Guild Wars 2

Other than the continual mis use of the term cyberpunk, I find myself in much the same boat as the OP. I don’t know if I like the way things are going or not, and it certainly does put me in an odd space of really liking the gameplay but maybe being lost a little by the world around it. I’m certainly not going to say that ANet is doing anything wrong or uncalled for, but I am personally missing much of that old school fantasy feeling (even given how worn out and stereotypical much of it can be).

MokahTGS.7850:

I would really love it if people would stop trying to cram GW2 into their idea of what fantasy or sci-fi is and just let them tell a story and enjoy the ride.

IMO, GW2 is refreshing and does a great job of mixing both traditional fantasy with steampunk culture. It’s unique and fun and finally something new after years of the same ol’ thing.

They aren’t mixing it, that’s the problem. They are putting myths to the past and technology to the present, and the players feel like old remanants of history that don1t belong to the game.

i have faith in anet that they will put some fantasy back in the game soon

I really like the sci-fi themes. And I do think it fits. You had the 100% fantasy theme going on 250 years ago in Guild Wars 1… but even then there were signs of technology, and the world seemed like it was on the verge of a new age. So of course, in modern-day Tyria, technology will have vastly changed. Think of the difference between, say, the United States of 1750, and the United States of 2000. Huge advances!
I think it’s fitting that all this new, hyper-advanced technology is appearing because all the races have just recently become allies. Now that they’re combining their individual knowledge—both magical and mechanical—the results are bound to be spectacular. Asuran magic+Charr technology+Human gizmos+Sylvari growing magic+Norn craftsmanship? It all adds up to very advanced stuff.
Plus, since the races have Asura gates for swift transport, a universal language and writing system, the printing press, and Asuran computer memory—they can communicate freely. Distance isn’t a barrier—to an even greater extent than it is for us in the real world.
Also, I don’t think it’s contradictory to have warriors in armor, running around wielding swords, alongside tanks and machine guns because of one primary reason: Magic. The traditional sword-and-armor types have magic to enhance their physical abilities to superhuman proportions. If you look at the warrior skills, a lot of them use very minor, subtle magics to enhance physical performance. Kind of like a steroid with twice the effectiveness and none of the negative side effects. Combine that with sci-fi standard armor body suits and magic weapons… and your traditional sword-and-armor guy would accomplish a ton and not be obsolete at all.

As for lasers, airships, and robots co-existing with dagger-wielding bandits robbing farms and tribal hut-centaurs… you see some of that in real life. There are groups of humans who still live in tribal societies, build huts, and hunt with spears. There are traditional rural communities without technology. Combine that with the fact that, in Guild Wars 2, the technological expansion was only made possible over the past few years—it makes sense that you’d see a lot of that. When a new innovation comes out, no matter how fantastical or convenient, not everyone is going to immediately adopt it and become advanced. Culture, tradition, poverty, and all that other societal stuff comes into play. For example, in real life, flying cars have been designed, but you don’t see us everyday commoners zipping around in them. Designer babies have been designed too—parents can pick and choose exactly which of their genes they want their baby to have… but again, hardly anybody uses that.

Next step!

Asuran Space Agency, puddle jumpers and portals in space, fight the space dragon and space pirates.

Aeolus.3615:

Next step!

Asuran Space Agency, puddle jumpers and portals in space, fight the space dragon and space pirates.

That could actually be awesome. My favorite D&D setting was Spelljammer.

As for lasers, airships, and robots co-existing with dagger-wielding bandits robbing farms and tribal hut-centaurs… you see some of that in real life. There are groups of humans who still live in tribal societies, build huts, and hunt with spears.

The difference being that Industralized nations aren’t freaking out because a tribe of spear-wielding hunters is about to destroy the world with their mighty power.

Aeolus.3615:

Next step!

Asuran Space Agency, puddle jumpers and portals in space, fight the space dragon and space pirates.

PUDDLE JUMPERS!
I haven’t heard that in a while!

We just need the Asura to build a city in the ocean and were set!

Bovinity.8610:

As for lasers, airships, and robots co-existing with dagger-wielding bandits robbing farms and tribal hut-centaurs… you see some of that in real life. There are groups of humans who still live in tribal societies, build huts, and hunt with spears.

The difference being that Industralized nations aren’t freaking out because a tribe of spear-wielding hunters is about to destroy the world with their mighty power.

Right. Because an industrialized nation would never freak out and send an army to a country where people live in caves and shepherd goats…oh wait.

That said, in GW2 the more primitive cultures are still a threat because of magic. I mean, look at the centaur and their primitive lifestyle, then look at their leaders with their giant fire tornadoes and 50 foot tall stone hands that come out of the ground. Some factions are a threat in this game because of tech (charr) while others are a world power because of magic (Queen Jenna is super saiyan 4).

@op do you primarily play Norns and humans? I ask because as someone who plays asura and charr, the living world doesn’t seem like a “new direction” to me. GW2 has never been a traditional d&d or Tolkien-esque mmo, except perhaps in queensdale. High fantasy is definently one element of the gw2 fantasy trope mixing pot, but I don’t think it’s ever been the “main” one.

Gibson.4036:

I find villains with ambitions more compelling than the high fantasy typical dark-horde made up of dragon minions.

I completely agree. For this reason I think the Elder Dragons as they’ve been sold to us are fundamentally flawed as the main villains.

What I don’t see is how this point is relevant to the topic. You can have a fantasy story with compelling villains without turning the game into an episode of Doctor Who. Whether it’s a fantasy or sci-fi setting has no bearing on the character development you have access to.

I didn’t like the introduction of guns. I didn’t like the asuran aesthetic and I don’t like the stronghold steampunk has over the Living Story. Having said that, I very much doubt any of this nonsense about alternate realities, alternate selves and dopplegangers is going come through in the story. It’s far too off base for what GW2 is and all of those theories make wild assumptions and flimsy connections. There are far more simply explanations and directions for the story to go in that the alternate reality nonsense.

It’s a can of worms I’d rather the writers not open up, and I seriously doubt they will. It’s one thing to have the asuran personal story rooted in a very niche element of the game, it’s another to drag the entire expansion of the world in that direction. Asuran players choose to immerse themselves in that race and its culture. Exploring science experiments gone wrong was something they opted in for. It wouldn’t be fair to the rest of the world for that sci-fi theme to monopolise everything we do now.

panzer.6034:

Bovinity.8610:

As for lasers, airships, and robots co-existing with dagger-wielding bandits robbing farms and tribal hut-centaurs… you see some of that in real life. There are groups of humans who still live in tribal societies, build huts, and hunt with spears.

The difference being that Industralized nations aren’t freaking out because a tribe of spear-wielding hunters is about to destroy the world with their mighty power.

Right. Because an industrialized nation would never freak out and send an army to a country where people live in caves and shepherd goats…oh wait.

That said, in GW2 the more primitive cultures are still a threat because of magic. I mean, look at the centaur and their primitive lifestyle, then look at their leaders with their giant fire tornadoes and 50 foot tall stone hands that come out of the ground. Some factions are a threat in this game because of tech (charr) while others are a world power because of magic (Queen Jenna is super saiyan 4).

Essentially this. Also, keep in mind that the centaurs aren’t attacking the centers of technology. They’re attacking farmers, small villages, and towns on the edge of human territories—places where the new technology hasn’t reached. Although they aren’t a threat to places like Rata Sum, Divinity’s Reach, Lion’s Arch, and the like—where technology does reign supreme—they are still killing many innocent people in rural areas. To the hardworking farmer or common townsfolk, the centaurs are a threat, because technology hasn’t yet moved out of the capitols and major warzones like Orr. Until it does, those people are vulnerable, and the Krytan military will be on its toes trying to help.
The centaur in Lion’s Arch has specifically brought this up. He says that if the charr move into Kryta with their technology, the centaurs will essentially be doomed. And it’s only a matter of time, since the charr and humans have aligned. Once tech becomes widespread, and the top races have time to fully focus on centaurs, well… bye bye centaurs.

At the moment, all the technology is being focused on bigger threats, like the dragons, the Molten Alliance, and the Aetherblades.

When I first played GW1, I found it quite off-putting when I got around to playing Eye of the North and suddenly we were introduced to the Asura, with their advanced technology. I felt like it was ruining the fantasy atmosphere and didn’t fit at all well. After a while I got used to them being around, and expected some technological elements mixed in with the classic fantasy by the time GW2 came around. So I can understand the OP’s sense of dissonance, but it’s not really unique to GW2.

Shiren.9532:

Gibson.4036:

I find villains with ambitions more compelling than the high fantasy typical dark-horde made up of dragon minions.

…

What I don’t see is how this point is relevant to the topic. You can have a fantasy story with compelling villains without turning the game into an episode of Doctor Who. Whether it’s a fantasy or sci-fi setting has no bearing on the character development you have access to.

…

Yes, but the OP specifically mentioned wanting “dragons” and “ancient horrors” as antagonists. The kind of villains that go along with stereotypical “high fantasy”.

I Think this game has a Place for both modern and hi-Tech steampunk as well as “traditional” “magic, dragon/trolls/fairies/folk-lore” kind of mysteries. Just take a look tha the huge part of the map thet i still hidden for us!! Out there can be anything, new tribes of creatures, new civilasations, new races, dragons, animals, beasts, magic,…. I Think ther is room for a lot of variety here and I don’t Think A-net will Always and forever go on the high-tech steampunk line.

This game has just arised from its cradle and there is so much to wait for and see and discover…

Full agreement from me. I really don’t like technology in my fantasy, at least not the kind of supermegafuturistic stuff that the asura and the Aetherblades and now Scarlet have. At least with the charr, it’s mainly restricted to artillery and war machines, not the Answer To Everything. Though the tech in this game doesn’t really deserve the term scifi because there’s no recognizable scientific framework — it seems to me that it’s just a quick fix for whatever the devs think is “cool” at the moment.

I’ve said this repeatedly already, but I too want to see the game go into more of a magical, mystical and even spiritual direction because that’s what I bought it for, not for flailing around at the whim of a shrieking Steampunk teenage brat. If we have asura tech and whatever-tech everywhere, how about a storyline that involves some of the norn spirits, or something from humanity spiritual past, to solve problems and advance the battle against the Elder Dragons and other enemies?

As for “villains with ambitions” … it’s not like Scarlet is actually a good example for that, now is she? Nor does fantasy equal no motivation/blandness while “cool” tech equals motivation and depth. Far from it. Everything that appealed to me about this setting IS fantasy-related, tech doesn’t play into it at all.

I’d really like to see Scarlet and her Aetherblades destroyed with the help of more traditional fantasy elements.

Most people wouldnt have problem with a little bit of technology, having it in the background. But latest content was all about technology and I was just waiting for Neo with Morpheus to show up.

• Mesmers have abilities like Mind Control, Teleportation, etc. That can be thought of as Science Fiction, except for when the word Magic is used to explain it, despite the lack of evidence in any other story that a physical means other than ‘magic’ can be used to do those abilities.
• You can call those Clockwork creatures steampunk, and thus science fiction, but they aren’t steampowered. They are magic powered. Unless there is an actual explanation for how those things operate without the use of magic, they cannot be considered anything other than fantasy creatures.
• Even though the Charr have steam(gas/whatever) powered, Tanks, helicopters, and everyone has airships, etc. in the game, those Airships defy the laws of physics and they are magic powered in some way. And the Char’s Tanks are not science fiction in any way, because they exist in a form in our own modern world. At that point it stops becoming science fiction or fantasy, and becomes fact.
• While the Asura are very advanced in technology and science, all of their technology is imbued with magical energy in some way, and you should consider that their ‘science’ is nothing more than the ‘science of manipulating magic’, automatically disqualifying that from being science fiction. Now, if they didn’t ever use that mysterious force known as magic, and manipulated only things like electricity, then we could get somewhere, but, they don’t.
• Even Science Fiction stories have creatures as fantastical as Dragons, etc. so you cannot say thakittens a Fantasy because of that, however, the dragon’s are magical beings that also consume magic, so you cannot argue on that point either.
• You cannot call Guild Wars a Science Fiction because of gears, just as you cannot call John Carter of Mars a Fantasy, just because there are swords in it. Guild Wars 2 uses Magic as a device to explain how nearly everything work. John Carter uses grounded explanations to explain how everything works (though a 100 years has made much of it outdated).
• Yeah, there is technology, but guess what? while its hard to see, there was technology in the Lord of the Rings as well, espeically alot of Industrial technology, and that story is about as high a High Fantasy as you can get out of any story. Technology in this universe was mainly used by the Enemy, but it was there! And there’s something to consider too!

I have gone through every possible thing I can think of to explain why Guild Wars 2 is 100% a Fantasy world, including one or two that wasn’t yet considered in this thread.

Chrispy.5641:

I have gone through every possible thing I can think of to explain why Guild Wars 2 is 100% a Fantasy world, including one or two that wasn’t yet considered in this thread.

Aside from player characters and hidden lore behind machines, there’s very little magic in GW2. Look at the Living story.

Molten facility – weapon factory with new technology (and a very, very few shaman magic fused into guns)
Southsun – we help to build a holiday resort
Dragon bash – holo-projectors, skypirates with advanced steam-punk technology
BotFW – finally some slight magic use, but as we discovered, it’s actually all about the dragons…
Queen’s jubilee – terminators and skypirates

I’d say GW2 is 5% about magic, 30% about primitive weapons and 65% technology.

Bring on the deathstars…

Meglobob.8620:

Bring on the deathstars…

The prototype is called Glory of Tyria. The laser is already working.

Meglobob.8620:

Bring on the deathstars…

Ever been to the Black Citadell?

Since I first set my paw in there I was wondering when the Charr will finally return to their home planet …

(edit:) Just some small remarks to be at least a little bit on topic:

• Science fiction, steam-punk, cyber-punk, etc., and even Lovecraftian horror or strange settings like Planescape, are just as much fantasy genres as is Tolkien-style fantasy. As a fantasy world, by definition, GW2 cannot step away from fantasy.
• SciFi-like aspects have alway been part of the GW world. In fact, part of me still believes that the conflict of the Mursaat and the Seer is the conflict of two space races stranded on Tyria …
• I am glad that GW has always been kind of original and not bound to established settings. I write “kind of”, since of course all of the used tropes have been seen in one or another form elsewhere in fantasy literature. Truly original fantasy settings are more than rare (or exotic).
• Air-ships and sky pirates are the “cheap trick” of fantasy genres. Yes, they are a cliche, and yes, they have been used a hundred times before, but, heck, I just love them! Here’s still hoping that future guild halls are air ships that can be seen floating in the sky above Tyria.

~MRA

Gandarel.5091:

Meglobob.8620:

Bring on the deathstars…

The prototype is called Glory of Tyria. The laser is already working.

Trah.Pact.Corporation:

One-shooting Elder Dragons!
Just for you!

Gibson.4036:

I find villains with ambitions more compelling than the high fantasy typical dark-horde made up of dragon minions.

lol You can have villians with ambitions in high fantasy… there are many, many books out there with villians that have ambitions.

Also, there is quite a bit of groundwork for a scientific foundation for the technology in the game.

Just because “magic” isn’t explained in detail, doesn’t mean that it can’t be scientific; magic could technically be defined as ESP where you create a change in reality by displacing it with that of the information of another; by calculating and manipulating the super position of matter. A sort of Schrodinger’s cat situation where instead of just remaining an observer on the outside of a closed system, one actual affects the outcome inside that closed system while remaining outside of it.

Magic would then just essentially be the energy used, like gases/etc., to produce a change in something (as in our closed system example aforementioned) to achieve some effect.

Anyways, back to the original topic at hand:

I think it’s fine that they have some steampunk qualities in GW2. I mean magical technology has to advance just like any other tech.

And technically, the argument that “oh 250 years has passed” doesn’t really work all that well lol. The Romans had many advances over other groups in that area during that period of time and then look what happened: they still fell and then the dark ages… =/

It took essentially another several hundred years for that loss to be made up for… There are many examples in history of advances in ideas and technology that have been halted or even reversed due to large scale conflict or disaster; who’s to say that the major advances across Tyria can’t be halted in a similar manner?

If they made the other dragons stories a bit more deep and made them that much more cunning; there is still a fight to be had.

Sollith.3502:

Also, there is quite a bit of groundwork for a scientific foundation for the technology in the game.

Just because “magic” isn’t explained in detail, doesn’t mean that it can’t be scientific;

Quite true, and this is the logical trap that a lot of fantasy falls into. If you have people who understand magic, can control magic and can use it to create repeatable, predictable results, then magic is reduced to being no more than an alternate universe’s physics and is quite literally the science of the given setting.

In Tyria, we clearly have thousands of people running around throwing out predictable, repeatable magical effects, logically reducing “magic” to the same function of turning on a computer or using a smart phone in the real world. These folks are simply using the natural laws of their reality to accomplish tasks in the exact same manner as we do in our world. Harnessing the laws of nature through observation and creating repeatable results IS science, whether you’re creating transistors in California or throwing out your 1,000th identical fireball in Tyria.

Once we understand that in a setting such as Tyria that magic is literally just another name for the science of that universe (observing the laws of nature and utilizing them to produce a repeatable result) then it only stands to reason that intelligent people are going to utilize magic/science to create technology, which is really just the practical application of knowledge. When people can produce repeatable, predictable results through magic/science, they are going to make vehicles to transport goods and people more efficiently, they are going to create ways to make more food, they are going to make labor easier, they are going to make artificial light all over the place, and so on…

What would NOT make sense, and what you see lots of “fantasy” purists argue for, is to have magic be this thing that people in various cultures can use to produce for predictable, repeatable results and yet somehow have no one actually utilize that knowledge to do anything productive to enhance quality of life for society as a whole.

And technically, the argument that “oh 250 years has passed” doesn’t really work all that well lol. The Romans had many advances over other groups in that area during that period of time and then look what happened: they still fell and then the dark ages… =/

Though that doesn’t really apply here since there was no fall or destruction of the the technologically advanced culture in this case. Asura’s popped out 250 years ago with robots and teleportation so, if anything, we should see and even broader spread of tech all over the place.

panzer.6034:

In Tyria, we clearly have thousands of people running around throwing out predictable, repeatable magical effects, logically reducing “magic” to the same function of turning on a computer or using a smart phone in the real world. These folks are simply using the natural laws of their reality to accomplish tasks in the exact same manner as we do in our world. Harnessing the laws of nature through observation and creating repeatable results IS science, whether you’re creating transistors in California or throwing out your 1,000th identical fireball in Tyria.

i see what you are saying, but given that Tyria isn’t real, i see no reason why it should have to abide by the same logical rules that apply in our world. fantasy worlds can, and should have their own rules and logic as long as that logic can be properly explained – that’s what makes a great fantasy world. in this respect, Tyria suffers because it doesn’t seem to have consistent logic and reasoning.