Guild Wars 2

Wanderer.3248:

…… because the TV series was just a soap opera with swords.

If that is your serious opinion of the show, I can’t even fathom what you consider high quality TV…… I fail to recall any TV production that was more impressive in just about every respect.

I don’t disagree that there was “embellishment” of the story for TV just to get some skin and sex on the screen, but none of it was not within the bounds of the story and characters involved.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Wanderer.3248:

…… because the TV series was just a soap opera with swords.

If that is your serious opinion of the show, I can’t even fathom what you consider high quality TV…… I fail to recall any TV production that was more impressive in just about every respect.

I don’t disagree that there was “embellishment” of the story for TV just to get some skin and sex on the screen, but none of it was not within the bounds of the story and characters involved.

stargate SG1/Atlantis are true high quality TV series, GoT is a sidewalk compare to that.
then again, older series are generally better then the crap they make these days.

sorudo.9054:

stargate SG1/Atlantis are true high quality TV series, GoT is a sidewalk compare to that.
then again, older series are generally better then the crap they make these days.

I like SG1 and Atlantis. I really did try my best to catch 90% of it but was hampered by it being hard to do around a night work schedule. I really liked the leads and the chemistry between the main characters, and they handled some worldbuilding really well.

But . . . I’m sorry to say, GoT is better at making character attachments in the audience and invoking an invested reaction. You need look no further than how the Red Wedding or other events got reactions out of the viewers which were emotional, visceral, and not “oh, they’ll be brought back”.

Meanwhile, SG-1/Atlantis didn’t hit that note for me. I rarely felt there was a sense of danger going into situations because they wouldn’t do that to the show.

It’s similar to how when you stop and think about it you know Riker isn’t going to take that promotion and leave the Enterprise, or Data will wind up being handed off to be dismantled for study and replication, and you know Voyager will always, always get stuck for another week out in the space-sticks when there seems to be a way home. (Doubly true for Season One.)

I have a show in one hand where you’re never quite sure whether a character is safe simply because “rule of TV casting” says they aren’t going . . . and in the other, one where it has to strive to make me suspend disbelief there’s a real danger to the main characters.

That’s not the sole useful measurement stick I use, mind you. I found other “good TV” where it was known there was a status-quo which would eventually return down the line. On the other hand, two of those shows I like to watch shake it up and shift the balance quite often (Grimm and Person of Interest) so it’s always an actual treat to see how things change while they do remain mostly the same from week to week.

Bottom line? Great writing, no matter the medium, does have to make me:

- Suspend my disbelief. “You will believe a man can fly!” . . . and not have it be blatantly obvious wirework or CGI. I know it has to be one or the other (usually – see the Inception hallway fight for an exception). But don’t show me the wires or harnesses.

- Get me to care about the characters. Tough to do, but if you can get me to care about the characters we’re partway to the first one from above. Note, I don’t have to like all the characters, I just need to care about their fates.

- Have your plot make some kind of sense to where I don’t feel I’m expected to spend too much time guessing about things. If at the end of an episode, I don’t know anything more about the characters’ overall arcs or what I just saw? I’m not going to care about the show. (See: Season 3 of Lost.)

sorudo.9054:

stargate SG1/Atlantis are true high quality TV series, GoT is a sidewalk compare to that.
then again, older series are generally better then the crap they make these days.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

sorudo.9054:

stargate SG1/Atlantis are true high quality TV series, GoT is a sidewalk compare to that.
then again, older series are generally better then the crap they make these days.

I like SG1 and Atlantis. I really did try my best to catch 90% of it but was hampered by it being hard to do around a night work schedule. I really liked the leads and the chemistry between the main characters, and they handled some worldbuilding really well.

But . . . I’m sorry to say, GoT is better at making character attachments in the audience and invoking an invested reaction. You need look no further than how the Red Wedding or other events got reactions out of the viewers which were emotional, visceral, and not “oh, they’ll be brought back”.

Meanwhile, SG-1/Atlantis didn’t hit that note for me. I rarely felt there was a sense of danger going into situations because they wouldn’t do that to the show.

It’s similar to how when you stop and think about it you know Riker isn’t going to take that promotion and leave the Enterprise, or Data will wind up being handed off to be dismantled for study and replication, and you know Voyager will always, always get stuck for another week out in the space-sticks when there seems to be a way home. (Doubly true for Season One.)

I have a show in one hand where you’re never quite sure whether a character is safe simply because “rule of TV casting” says they aren’t going . . . and in the other, one where it has to strive to make me suspend disbelief there’s a real danger to the main characters.

That’s not the sole useful measurement stick I use, mind you. I found other “good TV” where it was known there was a status-quo which would eventually return down the line. On the other hand, two of those shows I like to watch shake it up and shift the balance quite often (Grimm and Person of Interest) so it’s always an actual treat to see how things change while they do remain mostly the same from week to week.

Bottom line? Great writing, no matter the medium, does have to make me:

- Suspend my disbelief. “You will believe a man can fly!” . . . and not have it be blatantly obvious wirework or CGI. I know it has to be one or the other (usually – see the Inception hallway fight for an exception). But don’t show me the wires or harnesses.

- Get me to care about the characters. Tough to do, but if you can get me to care about the characters we’re partway to the first one from above. Note, I don’t have to like all the characters, I just need to care about their fates.

- Have your plot make some kind of sense to where I don’t feel I’m expected to spend too much time guessing about things. If at the end of an episode, I don’t know anything more about the characters’ overall arcs or what I just saw? I’m not going to care about the show. (See: Season 3 of Lost.)

most watch GoT for the sex and kills, every time someone tries to pull me to GoT it’s ether because you see naked ppl or because there is some gore in it, not even close about what the store is about.
SG1 has a good story line, plenty of variation and just overall awesomeness without the need of nakedness or blood everywhere.
and yes, i have “tried” to watch it with an open mind, it just didn’t even try to pull me in.
just some sex scenes, shouting at each other, gossiping everywhere but a good script is nowhere to be found….

I watch Game of Thrones because I like characters that shift between good and evil. I like characters that are gray. This is why characters such as Logan Thackeray bore me to no end; they are unable to make any mistakes, because the writers do not want them to. We’re told that Logan once made a mistake in the past, and now he’s redeeming himself. Whoopteedoo, how about an actual mistake now? How about we see him do something that contradicts his usual character? Let a character that is normally noble, do something not so noble. And let a character that is usually the villain, show a more human side of his personality.

Characters in Game of Thrones constantly make mistakes, and we as an audience can see what these bad decisions result in. It’s like a long row of domino stones, where one mistake results in more mistakes, which eventually results in catastrophic events.

I also like being surprised. How boring would the story be, if you can always predict who will come out on top, and how something resolves itself? George RR Martin avoids easy solutions. When ever an easy solution presents itself, he cuts it down, in favor of something far more interesting. I bet a lot of GoT viewers thought they knew how episode 8 of season 4 was going to play out, and that’s right when a shocking twist is right around the corner.

I keep going back to this example, but that one personal story mission where you and Logan set a trap for the White Mantle is such a polar opposite to this philosophy. Logan agrees to meet the White Mantle out in the open, while the player and several soldiers wait in hiding. And then they spring the trap on the Mantle, who don’t suspect a thing, and it totally works. HOW BORING! Who wrote this?! Was it really hard to think up a twist? Here’s a few alternate ways how this quest could have played out:

-The Mantle spring a trap of their own, the player and soldiers are captured.
-Logan betrays the player, in an attempt to gain the confidence of the Mantle. His betrayal later turns out to be part of the plan all along.
-Logan messes up, the Mantle see through his act, and everyone is captured.
-Someone else springs a trap on both Logan and the Mantle.
-Logan is killed on the spot, and the player finds himself outnumbered by the Mantle. Fleeing is the only option.
-Logan turns out to be a mesmer in disguise, delivering the player to the Mantle.
-A mursaat shows up and this demands a radical change of plans. Logan is nearly killed.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I watch Game of Thrones because I like characters that shift between good and evil. I like characters that are gray. This is why characters such as Logan Thackeray bore me to no end; they are unable to make any mistakes, because the writers do not want them to. We’re told that Logan once made a mistake in the past, and now he’s redeeming himself. Whoopteedoo, how about an actual mistake now? How about we see him do something that contradicts his usual character? Let a character that is normally noble, do something not so noble. And let a character that is usually the villain, show a more human side of his personality.

Characters in Game of Thrones constantly make mistakes, and we as an audience can see what these bad decisions result in. It’s like a long row of domino stones, where one mistake results in more mistakes, which eventually results in catastrophic events.

I also like being surprised. How boring would the story be, if you can always predict who will come out on top, and how something resolves itself? George RR Martin avoids easy solutions. When ever an easy solution presents itself, he cuts it down, in favor of something far more interesting. I bet a lot of GoT viewers thought they knew how episode 8 of season 4 was going to play out, and that’s right when a shocking twist is right around the corner.

I keep going back to this example, but that one personal story mission where you and Logan set a trap for the White Mantle is such a polar opposite to this philosophy. Logan agrees to meet the White Mantle out in the open, while the player and several soldiers wait in hiding. And then they spring the trap on the Mantle, who don’t suspect a thing, and it totally works. HOW BORING! Who wrote this?! Was it really hard to think up a twist? Here’s a few alternate ways how this quest could have played out:

-The Mantle spring a trap of their own, the player and soldiers are captured.
-Logan betrays the player, in an attempt to gain the confidence of the Mantle. His betrayal later turns out to be part of the plan all along.
-Logan messes up, the Mantle see through his act, and everyone is captured.
-Someone else springs a trap on both Logan and the Mantle.
-Logan is killed on the spot, and the player finds himself outnumbered by the Mantle. Fleeing is the only option.
-Logan turns out to be a mesmer in disguise, delivering the player to the Mantle.
-A mursaat shows up and this demands a radical change of plans. Logan is nearly killed.

As usual MQM voices my thoughts, I will soon be in a position, where I won’t have to bother logging in to reply if this trend continues.

sorudo.9054:

most watch GoT for the sex and kills, every time someone tries to pull me to GoT it’s ether because you see naked ppl or because there is some gore in it, not even close about what the store is about.

I’d go into this but, really, it’s the same as trying to talk to people who want to tell me “Babylon 5” is a knock off of “Deep Space 9”. (I’ll need to see more B5 to be sure, but I can almost safely say they’re different shows; one with a better arc concept, one with some darn fine acting trying to break through stifling season one scripts.)

Though I will say, I have five people who sit together in my house and watch the television when Game of Thrones is on. Only one of them is less interested in the show and more in the blood/bewbs and he shows up because he gets free beer out of it anyway. (His spot is taken up by someone I actually try to synch watching up with in California so I am watching the episode when he does and have him on IM chat. He does not watch for the blood and gore.)

Your experience may vary, but despite the outright unpleasantness of the Red Wedding, the reactions it evokes suggest it’s not just the gore which did that. It’s people having cared about the characters and gotten attached. It’d be akin to ANet having the stones to kill off Marjory instead of “just knocked out and Rox got her back to consciousness”.

SG1 has a good story line, plenty of variation and just overall awesomeness without the need of nakedness or blood everywhere.

You seem stuck on “naked and blood” when SG-1 had its own form okittenward plots going through it. (Shall we count how often that black-ops organization showed up just to prevent things from going smoothly? I forget the name of it, it’s been way too long.) The biggest charm of SG-1 was the self-awareness oozing through the script.

and yes, i have “tried” to watch it with an open mind, it just didn’t even try to pull me in.
just some sex scenes, shouting at each other, gossiping everywhere but a good script is nowhere to be found….

Really? Nowhere? Most of Peter Dinklage’s scenes in Season Two come to mind. So does Maise Williams’ scenes later on, notably the one opposite Charles Dance. (Not in the books, so they can’t take credit for that one.)

If it sounds like I’m hard-pressed to find a “good script moment” it’s not because they’re lacking. It’s because I’ve read the first three books, and I’ve made sure to watch the episodes at least twice each. (Well . . . except one.) I rather like the world and the efforts to make it feel real rather than just a fantasy epic.

Giving credit where it’s due, SG-1 had that feeling as well. Atlantis was harder for me to get into, probably because I was more attached to the “other side”.

But in all seriousness, it’s rather hard to compare the two franchises – Stargate was lighter-hearted and it did not take it self too seriously. Game of Thrones does neither of those things. One is a semi-realistic modern take on the “classic science fiction formula”, and owes a lot to an almost-forgettable summer blockbuster leaving some holes a couple writers could exploit. The other is a fantasy epic (not a quality judgement, in the literary term) which draws a lot of inspiration from history and other fantasy writers’ works, and is adapted for TV.

. . . not to mention there are only 40 episodes of Game of Thrones and more than five times as many episodes of Stargate SG-1. The best episodes of SG-1 (in my opinion, “Window of Opportunity”) also have two clunker fillers to go with them. Game of Thrones doesn’t have filler, due to having a tighter “time budget” on how much they work with in a season.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I watch Game of Thrones because I like characters that shift between good and evil. I like characters that are gray. This is why characters such as Logan Thackeray bore me to no end; they are unable to make any mistakes, because the writers do not want them to. We’re told that Logan once made a mistake in the past, and now he’s redeeming himself. Whoopteedoo, how about an actual mistake now? How about we see him do something that contradicts his usual character? Let a character that is normally noble, do something not so noble. And let a character that is usually the villain, show a more human side of his personality.

We’re watching the same Logan, right, because I’ve apparently been seeing him make mistakes a lot. Notably connected to the emotional troubles he has with Rytlock. He’s also made incredible mistakes concerning trying to protect Queen Jennah with a blunt personality instead of a deft hand when politics comes into play. (See: Minister Caudecus)

I don’t need him to do something not-noble to make him less perfect for me. What I need is a reason to actually root for him other than his ancestor being one of my favorite character development pieces ANet has done.

I want him to stand up and realize his job of protecting the Queen doesn’t mean it has to be him, personally, who is the reason she is safe. I want him to grow up enough to not snap at Countess Anise for doing her job, because he thinks it makes him look bad. (No, Logan, stomping on people who are supposed to be your allies makes you look bad.)

But you know what I want more? I want them to flesh out the ‘new generation’ of B-Iconics so we can get more out of some of them. Luckily, I am expecting that to come through.

(I also want to hear the casting of Peter Dinklage as Miles Vorkosigan, but one miracle at a time.)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

We’re watching the same Logan, right, because I’ve apparently been seeing him make mistakes a lot. Notably connected to the emotional troubles he has with Rytlock.

That’s just a bit of arguing back and forth, and not him actually making strategic mistakes.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

He’s also made incredible mistakes concerning trying to protect Queen Jennah with a blunt personality instead of a deft hand when politics comes into play. (See: Minister Caudecus)

None of which have really caused disastrous changes to the plot. The only mistake we know of, is the one that got Snaff killed, but that happened in the books. Logan really wasn’t punished at all for executing an illegal raid on the minister’s mansion, which you’d think could have interesting consequences. But nothing is done with that.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I don’t need him to do something not-noble to make him less perfect for me. What I need is a reason to actually root for him other than his ancestor being one of my favorite character development pieces ANet has done.

I agree entirely. There’s nothing at all likeable about Logan. He doesn’t really have a sense of humor, or any edge to him, nor any distinct personality at all. I could not describe Logan’s personality without referring to his class and his job.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I want him to stand up and realize his job of protecting the Queen doesn’t mean it has to be him, personally, who is the reason she is safe. I want him to grow up enough to not snap at Countess Anise for doing her job, because he thinks it makes him look bad. (No, Logan, stomping on people who are supposed to be your allies makes you look bad.)

I want Queen Jennah to fire him, for being too emotionally involved to properly do his job. And then I want him to feel betrayed.