Guild Wars 2

Hello all. I’m here today because I’ve realized some people really HATE Scarlet. And while i agree she is not the most interesting character of all, she is hardly the “worst thing ever created! omg this character is so stupid and dumb, she’s got no purpose…bla bla bla” that most people claim her to be.

First of, realize something, most people don’t know anything about character creation. Period. Not every player in GW2 knows this and they are often the ones whining more.

Second, Scarlet isn’t an original concept, no. Her character archetype has been done many times, in many story medias. But there is one that’s very famous, and people usually love him and don’t question (No, not Mary sue, she has nothing to do with Mary Sue if she did her plans would be successful all the time). That character is, The Joker (yes, as in Batman’s The Joker) The joker has no particular motive to do what he does. His origins differ, but they are all the same: he had something tragic happen to him and the only way he found to cope with it was to descend into madness, becoming a psychotic killer with no regard for any kind of life. reminds you of someone in GW2? What the Joker does have however, is a sick charisma to him which has grown over the years (He didn’t have it at first, it’s something that grew on the audience) which is what Scarlet lacks.

That is what Scarlet is. That is what Scarlet will be for now, until Anet decides if they want to turn her into something more.

Hope you all liked this “food for thought” and reconsider some opinions on Scarlet. This is by no means a “Scarlet is great omg! wtf!?” post. It is just a clarification for people pointing character faults that don’t really exist. Maybe you don’t like that type of character? It’s fine, no one likes all sorts of characters. But that doesn’t mean Anet created a horrible character.

As always, i welcome constructive criticism on my opinions. Sarcastic comments will simply be ignored by me as they’re not worth the time to respond to and, likely, neither is the person who made it. It’s just trash.

Cheers!

This. All of this.

The difference is that the Joker has been Batman’s nemesis since Batman #1 and Batman is also partly to blame for the creation of the Joker.

True, true Initialatom! But later on the joker has no particular reasoning for the mayhem he does. He just does it as it’s . Scarlet’s kinda of in the same page. This, like I said before, doesn’t make a character bad. Plus she is the only active villain in the whole game. The rest just stay in their areas like they’re stuck in a time loop.

Having read her story, I can assume her reasons have to do with the pale tree and caithe. Some secret those 3 characters know and scarlet wants to expose it (perhaps the pale tree IS a elder dragon afterall, or is related to one).

MajorValtiel.6310:

The joker has no particular motive to do what he does.

uh…. you clearly have no idea who joker is then his motivations have been made clear before you are to blame for not seeing them. The joker has motivation to take down batman by killing him, breaking him mentally or make those around distrust him by having him kill him. Why you may ask well batman was the one who made him nuts by pushing him into a vat a of chemicals that bleached his skin and made his lips red and must don’t know if he is really crazy or, if its just and act to egg on batman to finally break his code thus breaking the bat. that’s just one reason i have 2 others as for

scarlet o the other no just a shameless handling of this type of character to cash in on it while its still fresh in people minds

edit: woops forgot to mention this is pre new 52 joker ,new 52 joker is more… yea…

actually id prob like scarlet if they did a better job of bringing her into the ls. her character isnt a bad one its they just dumped her and had no build up and we were left scrambling to find info on her. i think if they would have spent time giving clues about her and had us take in an interest in her. we wouldnt dislike her so much. to me it felt like a vanilla villian dump. we knew there was someone but had no clues then they made one up and there she was. they dont provide any info on why she does what she does either. ok i take she a psycho but even crazies tend to have reasons why they do something. i havent seen any reason behind her yet except she likes combining things that dont go good together

I think you misunderstand two things about the complaints.

1) The issues with Scarlet often revolve around her obscene levels of power and control over other races. So far, three of the most xenophobic and hostile factions in all of Tyria have bent over backwards to fulfill her will, without any explanation as to why. The Flame Legion are misogynistic, xenophobic, and highly pyromaniacal, and yet the Living Story expects us to believe they dropped everything and bowed down to a foreign and highly flammable girl. The Dredge would die before they allowed themselves to be enslaved again, but they were somehow bullied or coerced into serving a single sylvari. The Krait never, ever, ever negotiate with outsiders…unless it’s Scarlet, in which case they’re sitting down at the conference table.

To use the Joker analogy, imagine that one writer decided that the Joker was suddenly in command of the League of Shadows, formed an alliance between the Sinestro Core and all of Lexcorp while calling the shots for both, and then got Apokalypse to combine tech with Thanagar in order to give him more minions. That would not be “good characterization”. That would be absurd.

Until the writers justify why anyone listens to a single psychopathic sylvari, the last eleven months of kooky alliances make Scarlet appear absurdly overpowered and completely unsuited for her “ultimate mastermind of all evil factions” role.

Speaking of pacing…

2) It’s not that Scarlet has no plan. It is that the story has failed to demonstrated one.

We have fought her for eleven months. Tell me, where do you think we are in the story? Is she about to unveil her ultimate plan, or is she starting to begin her actual goal? Are we winning the fight due to our efforts to destroy her facilities, or are we losing the war as her influence expands? Are we one month away from the grand climax, or will it take six?

We don’t know. That’s because the story has not revealed anything concrete about her methods or her ultimate goal. We are fighting her because she is the only thing on television right now, and we can’t change the channel. We could be two episodes in to a full twenty-four long season, or one episode away from the finale. But we can’t tell, because absolutely nothing has been done to convey what is going on or why we should care. That is why people say she has no purpose. No purpose has been conveyed, and after eleven months of fighting Scarlet Briar, “she might totally have a master plan that we will learn one day” isn’t giving people a reason to give a cute-baby-feline about the story.

The Joker works well because he thrives on chaos using methods that oppose the Batman. His tools of the trade are cheap (gasoline and spare parts), his minions are disposable psychopaths (Harley aside), and his primary weapon is his insane unpredictability. The “crazy lunatic” villain is not a Leader of Men or supreme savant of all technology. He is chaos incarnate, and that means very few people willingly serve him except out of pure greed or their own lunacy.

If you like Scarlet, you are entitled to that opinion. In turn, those who have legitimate complaints are well entitled to their opinions on the matter.

Shriketalon nailed it. +1, bro.

Shriketalon +1.

Hit the nail straight on the head there Shriketalon. +1

I don’t care about the Joker. Scarlet is just a bad villain, ridiculously OP and annoying. I was extremely disappointed in that she was also involved in the toxic thing, as I did want a respite from Scarlet and thought that plot interesting and fun.

I like Sylvari. I don’t like Scarlet. Traherane is a great guy, as much as people hate on him. The nightmare court sylvari make sense in the lore, Scarlet doesn’t. A Sylvari nemesis would be fine, but Scarlet is getting really boring and old (no offense to her writers… keep up the great work, just really tired of her being part of almost everything in the loving story.)

I am neutral about the Joker, and I don’t think about the Joker when I see Scarlet. I just find her ridiculous. The Joker was a better villain too, but that’s another lore and universe altogether-what makes Scarlet bad is not that she’s a “bad clone” of the Joker, but that she doesn’t make sense as a villain (clearly not as funny as she thinks either.)

1. If you have to compare Scarlet to the Joker, just to make her more “acceptable”, then something is most definitely wrong.

2. If anything, she is similar to Harley Quinn. But even that is a very, super-long stretch to make.

3. Scarlet is a pretty cool character. I think A-Net messed up with her delivery. She had potential, but with every update, it diminishes exponentially.

The relationship between Batman and Joker works on many levels. Batman was, prior to his reinvention as the Dark Knight, the symbolism of man’s heightened goodness. He saved the day, he refused to kill, he would use his mind instead of his might. He always saved the day. He was, in a sense, Superman without the super.

Joker’s introduction on the scene offered a dramatic foil. Batman was lawful, Joker was lawless. Batman was kind, Joker was cruel. Batman was sane, Joker was insane. They offered two classic archetypes forever locked in battle. It is a story that ranges back over the history of the written and spoken word.

However, there’s one real reason that Joker and Batman work. Joker is a psychotic character with sociopathic tendencies. Batman is a narcissist with a hero complex. They are both, at their very core, flawed. They’re both damaged. They play this tango, but they’re very much two sides of the same coin. Joker and Batman are both victims of someone else’s cruel game, but they play their parts.

There’s a fundamental depth in the characters as you explore them more and more. Is Batman just as delusional as Joker? Is Joker actually the sane one as he sees the world for its flaws? Batman reacts through blind protectiveness, Joker reacts through blind violence; who is the one who sees?

Then you have Harley who some say Scarlet is like, but she’s not. Harley is much like Joker in that she’s a pawn if someone else’s game. She was a perfectly sane woman until she met Joker, then she started to adopt the insanity of someone else. However, whereas Joker has a control over his psychopathy, Harley doesn’t. She’s violent. She’s uncontrollable. She can show mercy and compassion, but this isn’t the rule. It’s the exception. In the end, Harley wants only for Joker’s approval, but she never quite achieves that. So, in the end, she ratchets up the insanity. However, Joker’s true “love” is Batman…that will never stop Harley, though.

Scarlet is, uh, crazy. And she’s smart. And she’s powerful. And she’s convincing. Oh, and she’s crazy. She has no real foil. She has no real depth outside of this. Joker, Harley, and Scarlet only have their perceived insanity as the commonality. Joker and Harley quickly diverge from Scarlet when it comes to character depth, development, and implications on their respective lore.

initialatom.7531:

The difference is that the Joker has been Batman’s nemesis since Batman #1 and Batman is also partly to blame for the creation of the Joker.

Outside of some of the details mentioned by others, this is also an extremely important thing to note.

The Joker exists because of Batman, and Batman to some extent exists because of the Joker. The Joker works because, in Batman, he has a nemesis. It’s the interplay between the two that makes both characters better. Because the player in GW2 is essentially forced into the role of a Blank Slate and Scarlet’s actions are just lashings out at the world at large (or, at best, a faceless entity like the Tree) that key relationship doesn’t exist in GW2. Yes, Scarlet is absolutely 100% based on the Joker (or at least is clearly cut from the same cloth), but that doesn’t mean they are anywhere near each other in terms of quality.

I think the problems with Scarlet are within the Queens Speech. She shouldn’t have been revealed that way. In Queens Jubilee we got a nasty unknown. It was interesting.
Right after, we get to see her completly crazy side and beat her up shortly after… (multiple times in the invasions). And that stuck to be her character for some.

The Joker is obsessed with proving to others, especially Batman, that he had no choice in becoming what he is. That what he suffered left him no other option but to escape into madness. He has a love/hate relationship with Batman because Batman is living proof that the Joker is wrong; they both suffered great and tragic loss, but Batman arguably rose above it, while the Joker broke under it. Yet the Joker sees in Batman a kindred spirit which explains why he keeps trying to bring down Batman to his level. If he succeeds, it would vindicate what the Joker believed all along, that his actions since becoming the Joker were the right, and only, course of action he could have taken.

The problem so far with Scarlet (aside from her Mary Sue’ish aura) is that her actions and alliances have so far not really tied in to her larger goal, which is to “free the Sylvari (and perhaps all races) from destiny”. Her dialogue frequently suggests that she desires to burn down existing society so she can rebuild things from the ground up, but she seems to get sidetracked with all manner of side projects that don’t really tie in to that goal. For instance, with the latest release of the Tower of Nightmares, what did helping the Krait and Nightmare Court form the Toxic Alliance accomplish? The Krait aren’t likely to support Scarlet’s goal of “destroy everything”; they still want to set up a society where the Krait are on top, and yet the Krait are still shown as largely subservient to Scarlet’s (and the Nightmare Court’s) wishes. This doesn’t mesh with what we know of their racial mentality.

I’d be willing to accept the fact that the Toxic Alliance is only a means to an end to what Scarlet really wanted; perhaps Scarlet wanted them to develop the Hallucinogenic Spores which she needed for her REAL plans. However, it would be nice for players to get some hints towards this goal, rather than leaving us grasping at straws.

Shriketalon +1

Well put, OP.
Careful though… Comparing Scarlet to the Joker seems to offend some DC comic fans…
And nobody here likes to offend people be offended…
But more seriously…

Shriketalon.1937:

I think you misunderstand two things about the complaints.

1) The issues with Scarlet often revolve around her obscene levels of power and control over other races.

snip due to posting limits

Actually, the part where she has ‘obscene levels of power and control over other races’ is not true.
She’d probably like you to think that (if she actually cared about what you thought…) but her control of the other races does not seem as absolute as all her detractors like to make it seem.
During the Flame and Frost story, many clues were dropped that the alliance between the Dredge and the Flame Legion was rather strained. There was one report from an Ash Legion spy of a Flame Legion Shaman that was executed for refusing to imbue the Dredge with flame magic (or something along those lines.) And at the end of the FnF story, the Dredge and Flame Legion captives were blaming each other for their failure.
As for why the two groups could ever work together?
Well let’s see…
Both groups have common enemies. Both groups have suffered some rather harsh defeats at the hands of those enemies. The Dredge are in the middle of a Civil War, while the Flame Legion is in a crisis with the loss of its Imperator, Baelfire.
Put separate, disparate groups in such crisis, and they will do things that they normally wouldn’t.

Then you have the Krait and the Nightmare Court.
It’s been confirmed that the Toxic alliance does not include /all/ the Krait and Nightmare Court, but rather splinter groups from each. This would indicate that those that are part of the Toxic Alliance have grown disillusioned and/or frustrated towards their parent groups. And those kind of disillusioned splinter groups are very often easier to manipulate, especially if you have something to offer them…

Now why would such groups follow someone like Scarlet?
Simple. Scarlet offered them something they simply couldn’t refuse.
For the Dredge and the Flame Legion, it was power. The power to combat and strike back at the enemies that had dealt them some serious blows and a chance to climb out of their respective crises.
For the Krait, it was their obelisks and the promise of the return of their Prophets. This not only played on the disillusion of a splinter group, but also on their religious sensibilities as well.
For the Nightmare Court… well this one would have been easy for Scarlet to bend to her will, really. There is already a splinter group in Mount Maelstrom that didn’t follow Faolain, so it’s not difficult to see others like them following someone else…
Such instabilities and crises can very often be (and usually are) exploited by those who are both intelligent enough to see it and know how to take advantage of it, and charismatic enough to know what to offer.
This does not require ’obscene levels of power and control’. Just an ‘Adolf Hitler’ level of charisma, some decent intelligence and the knowledge of some secrets that most mortals don’t know. The kind of secrets one could probably see when they gaze upon all of creation… Much like Scarlet supposedly did in Omadd’s experimental module…

Shriketalon.1937:

Speaking of pacing…

2) It’s not that Scarlet has no plan. It is that the story has failed to demonstrated one.

snip again due to posting limits

You are forgetting or ignoring the simple fact that over the past 11 months (not all of which have been devoted to her specifically no less) Scarlet has had only a relatively small amount of screen time.
Like it or not, this is an MMO, not a book or a TV series. The limitations of writing for such a medium is very much different.

Shriketalon.1937:

If you like Scarlet, you are entitled to that opinion. In turn, those who have legitimate complaints are well entitled to their opinions on the matter.

‘Legitimate’ is a relative term.
I have my opinion. You have yours.
I’d love it if I could share my opinions without someone constantly trying to forcefully hammer theirs over my head and me constantly feeling like I need to defend my myself for simply playing a game I enjoy…

TL;DR? There are plenty of reasons Scarlet isn’t as ‘OMG BAD CHARACTER!!!’ as people would make her out to be, and there are possible reasons why things happen in the game the way they do.
But, people will have their ‘opinions’ and nothing I say will ever change that.

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

You are forgetting or ignoring the simple fact that over the past 11 months (not all of which have been devoted to her specifically no less) Scarlet has had only a relatively small amount of screen time.

You don’t have to have Scarlet present to find out information about her. But even after Frost and Flame, Dragon Bash, Sky Pirates of Tyria, Queen’s Jubilee, Clockwork Chaos, Twlilight assault, Tower of Nightmares, Nightmares Within… what have we learnt about her motives? Nothing. Some people who found the short story on this website have learnt a little about her origins, and that’s it.

8 chapters and how has her character developed? Just another failed alliance where she teleports away in the end. I’m worried at this level of pacing Scarlet could be boring us for years before anything new is discovered.

The content is good but the lead antagonist has the depth of a puddle. I just wish the writers would step up to the level of the art/design team.

There is really no reason to compare Scarlet with the Joker.

The Joker is an Antagonist, Batman’s counterpart: Colorful, talkative, charismatic, expressive. He portrays a hard contrast to the dark setting of gotham city and its hero. There’s a special kind of interaction between them, which only works because of their opposed equivalence. It’s like black and white, ying and yang, you’ll never question it, the Joker is Batman’s natural enemy.

Not so scarlet. She’s just a lost child, fighting everyone and everything, without having a real enemy. Today she plans to assassinate the queen, tomorrow she terrorizes all of tyria and some time later she showes up again, tieing different species together, building up a huge tower in which she creates an inefficient hybrid – and we still dont know anything about her inner urge.
There’s a plenty of people claiming Scarlet is a deep or complex character. Well, i have to tell you she’s not, she is as flat as a blank sheet of paper. Can you imagine her doing something else than coming up with another evil idea and giggling all the time? Nope. So no complexity here (that’s how it works, really).
While the Joker sometimes was really angry about his failures, showing alot of different feelings (last but not least remind his relationship with Harlequin), scarlet lacks every form of characteristic. Though we foiled every single of Scarlet’s plans she never showed any desperation (btw, ANet, don’t let us win all the time!).

Scarlet just has nothing to say. And that’s why she seems to be so redundant.

Shriketalon.1937:

2) It’s not that Scarlet has no plan. It is that the story has failed to demonstrated one.

All the lore points towards Scarlet being disturbingly intelligent and to quote Ozymandias from Watchmen:

“Do it? Dan, I’m not a Republic Serial villain. Do you seriously think I’d explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago.”

Antubis.8935:

Shriketalon.1937:

2) It’s not that Scarlet has no plan. It is that the story has failed to demonstrated one.

All the lore points towards Scarlet being disturbingly intelligent and to quote Ozymandias from Watchmen:

“Do it? Dan, I’m not a Republic Serial villain. Do you seriously think I’d explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago.”

And another incoherent comparison. Changing from The Joker To Ozymandias doesn’t justify anything.
1. Ozymandias was successful with every little step of his plan, even with the “big thing” in the end, because Rorschach had no opportunity to tell the world what really happend. But Scarlet, as i mentioned before, didn’t achieve anything. Well, she claimed everything is still going according to plan, even after we killed her hybrid. How imaginative to make her inviolable no matter what!
2. Ozymandias did all of this steps secretly, noone knew that it was him. In Scarlet’s case we know it since her first appearance.
3. Scarlet is here since months, so if she triggered the “big thing” allready, where is it? I guess it’s waiting for the storyteller’s decision… the deus ex machina is always a killer for every story’s authenticity.

Just stop making those comparisons. That’s no excuse for this badly designed character and its background story.

I’m sorry but comparing Scarlet to the joker is an insult to the person who created him, the joker is one of the most well thought out villains in recent history.

We’ve got two conflicting roles with Scarlet. We have the persona she presents, the Performer, and her achievements, worthy of the Mastermind. She cannot be both, thus the conflict. I suspect that she is either a mastermind that acts well (in which case, playing the performer may have us misjudge her to her advantage), or she is the figurehead for someone/something else. She cannot be the pure performer she makes herself out to be, or she would perform to her alliances in much the same way she performs to Tyria at large, sending them into disarray.

Expectations:

• has access to a number of potent mesmers… To um persuade/mislead individuals.
• She has associates within the Pact, possibly even high ranking members of all three branches. At the very least, senior members of the Order are compromised.
• enjoys pulling strings. This is both a strength and a weakness. A string left unpulled is an opport its missed. Leaving strings for her to pull can draw her attention…
• a strong advocate of binary (always combining 2 groups)

My gut is pointing me to the centaurs… Even as we prune an overgrown weed, Scarlet is working to forge more alliances and sow more chaos. To what end….?

Yamagawa.5941:

Expectations:

• has access to a number of potent mesmers… To um persuade/mislead individuals.

Supposedly Scarlet was part of Teyo’s Krewe who invented the Floating Grizwhirl, an entry to this years Snaff prize. A device that hypnotises people to allow them to be controlled. Scarlet was kicked out of Rata Sun after her and Teyo were found breaking in to the city archives looking for designs.

Perhaps she uses this device to “persuade” leaders of different factions to do what she wants.

I know its a weak theory but its a possibility.