Guild Wars 2

Now I wanna change the whole episode 5, what if the Commander would be patient to “Lazarus” and normally ask him without attack.

I will use some dialogues and try to change them in the way of normal, interested person.

Kasmeer pops up. the Commander and Kasmeer meet Taimi

Taimi: Hi! Hi! Thanks for the help. How do you like my new toy?

Commander and Kasmeer are fascinated and are curious what it is doing

Taimi: Machine make dragons go (death sound).

Marjory comes in and says that “Lazarus” is coming, everyone is scared, but then:

Commander: OK, guys, stop panic! When Lazarus will come we will normally ask questions.
Marjory: But Commander, he uses the mirror, but I don’t know what it does.
Kasmeer: Maybe that’s what he’s using to disguise himself. Mirrors have a long history with mesmer illusions.
Marjory: But what should we do then?
Kasmeer: Magic mirrors don’t like their own reflections; it runs counter to their spells.
Taimi: I have some so we can use them.
Commander: okey, I’m gonna prepare it, but it will be the Plan B, if Lazarus will not talk to us.

Taimi, Kasmeer and Marjory agree

Phlunt comes and says that the gate is broken, then he finds out that Taimi hid the lab from him, but then Lazarus comes and he is scared by his voice and goes to the lab without shouting at her.

Commander: We need to talk as the normal people.
Lazarus: What’s the matter? I heard that there is a machine, who can kill 2 dragons at once.
Commander: you are right, but i don’t know I can trust you.
Lazarus: Why?
Commander: I found out that you are not Lazarus and you are someone else.
Lazarus: What are you talking about, is this a joke?
Commander: No, Caudecus wrote that he hid the 5th aspect and then Lazarus couldn’t be resurrected.
Commander: And if you will not say who you are and why you imitated to be Lazarus, I will be forced to use force against you.

Lazarus agrees to tell the truth, he doesn’t wanna lie to anyone anymore

Lazarus: Ok, I am Balthazar.

He throws out the mirror and presents his real form

Kasmeer: (gasp) But why?…
Balthazar: They abated me, dimmed my light.
Commander: What happened?

And then he normally tells us the truth, what if the normal talk with him would change the whole episode, and normally Taimi and Phlunt would discover that killing the Dragons is really bad idea and then Balthazar, Kas, Jory and Taimi would go together to the Volcano to put 2 dragons to sleep and we would allow Balthazar to consume some Dragon’s energy until he will feel that’s enough.

What if we would just use words, not force against him, simply ask him. I am sure he wouldn’t injure Marjory, Kasmeer wouldn’t lose her faith, just normally help him.

Perhaps he would do something bad to us in the Volcano, but then Taimi would recalibrate the machine and put them to sleep as we wanted. Then at least we would have some answers, not just questions.

We attacked Balthazar and if he didn’t want to steal the machine, just cooperate with us? How would Commander feel if someone would lie to him and attack him as the coward, because Commander in ep 5 behaved as coward, used mirrors to attack Balthazar, and then what would angry Balthazar do? Stole the machine and destroy the world- great revenge, isn’t it?

That would be a bit pacifist, but I think everyone deserves to get a chance to say the truth.

TLDR; I wanted to change the dialogues to put everyone in a good light. Devs didn’t do this, but I wanna. So this is all about: What if Commander wouldn’t judge everyone and normally talk to “Lazarus” as the normal person.

half the issues of the world, both in gw2, gw1 and and the real world stem from the fact that people don’t take 5 minutes to TALK about what happened.
Almost every shakespearian tragedy stems from impatience or otherwise rashfullness.

Talking works well when there’s some element of trust to start with. However, it’s a good way to give psychopaths an opportunity to regroup and counter whatever “Plan B” you’ve prepared. Faux-Lazarus is not a “normal person” — he lied, trapped our heroes (and Phlunt’s team) in the lab, brought a horde of mercenaries, and… came to steal a machine from us. His intentions were never honorable.

tl;dr this isn’t about “judging” anyone; the time for talking passed long ago (if it ever existed).

maybe not, but we can’t know it for sure. But attacking him craftily is really weird.

Arden.7480:

maybe not, but we can’t know it for sure. But attacking him craftily is really weird.

It wasn’t “craftily” — the antagonist trapped them in the lab, brought his own army, and threatened them.

So Balthazar had plan B as well. Take his army if the talk wouldn’t work and then attack us. We didn’t have plan B, we just wanted to defeat him and it was really bad move. In the war you should seek the agreement, then attack if it’s necessary and Commander just feels like a god, but he’s not and didn’t care about anyone. Commander did not even react when Jory was injured. Didn’t react when Balthazar popped up.

at this point the writers don’t even know what they’re doing
I wish they’d retcon absolutely everything and start from zero, this is just awful. Fighting Balthazar? Really?

the last time a main character fought a god (Abbaddon ) it was at the end of nightfall, and it was supposed to be a tough fight, despite him being severely weakened

this is just bad writing

Mavis, I totally agree that storytelling in LS3 is really, really bad. I don’t like to complain, but I’ve never seen worst storytelling. So many misunderstandings, episodes work in the way to make players hyped instead of giving the instant answers.

We get answers in the next episode, and then it causes another questions, even more we could expect. I hate it.

In this post I was just trying to change something, try to put characters on good light, we are talking about the god, who came back to Tyria, but devs tricked it as trash and same our Commanders. Reveal wasn’t epic, gave lot of misunderstandings, and a god disappeared, because something tired him… wth ANet…

In the defence of the PC, there were quite a few signs that the Commander could interpret as hostile beyond the deception itself. Blocking the gate. One of his bodyguards was obviously Inquest, and B-guy seems to have done enough research to realise that was likely a red flag. And it might just be me, but that whole line of ‘camaraderie and strategic alignment’ did sound like it was intended to be mocking to me.

That’s not to say that it wasn’t possible that a mutually beneficial agreement could have been made. If the PC had known who it was beforehand, in fact, I suspect there would have been more questions asked before the fighting started, but of course the whole problem was that this was an unknown. However, it’s also possible that tipping our hand would have put B-Guy on his guard – if he knew we knew that he was disguised, he might have been a little more cautious about entering the focal point of an array of mirrors.

Arden.7480:

In this post I was just trying to change something, try to put characters on good light, we are talking about the god, who came back to Tyria, but devs tricked it as trash and same our Commanders. Reveal wasn’t epic, gave lot of misunderstandings, and a god disappeared, because something tired him… wth ANet…

I was just venting.

It’s just silly how Anet thought this plot twist was a good idea. Here’s hoping they hire new writers.

draxynnic.3719:

In the defence of the PC, there were quite a few signs that the Commander could interpret as hostile beyond the deception itself. Blocking the gate. One of his bodyguards was obviously Inquest, and B-guy seems to have done enough research to realise that was likely a red flag. And it might just be me, but that whole line of ‘camaraderie and strategic alignment’ did sound like it was intended to be mocking to me.

That’s not to say that it wasn’t possible that a mutually beneficial agreement could have been made. If the PC had known who it was beforehand, in fact, I suspect there would have been more questions asked before the fighting started, but of course the whole problem was that this was an unknown. However, it’s also possible that tipping our hand would have put B-Guy on his guard – if he knew we knew that he was disguised, he might have been a little more cautious about entering the focal point of an array of mirrors.

I am aware. But the Commander itself should seek the agreements, not just making enemies. “Lazarus” did not lie that he wants to kill Dragons, so wait I am gonna change something in my 1st post that Balthazar wanted to destroy Tyria, I think he didn’t until the commander said that he is gonna destroy our planet.

So if he would come back when we were fighting with Mordremoth, he would be most welcome, but he came back now, and he didn’t know about our discoveries, so I don’t know… I am totally aware that Balthazar isn’t positive character, but he’s not evil too, he just thinks in the other ways than we do, he is a god, maybe fallen, but a god indeed.

And is we put the words and change “Lazarus” as “Balthazar” this dialogue looks really weird:
Balthazar: But now I see we must all stand against the dragons to save everyone.
Commander: You hope to align yourself with me?
Balthazar: You have killed two, have you not? Our interests are the same.
Balthazar: The fire dragon is rising. I cannot stand idly by and repeat past mistakes.
Balthazar: My actions since returning prove me a useful ally.
Marjory Delaqua: Like when you destroyed the Bloodstone?
Balthazar: The Bloodstone was destabilized by years of misguided White Mantle tinkering.
Balthazar: I did absorb the blast to repower myself, but also, how many countless lives were saved?
Marjory Delaqua: What’s the angle you’re running? What’s in an alliance for you?
Balthazar: The salvation of this world.

It was all said before we figured out that killing dragons is bad.

When “Lazarus” in Dragon Vigil said that “our interests are the same” it would mean maybe other Mursaats, or “our interests” means interests between Commander and “Lazarus”? This sentence sounds weird and confuses me a bit.

But anyway “our” can mean and this and this.

“Balthazar: You have killed two, have you not? Our interests are the same.”

So “our” means that other Gods are about to coming back and kill Dragons? They wanna replace Dragons? Consume the Dragons’ magic? Remove anomalies in Tyria?

“Balthazar: The salvation of this world. " That really sounds as a trolling when we remind about something what happened in the volcano where Primordus sleeps.

The whole situation is really complicated, why didn’t he even say why he pretended to be Lazarus… ughh he is so stupid…

But by the way, you guys have hard proofs and I am aware of all of them. All I do here is just pure speculating.

And I know you are right with your opinions.

Mavis.1463:

I was just venting.

It’s just silly how Anet thought this plot twist was a good idea. Here’s hoping they hire new writers.

Gotta say, I know how you feel.

Lazarus eventually coming back is a plot thread that had been hanging for nine years before his appearance in Out of the Shadows. It’s pretty unsatisfying for the final payoff to that setup being no more than serving as the disguise for somebody else.

Meanwhile, making that someone be Balthazar feels like they’ve caught World of Warcraft’s disease. Need a new antagonist? Well, if you take a character that has any moral ambiguity whatsoever and Flanderise the darker sides of their character, you have your new antagonist with a tie to your old lore right there! Never mind that in the process you’re turning previously complex characters into two-dimensional villains.

Hiring new writers seems to be part of the problem – there aren’t very many of the original team left. Both of their lore oversight people are gone (Jeff and Ree), and it’s not clear who fills that role now… or even if it is.

Arden.7480:

I am aware. But the Commander itself should seek the agreements, not just making enemies. “Lazarus” did not lie that he wants to kill Dragons, so wait I am gonna change something in my 1st post that Balthazar wanted to destroy Tyria, I think he didn’t until the commander said that he is gonna destroy our planet.

I think Balthazar genuinely didn’t care. If Tyria is destroyed? Not important. If Tyria survives? Also not important.

Which does mean that an alliance, at least of convenience, probably was entirely possible. We want to neutralise the dragon threat without creating a cascade of magic that will destroy Tyria. Balthazar wanted to absorb magic. Seems to me that with a bit of planning and cooperation, these goals are not only non-contradictory, but complement one another. In fact, it’s entirely possible that we could have left Balthazar alone and everything would have been fine, because instead of the magic being released and destroying the world (as Taimi’s simulation probably didn’t model the magic being absorbed), the magic would possibly have all gone into Balthazar and been safely contained.

Like I said, however, my gut feeling was that Balthazar went in expecting a fight – albeit not to be revealed. What went down is at least as much his fault as the PC’s – most of the distrust aimed at him was because, well, mursaat. If he’d revealed who he truly was while defending Aurene, then he might well have achieved a genuine alliance – even if the PC isn’t favourably inclined towards him, the Luminate would probably be inclined to at least hear him out.

As it is… the dialogue that you’re referring to appears to be Balthazar acting out a role (instead of revealing himself as he probably should have). It’s possible that he genuinely did want a true alliance, but being Balthazar, he was too impatient to attempt diplomacy more than once when taking what he wants by force of arms is an option. It wouldn’t be the first time.

Wait what? Ree Soesbee doesn’t write story? O_o Oh man in my head I was blaming her for this horrible storytelling.

But why… her book- Sea of Sorrows is masterpiece and lyrics for Fear not this Night…

Did she leave ANet or she just doesn’t write lore?

Ok so this is why the ls3 story is trash… no good writers=bad story….

Sorry Ree…((

People don’t seem to realize that this isn’t the plot twist at the end. It’s had almost no build up at all. I mean for us it’s been a couple of months, but it’s not a couple of months in the story. This isn’t the climax, that’s the next episode.

It’s like people don’t realize we’re in the middle of something, not the end of it.

@Arden: Yeah, there was no official announcement, but Ree left at the beginning of the year according to her LinkedIn profile. (Which means she possibly did have a hand in planning out the Season 3 story, but she’s certainly gone now, and her being completely unheard from for a while and then leaving might be indicative that her influence had been… abated.)

@Vayne: Well, one thing I’d meant to include in my previous post and forgotten (and I had just come back because I realised I had forgotten) was that I’m reserving final judgement until we do see the plot fully develop. However, I can see it just coming across as throwing Balthazar in as an antagonist just for the sake of having a powerful antagonist who isn’t an Elder Dragon if the further development isn’t handled well.

Arden.7480:

Wait what? Ree Soesbee doesn’t write story? O_o Oh man in my head I was blaming her for this horrible storytelling.

But why… her book- Sea of Sorrows is masterpiece and lyrics for Fear not this Night…

Did she leave ANet or she just doesn’t write lore?

Ok so this is why the ls3 story is trash… no good writers=bad story….

Sorry Ree…((

Ree left ANET in January this year according to her LinkedIn profile.

draxynnic.3719:

but she’s certainly gone now, and her being completely unheard from for a while and then leaving might be indicative that her influence had been… abated.

They dimmed her light… but now everyone will see her!

@draxynnic- using “abated” made me smile.

Ree Soesbee: “The abated me, dimmed my light… They will see me now.” lol

^Interesting. Tells how much Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2 and Heart of Thorns generated.

Arden.7480:

Wait what? Ree Soesbee doesn’t write story?

Keep in mind that the voice actors almost always record their bits in a single studio session, which means all six episodes were probably recorded last spring.

Besides that, I’m sure much of the plot was already established before she left. The first story released in July 2016, which means actual programming started on it no later than March-April (and the story was probably being worked on even before that). Unless she stayed for 8 months or more after she tendered her resignation, she must have had a substantive influence on the plot, if not some (or much) of the dialogue.

tl;dr Soesbee likely had a profound influence on LS3’s plot and probably dialogue.

It just feels like the are leading up to a point when many of the human race will side with Balth and it will turn into another HoT.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Arden.7480:

Wait what? Ree Soesbee doesn’t write story?

Keep in mind that the voice actors almost always record their bits in a single studio session, which means all six episodes were probably recorded last spring.

Besides that, I’m sure much of the plot was already established before she left. The first story released in July 2016, which means actual programming started on it no later than March-April (and the story was probably being worked on even before that). Unless she stayed for 8 months or more after she tendered her resignation, she must have had a substantive influence on the plot, if not some (or much) of the dialogue.

tl;dr Soesbee likely had a profound influence on LS3’s plot and probably dialogue.

I am disappointed by storytelling in LS3 as I said few times already, but I am so sad that GW2 didn’t organize any official farewell… Even on wiki she is still in ANet, so I didn’t know.

Anyway I see lot of amazing dialougues and returns of characters from Personal Story- Demmi, Caudecus, Jennah etc and “use your footkey. Commander”- I am sad that Canach didn’t join to our guild, because she started to be normal, not just cynical. But it’s not point of this topic.

The plot of Lazarus was weird- everyone was hyped because Mursaat returned and then we found out that he is an imposter. Then they had to put another epic character, who almost destroyed Tyria. For me too much complications in the story.

My favorite episode is still The Head of the Snake- most epic and in this episode I was hyped till the end- and Demmi- my favorite female character of GW2.

Arden.7480:

I am sad that Canach didn’t join to our guild, because she started to be normal, not just cynical. But it’s not point of this topic.

I suspect he will, but keep in mind that since late 1325 he’s spent six months on the run, about a year in jail, and the rest of that time under Anise’s thumb – a position he appears not to have particularly enjoyed. The guy probably really needs a break. If he had any friends outside the Consortium, too, it’s likely that he’ll want to catch up with them.

Also we were the ones who put Canach in jail (after he ruined crab island and tried to kill us, mind you). Everyone, even the writers, kind of forgot that part.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Also we were the ones who put Canach in jail (after he ruined crab island and tried to kill us, mind you). Everyone, even the writers, kind of forgot that part.

I don’t think it was outright forgotten, just that the characters have moved on. Canach recognises he did wrong, doesn’t hold a grudge against the PC, and served his time despite having numerous opportunities to do a runner, and the PC, in turn, recognises that. If you believe that rehabilitation and redemption is possible at all, Canach is the poster child for it.

Even with that, the PC was rubbing Canach’s nose in it through much of Season 2, but there’s a point where enough is enough.

That said, though, I could see Canach not wanting to spend his first days as a free sylvari with the one who put him away.

draxynnic.3719:

Hiring new writers seems to be part of the problem – there aren’t very many of the original team left. Both of their lore oversight people are gone (Jeff and Ree), and it’s not clear who fills that role now… or even if it is.

Ree and Jeff weren’t particularly good at their job.

Stacie Magelssen
Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Cory Herndon
Caitlin Kittredge
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

They were the veterans behind the stories in Guild Wars Prophecies. Guild Wars 2 has yet to top even the most mediocre of stories in Guild Wars 1.

Pre-searing Ascalon, Crossing the shiverpeaks with Rurik, Discovering Kryta, meeting Glint and the seer, etc. Guild Wars 2 feels hollow in comparison.

Stuff like the Auric Basin and the Exalted are a step in the right direction but that hardly makes up for all the bad storytelling and shallow characters we’ve had to deal with since S1.

And there aren’t many of those left either.

Interestingly, from what I’ve heard, Prophecies came about because the various writers disagreed on what the story should be, so they ended up compromising and doing a bit of each. Just goes to show that sometimes designing by committee CAN work.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Also we were the ones who put Canach in jail (after he ruined crab island and tried to kill us, mind you). Everyone, even the writers, kind of forgot that part.

It wasn’t forgotten, ArenaNet just had a kneejerk reaction to player reaction of how the PC treated Canach in Season 2.

In Season 2, the PC threatened Canach’s life at every turn, which granted was overkill, and people didn’t like that – they didn’t mind hostility, but they hated how the PC showed no restraint in the threats when Canach hasn’t done anything wrong since his imprisonment (and even helped out at Battle for Lion’s Arch, it should be added – he didn’t try to run and he fought a handful of Scarlet’s goons when they evacuated the city, and complyingly went back into a cell).

Then in HoT, we treated him like best buds from the get go. It’s pretty clear that the drastic change was a kneejerk reaction to change the tempo, when it should have been progressional during HoT.

But the treatment of Canach in Season 3 seems fairly sound – Canach’s actions in HoT were above and beyond what would be called for, and his actions in the S1 finale (as minor as they were) and in S2 only added to it.

Mavis.1463:

Ree and Jeff weren’t particularly good at their job.
Stacie Magelssen
Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Cory Herndon
Caitlin Kittredge
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

They were the veterans behind the stories in Guild Wars Prophecies. Guild Wars 2 has yet to top even the most mediocre of stories in Guild Wars 1.

Pre-searing Ascalon, Crossing the shiverpeaks with Rurik, Discovering Kryta, meeting Glint and the seer, etc. Guild Wars 2 feels hollow in comparison.

Truth be told, Prophecies wasn’t a masterwork either, and ironically Prophecies appeared the way it did because – from what I heard from John Stumme – there was a disagreement on where the plot should go between the two main writers who were doing the overarching plot direction at the time. Which is why we got that split between focusing on the mursaat and focusing on the undead. It’s ironic because that disagreement seemed to have made it as good as it was, and just one or the other probably would have made it sub-par. (Edit: Just noticed drax commented on that very thing too, hah.)

The highlight of Guild Wars, imo, was Nightfall, which was the first piece that Jeff Grubb and Ree Soesbee worked on. They’re the ones who were the main writers for Joko and Abaddon, who are considered the best villains (or characters in general) of the franchise.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Prophecies appeared the way it did because – from what I heard from John Stumme – there was a disagreement on where the plot should go between the two main writers who were doing the overarching plot direction at the time. Which is why we got that split between focusing on the mursaat and focusing on the undead. It’s ironic because that disagreement seemed to have made it as good as it was, and just one or the other probably would have made it sub-par.

Ironically, you’ve articulated something that has bothered me about Prophecies ever since I first played it and I could never put my finger on it. That split focus makes it horrid for me. It makes it seem like (a) the writers couldn’t agree (which, as it turns out, they couldn’t) and (b) as if the player character is out of their depth. It also, for me, makes the story laborious rather than fun to complete.

In other words, the very thing that improved the story for you, damaged it for me.

Oh, it definitely could have been linked up better together. However, I think the various ideas that went into the plot helped generate some of the complexity – instead of having one clear villain who was the target from early on in the story (as has happened for most of the storylines since Prophecies) you have two major and one relatively minor villain group to deal with who are hostile to one another, to the point where the main thing that made one of the major villain groups villainous was the method they chose to ward off the other, and before you’ve finished you’ll have fought alongside each of the major villain groups against the other.

Compare this to, say, Nightfall, which while probably better executed overall, was pretty much a straightforward case of peeling your way through the layers of catspaws and commanders until you get to Abaddon himself. Would Prophecies have been as interesting if we were fighting puppets of Khilbron all along, or if we cast down the mursaat headquarters and there was no twist that we’d actually made things worse? Probably not.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Talking works well when there’s some element of trust to start with. However, it’s a good way to give psychopaths an opportunity to regroup and counter whatever “Plan B” you’ve prepared. Faux-Lazarus is not a “normal person” — he lied, trapped our heroes (and Phlunt’s team) in the lab, brought a horde of mercenaries, and… came to steal a machine from us. His intentions were never honorable.

tl;dr this isn’t about “judging” anyone; the time for talking passed long ago (if it ever existed).

Well I found something what can refresh your memory.

In Party Politics we had to prove that Estelle is a traitor. We did, but before we had to talk to her, not go to her and attack and arrest her, so she could say (maybe even lie to us) what she was doing in Queen’s Jubilee. So Estelle- the little stupid traitor deserved the conversation and defending herself, but surprisingly Lazarus did not. Well Commander changes his opinion and everything really fast. But well everything changed when Caithe stole the Egg and then the Commander started to be suspicious to anyone he met.

Anyway I wanna my Commander from LS2 to come back!

So yeah. We used some talk instead of force against someone.

To be fair, the distinction there is probably that the Commander is confident that (s)he could handle anything that Estelle might try to pull… particularly in a public location where any fight that did break out would be quickly responded to and the instigator arrested. Physically attacking Estelle would have ended the investigation there and then.

Lazarus was a different situation – the Commander says to Marjory in Episode 2 that putting Lazarus down wouldn’t be easy (not the precise words, but that’s the gist), so the Commander is probably looking to get every advantage they can, including surprise. There’s also no third party around to intervene on behalf of whoever is struck first, so nothing is lost by striking first except the opportunity to talk. And, as previously noted, the Commander seemed to feel that Lazarus had already taken hostile actions by hijacking the gate.

Could talking have lead to a better outcome? Possibly. It might also have lead to a worse outcome. Either way, I don’t think it’s a case of the Commander having changed so much as using a different tactic for a different situation.