they’re introducing profession-specific things into story instances, we will at some stage have our own characters do that.

Regarding the former… we’re able to create clones that can cast spells that, while not particularly damaging directly, can make people bleed and suffer other maladies. Making a clone talk is probably not actually that difficult – it’s just not in the mechanics for our characters because, well, why would it be? A similar observation applies to Jennah’s clone at the Jubilee.

Keep in mind that the skills available to us normally are all combat-focused: what we can do as PCs is emphatically NOT the limit of what certain branches of magic are capable of. In some cases, it is shown that a particular spellcaster has an ability that would probably be overpowered to give to the PC at all – there is one point where Magister Sieran (an elementalist) flies under her own magical power, for instance.

When it comes to Jennah’s shields: NPCs seem to be able to generate more powerful shields than the PCs for reasons of plot. Story mode Citadel of Flames, for instance, has Logan single-handedly generating a shield that’s able to block a steady stream of rolling boulders from a superpowered Flame Legion imperator. While that shield covered a smaller area than the ‘city dome’, it possibly came under more pressure, since the White Mantle seemed to have given up on attacking Divinity’s Reach directly after the city dome went up.

Logan is very clearly a mortal human, yet Jennah’s city dome is not actually that much different except in area covered… and as noted in my previous post, she could easily have had help.

You can explain epic-scale feats with the effort of unknown group or device, but you’ll have hard time motivating that. What story purpose do they serve? Why show us an epic feat in the first place, if it has a pretty mundane explanation?

Feanor.2358:

You can explain epic-scale feats with the effort of unknown group or device, but you’ll have hard time motivating that. What story purpose do they serve? Why show us an epic feat in the first place, if it has a pretty mundane explanation?

1) Because, having known the mundane reasons why Jennah could pull off such a feat for years, the writers didn’t consider it to be that epic.

2) Because ArenaNet did not want to have to deal with the complexities they did with Lion’s Arch – again - and needed a reason for the White Mantle to be unable to simply bombard Divinity’s Reach into rubble.

3) Because we were not the people who were intended to draw conclusions – Logan was.

4) Because the writers realised how much they’d overcompensated in making sure that humanity didn’t hog the spotlight in GW2, and coming into what is looking like it might be a more human-oriented storyline, they wanted to remind the players that humans were capable of being more than redshirts and victims.

Like I said, if an asura had done this, we would not be batting an eyelid.

Also, a giant feedback bubble encompassing Divinity’s Reach makes for good cinematic spectacle… Especially when they put it in the trailer.

Sometimes things are made solely for the player sitting on the other side of the monitor, rather than for reasons within the lore/scope of the in-game-world.

Arden.7480:

That would explain why Balthazar didn’t come to Divinity’s Reach to get his followers.

Well before episode 5 I said that we have not any proofs that Jennah and Anise could be Lyssa, now we have some hints who can say that they are truly Lyssa. Anise and Jennah are freaking amazing mesmers!

Weird situations

Anise- used her clone in Party Politics- maybe nothing special, but this clone was talking to us (didn’t know that clones can talk…. at least we mesmers have not that power, so it makes Anise special)
Anise- in Personal Story she could change us as bandits I think. That shows really advanced magic. (McGonagall would be proud!)
Anise- in World Summit- really weird that she changed herself into Sylvari…. I don’t know the Pale Tree would like this. That was weird.

Jennah- in Caudecus’ Manor- she used really powerful shield, who could protect her from any attack- it’s not normal.
Jennah- in World Summit she did the same thing- this shield protects her from anything, perhaps even from Dragon’s power- this is a theory, but if yes- that would show that Jennah is more than Queen.
Jennah- in Queen’s Jubilee- she was giving a speech, and she fell and suddenly it appeared as the clone… Weird as hell.
Jennah- in Meeting of Ministers- this giantic shield is just beyond everything—- now I am realising that she protected THE WHOLE CITY! Lol.
Jennah- during the confrontation with Estelle she killed 3 White Mantle with one shot!!! That was really weird.
Jennah and the commander- we get a really weird “hint” in Episode 5, let me copy this dialogue:

Queen Jennah: That looks like one, but it’s actually the Krytan Spiderwort. It’ll bloom soon, and its petals give you the most luscious dyes.
Queen Jennah: It’s my favorite flower. It hides its true potential from most and then blossoms into something great. Happy hunting, Commander.

Why does she like this bloom? “It hides its true potential from most and then blossoms into something great”?!

Lol.

Or the 2nd one:

Queen Jennah: I never want to take up arms against one of my subjects, but…I think I might be quite suited for your lifestyle!
Commander: I’ll save a spot for you in Dragon’s Watch if you ever decide to step down.

Lol- as queen? That sounds weird, because giving proposition to the queen to step into fight is weird, even if Commander was joking (I doubt it).

Well, I have to admit that Anise and Jennah are weird and are really really powerful. But does it mean they are Lyssa?? Well maybe we will find it out soon? Don’t know.

If you read Sea of Sorrows you would know that while it takes powerful magicians to pull these things off, it’s a lot more common that you’re giving it credit. Macha (Asuran mesmer) is able to disguise Cobiah Marriner as a Charr and is capable of communicating through her clones. Verahd (Krytan elementalist and often Isaye Marriner’s “second” at Captain’s Council meetings) often used wind spells to protect ships from attack. Guardians could use their shielding spells to protect ships as well.

Just because Queen Jennah and Countess Anise are exceptionally powerful mesmers that cast spells that we as players can’t cast doesn’t mean that they are both Lyssa in disguse. Perhaps they are, but there is plenty of precedent in the Guild Wars universe that prevents the suggestion that it has to be so.

Well I admited that this could be true, but I am aware it could be false.

“The White Mantle launched a surprise attack on Divinity’s Reach. Betrayed from within and assaulted from without, the city fought a battle on two fronts. Queen Jennah rose to the occasion, revealing just how powerful a mesmer she is, and with a monumental effort on the part of the humans and their allies, the city broke the siege.”
~Flashpoint Patch Notes

I still don’t know why in the trailer for Flashpoint there is written: “Evil menaces Kryta”. Still menaces Kryta? wait what? What’s that supposed to mean? It would fit to the trailer for the Head of the Snake, but for Flashpoint? Even if we know that Lazarus is Balthazar it doesn’t mean that Kryta is in danger…. We did not even have any references to Kryta and that something wrong is gonna happen in Kryta. Kas said what was she doing all this time, but didn’t say that something is wrong in Divinity’s Reach.

That sentence confuses me. And I just can’t explain this “evil menaces Kryta”. That’s kinda weird.

Yes because someone under this amount of surveilance and protection would absolutely go unnoticed for 250+ years not aging or getting replaced at some point in time.

You do realise Jennah is part of a lineage dating back all the way to king Doric. Countess Anise maybe since she has way less story tie ins and is by nature a mysterious figure to begin with.

IF Jennah turns out to be Lyssa (which I highly doubt because some flashy effects and smart preperation a god do not make) it would be very poor writing. She is probably the last human who could be Lyssa with the amount of attention she gets from all sides.

I think Kasmeer is the rightful queen of Kryta.

Anise devotes much attention to her. That’s kinda weird. (in Party Politics Anise was talking to her surprisingly polite and for the Commander she didn’t pay any attention.)

It’s not proof that Anise/Jennah are Lyssa or Kas is rightful Queen, but I was always surprised how kind Anise was to Kasmeer.

1) For all Anise’s ruthlessness towards her enemies, Anise does have enough empathy to be able to tell how uncomfortable Kasmeer was about, basically, having her nose rubbed in her family’s disgrace by the herald’s slip.

2) Anise knows about Kasmeer’s ability to detect lies and wants to make use of it – and unlike Canach, Kasmeer is a fly that she has to catch with honey.

Been a while since ive looked back at this but interesting to see the life still going so heres a few more musings:

Anise and Jennah, Ilya and Lys Revised:

There is still reasons to believe that these two could very well be the dual incarnates of Lyssa as there are alot of hints given throughout the game and novels, a few include:

Edge of Destiny

Jennah quite “literally” charms Logan on first sight, Logan, up until that point had been quite a hard ruffian who didnt really think outside a clear set of self-important preservational rules. He became buddies with caithe/rytlock after the trouble the three got into with Magnus.

But after seeing Jennah it was like a scene from baywatch, her hair waving in slow mo and her body literally glittering (at least thats the way the scene comes across in the novel) as he looks dumbstruck and the other two blink in confusion.

This later seems even more prominant considering the scale of powerful abilities she can wield. Jennah uses her power to create illusions of increadable feats that could not be achieved by a simple mortal, even a powerful mortal.

Jennah is clearly hiding “something” and given her ability to compell Logan to obey her, so easily at that, she has a “charming” nature, much like a certain goddess.

What about Anise?

Anise, in game has alot of refferences to this, from her constant use of calling you puppet or other demeaningly minion like terms to flirting with you outright and teasing you into doing her bidding all the time. Shes manipulative, direct, and forward, if Jennah represents one aspect, Anise represents the other.

Anise often seems very passionate about her beliefs, and Lyssa’s domains dont just include passion in the sense of lust, but also in the sense of eagerness, and ambition, two things Anise has in plentiful quantities.

She also makes an effort to literally keep logan (away) from Jennah in season 1 after a skirmish with the clockwork robots in the crown pavilion during a demo. She “personally” made it turn into Rytlock to make him more eager to destroy it, then berates him for being too close to the queen.

She also seems awefully fond of playing with Canach, who counterplays her by making a joke about her age, something that irks her alot. She takes this surpisingly personally for someone who seems so young and wild.

Finally, theres also the aspect of her facination for Kasmeer, this could very well be because Kasmeer is likely the true royal bloodline (as mentioned in a quote above). Apparently there is a necklace the priory currently owns (as of season 2) that reveals the true krytan heir to the throne, and I suspect Anise is grooming Kasmeer for the role she will eventually play.

But this conspiracy doesnt end there, Kasmeer is also connected to the gods…

Kasmeer also possesses something unusual, her ability to see through lies and deception, yet curiously, she says nothing of Anise and Jennah, primarily because we dont get chance to really speak to her about it.

Kasmeer is also part of a league of mesmers that have exceptional influence over Kryta, and given the messages from E, we can almost go as far as to assume these mesmers are actually influencial enough to have people like Anise in their ring.

So, who is Kasmeer, who is E? My theory, is this, E, is the grand master of the Mesmer circle and is actually the future bodyguard of the next queen (Kasmeer) and thus, will replace Anise as spymaster when the time comes, just as Jennah will be replaced by Kasmeer as queen.

Kasmeer, being connected to the ability to detect lies, may have a connection to Kormir, the goddess of truth, thus, the reign of Jennah and Anise, which ahs been filled with lies, will be replaed with a reign of golden truth by Kormirs chosen avatar and human representative on Tyria, the speaker for the gods.

Any more crazy theories?

Jennah’s fondness for the flower gave us some clues, but lets look at Lyssa’s very dogma too. Lyssa speaks of beuaty being two things, internal and external, not all beauty is about good looking things in Lyssa’s eyes, this is why maybe Jennah represents the plutonic and gentle and serene aspect of Lyssa while Anise represents the passionate, exciteable lusty and direct aspect.

Their divine silence could possibly be because of Balthazars betrayal, if Balthazar betrayed the other gods then it is possible he defeated them and in desperation they “dimmed my light” could be a representative of their final act, possibly to live as mortals in Tyria under cover for now until they can rise once more to the throne of their power.

Either way, crazy as it sounds, it does seem likely that at the very least, the two have a connection to Lyssa, and Kasmeer has one to Kormir, or Dwayna, or perhaps both given her emblemic attires.

Time will tell how right this theory is, but I have a feeling im at least partially right.

And there’s something really interesting in Kasmeer. No one from the Dragon’s Watch changed so much. Kasmeer looks more adult, she has totally different face, she has the title “Lady”, she can be really prepared by Anise to take the throne.

In the Head of the Snake I thorized that at least Jennah will die (it was before the episode) and Kas will take the throne. Anyway I am really interested whether Kasmeer used the portal to Divinity’s Reach. Perhaps she will say Anise that Balthazar attacked Jory. Perhaps this will be the impulse to reveal the truth by Anise and Jennah- possible truth.

Well about the “E” and Mesmer collective- I suspected this powerful organization to send these messages to the Commander. They are more mysterious than the Order of Whispers.

I don’t know why but these words of Jennah make me very suspicious.

“That looks like one, but it’s actually the Krytan Spiderwort. It’ll bloom soon, and its petals give you the most luscious dyes. It’s my favorite flower. It hides its true potential from most and then blossoms into something great.”

Well I am surprised that Jennah invited us to escort her and help her. It looked like a plan of Anise and Jennah- check how loyal Commander is and then help him. She gave really helpful advices.

I am repeating what I wrote in the other topic, but it’s interesting:
“I never want to take up arms against one of my subjects, but…I think I might be quite suited for your lifestyle!” – obviously Anise’s influence. And she clearly said that she wanna fight on the battlefield. Someone can say “She was just joking”. Nope she did not. She can be really powerful ally in our guild, she smashed away 3 White Mantle WITH ONE SHOT.

I also think they are hiding the secret and I am interested in possibly Jennah and Anise’s reactions of Balthazar’s return.

It will tell us whether this theory is true or not. Because what would the Queen do if Balthazar came back- people of Kryta will want to worship the god, not the Queen. So if Jennah is gonna show as the god and then all of people will be just: “so the god was all the time in this city?!” and I don’t know. I hope the expansion will tell us everything about gods and whether Anise/Jennah hide something what is gonna blow our minds.

EDIT: I edited some mistakes in this post.

draxynnic.3719:

Feanor.2358:

You can explain epic-scale feats with the effort of unknown group or device, but you’ll have hard time motivating that. What story purpose do they serve? Why show us an epic feat in the first place, if it has a pretty mundane explanation?

1) Because, having known the mundane reasons why Jennah could pull off such a feat for years, the writers didn’t consider it to be that epic.

2) Because ArenaNet did not want to have to deal with the complexities they did with Lion’s Arch – again - and needed a reason for the White Mantle to be unable to simply bombard Divinity’s Reach into rubble.

3) Because we were not the people who were intended to draw conclusions – Logan was.

4) Because the writers realised how much they’d overcompensated in making sure that humanity didn’t hog the spotlight in GW2, and coming into what is looking like it might be a more human-oriented storyline, they wanted to remind the players that humans were capable of being more than redshirts and victims.

Like I said, if an asura had done this, we would not be batting an eyelid.

1) You can attempt to reason everything with incompetence, but it’s a weak argument.

2) As far as I remember from the human personal stories, the White Mantle was portrayed as a secretive and subversive organization. It was never hinted at all they have a substantial military power at their command. Which is already all the reason you need for them not being able to bombard the city to rubble. Their military power was written as a surprise and as such it obviously had intention. It’s not an accident which the later story deals with, it’s a setup. See (1) again.

3) Logan isn’t the consumer of the story, we are. His conclusions are only relevant as far as the story needs them. And the story can only need them because of us.

4) See (1) again.

Cyninja.2954:

IF Jennah turns out to be Lyssa (which I highly doubt because some flashy effects and smart preperation a god do not make) it would be very poor writing. She is probably the last human who could be Lyssa with the amount of attention she gets from all sides.

A friendly reminder Lyssa is the goddess of illusion. We’ve already seen Anise getting away with her mesmery tricks on high-profile party politics. And nobody gets under surveillance 24/7. It is totally possible for the goddess of illusion to take the place of whoever she wishes. Assuming otherwise puts a severe limitation on the gods’ powers and basically puts them around the level of the Commander in terms of power. I find that highly unlikely.

Feanor.2358:

1) You can attempt to reason everything with incompetence, but it’s a weak argument.

2) As far as I remember from the human personal stories, the White Mantle was portrayed as a secretive and subversive organization. It was never hinted at all they have a substantial military power at their command. Which is already all the reason you need for them not being able to bombard the city to rubble. Their military power was written as a surprise and as such it obviously had intention. It’s not an accident which the later story deals with, it’s a setup. See (1) again.

3) Logan isn’t the consumer of the story, we are. His conclusions are only relevant as far as the story needs them. And the story can only need them because of us.

4) See (1) again.

1) It’s not incompetance. It’s actually the opposite – ArenaNet finally showing that they remember some of the lore that hasn’t previously been shown “on-screen”, as it were, and that humans can do more than simply being the victims.

There are a lot of instances in the lore of humans performing powerful feats, alone, collectively, and/or with the aid of powerful magical artifacts. ArenaNet’s writers could easily have thought that Jennah’s city dome was not really so impressive because it’s been established all along that under the right circumstances, potent human spellcasters can pull off some truly amazing feats… and Jennah has always been established as a potent spellcaster. There are three examples I can think of in the lore prior to E4, just off the top of my head, where a human mesmer changes the course of a battle with a powerful magical working, one of them by Jennah herself… except that they’re all in the books and histories, not something we’ve been shown firsthand. The only thing that makes this special is that we’re actually shown it ingame rather than reading about it.

2) In the personal story, yes, but it’s made very clear in raids, and to a lesser extent episode 1 and season 2, that the White Mantle were a lot more powerful than they had previously been given credit for, including having a weapons program that could lead to weapons capable of leveling Divinity’s Reach. Even without a set of magical superweapons, all it takes is medium-intensity street combat to see a lot of destruction in the city, particularly since the White Mantle make heavy use of magic. I know a few people who were expecting Divinity’s Reach to be devastated like Lion’s Arch was, including at least one who did a screenshot tour before the update so they could remember Divinity’s Reach as it was.

3) Logan isn’t the ‘consumer’, but the plot effect of Jennah showing off is that Logan (finally) realises that Jennah really doesn’t need his protection and thus he is free to take another assignment elsewhere. Any requirement for Jennah’s display of power to have a greater plot “purpose” is discharged by the character development it created in Logan, without the need for the audience to start forming conspiracy theories about how a character that is well established as a powerful spellcaster must actually be a god just because her power has stopped being an Informed Ability (for the purpose of the game itself, see #1) and has been shown on screen.

4) See #1.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Kasmeer, being connected to the ability to detect lies, may have a connection to Kormir, the goddess of truth, thus, the reign of Jennah and Anise, which ahs been filled with lies, will be replaed with a reign of golden truth by Kormirs chosen avatar and human representative on Tyria, the speaker for the gods.

Any more crazy theories?

Jennah’s fondness for the flower gave us some clues, but lets look at Lyssa’s very dogma too. Lyssa speaks of beuaty being two things, internal and external, not all beauty is about good looking things in Lyssa’s eyes, this is why maybe Jennah represents the plutonic and gentle and serene aspect of Lyssa while Anise represents the passionate, exciteable lusty and direct aspect.

First, Kasmeer’s ability is supposedly connected to the thorn she got pricked with in the Tower of Nightmares. I don’t know how a thorn from a nightmare tree grants the ability to detect lies, but apparently it does.

Regarding the Krytan Spiderwort… the ‘payoff’ for that discussion is the potential redemption of Valette. Now, that doesn’t necessarily mean that there won’t be more down the track, but I don’t think there’s any need for there to be a deeper reason – that Chekhov’s Gun has already been fired.

Arden.7480:

Nope she did not. She can be really powerful ally in our guild, she smashed away 3 White Mantle WITH ONE SHOT.

Caudecus also killed Demmi with one shot.

We need to remember that game mechanics and how various skills actually work in lore are two very different things. We’re used to hacking away at somebody for at least ten-fifteen seconds or so to deplete their hit points before they go down. In reality, a person with a sword through the gut is probably down right away. Actions shown in cinematics are not limited to game mechanics (consider that in combat sequences earlier in the instance where Jennah is limited to game mechanics, she does less damage than most PCs…)

Well about this “Caudecus” also killed Demmi with one shot", so I go further with that: “Lazarus” also killed many White Mantle with one shot, and then it was revealed that “Lazarus” is a god.

We have the contrast between Balthazar and Jennah- this is interesting that we met with Jennah before we knew the truth about Balthazar- as it was planed or something.

Also they both showed their best skills- Jennah- giantic shield, who protected the whole city and some normal skills of mesmer. Also she had the skill to unleash us from the Estelle’s trap, then we could kill her. And as I said she killed 3 (she wanted to kill 4) White Mantle with one shot- 3 armored White Mantle ready to fight. This is totally different situation than when Caudecus killed Demmi. Demmi did not expect that, she couldn’t defend herself, but these White Mantle could.

Also when “Lazarus” attacked the Caudeucus’ followers these White Mantle could defend themselves. But they didn’t.

The actions of Balthazar and Jennah are really similar and I think Jennah could show more if it would be necessary, but with a god’s reveal (I mean Balthazar’s) we can really speculate that Lyssa could do the same thing as she did in Wren.

3 months ago we couldn’t even imagine that we would speculate about this theory so seriously. It actually can be true. I don’t say “it will be for certain”. I hope we’ll find out in the future.

Lazarus took an entire flippin’ platoon of White Mantle with one inferno. Jenna took out three White Mantle, and she had to take a seperate action for each. These are not equivalent actions. I’d also note that while mechanically mesmer power attacks are affected by armour, thematically there’s no reason why a mental attack would be – in GW1 they generally weren’t, after all, but GW2 has simpler mechanics in that regard.

Sure, she was ‘disabled’, but consider this: She took out three of the White Mantle, but relied on intimidation to deal with the last. Almost like she was using some kind of skill that can be prepared in advance, can be released instantly, but only has up to three charges before its gone. Like, say, a mantra.

When looking at cinematic mode, rather than game mechanics mode, it really wouldn’t surprise me if the PC mesmer would theoretically be able to one-shot three mooks in a row with a charged Mantra of Pain. We’ll never see it, because ArenaNet can’t assume that the PC is a specific profession in their writing, let alone that they have a particular skill loaded, but seriously, I don’t find it outside the realm of possibility that a powerful mortal mesmer could quickly take out a few mooks without being some kind of divine being. This goes double when ArenaNet have stated that the Mesmer Collective has access to mesmer spells that the PC, being a non-member, does not have.

So I don’t think it’s all that different. It’d just evidence that the rules in scripted scenes are different to the rules in game mechanics, which we all have to agree are a bit abstracted and not really all that realistic when you think about it. Scripted scenes can be a little more realistic.

The ability to break Estelle’s trap links to how mesmers have always been associated with the ability to unbind somebody else’s magic. We don’t see that in GW2’s game mechanics, unfortunately, except in the odd boon strip or condition removal, but we do see it in plot: Kasmeer revealing the Tower of Nightmares, for instance. So that’s hardly surprising either.

That just leaves the city dome, and that’s been discussed ad nauseum. Suffice it to say that there is plenty of evidence that mortals can pull off things like that, particularly if they’re not working alone… and Jennah has all the resources that come with being the queen of Kryta behind her.

Well I have another explanation of Jennah’s separate attacks. As the goddess of beauty she wanted to give a chance to the white Mantle, so she wanted to deal with them slowly.

Anyway we didn’t see Anise and Jennah fighting together, perhaps when they are together, their powers are connecting and then they are powerful as Balthazar and they can kill lot of enemies with one shot.

That’s surprising that Anise didn’t appear out of nowhere when the city was attacked from Lake Doric. Perhaps it was a plan so Jennah’s power was enough to stop White Mantle.

As I said we didn’t see Anise and Jennah together in action. Lyssa is the connection of two aspect and only then Lyssa is powerful when two aspect are together.

“Lazarus” killed lot of White Mantle with one inferno, because he didn’t need someone else to use his best skills.

So perhaps when Anise and Jennah are separated their skills are nothing special, but what if they connect to each other and then are powerful as hell?

Maybe…

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Been a while since ive looked back at this but interesting to see the life still going so heres a few more musings:

[…]

It was a pleasure reading through your theories. All the connections you made actually make perfect sense. It would be so exciting if those turned out to be accurate. I would love that!

Arden.7480:

Well I have another explanation of Jennah’s separate attacks. As the goddess of beauty she wanted to give a chance to the white Mantle, so she wanted to deal with them slowly.

Except that she goes through the first three pretty darn quickly.

“You?” [points and kills]
“Maybe you?” [points and kills]
“And you?” [points and kills]
“And you, my friend? Where you surprised?” [points and, notably, does NOT kill.]
[Mook #4 runs]

She gives the first three virtually no opportunity to process what’s going on, killing them all in the space of about ten seconds. She then gives the fourth an extended speech (relatively speaking), and he doesn’t run until after she’s already pointed the finger – for each of the others, at that point they were already dead.

If she was motivated by a general feeling of mercy, then she hasn’t really gained much by letting one run after killing three. Such a motive would have been better fulfilled by taking out two and then giving the third the opportunity she gave the fourth, so that both the third and fourth could run. (Even this, though, has the flaw that those that ran would probably still rejoin the Mantle and cause more damage elsewhere, so is it really mercy to let them live?)

If there’d been more than four, I could buy the general mercy motive, or if she’d given the third the chance to run that she gave the fourth.

Since she only gave one of the four a chance to run, I think this can only be explained in one of two ways:

First, and most likely in my mind: She only had three shots, and was relying on intimidation to get rid of the fourth.

Second, she recognised something about Mook #4 that caused her to give him, and only him, an opportunity to run.

Broadly speaking, regarding the rest of the post:

You can come up with further explanations, but at the bottom line, the critical flaw in the theory is that it’s based on the assumption that what Jennah has done is outside the bounds of mortal magic, and thus needs a divine explanation. However, there is good reason to think that what Jennah has done is within the bounds of what a powerful mortal spellcaster is capable of achieving, especially if you abandon the assumption that Jennah has performed these feats purely through her own personal power. That Jennah had the assistance of other spellcasters in producing and maintaining the dome (noting that the dome has a lot of guardian blue in it when viewed from Lake Doric), or that Jennah had the usage of powerful magic artifacts, or simply that people are just underestimating what the top end of mortal spellcasting is capable of at a time when magic is stronger than it’s ever been since the Elder Dragons were last active, all seem to me to be simpler and better explanations.

(PS I will say that the idea that Lyss and Ilya need to combine to wield their full strength is a valid one, and could be interesting if and when they do interact with us directly. However, I would observe that if Countess Anise had been present, someone would probably now be citing that as evidence that the two need to be together to use their full power. When both the positive and negative scenario can be cited as evidence for a theory, than neither makes for convincing evidence.)

why is she barefoot & have the most basic look but a fancy dress?
I hate her.

draxynnic.3719:

1) It’s not incompetance. It’s actually the opposite – ArenaNet finally showing that they remember some of the lore that hasn’t previously been shown “on-screen”, as it were, and that humans can do more than simply being the victims.

“Finally showing that they remember” implies incompetence already. So yeah, it is.

draxynnic.3719:

2) In the personal story, yes, but it’s made very clear in raids, and to a lesser extent episode 1 and season 2, that the White Mantle were a lot more powerful than they had previously been given credit for

Which makes them a plot device, because they were specifically made a bigger threat. This only happens for a reason. A storytelling reason. Consider their role in the story. They didn’t really succeed in anything. They tried to bring back Lazarus and failed. They tried to attack Divinity’s Reach and failed. They tried to study the Bloodstone and failed. Caudecus tried to overthrow Jennah and failed. All of these story threads are more or less over. The Maguuma bloodstone is destroyed, Caudecus is dead, Lazarus is actually Balthazar who used them and abandoned them to pursue his own agenda and Queen Jennah isn’t contested for the rule over Kryta. If anything, her political power is larger now, after Meeting of Ministers.

There isn’t anything left for the White Mantle to do. Their leaders are all dead, their order is in ruins. So what plot purpose did they serve? There’s Balthazar, of course, but they didn’t need to launch an attack on DR for that story to resolve. Balthazar betraying them could just as well lead them to ruin. However the attack did happen and it all revolved around Queen Jennah.

draxynnic.3719:

3) Logan isn’t the ‘consumer’, but the plot effect of Jennah showing off is that Logan (finally) realises that Jennah really doesn’t need his protection and thus he is free to take another assignment elsewhere. Any requirement for Jennah’s display of power to have a greater plot “purpose” is discharged by the character development it created in Logan, without the need for the audience to start forming conspiracy theories about how a character that is well established as a powerful spellcaster must actually be a god just because her power has stopped being an Informed Ability (for the purpose of the game itself, see #1) and has been shown on screen.

Fair point. I’m not saying she’s must be god, I’m saying she might be one.

draxynnic.3719:

\
First, and most likely in my mind: She only had three shots, and was relying on intimidation to get rid of the fourth.

This, all Mesmer Mantras have three charges (if they’re traited.) Which is actually some dedication from anet to their mechanics.

Ok I understand all of your points and disagreements about Jennah’s being a god in disguise.

But how would you explain “the diversion” of Anise?

“When suspicion reaches maximum
Noble: Oh, the audacity! Where are your manners?
Noble: Guards. Please escort these…scandalmongers to the gates.
Kasmeer Meade: Oh no. This…isn’t what was supposed to happen.
Talking to Kasmeer
Kasmeer: Ooh, that’s disorienting. My goodness.
Commander: What just happened?
Kasmeer: It felt like a mesmer spell. I think Anise created a diversion for us. Let’s get back into the party.
Commander: Let’s go.”

This “diversion” cleaned memory of the people so we could talk to them all again!!!

Is it common among the mesmers that they can use magic to clean memories of the other people?

Anyway it’s not normal magic, this is totally insane magic who can change the time and clean the memories of people.

Do you have any other cases of such as this kind of magic? Did anyone in history of the whole GW use the spell to change memories and time?

I feel really bad that I didn’t mention about it before. This is huge thing about Anise.

EDIT: And this spell was casted by the Illusion of Anise(!!!!!). She has really powerful clones who can cast the insane spells!

This is probably going to end up being the next bandwagon theory that gets proven true despite all reason against such, isn’t it? Let’s hope not. ArenaNet needs to stop incorporating contradictory and nonsensical bandwagon theories in their story and make something up themselves.

Arden.7480:

Is it common among the mesmers that they can use magic to clean memories of the other people?

Yes… and no.

GW1 was practically all about the direct manipulation of individual’s thoughts and perception, rather than the common GW2 mesmer magic which is altering reality (though there was that in GW1, it was much less common).

In an interview a while back this was brought up and asked – don’t recall the exact interview, unfortunately, but the response was effectively that mesmers can influence an individual in such a way but mesmers in general, largely through the Mesmer Collective, keep such spells hush hush in fear of the populace backlashing and mistrusting (rightfully so I’d say) mesmers because they could manipulate memories, personalities, and perceptions of the world on an individual basis.

And as such, only the highest members of the Mesmer Collective – which I’d imagine Anise is, given she is in lore presented as one of the strongest mesmers, is a member of the collective, and is leader of the Shining Blade – has access and knowledge to such spells.

Arden.7480:

Do you have any other cases of such as this kind of magic? Did anyone in history of the whole GW use the spell to change memories and time?

I don’t think Anise influenced time. She distorted space to move Kasmeer and the PC out of the area (something we see to be VERY common place among mesmers now – particularly evident among White Mantle), then altered memories of the past 10 or so minutes in the manner of “forgetting it happened” (which compared to instilling false memories is fairly easy all things considered). No time manipulation there.

But for manipulating people’s minds, in addition to above:

The Charr move through the land with the speed and primal fury of a wildfire. I have begun to realize that simple defenses are not enough to slow this onslaught, so I have devised a new spell. It is actually a relatively simple matter to use the ether to alter the perception of an enemy, especially one so primitive as the Charr. In their minds, they believe themselves fatigued…atrophied, even…thus slowing their relentless assault. I only hope it is enough.

The Charr have come to us. All I can do is try to save my research in the hope that someone can use it to forge a better future for mankind. It was this overwhelming desire to stem the tide that inspired my last spell. I have found a way to use the ether to directly inhibit a foe’s mind. The weave is complex, but when properly crafted the spell slows a foe’s actions. It is as if he is moving through molasses. If only this could slow the wave of inevitability about to wash over us. Perhaps some might escape…

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Research_Journal

These were spells available to every player in GW1, even secondary mesmers. While the PCs are typically “above and beyond the rest”, this shows that what Anise did is plausible for normal people. Especially if they have time to prepare such, which Anise undoubtably did.

And perhaps key words is in the first quote: it is a “relatively simple” matter to use magic to alter an individual’s perception. Perception of time or memories would be involved in such.

So apparently that spell Anise cast which you are saying is such a major and massive spell is in fact… relatively simple. Of course, over multiple individuals it would undoubtably become more complex, but making someone forget the past 10 or so minutes cannot be insanely more difficult than making someone believe themselves fatigued.

Arden.7480:

EDIT: And this spell was casted by the Illusion of Anise(!!!!!). She has really powerful clones who can cast the insane spells!

Not so sure about that, given the illusion was so poor that it couldn’t even hold conversation.

It might be more that Anise used the illusion as a focal point, preparing the spell beforehand in that illusion so it can be activated at a moment’s notice should it need to be.

Feanor.2358:

draxynnic.3719:

1) It’s not incompetance. It’s actually the opposite – ArenaNet finally showing that they remember some of the lore that hasn’t previously been shown “on-screen”, as it were, and that humans can do more than simply being the victims.

“Finally showing that they remember” implies incompetence already. So yeah, it is.

Semantics. Claiming that I’m “attempting to reason everything with incompetance” is a misrepresentation of my point, and your response gives me the impression it is deliberate.

My point is this:

While they had not previously been shown on-screen in Guild Wars 2, the lore contains numerous examples of human spellcasters performing feats of similar size, scope and power to Jennah’s city dome, alone or with the assistance of magical devices. The writers will know this, and therefore not expect the player base to ascribe any deeper meaning to the city dome than that Jennah is an exceptionally powerful mesmer – which we already knew.

That people may be ascribing more significance because this is the first time we’ve seen something like this done on-screen in Guild Wars 2 provides context but is not the meat of my argument, let alone the question of whether the lack of on-screen precedents implies incompetence on the part of the writers. Attacking my point on this ground, therefore, is a strawman argument.

draxynnic.3719:

Which makes them a plot device, because they were specifically made a bigger threat. This only happens for a reason. A storytelling reason. Consider their role in the story. They didn’t really succeed in anything. They tried to bring back Lazarus and failed. They tried to attack Divinity’s Reach and failed. They tried to study the Bloodstone and failed. Caudecus tried to overthrow Jennah and failed. All of these story threads are more or less over. The Maguuma bloodstone is destroyed, Caudecus is dead, Lazarus is actually Balthazar who used them and abandoned them to pursue his own agenda and Queen Jennah isn’t contested for the rule over Kryta. If anything, her political power is larger now, after Meeting of Ministers.

There isn’t anything left for the White Mantle to do. Their leaders are all dead, their order is in ruins. So what plot purpose did they serve? There’s Balthazar, of course, but they didn’t need to launch an attack on DR for that story to resolve. Balthazar betraying them could just as well lead them to ruin. However the attack did happen and it all revolved around Queen Jennah.

Every story needs to climax eventually if it’s not to drag on indefinitely.

For the White Mantle story to climax, they needed to turn from a shadowy insurgency that only the Shining Blade still existed to being a credible threat to Queen Jennah and Divinity’s Reach. To achieve this, they needed to either turn Divinity’s Reach into a warzone, or exceptional efforts had to be made on the part of those defending Divinity’s Reach to prevent this. ArenaNet went with the second option.

Naturally, the episode which concludes the side arc of the plots against Queen Jennah is going to revolve around Queen Jennah.

draxynnic.3719:

Fair point. I’m not saying she’s must be god, I’m saying she might be one.

Yes, it’s possible. I think the evidence that people are citing is better explained by more mundane means, however.

draxynnic.3719:

While they had not previously been shown on-screen in Guild Wars 2, the lore contains numerous examples of human spellcasters performing feats of similar size, scope and power to Jennah’s city dome, alone or with the assistance of magical devices. The writers will know this, and therefore not expect the player base to ascribe any deeper meaning to the city dome than that Jennah is an exceptionally powerful mesmer – which we already knew.

There is some validity to this, however the writers have to consider players who aren’t familiar with the off-screen lore. So should you, by the way. And even if we don’t take the city-wide dome as a feat of godlike power – which is the valid point in your argument – the theory isn’t based solely on it. There has been enough mystery around Jennah since the personal story days, to make the theory plausible.

And don’t try to strawman me. Read your own posts. They are full of condescension toward the writing and you’re basing much of your case on this. To be precise, you cannot argue that the White Mantle were used to “remind us of human prowess” without implying incompetence in the writing.

Finally, come on, a whole raid story and half a living world season just for that? Now that I’d call incompetent writing. It would be utterly disappointing and anti-climactic.

Is everyone forgetting that she managed in incapacitate the whole of Ebon hawke in the edge of destiny book. and fooled dragon minions that everyone had been turned in to crystal. I feel that tops anything she has done in game.

Feanor.2358:

There is some validity to this, however the writers have to consider players who aren’t familiar with the off-screen lore. So should you, by the way.

With all the off-screen mentions of awesome displays of magical power, it’s reasonable to expect that sooner or later there will be one on-screen.

Sure, there’ll be people who’ve never paid attention to the various lore books and other stories which include such feats, and will be surprised when it happens on-screen. However, this does not need to mean any more than that something that has been well established offscreen as being possible has now been moved onscreen.

And even if we don’t take the city-wide dome as a feat of godlike power – which is the valid point in your argument – the theory isn’t based solely on it. There has been enough mystery around Jennah since the personal story days, to make the theory plausible.

No more than around most other significant NPCs, really. We probably know more about Jennah than, say, Smodur or Phlunt.

Anise, now… but we know that one Master Exemplar of the Shining Blade has extended her lifespan via magical means. Could be that another has. Could even be the same one, who had plenty of time to master mesmerism over the centuries in order to hide that the Shining Blade has actually never had a leadership change since the end of the last Krytan civil war.

And don’t try to strawman me. Read your own posts. They are full of condescension toward the writing and you’re basing much of your case on this. To be precise, you cannot argue that the White Mantle were used to “remind us of human prowess” without implying incompetence in the writing.

Nevertheless, you took something that was not my main point, dressed it up as my main point, and attacked that, while ignoring what was actually my main point. Deliberate or not, that’s pretty much textbook strawmanning.

Granted, there are aspects of ArenaNet’s writing I’ve been disappointed by – including much of Season 1 and that I think they overcompensated in downplaying humanity’s strengths and importance to break people out of the mindset of humans being central to the setting – but again, this is context and not relevant to the main point. I’d also note that ‘incompetant’ is a stronger word than I’d use. Mistakes can be made without it being incompetance, particularly if those mistakes are learned from and addressed later.

Finally, come on, a whole raid story and half a living world season just for that? Now that I’d call incompetent writing. It would be utterly disappointing and anti-climactic.

Well, the White Mantle weren’t involved in episodes 2 and 3, so it was just the raid story and episodes 1 and 4. Even there, episode 1 – apart from the final instance – and the raid is more about setting up “Lazarus” (and therefore Balthazar), which is an ongoing plot which will probably continue into the expansion – Episode 4 was simply a matter of tying off the loose ends.

(I’ll have to admit that I was a bit disappointed that they dropped the mursaat plot in order to make Balthazar into a villain, but I’m reserving judgement there until I see more on how that develops.)