Guild Wars 2

Is anyone else a bit concerned about Caithe? Especially during the mission in Bloodstone Fen that she aided you with. She pretty much lost control of her emotions and begged for your forgiveness during an ambush... then when you asked if she was coming along she said in a very dejected tone that she's "just a shadow". Kinda makes you think her actions and everything that has happened is finally hitting her.

Did anyone else get that vibe or was it just me? :P
’

It didn’t sound like uncontrolled emotion at all, more like just legitimate regret at actions she had previously taken. She does offer an explanation for her behavior; that her Wyld Hunt and The Call were giving a conflicting, jumbled message to her that made her decision-making capacity a little strained.

I don’t think she sounded dejected when she said that, it was in response to the Commander (Poo-Bah?) asking if she’ll be okay on her own that deep in very hostile territory.

Yeah, I think she has genuine regret.

However, she also needs a good slap to sort her out.

I wished she had died in Trahearne’s stead. This sums up pretty much my feelings towards her and her actions.

I stopped trusting her. Left up to me, I wouldn’t let her within two zones of the egg or three zones of the pale tree.

• She conspired with another sylvari to hide a secret, denying her race and even its leaders/elders a chance to choose their own destiny.
• When confronted with the threat, she kept that secret, despite the fact that it obviously had huge potential to impact decisions made by her friends, the Commander, the Marshall, the Pact, and Tyria generally.
• She unilaterally decided that she knew better than anyone else how to protect the egg.
• She fails to show up to Eir’s funeral.
• She waits until the commander (aka Poohbah) is in danger before even attempting an apology. And let’s be clear: it wasn’t an apology. In effect, she said she’s sorry she got caught and that she’d make the same choices again.

As I see it Caithe is just acting like she always has. Her personality changes little through the books, the sylvari personal story etc etc. She sometimes regret some of the consequences of her actions, but never the actions themselves. “Act with wisdom, but act!” pretty much sums her up.

Perhaps but she has basically lost everyone she’s cared about. She kinda lost Faolain before but I think she knew Faolain was always there in a sense, now she’s gone forever. Trahearne is gone as well, the Pale Tree is supposedly in a very bad way still and the closest thing she had to friends no longer trust her at all.

Maybe she is still just a lying, stubborn and snooty person but the confluence of all those events and in this relative “downtime” after Mordremoth, I believe all of that is finally sinking in.

I’m an optimist I guess and would see it as more interesting if she realized she has to change, either trying and succeeding or trying an failing rather than remain the same static character she has been.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I stopped trusting her. Left up to me, I wouldn’t let her within two zones of the egg or three zones of the pale tree.

• She conspired with another sylvari to hide a secret, denying her race and even its leaders/elders a chance to choose their own destiny.
• When confronted with the threat, she kept that secret, despite the fact that it obviously had huge potential to impact decisions made by her friends, the Commander, the Marshall, the Pact, and Tyria generally.
• She unilaterally decided that she knew better than anyone else how to protect the egg.
• She fails to show up to Eir’s funeral.
• She waits until the commander (aka Poohbah) is in danger before even attempting an apology. And let’s be clear: it wasn’t an apology. In effect, she said she’s sorry she got caught and that she’d make the same choices again.

well said!

An entire tribe of peaceful centaurs, dedicated to Ventari’s teachings… lost everyone they loved. Because Caithe slaughtered them all.

She’s continued to moon over her murderous lover before and after Mordremoth returned.

And just ignoring the sheer moral crimes of the woman, there’s the pragmatic question of would I ever trust her again? Answer: No. I need someone who I can trust at my back.

ppl can go a long way to protect and support those they love, also lets not forget that there was an elder dragon infuencing her the whole time.

Mordremoth’s voice only was an issue after he awoke (at end of scarlet story). So it doesn’t apply to the Centaur slaughter.

Murdering people to protect and support those you love is still murder.

But on top of that, she was riding shotgun on a mission to coerce her sister first born (Wynne) into revealing information. Abducting Wynne was just about the first step. The last step was going to be torturing the information out of her.

It has been suggested that Caithe was unaware of that intention, but that would require a level of stupidity that would leave Caithe unfit for doing much at all. Moreover, the end scene where Caithe kills Wynne makes it clear that Caithe was well aware of the violence and cruelty that Faolaine was capable of, so she can’t even claim ignorance.

What gets me is that the writers just never seemed to grasp that slaughtering an entire tribe of peaceful, friendly centaurs because they’re trying to keep you from abducting and torturing information out of your sister, is not little “oops”.

I trust Caithe even less now than I did before. And since I stopped trusting her at all before I even got to Orr, that means it’s in negative values, and she’s required to trust me more to make up for it. She’s completely undermined and compromised, proven to be utterly unreliable, and entirely too arrogant to be of any use to anyone, even herself. Certainly not her own people or anyone else in Tyria.

If I had my way she wouldn’t just be in a cell or under constant guard, she’d be dead.

Highlord.7158:

I trust Caithe even less now than I did before. And since I stopped trusting her at all before I even got to Orr, that means it’s in negative values, and she’s required to trust me more to make up for it. She’s completely undermined and compromised, proven to be utterly unreliable, and entirely too arrogant to be of any use to anyone, even herself. Certainly not her own people or anyone else in Tyria.

If I had my way she wouldn’t just be in a cell or under constant guard, she’d be dead.

Now that you mentioned jail, I realize I trust Canach more than I do Caithe. He admits to his misdeeds and at least pays lip service to reforming himself. Caithe claims to want to apologize, but she only admits that she thinks she was right — it’s less of an apology than we’ve seen from many RL public figures.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Highlord.7158:

I trust Caithe even less now than I did before. And since I stopped trusting her at all before I even got to Orr, that means it’s in negative values, and she’s required to trust me more to make up for it. She’s completely undermined and compromised, proven to be utterly unreliable, and entirely too arrogant to be of any use to anyone, even herself. Certainly not her own people or anyone else in Tyria.

If I had my way she wouldn’t just be in a cell or under constant guard, she’d be dead.

Now that you mentioned jail, I realize I trust Canach more than I do Caithe.

Exactly. Canach is far more trustworthy -and far more interesting character- than Caithe. I picked him, along with Braham, for the final HoT battle.

I too agree with what Wreave wrote. The fact she followed and supported Faolain for so long speaks volumes of her; and having the nerve to stole Glint’s egg … Her choices have been anything but wise.

Neurion.4086:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Highlord.7158:

I trust Caithe even less now than I did before. And since I stopped trusting her at all before I even got to Orr, that means it’s in negative values, and she’s required to trust me more to make up for it. She’s completely undermined and compromised, proven to be utterly unreliable, and entirely too arrogant to be of any use to anyone, even herself. Certainly not her own people or anyone else in Tyria.

If I had my way she wouldn’t just be in a cell or under constant guard, she’d be dead.

Now that you mentioned jail, I realize I trust Canach more than I do Caithe.

Exactly. Canach is far more trustworthy -and far more interesting character- than Caithe. I picked him, along with Braham, for the final HoT battle.

I too agree with what Wreave wrote. The fact she followed and supported Faolain for so long speaks volumes of her; and having the nerve to stole Glint’s egg … Her choices have been anything but wise.

The Faolain thing I blame on blind love, something any of us can get irl, where we ignore all the evils the person we love does because we care about them that much. Glint’s Egg was around the time Mordremoth’s voice was reaching Sylvari, and her Wyld Hunt dealt with it too. She really wasn’t working with a full deck there…unless your PC is a Sylvari, at which point keeping it out of your hands wasn’t entirely stupid, since she didn’t know if you were turning.

RyuDragnier.9476:

The Faolain thing I blame on blind love, something any of us can get irl, where we ignore all the evils the person we love does because we care about them that much.

No. 100% No. I wouldn’t fall in love with someone who was malevolent in the first place; and if they turned to it or revealed it was there all along, I would fall out of love immediately. Because… moral compass.

Wreave.2138:

RyuDragnier.9476:

The Faolain thing I blame on blind love, something any of us can get irl, where we ignore all the evils the person we love does because we care about them that much.

No. 100% No. I wouldn’t fall in love with someone who was malevolent in the first place; and if they turned to it or revealed it was there all along, I would fall out of love immediately. Because… moral compass.

+1
I totally agree on the moral compass argument.
Thinking back the LS2 story with Wynne… instead of confronting Faolain, even fight her, Caithe chose to kill Wynne. Honestly, that was a horrible thing she did.

Were I married or in such a serious relationship, and the person I loved went as evi las Faolin, and on my watch, not only would I fall out of love pretty kitten quick, I’ put them down personally.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Glint’s Egg was around the time Mordremoth’s voice was reaching Sylvari, and her Wyld Hunt dealt with it too.

But did her Wyld Hunt really have anything to do with the egg?

Caithe’s Hunt was to slay Zhaitan, which had been done. Nowhere is it said that ANY sylvari gets a second Hunt after their first is over.

Also, the vision from the Dream is passed to the Commander, not Caithe. Even the Pale Tree says this was for us to do, not Caithe. That’s why we were the ones given the vision, not her.

Caithe has a long history of making quick judgements and doing what she feels is right, but not applying that judgement to herself. In one of the sylvari starting stories (Shield of the Moon), she bluntly tells someone that his love is lost to nightmare, and he should move on. She also kills a member of the Nightmare Court that we had chosen to spare (I don’t recall which story that’s in, but it’s one of the sylvari stories). Also, I believe it was Caithe that decided Destiny’s Edge would go after Glint next, and would have killed her had Glint not reasoned with them.

Caithe is a monster that will do whatever she wants for her own ends, but expects better from others. Was that egg her Wyld Hunt? No. No, it was not.

Canach puts in a good word for her, saying that The Call and a Wyld Hunt together would mess with any sylvari’s mind, and I trust him. But we all know she was lying about the egg being her Hunt. The only thing that was confusing her was The Call being at odds with her own desires.

Palador.2170:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Glint’s Egg was around the time Mordremoth’s voice was reaching Sylvari, and her Wyld Hunt dealt with it too.

But did her Wyld Hunt really have anything to do with the egg?

Caithe’s Hunt was to slay Zhaitan, which had been done. Nowhere is it said that ANY sylvari gets a second Hunt after their first is over.

Also, the vision from the Dream is passed to the Commander, not Caithe. Even the Pale Tree says this was for us to do, not Caithe. That’s why we were the ones given the vision, not her.

Caithe has a long history of making quick judgements and doing what she feels is right, but not applying that judgement to herself. In one of the sylvari starting stories (Shield of the Moon), she bluntly tells someone that his love is lost to nightmare, and he should move on. She also kills a member of the Nightmare Court that we had chosen to spare (I don’t recall which story that’s in, but it’s one of the sylvari stories). Also, I believe it was Caithe that decided Destiny’s Edge would go after Glint next, and would have killed her had Glint not reasoned with them.

Caithe is a monster that will do whatever she wants for her own ends, but expects better from others. Was that egg her Wyld Hunt? No. No, it was not.

Canach puts in a good word for her, saying that The Call and a Wyld Hunt together would mess with any sylvari’s mind, and I trust him. But we all know she was lying about the egg being her Hunt. The only thing that was confusing her was The Call being at odds with her own desires.

I think that’s why Faolain kept trying to pull her into Nightmare. Faolain recognized the monstrous behavior that Caithe was capable of. I’m starting to wonder if Caithe saying that she was just a shadow was her being over the top, or has some truth to it…

Wreave.2138:

RyuDragnier.9476:

The Faolain thing I blame on blind love, something any of us can get irl, where we ignore all the evils the person we love does because we care about them that much.

No. 100% No. I wouldn’t fall in love with someone who was malevolent in the first place; and if they turned to it or revealed it was there all along, I would fall out of love immediately. Because… moral compass.

You say that, but believe me, it DOES happen. I have personally witnessed some of the smartest people fall for the worst of the worst. Emotion is a crazy thing mang.

Palador.2170:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Glint’s Egg was around the time Mordremoth’s voice was reaching Sylvari, and her Wyld Hunt dealt with it too.

But did her Wyld Hunt really have anything to do with the egg?

Caithe’s Hunt was to slay Zhaitan, which had been done. Nowhere is it said that ANY sylvari gets a second Hunt after their first is over.

Also, the vision from the Dream is passed to the Commander, not Caithe. Even the Pale Tree says this was for us to do, not Caithe. That’s why we were the ones given the vision, not her.

Caithe has a long history of making quick judgements and doing what she feels is right, but not applying that judgement to herself. In one of the sylvari starting stories (Shield of the Moon), she bluntly tells someone that his love is lost to nightmare, and he should move on. She also kills a member of the Nightmare Court that we had chosen to spare (I don’t recall which story that’s in, but it’s one of the sylvari stories). Also, I believe it was Caithe that decided Destiny’s Edge would go after Glint next, and would have killed her had Glint not reasoned with them.

Caithe is a monster that will do whatever she wants for her own ends, but expects better from others. Was that egg her Wyld Hunt? No. No, it was not.

Canach puts in a good word for her, saying that The Call and a Wyld Hunt together would mess with any sylvari’s mind, and I trust him. But we all know she was lying about the egg being her Hunt. The only thing that was confusing her was The Call being at odds with her own desires.

If you actually played the story you’d know that sylvari can experience more than one Wyld Hunt. It happens to the sylvari PC.

Ignigknawt.7869:

If you actually played the story you’d know that sylvari can experience more than one Wyld Hunt. It happens to the sylvari PC.

I have played the story. All races, all paths, at least through joining one of the orders (at which point the race doesn’t really matter any more).

A sylvari PC’s Wyld Hunt is supposed to be to destroy the Elder Dragons. At no point do we actually gain a second Hunt.

The vision about the egg is not a second Hunt, as that vision goes to the Commander no matter what their race is.

Ignigknawt.7869:

Wreave.2138:

RyuDragnier.9476:

The Faolain thing I blame on blind love, something any of us can get irl, where we ignore all the evils the person we love does because we care about them that much.

No. 100% No. I wouldn’t fall in love with someone who was malevolent in the first place; and if they turned to it or revealed it was there all along, I would fall out of love immediately. Because… moral compass.

You say that, but believe me, it DOES happen. I have personally witnessed some of the smartest people fall for the worst of the worst. Emotion is a crazy thing mang.

If a person sticks by a lover who is that malevolent, then they’re either uncaring or actually like the malevolence. Again, moral compass — or rather lack thereof.

Intelligence has very little to do with this. A person can be thick as a brick and have an outstanding moral compass and vice versa. Intelligence helps a person see through deception, but it won’t determine whether a person cares about the deception.

I don’t think it matters what Caithe’s Wild Hunt was — the point is, she seems to have lost all regard for her fellow sylvari, her friends, and, by the way, the entire world. She’s just as single-minded as Scarlet: she only sees her interpretation of right|wrong and is willing to do whatever it takes. Her saving grace is that she’s not a megalomaniac, just sociopathic.

If it were up to me, she’d be prohibited from entering the grove while the Pale Tree is weak and Ellen Kiel would assign a guard to accompany Caithe during any visit to Lion’s Arch. She lost my trust ages ago (story time); LS3 just confirms that she hasn’t changed or learned.

Hypocritical, self-righteous, and a flat-out liar to people who are ostensibly her friends? Yep. Does that earn the title of monster…? I wonder.

The act of keeping the nature of Sylvari as Mordrem secret could be argued to be a good thing. While I agree that the Sylvari have just as much right to choose their paths as anyone else, the fact was that their intended function was psychic domination/servitude to a vaguely phytodraconic eldritch abomination. I don’t know if I’d really want to inform a species less than twenty years old (almost all of them painfully naive for their extreme youth) “yep y’all are supposed to be thralls of a creature that might as well be a primeval force”. I can see why the Pale Tree would want that kept secret; she seems to love her children. Why would she want them subjected to the pressure/stigma of knowingly being Mordrem in the waiting (especially given that Zhaitan, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik had already made their presences in the world known, pointing toward Mordremoth’s relatively near waking?). Can you imagine the damage that would’ve done to the species-wide general feeling of vitality and enthusiasm for learning about the world? The Sylvari share their experiences in the Dream, and it’s apparently susceptible to negative experiences as much as positive ones if their collective horror at Riannoc’s death is to be taken as evidence. One might even argue it would’ve catalyzed an even swifter fall to Mordremoth when the time came, or the Nightmare Court standing proudly atop the population as nihilistic despair over their future overtook the collective memory.

By the same token…To learn and keep that secret, Caithe knowingly and willingly butchered a tribe of civil centaurs alongside her gleefully axe-crazy girlfriend, letting something like idle curiosity lead them to brutal slaughter. And then once she heard something she couldn’t unhear, she chose to murder Wynne (who seemed to be doing a fine job keeping her secret until Faolain and Caithe rolled in and had hurt no one thus far) so Faolain wouldn’t torture the answer out of her (again, for pure spiteful curiosity). Y’know, instead of killing Faolain, who apparently already had a known proclivity for TORTURING folks to get what she wanted and murder. Also, Caithe didn’t see fit to come forward with this knowledge when we really, really needed it. Like, say, before the Pact flew for the jungle and got counterganked from within by a psychic domination none of the Sylvari (who could’ve stayed home where they were relatively safe!) could’ve realistically seen coming, thus leading to hundreds, perhaps thousands of Sylvari lost to Mordremoth right then, and dozens more taken by the jungle itself, fearful allies rightfully trying to protect their own hides.

This is putting aside that she routinely ignored our wishes during the Sylvari stories in favor of her own ‘judgment’, waffling over her definitely evil ex, and flat-out ignoring the wishes of the Pale Tree to hamper us throughout HoT until the very end of everything (again on some kind of ‘I know best’ justification), and the horrendous death toll of non-Sylvari Pact personnel, potentially thanks to her aforementioned reluctance to speak. And then she comes back in LWS3 with her stuttering not-apology.

I can agree with the ironic sentiment that Canach is more trustworthy than she is at this juncture.

Faolain was monstrous, certainly. Scarlet Briar was monstrous. Caithe…never seemed to mean any lasting harm. She’s criminally shortsighted and self-righteous for sure. And, ironically, has probably caused more damage to her people and the world for that than either of the former for it.

Good intentions can make a monster, I suppose.

Highlord.7158:

Were I married or in such a serious relationship, and the person I loved went as evi las Faolin, and on my watch, not only would I fall out of love pretty kitten quick, I’ put them down personally.

But Princess Amidala continued to love Darth Vader. It’s not unheard of in fiction.

Caithe’s dead. Mordie took over her body to fake his own death. The remaining sylvari are just a network of terminals for his mind, but unlike the jungle they’re mobile, able to infiltrate all Tyrian society and continue his nefarious plan for world domination right under the noses of the PACT.

He’s so arrogant he even told us he’s a networked mind entity, knowing nobody would grasp the implications of it.

“There is no Trehearne. There is no Faolain. There is only Mordremoth. MuahahahahaHAHAHAHAH!”

All this talking is making me wonder if Caithe (and by extension, possibly the Firstborn themselves) is a part of the Pale Tree’s personality itself. She tends to embody distrust in general. That people can’t handle the truths she knows, that the people of Tyria are not worth trusting, that she can only trust her own judgement and nothing more. Similar to how Trahearne practically embodied self-doubt, Faolain embodied cruelty, etc.

Just did the story and I didn’t get a seriously negative vibe from her at all. I honestly felt that her “I’m a shadow” was just part of what she is…..her class has always been the “Thief”. In battle she pops in and out of shadows all the time like all her class does.

Yes, she’s shaken, she’s had a huge blow to her psyche and the group she fought so hard to rekindle is gone, but I think she’ll be in a decent part of this story.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I stopped trusting her. Left up to me, I wouldn’t let her within two zones of the egg or three zones of the pale tree.

• She conspired with another sylvari to hide a secret, denying her race and even its leaders/elders a chance to choose their own destiny.
• When confronted with the threat, she kept that secret, despite the fact that it obviously had huge potential to impact decisions made by her friends, the Commander, the Marshall, the Pact, and Tyria generally.
• She unilaterally decided that she knew better than anyone else how to protect the egg.
• She fails to show up to Eir’s funeral.
• She waits until the commander (aka Poohbah) is in danger before even attempting an apology. And let’s be clear: it wasn’t an apology. In effect, she said she’s sorry she got caught and that she’d make the same choices again.

*No better or worse than Pale tree who knew she was a dragon minion from the start. If the Pale tree deemed it a secret worth keeping from every sylvari, who was Caithe to decide otherwise?
*Once again, the Pale Tree had ample opportunity to warn Trahearne who she obviously cared for, but didn’t do so. Caithe has every reasonable doubt to not want to go over her Mother’s wishes.
*Yes, everyone makes decisions on the spot. Having one part of you say ‘save the egg’ while the a dragon is pounding in your head telling you to submit CAN cloud one’s judgment. Even Canach is willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, and he is not known for his love for firstborn.
*True, but the reason for that is unknown. Also note that other than Rytlock, no one else seemed to be even aware the funeral was happening. At least Rox was completely taken by surprise. Braham might have not even contacted Caithe.
*She is definitely not very good in social setting. While well meaning, her attempt to bring Destiny’s Edge together in PS was a horrible failure – she can’t read people very well. And she does try to explain herself and is obviously feeling bad about the whole thing.

So yeah, I’d give her a benefit of the doubt. Also note, she did try to go to the Pale Tree between Mordy’s death and Bloodstone Fen, looking for guidance. So it is highly unlikely she is the danger to PT, and she is obviously no longer quite as sure in her path as she was before.

Zania.8461:

So yeah, I’d give her a benefit of the doubt. Also note, she did try to go to the Pale Tree between Mordy’s death and Bloodstone Fen, looking for guidance. So it is highly unlikely she is the danger to PT, and she is obviously no longer quite as sure in her path as she was before.

I’m not convinced (see below). Going to the Pale Tree while she (the PT) is deathly ill doesn’t strike me as anything other than selfish — why isn’t she going to anyone else for guidance? If she’s repentant, if she knows now who her friends are, why isn’t she coming to us…before the events of Bloodstone Fen?

I’m glad she’s no longer sure about her path, but she’s still making the same decisions, unilaterally. She works under the assumption that she, and only she, can decide what’s best for Tyria.

Zania.8461:

• No better or worse than Pale tree who knew she was a dragon minion from the start. If the Pale tree deemed it a secret worth keeping from every sylvari, who was Caithe to decide otherwise?

I don’t fault Caithe for not saying anything originally. I do fault her for her part in Wynne’s death to preserve the secret and again for not saying anything once we learned that Mordremoth was waking up and the Pact, including tons of Sylvari, were going to confront him. I hold her responsible (in a small part) for the loss of the pact fleet — something could have been done to mitigate the potential danger of sylvari being close to live ordinance on a dirigible.

Zania.8461:

• Once again, the Pale Tree had ample opportunity to warn Trahearne who she obviously cared for, but didn’t do so. Caithe has every reasonable doubt to not want to go over her Mother’s wishes.

The Pale Tree is not her Mother, just a spokesperson (spokesplant? spokestree?). Caithe supposedly has a mind of her own; she chose to keep the secret.

So yes, again, I see Caithe as being selfish and afraid for herself to not at least let her friend, and fellow Firstborn, know about the sylvari’s origin.

Zania.8461:

• Yes, everyone makes decisions on the spot. Having one part of you say ‘save the egg’ while the a dragon is pounding in your head telling you to submit CAN cloud one’s judgment. Even Canach is willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, and he is not known for his love for firstborn.

The point I’m trying to make is that Caithe makes bad decisions. She doesn’t admit to this and she doesn’t try to make better ones, not in any practical sense. Most importantly, she doesn’t work as a team with her teammates.

Zania.8461:

• She is definitely not very good in social setting. While well meaning, her attempt to bring Destiny’s Edge together in PS was a horrible failure – she can’t read people very well. And she does try to explain herself and is obviously feeling bad about the whole thing.

It’s sweet to think that it matters all that much that she feels bad. My point remains: she refuses to change her behavior. Junkies feel bad when they get caught stealing from their family, but if they don’t get help, they’ll end up doing it again and again.

I don’t think Caithe is evil. I don’t think she’s an awful person. I do think she’s selfish and mentally unstable. I don’t trust her because she’s proven time & again that she will behave the same way again, despite her claims to apologize.

Canach changed and maybe Caithe can, too. But so far, there’s plenty of evidence that Canach is a work in progress and Caithe is still the same.

Oh, if the discussion is whether Caithe is somewhat off in the head, I have made a post on that a while back – her love story with Faolin (especially as presented in LS2) is the proof enough of that. My whole point was that she was certainly not evil, just tries to rely on her own (often poor) judgment too much.

One thing I’d like to disagree on is PT-Caithe relationship. Two points:
1) PT is literally the Mother of all sylvari. As in, their pods grew on the PT. She shaped them to look like humans (or so it was claimed, with more recent evidence it is highly debatable)
2) PT and her opinion are held in the extremely high regard by all (non Mordermguard or NC) sylvari. So if PT feels that the secret is worth hiding not only from Trahearne but also from the sylvari PC who had the Wyld Hunt to fight Mordremoth, I don’t see any sylvari deciding otherwise. Especially not one who just got forgiven for past transgression (PT really didn’t take Wynne’s death too well. Can’t say I blame her – has Caithe realized that Faolin is beyond saving anytime during LS2’s flashbacks, she could have easily saved Wynne and crippled NC at the same time by stabbing a different plant).

PT is playing a strange game – she is presented as purely benevolent flora, but she is as, if not more so, secretive than Caithe. No information is surrendered without absolute need. Sylvari PC should have been warned way in advance about what they were up against instead of leaving it for them to discover the information themselves. Scarlet could have been saved (and Mordy’s rise postponed) if the PT tried communicating with her earlier (if nothing else, Scarlet breaking should have signaled that other sylvari need an emergency briefing). There was plenty of time between Scarlet waking up Mordy and attack on PT to prepare sylvari, or at least warn others about their weakness. PT chose not to do so. Even later she regained her consciousness several times for long enough to warn people. She still did not. PC was left to discover it using memory seeds by which time it was too late to save the fleet.

I feel that both PT and Caithe failed the sylvari race, with PT carrying more blame due to being highest authority for the race.

Caithe is a child. She doesn’t have the wisdom of experience to guide her actions yet. Like most children, she can reason and intuit when something is wrong but not necessarily know how/when to deal with it. Even when they know they should say something, the fear of the consequences can often make a child keep silent even if it makes things worse for those around them.

The Pale Tree gifted all sylvari with certain traits and abilities and gave them the tools to get through life. But each sylvari still need to figure out how to live in the world.

Does that excuse her actions? Not really.
Does it mean she’s beyond redemption? I don’t think so.

I think she’s finally hit that breaking point where she can’t ignore or hide from her past anymore and now she needs to deal with it. She’s confused, lost and sorry about everything. She doesn’t know how to be better but she knows she wants to be. Its a first step in a long road of growing up.

Not to get too off-topic and beat a dead horse on the HoT storyline, but I think they missed out big time on not leveraging the Nightmare Court more than just turning Faolin into a weird vinetooth sock-puppet.

Imagine how much more interesting it could have been if you needed to strike a deal with the NC in order to get some of the missions completed. It could have set up a great dynamic of ‘yeah I can’t trust them, but can I use them to accomplish the mission? ’

Then you could throw in tensions that Caithe and/or Canach would have with using them and it could have made for a better overall story, imo.

Torsailr.8456:

Caithe is a child. She doesn’t have the wisdom of experience to guide her actions yet.

Caithe is NOT a child, though. There’s a good chance she’s older than everyone else we went into the jungle with (save Rytlock, who we met inside). And we know that if the PC is a sylvari, then she’s a couple decades older than them.

I would also remind you that she didn’t need to spend the first part of her life learning how to walk and talk, only to lose those memories into the mists of time and age. She may not have been born experienced, but she was at least on par with a 5 year old human from day one.

Her physical age is no excuse for her mental age.

Caithe was always our ally. She always focused on destroying Zaithan in main storyline. In “Edge of Destiny” after all the others lost hope in rebuilding the guild she was trying to calm them down and it was her who arranged the meeting in Lion’s Arch. Even after the lost battle with the crystal dragon she was said to travel around dragonbrand collecting Kralkatorrik’s blood hoping it would help in the future encounter with him. She killed Wynne believing this would protect the secret of sylvari which could cause a tragedy for the race. She trusted herself in this situation as when she stole the egg which was her Wyld Hunt. I think we can forgive her the thievery which was caused by Mordremoth trying to control her along with the Wyld Hunt. During the fight with Mordremoth she suspected that after Mordremoth’s death, she would die with all her race and she was still willing to do it. I trust her and I believe with Faolain’s and Mordremoth’s deaths she will be able to trust others and will become once again a strong ally for us.

Caithe is an ambiguous and divisive character, for sure. I liked her a lot during the original story, partly because I mainly play sylvari. LS2 … geez, what a train wreck. Her being Faolain’s mindless patsy to the point of murdering a whole tribe of peaceful beings and very nearly watching Faolain torture a fellow syvlari to death made me loathe her, and combined with the sketchy behavior surrounding the egg and keeping a secret that nearly wiped out the whole Pact, it’s certainly understandable that a lot of players aren’t keen on her anymore to say the least.

That said, I actually like the fact that Mordremoth’s influence messed her up so much. For an Elder Dragon whose sphere of influence included Mind, it was pretty pitiful when it came to dominating anyone but nameless redshirts, at least during HoT proper when it should have been at its strongest. Both Canach and the sylvari PC just shrug it off without much effort or any apparent lasting effects, and I don’t like that at all. That is why Caithe’s behavior in LS3 went some way in making me like her again. It’s a good thing when characters aren’t so impossibly resilient that nothing can mess with them, plus she is trying to do the right thing again.

I’d like to be able to rebuild my relationship with my “big sister” and former mentor. When push comes to shove, I still like her more than all the new NPCs.

Wreave.2138:

RyuDragnier.9476:

The Faolain thing I blame on blind love, something any of us can get irl, where we ignore all the evils the person we love does because we care about them that much.

No. 100% No. I wouldn’t fall in love with someone who was malevolent in the first place; and if they turned to it or revealed it was there all along, I would fall out of love immediately. Because… moral compass.

That is so easy to say when you haven’t actually had that happen to you. We often fall in love with people who turn out to be so different than we believed them to be. Often, abused significant others stay in the relationship because they still love the person that is abusing them and they think they can change them. Caithe is a classic example of this. She kept believing she could bring Faolain back from the dark side.

As far as proving that she cannot work with others, I also question that. It was she, not any of the others that was working toward putting DE back together. Our characters witnessed this.

I believe she has made many, many mistakes. I don’t believe her motivations were selfish at all. She just thought she was doing the right thing, but did so without thinking things through.

I believe she wants redemption. She wanted it for Destiny’s Edge and now she is seeking it for herself personally.

Has she been stupid in the past? Most certainly. Do I believe she is trying to atone for that stupidity? I truly do.

Neurion.4086:

I wished she had died in Trahearne’s stead. This sums up pretty much my feelings towards her and her actions.

Personally, I liked her character in HoT and where she is now. Not to go into real life comparisons of abusive relationships regarding Caithe and Faolain, I did like how she was running only because she didn’t know who to trust. The campaign did a terrible job at telling a genocidal war, there were snippets here and there around Sylvari throughout the Meguumas but it never carried as much weight as the teaser at the end of Season 2 implied.

In that little cutscene we see Canach fighting off a group of humans, obviously considering him like a Mordrem and seeking to destroy him.

But actually playing the game, as I said, it was a little bland. It didn’t have much gravity to it so when suspending disbelief, I thought Caithe’s development was great when considering the atmosphere teases made it out to be.

Exactly. Caithe is the only character in whom both the internal and the external conflict actually manifested in any meaningful manner, and while she undeniably did some really bad things in the past, I think it’s a little unfair that she gets “singled out” in that way. The writers have some good ideas, but never really explore them, and that is regrettable and unsatisfying. Anti-sylvari sentiments, sylvari identity crises, the fate of the Soundless as the most vulnerable group, Trahearne’s death, the condition of the Pale Tree, the Commander’s reaction to her secrecy especially if they’re sylvari … all of that is begging to be explored, and I fear it won’t be.

Skipping all the giant posts.

Do note, EXPLICITLY. Caithe doesn’t charge into slaughtering the centaurs with a kittening grin. She hears Faolien scream in terror/pain, rushes outside to see her lover and a centaur in combat. And rushes to defend her love who has apparently been attacked.

And then things escalate.

She’s shady, yes. But the hate for her is so kittening overblown I’m completely and utterly sick of it. She’s been shady her ENTIRE LIFE. She hasn’t changed that much, yet the Pkittenerally goes from trusting her, to unsure, to utter hatred threatening to kill her if she twitches.

The Pkittenerally threatened to murder Canach for listening in on her talking about the egg, then suddenly is best pals with him in HoT. Canach has also tried to murder the PC, where Caithe has not. We’ve known Caithe for a very long time, we’ve hardly met Canach.

Yes, she made mistakes. But she’s not been hostile toward the egg or the commander. She’s never been hostile toward the commander. Her guarding the dragon not only adds more protection to it, but it also actually removes her from those who would want to harm her for earlier, ‘mistakes’.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I stopped trusting her. Left up to me, I wouldn’t let her within two zones of the egg or three zones of the pale tree.

• She conspired with another sylvari to hide a secret, denying her race and even its leaders/elders a chance to choose their own destiny.
• When confronted with the threat, she kept that secret, despite the fact that it obviously had huge potential to impact decisions made by her friends, the Commander, the Marshall, the Pact, and Tyria generally.
• She unilaterally decided that she knew better than anyone else how to protect the egg.
• She fails to show up to Eir’s funeral.
• She waits until the commander (aka Poohbah) is in danger before even attempting an apology. And let’s be clear: it wasn’t an apology. In effect, she said she’s sorry she got caught and that she’d make the same choices again.

This i agree with completely. I cant believe the choices PC made in the last instance, particulary this one.
Why by dwayna does he suddedly trust a sylvari who stole the egg she knew the pc was suppoused to keep? Id keep her away from egg or dispose of her immediately upon meeting her in hot.
It makes the story so one dimensional too.. You never get any major betrayal from people you trust and then end them, it would be really LAME with Lazarus, given that he is once again a new character, but betrayal AND death of a long known one would make n impact- everybody excpects lazarus to betray us. Also to us personaly lazarus did nothing yet, but Caithe caused death of half the pact, Eir and Trahearane, close comrades of the pc.
But no, lets trust her again..

Krinstin.6287:

This i agree with completely. I cant believe the choices PC made in the last instance, particulary this one.
Why by dwayna does he suddedly trust a sylvari who stole the egg she knew the pc was suppoused to keep? Id keep her away from egg or dispose of her immediately upon meeting her in hot.
It makes the story so one dimensional too.. You never get any major betrayal from people you trust and then end them, it would be really LAME with Lazarus, given that he is once again a new character, but betrayal AND death of a long known one would make n impact- everybody excpects lazarus to betray us. Also to us personaly lazarus did nothing yet, but Caithe caused death of half the pact, Eir and Trahearane, close comrades of the pc.
But no, lets trust her again..

Why by dwayna is the PC completely trusting a known criminal who had already attempted to MURDER the PC, as well as causing severe damage to southsun and LA and making the entire area much more dangerous then it was?

Why would the PC trust somebody they had literally threatened not long ago with outright MURDER, simply for overhearing them talk about the egg?

^both are about Canach.

Caithe did not kill half the pact, Trahearne, or Eir. What do you think would’ve happen if just before they launched the fleet, Caithe and the commander comes back going “GUYS, SYLVARI ARE DRAGON MINIONS!” Yay for destroying the pact utterly from within mates.

Caithe actually did nothing besides you know, fleeing with the egg. She never showed hostility toward the commander, or threatened the egg.

Also, big thing that kittened me off with HoT. After Tarir’s instance, Marjory mentions that Caithe disappeared. The Commander mentions something about Caithe showing up again, in a neutral tone. NO MALICE. When Caithe shows up, the commander hates her with every fiber of her soul and literally tells Braham to murder Caithe if she even moves.

Why the hell did the commander suddenly develop such insane hatred? It’s out of place and unexplained.

Kalavier.1097:

Krinstin.6287:

This i agree with completely. I cant believe the choices PC made in the last instance, particulary this one.
Why by dwayna does he suddedly trust a sylvari who stole the egg she knew the pc was suppoused to keep? Id keep her away from egg or dispose of her immediately upon meeting her in hot.
It makes the story so one dimensional too.. You never get any major betrayal from people you trust and then end them, it would be really LAME with Lazarus, given that he is once again a new character, but betrayal AND death of a long known one would make n impact- everybody excpects lazarus to betray us. Also to us personaly lazarus did nothing yet, but Caithe caused death of half the pact, Eir and Trahearane, close comrades of the pc.
But no, lets trust her again..

Why by dwayna is the PC completely trusting a known criminal who had already attempted to MURDER the PC, as well as causing severe damage to southsun and LA and making the entire area much more dangerous then it was?

Why would the PC trust somebody they had literally threatened not long ago with outright MURDER, simply for overhearing them talk about the egg?

^both are about Canach.

Caithe did not kill half the pact, Trahearne, or Eir. What do you think would’ve happen if just before they launched the fleet, Caithe and the commander comes back going “GUYS, SYLVARI ARE DRAGON MINIONS!” Yay for destroying the pact utterly from within mates.

Caithe actually did nothing besides you know, fleeing with the egg. She never showed hostility toward the commander, or threatened the egg.

Also, big thing that kittened me off with HoT. After Tarir’s instance, Marjory mentions that Caithe disappeared. The Commander mentions something about Caithe showing up again, in a neutral tone. NO MALICE. When Caithe shows up, the commander hates her with every fiber of her soul and literally tells Braham to murder Caithe if she even moves.

Why the hell did the commander suddenly develop such insane hatred? It’s out of place and unexplained.

If the commander was told FAR beforehand, like after ls1, he and Trahearane COULD come up with something.
Caithe KNEW scarlet knew about them beight modrem, you can see it in the TA aetherblade path and other places.

There was no need to tell everyone, only Trahearane and maybye your group.
Getting the sylvari back to the pale tree for protection, with the commanders of the attack leading the battle instead, and so on.
In the end we would just need to get to tarir (which would the egg show us in vision) and rata novus (could be found the same way) for info and hiding the egg.
The only problem would be getting into Modremoths mind, which could eighter be done by sylvari pc or again trahearane who would go with you.

Many lives would be saved. And before you say that the non-sylvari pc would go on murder spree- they have many or had many sylvari friends. And given how thepale tree works they could easily come to this idea.

Had we known this very important information, many lives would be saved.

And based on what you say- cannach had a reason to attack us aswell. He was the sole survivor of rata sum experimentation. No wonder hed hate other races and do crazy things as a revenge., but that is not my point, i am talking about caithe.

“Yes, let’s go to somebody who has had some fears about his leadership against the dragons, and tell him he’s a dragon minion.”

All you say is theory. Suddenly withdrawing all sylvari from the Pact units would rare a ton of suspiscion. There is no promise we would’ve seen Tarir or Rata Novus in a vision, or that we’d reach either location with the help the grounded pact forces did provide in a sense.

Lives may be saved because of the fleet not going into the jungle, but many would be lost by the Mordrem charge (which is partly what the fleet bombarded), and the conflict between sylvari and other races.

Think about it, we got this big summit of all the races to fight against Mordremoth, then suddenly all the Sylvari pull out and retreat to the grove/surrounding areas without saying why to the other races. Trahearne and/or sylvari PC refuse to comment. That’s going to do lovely things for the whole “UNITY!” aspect.

Caithe made mistakes, but the hate is overdone and frankly more annoying and sad then spawning interesting discussions.

Kalavier.1097:

“Yes, let’s go to somebody who has had some fears about his leadership against the dragons, and tell him he’s a dragon minion.”

All you say is theory. Suddenly withdrawing all sylvari from the Pact units would rare a ton of suspiscion. There is no promise we would’ve seen Tarir or Rata Novus in a vision, or that we’d reach either location with the help the grounded pact forces did provide in a sense.

Lives may be saved because of the fleet not going into the jungle, but many would be lost by the Mordrem charge (which is partly what the fleet bombarded), and the conflict between sylvari and other races.

Think about it, we got this big summit of all the races to fight against Mordremoth, then suddenly all the Sylvari pull out and retreat to the grove/surrounding areas without saying why to the other races. Trahearne and/or sylvari PC refuse to comment. That’s going to do lovely things for the whole “UNITY!” aspect.

Caithe made mistakes, but the hate is overdone and frankly more annoying and sad then spawning interesting discussions.

Had been afraid to lead. But was okay with commander at his side.
Makes mistakes? Like forshaking half the pact?
Also i said for example, there are many other things that couldve been done.

Look how easily, after all the death they have caused, after people finding out they “betrayed” the pact and killed theyr friends, fathers, mothers, siblings etc. They IMMEDIATELY no longer care and are just happy that modremoth is dead. Just look at how nicely the commander wrapped it up on the funeral.
They couldve done the same, knowing the risks of the sylvari. And with the order of whispers and support from the master of whispers, they could surely come up with something.
Modremoth would be dead and no one would care anymore. Just like it is done in the story.

If you are that annoyed with the hatred of Caithe, dont reply to players who want her dead in the first place and just avoid contact with them.
I will not back down from my opinion and neighter will you.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Zania.8461:

So yeah, I’d give her a benefit of the doubt. Also note, she did try to go to the Pale Tree between Mordy’s death and Bloodstone Fen, looking for guidance. So it is highly unlikely she is the danger to PT, and she is obviously no longer quite as sure in her path as she was before.

I’m not convinced (see below). Going to the Pale Tree while she (the PT) is deathly ill doesn’t strike me as anything other than selfish — why isn’t she going to anyone else for guidance? If she’s repentant, if she knows now who her friends are, why isn’t she coming to us…before the events of Bloodstone Fen?

I’m glad she’s no longer sure about her path, but she’s still making the same decisions, unilaterally. She works under the assumption that she, and only she, can decide what’s best for Tyria.

---

Zania.8461:

• No better or worse than Pale tree who knew she was a dragon minion from the start. If the Pale tree deemed it a secret worth keeping from every sylvari, who was Caithe to decide otherwise?

I don’t fault Caithe for not saying anything originally. I do fault her for her part in Wynne’s death to preserve the secret and again for not saying anything once we learned that Mordremoth was waking up and the Pact, including tons of Sylvari, were going to confront him. I hold her responsible (in a small part) for the loss of the pact fleet — something could have been done to mitigate the potential danger of sylvari being close to live ordinance on a dirigible.

Zania.8461:

• Once again, the Pale Tree had ample opportunity to warn Trahearne who she obviously cared for, but didn’t do so. Caithe has every reasonable doubt to not want to go over her Mother’s wishes.

The Pale Tree is not her Mother, just a spokesperson (spokesplant? spokestree?). Caithe supposedly has a mind of her own; she chose to keep the secret.

So yes, again, I see Caithe as being selfish and afraid for herself to not at least let her friend, and fellow Firstborn, know about the sylvari’s origin.

Zania.8461:

• Yes, everyone makes decisions on the spot. Having one part of you say ‘save the egg’ while the a dragon is pounding in your head telling you to submit CAN cloud one’s judgment. Even Canach is willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, and he is not known for his love for firstborn.

The point I’m trying to make is that Caithe makes bad decisions. She doesn’t admit to this and she doesn’t try to make better ones, not in any practical sense. Most importantly, she doesn’t work as a team with her teammates.

Zania.8461:

• She is definitely not very good in social setting. While well meaning, her attempt to bring Destiny’s Edge together in PS was a horrible failure – she can’t read people very well. And she does try to explain herself and is obviously feeling bad about the whole thing.

It’s sweet to think that it matters all that much that she feels bad. My point remains: she refuses to change her behavior. Junkies feel bad when they get caught stealing from their family, but if they don’t get help, they’ll end up doing it again and again.

---

I don’t think Caithe is evil. I don’t think she’s an awful person. I do think she’s selfish and mentally unstable. I don’t trust her because she’s proven time & again that she will behave the same way again, despite her claims to apologize.

Canach changed and maybe Caithe can, too. But so far, there’s plenty of evidence that Canach is a work in progress and Caithe is still the same.

You. I like you. You make all the good points and even add up to them, well done.

Untrustworthy or not, hidden agendas or not, Caithe is still my favourite member of Destiny’s Edge… Well, the now defunct Destiny’s Edge.

Caithe is a lot of things but selfish is not one of them. I have no idea where that comes from. We know she’s had two goals throughout most her life. One, save the world from destruction by Elder Dragons. Two, protect the sylvari people no matter the cost. She also believes these two are in direct conflict with one another since killing Mordremoth could possibly destroy the sylvari.

In the end, Caithe wants what’s best for all (end the Elder Dragons). If she were truly selfish, why wouldn’t she just run off with Faolain and let the world burn? She would be happy at least.

Caithe was also the DE member who fought the hardest to get them back together while most of the others let their own personal issues get in the way… I’m not at all seeing how Caithe is the selfish one.