Guild Wars 2

During a recent webcast whilst discussing Taimi, the subject of ESRB ratings was mentioned and in particular the rules regarding the depiction of ‘minors in peril’ which contributed to the design decision to place Taimi in a golem.

This lead me to thinking about whether in fact there is any scenario in which Taimi could be killed? Do the ESRB rules forbid Anet from considering this as part of the story and if so, is Taimi in effect immortal?

Now……during the conclusion of the Scarlett story I was immediately struck by the fact that Taimi was notable by her absence during the final scenes. Finding it rather curious that she had been left behind somewhere, when her goal was to meet with Scarlett i came up with 2 conclusions.

Either: ESRB rules kicked in and the situation was too ‘perilous’ for her to be included or:

ESRB rules didn’t apply and the widely anticipated ‘death’ of one of the new major characters was removed at the last minute to avoid a PR disaster.

Was the plan for Taimi to die at scarlett’s hands? Was that the stunning conclusion to the series that we had been promised? Certainly from a storytelling point of view and given that Taimi seems to be by far the most liked of all the new characters, it would have been a dramatic conclusion and would have gone someway towards both rescuing the otherwise lackluster story and silencing those that strongly criticized comparisons to game of thrones .

So did christina’s wonderful post about Taimi cause the team to rethink the story? I have no doubt that if Taimi had died the outcry would have been biblical in proportions and Anet would have had PR disaster on its hands.

Thoughts?

Well, they killed Raisin Face from outside the LA bank, so why not Taimi?

That said, they won’t do that for a long time. Just like Braham, Kasmeer and the other ones, Taimi has a unique model.
They wouldn’t spend much time making such a character if they were going to kill it off quickly.

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

Well, they killed Raisin Face from outside the LA bank, so why not Taimi?

True, but Taimi’s demise would have to be shown.

That said, they won’t do that for a long time. Just like Braham, Kasmeer and the other ones, Taimi has a unique model.
They wouldn’t spend much time making such a character if they were going to kill it off quickly.

Because sometimes that is what you do in order to create a meaningful’ story that players engage with.

Taimi can be killed maybe when she is in adulthood? Asurans have only 5-10% longer lifespan than humans.

Daroon.1736:

This lead me to thinking about whether in fact there is any scenario in which Taimi could be killed? Do the ESRB rules forbid Anet from considering this as part of the story and if so, is Taimi in effect immortal?

No, the ESRB rules do not forbid it. Taimi is by no means immortal for storyline purposes.

http://www.esrb.org/index-js.jsp

Exosferatu.2961:

Taimi can be killed maybe when she is in adulthood? Asurans have only 5-10% longer lifespan than humans.

True.

Did no one else find her non appearance in the final scenes odd?

No, because she’s in the camp outside Vigil Keep asking about Scarlet. She doesn’t go to any of the final battles.

Is that the same ESRB that decided Smash Brothers: Melee doesn’t contain violent?

Who was Raisin Face please?

If the situation called for the tragic death of such a potentially interesting character then yes, Taimi would definitely bring a few tear jerkers to their worst state.

I actually think Taimi dying would be the best possible twist, because it’d show how great heroes no matter how difficult their lives can still die, that said, if she does die, I believe she deserves to die a heroic death, and go out with an epic bang, taking out a dragon or something incredible.

So short answer, Yes, but only if she gets to go in some ridiculously epic manner.

Mortifer.2946:

Who was Raisin Face please?

One of the children outside the bank in LA who had this dialogue:
Progeny: “Your face looks funny. All smooshed and weird.” Charr: “No, your face is funny — just like a little raisin.”

Apparently the Asuran child died in the attack.

Wou… they killed a child? “Nice”….

Mortifer.2946:

Wou… they killed a child? “Nice”….

Iirc, the numbers given by ANet for civilian deaths in the attack was something like 40 to 50k people. Some of those were obviously children, as well as elderly and invalids. I can’t find the post though where I read that so could be wrong.

So they can kill children, including Taimi. What they can’t do is show it. It will have to be off camera and we get told about it.

I wonder where did you see those numbers. I only read about it on forums…

Mortifer.2946:

I wonder where did you see those numbers. I only read about it on forums…

It probably was on the forum. I don’t remember if they had links to a direct quote from ANet or not and the search function for the forum is awful.

Daroon.1736:

Was the plan for Taimi to die at scarlett’s hands? -snip- it would have been a dramatic conclusion and would have gone someway towards both rescuing the otherwise lackluster story and silencing those that strongly criticized comparisons to game of thrones .

Tho… routinely killing off highly liked characters may INCREASE the game of thrones comparisons…

So is it just the conspiracy theorist in me or does anyone else think that her death might have originally been part of this story arc and was changed for the reasons I stated?

I think it has more to do with the fact (as they stated in the live-stream about her) that they aren’t really allowed (with their current rating) to show situations where children are put in perilous situations.
Killing her would most likely include such a situation, so the only way they could do it would basically be off-screen, which would make it quite pointless.

I don’t think they planned to kill off Taimi. Sure, she is well liked, but she is also extremely new.

Introducing a major character just to kill it a few weeks later is flawed writing. Considering anet’s writers do this for a living, they no-doubt understand all the unspoken rules of story-crafting.

Also, they gave us a ton of hints into Taimi’s background. Her illness, being an orphan, having Zojja as a mentor. Those all tell us that there are future plans for Taimi’s character development—if she had been created to die, time would not have been wasted on them.

Taimi wasn’t at the final confrontation because 1.she is new, and 2.she is a child.

Before you develop a brand new character, you have to make sure the old characters are well-rounded. Putting Taimi in the confrontation would have drawn vital attention away from Kasmeer, Marjory, Braham, and Rox.

As for Taimi being a child—do you honestly think the adult characters would allow her to come? Heck no. They may not be as uptight as Logan, but they’re not idiots either. They would never allow a little kid to confront the most deadly villain Tyria has seen in centuries—no matter how talented that kid is.

Not only would bringing Taimi go against the characters’ morals, it would go against their common sense. Nobody is going to trust a child to have their back in deadly combat. Would you?

I don’t think game ratings have anything to do with it. It’s about the characters.

Taimi may die at a later date. Heck, any of them could. But we’ll no doubt see a lot more development before that time.

Daroon.1736:

Exosferatu.2961:

Taimi can be killed maybe when she is in adulthood? Asurans have only 5-10% longer lifespan than humans.

True.

Did no one else find her non appearance in the final scenes odd?

I found Braham, Kasmeer, Marjory and Rox’s appearances in the final scenes odd. Taimi’s absence made sense.

If they can’t kill her in perilous situations then they could have her succumb to her illness but I don’t think the writers want a sad story like that.

Weindrasi I flat out disagree that killing a major character shortly after introducing them is flawed writing. Some of the most memorable moments in stories come from a major character biting the dust early on.

Joss Whedon actually spoke about how he wanted to have a character in the main credits of Buffy die early on in the story for the added impact. He later did this with a character in Angel. The idea that there should be a rule about when a major character can or can’t die, that I find to be flawed.

As some have said, Taimi not being in the final scenes isn’t that odd. Rox and Braham have pretty much been in this from the beginning. Marjory and Kasmeer from around the middle. Those four have much more involvement in this battle than Taimi does, who just got introduced recently.

Weindrasi.3805:

Introducing a major character just to kill it a few weeks later is flawed writing. Considering anet’s writers do this for a living, they no-doubt understand all the unspoken rules of story-crafting.

I have to fully agree with Shiren regarding your first sentence – To go back to my original Game of Thrones reference, one of the reasons why it has become so popular is that one does feel genuine peril for the characters when watching or viewing because those ‘unspoken rules’ of not killing off characters unexpectedly, don’t apply.

Daroon.1736:

Weindrasi.3805:

Introducing a major character just to kill it a few weeks later is flawed writing. Considering anet’s writers do this for a living, they no-doubt understand all the unspoken rules of story-crafting.

I have to fully agree with Shiren regarding your first sentence – To go back to my original Game of Thrones reference, one of the reasons why it has become so popular is that one does feel genuine peril for the characters when watching or viewing because those ‘unspoken rules’ of not killing off characters unexpectedly, don’t apply.

It’s not about the character itself, but about the character’s usefulness. If a character’s only use is “die real quick so players feel bad”, it’s still flawed writing. To date, Taimi has done nothing truly useful. She has showed up at events and given us a taste of her personality—that’s it. To kill her off now, just because it would make people sad, is a lazy way of creating drama. Ultimately, said drama would only affect the player base—not the characters and world—because Taimi hasn’t made any lasting marks in it.

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

Well, they killed Raisin Face from outside the LA bank, so why not Taimi?

I laughed so much from this, I feel bad for not feeling bad about the comment.

Daroon.1736:

Exosferatu.2961:

Taimi can be killed maybe when she is in adulthood? Asurans have only 5-10% longer lifespan than humans.

True.

Did no one else find her non appearance in the final scenes odd?

Not at all. Based on the information provided via the stream about her, they won’t be portraying her in active battle. To have her in the final scene would imply that she actively participated in the battle, which would go against even her golem’s basic programming… to get her the hell out of dodge in exactly that type of situation. We know that the other 4 actively participated, Rox and Marjory both show up as commanders. Braham is with Rox, Kasmeer is with Marjory.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Daroon.1736:

Exosferatu.2961:

Taimi can be killed maybe when she is in adulthood? Asurans have only 5-10% longer lifespan than humans.

True.

Did no one else find her non appearance in the final scenes odd?

Not at all. Based on the information provided via the stream about her, they won’t be portraying her in active battle. To have her in the final scene would imply that she actively participated in the battle, which would go against even her golem’s basic programming… to get her the hell out of dodge in exactly that type of situation. We know that the other 4 actively participated, Rox and Marjory both show up as commanders. Braham is with Rox, Kasmeer is with Marjory.

As long as she’s inside her golem during battle it’s fine with the ESRB.
Don’t forget Taimi fought alongside us during Marionette too.

Naetell.3815:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Daroon.1736:

Exosferatu.2961:

Taimi can be killed maybe when she is in adulthood? Asurans have only 5-10% longer lifespan than humans.

True.

Did no one else find her non appearance in the final scenes odd?

Not at all. Based on the information provided via the stream about her, they won’t be portraying her in active battle. To have her in the final scene would imply that she actively participated in the battle, which would go against even her golem’s basic programming… to get her the hell out of dodge in exactly that type of situation. We know that the other 4 actively participated, Rox and Marjory both show up as commanders. Braham is with Rox, Kasmeer is with Marjory.

As long as she’s inside her golem during battle it’s fine with the ESRB.
Don’t forget Taimi fought alongside us during Marionette too.

Isn’t it technically her golem fighting, and not her? I mean, from my understand it’s simply programmed to protect her, which sure, in some instances would mean fighting in defense, but it can’t actively seek or initiate battle. Its programming is also supposed to remove her from situations, which I’m assuming is based on variety of variables such as scale, statistical chance of harm, blah blah. Then again… they did say it could turn itself into a bunker of sorts too, sort of the ‘hunker down and take cover’ aspect.

Meh, maybe not.

It doubt she was supposed to die originally. These Living Story updates are made one to two months in advance, so they likely didn’t have any feedback on her when that decision would have been made.

Which means there is no reason to kill her off, since it doesn’t make any sense dramatically. We were just introduced to her, most of her story-hooks aren’t resolved in any way and she barely had any kind of story arc so far. (apart from warming up to Braham and changing from admiring Scarlet to wanting her dead / be a better person than her after seeing the destruction she brought)

It just would be a waste to kill her off. I haven’t watching Game of Thrones or read the books, but from what I know there the “anyone can die” kinda thing fits into the setting that seems to be rather dark and serious. Whereas GW2 is on average more of an optimistic classic fantasy adventure. While characters, possibly even somewhat important ones will die, it doesn’t happen all that often.

Also it would just be repeating a mistake that was heavily criticized in the Personal Story.

For some reason, killing children in video games is okay as long as you don’t actually see it. Take Fallout 3 for example, you can’t kill children, but you can blow up a town where a few children live. You don’t actually see the children die so then it’s ok (hypocritical if you ask me).

I never understood what the big deal is. It’s just a video game, nothing is real, when you kill a child you don’t actually kill a child, just a simulation..

I also find it funny that murder, genocide, doing drugs, robbery, mutilation, slavery and many other horrible acts are all fine, but when people see a child die all hell breaks loose.

AsgarZigel.4530:

It doubt she was supposed to die originally. These Living Story updates are made one to two months in advance, so they likely didn’t have any feedback on her when that decision would have been made.

Which means there is no reason to kill her off, since it doesn’t make any sense dramatically. We were just introduced to her, most of her story-hooks aren’t resolved in any way and she barely had any kind of story arc so far. (apart from warming up to Braham and changing from admiring Scarlet to wanting her dead / be a better person than her after seeing the destruction she brought)

It just would be a waste to kill her off. I haven’t watching Game of Thrones or read the books, but from what I know there the “anyone can die” kinda thing fits into the setting that seems to be rather dark and serious. Whereas GW2 is on average more of an optimistic classic fantasy adventure. While characters, possibly even somewhat important ones will die, it doesn’t happen all that often.

Also it would just be repeating a mistake that was heavily criticized in the Personal Story.

Dark and serious don’t fit into Guild Wars 2?

Did you miss the Foefire, the Searing of Ascalon? The Fall of Orr?

This setting was “built” on dark foundations and is likely going to “stay” dark for a very long time.

Guild Wars 1 showed how dark and cruel the world of Tyria is, and even in 2, towards the last 30 levels we saw many people we loved die fighting Zhaitan.

If you wanted a happier fantasy setting you’ve probably not been paying much attention, Guild Wars was never “intended” to be “happy”.

Magical? Beautiful? Yes, happy? Not really.

Its a Dark Fantasy hiding in light colours, dressing you with that romantic illusion that the world is safe, and that everyone is secure.

The cruel reality is never that comforting.

Don’t get me wrong, I do agree that Taimi dying now would be a waste, she needs to be important before she can die, but that doesn’t mean she “cant” die.

“IF” a situation arises where by her death could be emotion provoking and deep, then definitely, let her die, that would be quite shocking and tragic, even if one saw it coming.

I still had feels knowing what was about to happen with Sieran and Tybalt and Forg, I can still know whats about to happen and get heartbroken because of it.

Or, have a shock twist, have someone completely unexpected die, like Eir, out of the blue, that’d rile up some eyes and set off some anger.

What matters is “how” a char dies and “why” they are killed off, a char has to be important, somehow, to the majority of people involved with them.

The loss of a character has to be meaningful, be it the loss of a wise old woman leading a nation into peace, causing it to fall into chaos. The loss of a young prodigy child that could have been so much more, who had dreams, hopes, things we got to know and care about, and wished back then we might have made reality. The great hero who saved us once against a tyrant of evil and is tragically ripped from our eyes in a brutal assault that takes them from us forever.

Death is important in context, not in content, it cant just be “and that guy you never knew dies because he was nice” it needs to be “the char you came to grow on and like is now GONE forever and you are NOT getting them back, no matter how much you try.”

That, is when it hurts, that, is when you know the pain of loss.

So again, can Taimi die? IF the situation demands it, yes.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

-snip-

Guild wars 1 was dark.
Guild Wars 2 is a children’s playground.

Players, you cannot protect everyone. Stop trying. :P

I’m more interested about Krytan licensing law, as Taimi will apparently meet us in the Dead End Bar next week.

She isn’t human, so do ‘the rules’ still apply?

Of course they can, dealing with that ESRB/PEGI useless rubbish is not mandatory.

Zeivu.3615:

She isn’t human, so do ’the rules’ still apply?

Nobody knows what rules apply to what, the whole system is clusterkitten that doesn’t reflect 99% of the content you’ll find in a videogame, is just another stupid attempt at controlling and classifying creative works that ends up being nothing more than a useless barrier.

Thankfully digital distribution and indie development are moving away from them.

Mortifer.2946:

Wou... they killed a child? "Nice"....

Yes, children die too.

Deal with it.

There’s no way their plan was ever to kill Taimi in season 1. They just barely introduced her. That would be a total waste of a good character.

I don’t think they planned to kill any character in the final confrontation. It’s too predictable. If any of the major characters will die it will be after we’ve had more chance to explore them, and at a completely unexpected moment.