Guild Wars 2

BobbyStein.2315:

Mister Midnight.9837:

Why does the game have to be open world at the expense of the PC? That’s a complete cop-out.

Actually, it’s the reality of game development. You have limited budget and time to work with, so scope must be adjusted to fit. Features must be prioritized, and sometimes that means cutting content or systems.

http://www.ambysoft.com/artwork/ironTriangle.jpg

That’s a nice model Bobby, but as a customer as well as a player, this is the reality of GW2 (see attachment).

Boasting sales record means you have the resources, yet you cut your schedules and your scope to satisfy the schedule.

Yeah, I don’t like these GMPCs either. Skipping over every in-depth issue the basic problem is that they waste the player’s time with uninteresting dialogue that is more about reveling in the characters than actually engaging the player. It gives the impression that the player has become a generic mook rather than someone who has made a critical difference when it should be the other way around. It’s not fun and it’s not engaging.

Tamias.7059:

I saw this on the front page of reddit today. I don’t think it’s actually a real Henry Ford quote, but the spirit applies here.

Then log off and don’t offer anymore input. ArenaNet will take it from here.

BobbyStein.2315:

Thalador.4218:

BobbyStein.2315:

Zin.1673:

The character is indeed voiced. Did you ever played your personal story ?

Warning: nerdy devspeak ahead!

The player character (PC) hasn’t had new voice recorded since the game launched, so you’ll only hear your character speak in the following circumstances: conditional chatter, in cinematic conversations in the Personal Story, and in painterly “full” cinematics. We retired cinematic conversations with the Living World, so right now the PC can only “talk” through unvoiced dialog trees.

We’re exploring some technical improvements that may allow the PC to speak under new circumstances, but it’s actually a bigger undertaking than one would imagine due to the complexity of player voice implementation (10 possible voices, currently shared lines of dialog that we want to split out, scene timing per language, etc.). That’s about all I can say at the moment.

In short, we’re looking to make the PC speak again, but it’s going to take a bit of time to redo the code and content pipelines to make it work, not to mention updating our tools to allow us to generate PC lines that deviate based on race & gender, prior accomplishments, etc. We’re not ready to announce what those changes will actually be or when they might be deployed, but we’re seriously looking into it.

As always, thanks for playing.

Fun fact: SW:ToR had 8 classes with entirely diverging storylines and was and is still fully voiced. With the two genders that means 16 possible voices, with split lines of dialogue (usually 3 choices).

Actually, I’m not saying that you could’ve pulled off something similar as you didn’t have EA’s financial backing (although by not ditching quests for events and cutting down the ridiculous amount of ambivalent dialogue that in 90% of the cases is all about the everyday, boring lives of a zone’s denizens you would’ve had way more resources to concentrate on giving voice to the person who matters the most in an RPG: the PC… my 2 cents). However, I’m still waiting on a branching storyline where my choices matter, I have more than one line of dialogue, and which incidentally also takes my character’s personality, origin, species, and gender into consideration.

For you, the game should be about the PC at the expense of the open world content and ambience. For me, and for Guild Wars 2, it’s about the world as a whole since it’s a cooperative, shared environment. Neither approach is wrong, but we decided to put more of our resources into bringing the world to life. I don’t regret that at all.

There are some among us who want to feel some sense of importance to character planning. It could be as simple as having a text box to put some background story, it could be as weighted as having forking text branches. The impression I’m getting from the last two years of playing this game is there are too many unraveled and unfinished threads.

There are some among us that want to experience deeper lore and exploration, and be rewarded with some sense of history and context. That’s largely absent. Take for instance the ruins of the dwarves, is there anything to discover? No. You have a couple headstones. In Lion’s Arch there’s a placard serving as a memorial to those who died. What does it say? Nothing more than a description of what the sign says – no actual details. You can’t say that you guys have spent time fleshing out the open world when in two years time, 2.25 zones have been released. And those zones are shallow compared to the vanilla ones. What about the 30+ minigames? What about Order quests and events?

The open world is completed by our choices and what things interest us. To ignore that is to ignore any chance at meaningful content, open world or not. The two groups are not exclusive.

During the launch time ego boosting your company said you were wanted WoW’s throne. Let’s do a simple comparison. Count how many dungeons, count hearts and events as quests – do you think that Guild Wars 2 actually has the same level of content?

I’m not liking the new destiny’s edge (lower case intentional) replacements that much either. Quite frankly, if I wanted a pair of women gushing over each other to the point of distraction while they leave getting work done to others, I’d go read Final Fantasy fiction. I don’t give a whit about Anets GMPC’s. It reeks of White Wolf level railroading and bad writing.

All in all, I’d like /some/ attention paid to the PC for a kitten change. Not a passing line of dialog, not being referred to GMPC #1631345’s “friend” and not as “just another adventurer.” We are incredibly deadly, frighteningly capable, world-shaking engines of Getting Kitten Done, and some acknowledgement of that would be nice as a player.

But as things are now, the new group of DM created special snowflakes are just replacements for the last group of them. But while destiny’s edge are a pack of simpering morons more interested in teenage drama and blame games than they are of doing their jobs, the new group are too busy flirting and necking in the bushes to be of any use.

Enough of this. Get them out of the way so the professionals can gets things done already.

Show, don’t tell. You can talk about the PC being a commander and doing commander things somewhere else all you want. It’s not shown in game, since it goes from Zhaitan, to Scarlet, to whatever is going on now, and apparently we only actually had a hand in the first one. Everything else happens offscreen and the PC we’re playing is just some random sideliner taking part in the writers characters’ story.

Destai.9603:

Tamias.7059:

I saw this on the front page of reddit today. I don’t think it’s actually a real Henry Ford quote, but the spirit applies here.

Then log off and don’t offer anymore input. ArenaNet will take it from here.

Let’s inject a little realism into this conversation:

They’ll take it from here anyway, either in response to whatever is being raised on the forums or in spite of it. They’ve kind of shown that time and time again they do listen to the players here on the forums, Reddit, elsewhere they go to read . . . but they ultimately decide with what they internally think is the best decision they can go with.

We could all say exactly the same thing, but if it went directly counter to what the developers want out of their game then I don’t think we’d get our wishes. If it went less than directly counter, and was an incredible investment of time and/or resources? We’re still less likely to get it due to a cost/benefit analysis probably saying “this wouldn’t work”.

Anyway, I suppose it could be worse. We could have the Reds and the Blues as our NPC assistants.

I happen to really like the bicoincs. They’re a lot more lovable than Destiny’s Edge and I’ve grown quite attached to them. Sure I’d like to see the PC be as much a character as they are, but that doesn’t mean I’d like to see the rest go away.

For those mentioning SWTOR, when was the last time they advanced their class story? Or even the planetary story? Makeb over a year ago? Other than that they’ve only advanced the story through the usual raiding the way every MMO does. The story in GW2 advances every two weeks. And the characters may be more cheesy, but they’re also more memorable. Like in… umm… Star Wars actually.

GW2 story still matters and effects things. SWTOR’s story stopped mattering as soon as you reached max level.

I prefer the way GW2 does things.

Having said that, as much as I enjoy Marjory and Kasmeer’s romance, and the other character interactions, I do look forward to the day when they get the PC talking again and we can have interactions, friendships, and romances too.

But I don’t expect to see that in Season 2 and I can understand that. It’s a big undertaking, one that even SWTOR, who sold itself on story, hasn’t been able to do on an ongoing basis.

I mostly agree with the sentiments in this thread. While I do think that S2 started off strong, and it’s probably one of, if not the best story update since the release, there are still many pressing issues which should ultimately be examined by the developers.

I like all of the new NPCs, in spite of their cheesy lines and casual demeanor, but I just don’t see myself as part of their group. Sure, they call me “boss” and “leader”, but most of the time it feels more like I’m the mentally disabled kid that gets to call himself a fancy title so that he stops whining and lets the other kids play rather than an actual sign of respect and an acknowledgement of my role in the group and story.

And when it comes to actually doing anything, the NPCs are absolutely useless. They are literally worse than the henchmen were at the release of Prophecies, and those were painfully atrocious at their job. In two years time, all that’s changed is that the NPCs occasionally decide to rez you, and that’s usually at a point where it’s not really required, while they blatantly ignore you where you’d actually need their help (like in a boss fight).

I’m not saying we need the hero system from GW1 (as incredibly satisfied as that would make me), but for Grenth’s sake, at least make the characters competent at their job. Buff me, heal me, deal some actual damage. You can’t make me feel like a third wheel and at the same time expect me to do everyone’s job. That’s just poor form. We’re either equal, and everyone carries their weight, or I’m the hero and I should be treated as such.

I’ve also fruitlessly been awaiting a time where we actually see some meaningful role playing in what’s advertised as a role playing game (MMO though it may be). It started out full of potential, with diverse backgrounds, the ability to change your character’s attitude, and a decent conversation system (as limited as it is). Then I started playing the story and realized that the background and choices I’ve made are quickly all but forgotten, I’m supplanted in my “personal” story by insultingly uninteresting characters, all the characters I get attached to are killed off or forgotten, the character’s attitude is irrelevant in all cases but the occasional conversation option which has no bearing on the result, and the robust conversation system is reduced little more than a single option + close dialog.

Two years later and we actually have fewer role playing aspects than we did at the start. Attitudes have been abandoned, story choices no longer exist, we’re just along for the ride, NPCs are taking the spotlight right from the get go, and the story hook is nothing but a mail from an enigmatic persona which, if we put ourselves in the character’s shoes, we have no real reason to follow.

And I can’t believe someone actually brought up the “you can roleplay your own stories” argument. This is a video game, not a virtual tabletop—It’s the developers’ job to provide the story, not just a rigid environment to play in. I get that you want to make the world “alive”, and to some degree that’s cool, even though I’m forced to hear about the woman who loved someone she didn’t deserve every 10 seconds. Just don’t act surprised that players are disappointed about the amount of their characters’ involvement while the story writers are beating off to their DMPCs and ambient dialogue. As someone who spends a great deal of time actually roleplaying, I’m somewhat insulted by this attitude.

At the end of the day, I don’t expect anything to change. I had realized that Anet won’t be able to deliver the kind of story experience I want by the end of the Order arc. I’ll still play the game for its other aspects, although I do wish we’d get more feature and bugfix updates, but I’m just disappointed that effort is being wasted in places where it can’t really be appreciated, like writing a cringeworthy lesbian romance instead of giving players a chance to bond with their supposed “friends”.

I like character and story development, as a side effect of my RPG and LARP experiences, both in the player side and the GM and ‘writer’ side.

The ‘writer’ was to think and write around 60 characters for a LARP, their interactions, backstory and possible ramifications while in game, for 60 players, taking in consideration that all of them were players, we had only 3 or 4 NPC and we could not allow ourselves to make any of those 60 character a “background piece”. All of them should had enough background and previous history information to make informed decisions for their characters, and enough interactions, goals, desires and stuff to be done to not be bored for the whole event (usually a weekend).

It’s hard to do, and probably is unrealistic to be done in a MMO. But it may be done better (less focus on GM NPC, allow some antagonist to address your character instead of focus on the NPC, some options to configure the NPC’s group to fit player desires, etc).

I guess it depends on the views of the whole team, development times and cycles, and lots of internal stuff we are not aware of.

Little examples: Treaharne. The personal story could have been divided in two. It is in fact divided, but some external division could have been useful so we, the players, could have a less grieving look when our personal story transforms on Treaharne’s story. Just something advertising at us “and what follows is not exactly your story, but you took a part on it”.

Destiny 2.0 is tricky, it’s a pre-made group of people that you have to like (like it or not), and accept as best-buddy-friends forever. If the company had received some signal before saying “this may be a bad idea, what happens if someone dislike the characters so much?” they could have proceed to deliver it in another way. Maybe choosing their personality traits, or having the possibility of configure which members form “your Destiny”. So during a year, or half a year, the Living World could have consisted in missions, adventures and events that lead to the creation of ‘your’ Destiny 2.0 (that’s much more development, more models, more lore, more text, more possible interactions….), but it delivers a world that is more ‘yours’.

Highlord.7158:

I’m not liking the new destiny’s edge (lower case intentional) replacements that much either. Quite frankly, if I wanted a pair of women gushing over each other to the point of distraction while they leave getting work done to others, I’d go read Final Fantasy fiction. I don’t give a whit about Anets GMPC’s. It reeks of White Wolf level railroading and bad writing.

All in all, I’d like /some/ attention paid to the PC for a kitten change. Not a passing line of dialog, not being referred to GMPC #1631345’s “friend” and not as “just another adventurer.” We are incredibly deadly, frighteningly capable, world-shaking engines of Getting Kitten Done, and some acknowledgement of that would be nice as a player.

But as things are now, the new group of DM created special snowflakes are just replacements for the last group of them. But while destiny’s edge are a pack of simpering morons more interested in teenage drama and blame games than they are of doing their jobs, the new group are too busy flirting and necking in the bushes to be of any use.

Enough of this. Get them out of the way so the professionals can gets things done already.

Show, don’t tell. You can talk about the PC being a commander and doing commander things somewhere else all you want. It’s not shown in game, since it goes from Zhaitan, to Scarlet, to whatever is going on now, and apparently we only actually had a hand in the first one. Everything else happens offscreen and the PC we’re playing is just some random sideliner taking part in the writers characters’ story.

I… can’t add anything to this. This echoes a lot of what I’m feeling about the story writing. Through level 20 or so, the PC was important, even if a lot of that was indecisive leaning by the PC’s administrative superiors. But now, we’re not even worth an honorable mention. :\

The way angel explains it really fit my RP for Yumiko. She had her and her kin beat Zhaitan and kill it with the rest of the pact only to have nothing else pressing from the pact to do. So it made sense that there may be more commanders.

Then Scarlet happened, all the while Yumi had a third child (a baby boy) and then also defeated scarlet armies about a year later only to find out the pact was never coming to help her (the vigil lost over 100 men on her account) and she was really mad at Trehearne for not sending anyone extra to the battles in Lions Arch.

“I’m the commander and no one comes to my aid? Unless they hired more when I was gone.” Is exactly what was going through her mind at the time and reinforced that fact.

And she specifically says to most other players, in character, that she has a family to take care of now there is no way she can do what she did like in the personal story.

Now in this living story she is going here for her own personal reason not as a pact commander but going after the bandits and White Mantle as they are her true enemies.
She is RPed as a noble, but I chose commoner for her trying to get each story combination experienced. My guardian was chosen as noble so I will experience that other dialogue.

I really wish we had more freedom on character development it still seems too constrained like we are on rails. A lot of the stuff fits or own canon and most does not.

I.E. I wished I could have chosen noble for everyone but done the commoner route or the streets route saving or dealing with who we feel to deal with.

It is not hard to understand the vision that ArenaNet is trying to accomplish. In a sense, it makes sense as a person goes through their real life experiences.

The Personal Story is likened to a person going through school from K-12 that their whole world is all about them, thinking that the world revolves around them, that all deeds needs to be recognized else they throw a fit. But as soon as this person becomes an adult, this person is overwhelmed with the vast open world that the first reaction is fear of uncertainty and demanding that things should stay as they were — back to all about them. The Living World reflect the adulthood of a person and the reaction to the Living World is that of young adult’s fear of uncertainty.

Adulthood is no longer about you, nor the world ever revolves around you. Sometimes, people you work with will take the spotlight even if you have done above and beyond the call of duty. As an adult, we learn to compromise, adapt, and deal with the situation even if we are not regarded by name. This is what the Living World is trying to portray, that after reaching Level 80, we are now adults ready to take on the world.

As an adult we choose how we are going to live our lives. In GW2, some choose to fight in the Mist, some choose to tackle the Fractals, some prepares for the next big threat, and some likes to explore the Dungeons. Others like the peaceful life of crafting items, trading in trading post, or just hanging out in Divinity’s Reach Party Around the Clock crowd. Thus ArenaNet is striving to accommodate to all walks of our GW2’s life.

I may not agree with a lot of decisions and indecision — actions and inaction — coming from ArenaNet, but it is undeniable that the world of Tyria is indeed beautiful. It is a nice and beautiful world they are building and if we stop for one second, then climb at the highest peak we can find, then look around — everything else is less important. So what if the neo-DE takes all the credit — they can’t stop and appreciate the world as I do.

Shardelyss.4807:

BobbyStein.2315:

Zin.1673:

The character is indeed voiced. Did you ever played your personal story ?

Warning: nerdy devspeak ahead!

The player character (PC) hasn’t had new voice recorded since the game launched, so you’ll only hear your character speak in the following circumstances: conditional chatter, in cinematic conversations in the Personal Story, and in painterly “full” cinematics. We retired cinematic conversations with the Living World, so right now the PC can only “talk” through unvoiced dialog trees.

We’re exploring some technical improvements that may allow the PC to speak under new circumstances, but it’s actually a bigger undertaking than one would imagine due to the complexity of player voice implementation (10 possible voices, currently shared lines of dialog that we want to split out, scene timing per language, etc.). That’s about all I can say at the moment.

In short, we’re looking to make the PC speak again, but it’s going to take a bit of time to redo the code and content pipelines to make it work, not to mention updating our tools to allow us to generate PC lines that deviate based on race & gender, prior accomplishments, etc. We’re not ready to announce what those changes will actually be or when they might be deployed, but we’re seriously looking into it.

As always, thanks for playing.

If this is true, then you have no idea how happy that made me to read. I had the first fan girl moment of a lifetime and I don’t normally squeee at all considering I’m usually so pessimistic.

But yay! This would be incredibly awesome if my characters can speak again. Even if it starts off as being generic dialogue at first…. but to just have a voice again and not be the invisible person holding the door for other characters to walk through.

?

?

?

Braham: Hey there.

Me: Hi, how are you doing?

Braham: Did you… just talk?

Taimi: What’s going on?

Braham: I think he just talked.

Me: Hi, shorty.

Taimi: HEY! He did talk. Hey wait a minute, did you just call me shorty? You do remember I have Scruffy here.

Me: (laughs) Never Change.

Kasmeer: Hey guys? Ready to move on? Is something wrong with our friend here?

Me: Taimi is threatening to flatten me with her Golem.

Taimi: It was only a warning.

Kasmeer: Did… he just speak?

Braham: Yeah. All this time and I thought he was a mute.

Jory: I heard talking, what’s going on here?

Kasmeer: The Commander just…talked.

Jory: Right. You didn’t just talk, did you?

Me: I might have, the verdict is still not in yet.

Jory: @#$%?! Does Rox know?

Me: Well -

Rox: Oh I knew already. Why do you think I’m sitting way over here. That guy can’t shut up for two minutes.

Me: O:-)

peruses skit

We should be friends. From ages ago XD

I think one of the main issues (and it’s not an easy issue to solve, but substantially easier when you’re limiting story to text instead of VO) is that the PC never really feels like a part of the group. All the other characters have these various ways that they relate to each other, but none of them relate to you. Of course, how can they? The PC has no consistent characterization. Despite that, the current LS is still a lot better in that regard. They do at least tend to treat you in dialogue as someone familiar, rather than random citizen #10009.

Still, it’s critical that the writing produce the illusion that the PC and the NPCs have some sort of relationship, or else players have substantially less reason to give a kitten about any of them or their personal dramas. I mean, at the end of the day, Tibs was written as your friend. You had in-jokes (apples, etc.), mutual friends (Demmi, who I just noticed yesterday carries the rifle he gave her when you liberate the Chantry before retaking Claw Island), he had some tragic history and aspirations, etc. You definitely don’t want a repeat of Destiny’s Edge, where you can just imagine them on the last airship fight saying “Hey, Eir, get to those guns! And you, uh, Eir’s friend that’s always hanging around, you go over there (and rez us all because we are totally worthless in combat despite eight dungeons worth of drama based on the premise that we could have taken on an Elder Dragon alone if only blah blah blah, a notion that seems laughable given the vast technology and manpower thrown at the task of defeating even a single dragon champion)”

I’d recommend pulling off the various biconics for some one-on-one issue sorting with the PC. I don’t mean let them work out their drama on their own or with another NPC while you act like a glorified bodyguard killing mobs and ressing them because they’re worthless in combat (Hi, Logan!). Just you, and Taimi, or Braham, or whatever, doing some stuff. Hell, maybe even have them do a favor for you.

Off topic, one reason the Marjory/Kasmeer thing fails is that it’s hard to have Marjory try to simultaneously play a cheesy noir trope while also trying to pull off something sincere. If you just embraced the silliness of it for both of them, dame-ing Kas up completely, it would probably work better. Alternatively, you could have Marjory break character and suggest that even in-world, the noir thing is just an affectation that she can’t really maintain when things get too rough.

Kaleban.9834:

ANet should take a page from the character design that went into the Mass Effect series.

Are . . . are you sure about this? Because they kind of did take a page from it. (And not much more.)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Kaleban.9834:

ANet should take a page from the character design that went into the Mass Effect series.

Are . . . are you sure about this? Because they kind of did take a page from it. (And not much more.)

If they took a page from the Bioware playbook, people wouldn’t be complaining about the biconics’ dating habits, they’d be complaining about all the biconics (well, hopefully not Taimi) trying to get in their PC’s pants; that, or debating about which imaginary person they most want to have their imaginary character have imaginary dry-humping escapades with.

basically you get noble six’ed meaning ur there for everything but get no credit and anet cant be bothered to write better story material so kitten it

perilisk.1874:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Kaleban.9834:

ANet should take a page from the character design that went into the Mass Effect series.

Are . . . are you sure about this? Because they kind of did take a page from it. (And not much more.)

If they took a page from the Bioware playbook, people wouldn’t be complaining about the biconics’ dating habits, they’d be complaining about all the biconics (well, hopefully not Taimi) trying to get in their PC’s pants; that, or debating about which imaginary person they most want to have their imaginary character have imaginary dry-humping escapades with.

I was more meaning one, singular, page – the biography bit at the start of Mass Effect where you handle how your character’s past happened and having it mildly-but-not-too-much affect the dialogue.

Regarding the Commander spoiler text, does it make a lot of sense canonically? It seems like a difficult thing to plausibly explain how you got from second in command of fantasy X-com to helping random refugees with “just because”.

It seems like the sort of dramatic change that would result from a fall from grace, or a falling-out with Trahearne, or something. You might have the option to just file it under “PC: I don’t want to talk about it” for now, but maybe filling in that blank would be an opportunity to establish a stronger bond between with DE2? Most RPGs have the player sorting out their companions’ dirty laundry and tragic backstories. Maybe this is one case where you could reverse the typical order of things.

Eh, just file it this way:

The Pact is on a bit of down-time since Zhaitan was killed, their duties right now are in trying to keep a lid on Orr’s Risen (which still remain after Zhaitan died for some reason) and keeping a front active against the Icebrood and Claw of Jormag (yes, that is Pact up there). The Commander is not needed there, so they took leave and wound up sticking their nose into local affairs. (You can even claim it’s to build goodwill.)

The rest of it can be filed under “Chronic Hero Syndrome”. It’s assumed the Player Character is going to take part, rather than say “eh, screw this I’m going to find a Southsun beach not infested with karka or drakes and laze about for a few months”.

Or that they didn’t go “Oh, Forgal died? Good luck with the dragon suckers, I’m turning Mist Warrior.”

I currently level up some twinks I had in stasis for a long time.
I get to experience a lot more of the story than ever before and I must confess that I find it lacking more and more.

Warning! Spoilers!

Right now I’m pulling up a charr engineer in the priory who takes two Sylvari and their trained troops to free claw island. Besaid Sylvari are the same you meet later when you try to lure the mouth of zhaitan out with a magical mirror…which I did with the same char.
They don’t even mention an earlier meeting in a sidenote of the text-conversations.
I pulled up a asuran thief who met Professor Gorr in three different story-segments and never ever he remembered her.
Not even in a text-note.
Even Gwen from Guild Wars 1 Eye of the North remembered the pc when he was of ascalonian origin and commented on that. She met the pc when she was a child and still remembered him. Guild Wars 2’s NPC’s can’t remember the pc even though they saw them multiple times in the same year and had lifechanging victories with the pc.

More and more I feel my characters being excluded from the story and the living of the world.
Still, I kinda like the new characters, although they appear to me mostly as uncreative.
The shining star for me is Rox.
Braham’s design is a typical “Bro”, put him in a sci-fi armor and color his red hair brown and you get James Vega from Mass Effect 3. I liked how he became Taimi’s makeshift bigger brother, but even this originality seems to bleach out.
Kasmeer and Jory are likeable. However, the funny detective-identity of Delaqua fades out like the color from the sequence of her journal.
Except for sidenotes like “The plot thickens” she is as much a detective as pretty much any other NPC in the personal story who has functioning eyes.
Taimi…well, I like the Asura, but her only identity is pretty much this: Scarlet-Fangirl who limps around.

I found several discussions in these forums about how nobody recognizes the pc as commander or in any other way.
Often I read the argument that the victory against zhaitan was two years ago and that there are now more commanders in the pact, so our pc is just one of many.
I even read that it’s normal since there is no TV or press showing the face of the pc.
I find these arguments as empty as they can be.
Destiny’s Edge only almost brought down an elder dragon and they are pretty much tyrian-idols with kids playing their adventures on the street.
The pc achieved something in its home(snaff prize, hunter, hero against a centaur attack…), the pc formed the three orders into the pact, the pc reunited Destiny’s Emos and the pc was the leading commander in the attack against zhaitan where the pc also brought along DE. Now the pc is mentioned on monuments in Lions Arch for bringing down Scarlet.
If five random tyrians, who failed years ago at killing an elder dragon, are known to everyone while the pc, with all those achievements, is meant to remain unrecognized in a period of two years of heroic deeds, something is off.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Eh, just file it this way:

The Pact is on a bit of down-time since Zhaitan was killed, their duties right now are in trying to keep a lid on Orr’s Risen (which still remain after Zhaitan died for some reason) and keeping a front active against the Icebrood and Claw of Jormag (yes, that is Pact up there). The Commander is not needed there, so they took leave and wound up sticking their nose into local affairs. (You can even claim it’s to build goodwill.)

Yeah, I’d have to agree with that. It makes a lot of sense that my character took some well needed time off because he went above and beyond the call of duty. And while on his down time, he got involved in this whole Scarlet fiasco…

Dear Trahearne:

Yeah, I’m sorry, I know I said I’d write often, but things got unexpectedly busy.

I did hear that you promoted a few more commanders to take care of things in my absence which was a good call as I don’t think I’d be able to head back any time soon.

There are some issues happening here and I need to look into them. You know how it is, I can’t sit idle without sticking my nose into things. If I don’t do it, who knows who will.

But don’t worry, you know me. I’ll be fine. I’ve taken care of myself this far… and besides there’s a group of kids I have to keep an eye on. Without me, they’ll do themselves a mischief.

I know you always say keep an eye for new recruits for the Pact, but… lets just say Orr is not a place I think they’ll ever be ready for…

I’ll keep sending back periodic reports and I’ll look for your messages in the usual place.

Yours very truly,
Shardelyss,
The Commander

Sir Vincent III.1286:

It is not hard to understand the vision that ArenaNet is trying to accomplish. In a sense, it makes sense as a person goes through their real life experiences.

The Personal Story is likened to a person going through school from K-12 that their whole world is all about them, thinking that the world revolves around them, that all deeds needs to be recognized else they throw a fit. But as soon as this person becomes an adult, this person is overwhelmed with the vast open world that the first reaction is fear of uncertainty and demanding that things should stay as they were — back to all about them. The Living World reflect the adulthood of a person and the reaction to the Living World is that of young adult’s fear of uncertainty.

Adulthood is no longer about you, nor the world ever revolves around you. Sometimes, people you work with will take the spotlight even if you have done above and beyond the call of duty. As an adult, we learn to compromise, adapt, and deal with the situation even if we are not regarded by name. This is what the Living World is trying to portray, that after reaching Level 80, we are now adults ready to take on the world.

As an adult we choose how we are going to live our lives. In GW2, some choose to fight in the Mist, some choose to tackle the Fractals, some prepares for the next big threat, and some likes to explore the Dungeons. Others like the peaceful life of crafting items, trading in trading post, or just hanging out in Divinity’s Reach Party Around the Clock crowd. Thus ArenaNet is striving to accommodate to all walks of our GW2’s life.

I may not agree with a lot of decisions and indecision — actions and inaction — coming from ArenaNet, but it is undeniable that the world of Tyria is indeed beautiful. It is a nice and beautiful world they are building and if we stop for one second, then climb at the highest peak we can find, then look around — everything else is less important. So what if the neo-DE takes all the credit — they can’t stop and appreciate the world as I do.

I for one think your analogy is garbage. The Personal Story itself isn’t even “all about you”. It was largely about how your character affects these various NPCs and organizations he/she encounters and playing the hero. It stopped being about you around level 20. You’re trying to reach way too far here to make an analogy that sounds noble, with a side order of condescension while you’re at it.

BobbyStein.2315:

Warning: nerdy devspeak ahead!

The player character (PC) hasn’t had new voice recorded since the game launched, so you’ll only hear your character speak in the following circumstances: conditional chatter, in cinematic conversations in the Personal Story, and in painterly “full” cinematics. We retired cinematic conversations with the Living World, so right now the PC can only “talk” through unvoiced dialog trees.

We’re exploring some technical improvements that may allow the PC to speak under new circumstances, but it’s actually a bigger undertaking than one would imagine due to the complexity of player voice implementation (10 possible voices, currently shared lines of dialog that we want to split out, scene timing per language, etc.). That’s about all I can say at the moment.

In short, we’re looking to make the PC speak again, but it’s going to take a bit of time to redo the code and content pipelines to make it work, not to mention updating our tools to allow us to generate PC lines that deviate based on race & gender, prior accomplishments, etc. We’re not ready to announce what those changes will actually be or when they might be deployed, but we’re seriously looking into it.

As always, thanks for playing.

I have to ask: With such an obvious problem, how is it that you didn’t have a plan in place to deal with this? Or did you have one, and it’s somehow fallen through?

Even before the Living Story was started, you knew you’d be adding content to the game sooner or later. Sooner or later, this would become a problem. I find it horrifying to think that you guys launched without a way to address it.

tekfan.3179:

If five random tyrians, who failed years ago at killing an elder dragon, are known to everyone while the pc, with all those achievements, is meant to remain unrecognized in a period of two years of heroic deeds, something is off.

It’s more a sign they had no real idea how to integrate the PC into the Living Story with Personal Story in mind, other than to assume they had already finished it (see the obvious patch over it in how you now must finish Personal Story to get into LS2). They were clearly not sure how far to take it and what to assume player characters had already done other than their tutorial instances . . .

And they’re playing catch-up now, which makes it frustrating to watch and there’s small fumbles here and there which I overlook but when brought up go “yeah, hm”. Fridge Logic at its finest . . .

Honestly, there is character to the B-iconics but it suffers from them not being consistently present in LS1 and sometimes not entirely present at all other than to be stuck in there as “hey, we’re still here”. Aside from Tower of Nightmares and everything after that, the B-iconics got very little character to develop at all.

This is probably why they feel “easy to bleach out and blur” – which is also reminiscent of almost every other character in GW1 whose name was not Gwen.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

tekfan.3179:

If five random tyrians, who failed years ago at killing an elder dragon, are known to everyone while the pc, with all those achievements, is meant to remain unrecognized in a period of two years of heroic deeds, something is off.

It’s more a sign they had no real idea how to integrate the PC into the Living Story with Personal Story in mind, other than to assume they had already finished it (see the obvious patch over it in how you now must finish Personal Story to get into LS2). They were clearly not sure how far to take it and what to assume player characters had already done other than their tutorial instances . . .

And they’re playing catch-up now, which makes it frustrating to watch and there’s small fumbles here and there which I overlook but when brought up go “yeah, hm”. Fridge Logic at its finest . . .

Honestly, there is character to the B-iconics but it suffers from them not being consistently present in LS1 and sometimes not entirely present at all other than to be stuck in there as “hey, we’re still here”. Aside from Tower of Nightmares and everything after that, the B-iconics got very little character to develop at all.

This is probably why they feel “easy to bleach out and blur” – which is also reminiscent of almost every other character in GW1 whose name was not Gwen.

I agree completely that not every character in GW1 was the memorable depthly creation like Gwen.
Still I remember Mhenlo’s relation with Cynn and the constant bickering in it.
I remember Thackeray and how he tried to land on Gwen, I remember Glint…there are so much iconic characters I remember who played a big role without ever making me feel like I played their henchmen, instead of going on an adventure with them.

While the GW1-characters had a lot more appearances in the multiple expansions than the GW2 B-Iconics so far, I think that’s not all of it.
However, most of the characters in GW1 were nothing but henchmen you picked up like mercenaries while Anet designed the Living Story with the B-Iconics as main-protagonists. They are supposed to be the big friends the pc made while fighting off Scarlet and her minions, yet we know barely anything about them.
Mostly I feel more attached to the dead order-tutors than to the posse we’re running with now.
We had a few combat-instances with them in Season 1 and Taimi only attached herself to the group at the end without having much to do either.

GW1 often managed to introduce characters in a short time way better than the Bicons until now.
My example: Eye of the North.
Within minutes I was taken by Ogden and Vekk.
Vekk, Jora and Ogden had established their role within minutes with their character design and dialouge.
Simply as Jora paced towards the group with her armor and size in the first encounter she embodied everything norn that I had to know.
The only character of the B-Iconics that managed to take me like that within the first minutes was Rox, which is probably the reason why I like her the most.

In my opinion Anet should have interjected a short time of peace between the two seasons with a few short story-instances to get to know the Bicons personally.
Things like:
Taimi has to do a presentation in her college and you accompany her to talk about scarlet. The other progenies could react differently if the pc is asura.
Braham invites us to visit him in his village, he arrives with the pc in tow, only to see that the whole village is setting up a celebration for him. We hunt some food with him and after the celebration have a talk with Braham in front of a slowly dying firepit with each a mug of ale in our hands.
We join Rox’ debriefing with Rytlock and spent some time with her and stand in when she is being discriminated because she is a gladium. Including a charr-barfight.
Kasmeer and Jory invite us to a picnick and we solve some small cases like a lost puppy, who always steals the cake from a farmer or what else.

tekfan.3179:

I agree completely that not every character in GW1 was the memorable depthly creation like Gwen.

And even that has issues when you step back. Issues as in you can stop and go “. . . that’s Sarah Conner”.

Still I remember Mhenlo’s relation with Cynn and the constant bickering in it.
I remember Thackeray and how he tried to land on Gwen, I remember Glint…there are so much iconic characters I remember who played a big role without ever making me feel like I played their henchmen, instead of going on an adventure with them.

Lieutenant Thackeray was better than most, but he was still . . . I dunno, “Dogged Nice Guy” pursuing a girl who couldn’t accept him. At least until after War in Kryta. Then he got more work done on him . . . primarily because it was decided Logan had to exist descended from him.

(The apple does not fall far from the tree, I will note, with regards to these two characters.)

While the GW1-characters had a lot more appearances in the multiple expansions than the GW2 B-Iconics so far, I think that’s not all of it.
However, most of the characters in GW1 were nothing but henchmen you picked up like mercenaries while Anet designed the Living Story with the B-Iconics as main-protagonists. They are supposed to be the big friends the pc made while fighting off Scarlet and her minions, yet we know barely anything about them.

We know as much if not more than we did about henchmen like Stefan or Aleisa, despite four “chapters” of campaign/expansion work. Heck, we know more about at least two of them than we do about Prince Rurik who we were supposed to feel for when he died.

Mostly I feel more attached to the dead order-tutors than to the posse we’re running with now.

The further I get from the death of Tybalt the more I think he was a wasted opportunity of a character. He should have been saved to die in Orr rather than that early, and we should have gotten a better Whispers mentor.

Also, can’t wait to see Sieran die. Horribly. I may abandon the mission at the last minute so I can watch it again.

We had a few combat-instances with them in Season 1 and Taimi only attached herself to the group at the end without having much to do either.

I’ll take “reasons to never ever put children in your MMO for 1000, Alex”.

GW1 often managed to introduce characters in a short time way better than the Bicons until now.
My example: Eye of the North.
Within minutes I was taken by Ogden and Vekk.
Vekk, Jora and Ogden had established their role within minutes with their character design and dialouge.
Simply as Jora paced towards the group with her armor and size in the first encounter she embodied everything norn that I had to know.
The only character of the B-Iconics that managed to take me like that within the first minutes was Rox, which is probably the reason why I like her the most.

It’s funny, I didn’t know enough about Rox until after her instance to really like her. I liked Braham more, basically for going “no, you have to do something and if you’re not going to, I will” about the Molten Alliance attacks.

In my opinion Anet should have interjected a short time of peace between the two seasons with a few short story-instances to get to know the Bicons personally.

That takes time to develop and handle, and I don’t want them to run their efforts too close to the red line of “will this make it to finish and polish in time?” . . . because they did that already and what we got was the Zhaitan fight.

No. Thank. You.

I’d like to see the teams work on some sideline stuff they can slide in during LS2 where we can do downtime with them presumably at the Tangle Root camp and talk about things. Like the one instance in Lion’s Arch during the Marionette chapter . . .

I’d like them, much more, to think ahead to “Season 2 Epilogue” which can get some of these minor ideas integrated then . . . heck, let them be someone’s side-project like the SAB.

BobbyStein.2315:

For you, the game should be about the PC at the expense of the open world content and ambience. For me, and for Guild Wars 2, it’s about the world as a whole since it’s a cooperative, shared environment. Neither approach is wrong, but we decided to put more of our resources into bringing the world to life. I don’t regret that at all.

I would argue the Living Story replaces the “you” with “biconics”. If it was about the open world, the focus of the second instance would be on the Zephyrites, not Marjory and Kasmeer’s relationship. The same problems from focusing on the “you” have been duplicated by focusing on the “biconics”.

There was actually a line in second Maguuma story instance which showcases how the sacrifices made for the biconics impacted on the story. A mention is made about the Soundless (if you are a sylvari you have more to say, but every PC says something whether that knowledge makes sense or not). Lots of the big theories about Season Two and the current content revolve around the sylvari, the Dream, the Entity/Mordremoth and what happened to the minds of Scarlet (who entered Omadd’s device) and Aerin (who is possibly Soundless). So we have a big plot thread about sylvari going on here. Of the five playable races, the one that is not represented by the biconics (and thus any racial specific lore, personal experiences etc) is the one that is most relevant to the plot. Everything that happens has to assume a sylvari is present and well for it (PCs who are sylvari) but none of the biconics can tell the plot thread about the sylvari because none of them represent that part of the world.

So we have awkward mentions of Soundless from characters that know little to nothing about sylvari or Soundless. You have sacrificed the open world, you didn’t do it for the players, you did it for the biconics (or GMPCs).

Another example is the battle for Lion’s Arch. The emotion of that story, the ownership of that city, the spirit of defiance or perseverance, none of that is best represented by the norn from Craigstead, the humans from Divinity’s Reach, the charr from the gladium quarters(?) of the Black Citadel, it’s represented by the marginalised voices of Lion’s Arch citizens, authorities and defenders who stood in the background while the biconics took the spotlight. Even the PCs (who log in and out of Lion’s Arch most days) had more of a claim to the story of LA. If the Grove gets burned down by Mordremoth, who makes a more compelling cast of heroes that puts the world first, Caith, Trahearne, the other Firstborn and Secondborn along with sylvari heroes, or the biconics? I suspect the real answer would be the sylvari stand in the back while the biconics stand in the front (why not both?) but that isn’t putting the world first imo.

The PC isn’t the only character that has taken a back seat so the biconics can shine. The whole world of Tyria is taking a back seat. You can root the story in NPCs but I’d like it if you did it with better suited NPCs. We are still getting a story (biconic story competes with the other story imo) and the new map Dry Top has a story of it’s own which is separate from the biconics (I would argue it feels shallow and more temporaly specific than the rest of the GW2’s open worlds) but the biconic story is still front and center.

Shiren.9532:

Snip

Well written.

I feel like my character is taking a backseat role in everything that is currently going on. The current LS is a prime example of this:

A bit of a spoiler if you haven’t finished the LS and want to:

I didn’t have a voice. I didn’t have a choice. Hell, I was delayed in finding clues because Kas and Marj couldn’t stop talking about what they would do if the other was hurt and couldn’t continue the story until they were done.

I think the major problem is that throughout the story, our characters were continuously being praised, placing us higher and higher on the pedestal until the grand finale where Zhaitan is destroyed. Our characters have finally become heroes of Tyria. But wait, Trahearne got the credit…

Well, what about when the Karka destroyed Lion’s Arch that one time? We were called upon to travel to Southsun Cove and destroy the Ancient Karka. We eventually defeated it and saved the Sea of Sorrows! But wait, did anyone really acknowledge that we defeated it? Hmm…

So, how about when we took on Scarlet and eventually killed her? Well, we were acknowledged that our characters were the leaders… right? No one in LA today thanks me for saving their lives. Hmm…

TL;DR

If you’re going to build our characters up as high and mighty vanquishers of Zhaitan, the Karka, the Molten Alliance, Scarlet, etc., then don’t suddenly drop us down to the state where we have become less important than the Marj-Kas love affair. It’s a bit unnerving when we’re no longer recognized for our achievements (at this point, nearly everyone in Tyria would have heard of the player by now for all the accomplishments).

As for the posts regarding our character’s “disappearance” from the Pact over the years…

Storybooks, anyone?

Mister Midnight.9837:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

It is not hard to understand the vision that ArenaNet is trying to accomplish. In a sense, it makes sense as a person goes through their real life experiences.

The Personal Story is likened to a person going through school from K-12 that their whole world is all about them, thinking that the world revolves around them, that all deeds needs to be recognized else they throw a fit. But as soon as this person becomes an adult, this person is overwhelmed with the vast open world that the first reaction is fear of uncertainty and demanding that things should stay as they were — back to all about them. The Living World reflect the adulthood of a person and the reaction to the Living World is that of young adult’s fear of uncertainty.

Adulthood is no longer about you, nor the world ever revolves around you. Sometimes, people you work with will take the spotlight even if you have done above and beyond the call of duty. As an adult, we learn to compromise, adapt, and deal with the situation even if we are not regarded by name. This is what the Living World is trying to portray, that after reaching Level 80, we are now adults ready to take on the world.

As an adult we choose how we are going to live our lives. In GW2, some choose to fight in the Mist, some choose to tackle the Fractals, some prepares for the next big threat, and some likes to explore the Dungeons. Others like the peaceful life of crafting items, trading in trading post, or just hanging out in Divinity’s Reach Party Around the Clock crowd. Thus ArenaNet is striving to accommodate to all walks of our GW2’s life.

I may not agree with a lot of decisions and indecision — actions and inaction — coming from ArenaNet, but it is undeniable that the world of Tyria is indeed beautiful. It is a nice and beautiful world they are building and if we stop for one second, then climb at the highest peak we can find, then look around — everything else is less important. So what if the neo-DE takes all the credit — they can’t stop and appreciate the world as I do.

I for one think your analogy is garbage. The Personal Story itself isn’t even “all about you”. It was largely about how your character affects these various NPCs and organizations he/she encounters and playing the hero. It stopped being about you around level 20. You’re trying to reach way too far here to make an analogy that sounds noble, with a side order of condescension while you’re at it.

Ah, but you misread. My post is about the misconception of the player thinking that the Personal Story is all about them. There’s a big difference on what I’ve posted from what you think I’ve posted.

If you really believe that the Personal Story is all about you up to level 20 — you are mistaken — you simply believe that it was, and it was so. If you review everything you’ve done from Level 1 -20, none of them are about you -- it’s always been about somebody else.

My analogy is based on the misconception of someone thinking that they matter because the reality of it is that — you don’t matter at all. You’re nothing but an spectator ever since from the beginning. The Living Story will progress with or without you. You choose to join into the story because you want to matter, some how, but unfortunately, that’s just something you’ve convinced yourself. Nothing you do really matters.

On the flip side of your topic, I am being congratulated on killing Scarlet even though I didn’t even bother to participate on the finale. Perhaps I should create a thread complaining about getting the spotlight even though I don’t deserve it. lol.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If you really believe that the Personal Story is all about you up to level 20 — you are mistaken — you simply believe that it was, and it was so. If you review everything you’ve done from Level 1 -20, none of them are about you -- it’s always been about somebody else.

I’m . . . pretty sure that’s not entirely the case. My Blood Legion charr had part of his chapter there where he was hunting down something which had been left to him from his father, and it was pretty much about his birthright and not the people in the intermediate parts.

Furthermore, the one human storyline where White Mantle are after you due to your parentage is decidedly about you. (It also has Logan being useful and amusing.)

. . . lastly, there’s the norn chapter where you blacked out at a moot. And happened to steal a charr tank and “lose” it. So you’re press-ganged until it’s either found or you’ve served time enough. Yeah, that’s sort of about you since you’re basically owning up for your screwup.

I can see where you come from about a lot of the PS being less about the character but at the same time there are a few examples where it is. And those are actually some of the better chapters you can have. (I’d add Fall of Falcon Company in on that, because I actually really enjoyed the writing of that one. Also some of the norn chapters were really nice.)

The LS is less about “us” and more about “the world”. For some this is an issue, but it does boil down to one question which keeps coming up and I don’t have a real good answer to:

Just how many singular “special heroes” can there be?

. . . at least it’s handled better than EverQuest handled its vaunted Epic Weapon quests. "Sweet, I deciphered the mysteries of the elements long thought to be impossible to reconcile and have the Orb of Magi’Kot . . . as does most every magician past 60 . . . "

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Mister Midnight.9837:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

It is not hard to understand the vision that ArenaNet is trying to accomplish. In a sense, it makes sense as a person goes through their real life experiences.

The Personal Story is likened to a person going through school from K-12 that their whole world is all about them, thinking that the world revolves around them, that all deeds needs to be recognized else they throw a fit. But as soon as this person becomes an adult, this person is overwhelmed with the vast open world that the first reaction is fear of uncertainty and demanding that things should stay as they were — back to all about them. The Living World reflect the adulthood of a person and the reaction to the Living World is that of young adult’s fear of uncertainty.

Adulthood is no longer about you, nor the world ever revolves around you. Sometimes, people you work with will take the spotlight even if you have done above and beyond the call of duty. As an adult, we learn to compromise, adapt, and deal with the situation even if we are not regarded by name. This is what the Living World is trying to portray, that after reaching Level 80, we are now adults ready to take on the world.

As an adult we choose how we are going to live our lives. In GW2, some choose to fight in the Mist, some choose to tackle the Fractals, some prepares for the next big threat, and some likes to explore the Dungeons. Others like the peaceful life of crafting items, trading in trading post, or just hanging out in Divinity’s Reach Party Around the Clock crowd. Thus ArenaNet is striving to accommodate to all walks of our GW2’s life.

I may not agree with a lot of decisions and indecision — actions and inaction — coming from ArenaNet, but it is undeniable that the world of Tyria is indeed beautiful. It is a nice and beautiful world they are building and if we stop for one second, then climb at the highest peak we can find, then look around — everything else is less important. So what if the neo-DE takes all the credit — they can’t stop and appreciate the world as I do.

I for one think your analogy is garbage. The Personal Story itself isn’t even “all about you”. It was largely about how your character affects these various NPCs and organizations he/she encounters and playing the hero. It stopped being about you around level 20. You’re trying to reach way too far here to make an analogy that sounds noble, with a side order of condescension while you’re at it.

Ah, but you misread. My post is about the misconception of the player thinking that the Personal Story is all about them. There’s a big difference on what I’ve posted from what you think I’ve posted.

If you really believe that the Personal Story is all about you up to level 20 — you are mistaken — you simply believe that it was, and it was so. If you review everything you’ve done from Level 1 -20, none of them are about you -- it’s always been about somebody else.

My analogy is based on the misconception of someone thinking that they matter because the reality of it is that — you don’t matter at all. You’re nothing but an spectator ever since from the beginning. The Living Story will progress with or without you. You choose to join into the story because you want to matter, some how, but unfortunately, that’s just something you’ve convinced yourself. Nothing you do really matters.

On the flip side of your topic, I am being congratulated on killing Scarlet even though I didn’t even bother to participate on the finale. Perhaps I should create a thread complaining about getting the spotlight even though I don’t deserve it. lol.

Yes, it actually is about you to a point around level 20. The Norn side of things is a great example. Everything you do is based upon the choices YOU make, how YOU want to handle the situation. It’s stressed that YOU are building YOUR Legend. I liked the Eir consistently tried to distance herself from it, stressing that she is NOT the Hero anymore. You are. Eir was there to mentor you along, and nothing more.

This unfortunately not true in the slightest in regards to Caithe, who is about as bad as the current GMPCs is interjecting herself whenever possible. But I digress.

You’re getting all kinds of congratulation for killing Scarlet? Well goodness do I feel cheated, or blind as can be. I seem to be missing it.

Mister Midnight.9837:

You’re getting all kinds of congratulation for killing Scarlet? Well goodness do I feel cheated, or blind as can be. I seem to be missing it.

Well, there was the question which raised a fuss on the forums some months ago in the “Aftermath” instance in the Dead End where Marjory acknowledged you’d done it among other people . . .

By the way, another instance of the PS 1-20 not being entirely around the NPCs is the human storyline in chapter 1. Especially the street rat and commoner storylines, the noble one not so much . . . but it has Lord Faren being a goof so I forgive it.

Also, Blood Legion’s opening chapter? I really like how that one turned out. Building your own warband and then getting to use it? I loved it.

BobbyStein.2315:

Mister Midnight.9837:

Why does the game have to be open world at the expense of the PC? That’s a complete cop-out.

Actually, it’s the reality of game development. You have limited budget and time to work with, so scope must be adjusted to fit. Features must be prioritized, and sometimes that means cutting content or systems.

http://www.ambysoft.com/artwork/ironTriangle.jpg

So you’ve not added in-game PVE rewards and PVE dungeon content for more gem store outfits? This is why you don’t get my money anymore. Everything worth a kitten you have to throw money at anet for, and most of that is RNG so you throw even more money at them. It’s a great business plan, but it makes people hate you, and your company.

Continue on your current path, and your ship will sink.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m . . . pretty sure that’s not entirely the case. My Blood Legion charr had part of his chapter there where he was hunting down something which had been left to him from his father, and it was pretty much about his birthright and not the people in the intermediate parts.

If you reflect on what actually transpired, you’ll see that it’s all about your father and not you.

Furthermore, the one human storyline where White Mantle are after you due to your parentage is decidedly about you. (It also has Logan being useful and amusing.)

Again, this is more about your parents than you. Nothing was mentioned who brought you up and kept you safe all this time ever since your parents died. Nothing was mentioned about which school you attended, who’s your mentor, who’s your childhood rival was, love interest, etc. Nothing.

. . . lastly, there’s the norn chapter where you blacked out at a moot. And happened to steal a charr tank and “lose” it. So you’re press-ganged until it’s either found or you’ve served time enough. Yeah, that’s sort of about you since you’re basically owning up for your screwup.

Again, this is more about your Charr chugging buddy than you. You’re simply blamed on what had happened. Nothing was ever mentioned on who you are before the incident nor what were the circumstances between you and the Charr.

I’d add Fall of Falcon Company in on that, because I actually really enjoyed the writing of that one.

I agree that the writing is enjoyable, yet it has nothing to do about you, it’s about a missing Seraph Company and the injustice of the captain — one of the soldier simply just happen to be your sister.

The LS is less about “us” and more about “the world”. For some this is an issue, but it does boil down to one question which keeps coming up and I don’t have a real good answer to:

Just how many singular “special heroes” can there be?

. . . at least it’s handled better than EverQuest handled its vaunted Epic Weapon quests. "Sweet, I deciphered the mysteries of the elements long thought to be impossible to reconcile and have the Orb of Magi’Kot . . . as does most every magician past 60 . . . "

What I’m saying is, it was never about us to begin with. The idea that it’s about us is nothing but an advertising hype that was never delivered.

Mister Midnight.9837:

Yes, it actually is about you to a point around level 20. The Norn side of things is a great example. Everything you do is based upon the choices YOU make, how YOU want to handle the situation. It’s stressed that YOU are building YOUR Legend. I liked the Eir consistently tried to distance herself from it, stressing that she is NOT the Hero anymore. You are. Eir was there to mentor you along, and nothing more.

You might be making the choices but it’s not about you, it’s always about somebody else — and Eir is a liar. All those time saying to you that she doesn’t want to be the hero, yet she and her pals was there when Zhaitan fell. She just want you to believe that it was about you when in fact she’s just toying you and used you to help her and Caithe to get the Destiny’s Edge back together again.

This unfortunately not true in the slightest in regards to Caithe, who is about as bad as the current GMPCs is interjecting herself whenever possible. But I digress.

No difference. Caithe, Logan, Eir, etc. they are all the same.

You’re getting all kinds of congratulation for killing Scarlet? Well goodness do I feel cheated, or blind as can be. I seem to be missing it.

“all kinds of congratulation” is not what I said. I said “I am being congratulated on killing Scarlet even though I didn’t even bother to participate on the finale.”

If you missed it, then you didn’t talk to the biconics during the Festival. I remember Braham saying to me that we beat Scarlet that he got some broken bones and Rox saying that we deserve the crowd’s appreciation — even though I wasn’t there to beat Scarlet.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You might be making the choices but it’s not about you, it’s always about somebody else — and Eir is a liar. All those time saying to you that she doesn’t want to be the hero, yet she and her pals was there when Zhaitan fell. She just want you to believe that it was about you when in fact she’s just toying you and used you to help her and Caithe to get the Destiny’s Edge back together again.

Haha oh wow, this right here.

Yeah, sure, okay

Mister Midnight.9837:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You might be making the choices but it’s not about you, it’s always about somebody else — and Eir is a liar. All those time saying to you that she doesn’t want to be the hero, yet she and her pals was there when Zhaitan fell. She just want you to believe that it was about you when in fact she’s just toying you and used you to help her and Caithe to get the Destiny’s Edge back together again.

Haha oh wow, this right here.

Yeah, sure, okay

Typical reaction of those who cannot deny that the truth just slapped the on the face.

I understand that the truth is a jagged little red pill and you choose to take the smooth blue pill.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m . . . pretty sure that’s not entirely the case. My Blood Legion charr had part of his chapter there where he was hunting down something which had been left to him from his father, and it was pretty much about his birthright and not the people in the intermediate parts.

If you reflect on what actually transpired, you’ll see that it’s all about your father and not you.

You’re not thinking the right path. I took the “Loyal Soldier” path, where the events were centered on finding that heirloom because it was owed to my charr. This was not “Honorless Gladium” or “Sorcerous Shaman”.

It started with “by the way, your father left you this”, but it’s entirely about my character deciding it’s his and going to get it. The enemies are not his father’s enemies, they are his.

Furthermore, the one human storyline where White Mantle are after you due to your parentage is decidedly about you. (It also has Logan being useful and amusing.)

Again, this is more about your parents than you. Nothing was mentioned who brought you up and kept you safe all this time ever since your parents died. Nothing was mentioned about which school you attended, who’s your mentor, who’s your childhood rival was, love interest, etc. Nothing.

No, it’s about my character. After all, he’s the one being targeted for death, isn’t that right? Cannot get more personal than “I am going to kill you”.

Well none of that is relevant to the short little plotline, is it? Though if it had been my ranger, it would have been the Commoner thread, so we would have known who kept him safe since his parents died.

Repeating something I said a lot during the CDIs – the Personal Story chapters really seemed too “interchangeable” in some places, to the point where the seams became really visible. This was one such instance.

. . . lastly, there’s the norn chapter where you blacked out at a moot. And happened to steal a charr tank and “lose” it. So you’re press-ganged until it’s either found or you’ve served time enough. Yeah, that’s sort of about you since you’re basically owning up for your screwup.

Again, this is more about your Charr chugging buddy than you. You’re simply blamed on what had happened. Nothing was ever mentioned on who you are before the incident nor what were the circumstances between you and the Charr.

Again . . . because who you are before the incident is not relevant to the plot thread there. Why do you have this fascination with extraneous details? From a writers’ standpoint, you have limited time and “real estate” to deal with the plot . . . and in these little chapters ANet left themselves barely enough time to handle the plot they chose.

Why complicate it with yet more threads which don’t go anywhere and might not ever come up? And from another angle . . . why decide these sort of things for the player when it could be their choice to fill in these blanks themselves?

I’d add Fall of Falcon Company in on that, because I actually really enjoyed the writing of that one.

I agree that the writing is enjoyable, yet it has nothing to do about you, it’s about a missing Seraph Company and the injustice of the captain — one of the soldier simply just happen to be your sister.

Way to take that out of context, thank you very much. I put that in the part where I talked about really good parts which didn’t have anything to do with the player character directly.

1/2

The LS is less about “us” and more about “the world”. For some this is an issue, but it does boil down to one question which keeps coming up and I don’t have a real good answer to:

Just how many singular “special heroes” can there be?

. . . at least it’s handled better than EverQuest handled its vaunted Epic Weapon quests. "Sweet, I deciphered the mysteries of the elements long thought to be impossible to reconcile and have the Orb of Magi’Kot . . . as does most every magician past 60 . . . "

What I’m saying is, it was never about us to begin with. The idea that it’s about us is nothing but an advertising hype that was never delivered.

What I asked was a question you ignored, but everyone should reflect on since Angel and Bobby have said it in different ways. So have Ree and Jeff from time to time -

Just how many singular “special heroes” can there be?

It’s an MMO, there are hundreds of us (if you believe the game is declining in population, otherwise “thousands of us”) running around, and the more you tie events to one character the more the other players’ characters are also “the chosen one” or whatever you call it.

It’s bad enough I know there’s many many more people who have Crusader Deborah as their long-lost-now-found sister. Or who were recruited into the Gear Warband. Or who watched Sieran die.

Honestly, and personally, I really want ANet’s writing and planning staff to decide if we’re going to have story revolve around our inclusion or move along around us. It doesn’t seem as if they can really decide sometimes . . .

2/2

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You’re not thinking the right path. I took the “Loyal Soldier” path, where the events were centered on finding that heirloom because it was owed to my charr. This was not “Honorless Gladium” or “Sorcerous Shaman”.

It started with “by the way, your father left you this”, but it’s entirely about my character deciding it’s his and going to get it. The enemies are not his father’s enemies, they are his.

I apologize for mistakenly thinking that you were talking about the gladium path. Regardless, how is loyal soldier path about you and not about your father and his treasure?

And when you find the treasure…it’s more about somebody else. It would have been nice if it shines a light about your past, not you father’s past.

No, it’s about my character. After all, he’s the one being targeted for death, isn’t that right? Cannot get more personal than “I am going to kill you”.

The only reason you are targeted is not because it’s personal, it’s because you are your parents’ child — you’re just an accessory.

I doubt the killer even know your name.

Well none of that is relevant to the short little plotline, is it? Though if it had been my ranger, it would have been the Commoner thread, so we would have known who kept him safe since his parents died.

Sorry, but Andrew and Petra are just friendly neighbors who probably know as much as you as you know of your character — nothing.

Again . . . because who you are before the incident is not relevant to the plot thread there. Why do you have this fascination with extraneous details? From a writers’ standpoint, you have limited time and “real estate” to deal with the plot . . . and in these little chapters ANet left themselves barely enough time to handle the plot they chose.

I understand the constraints but I am not one to believe in the delusion that the personal story is about my character.

Why complicate it with yet more threads which don’t go anywhere and might not ever come up? And from another angle . . . why decide these sort of things for the player when it could be their choice to fill in these blanks themselves?

If I am to believe that, then my actual personal story happened during my character creation and not in the actual “personal story”. The character creation says more about my character than the actual story ever did.

Way to take that out of context, thank you very much. I put that in the part where I talked about really good parts which didn’t have anything to do with the player character directly.

You said “I’d add…” so how was that out of context?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

What I asked was a question you ignored, but everyone should reflect on since Angel and Bobby have said it in different ways. So have Ree and Jeff from time to time -

Just how many singular “special heroes” can there be?

That question I ignored because it’s irrelevant and sounds rhetorical.

But if you want an answer, then yes, there can be more than one special hero. According to ArenaNet, my character was “the” commander of the Pact, but now he’s “a” commander of the Pact. Being the commander is personal, being a commander, not so much. However, even in the current plot of the Pact, my character was never “the” commander because if I choose a path, someone else completes the other paths.

ArenaNet have dissolved the idea of “singular” and “personal” even before launch. The ad campaign was accurate when they were still developing the game but was not delivered on release because of the fact that they are not building a single-player game.

It’s an MMO, there are hundreds of us (if you believe the game is declining in population, otherwise “thousands of us”) running around, and the more you tie events to one character the more the other players’ characters are also “the chosen one” or whatever you call it.

Bingo! With other players running around, how can you then say that the game and the story is about one character? What I’m saying is, it never was.

(1/2)

It’s bad enough I know there’s many many more people who have Crusader Deborah as their long-lost-now-found sister.

Deborah is a common name among crusaders in Kryta, didn’t you know? — that one just happen to be your long-lost-now-found-sister.

Or who were recruited into the Gear Warband.

It seems that the Gear Warband is a big group, they could be called a legion based on their number.

Or who watched Sieran die.

Nobody did. We assume she died because the Pale Tree told us so.

As for the other mentors; there was a suggestion way back when that since Sieran cannot come back as an undead, the other mentors should be part of the undead resistance when the Orders are retaking the island — which should prove that they did sacrificed themselves and did not run away like pansies.

Honestly, and personally, I really want ANet’s writing and planning staff to decide if we’re going to have story revolve around our inclusion or move along around us. It doesn’t seem as if they can really decide sometimes . . .

It has been decided. It’s obvious that what we’ve seen in the recent releases was decided long time ago and there’s no way we’ll ever be able to change their minds — we can’t go back to the past. That decision resulted our characters to play Dr. Watson while NPCs around us plays Sherlock Holmes.

(2/2)

Wow! That is some interesting news. Just one team now, instead of 4. How does the scheduling work now? Before each team had 4 months to ready their particular release, from start to finish. How does it work with just one team? Are the releases started 4 months in advance, still? Longer? Shorter? Are the team members working on the beginning of a release at the same time as the middle of another release, and the finishing touches of yet another release, all at the same time?

Inquiring minds want to know! Please. =)

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I apologize for mistakenly thinking that you were talking about the gladium path. Regardless, how is loyal soldier path about you and not about your father and his treasure?

And when you find the treasure…it’s more about somebody else. It would have been nice if it shines a light about your past, not you father’s past.

It does shine a light about my past, and not my character’s father . . . because it belongs to my character and the search was my character’s search, and the enemies my character’s enemies. The treasure is a birthright left by the father but it is not about how he got it, where it is from, or what it is. It’s about my character going “this is my birthright, and if it was meant for me then I’m going to find it”.

I don’t know how you begin to think this is about the father, in this case. I don’t even recall them talking about the father except to note he was a Loyal Soldier.

The only reason you are targeted is not because it’s personal, it’s because you are your parents’ child — you’re just an accessory.

I doubt the killer even know your name.

There is little more personal than “I insist this person has to die”, but that’s not the full deal.

Again, it starts with the parents, and while it bookends with the parents . . . the middle is about how my character handles the trouble. It’s not about the parents beyond the initial impetus . . . like the Loyal Soldier path, it’s the seed which starts the story but not the story itself.

Sorry, but Andrew and Petra are just friendly neighbors who probably know as much as you as you know of your character — nothing.

Ah, but they took in Tobias Trueflight and helped raise him.

I understand the constraints but I am not one to believe in the delusion that the personal story is about my character.

Eh, I only half agree. It’s about my character’s journey, even if the plot doesn’t revolve around them. (And gods am I tired of that . . . recently replayed Baldur’s Gate and remembered how, similarly, it’s not about my character so much as it is people hunting for them and a plot pulling puppet strings along the way.)

If I am to believe that, then my actual personal story happened during my character creation and not in the actual “personal story”. The character creation says more about my character than the actual story ever did.

I don’t agree, I think the choices which are made through the course of the Personal Story define the character and are supposed to show a path.

You said “I’d add…” so how was that out of context?

Because I didn’t add it to the others because it’s one where the plot is entirely about something else. It’s entirely about Falcon Company and the past events which the character is discovering now and dealing with. It’s still one of the better written segments. (Also good, Forgal’s mission where you get inducted into the Vigil.)

That question I ignored because it’s irrelevant and sounds rhetorical.

It’s very relevant to the discussion.

But if you want an answer, then yes, there can be more than one special hero. According to ArenaNet, my character was “the” commander of the Pact, but now he’s “a” commander of the Pact. Being the commander is personal, being a commander, not so much. However, even in the current plot of the Pact, my character was never “the” commander because if I choose a path, someone else completes the other paths.

ArenaNet have dissolved the idea of “singular” and “personal” even before launch. The ad campaign was accurate when they were still developing the game but was not delivered on release because of the fact that they are not building a single-player game.

Eh, I don’t know. Again, it may be the writer and tabletop roleplayer in me but the story is more in the journey than the details, and it is compounded by how you handle it. Are the Personal Story bits just minor bits to get done and move on, are they small-stage pieces of story, or are they singular points out of a whole tapestry you choose to weave together from those events and what happens with your character between Green Star Nodes?

Bingo! With other players running around, how can you then say that the game and the story is about one character? What I’m saying is, it never was.

The game isn’t about one character (and never was), and the story is still not about one character (not even Trahearne or Zhaitan) . . . it’s about a lot of characters, and ours happens to be in there as well.

It’s a start, not the whole thing.

1/2

Sir Vincent III.1286:

As for the other mentors; there was a suggestion way back when that since Sieran cannot come back as an undead, the other mentors should be part of the undead resistance when the Orders are retaking the island — which should prove that they did sacrificed themselves and did not run away like pansies.

I still think Tybalt jumped into the ocean and swam to Istan where he is drinking fruity drinks with little umbrellas in them.

No, not really. I think it’s just stupid how each and every one of the mentors decided they had to stay behind, when Tybalt is an engineer and could have come up with a way of rigging the gate to stay shut, Forgal could have held the line until the last minute, and Sieran could have used sylvari vines to reinforce the gate.

It’s unnecessary pathos.

It has been decided. It’s obvious that what we’ve seen in the recent releases was decided long time ago and there’s no way we’ll ever be able to change their minds — we can’t go back to the past. That decision resulted our characters to play Dr. Watson while NPCs around us plays Sherlock Holmes.

I’d love to be played by Lucy Liu or Jude Law. Unfortunately I don’t have that luxury.

. . . I’d even let myself be played by Burnie Burns, but that’s not going to happen.

Sir Vincent the Third:

By your logic, the only thing that can truly be a personal story is something like The Old Man and the Sea, where the protagonist is completely isolated from the rest of humanity for much of the story. People are always going to be influenced about what family, friends, neighbours, and enemies are doing and have done. I am who I am because I was born in a first world nation, to parents who made certain choices, and they are who they are because their parents made certain choices, all the way back to the first amoeba which somehow ended up trading genetic material with another amoeba rather than eating it. Does this mean that my life stops being about me and becomes about everything else instead? No, it means that those other things have become part of my story.

Angel McCoy.1832:

The Living World takes you from where the Personal Story dropped you off and carries you forward through your story. The story.

It doesn’t feel like that. My story ended with me as a member of the Pact, a member of one of the three Orders and a pseudo racial hero. Even if you discard my high rank in any of those organisations (which is fine – it does have awkward implications in an MMO), my identity in those organisations and their role in the world isn’t believably represented in the Living World.

In Flame and Frost we enter the Molten Facility. The Vigil took an interest in the Molten Facility and I have a Vigil character. Instead of engaging in that conflict with someone from the Vigil, or in any way dealing with the Vigil, I simply join Rox and Braham. That’s not my story, that’s their story. My story is the Vigil. Sure Priory and Whispers players entered the Molten Facility and limited resources come into play there, but my story as a Vigil member isn’t picked up on by the Living Story. It didn’t matter. I’m not those things any more (as the story seems to have decided, I’ve left my role in the Pact and in Vigil in all but name, I’m still in their “guild” but I never rep them any more, I don’t play with them any more, I’m busy reping the biconics because the biconic’s guild requires me to and if I don’t rep them they kick me out of the Living Story). I’m now entering Maguuma after being tipped off about an Elder Dragon, essentially investigating an Elder Dragon, and not once do I recognise the Pact at all. I don’t talk to Trahearne, I don’t work with Laranthir, I just go off as if I’m not a member of Tyria’s dragon specialists. How can you argue we pick up where we left off? The time line may, but my character doesn’t pick up, they discard.

Angel McCoy.1832:

3) Initially, when we created the original body of the game, we were especially careful to never break immersion by using PC dialogue lines that you might feel didn’t fit your PC. We’ve relaxed this with Living World content and it has proven a more positive experience for many, I hope. Our original thought was that you would add the personality to the words when you heard them in your head. We still know you will do that, but we’re now more comfortable with having your PC say things that commit to an idea or a knowledge or a thought that you the player might not have had. Our goal is to increase immersion and make you feel more like it’s your PC’s story.

It doesn’t feel like my PC’s story, it feels like your PC’s story. It’s your decisions, your values, your words. I am in no way comfortable with having my PC say things that commit to things like that. That defeats the purpose of it being my PC. It makes sense for my charr to have knowledge that only a charr would have and act like a charr would act even if that’s not me the player – that’s the race in the world I’m playing. In some ways, that’s the rule that results in creativity, the canvas for me to create an identity as a charr or a sylvari or a norn. I can add to it, but the game gives me that foundation. The Living Story, as you say, doesn’t do that.

It took away my PC and turned it into the sixth biconic. I simply say the things I’m supposed to say, just as any other biconic would do. If I don’t accept the positioning that you as writers create (and you have to admit, the writing has a very specific personality, one that would not be replicated in many of the players playing the game – threads like this one demonstrate that) then this kind of writing does not add to immersion – it completely breaks it.

I’ll mention again the observation of the stab wounds in the Zephyrites at the crash site. As a player I didn’t see that, mentioning them broke my immersion. Even if I accept the defence that not showing the stab wounds was a limitation, as a former Pact commander and a blood legion soldier, I wonder why I’m the one to approach a crime scene like Detective Beckett from Castle when I have not one but two PIs with me. It felt like a line of dialogue written for Marjory, but the writer wanted to include the player so it was cut from her and given to the PC.

Relaxing your caution about breaking immersion with what PCs say may have been rewarding for some players. What that comment doesn’t recognise is that it hinders the enjoyment of others. I don’t understand why you think that increases immersion. It takes our characters away from us and gives them to you, the writer. How you write my character in the world, and how I feel about the world is different and that conflict hurts immersion. The story becomes your voice, not mine.

Just adding my 2 coppers: I absolutely don’t feel the need for my character to be the center of the universe an the most heroic of all the heroes, I’m an adult and do not require spoonfed gratification and constant attention, thank you very much. The fact that my character is one of many people involved in a coordinated effort to achieve goals and defeat obstacles is much more immersive and fun for me.

In fact I always cringe in games, movies or books when one character single handedly saves the world.

On the other hand I find the constant presence of “bi-conics” to be a nuisance, I’d much rather see NPC’s who have actual motivation to be present during respective storylines, and rotate between stories. For example it made sense for Rox and Braham to be there during Flame and Frost etc., but in my opinion it would be better if in season 2 we would face Dry Top with the Seraph. Bi-conics dit in that storyline like a train in a grocery store.

Just my humble opinion, take it or leave it