Guild Wars 2

Okay, I have to say this, I am liking the new Living Story season so far, but one thing I don’t like is how Braham is developing as a character. He’s quickly going from a character I used to like to a character I am now beginning to loath.

For me, the Braham I liked was the character we saw in LS2. In particular, his protective big brother relationship with Taimi and his friendship with Rox was something I enjoyed seeing develop. For obvious reasons this took a turn during the expansion story and Braham has since become a whiny, revenge-starved maniac who quickly disregards the issues, feelings and opinions of others in order to fuel his own Agenda.

We already saw some of this development in the expansion with the way he treated Tiami like a useless child and kept brooding about wanting to kill Mordremoth, but I had hoped that since Taimi had saved him and proven that she was more of an asset to the team, that he’d cool his head a bit and start seeing the bigger picture. Unfortunately, this latest LS episode proves otherwise; he’s become even more whiny and selfish than ever and still treats everyone else on the team like expendable baggage.

I have to say, I hate whiny characters. That doesn’t mean to say I hate characters who have a revenge complex, but I prefer it when they’re written in a manner that makes them seem more cold, calculated and thoughtful, and less like a spoiled child who rages and gives everyone around them the middle finger whenever things don’t go their way.

To me, this is why people disliked Logan, because he was whiny, often childish and abandoned his teammates because he was blinded by his own personal agenda and failed to see the bigger picture (which also lead to more than one ally’s death). Unfortunately, I see Braham ending up in the same pit and even if this is a ploy by the writers to create a fall and redemption type story for Braham, I’m afraid that by the time he finally comes around again the damage will have already been done and Braham will be irredeemable as a character in the eyes of many players.

If Braham is going to remain a mainstay in the player’s primary entourage, then I’d encourage writers to please take more care of him as a character and not drag him through a river of muddy salt.

I think i disagree a little with you here.
The main difference for me being that we never saw Logans fall ourselves.
We only heard about it.

Here though we saw his story unfold.
We saw him when he first sought out Knut Whitebeard, teamed up with Rox, got confronted with talking to his mother and finally warm up a Little to Eir after feeling abandoned from here.

And there’s the thing why i actually kinda sympathize with him.
He finally after, not sure 16-18 years?, got to know the woman he only knew as this idealized hero of legend and right when he thought they could be a family, when SHE started to treat him like a son, it gets taken away from him.

Quite honestly i’d like to know how you would have reacted to this.
Would you stay calm and just shrug it off?
I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t.

And while all this happens everyone tells him: Braham, just stay calm, breath…

How would this affect you?
Does it seem childish? Maybe.
But it actually makes sense.

Braham has been pvping and raiding a lot lately. Just give him a vial of salt lol.

LouWolfskin.3492:

I think i disagree a little with you here.
The main difference for me being that we never saw Logans fall ourselves.
We only heard about it.

Here though we saw his story unfold.
We saw him when he first sought out Knut Whitebeard, teamed up with Rox, got confronted with talking to his mother and finally warm up a Little to Eir after feeling abandoned from here.

And there’s the thing why i actually kinda sympathize with him.
He finally after, not sure 16-18 years?, got to know the woman he only knew as this idealized hero of legend and right when he thought they could be a family, when SHE started to treat him like a son, it gets taken away from him.

Quite honestly i’d like to know how you would have reacted to this.
Would you stay calm and just shrug it off?
I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t.

And while all this happens everyone tells him: Braham, just stay calm, breath…

How would this affect you?
Does it seem childish? Maybe.
But it actually makes sense.

As I said, I don’t mind the whole vengeful character theme, but I also think how that character is portrayed can make or break it. When I think of a good example, I think something along the lines of “The Count of Monte Cristo” or even “V for Vendetta” (which is also inspired by the former), where you can see the character has been consumed by revenge, but they approach it in a cold, calculated and thoughtful manner. They never behave in a way that is whiny or childish, but you can still see how the pursuit of revenge has damaged them as people and how it destroys those around them. You still sympathize with them and maybe even feel like rooting for them, but they don’t seem annoying or repulsive so to speak.

In the case of Braham, however, the character is portrayed in a much more annoying and obnoxious manner and it kinda just puts me off. I just think if they’re going for the whole revenge thing, they should just do it in a way that still carries across the dread and empathy associated with the character’s feelings or actions, but not in a way that makes the character grating or annoying.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

LouWolfskin.3492:

I think i disagree a little with you here.
The main difference for me being that we never saw Logans fall ourselves.
We only heard about it.

Here though we saw his story unfold.
We saw him when he first sought out Knut Whitebeard, teamed up with Rox, got confronted with talking to his mother and finally warm up a Little to Eir after feeling abandoned from here.

And there’s the thing why i actually kinda sympathize with him.
He finally after, not sure 16-18 years?, got to know the woman he only knew as this idealized hero of legend and right when he thought they could be a family, when SHE started to treat him like a son, it gets taken away from him.

Quite honestly i’d like to know how you would have reacted to this.
Would you stay calm and just shrug it off?
I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t.

And while all this happens everyone tells him: Braham, just stay calm, breath…

How would this affect you?
Does it seem childish? Maybe.
But it actually makes sense.

As I said, I don’t mind the whole vengeful character theme, but I also think how that character is portrayed can make or break it. When I think of a good example, I think something along the lines of “The Count of Monte Cristo” or even “V for Vendetta” (which is also inspired by the former), where you can see the character has been consumed by revenge, but they approach it in a cold, calculated and thoughtful manner. They never behave in a way that is whiny or childish, but you can still see how the pursuit of revenge has damaged them as people and how it destroys those around them. You still sympathize with them and maybe even feel like rooting for them, but they don’t seem annoying or repulsive so to speak.

In the case of Braham, however, the character is portrayed in a much more annoying and obnoxious manner and it kinda just puts me off. I just think if they’re going for the whole revenge thing, they should just do it in a way that still carries across the dread and empathy associated with the character’s feelings or actions, but not in a way that makes the character grating or annoying.

The Count of Montecristo was an adult man who had years in prison to plan out his revenge.
Braham is a young adult still realing with hormones who lost his mommy during a war.

Get some perspective maybe.

LouWolfskin.3492:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

LouWolfskin.3492:

I think i disagree a little with you here.
The main difference for me being that we never saw Logans fall ourselves.
We only heard about it.

Here though we saw his story unfold.
We saw him when he first sought out Knut Whitebeard, teamed up with Rox, got confronted with talking to his mother and finally warm up a Little to Eir after feeling abandoned from here.

And there’s the thing why i actually kinda sympathize with him.
He finally after, not sure 16-18 years?, got to know the woman he only knew as this idealized hero of legend and right when he thought they could be a family, when SHE started to treat him like a son, it gets taken away from him.

Quite honestly i’d like to know how you would have reacted to this.
Would you stay calm and just shrug it off?
I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t.

And while all this happens everyone tells him: Braham, just stay calm, breath…

How would this affect you?
Does it seem childish? Maybe.
But it actually makes sense.

As I said, I don’t mind the whole vengeful character theme, but I also think how that character is portrayed can make or break it. When I think of a good example, I think something along the lines of “The Count of Monte Cristo” or even “V for Vendetta” (which is also inspired by the former), where you can see the character has been consumed by revenge, but they approach it in a cold, calculated and thoughtful manner. They never behave in a way that is whiny or childish, but you can still see how the pursuit of revenge has damaged them as people and how it destroys those around them. You still sympathize with them and maybe even feel like rooting for them, but they don’t seem annoying or repulsive so to speak.

In the case of Braham, however, the character is portrayed in a much more annoying and obnoxious manner and it kinda just puts me off. I just think if they’re going for the whole revenge thing, they should just do it in a way that still carries across the dread and empathy associated with the character’s feelings or actions, but not in a way that makes the character grating or annoying.

The Count of Montecristo was an adult man who had years in prison to plan out his revenge.
Braham is a young adult still realing with hormones who lost his mommy during a war.

Get some perspective maybe.

If you believe that only younger men can act childishly and older men more maturely or in a calculated manner then perhaps you need some perspective, because I’ve seen more than enough cases where it is quite the opposite to know that you cannot simply label people based on rheir age demographic in such a black and white manner.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

LouWolfskin.3492:

I think i disagree a little with you here.
The main difference for me being that we never saw Logans fall ourselves.
We only heard about it.

Here though we saw his story unfold.
We saw him when he first sought out Knut Whitebeard, teamed up with Rox, got confronted with talking to his mother and finally warm up a Little to Eir after feeling abandoned from here.

And there’s the thing why i actually kinda sympathize with him.
He finally after, not sure 16-18 years?, got to know the woman he only knew as this idealized hero of legend and right when he thought they could be a family, when SHE started to treat him like a son, it gets taken away from him.

Quite honestly i’d like to know how you would have reacted to this.
Would you stay calm and just shrug it off?
I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t.

And while all this happens everyone tells him: Braham, just stay calm, breath…

How would this affect you?
Does it seem childish? Maybe.
But it actually makes sense.

As I said, I don’t mind the whole vengeful character theme, but I also think how that character is portrayed can make or break it. When I think of a good example, I think something along the lines of “The Count of Monte Cristo” or even “V for Vendetta” (which is also inspired by the former), where you can see the character has been consumed by revenge, but they approach it in a cold, calculated and thoughtful manner. They never behave in a way that is whiny or childish, but you can still see how the pursuit of revenge has damaged them as people and how it destroys those around them. You still sympathize with them and maybe even feel like rooting for them, but they don’t seem annoying or repulsive so to speak.

In the case of Braham, however, the character is portrayed in a much more annoying and obnoxious manner and it kinda just puts me off. I just think if they’re going for the whole revenge thing, they should just do it in a way that still carries across the dread and empathy associated with the character’s feelings or actions, but not in a way that makes the character grating or annoying.

The Count of Montecristo was an adult man who had years in prison to plan out his revenge.
Braham is a young adult still realing with hormones who lost his mommy during a war.

Get some perspective maybe.

If you believe that only younger men can act childishly and older men more maturely or in a calculated manner then perhaps you need some perspective, because I’ve seen more than enough cases where it is quite the opposite to know that you cannot simply label people based on rheir age demographic in such a black and white manner.

I’m also basing this on the situation they’re in.

You want a cold, calculated revenge sceam from someone who’s in an emotional state of loss of a family member and your example is someone who had years on years to hold only on to that revenge to keep his sanity.

It’s a vastly different setup being used for the respective story.

And i’m not saying that only young men can be childish or all desire born from an extreme situation would be emotional but you completely ignore Brahams backstory while saying you liked what was shown in season 2.

LouWolfskin.3492:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

LouWolfskin.3492:

I think i disagree a little with you here.
The main difference for me being that we never saw Logans fall ourselves.
We only heard about it.

Here though we saw his story unfold.
We saw him when he first sought out Knut Whitebeard, teamed up with Rox, got confronted with talking to his mother and finally warm up a Little to Eir after feeling abandoned from here.

And there’s the thing why i actually kinda sympathize with him.
He finally after, not sure 16-18 years?, got to know the woman he only knew as this idealized hero of legend and right when he thought they could be a family, when SHE started to treat him like a son, it gets taken away from him.

Quite honestly i’d like to know how you would have reacted to this.
Would you stay calm and just shrug it off?
I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t.

And while all this happens everyone tells him: Braham, just stay calm, breath…

How would this affect you?
Does it seem childish? Maybe.
But it actually makes sense.

As I said, I don’t mind the whole vengeful character theme, but I also think how that character is portrayed can make or break it. When I think of a good example, I think something along the lines of “The Count of Monte Cristo” or even “V for Vendetta” (which is also inspired by the former), where you can see the character has been consumed by revenge, but they approach it in a cold, calculated and thoughtful manner. They never behave in a way that is whiny or childish, but you can still see how the pursuit of revenge has damaged them as people and how it destroys those around them. You still sympathize with them and maybe even feel like rooting for them, but they don’t seem annoying or repulsive so to speak.

In the case of Braham, however, the character is portrayed in a much more annoying and obnoxious manner and it kinda just puts me off. I just think if they’re going for the whole revenge thing, they should just do it in a way that still carries across the dread and empathy associated with the character’s feelings or actions, but not in a way that makes the character grating or annoying.

The Count of Montecristo was an adult man who had years in prison to plan out his revenge.
Braham is a young adult still realing with hormones who lost his mommy during a war.

Get some perspective maybe.

If you believe that only younger men can act childishly and older men more maturely or in a calculated manner then perhaps you need some perspective, because I’ve seen more than enough cases where it is quite the opposite to know that you cannot simply label people based on rheir age demographic in such a black and white manner.

I’m also basing this on the situation they’re in.

You want a cold, calculated revenge sceam from someone who’s in an emotional state of loss of a family member and your example is someone who had years on years to hold only on to that revenge to keep his sanity.

It’s a vastly different setup being used for the respective story.

And i’m not saying that only young men can be childish or all desire born from an extreme situation would be emotional but you completely ignore Brahams backstory while saying you liked what was shown in season 2.

Actually, I was using the cold calculated revenge scheme as an example. My main point was that I just didn’t want Brahams character to be written in such a way so as to become annoying .

I don’t mind him wanting revenge or acting out, it’s just the way he’s portrayed that irks me.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

LouWolfskin.3492:

I think i disagree a little with you here.
The main difference for me being that we never saw Logans fall ourselves.
We only heard about it.

Here though we saw his story unfold.
We saw him when he first sought out Knut Whitebeard, teamed up with Rox, got confronted with talking to his mother and finally warm up a Little to Eir after feeling abandoned from here.

And there’s the thing why i actually kinda sympathize with him.
He finally after, not sure 16-18 years?, got to know the woman he only knew as this idealized hero of legend and right when he thought they could be a family, when SHE started to treat him like a son, it gets taken away from him.

Quite honestly i’d like to know how you would have reacted to this.
Would you stay calm and just shrug it off?
I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t.

And while all this happens everyone tells him: Braham, just stay calm, breath…

How would this affect you?
Does it seem childish? Maybe.
But it actually makes sense.

As I said, I don’t mind the whole vengeful character theme, but I also think how that character is portrayed can make or break it. When I think of a good example, I think something along the lines of “The Count of Monte Cristo” or even “V for Vendetta” (which is also inspired by the former), where you can see the character has been consumed by revenge, but they approach it in a cold, calculated and thoughtful manner. They never behave in a way that is whiny or childish, but you can still see how the pursuit of revenge has damaged them as people and how it destroys those around them. You still sympathize with them and maybe even feel like rooting for them, but they don’t seem annoying or repulsive so to speak.

In the case of Braham, however, the character is portrayed in a much more annoying and obnoxious manner and it kinda just puts me off. I just think if they’re going for the whole revenge thing, they should just do it in a way that still carries across the dread and empathy associated with the character’s feelings or actions, but not in a way that makes the character grating or annoying.

The Count of Montecristo was an adult man who had years in prison to plan out his revenge.
Braham is a young adult still realing with hormones who lost his mommy during a war.

Get some perspective maybe.

If you believe that only younger men can act childishly and older men more maturely or in a calculated manner then perhaps you need some perspective, because I’ve seen more than enough cases where it is quite the opposite to know that you cannot simply label people based on rheir age demographic in such a black and white manner.

I’m also basing this on the situation they’re in.

You want a cold, calculated revenge sceam from someone who’s in an emotional state of loss of a family member and your example is someone who had years on years to hold only on to that revenge to keep his sanity.

It’s a vastly different setup being used for the respective story.

And i’m not saying that only young men can be childish or all desire born from an extreme situation would be emotional but you completely ignore Brahams backstory while saying you liked what was shown in season 2.

Actually, I was using the cold calculated revenge scheme as an example. My main point was that I just didn’t want Brahams character to be written in such a way so as to become annoying .

I don’t mind him wanting revenge or acting out, it’s just the way he’s portrayed that irks me.

In regards to that i’d say let’s wait.
I’m not too sure on the timeline but i think it’s been only weeks in universe since Eir died and we defeated Mordremoth.
I think he’ll get back on track soon enough.
Especially since A-Net knows how people reacted to the Destiny’s Edge-Drama that was shown ingame.

From my perspective at least Brahams behavior is pretty much understandable and from what we’ve seen so far, not only in HoT or Season 3, he’ll find his calm again, if only when another person he cares for is in danger.

LouWolfskin.3492:

Braham is a young adult still realing with hormones who lost his mommy during a war.

Get some perspective maybe.

Regardless, he’s in a position of influence, and he’s about to lead a whole bunch of norns to their death and royally screw up the commander’s plan to resolve two dragon problems at once bloodlessly.

As the old adage goes, with great power comes great responsibility, and he’s not acting responsible at all. I have no respect for anyone who pulls a stunt like this when they’re in such a position of power. If he can’t get his emotions in control, he shouldn’t be calling the shots.

If it were up to me at all, I’d have made sure Braham never retrieved that scroll once it became apparent he was so recklessly out of control. He can then continue to be as angsty as he likes as long as it doesn’t come with the potential for great disaster.

The fact that the commander doesn’t think of this course of action annoys me too. It should’ve been evident from the first interaction that Braham was unstable, and you don’t go around putting potent magic into the hands of someone like that.

Opc.4718:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Braham is a young adult still realing with hormones who lost his mommy during a war.

Get some perspective maybe.

Regardless, he’s in a position of influence, and he’s about to lead a whole bunch of norns to their death and royally screw up the commander’s plan to resolve two dragon problems at once bloodlessly.

As the old adage goes, with great power comes great responsibility, and he’s not acting responsible at all. I have no respect for anyone who pulls a stunt like this when they’re in such a position of power. If he can’t get his emotions in control, he shouldn’t be calling the shots.

If it were up to me at all, I’d have made sure Braham never retrieved that scroll once it became apparent he was so recklessly out of control. He can then continue to be as angsty as he likes as long as it doesn’t come with the potential for great disaster.

Perhaps this is part of the problem. Because of our lack of story choices and our inability to intervene in situations where you can see disaster written on the walls, it creates this sense that you’re at the mercy of the plot, whether it ends up being good or bad. In this case, it seems almost certain that Braham is about to commit his entire race to a disaster on what could possibly be a genocidal scale, all because he’s acting in a manner that seems childishly irresponsible.

Meanwhile, we’ll have to sit on the sidelines and watch it unfold, powerless to do anything unless the writers write our own character into a position where they can bash Braham over the head with an oversized cup of wake the hell up, because that’s just the nature of the story. That’s what irks me the most. Still, I’m hoping it doesn’t get to that and I’m hoping the writers do a good job of redeeming the situation somehow.

This unfortunately isn’t the first time Braham’s rash behavior has caused some issues. Whilst some may consider it merited at the time, it cost quite a fair bit.

When Scarlet was finally confronted (good riddance), we actually had an opportunity to learn. The one chance to know the reasons behind the disaster and perhaps even know more about Mordremoth and maybe even have prevented the incident with the corrupted Sylvari at Verdant Brink.

However Braham, in his angered state with the casualties and destruction in LA decided to take execution into his own hands before consulting anyone else. Ruining any opportunity of learning anything as well as injuring both himself and Majory in the process.

He doesn’t think and his emotions get the better of him, this has almost always been the case. So this kind of attitude doesn’t surprise me. It’s only just become more apparent since the death of his mother.
He’s going to continue doing so until he learns to grow up, or find his actions cause a grievous mistake he will forever regret.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Perhaps this is part of the problem. Because of our lack of story choices and our inability to intervene in situations where you can see disaster written on the walls, it creates this sense that you’re at the mercy of the plot, whether it ends up being good or bad. In this case, it seems almost certain that Braham is about to commit his entire race to a disaster on what could possibly be a genocidal scale, all because he’s acting in a manner that seems childishly irresponsible.

Meanwhile, we’ll have to sit on the sidelines and watch it unfold, powerless to do anything unless the writers write our own character into a position where they can bash Braham over the head with an oversized cup of wake the hell up, because that’s just the nature of the story. That’s what irks me the most. Still, I’m hoping it doesn’t get to that and I’m hoping the writers do a good job of redeeming the situation somehow.

I think you nailed the problem on the head – the whole scenario feels so out of character for how I imagine a commander in charge of keeping the dragon-pocalypse at bay would act. With so much at stake, you don’t just let a guy free to pull off his incredibly stupid plan that he’ll most definitely regret later, and you especially don’t aid him in getting that crucial last component he needs for said incredibly stupid plan.

That was very jarring and I feel like slapping every character involved in the story for allowing it to happen as it did. If this was a book I was reading, this is the point where I’d chuck it at the wall because the plot contrivance is making everyone act dumb (and out of character in the case of the commander) and its annoying.

Opc.4718:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Perhaps this is part of the problem. Because of our lack of story choices and our inability to intervene in situations where you can see disaster written on the walls, it creates this sense that you’re at the mercy of the plot, whether it ends up being good or bad. In this case, it seems almost certain that Braham is about to commit his entire race to a disaster on what could possibly be a genocidal scale, all because he’s acting in a manner that seems childishly irresponsible.

Meanwhile, we’ll have to sit on the sidelines and watch it unfold, powerless to do anything unless the writers write our own character into a position where they can bash Braham over the head with an oversized cup of wake the hell up, because that’s just the nature of the story. That’s what irks me the most. Still, I’m hoping it doesn’t get to that and I’m hoping the writers do a good job of redeeming the situation somehow.

I think you nailed the problem on the head – the whole scenario feels so out of character for how I imagine a commander in charge of keeping the dragon-pocalypse at bay would act. With so much at stake, you don’t just let a guy free to pull off his incredibly stupid plan that he’ll most definitely regret later, and you especially don’t aid him in getting that crucial last component he needs for said incredibly stupid plan.

That was very jarring and I feel like slapping every character involved in the story for allowing it to happen as it did. If this was a book I was reading, this is the point where I’d chuck it at the wall because the plot contrivance is making everyone act dumb (and out of character in the case of the commander) and its annoying.

Hahaha! I know exactly how you feel. X’D

Talonblaze.3175:

He’s going to continue doing so until he learns to grow up, or find his actions cause a grievous mistake he will forever regret.

I fear the next grievous mistake is going to result in a very high body count. At this point, the commander should be doing an intervention, not let him bumble his way onwards to disaster. If it means losing him as a friend so be it, there’s 2 dragons and the rest of the world to worry about first.

Braham is acting in character for a headstrong Norn who is grieving for lost parent. He has had poor development up to this point and to me, this makes him more interesting. Believing in the Legend of the Tooth and charging forth to defeat Jormag is more in keeping with how the Norns should be than relying on science and tech from other races.

I think the issue is that ppl look at Braham’s reaction from a human perspective when he is from a different culture. Frankly, my Norn would gladly take up the Hunt and join him in Glory!

Randulf.7614:

Braham is acting in character for a headstrong Norn who is grieving for lost parent. He has had poor development up to this point and to me, this makes him more interesting. Believing in the Legend of the Tooth and charging forth to defeat Jormag is more in keeping with how the Norns should be than relying on science and tech from other races.

I think the issue is that ppl look at Braham’s reaction from a human perspective when he is from a different culture. Frankly, my Norn would gladly take up the Hunt and join him in Glory!

Yes Braham is acting somewhat in character and I can understand his actions, even if its absolutely irresponsible on his part and makes me lose all respect for him. But as I mentioned above, you’re the commander in charge of making sure the world doesn’t end. Braham’s course of action endangers this AND the lives of a lot of norns who really don’t need to be needlessly sacrificed. It should be your responsibility to stop him, but the commander never does.

This isn’t a human perspective, this is the cold rational perspective of a competent leader with bigger responsibilities than their own desires. As the commander, we’ve proven to be pretty competent so far but this episode has shown a huge lapse in our judgement which is completely out of character.

If , as a Norn commander, you decide to follow Braham’s path, you’d also be chucking all your responsibilities out the window and you’d be unfit to be commander. You’ve also likely just doomed the entire world, or at minimum, a lot of lives that didn’t need to be lost. As the story has been setup so far though, our identity as commander of the pact supersedes any original racial identity, so this would be completely out of character too.

Yes but we no longer have the same level of authority since we are Commander in title only and work outside of The Pact. Braham is neither part of the Pact or our Guild.

I’m not seeing where we have acted out of character – we are a Guild leader now working independently. Realistically the only person a Norn will truly listen to is Knut and it would be more our responsbility to convince him of our plan and direction so as to discourage more lives lost. If Braham wants to charge off and get himself killed in the name of revenge and glory…so be it. It is def not our place to interfere in that.

On a side not concerning our responsibilities, I’m still not entirely convinced that we are acting responsibly in allowing Taimi exclusive access to Dragon research which would be benefit all of Tyria, when we have 3 Orders which we should be trusting in a lot more with that info.

Randulf.7614:

On a side not concerning our responsibilities, I’m still not entirely convinced that we are acting responsibly in allowing Taimi exclusive access to Dragon research which would be benefit all of Tyria, when we have 3 Orders which we should be trusting in a lot more with that info.

Actually, I think it is the most responsible thing to do. Entrusting all 3 orders with that information could lead to a dissaster.

You have to remember that since absorbing Zhaitan’s death magic, the other elder dragons can now resurrect or corrupt other life in a similar manner to Zhaitan. If you’ll recall, part of the advantage of doing that was that the elder dragon was privy to all the memories and information that the said deceased or cloned individual was knowledgeable about in life.

In other words, leaking your plan on how to defeat the dragons to more people, where many of those people could subsequently die and be corrupted by the dragons and the plan subsequently learned, seems very counter productive. And obviously the more that know, the higher the risk of that happening is. If anything, the irresponsible thing our character did was giving that information to Braham, who is not in his right mind and seems all to eager to now march to death’s door.

Randulf.7614:

Yes but we no longer have the same level of authority since we are Commander in title only and work outside of The Pact. Braham is neither part of the Pact or our Guild.

I’m not seeing where we have acted out of character – we are a Guild leader now working independently. Realistically the only person a Norn will truly listen to is Knut and it would be more our responsbility to convince him of our plan and direction so as to discourage more lives lost. If Braham wants to charge off and get himself killed in the name of revenge and glory…so be it. It is def not our place to interfere in that.

On a side not concerning our responsibilities, I’m still not entirely convinced that we are acting responsibly in allowing Taimi exclusive access to Dragon research which would be benefit all of Tyria, when we have 3 Orders which we should be trusting in a lot more with that info.

Ignoring titles and formality, we are pretty much the only person powerful and connected enough in universe to be challenging dragons. That makes it our responsibility to do the right thing if we don’t want the world to end.

As it is, Braham wants to call a crusade against Jormag and lead a Norn army to slay it. The plan proposed by the commander is to pitch the dragons against each other, where there will be zero lives lost as they destroy each other. At best, Braham’s plan will result in a LOT of Norns being killed, at worst, it ruins the commander’s plan by distracting Jormag at a critical time, Jormag doesn’t get killed, and both dragons proceed to destroy the world before they annihilate each other. In between the two extremes, a bunch of norns get killed and Jormag is also killed, but we’re left to assault Primoridus on our own at the cost of countless pact solider lives.

Clearly, Braham being allowed to proceed with what he wants to do is in no one’s best interest except his, and it’s going to affect a lot more people than just him, so it falls to us to stop him because we’re in the best position to do so. We’d simply not help him retrieve the scroll, and judging by the fact that braham and rox combined do pretty much zero dps, they’d never get through the cave alive.

I believe the reason why Taimi doesn’t share her research is because of simple bureaucratic red tape. Phlunt has already been attempting to hijack her research and he has the legal right to do so because she’s an underaged progeny and he’s a Councillor. Phlunt is also Inquest however, and you can bet the research he acquires wont be shared to anyone except to further the inquest’s interests. They aren’t known for being particularly magnanimous or caring about the lives of anyone except themselves. If it becomes known that Taimi has been undertaking further unsupervised research, you can bet everything would be confiscated and put into incompetent, indifferent or malicious hands. I doubt the pact can protect Taimi or her research if that’s what Phlunt chooses to do. As it is, all the research is going directly to us, the person best positioned to take down dragons and cares enough to do so, so that’s a win all around.

Funny, a friend and I had more or less this conversation last night after finishing the story.

Neither of us expected him to be a shiny example of caution or intelligence, but we were both struck by his attitude towards Rox. Here she’s tracked down his mother’s wolf, fought her way out of the jungle with Garm to bring him to Hoelbrak, then when Braham’s not there she rests a bit, makes sure Garm is tended to, and as soon as they’re able she’s back out there in the snow tracking him down. She sticks by him through everything.

And after all that, he seemed to give zero bothers when she was turned into a charrsicle in front of him, because he acted without thinking again. And he doesn’t even apologise. Him being a hothead wasn’t out of character; but him not even saying “Sorry, Rox” was, imo.

In all my years in GW, I never thought of Norn as being egotistical but that’s the best description I can think of for Braham right now. Jormag is another of “his” responsibilities. He doesn’t need or want anyone’s help if they aren’t going to blindly agree with his way of doing things, it seems, and he’ll sacrifice the best friend he has to do it his way.

I’m sure Eir is super proud of him right now. -_-

I have a LOT of issues with Rytlock but I really want him to come back for the next episode because unless Knut manages to literally knock some sense into Braham, I don’t know anyone else better suited to do that. Let Braham mouth off at Rytlock about Destiny’s Edge. Maybe when he wakes up a few days later after that beatdown, he’ll remember who his mother was and what she stood for. Because honestly? I’m going to be really irritated if we have to go through the same crap with this new batch as Destiny’s Edge went through, with one selfish, deluded idiot running off and dooming others.

He is the essence of Desteny’s Edge – at least one that I remember in LA on Trader’s Forum. OR Robin from Batman and Robin.

I have a feeling this entire “Dragon’s Watch” is going to be a total disaster.

So far we only have 3 members, only 2 of which are actually acting like it. The other ones are either AWOL, forced doing something else or being complete ***holes toward us.
Let’s go through the roster:
Taimi – Currently the only one that actually acts like a member of Dragon’s Watch.
Rytlock – Also did really well but is currently under arrest.
Rox – Currently has to make sure Braham doesn’t end up getting himself killed.
Kasmeer – Currently the most useless of the bunch, haven’t seen her once this season.
Marjory – Basically gave you the middle finger and left with Lazarus.
Braham – Currently the single greatest ***hole in the game, would not want him in Dragon’s Watch even if all of Tyria depended on it.

When this whole “Dragon’s Watch” thing was first announced I was really looking forward to it. I thought it would be like Season 2 and HoT, where we as an entire group went on to do missions. But apparantly all of a sudden each member either hates me, has other things to do, or just doesn’t care (except Taimi). Great going so far…

I agree with OP, I don’t like the direction his character development is heading. 0

I wouldn’t mind scrapping the entire party, to be honest.

Except for Taimi, I continuously find myself not giving a single -meow- about any of them.

They’re bland, boring, and I roll my eyes at almost every line of dialogue. They just do not hold a candle to Destiny’s Edge from our Personal Stories in GW2.

-edit- To clarify, I mean that Destiny’s Edge actually felt like veteran war heroes. Their names carried weight. Right now, it feels I’m parading around the Maguuma Jungle with a band of teenagers on tethered backpacks playing babysitter

Dude really didn’t know his mother and she basically ignored him and all of a sudden she dies and he goes all Rambo over emotional pain from someone he barely even knows?

Yeah his character development is completely messed up and I really don’t care given I missed his introduction and only know him and his mother really hasn’t done anything due to HoT.

If anything Majory should lead the Norn she lost someone she actually grew up with and knew hence why she hates me and my race since I’m Sylvari. Braham on the other hand is just shoehorned due to poor writing.

Heck the story would make more sense if Braham died and his mother grieving over lost time and basically abandoning her son redirects her own anger at the dragons since it was fighting the Dragons in the first place that pulled her away from raising her son.

Doam.8305:

Heck the story would make more sense if Braham died and his mother grieving over lost time and basically abandoning her son redirects her own anger at the dragons since it was fighting the Dragons in the first place that pulled her away from raising her son.

It really does feel that Eir was killed off for no other reason than to just say “Hey guys look at Braham now. feel for him. FEEL FOR HIM!!”

Still makes me furious.

finished the episode today,
yeah… braham just wouldn’t stop being a whiny little so-and-so!
did Majory turn into a tantrum teen when her sister was killed?
did Zojja turn into a tantrum teen when Snaff was killed?
did I turn into a tantrum teen when Warmaster Forgal was killed?

its WAR! there are plenty of dead!

My problem with braham is he has batman syndrome.

He went from a loveable fool, to a dark brooding vengeance machine because his parents are dead.

It’s equal parts bad writing and bad voice acting. That combination make me dislike the direction of the character from a narrative standpoint.

I guess Destiny’s Edge never wore its name better than now

Braham felt ignored by Eir. Once he resolved his feelings for her he gets to see her die and was powerless to stop it. His kill them all, kill them again and kill them one more time just to be sure, is now his mindset. He was never the sharpest icicle on the roof.

Logan was just hot for his barefoot Queen, chose her when she was in danger over his guild and has been paying that price ever since. Most of all, getting friend zoned.

Braham is now a crude weapon you point at the elder dragons. It’ll probably not end well for him.

My guess is he ends up like the brother of Jora (Svanir) 250 years before. Hes an easy target for Jormag now with his anger issues.

Well, first off I should say that Braham is annoying at the moment but we should wait and see where it goes. I think his storyline is just really beginning and hopefully it doesn’t go some cliche’ direction with a “fall & redemption” or a “turned to the dark side” kind of route. The primary point though is to congratulate everyone on a rational well behaved thread. I gotta say every time I thought someone was about to get snippy or heated up, it didn’t happen. This is how discussion on the internet should go. Bravo. Now I’m gonna jump back to Facebook where I’ve probably been told to go kitten myself 20 times for stating that I support responsible gun ownership.

First time since his introduction, I’m all right with Braham. He’s been a useless meat shield since day 1 and was a flat, boring character with no character.

Now he’s angry, has some angst, is showing initiative, and has a reason for it besides “thing is happening so I need to do it”. Is the reason and his acting cliche or typical? You bet. But for the first time, he has conflict, a developing arc, motivation, and character.

It’s not the best writing, but it’s now getting interesting with characters and their interactions between each other due to this conflict.

particlepinata.9865:

My guess is he ends up like the brother of Jora (Svanir) 250 years before. Hes an easy target for Jormag now with his anger issues.

It wouldn’t surprise me if he’s the “final boss” for the LS, and it would be one hell of a lovely punch in his face…bonus points if Rox puts him out of his mercy.

Braham may actually be becoming the new Eir. Eir started out the story of “Edge of Destiny” by bringing in a disastrous attack of icebrood. I think the direction the devs are headed is by having Braham responsible for his own disaster and then to look back at how his mother recovered.

I am hopeful it’s a bit more like Caithe and that his actions are partly due to Jormag whispering to him, because in the latest episode he became a lot less likable.

At least the dragon watch members are as boring and uninspired as the name itself… Gotta keep the standards on the same level.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

I have a feeling this entire “Dragon’s Watch” is going to be a total disaster.

So far we only have 3 members, only 2 of which are actually acting like it. The other ones are either AWOL, forced doing something else or being complete ***holes toward us.
Let’s go through the roster:
Taimi – Currently the only one that actually acts like a member of Dragon’s Watch.
Rytlock – Also did really well but is currently under arrest.
Rox – Currently has to make sure Braham doesn’t end up getting himself killed.
Kasmeer – Currently the most useless of the bunch, haven’t seen her once this season.
Marjory – Basically gave you the middle finger and left with Lazarus.
Braham – Currently the single greatest ***hole in the game, would not want him in Dragon’s Watch even if all of Tyria depended on it.

When this whole “Dragon’s Watch” thing was first announced I was really looking forward to it. I thought it would be like Season 2 and HoT, where we as an entire group went on to do missions. But apparantly all of a sudden each member either hates me, has other things to do, or just doesn’t care (except Taimi). Great going so far…

Yeah, I agree. Taimi actually feels like the only useful character in Dragon’s Watch right now. While there are other cool characters like Rytlock and possibly Canach if he eventually joins, they seem to have their own problems and agendas to deal with right at the moment. Taimi seems to be the only one who, like yourself, is actively addressing the dragon problem head on and working towards solution as part of your guild.

I do kinda wish the writers would give the other characters the same attention as they have to Taimi. She seems to be the most well-rounded and developed of the lot, which is ironic considering she’s also the youngest and most inexperienced (though certainly not the least intelligent).

So far the only members in the guild I actually like are myself and Taimi. Kasmeer and Rox haven’t had enough dialogue to really form an opinion on in this episode. I really hope they don’t get angsty and blatantly disrespectful for no reason and wander off. I still haven’t gotten over Marjories quick transition from “You should be our leader! I’ll follow you!” to “You can’t tell me what to do even though I specifically nominated you to do exactly that! You’re not my real dad!”

To be honest, despite the premise of the thread, I’d say that Braham is worse than Logan ever was.

Logan’s choice to leave was controversial, but understandable. While it’s easy to come away from Edge of Destiny that his motivation was purely lovesick puppy syndrome, Kasmeer and Marjory discuss it afterwards, with Kasmeer saying “I don’t know what we’d do without her.” As far as most people know, the best case scenario for Kryta if Jennah dies is a smooth transition of power to Caudecus… and the worst case scenario is a political collapse leading to civil war.

Logan had a choice between sticking with his team to fight a general threat to all races, or leaving to fight against a specific threat to his queen and therefore his nation (who, yes, he happened to have the hots for… the queen, that is). I know a lot of people think he made the wrong call, but we really can’t say what would have happened if he hadn’t gone back, and there were valid reasons for him to go back.

Braham, though? He wants to lead his race into a suicidal charge to avenge his mother who was killed by a different dragon, when he’s been told – but refuses to listen – that there’s another plan in the making. One can make a reasoned argument for Logan having made the right, or least bad, or at least not indisputably wrong choice under the circumstances. However, there’s no reasoned justification for not at least giving an alternative plan that might achieve the objective with significantly less loss of life a chance to work before going on a headlong charge. Braham claims that he’s doing it because the longer Jormag lives, the more people are going to get killed… however, as the Pact has learned, going off half-kittened can get a lot more people killed than holding the line and doing your research.

One thought that struck me is that a possible reason for the Commander being a bit of a limp fish to Braham is that the Commander is absolutely flabbergasted that Braham is behaving that way in the first place. Braham’s obviously had some time spoiling for a fight with the PC, while at the end of HoT, Braham was grieving for his mother and eager to go after Jormag next, but showed no signs of insubordination. I think most people would find it hard to make much headway in an argument if they arrive to help a friend and said friend, completely out of the blue, starts verbally tearing into them, with lines that were possibly planned and rehearsed in advance. Particularly if this is also happening in a dangerous environment when you’re also having to watch out for dangers while your (former?) friend is yelling at you.

So we might see something a bit more decisive from the Commander once the Commander has had an opportunity to process what’s happened. Of course, by then it might be too late.

Another consideration is that while Braham was always a bit headstrong, it is a marked shift from ‘grieving but still a team player’ at the end of HoT to what we just saw. Now, it’s possible that it’s just a natural progression into the full anger stage of grief, but one does wonder if his new attitude is entirely natural, or whether he’s being influenced. The domain of Mind is still unaccounted for, after all: Jormag not having assimilated much from Death and Plants might be because he was much more interested in grabbing something else. Like the ability to influence the norn into making a suicidal charge so he can corrupt a lot of them.

draxynnic.3719:

To be honest, despite the premise of the thread, I’d say that Braham is worse than Logan ever was.

Logan’s choice to leave was controversial, but understandable. While it’s easy to come away from Edge of Destiny that his motivation was purely lovesick puppy syndrome, Kasmeer and Marjory discuss it afterwards, with Kasmeer saying “I don’t know what we’d do without her.” As far as most people know, the best case scenario for Kryta if Jennah dies is a smooth transition of power to Caudecus… and the worst case scenario is a political collapse leading to civil war…

I do agree with what you’re saying, and I understand the premise that Logan’s choice itself is in some ways understandable, but for me the reason I believe Logan is really disliked by many players is not his “choice” so much as the way he is portrayed as a character.

Perhaps he did make a decision he felt was best for Kryta and its people, but the problem is that the writers have not done a great job of expressing that ideal in his character as it is currently portrayed in game. Instead of coming across as a man wrought with the guilt or burden of difficult decisions, who had to weigh the good of his people vs the good of his friends and guild, we see someone who comes across as whiny and childish.

This was highlighted even by another character, Countess Anise, who commented that Logan overreacted when she used an illusion to make a Clockwork Knight look like Rytlock during the first Queen’s Jubilee event (if I recall, she even told him to “stop being such a baby”). It makes it hard for us to believe his intentions were selfless and motivated by a noble goal, because his behavior makes him seem much more selfish, temperamental and irresponsible, especially for someone who should be the thoughtful, level-headed captain of the Seraph.

This is what I was alluding to when I spoke about Braham becoming the next Logan. It’s not to say he’s literally becoming like Logan as a character, but rather that he’s beginning to be portrayed in a way that’s very unlikable. This is a trap I often see writers fall into, where they want to convey a certain theme in a character, like love or vengeance, and perhaps even want us to sympathize with them and understand them, but they instead end up making them very unpleasant and cringe-worthy just because they haven’t written it well. You can have two of the exact same types of characters written by two different writers, and the result can be like night and day. Even if both are written with the same theme or intention in mind, how they are portrayed in the end can make or break them, or make you empathize with them or hate them.

Squee.7829:

So far the only members in the guild I actually like are myself and Taimi. Kasmeer and Rox haven’t had enough dialogue to really form an opinion on in this episode. I really hope they don’t get angsty and blatantly disrespectful for no reason and wander off. I still haven’t gotten over Marjories quick transition from “You should be our leader! I’ll follow you!” to “You can’t tell me what to do even though I specifically nominated you to do exactly that! You’re not my real dad!”

I think anet made a big mistake telling rox’ story. Many people don’t know a lot about her and many things happened during LS1 which we can’t repeat. She would have potential for a good character (and also has a sad past.. Is that like a requirement to join the dragon watch?)

Well… Braham sure was a major kittenhole in the last episode but I must confess I don’t really mind. At least I now have an excuse for (having been) disliking him (for a long time).

As for Dragon’s Watch, let’s rename it to Broken Watch.

Let’s just name it Taimi and (insert screen name) Dragon Investigation Team. They’re the only 2 members who seem to be doing anything useful, so let’s just make it like a buddy cop t.v. drama thing. The others don’t really need to be around. Maybe recurring side characters.

ANet presents… Taimi and Poobah!

I didn’t really feel like they did a good job connecting the Braham that we saw at the end of HoT with the Braham that we saw in LS3. He was set on revenge before, maybe a little rash, but not bitter or angry at anyone other than Mordremoth and Faolain.

I’m not saying it’s implausible — before he had revenge against Mordremoth to focus on, but now he’s still grieving and the anger is still there, and it just gets redirected at everyone around him (and Jormag). But it’s still a little bit jarring, since all of those personality changes happened off-screen.

Braham has gone completely off the rails into self-absorbed obnoxiousness.

To put this into context, he’s 18 or so and acts his age.

I really hope that someone knocks the sense into him, so hard that loses some teeth. His recklessness and imbalance WILL cause many to die. I wonder if Kaz can be asked to steal the bow from him….

One way to resolve it from a story perspective is to kill off a bunch of Norn that go with Braham and corrupt him during his battle with Jormag, turning him into a large, prominent enemy for the player.

I wasn’t overly fond of Braham to begin with but now I full on detest him. This isn’t just grieving, this is being selfish, nasty, disrespectful and irresponsible. He may be Norn, but the first Norn I knew was Jora and she knew when to seek help and remained respectful despite the hell she was going through. Not Braham. He crossed the line several times with the way he addressed the Commander, even going so far as to say someone who orchestrated the fight against two dragons wouldn’t be welcomed by Eir into Destiny’s Edge. That can’t be fixed by any sorry that may follow later. I think we’re meant to temporarily dislike him until he comes around but I don’t want him in Dragon’s Watch anymore. What also really stung is that Rox didn’t say anything to defend the Commander. Instead of telling Braham he was out of line, she just stood there and when he told her to follow, she just did. As for the Commander, at first keeping calm out of respect for what Braham is going through, fine, but not becoming angry at these insults? Not stopping him from endangering so many lives? That’s just not realistic. “He certainly doesn’t want to be around me right now.”? Who cares! Braham can leave and take Rox (Braham is bae), Marjory (nobody tells me what to do) and Kasmeer (who?) with him. Taimi, Canach and Rytlock I like.