Guild Wars 2

Greetings and salutations!

As the second season of the Living Story gains momentum, we hurtle hellbent towards a battle with Guild Wars 2’s iconic enemies, the Elder Dragons. But all is not well in the land of Tyria. The last dragon battle was somewhat…lacking, to put it kindly, and the looming possibility of further draconic warfare merits some introspection and suggestions. In an attempt to help this process, I humbly submit the following array of constructive criticism over Ye Olde State Of Dragons in GW2.

There are five major problems with the state of dragons in the game that need to be considered. Firstly, we have the problem of looming threats, or complete lack thereof, the fact that the dragon minions just don’t seem to be doing much of anything. Secondly, we have the lack of character in the dragons themselves and the distinct possibility for boredom with fighting six different “ancient and unknowable” foes. Then we have the absence of variety of dragon minions (easily remedied with effort) and the corresponding lack of variation with the heroic forces that fight them (hard to fix, but well worth it). And finally, we have the elephant in the room….the battle for Arah.

My suggestions are far from perfect, but perhaps they’ll shed light on the potential pitfalls the Living Story may face in the coming months and offer advice to improve this epic journey. I sincerely hope in the future to experience a draconic foe that feels like this, rather than this.

Here we go!

Yes, please. Please hire this individual.

I admit, that battle that played out would be kinda cool to see. Not sure how to implement it as an actual scene in the game but it would be awesome!

I do agree. However Dragonspawn swarming same areas over and over again… it can quickly grow boring.

What if instead swarming maps mobs would swarm zones. I mean, let’s say they begin from Frostgorge and once succeed, go to Wayfarer, then Gendarran and Lornar’s Pass. That could feel more dangerous.

Besides, I’ve never liked the idea of dragon of size of the Central Park.
Smaller foes have the story advantage. They can talk by themselves, threaten PC directly, have rich story.

At the same time enormous dragon is not likely to affect PC directly, threaten us. Every encounter requires hell lot of work on fight, scenery, story design to impress people playing. It’s most likely to be multi-staged in various locations with tons of models.

But the biggest culprit for me when it comes to Elder Dragons is that they’re all awaken and… nothing happens. They know that we’re the biggest threat but they’re more likely to wait in queue.

“Sup Mordy, wanna be next? I’ll just chill with Jor and MC Kralk in here. Give them a good bumpin’, lizzy!”

What if players could choose the next dragon? Give us a good presentation and let us decide.

Let’s say, both Primordus and Kralkatorrik are rising to power. We would have to choose our focus, because we’re not kitten enough to take both at the same time. Let’s assume we choose Kralk, save Citadel and Ascalon, but whole Coast with Metrica Province and Rata Sum get annihilated by Primordus as the price.

If only there was more of this on the forums, rather then the usual… ‘THIS SUX! You ruined this game! Developers clearly don’t know what they are doing! Good Going TRASHNET!’… kind of garbage that is usually spewed here.

+1, for good ideas and well though out feedback on things, Shriketalon. Where can I sign up for your newsletter?

Joking and sarcasm aside, the OP brings a lot of good ideas to light here, and touches upon one of my biggest criticisms of this game.
Arah story and the fall of Zhaitan.
I don’t know if it’s been officially stated that it was rushed and unfinished, but I’m pretty sure we can all agree that it was. The final fight /should/ have had one more part to it. The unfinished feel of the map, the parts of it down below the airships, the point of interest that nobody can get to.
It all points to just how unfinished and rushed Arah story really is.

Please, Anet… Please go back and finish Arah.
And also… Please, make Zhaitan a bad-kitten terror again. Bring back the risen adds to something like they used to be before they got nerfed into the ground.
This is the Elder Dragon of Undeath… The same god-like creature that raised an entire sub-continent sized kingdom from the depths of the ocean and whose adamantine will controls an entire nation worth of undead.
Each time he flies past the Pride of Tyria during that last fight, he should be vomiting out so many risen that the airship strains to stay aloft just from the sheer weight of them. Not just three pathetic zombies, a risen quaggen and a gorilla.

Good ideas, Shriketalon.

That said, I’m not sure if I’d really want such a system in place. For starters, you mentioned how the invasions would need to be infrequent to prevent a feeling of “the Dragonspawn are on a timer”. Unfortunately, that poses the risk of running into the same problem that plagued Lost Shores; if it’s TOO infrequent, you will have some players who, due to work schedules or school etc. will just NEVER get a chance to see one of these events in person. Going by the recent changes to world bosses, I’d say that once every 3 hours is the bare minimum that world bosses need to spawn in order for all players to have a decent chance of participating, and that frequent invasions would quickly wear out player resolve to keep defending a location over and over.

Also, I don’t want the Dragons and their minions to be ever-present throughout the world. We also need “downtime”, locations and towns and maps where we can relax and drink in the beauty of the world. Roleplayers need places they can work their creativity safely in. Other players need opportunities to fight foes and plots that aren’t related to the Elder Dragons, like the ghosts or the Flame Legion or the Krait.

I like your ideas for the unique Dragon champions though, particular with the nods to GW1 lore. I still think that killing an Elder Dragon mano-a-mano would seem unsatisfying and illogical though; like ants trying to kill an elephant. We still need something bigger than the heroes to finish the job, whether it be the Glory of Tyria, the new Asura Super-Golem based on a repaired and reactivated Marionette, or a group of 5 party members being imbued with the divine power of the Six Gods and being transformed into giant deific avatars to battle directly with Zhaitan.

P.S. I actually didn’t feel Sauron was a good villain. He felt TOO absent from the plot to me. His influence felt more like that of an evil deity, guiding and exhorting his worshippers to wreak evil on the world, but to the players? The true “villain” would be the high priest that’s leading his mortal armies, not the deity itself.

I really like OP ideas.

marking this tread for some feedback, I agree with various parts of your critiques, some of your solutions a bit less. Some of it has to do with the format, some of it has to do with the story as a whole, and some of it with some (what I consider) ‘lore-facts’.

Yet various of these can be worked around to keep the idea behind your solution in tact (for the most part at least). bedtime in a bit

Another entertaining and well formatted diatribe. I’d particularly like to echo the sentiments about the pact, and offer a point toward its legitimacy:

There are six dragons and five races of tyria. The pact killed one. The new one is somehow distinctly related to the sylvari, and each race seems to have its own “pet dragon” in kind with the exception of one: Humans.

Also, Mordy’s gonna kill someone important, and traherne being that mark could easily start a freefall of pact dissolution.

PopeUrban.2578:

with the exception of one: Humans.

What about Bubbles and Zhaitan?

Imperios.2543:

PopeUrban.2578:

with the exception of one: Humans.

What about Bubbles and Zhaitan?

Those dragons are out there, but in terms of the current state of events, the humans aren’t really in constant or implied long term aggression with either. They’re at war with Centaurs.

Zhaitan – Everybody’s dragon (handled by the pact)
Mordremoth – The Sylvari’s Dragon (In progress)
Kralkatorrik – The Charr’s Dragon (In Progress)
Jormag – The Norn’s Dragon (In Progress)
Primordius – The Asura’s Dragon (Barely in progress)
Bubbles – No strong racial enmity (But is likely very active against the NPC largos)

The problem here is that this would make bubbles the dragon with strong racial enmity against humans, but humans lack advanced magic or technology that would enable them to take center stage in an assault on it. Human military action is largely achieved through mass regiments rather than the advanced magic, natural ability, or technology the others enjoy.

However, in order for humans to field mass regiments against bubbles, it would have to wage a largely ground based assault (unlikely) or require the help of other races to outfit its forces with weapons and equipment to fight it underwater (which wouldn’t really be a human-centric story fight at that point, but another pact-like alliance.)

That said, given its location there’s potential for bubbles to, say, flood all of kryta and prompt an intervention of the gods or a sudden industrial wartime revolution among humans, but it seems far more natural to assume bubbles is the “closer” dragon that would see a shattered pact finally reassambled after these other race-centric stories are concluded, thus giving a full-circle style ending to the whole six dragons story arc, likely with the inclusion of largos or tengu as a playable race (largos because water, or tengu because their sanctuary became flooded, forcing them in to the world with everyone else)

The assumption here might be, simply, they felt that all of guild wars 1 and the rising of orr/the lore and focus surrounding the human mythology during the zhaitan story was enough to cover humans fairly.

Or we get five more “pact beats up dragon” arcs, which I agree would get kinda tedious after a while.

Also keep in mind, regarding the pact, The Aetherblades are slowly nibbling away at the pact’s store of airships, and mordy’s tentacles/the killing of trahearne may be enough to destabalize the organization in to an unworkable ideal should we find that making magic laser gates with signs on the that say “WE FIGHT DRAGONS” was a critical mistake, and that by centralizing resources we made them too vulnerable to concentrated attack from dragons that saw zhaitan fall and know what they’re up against.

In this manner, the pact may still exist as an idea, but not as a fighting force, leaving the orders to operate mostly separately/inefficiently again with perhaps a small “pact council” to coordinate their efforts that doesn’t always see eye to eye and experiences significant political infighting without strong central leadership.

I think it would actually be a good thing if the Pact is defeated somewhere, perhaps not against Mordremoth but while facing another threat/dragon. Completely disbanding the alliance, we’d need aid from somewhere else in that case though. Another thing I think may be really cool is if unlike Zhaitan where we attacked his turf, let one of the dragons attack us somewhere, I wouldn’t mind seeing an entire old zone become wrecked by a giant dragon that leads his army himself. Then again, I don’t know if that fits any of the dragon’s behavior/lore etc. I do think that having a setback when fighting the dragons would make the heroes feel mortal and real.

As for Arah, I do remember reading or hearing somewhere that it was finished only JUST on the very last day and that they had to scrap part of the initial idea (probably also explains why there is an unreachable POI in Arah with a name hinting at a dragon fight), just to get the game out there.

I must say I always enjoy your posts and I like the idea of the lieutenants. As do I agree on your comments about the Arah story. However there is one thing, besides the pact the orders are also multi racial organizations.

No Threat, no activity I agree here
It was only yesterday evening, b4 I read your post that I was ‘investigating’ where Primordus was making his ‘moves’ above ground, or at least show his presence. I think I counted 3 locations on the whole of Tyria, with Mount Mealstrom being ‘by far’ the largest. Now yes, there is a high end map dedicated to the Flame Legions, but that’s just it, it’s the Flame legion map and hardly any Primordus activity is going on there… Something similar takes place in regards to the brand…. Now, bubbles is completely absent, and ‘we’ basically only know of him through the NPCs, though in many instances it is slightly unclear on whether they speak of Zhaitan or of Bubbles. The only real dragon with a large presence on the world is Zhaitan, but as you so clearly put in one of the later mentions, they are mostly cannon flodder.

This leaves out Jormag, and the main reason is that I am not sure where to place him, where he is present it’s mostly to do with Norn, and not all of them are corrupted, they are just worshippers. So Jormag seems more prevalent than say Primordus, but that is because the landscape is more prone to be linked to him, while in fact, the flame legion are present on a lot of maps too.

After this elaboration, I then would have to say that my critique on your idea follows that of Rym. It ‘could’ turn out to become just as much a ‘meh’ as Scarlets invasions were… And, more over, it couldn’t be these dragons hitting a random location on the map that just doesn’t make sense. For one, the lore section of our community would explode regarding the implication that such a system would imply…

But! If the modifications that Rym already suggested would focus on the locations that the Dragons are currently most present, then that would make sense, would also give a good starting point (follow expectations)…

And! If the route or even goal of the expansions would follow the lore of the Dragons, aka they are drawn to magical objects. So expansion in search of magical objects (no matter how small or powerful) could make sense. And in certain instances even be linked to the shipment of artefact by the Durmond Priory. Or just some ruin.

You could build a system that could become reliable yet random, and offer a sense of urgency. Or at least a local thread. Now what of the Over-arcing thread? Because I have seen these ‘area take overs’ in an other game, and quite honestly, once you get used to it, it merely becomes a loot farm. Why? Because the thread is gone, the area is over taken, but nothing happens there after. The area stays that way until driven back (usually by defeating the key foes that were set to prevent the whole thing), and it all starts a new. But there have to be consequences, or else there is no thread…

Well lore offers a way out, magic increases the strength of a Dragon, so as these events (because I would put these expansions in the event system) fail for us, but succeed for the Dragons. The forces of the Dragon could strengthen in the known location, certain boss fights could become harder, with more adds, or new unlocked skills for the champ. To prevent some ‘contamination’ of the regular event system, what would happen in a total take over, certain key maps could be chosen to have the influence of the Dragon increase (mainly the high level maps).

If you tie the whole thing in an over arcing dynamic event system, there HAS to be a way to scale back. Well, there is a mechanic available that would strengthen the story and world, that is timed, and would make sense… What if the defeat of one of the Major Dragon Champions scales the events down a couple of notches. As if the Elder Dragon needs to use his magical influence to embue an other dragon with Champion powers. We defeated this dragon, its magic is gone, so he would draw/prey upon his existing forces, to gather enough magic to create a new Champion.

Now we have a system:
- Dragon related events spawn in currently known location, an attack on a caravan, a raiding of a ruin. Etc…
- If the event fails, the dragon succeeds, the amount of spawns in known locations increases, certain events have more spawns or become harder. Or new ‘temporary’ outburst of Dragon Spawn rise, from which new events take place.
- Upon defeating one of the Dragons, the system switches back a few steps. If the Dragon is not, the system just moves on.
- At some point (end state) there are just numerous Dragon event taking place in various location through-out Tyria, nothing really happens at this point. To make it seem still somewhat unpredictable a set of say 3 or 4 events would take place on a timer with a randomized pick. And this would then happen in all the location where events with Dragon spawn happen.

Zaxares.5419:

I still think that killing an Elder Dragon mano-a-mano would seem unsatisfying and illogical though; like ants trying to kill an elephant. We still need something bigger than the heroes to finish the job, whether it be the Glory of Tyria, the new Asura Super-Golem based on a repaired and reactivated Marionette, or a group of 5 party members being imbued with the divine power of the Six Gods and being transformed into giant deific avatars to battle directly with Zhaitan.

Help, assistance, and force multipliers are perfectly fine, but we still need to make a difference.

The problem with the Battle for Arah design is that we were completely unnecessary. If you remove the players from the equation, the battle would play out exactly the same way, with the Glory of Tyria overwhelming Zhaitan and the rest of the Pact mopping up the place. We did nothing, we contributed nothing, and we simply weren’t necessary for victory.

It’s perfectly okay for future battles to go crazy. Empower us with the Spirits of the Wild so we’re forty foot astral projections of wolves and bears, have us control a city-sized golem where each player is an arm/leg/head, get swallowed by Bubbles and carve our way out through its innards Jabu-Jabu style, whatever.

But we have to matter. Heroes can be many things, be they strong or swift, smart or foolish, brave or fearful, virtuous or edgy, devout or faithless, charismatic or subtle. But they can’t be unnecessary. Heroes accomplish things, and we need to make a difference. In every single battle, there needs to be the possibility of defeat, the chance of ruin, the pressure of overwhelming opposition that leads one to believe that all is lost, yet the glimmer of hope for success remains. Because that’s where heroes live, dancing along the knife edge between despair and victory, the apex of the Hero’s Journey. That’s where we make a difference.

Zaxares.5419:

Also, I don’t want the Dragons and their minions to be ever-present throughout the world. We also need “downtime”, locations and towns and maps where we can relax and drink in the beauty of the world.

True, but the invasion mechanic could lead to just that sort of idea.

If you look at Sparkfly Fen, for example….it’s Risen. Risen EVERYWHERE. At a certain point halfway through map completion, fighting Risen really starts becoming a chore. But with the ability to repel dragon minions, we could actually reclaim this terrain and turn it back to the wonderful dinosaur-laden swamp of memory, just like it was in GW1.

Now, the exact details would be tricky. Ideally, a time frame of around four to five invasions per 24 hour period would be best, because that means an evening’s entertainment will likely only see one event, and it will feel completely option. Moreover, with so many maps, a redeemed zone would be untainted by Dragonspawn for days at a time, leaving plenty of opportunity to have respite and relaxation from the horde. And with six dragon’s hordes worth of minions on many different maps, there’s plenty of opportunity for different fighting styles, different tactics for each horde, different balances between waves of minions and large bosses or environmental attacks, etc.

That being said…

Rym.1469:

What if instead swarming maps mobs would swarm zones. I mean, let’s say they begin from Frostgorge and once succeed, go to Wayfarer, then Gendarran and Lornar’s Pass. That could feel more dangerous.

Arghore.8340:

And! If the route or even goal of the expansions would follow the lore of the Dragons, aka they are drawn to magical objects. So expansion in search of magical objects (no matter how small or powerful) could make sense. And in certain instances even be linked to the shipment of artefact by the Durmond Priory. Or just some ruin.

This is an incredibly cool idea I hadn’t even considered.

If each dragon has a different overall strategy, they can each encroach into Tyria using vastly different priorities and methods. The corruption could actually encircle the civilized world and ebb and flow like a real warzone, pushing in on multiple fronts and progressing like a battlefront.

It would also allow story features to be built into the design. For example, the Cleansing of Orr could be a very gradual thing, tweaking the Risen so that they fade over the course of the year, zone by zone. Artifacts and places of power become far more prominent as living elements of lore, and both the geography and history of Tyria become more important to day-to-day gaming.

Your idea is extremely nifty! Kudos.

I totally agree with the OP. The fight with Zhaitan was rushed though, I am sure. It is one of the worst final battles in gaming history.

I think there might be a problem by zone to zone invasion: Mega servers, just look at the temple events.

I really hope the unfinished zhaitan fight will get worked on again and they don’t just move on.

+1

more feedback

On Dragon Champions
Seeing The Champion seems to be the ‘highest in command’ in the ranks of Dragon Spawn, and various sources hint at it to there ‘being only one’. Suggesting 3 champs for each Dragon goes against all previous lore…

I do agree though, that with some more higher ranked sentient ‘Dragon spawn’ it would be possible to create a more elaborate profile of the Dragons, so that each can have it’s own subtleties. But as you create difference in dragons, why? create these difference the same (aka 3 for each). Why not give one dragon just one (aka the champ, rest just small minions), another 1 champ and 3 lieutenants, yet another 5 ‘lieutenants’ that combine into one Champ (great for bubbles f/e and or Primordus).

Seeing that the Dragons are set into a framework, that seems to have a great deal of logic behind it (somewhat like the MtG power-chart/wheel), having 3 setups would be enough, and opposing dragons could share a hierarchy breakdown.

I would also like to mention that Anet has already tried to use multiple entities to ‘speak’ for the dragon, We see this in the PS regarding Zhaitan. Aside from Teq. there are the Mouths of Zhaitan. And in lesser sense the eyes. That seem to give a bit of character to Zhaitan himself. In my examples above he would be the ‘One General, Multiple Lower servants’ type dragon. Which would make Mordremoth use a similar setup. seeing Bubbles and Primordus suiting themselves the best for a merging Lieutenants, that would leave Kralki and Jormag for a Champ with 3 Lieuts.

On Minions
My critique here is that, due to the above mentioned ‘power-chart/wheel’ that makes up the dragons. It might turn out (and there are hints to it), that NOT all dragons are capable of Corruption! Most noticeably, the dragons on the left side (Bubbles, Mordremoth, Primordus) seem to be more ‘creating’ dragons, while the dragons on the right side (Kralkatorrik, Zaithan, Jormag) have shown to lean towards ‘corruption’ to create their minions.

Now there may be shades of grey here, and the analysis of the power-chart/wheel is only in it’s infancies. As some Dragons may only be capable of corruption when the subject ‘freely’ accepts the corruption (hints of this can be found with Scarlet). These dragons might still be capable of ‘mind control’ or at least a high influence on the mind to try and subvert their target to ‘freely’ choose to submit themselves to the dragon. But like Mordi, certain events related to Zhaitan, could/might also be linked to somebody that is influenced by him, yet not corrupted (in a sense that can clearly be noticed, like that of Jormag and Kralki.)

So yes ! I fully agree that the corrupting side of Dragons could be increased by including more creatures that would be corrupted (merely by being in the areas of corruption). Yet, if indeed it turns out only 3 dragons create minion ‘by’ strong and active corruption, of any being, than obviously this would only make sense for these dragons!

On The Dragon fight
While I somewhat agree with the experience of the end fight, you will have to acknowledge that the dragon is a lot bigger than the size of their Champs. We can fight these in game, and it takes an awfully big group of players to take them on… Also, due to the size it may be impossible to fit him onto a map due to technological restrictions…

Yet, the end fight would have been that much more fulfilling, if we would have followed the dragon down, and would have been able to stab the now severely (physically) weakened dragon with our ‘group’ (aka. Us the hero together with Destinies Edge). It would have also given Anet the possibility to further expand the personality of the Dragon, and sow some mystery by them having a dying breath statement…

As far as animation goes, this also makes things easier, as not all the parts of the dragon would have to be animated. And only the still ‘working’ parts would have to be models with wire frames, while the rest of the dragon could be made as a mock-up.

@JerryMain, if you reference to something it would be nice to use it as the example of the issue you describe first. Seeing I hardly play the Temple Events, and thus have absolutely no clue as to what you are talking about, even more so in relation to Mega Servers? Your ‘what might be great feedback’, becomes entirely useless… What is the problem? How do Mega Server relate to the problem? (and where you can see an example of this I now understand)

Arghore.8340:

@JerryMain, if you reference to something it would be nice to use it as the example of the issue you describe first. Seeing I hardly play the Temple Events, and thus have absolutely no clue as to what you are talking about, even more so in relation to Mega Servers? Your ‘what might be great feedback’, becomes entirely useless… What is the problem? How do Mega Server relate to the problem? (and where you can see an example of this I now understand)

Ok, so I was being a bit lazy there, but I looked it up:
“Temples of Orr—The cross-map mechanics of these temples will be disabled. Instead, god statues will be active only when the nearest temple is contested.”

So that taken into account I’m not entirely sure a system with cross map progression would work with the megaservers.

I hope that cleared it up.

Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-megaserver-system-world-bosses-and-events/

Tnx JerryMain, that was very enlightening and seeing I had just taken the world server for ‘granted’ i was not aware of these… They do indeed pose some problems for a system like i was proposing…

There is only one thing to do now really, call upon guidance of Menzies the Mad …
Introducing ‘the shadow server’:
The shadow server is a ‘state database server’ that logs all the changes to all the states of all events on all the maps, this server makes it so that if a certain map is entirely empty and the last ‘instance’ of it is ‘despawned’, the next time some-one enters the map it is started up with the last know state of said map. Another function of the shadow server is to re-enable (some of the) cross map events. This will work in the following manner

1. If an instance of map is changed all the states of said map are stored on the shadow server. When a new instance starts it will retrieve the data from the shadow server and start the instance in the last known state.
2. Any changes to the states of the map will be logged onto the shadow server.
3. When a second instance of said map is started, this map will start with the last known state on the shadow server.
4. For events that offer cross map functionality (like the system I suggested earlier in this thread), the shadow server will take the combined results on all instances of the existing maps, into account, to determine in which state the ‘world’ is, in order to start of a next level of events for each instance.
5. To accomplish this each map is periodically evaluated based upon it’s state, and the combined state. If the combined state indicates that the ‘events’ are escalating, then the events on all maps are set to scale towards the next thread level. If the combined states indicate that the players are sufficiently dealing with the thread, and the combined state indicate that the events would de-escalate, the next time event is started it will take the de-escalated state into account. There is a certain bandwidth set so that the thread level might not change.

5a. In order to reduce the amount of ‘we just did this event’ encounters, each thread level has a certain number of events, on each map, as well as those that take place in various other section of the world. (this f/e means that if no instance of said map is present at the time of the event, it is considered a lost event in the state count). When this map were to load, it loads based upon the last known information on the shadow server, which, as you guessed it, would also take into account if a cross-map state has changed since it was last activated.

6. As some of these events are linked to world bosses and champion events, the state of the whole world will be taken into account when these events spawn. Again the combined efforts will determine if the events in the world de-escalate. The world bosses themselves remain on the well known timer, ‘but’ the state in which the entire world is at the time they spawn, will determine in what strength you will find these Foes.

Hard Core – Mega organized.
For both the Karka Queen and the Jungle Wurm, various events in the world have been linked to them, to provide ‘world state counters’, Teq. is obviously linked to events to do with the Risen. Because these events are already mega-hard, changes in strength may vary mildly. Lets just say that we re-evaluated the events and made changes to reflect efforts on other fronts, or failure to do so… (f/e. the karka queen might be ‘extra’ annoyed if a lot of karka have been killed in the time in between her spawning, the system as a whole might validate karka concentration to show up on other maps as well | In regards to the Jungle wurm, the same may apply for Grubs f/e.)

Standard world events.
The same applies here as for the mega hard – coordinated attacks.

Standard world events
Nothing changes here… as these events are for low levels, and are not meant as high coordinated events. But, we have added new possible ‘world events’ at the 30min mark, which depending on the area these are related to, will or will not spawn. These events are basically higher tiered events based up on the world state on the shadow server.

Champion Events
Expect certain champion events (that made sense to use based upon this system) to reflect the current world state on the Shadow Server.

Dynamic Events
Various dynamic events have been added to the world, mainly (but not exclusively) linked to activities of the Dragons. This was done to make these entities feel more present in the world, and the shadow server governs them as a hidden puppet master. There are various tiers in this system, and each tier is represented by various events either on the same map, but also on various other maps where activity may or may not be expected. Results in these new, and various existing events have been linked to the events mentioned above.

Implications for other Cross Map events (for example temples)
i wish i knew exactly how these worked, so i could be more specific and accurate, but i will give it a try non the less. Seeing the events (by my minor knowledge) are linear, the process of keeping track would be slightly different.

1. As long as the last instance of a map doesn’t ‘despawn’ with an end state of any of the temples, it will spawn the next time with the state it was last saved in. Else, the map will restart at point 0, the next time it spawns. For as long as there are people on the map, it will follow normal procedures (which unfortunately i do not know what they are)
2. If another instance of the map is started it will start with the last known state of said map, unless it is an end state. In which case the first stage of the map will start (or the randomizer failsafe is used). This also mean that if you hear your guildies mention that you are about to do step X, but the map is full, you will start an instance of the map in the state your guildies are in, and they ckittene the ‘join player’ feature to continue where they left off…
3. If an instance completes the temple fight, the event opens up on the next map, if it is already on it’s way (it could check the population on said map and the state of the map) and depending on both it would either:
- place the player on the existing map with current progress (preferred)
- place the player in a new instance. The system could take into account how long it has been since the previous map has reached an end state, and set the state of the temple in said map to ‘open for a charge’ based upon said state timer.
4. The same would apply for the last map.
5. When you are ‘left’/still on a map that has reached it’s end state, and there are other instances of the map running (depending on how far along these are, and the population on the map), the system could alert the player that (s)he can change maps by using a waypoint to join a server that is in a different state. !Including! The next time you use a waypoint, you will be moved to this map. This will ensure that the amount of instances is kept low. New entries to the map could be loaded on which ever instance ANet prefers them to load, if players remain on the map (as said) the events will ‘reset’ or scale back, and Anet can set a threshold somewhere to make this map open up to new arrivals at this point. ‘Aka. re-use the instance’

While ‘again’ i might be missing certain features of the whole temple fighting thing, and perhaps just excluding them from the whole system would be simpler, this seems like a valid way to reintroduce the temple events in a more dynamic fashion though

Why doesn’t this have a red post? I know you guys are busy, but I’m sure everyone, or mostly everyone, would agree that when you want to hear our opinion on the living story, what you can improve on, or if we have ideas, you can ask Shriketalon, cause as with all his topics, he says exactly what we are thinking.

Some good points, though I disagree with “The Pact has to die” bit.

Also the exampled version of the Zhaitan fight I feel goes too far into that. It makes it sound as if basically the Entire pact army gets wiped out in the battle, leaving… next to nobody. Instead of a Bloodied but victorious, it’s mutual destruction. And I hate stories like that.

At least you came up with a possible reason for five players vs Zhaitan, but he’s still a 500m+ elder dragon. Could our little swords even pierce his hide?

Kalavier.1097:

(…)
At least you came up with a possible reason for five players vs Zhaitan, but he’s still a 500m+ elder dragon. Could our little swords even pierce his hide?

Which is why the Hero disregards his own safety and jumps right down his throat to cut his belly from the inside. But now translate that into actual MMO gameplay, or are we thinking cutscenes?

Angelwood.7652:

Why doesn’t this have a red post? I know you guys are busy, but I’m sure everyone, or mostly everyone, would agree that when you want to hear our opinion on the living story, what you can improve on, or if we have ideas, you can ask Shriketalon, cause as with all his topics, he says exactly what we are thinking.

The devs have stated more than once to players that they read a lot of things on the forums but that we shouldn’t expect a red post. Everyone has their pet project, grievance, great idea, etc. that they feel warrants direct communication. They can’t reply to them all. From what I’ve read, Shriketalon is good at offering constructive criticism but his opinion does not necessarily represent everyone or mostly everyone. what do you base that on exactly? Bear in mind, if the devs agree with something and want to make changes based on Shrike’s suggestions, or chime in, they will.

Excellent ideas. Definitely like the way this is presented. I think an additional element of interest playing off of what was mentioned is imperfect campaigns. There should be fights that are “won” simply by minimizing the losses. There are parts of the world not yet revealed, and something that I see pulling players in is coming to know characters, villages, perhaps even cities that we haven’t interacted with and facing the possibility of losing them to the dragons. I’m not sure how wholly feasible this is because of the history of Tyria, but perhaps a group who have shielded themselves both from the dragons and from the notice of others via arcane means having to reach out for help because their protection is failing. Facing real loss but doing so in an area that isn’t already known to players will be visceral, but not as divisive as the fall of LA.

Also, seeing conflict between the Elder Dragons themselves would be a great plot element. As already mentioned, the servants of the dragons would be able to act as the sources for why this is playing out, but it’s hard to imagine that as powerful as these beings are that they all agreed to live contently with one another in perfect harmony. Surely there have been power plays or animosities at work in their time existing together. Does the chaos lead to weaknesses to be exploited? Does it lead to one dragon aiding Tyria against the others? Does it lead to in-fighting between dragons spilling over into areas that were thought safe?

Lastly, the map only goes so far. There is certainly opportunity for new groups to be introduced from beyond our scope of vision, as well as having groups like the Kodan interact in new ways to move the plot forward. There are a lot of living elements that can be brought into play to change the face of the game and make it even more immersive without alienating the player base. I suppose the big question is do player want to see this?

i imagine we will see world stuff where we fight together to repel “boss” relevant to mordremoth, including mordremoth.

then a personal story where you get to finish it, etc. Like what we have with zhaitan.

Im thinking the odds are we go inside mordremoth, what with all the underground stuff that already exists, so the whole “dragon fight” wont be how we kill it.

all conjecture

Great critique and suggestions.

From very early on, I’ve felt like they need to focus more on dragon lieutenants that are small enough scale to have personalities so that the story will be stronger. Unfortunately, ArenaNet does have a weakness for thinking that Big=Impressive.

The new direction of the story, with the revelation of the Sylvari as dragon minions has a lot of potential to make this more interesting than the Zhaitan story. It’d be great if we will get to see one or more of our Sylvari celebrities (Trahearne, Faolain, Malyck) become the Lieutenant that gives Mordremoth a face and personality.

As to your zone idea, it reminds me of the early days of Rift. I love the idea, but a lot of players in that game complained because when the evil forces took over, they couldn’t go about questing like usual. It seemed like a ridiculous critique to me… how much better to have a dynamic world that didn’t always have the same quests available. But Trion responded and heavily nerfed invasions.

IMO, one of the standout things about this game is the DE system. It had the potential to be grown into something amazing. Complexity could have been added so that the DE system becomes a back and forth between AI forces spinning of an ever changing, dynamic world, into which the players come and decide how they are going to effect the balance of power.

Imagine if the DE chains we have could interfere with each other and the system was fleshed out into DE networks pushing and pulling each other across zones. Then your dragon invasions could be a dynamic force working through an area and threatening all that is good.

Wonderful presentation of how this game could take things to the next level. Thanks for putting it together.

Gibson.4036:

As to your zone idea, it reminds me of the early days of Rift. I love the idea, but a lot of players in that game complained because when the evil forces took over, they couldn’t go about questing like usual. It seemed like a ridiculous critique to me… how much better to have a dynamic world that didn’t always have the same quests available. But Trion responded and heavily nerfed invasions.

IMO, one of the standout things about this game is the DE system. It had the potential to be grown into something amazing. Complexity could have been added so that the DE system becomes a back and forth between AI forces spinning of an ever changing, dynamic world, into which the players come and decide how they are going to effect the balance of power.

Imagine if the DE chains we have could interfere with each other and the system was fleshed out into DE networks pushing and pulling each other across zones. Then your dragon invasions could be a dynamic force working through an area and threatening all that is good.

We’ve seen that in Dry Top to an extent, and much more so in Silverwastes, that players can deal with going into an area that is always heavy with the enemy. I think the incursion event system would work well in new areas that are revealed as the game continues to progress as more about the conflict with each dragon becomes present. Areas that have been cut off by the dragons, possibly areas that have managed to shield themselves from both the dragons and everyone else to avoid the battle as best they can. Places that will add new interest but that won’t affect low level questing or the majority of already revealed lands in Tyria.

It definitely can be done in a way that makes upcoming content a lot more dynamic and emphatic of a Living World.

OP, when I win the lottery, you can write any game story you want.

I like these idea. However, if ever ANET wants to do it, GW2 need another 10 million copies of GW2 sold and have a steady income from the Black Lion Gemstore. If not, I don’t think ANET will throw their resource on such resource intensive infrastructures. Yes, we have done this during Scarlet’s storyline, but that one caused many major problems and it was just a champ farm until they nerf it. sometimes, people may just cause the whole invasion to fail and the region to fall for a long time. What about the low level players leveling and going into a fallen region? They will be dying left right and center and then they will feel the game isn’t fun and quit.
Not very good for the game if new players start quitting because other players can’t be bothered to defend the region due to no incentives to do so. Or because of the Megaserver, some maps succeed in the defending against the invasion, but others “overflow” maps failed. That would be a nightmare.

Logged in only to +1 the OP.
Yes, please.