Guild Wars 2

We all know that life on Tyria (i.e., our existence itself) is based on its magic, weaving a construct that the Asura refer to as the Eternal Alchemy. We all agree that the Elder Dragons are part of this construct somehow. We assume that the Gods are, too.

Seeing as the story has been developing lately, I have come to the conclusion that the Elder Dragons are directly connected to the Pantheon of Gods.

Hypothesis: My assumption is that
a) they either are embodying the essence of magic the Gods implemented in our world as a portal to their realm, which then transformed into those beings (the Elder Dragons), or
b) they are the counterparts of the Gods, or their anchor, which they need in order to exist in our realm (scroll further down for side note on this).

The vanishing of the Gods might also somehow be connected to the sleep/awakening state of the Dragons.
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Now, take a look at the attachment. I was just playing through the LWS2 story mission “The Machine” again, in which we enter Omadd’s Machine and get exposed to the “Eternal Alchemy” as Scarlet did. At the end we see one of the orbs colliding with the center of the construct. Keep in mind that this is pre-HoT, i.e. we have not fought Mordremoth yet.

To me, it has become obvious without a doubt that those orbs we see in the sequence are without a doubt representing the Elder Dragons, of which we have defeated (as in killed) Zhaitan, hence its orb colliding, and fought Mordremoth — but did we really “kill” the latter or just put him back to sleep, as we just defeated “something” that looked like a dragon, when we know that the whole jungle was actually Mordremoth?

Okay, on with my theory. If the Elder Dragons are what I wrote earlier, then those orbs in said construct must also represent the Gods.

Side Note: Of course one has to ask, “Why are the Elder Dragons all kind of evil, when certainly not all of the Gods can be looked upon that way?” Well, maybe something corrupted them early on, or maybe when the Gods entered our realm of existence, that was the moment the Elder Dragons came to life, as a means for the Gods to “dispose” part of their power/magic as their powers were too strong (and therefore dangerous and destructive to us) to exist in our world in one single form (deities in Arah)?

Now, as you can see in my attachment, I am uncertain we “destroyed” Melandru (Mordremoth). But we certainly ****ed off Menzies. Yes, I assume that the seventh orb, the one colliding in the video, must be Menzies. not Grenth. There is a saying: “Grenth’s icy embrace.” Therefore I presume Jormag to represent Grenth — that left me to wonder who else could be associated with a dragon like Mordremoth, and all I could think of was Menzies (a thought strongly nurtured by the latest Gem Store addition, Menzies’ greatsword).

So… maybe Balthazar came back into our realm of existence to acquire all of Primordus’ magic simply because Primordus is a part of him (see previous hypothesis) and he didn’t want to lose part of his power (the one that binds him to our realm of existence) when we were going to kill Primordus? Obviously the Gods have been aware of our dragon-slaying, and so Balthazar decided to save that part of his magic that he had left in our world in the form of “his” dragon?

Also, as you can see in my graphics, I put Kormir at the center. She represents balance (like the Pale Tree does in our realm of existence, representing Tyria itself). This said, as we probably need to “mend” the damage we have caused, returning to Elona (Komir’s place of origin) in the upcoming expansion makes even more sense. Perhaps we are going to look for a way to “get in touch” with her.

Thoughts?

While it is an interesting though, I think you assume far too much. Just because the elder dragons exist on tyria (and are characterized as natural movements/disasters of the world), doesn’t mean the human gods are tied to tyria in the same way. They existed prior to entering Tyria when they set foot in Orr for the first time. They could have originated elsewhere or were created from the Mist itself eons ago.

A. the dragons could have slept since the creation of Tyria and only awoke because of the influence of magic being brought into the world but this boils down to little more than, plants grow in the desert because water was added to the enviroment.

B. I don’t believe an elder dragon dying would have an influence on the Gods themselves even if its bad for the balance of the world. If any Elder dragon had influence to Grenth it would be Zhaitan not Jormag. And going by your theory, with Zhaitans death we’d have chaos in the Underworld and have more leaking of spirits into the world. This obviously hasn’t happened. Further, Mordremoth is dead. We destroyed his mind in the story and body in the meta event.

I don’t know why you include Menzies in this at all considering he is not a god like the others. Nor has there been any mention of him having any powers (or appearance for that matter) even in GW1. Again with the gem store mention, you are reaching too much. Just like there are theories all over the net now about how the expansion will lead us to the Desolation and potentially Balthazars realm to fight the Shadow Army.

Balthazar going after Primordus for power could have been either of 2 coincidences. Either it’s because they both embody fire and thus easier to assimilate, or he was simply closer and it would have been less of a hassle than going for Jormag.

Thus far based on unconfirmed leaks, it says we’re going to the Crystal Desert, not Elona. While I wouldn’t be surprised to see Lyssa in the next expansion depending on how Balthazar acquired the mirror, Kormir is a bit of a stretch if it doesn’t involve her realm directly.

I’m not going to say you are completely wrong. Some of your points have merit, but we disagree on how intertwined and invested the Gods are to Tyria. In the last part of Flashpoint Balthazar clearly didn’t give a kitten about the fate of Tyria when he was channeling Primordus’ power. I believe the Gods have many realms beyond our small one to consider.

DRINK!

The theory that the dragons and gods line up has been proposed so often that Arenanet put an item in the game saying there was no evidence behind it. Sure, you can line some of them up – Balthazar with Primordus, Melandru with Mordremoth, Grenth with Jormag or Zhaitan – but after that you start getting mismatches however twisted your logic gets.

My viewpoint is that the All represents how magic is structured in Tyria. The spectrum is broken up into six domains, each dominated by an Elder Dragon (at least, until we started killing them off). The gods, however, are not native to Tyria, and their magic is structured differently. It may or may not be the same if you just consider magic in its undifferentiated ‘white’ state, but it’s certainly structured differently.

Certainly, the dragons were present on Tyria before the gods arrived, so the dragons were certainly not created by the gods as a means of depositing excess power or the like.

In the case of Balthazar targeting Primordus – it does seem quite likely that he did so because Primordus’ power is closer in nature to his own, and thus might be easier for him to assimilate. However, as Khailyn said, it might well have simply been a matter of access – Primordus was close by and, having recently moved, doesn’t seem to have established the degree of control over the area as the other Elder Dragons have in their surroundings (consider how heavily fortified Zhaitan had made Orr, or even Mordremoth and the Dragon’s Stand region only a couple of years after he awakened). Jormag is both a long way away and very well established in his territory – Balthazar’s camp in Draconis Mons is fairly undisturbed by Destroyers, but trying to establish a camp that close to Jormag would probably involve being constantly besieged by Icebrood (think of Orr and how often the camps there are attacked).

It’s also possible that it’s simply coincidence. According to Taimi, the device could be activated anywhere – it doesn’t have to be close to either dragon. Balthazar took it into a volcano because it was somewhere he didn’t think anybody could follow him, and it just so happened that Primordus was there. Or it’s possible that Primordus came to investigate the tasty magic concentration that had arrived in his domain, and Balthazar activated the device just before Primordus would have eaten him if he hadn’t.

draxynnic.3719:

The theory that the dragons and gods line up has been proposed so often that Arenanet put an item in the game saying there was no evidence behind it.

Stating there was no (current) proof doesn’t make it implausible/impossible.

draxynnic.3719:

The spectrum is broken up into six domains, each dominated by an Elder Dragon (at least, until we started killing them off). The gods, however, are not native to Tyria, and their magic is structured differently.

But what if the Elder Dragons were like “the dark side of the Force”, so to speak?

draxynnic.3719:

Certainly, the dragons were present on Tyria before the gods arrived, so the dragons were certainly not created by the gods as a means of depositing excess power or the like.

They could still have functioned as an anchor, as I suggested as another possibility, created by the Gods for them to be able to enter our world.

draxynnic.3719:

In the case of Balthazar targeting Primordus – it does seem quite likely that he did so because Primordus’ power is closer in nature to his own, and thus might be easier for him to assimilate. However, as Khailyn said, it might well have simply been a matter of access […]

It’s also possible that it’s simply coincidence. […]

Both variants would be pretty un-epic and lame story-wise, though. Also, I heavily doubt the similarity in the colors that we see in the screenshots is a mere coincidence. And there is no denying that each of these colors can be associated with a God as well as an Elder Dragon.

Ashantara.8731:

Stating there was no (current) proof doesn’t make it implausible/impossible.

It is pretty much the closest that ArenaNet is ever likely to get to saying “no, seriously, your theory is wrong, stop it.” though.

It also emphasises that it keeps coming up a lot - to the point where it’s practically a drinking game among the veterans.

But what if the Elder Dragons were like “the dark side of the Force”, so to speak?

That’s been tried. Doesn’t work.

One of the main areas where it falls down – and your theory does as well, incidentally – is that Grenth’s domain over cold predates his rise as one of the Six. Cold is not, and never was, one of the core domains of the gods – Grenth became one of the Six when he took over the mantle of Death. Meanwhile, the recent Living Story events have pretty much confirmed that cold is the core of Jormag’s domain.

Generally speaking, this appears to be one of the big distinctions between the gods and the dragons. The gods each represent an abstract concept – life, war, nature, death, knowledge, and… well, Lyssa is hard to pin down, but I’ll go with “inspiration”. Any elemental associations they have are incidental, and they’ve been known to swap them around between each other at least once. The dragons, however, are more physical – Zhaitan and Mordremoth blurred the line, but Primordus and Jormag are quite overtly the dragons of fire and ice respectively.

(It’s worth noting, in fact, that there is an argument to be made that Grenth is still not technically the god of death and that Dhuum still technically holds that mantle, but Grenth is able to function as the god of death due to Dhuum’s imprisonment and Grenth potentially drawing energy from the imprisoned Dhuum.)

They could still have functioned as an anchor, as I suggested as another possibility, created by the Gods for them to be able to enter our world.

Let me rephrase: The dragons were present a long, long time before the gods.

Both variants would be pretty un-epic and lame story-wise, though.

Depends on where the story goes. A lot of people are looking forward to storylines that are less dragon-centric, and having two of them put to sleep allows for that. Personally, I think there’s much more potential in the gods being their own thing that have a seperate role in the wider universe than shoehorning everything to the dragons.

Also, I heavily doubt the similarity in the colors that we see in the screenshots is a mere coincidence. And there is no denying that each of these colors can be associated with a God as well as an Elder Dragon.

First, there are only so many colours. Have six in one group and six in the other, and you’re going to have overlaps if you want the colours in each group to be easiliy distinguishable from one another.

Second, where exactly are you getting the colour associations of the gods from?

From the Guild Wars 2 character creation screen for deity choice for humans, and the murals at Gandara, we get the following associations:
Dwayna: Blue
Grenth: Dark green
Balthazar: Red
Melandru: Yellowish green
Lyssa: Purple
Kormir: Yellow (no mural at Gandara, but when she ascends she appears yellow)

Which is different to your assignment. This would place Dwayna with the DSD, Grenth with Zhaitan, Balthazar with Primordus, Melandru with Mordremoth, Lyssa with Kralkatorrik, and Kormir with… well, there is no yellow dragon, so yet again, they don’t line up. Well, five out of six is better than most of these theories manage.

Furthermore, the colour associations of the gods, like the elements, have changed. Abaddon was previously associated with purple, and now Kormir is associated with yellow (a possibly deliberate reversal). This seems to indicate that the colours of the domains of the gods are not fixed – and if they’re not fixed, then you can’t really draw any conclusions from them.

Also, the number 6 isn’t an absolute fixed number for the gods like it is with the dragons. Depending on what point in time you are referring to there were more or less that 6 gods. Abbadon’s fall left the number at 5 for awhile, Kormir replacing him brought the number back to 6. Similar things happened with Balthezar replacing his father and battling his half brother Menzies, or Grenth being a replacement god. The number of gods is fluid, whereas the dragons are fixed at 6 to maintain the balance of Tyria. There can’t be a strong relationship between the dragons and gods if the number is not fixed at a 1:1 ratio.

@draxynnic: I linked the two Wiki sites (Gods, Elder Dragons) repeatedly. The colors and what they are associated with are listed; for Grenth, ice is also mentioned.

Moonyeti.3296:

Also, the number 6 isn’t an absolute fixed number for the gods like it is with the dragons. Depending on what point in time you are referring to there were more or less that 6 gods. Abbadon’s fall left the number at 5 for awhile, Kormir replacing him brought the number back to 6. Similar things happened with Balthezar replacing his father and battling his half brother Menzies, or Grenth being a replacement god. The number of gods is fluid, whereas the dragons are fixed at 6 to maintain the balance of Tyria. There can’t be a strong relationship between the dragons and gods if the number is not fixed at a 1:1 ratio.

The number of gods was always 6. This didn’t change with Abaddons imprisonment. It was only 5 for that brief moment after Abaddons death ’til Kormir ran in and ruined an otherwise awesome moment.

There is no 1:1 connection between the human gods and the Elder Dragons. The book Dragons and Gods was put in the game at a time when everyone and their grandmothers were coming up with theories about the dragon-god pairings. That book is pretty much ANET telling their entire playerbase to stop it already.

@Ashantara: It amuses me when people assume I’m not familiar with the material and point me at the most basic sources thinking that will overcome my arguments when I’ve already looked deeper…

Nowhere on either wiki are there any colour associations for the gods listed, and if there were, I’d ask for primary sources. We can infer colours from various sources, as I did in my previous post, but we have nothing that serves as the equivalent of the All which definitively demonstrates that each dragon is associated with a colour.

I know that Grenth is associated with ice – however, ice is not the domain that makes him a god. If you look at Grenth’s history, it was not until he claimed the mantle of Death from Dhuum that he became a full god. Ice is part of Grenth’s portfolio, but Death is the most important part.

And I haven’t even gone into other flaws in your theory. Why is the Pale Tree representing Tyria, when she is only dragon champion power level at best (and was intended by Mordremoth to be one) and has only been around for two and a half centuries? If a free dragon champion gets representation, what about Glint? Gleam? Aurene? If a demigod like Menzies gets representation, then what happened when Grenth, previously a demigod, supplanted Dhuum, his predecessor as the God of Death? If Kormir is the center, wouldn’t that mean that Abaddon was the center before her, and how do you reconcile that with Abaddon having been imprisoned for over a thousand years with no apparent ill effects if he was that important?

Moonyeti.3296:

Also, the number 6 isn’t an absolute fixed number for the gods like it is with the dragons. Depending on what point in time you are referring to there were more or less that 6 gods. Abbadon’s fall left the number at 5 for awhile, Kormir replacing him brought the number back to 6. Similar things happened with Balthezar replacing his father and battling his half brother Menzies, or Grenth being a replacement god. The number of gods is fluid, whereas the dragons are fixed at 6 to maintain the balance of Tyria. There can’t be a strong relationship between the dragons and gods if the number is not fixed at a 1:1 ratio.

I’m not sure about this.

Abaddon was still a god while he was imprisoned, so during the period of his imprisonment, there were still six gods. Grenth was merely a demigod before he overthrew Dhuum, so he doesn’t count any more than Glint or the Pale Tree counted as an Elder Dragon. We don’t know much about what happened with Balthazar’s family beyond that one line, but everything we’ve seen indicates that there can be only one holder of the mantle of the God of War, with Balthazar being the one to hold it (at least, until recently) and Menzies fighting to supplant him.

We might see some disruption to that symmetry now – Balthazar did just absorb a lot of power, and if he was supplanted, that means there’s both Balthazar and his successor in play. However, in that scenario, Balthazar might still be technically just a demigod until he reclaims the mantle of War, however much power he’s absorbed from Primordus, Jormag, and the Maguuma bloodstone.

On the flipside, Ogden mentions that Glint might have become a new Elder Dragon if she lived long enough and absorbed enough magic. It’s possible that this might not have required the replacement of one of the existing Elder Dragons, and would instead have simply added a seventh orb to the All.

Oh well, guess I’ll have to wait and see. I am still not convinced.