Guild Wars 2

I was thinking today, ANet has said that these living world updates (by the way, I love how they dropped the term “story” from “living story” since they all seem to be void of any story…) are basically supposed to replace what an expansion would give. That’s great, but how are they supposed to add in new races?

As far as they’ve told us, their entire team is broken into four separate teams, each only getting a four month period to add a months worth of content to the game. They have said that they would add new races to the game, but the more I thought about it today, how could they? I mean, is four months enough to create the capital city of that race? To create that race’s own personal story? Animations and all of that? Doesn’t seem possible to do all of that within four months, but maybe I am wrong.

I am really starting to fear that we won’t really be getting any worthwhile content like new races or dragons until this game starts losing players and in turn losing money from sales from the gem store, at which point ANet will be all, “Oh, hey guys look! We have an expansion! Please come back to the game!” Cause currently, what incentive do they have to create any meaningful content when people are eating up the crap they are serving currently?

In addition to the 4 living story teams, there are teams working on larger projects whose work will be released alongside the living world updates. I’m given to understand that some of these teams are working on content (i.e. not just systems like an lfg tool or on WvW)

Why do we need new races? The GW2 story is about the 5 most dominant races in Tyria as of 1325 AE. I don’t see why we need to have more races involved, especially now that (since the LS seems to take place after the PS) they would have to retcon all sorts of things to make the races fit in to the story, hire dozens and dozens of voice actors, and probably completely revamp many of the existing zones to accomodate the new race.

Anet has said that creating new races is a very, very low priority for them since they’ve balanced gameplay around the interactions between the currently playable 5 races. New character classes are at the very bottom of the list. I hope we never see either, just additions to what already exists. People seem to want “more” for the sake of having more, without considering whether it meaningfully adds to the scope of the game. They only seem to care about novelty and disregard how difficult it would be to add such content and still make everything work well.

Consider the tengu, which many consider to be the most likely race to be added (if any ever do get added). Sure, they have their capital, but how do you make them part of the world? They’ve been isolationists for a long time; anyone who sees them out and about fighting dragons and their minions will be very, very surprised, assuming they even know what a tengu is. And how will Anet be able to make them a believable part of the world without adding tons of new NPCs with new lines, and new dynamic events, throughout existing zones? What would be the starter area for the tengu—Caledon? You couldn’t balance that area between sylvari and tengu interests without disrupting the existing zone quite a lot, since it was created with only the sylvari in mind. The largos are even more of a problem. Despite their popularity, they simply can’t be worked into the story in a logical way, since they’d have to START near late-game areas, and they’re awesome because they’re so mysterious; why would it make sense to start out as a level 1 largo when the ones we’ve seen are all supremely skilled killers? In addition, I think that for story reasons they can’t be playable. I see them as the GW2 version of the White Mantle in GW1: they’re cool at first, until you discover their true motives and methods.

In short, I don’t think they plan on adding new races, because we don’t need new races and it wouldn’t make sense to do so.

Blahblah, besides all that, because it would be fun & I hope they do add more races + race change.

I mean they did bring SAB into GW2, if we learned anything from MMO’s lore is for books.

Wetpaw.3487:

Blahblah, besides all that, because it would be fun & I hope they do add more races + race change.

I mean they did bring SAB into GW2, if we learned anything from MMO’s lore is for books.

SAB is a game within a game though, and it fits the asuran culture. “It would be fun” isn’t sufficient justification for doing something so drastic as adding a new playable race. As for race change, that also seems impossible, as you’d have to redo your personal story from the start, which really isn’t an option for a higher-level character.

I understand people want certain changes, but you have to go beyond wanting something and also consider its possible ramifications on the community, the game engine and systems, and the lore and culture of the game.

Skritt live with asura, yes?

wookiee.4631:

Don’t they have other teams working in the background on bigger stuff? I don’t see why they wouldn’t add new races. It wouldn’t be too tough to make an LS about the Dominion of Winds and several nearby islands being opened and the Tengu being playable. Or one about the Koda that adds them as playable. As for the question of them making sense to the PS fighting Zhaitan, well, why can’t newer races have a different Personal Story? Yeah, it’d be a lot of work, but it’d be interesting. Adding a new race is nothing new, I don’t see why it’s so unbelievable for it to happen in GW 2. Now, I don’t think it’s probable for the rest of this year or next year, but you never know.

Still has to work with the Destiny’s Edge meta-story and the dungeon stories, which wouldn’t work if the new races weren’t tied in with the original five—which would require massive retcons. Also, as I said, new races and classes are near the very bottom of Anet’s priority list, according to everything I’ve read from them. Again, you have to have a more compelling reason than “because I can” or “it would be fun.” It’s like the class discussions: I’ve yet to see anyone make a compelling case for adding a new class that isn’t similar to existing ones and has entirely new concepts that haven’t already been covered in some way or another and aren’t better suited to new skills and weapons for existing professions. The only defenses are “why not,” “I want it” or “it would be interesting/fun,” and you really need a lot more solid of a foundation before you can even think of successfully implementing something as significant as a new class, let alone a new race.

Why do you guys insist that it would have to fit within the current races personal stories? Its already been said that the current living story is based around just the current races, so any extras would never fit in. But why can’t the new race’s personal story run parallel to the current? It could even follow the same format, first few parts linked to character creation while under the guidance of a mentor (who says that it has to be a member of destiny’s edge?). Then the character joins a order (Again theres nothing that says otherwise) to fight a new threat to the specific race. The biggest problem would be the world design and layout. but that could be slowly introduced through the living story.

Edit: Dungeons are another problem but that would be the only part that would be a problem story wise. I should also explain why I would like a new race. The reason is that i found the most interesting part the story is found at the characters origin, the rest ends up feeling the same regardless of the character itself. After you’ve done the story with one character, doing it with alts feels pointless. Adding another race could allow the game to have different storylines, so the character is actually facing a problem that is personal to them.

Equinox.4968:

“It would be fun” isn’t sufficient justification for doing something so drastic as adding a new playable race.

What other reasons are there?

Talking about “why do we need” always makes me chuckle. It’s a game. You don’t “need” anything. A game is all about what makes it fun and what enhances it.

Well from what I can see Tengus will definitely be added. Here’s a map with some zones that are closed as of now but should become available in the future (why else would he have gates to them?) There is a better map floating around somewhere but I couldn’t find it again. http://www.anjelsyndicate.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/d4ApT.jpg

So if I’m not mistaken that looks a lot like the capital city and starting zone for tengus are laid out already. There’s also no problem with their non-involvement in the dungeon stories because a) they are about a specific guild (destiny’s edge) and b) at the time they play out tengus still debated wether to join the 5 major races. I see absolutely no problem. They can slowly make their way out of their isolation.

During development they had said that would would not be adding new races due to the need to create new starting areas, storylines, and progression zones. They felt that the amount of work seriously impeded their ability to move the game forward. They may change their collective minds about that, but I seriously doubt it.

If, however, they do create new races, it probably won’t be the Tengu, Skritt, nor any such thing. Charr characters only make up 13% of the characters being played, with Asurans only being slightly ahead (due to their inherent advantage in SPvP). In their PAX Q&A, they were asked about armour fixes for the Charr, and they pretty much said it is low on their list of things to do because most of the plaers are human or norn.

Anet is basically going to look after the needs of their majority player base – that’s just good business sense. The majority player base is decidedly human.

edit: This would seem to me to be the wrong sub-forum for this post. Is the Living World sub-forum the new dumping ground for general topics?

you’re welcome
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/07/16/guild-wars-2-developer-livestream-chat-discusses-the-fine-art-of/

Why do the new race additions have to have a personal story? Why not just put a disclaimer on the new races during character creation that says something like, “This race is suggested for those players who have already gone through a personal story line or multiple storylines. This race has no personal story line as it is intended to be played by those who have multiple characters already. You will pick a single voice of any one of the 5 existing races voices and that will be used in dungeons and cutscenes etc.”

I would rather we get to see new races than have to have a bunch of voice work added. My Tengu doesn’t have to have a unique voice. In fact, I have 7 max level characters and have yet to complete a single personal story to completion. I couldn’t stand Trahearne or the story. Playing as a new race though? I totally want that!

webtoehobbit.4201:

How exactly do they plan on adding new races?

The same way they plan to release new regions, new personal story, player housing, and guild vs guild…i.e. they don’t. Not really (I hope). But from the looks of things, all of those items (new race included) probably fall under their “not a priority” umbrella. ’Cause, you know, Living Story…

I can totally see them adding in new races (Tengu for example) There are plenty of ways to integrate them into the existing storyline. Also remember, there are things about Destiny’s Edge that are not very well known and quickly overlooked. For all we know Destiny’s Edge could have had 8 members and taken a vow of silence due to something that happened to the 8th member that we never got to see.

The way it is I would bet 80% of players don’t know that Foalin was in Destiny’s Edge. The group wasn’t just made up of Zojja, Logan, Rytlock, Eir, Caithe, and Snaff. Those are just the members we talk about. They were a guild, and those particular characters are prominent because they directly relate to our stories as growing characters. What do you want to bet that there were at least 2 of each race in Destiny’s Edge? I mean Asura had Zojja and Snaff. Sylvari had Caithe and Foalin. We certainly don’t know all the members that were in Destiny’s Edge. We only know the story surrounding that particular fight with the dragon that got Snaff killed.

Everyone seems to be forgetting that the game itself is supposed to evolve. Right now we only see the small term of the living story. It’s only been a year, and they’ve spent it trying to figure out a good method for their releases.

I would expect in the future to see things subtly change anyway. I mean we have spent the last year fighting the undead and killing Zhaitan in our personal stories. Trahearne is supposed to be working on cleansing Orr. Eventually we should see a decrease in undead as we manage to drive them back. As that were to happen, the Personal Story would then change and grow. It’s not going to be stuck at “You Killed Zhaitan” forever because our stories haven’t ended! But change takes time. Eventually however I expect to see Zhaitan actually defeated in a world class epic event, and a new Elder Dragon start to take prominence and creep into power. Changes like that, and those ebbs and flows are PERFECT places to add in new content like races and professions which as you saw in the link above, are in the idea box for the staff of ANet.

Before they can do any of that though they need to have a stable game with a nice active world to put those changes in, and I would wager, that that’s why they spent the last year trying out all these event types and changes.

I mean can you imagine if they had done major World Changes like I’m talking without having found out all the things they’ve learned from their prior releases?! It would be a nightmare.

It’s a game guys. You play it to have fun. So why not go out and enjoy it, BEFORE it changes. If you don’t, then when you decide they are doing things how you like, you’re going to come back, and have all this content you missed. Then we will be stuck listening to you gripe in forums about how you missed all this stuff!

Any new races don’t necessarily need to be tied into Destiny’s Edge. For example, for Tengu, their 1 – 20 storyline could take place entirely within the Dominion of Winds depending on choices they made during character creation, and once they hit 30, their mentor (a leader of one of the Four Houses of the Winds), tells them that a fabled adventuring group named Destiny’s Edge is gathering in Lion’s Arch, and that they should go meet them to see if they could be recruited to help the Tengu in their struggles against Primordus (since the Destroyers seem to be the ones giving them the most trouble). When that doesn’t pan out, Tengu characters then turn to one of the three Orders.

From there, Tengu characters can follow the exact same storyline. In the Story Mode dungeons, the DE heroes barely even react to you like you’re their friend/protege anyway.

Zaxares.5419:

Any new races don’t necessarily need to be tied into Destiny’s Edge. For example, for Tengu, their 1 – 20 storyline could take place entirely within the Dominion of Winds depending on choices they made during character creation, and once they hit 30, their mentor (a leader of one of the Four Houses of the Winds), tells them that a fabled adventuring group named Destiny’s Edge is gathering in Lion’s Arch, and that they should go meet them to see if they could be recruited to help the Tengu in their struggles against Primordus (since the Destroyers seem to be the ones giving them the most trouble). When that doesn’t pan out, Tengu characters then turn to one of the three Orders.

From there, Tengu characters can follow the exact same storyline. In the Story Mode dungeons, the DE heroes barely even react to you like you’re their friend/protege anyway.

^ This. I was using the Destiny’s Edge stuff because of what some guy said above me concerning no way to tie in. To show that yes, they can tie in just fine. However, as you showed, it’s not necessary! You don’t even have to be one of the races of the Destiny’s Edge reps to want to help get a group together so that you can defeat the dragons. I mean defeating them is in everyone’s best interest right?

Though to be entirely fair…I would expect the Tengu story to be something along the lines of : Locking themselves away was the only way to keep the undead away, so it was demanded of their Kingdom to isolate themselves. Then the undead started creeping in, they see they need help, they open their doors, ally with the rest of Tyria and Zhaitan is defeated by world unity. Thus the beginning of the Tengu as a playable race. But that’s just how I see it. This would also give them an amazing personal story line, where they join up with the Pact the defeat the Elder Dragon.

Also if the world evolves in a major way, it’s not as if old story lines cant be phased out. For us players who were here for us, it’s a part of our history, but it wouldn’t be for someone who joined after the World defeat of Zhaitan, so there is no reason they would have to have that story at all, regardless of race. It wouldn’t make sense if they did. Those of us who do have it, have that legacy, and in the end, that is what GW2 is about. Your story growing as you play. Someone joining now SHOULDN’T have the exact same experience as someone starting a year ago, because those of us who DID start a year ago, have changed the world.

P.S. I do think it would be really cool if some aspiring Asura mind (not Statics plz! Sorry my main is Asuran and I am biased) could come up with an awesome machine that allows you to experience the past. This would be a great way to allow new players access to old content, and we do have some similar things in game already, like when the pale tree takes you through Orr showing you the future.

Whatever they do, they’d better not half-kitten it. I’d rather them not add a new race at all then add one without its own city (complete with voiced NPC banter), starting zone, personal story, etc.

I see mainly four possible options when it comes to race additions.

- Account unlock purchasable with gems. Think of it as a mini-expansion that just adds the race’s content: city, personal story, racial skills, cultural gear, flavor NPCs sprinkled over the world and the other typical stuff related to a race.
- Actual expansion that also adds ‘missing’ areas such as the level 25-40 maguuma maps, another set of dragon campaign maps that leads to another dragon dungeon and, of course, also the race’s content.
- Just free for all. Once in the game, readily available for anyone with an empty character slot.
For these three, there would also be a living story update introducing the permanent content.

The fourth, though, is the one I unfortunately see more likely:
- No new actual content. Just more temporary stuff that is gone with the wind in a few days and maybe some skins only actually available to a few via RNG, extenuating grind limited in time or high-difficulty time-gated content. No new races, no new maps, no new dungeons, no new juicy stuff.

As for tying it with lore, a good way would be to make the next playable race the tengu, and make destroyers take over the Dominion, forcing them to leave the dominion to some place where a better set of maps can be fit, instead making them have their 1-15 map small level 1-15 map right next to another 2 1-15 maps, and their city right next to Lion’s Arch.

It’s also possible that ANet may simply decide to have a “cut-off” point and say that new races like the Tengu have a completely new Personal Story that doesn’t link to the 5 original races at all. For example (and this is all just speculation), say that the Tengu become playable with a Canthan expansion. Their Personal Story mainly revolves around them returning to Cantha to deal with the Empire after it’s revealed that the Emperor has fallen under the sway of one of the Elder Dragons and is marshalling his armies for a massive invasion of Tyria.

Older characters can come and join in this Personal Story, but the Tengu can’t go back and do the Personal Story from vanilla GW2, because their introduction is considered to have occurred canonically after the defeat of Zhaitan. (Of course, there’s nothing stopping Tengu characters from exploring the open world or doing doing dungeons.)

forget adding new races, just offer a tengu idol that can be turned on and off at will. Same class, maybe some special attack features, but you don’t have to start over and it will please the people who are bored.

This could work across the board for alot of things. Now we have plenty of illusions, i am still working through all my elemental potions from dragon bash, but we can’t fight in those forms, and while the watcher forms are cool and can fight, they are limited in time (i think i heard 5min with 30CD)…. so permanent style idols.

They could introduce all kinds of various idols that could transform your PC, and even make them account bound so you could start a new char over and play it up… albeit as that race.

A new race could be fairly quickly added, but i think that we would rather have more southsun difficulty content with a better solid story line, at this point, than something as arbitrary as a new playable race compete with a new city and new newbie zones…

Adding in a new race, Tengu for example, to the personal story as it stands wouldn’t really be that hard. Destiny’s Edge honestly doesn’t play that big of a role in the personal story until the last act, and none of the dungeon stories actually acknowledge the player’s race. All it would take is for there to be a Tengu mentor character who would serve the same role as the other race’s DE mentors. This mentor would have some interest in reuniting Destiny’s Edge, all it would take is for the Tengu variations on a few personal stories to include this new mentor. Quite literally everything else in the personal story could be left as is.