Guild Wars 2

If you don’t want to know how Episode 4 ends don’t read. May well contain spoilers for other parts of the plot too.

I played through E4 last night and afterwards found myself thinking a lot about it, especially the ending. And I found myself thinking that the dragons attack was actually quite convenient.

Before then the leaders were non-committal, at best agreeing to have some people look into it (if they didn’t have anything else to do). Afterwards, when they had experienced a Mordrem attack themselves, they were 100% behind it.

But it seems a bit too convenient. The targeted attacks on Fort Salma and Fort Concordia imply that Mordremoth is more aware of how our races function than the other dragons appear to be, but attacking the summit still seems out of character. From what we’ve seen the dragons regard us at most as an irritation. More likely we’re just another kind of animal, something to feed on or ignore.

So I find it hard to believe Mordremoth would care that a small group of people were getting together to talk about him, if he even knew.

The other possibility is that it was a coincidence, but that would be a pretty amazing coincidence. But there is a 3rd option:

I’m one of the people who suspects the Pale Tree could be one of Mordremoths champions who defected (or rather she was supposed to be, since unlike Glint she’s been on our ‘side’ her whole life and never served the dragon).

So now I’m wondering if it’s possible the Pale Tree sacrificed herself to make the other leaders see the threat and unite? That she arranged the summit and then somehow goaded Mordremoth into sending another champion to attack her at the same time?

There are certainly characters in GW2 who would do something like that (and people in real life too) if they thought it would help. And bear in mind the Pale Tree isn’t her avatar, who we saw collapsed on the floor barely breathing. She’s actually the entire tree that towers over the Grove. It was hard to tell looking up from almost directly below (and of course they won’t have changed the model outside of the instance) but it didn’t look like she had taken so much damage that she couldn’t recover.

I can completely believe she would be willing to suffer a dragon attack if it would help unite the races, but I’m not entirely sure if that is what happened. What do you think?

That actually makes so much sense looking back.

Fort Salma had an huge amount of krait shards, which are highly magical artifacts. And the Concordia attack began with vines attacking the caravan carrying the locket, another powerful magical artifact.

From the Eternal Alchemy scene, one could gather that the Pale Tree sits on top of a important ley line hub.

I still think (and hope) that all those attacks were because, just like Zhaitan and the other dragons, Mordremoth wants to feed on magic and is thus directing his attacks on highly magical points.

Else, the dragons are going from “magic feeding balls of destruction” to “evil mastermind with a personality” and if that’s they road Anet wants to take, what’s next ? Negotiations with an ED ?

Actually I asked why we hadn’t tried negotiating with the Elder Dragons not long after release. I guess I’m a pacifist at heart, even when playing combat- orientated games and it bothered me that no one seemed to have tried, we jumped straight to ‘lets kill it!’

But the general consensus on the forum was that although they probably could understand us they wouldn’t care or have any inclination to listen. There is nothing we could offer them that they can’t take for themselves as and when they want it.

I can’t help wondering though, now that we’ve killed one of them shouldn’t that count for something?

Danikat.8537:

So now I’m wondering if it’s possible the Pale Tree sacrificed herself to make the other leaders see the threat and unite? That she arranged the summit and then somehow goaded Mordremoth into sending another champion to attack her at the same time?

There are certainly characters in GW2 who would do something like that (and people in real life too) if they thought it would help.

In fact one of them was Glint. If you read Edge of Destiny, Glint went into the fight against Kralkatorik knowing she would die, but willingly doing so to give the other races a chance.

Danikat.8537:

Actually I asked why we hadn’t tried negotiating with the Elder Dragons not long after release. I guess I’m a pacifist at heart, even when playing combat- orientated games and it bothered me that no one seemed to have tried, we jumped straight to ‘lets kill it!’

But the general consensus on the forum was that although they probably could understand us they wouldn’t care or have any inclination to listen. There is nothing we could offer them that they can’t take for themselves as and when they want it.

I can’t help wondering though, now that we’ve killed one of them shouldn’t that count for something?

Eons ago, we got told that the ED were like forces of nature. You don’t negotiate with a hurricane.
That’s something I like and it helped make sense. They are those forces of nature that don’t care about us. They will end up destroying us sooner or later, but when it happens it’s going to be an “accident” and not some carefully thought out plan. And why the hell should they have a carefully thought out plan when they can so easily kill and corrupt everything around them.

And then came GW2. With Zhaitan using its minions to infiltrate our ranks and try to kill the leader. Planning a surprise attack on LA. Being able to wipe us anytime he wished, but instead underestimated us and got caught by surprise.

And now we’ll have to see where they are headed with Mordremoth. He wasn’t awake until 2 years after Zhaitan’s death. If he’s attacking the forts because he wants to disrupt us, how does he know who killed his kin ? It could have been kraits, it could have been largos, tengu or an unknown race (quaggan is a bit far stretched).
I hope they aren’t going to go down the road of “evil mastermind”.

RedStar.4218:

And now we’ll have to see where they are headed with Mordremoth. He wasn’t awake until 2 years after Zhaitan’s death. If he’s attacking the forts because he wants to disrupt us, how does he know who killed his kin ? It could have been kraits, it could have been largos, tengu or an unknown race (quaggan is a bit far stretched).
I hope they aren’t going to go down the road of “evil mastermind”.

Actually it is believed that Zhaitan was the last of the dragons to awaken. So he was pretty much awake at the time of his death, he just wasn’t active in our corner of the world. Might be because it was Zhaitans and now he wants a slice of it.

The pale tree might or might be like Glint, not sure here. Important facts people are missing/overlooking:

1. we are shown via the cinematic that Glints child which we know the Zephyrites were involved with protecting is in the grasp of the Mordremoth( i don’t think those crystal pillars have anything to do the Musart)

2. the convenience of the attack on the leaders…. pay attention to the chat between Anise & Canach they had something to do with it, the whole attack might be a creation of theirs. (take into account Kasmer’s portal gets canceled out… what can do that but not a more powerful mesmer?)

Mastermavrick.2439:

The pale tree might or might be like Glint, not sure here. Important facts people are missing/overlooking:

I highly doubt that. The Pale Tree was seen growing at the conclusion of Guild Wars: Eye of The North, it was in formation long before Destiny’s Edge was formed.

1. we are shown via the cinematic that Glints child which we know the Zephyrites were involved with protecting is in the grasp of the Mordremoth( i don’t think those crystal pillars have anything to do the Musart)

I didn’t see Glint’s child. That was the Shadow of The Dragon which was the same beast that struck the Tree just before the cutscene.

2. the convenience of the attack on the leaders…. pay attention to the chat between Anise & Canach they had something to do with it, the whole attack might be a creation of theirs. (take into account Kasmer’s portal gets canceled out… what can do that but not a more powerful mesmer?)

I do think something is going on. However, I’m not sure yet whether it’s nefarious or there’s some positive motive behind it. Anise sends Canach to join Trahearne at Fort Trinity.

I Am Dansker.7105:

Actually it is believed that Zhaitan was the last of the dragons to awaken. So he was pretty much awake at the time of his death, he just wasn’t active in our corner of the world. Might be because it was Zhaitans and now he wants a slice of it.

Do we actually have proofs of this ?

Kralkatorrik was the last to awaken. Unless we simply laid there fully awake for 100 years before thinking “Now is the perfect time to flight to my champion in a blinding rage”.

People are trying through all means to figure out the order of the orbs. None seems to make full sense without stretching everything.

Danikat.8537:

Actually I asked why we hadn’t tried negotiating with the Elder Dragons not long after release. I guess I’m a pacifist at heart, even when playing combat- orientated games and it bothered me that no one seemed to have tried, we jumped straight to ‘lets kill it!’

But the general consensus on the forum was that although they probably could understand us they wouldn’t care or have any inclination to listen. There is nothing we could offer them that they can’t take for themselves as and when they want it.

I can’t help wondering though, now that we’ve killed one of them shouldn’t that count for something?

I have no doubt the Elder Dragons plot, especially Primordus and Kralkatorrik, who have been far too silent. Primordus has no active fightable champion, leading me to believe that he’s just biding time, manipulating events or just waiting for his siblings to screw up and get taken out. Thinking on it, he may in fact be behind Rytlock getting the Sohothin. It fell into the volcano at the end of Prophecies, and since the Volcanos are under Primordus’ jurisdiction, he could have been manipulating events all along to start the process of killing off his siblings.

Primordius has been fighting the dwarves (and according to some people asura and skritt who insisted on staying behind) for the last 250 years.

We can’t get far enough underground to see it but there’s a few NPCs who mention that if it wasn’t for the dwarves constantly fighting them there would be a lot more destroyers reaching the surface.

Also Destiny’s Edge killed one of his champions in their book, which if I remember right was 10 years before the game started.

RedStar.4218:

People are trying through all means to figure out the order of the orbs. None seems to make full sense without stretching everything.

Yeah, it is a lot like trying to force interpretation where there was no real purpose in the order – just cosmetic artistic value. That being said, I wouldn’t be surprised if Mordremoth was supposed to be awoken earlier but was delayed instead.

Ronin.7381:

RedStar.4218:

People are trying through all means to figure out the order of the orbs. None seems to make full sense without stretching everything.

Yeah, it is a lot like trying to force interpretation where there was no real purpose in the order – just cosmetic artistic value. That being said, I wouldn’t be surprised if Mordremoth was supposed to be awoken earlier but was delayed instead.

I’ve actually had a theory about that.

How did Orr sink? It was a spell, yes, but what did the spell actually DO? Islands don’t float, so it’s not that easy to “sink” one. What if the spell kind of pushed down and shortened Orr so it was below the water, much like a mesmer can make a huge enemy into a normal sized moa?

When Zhaitan started to draw magic in, before even awakening, it would have drained that spell. Eventually, the spell would have collapsed, sending a shock/surge through the local magic flows and shooting Orr back into place. That shock could have awakened Zhaitan early, much like Scarlet awakened Mordremoth. That awakening might have even changed the flows of magic, meaning less was going to the other dragons and keeping Mordremoth asleep past his time to awaken.

Palador.2170:

How did Orr sink? It was a spell, yes, but what did the spell actually DO? Islands don’t float, so it’s not that easy to “sink” one. What if the spell kind of pushed down and shortened Orr so it was below the water, much like a mesmer can make a huge enemy into a normal sized moa?

It’s been more than a few years since I stopped taking geology courses and I’m not sure that I can even try to explain how a continent could “sink” in english.

Basically this http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faille#mediaviewer/Fichier:Fault2.gif

Someone with more knowledge on geology will be able to explain it.

What I always found weird is that if Zhaitan was under orr, it must mean than in less than 10 000 years he got covered by a really thick and important layer of sand. And then the gods built their city like really right on top of it.

One of my pet theories is that by entering Omadd’s machine, WE have become corrupted by Mordremoth. (Or at least, we’ve established some kind of mental link with Mordremoth just as Scarlet did.) We’re not as affected by it due to being non-plant/protected by the Dream as Scarlet was, but Mordremoth is still very much aware of what we’re planning and doing due to this link. As such, once Mordremoth knew about the Summit we were planning, it decided to send the Shadow of the Dragon in an attempt to kill all the world leaders at once.

WE are the “traitor” that should rot.

More like, Zhaitan ignored the races of Tyria, and suffered defeat because of it.

Mordremoth, obviously to avoid the fatal mistake made by the last active dragon, tries to nip the threat in the bud…

Who knows, the dragons might be linked to each other telepatically or use their minions to relay information to other dragons. More possibilities.

Then again, it’s possible that the Pale Tree planned to use dragons attack as to convince the other races as you said…

FrostSpectre.4198:

More like, Zhaitan ignored the races of Tyria, and suffered defeat because of it.

Mordremoth, obviously to avoid the fatal mistake made by the last active dragon, tries to nip the threat in the bud…

Who knows, the dragons might be linked to each other telepatically or use their minions to relay information to other dragons. More possibilities.

Then again, it’s possible that the Pale Tree planned to use dragons attack as to convince the other races as you said…

The dragons thought of us as regular black ants. Turns out that they were mistaken and that we are actually bullet ants.

As far as I know, humankind is plotting something to kill the bullet ants leaders (but it wouldn’t surprise me if they are holding summits against us :p).

Of course, the “we are ants to them” was something told to us way back and in an interview (!). Considering the story, it seems that this isn’t the case anymore and that EDs are just your plain old evil mastermind with “kill everything” goal and unlimited power who we manage to defeat because they keep underestimating us and “love and companionship triumphs over pure evil”.

RedStar.4218:

FrostSpectre.4198:

More like, Zhaitan ignored the races of Tyria, and suffered defeat because of it.

Mordremoth, obviously to avoid the fatal mistake made by the last active dragon, tries to nip the threat in the bud…

Who knows, the dragons might be linked to each other telepatically or use their minions to relay information to other dragons. More possibilities.

Then again, it’s possible that the Pale Tree planned to use dragons attack as to convince the other races as you said…

The dragons thought of us as regular black ants. Turns out that they were mistaken and that we are actually bullet ants.

As far as I know, humankind is plotting something to kill the bullet ants leaders (but it wouldn’t surprise me if they are holding summits against us :p).

Of course, the “we are ants to them” was something told to us way back and in an interview (!). Considering the story, it seems that this isn’t the case anymore and that EDs are just your plain old evil mastermind with “kill everything” goal and unlimited power who we manage to defeat because they keep underestimating us and “love and companionship triumphs over pure evil”.

Especially, since the last time the dragons were awake, the ancient races, Seers, Mursaat, Dwarves, Jotun and the Forgotten were fighting a loosing battle against them.

Finally the ancient races were forced to go into hiding, with the aid of Glint and Seers’ Bloodstone.

RedStar.4218:

Palador.2170:

How did Orr sink? It was a spell, yes, but what did the spell actually DO? Islands don’t float, so it’s not that easy to “sink” one. What if the spell kind of pushed down and shortened Orr so it was below the water, much like a mesmer can make a huge enemy into a normal sized moa?

It’s been more than a few years since I stopped taking geology courses and I’m not sure that I can even try to explain how a continent could “sink” in english.

Basically this http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faille#mediaviewer/Fichier:Fault2.gif

Someone with more knowledge on geology will be able to explain it.

What I always found weird is that if Zhaitan was under orr, it must mean than in less than 10 000 years he got covered by a really thick and important layer of sand. And then the gods built their city like really right on top of it.

The asura built their Central Transfer Chamber (the heart of their old gate network) right on top of Primordius because, without knowing what it was, they detected his presence as a strong magical force and therefore a good location for the gates.

It’s possible the human gods were similarly aware of a strong magical presence in Orr, coming from Zhaitan, but not what it was or why.

Although I suspect Abbadon might have known and, as the god of secrets, chosen not to say. I don’t think it’s ever been confirmed but I’ve suspected for a while that the spell used to destroy Orr might have come from Zhaitan originally. As well as sinking the whole peninsula it also turned all the people into undead, which seems really random and a huge coincidence given that this happened right on top of the dragon of undeath, until you factor in that these scrolls apparently contained ancient forbidden magic the human gods had attempted to hide. It would be yet another ret-con of GW2 lore into GW1 but in this case I actually think it would make more sense than the original (lack of) explanation.

I actually believe it’s Anise who’s the “traitor.” Fort Salma was in Human lands, while the raid on Concordia was directed toward the caravan holding the Queen’s locket. She certainly seems like the character who would go to extreme lengths for what she deems right.

I don’t know about her being a “traitor” though. On one hand she may have sent a dragon to injure the Pale tree to get the Summit to succeed. On the other she had some shady side talks with Canach that may infer she truly is working against Tyria.

I like your idea about Pale Lady.
Mordremoth’s minions look a lot like salad people. make sense!!

@OP, you too might benefit from playing a Sylvari character that cares about her mother getting hurt, and checking up on her after the events took place… you know, visit the actual location in which she is tied, and the whole thing took place, in the actual game world… Umphalus chamber (or something like that) … really do !

Arghore.8340:

@OP, you too might benefit from playing a Sylvari character that cares about her mother getting hurt, and checking up on her after the events took place… you know, visit the actual location in which she is tied, and the whole thing took place, in the actual game world… Umphalus chamber (or something like that) … really do !

Why do you assume I don’t play a sylvari character?

I just went and checked and aside from the fact that the usual random NPCs were back (and strangely indifferent to the Pale Tree’s avatar lying flat on the floor) nothing had changed from the Summit instance. What’s your point?

Danikat.8537:

Arghore.8340:

@OP, you too might benefit from playing a Sylvari character that cares about her mother getting hurt, and checking up on her after the events took place… you know, visit the actual location in which she is tied, and the whole thing took place, in the actual game world… Umphalus chamber (or something like that) … really do !

Why do you assume I don’t play a sylvari character?

I just went and checked and aside from the fact that the usual random NPCs were back (and strangely indifferent to the Pale Tree’s avatar lying flat on the floor) nothing had changed from the Summit instance. What’s your point?

my point being…

And bear in mind the Pale Tree isn’t her avatar, who we saw collapsed on the floor barely breathing. She’s actually the entire tree that towers over the Grove. It was hard to tell looking up from almost directly below (and of course they won’t have changed the model outside of the instance) but it didn’t look like she had taken so much damage that she couldn’t recover.

‘She’ is still out for the count… and you might be mistaken about what ‘the pale tree’ is, seeing the other sylvari from the other tree didn’t mention anything about ‘a dream’, and seeing how the Pale tree is related to said dream, a Sylvari Tree apparently doesn’t automatically come with a protecting avatar… so you assuming, well the tree looks fine, doesn’t imply that ‘the pale tree’ as in how we all refer to it as a living thing ‘is fine’, if anything her state now is more of an indication of how well she is…

The biggest suspicious act Mordremoth has done is breaking only 4 waypoints over all the waypoints that were entrapped. Every single one of them was in a settlement. Throw in the attacks on Fort Salma and Fort Concordia, and that makes 6 forts overall that have been damaged by Mordremoth. That’s way too conincidental to be random, and more than just the Pale Tree interfering.

I’ll say that someone is coordinating with Mordremoth in the targets, and perhaps the vines would’ve extended farther if Taimi’s device hadn’t changed the waypoint system, it might’ve extended farther to who knows where. I’m going to guess that the Nightmare Court is conspiring in some way, but to what end, I don’t know.