Guild Wars 2

UncrushablePigeon.8760:

I wasn’t overly fond of Braham to begin with but now I full on detest him. This isn’t just grieving, this is being selfish, nasty, disrespectful and irresponsible. He may be Norn, but the first Norn I knew was Jora and she knew when to seek help and remained respectful despite the hell she was going through. Not Braham. He crossed the line several times with the way he addressed the Commander, even going so far as to say someone who orchestrated the fight against two dragons wouldn’t be welcomed by Eir into Destiny’s Edge. That can’t be fixed by any sorry that may follow later. I think we’re meant to temporarily dislike him until he comes around but I don’t want him in Dragon’s Watch anymore. What also really stung is that Rox didn’t say anything to defend the Commander. Instead of telling Braham he was out of line, she just stood there and when he told her to follow, she just did. As for the Commander, at first keeping calm out of respect for what Braham is going through, fine, but not becoming angry at these insults? Not stopping him from endangering so many lives? That’s just not realistic. “He certainly doesn’t want to be around me right now.”? Who cares! Braham can leave and take Rox (Braham is bae), Marjory (nobody tells me what to do) and Kasmeer (who?) with him. Taimi, Canach and Rytlock I like.

I know right. What really annoyed me the most was that the Commander didn’t retort anything he said. I certainly would have!

“Try losing your mother!”
As a human with the ‘lost parents’ background I would’ve said “I did lose her… to the white mantle. Which you dismissed as ‘lol just human crap’”

“My mother wouldn’t want you in Destiny’s Edge!”
How would you know? You barely even knew her, there are things in my fridge older than your relationship with her.

“The pact you commanded!”
Oh so you think the Pact’s defeat, and by extension your mother’s death, is my fault? Trahearne was the one who led that attack, he was the one who messed up and I had to deal with the aftermath. Seriously this mission just should’ve ended like this:

The character development of our PC is a little disappointing. I get trying to make him/her a kind of "blank slate, or generally featureless personality so you’re more likely to relate or insert yourself into the story easier, but our PC is just completely passive. This is a terrible trait for a leader to have. Someone who dedicates their life to stopping dragons and saving the world should definitely not be ok with Braham storming off to probably lead an army of Norn to their deaths. This is the time the PC would have put their foot down and stopped Braham. They were fine with talking back to Lazarus the super-nuke absorbing demi-god, but afraid to hurt some little emo prick’s feelings? And now tons of people will die because of it.

And as it was mentioned above, there were plenty of opportunities to show that Braham was patently wrong on almost everything he said. You were not the leader of the pact. You were not responsible for the subsequent collapse of the pact. And for a lot of human characters, you DO know what it’s like to lose your mother. And father. And for others, your sister. But I get it, they dropped the relevance of the personal story not long after launch, so that might have been hard to work in.

And what his mother would have not wanted was for her son to grow up to be such a sniveling little punk and lead a significant number of her people to icy death. But what does he know? Certainly not his mother.

Squee.7829:

The character development of our PC is a little disappointing. I get trying to make him/her a kind of "blank slate, or generally featureless personality so you’re more likely to relate or insert yourself into the story easier, but our PC is just completely passive. This is a terrible trait for a leader to have….

The odd part about this is that the writers seemed more than happy to have our character take a much sterner stance against Caith for stealing Aurene’s egg, to the point of even threatening to kill her if she so much as steps out of line, but when it comes to Braham mouthing off at us and preparing to lead his entire race to its genocide, in addition to potentially messing up a perfectly good plan for dealing with two elder dragons at once, we’re overly passive in our response.

So, I’d write this off to inconsistency as far as our PC is concerned. Our character’s reaction to Caith could almost be seen as heavy handed, though understandable given the stakes at hand (the fate of the entire world, to put it plainly), but with Braham it goes to the opposite extreme and seems very underwhelming. Still, perhaps this will be developed further and we’ll see our character take a more sterner stance, but hopefully things won’t go completely belly up before that happens.

The greatest tragedies that occur in the world happen because people are too reactive instead of being proactive. Let’s hope our PC chooses to adopt the latter stance, and not the former.

Braham is becoming the next Zojja.

She/He blamed the squad leader for the loss of her master/his mother.
She’s/He’s doing stuff relating to her master/his mother and their respective race.

Braham is, I think, much more like Rytlock than Logan or Zojja. Both are very direct sorts, and Braham has even shown his appreciation for this. (“I like the way Tribunes think.”)

The poster who suggested that Rytlock may be the only one who can straighten Braham out may be right. Rytlock is enough older and wiser to know when direct solo action is not the best way to go. Rytlock knows that he functions better in a group that serves to balance him, which is probably why he was so quick to come up with the suggestion to form a new guild.

For example, while Rytlock favored getting on Eir’s trail immediately at the start of HoT, he supported the Commander’s decision not to let Braham go charging off into an unknown jungle by himself. He accepted the Commander’s wish to befriend the itzel in order to gain information and support, though he placed little value on it himself. So he offered a compromise that allowed him and Braham to follow their impulse for direct action without being reckless. That should have been a lesson for Braham right there, especially after the Commander had to dress him down earlier for running off ahead of the team. But Braham was having a bad case of tunnel vision and learned nothing, apparently.

Btaham, unfortunately, seems to think he’s honoring and preserving his mother’s legacy by his actions. He said the Commander had a funny way of showing respect, but Braham himself fails to understand his mother and has a funny way of honoring her legacy.

Eir understood the value of group action (unusual in a norn) after seeing so many promising young norn get turned into icebrood by reckless solo action against a champion of Jormag. She became a master strategist. She observed, gathered information, and planned a course of action. That’s how she, Snaff, and Zojja recruited Edge of Steel (Rytlock, Logan, and Caithe) to form the team that could complete the job against Jormag’s champion that she failed the first time because she overestimated her team’s strength. She learned from that mistake. Those are all qualities that Braham currently lacks and is now sneering at by showing his contempt for the Commander.

I have to agree with Gorgaan, though, that Braham does seem to have decided the Commander is at least partially at fault in Eir’s death.

I do disagree, however, with the view that the Pact collapsed. The Pact was torn from the sky and dashed to the ground with nothing but wreckage to work with. Yet they were so devoted and so well trained that they pulled together, made allies, defended Tarir, broke a path into the heart of Mordremoth’s domain, and overcame his last line of defense — his strongest fortifications and champions — to clear a path so the PC’s team could get to the dragon itself. Using nothing but scrap. That is NOT an organization that can be described as “collapsed”. (Though collapse may still happen depending on what REMF they choose as Marshal. General Soulkeeper, of all people, should know better than to support such an idea.)

(Trahearne was to blame for what happened, of course. His rash plan of attack on Mordy was nothing like the careful strategy he followed against Zhaitan. He had his stated reasons for this, but I have to wonder if Mordy wasn’t subtly influencing him the entire time, as he may have been influencing Caithe. Both too strong mentally to control directly, but perhaps vulnerable to attempts to color their perceptions on a deeper level and impel them to hasty action. Mordremoth may have been all ego, but he wasn’t witless, and I think he may have been subtle enough to do something like this. But where were the Pact’s overseers from the Orders — Wynette, Doern, and Efut — during all of this? Why weren’t they raising questions?)

This change seems to weird to me. I personally think someone is pulling the strings behind, causing Braham to obsess with taking down Jormag, “alone”

draxynnic.3719:

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I pretty much agree with this line of thinking, but would like to add a few things. I do agree that Braham is worse than Logan at this point, and for me at least, I don’t think he’s redeemable.

I think Logan’s decision was ultimately between the one he loves versus those he cares about and mostly those he doesn’t know. There are those mind game questions about saving someone you love versus many people you don’t know, and that’s essentially what Logan had to do. The reason it’s so prominent is because it is actually a difficult decision. Obviously the logical and moral decision would be to save more lives, however when you are in love with someone, they are more important than anything else, including the lives of many to that person. That’s why even though we can all say Logan likely made the wrong decision (especially since Jennah herself saved the day), there is no way he could have known what sort of danger Jennah was in, and we can at least understand why his decision wasn’t inherently wrong. I won’t go into the whole politics of the situation because someone else already did, but it’s a good point to bring up. If Jennah DID die, the humans and charr would likely go back to war and be out of the fight against the dragons.

Furthermore, I do think Logan to some extent understands this. Jennah seems to be a bit remorseful over it, although she isn’t really at fault since she didn’t know what Logan was doing at the time she called for him. Logan’s defense is often saying, “You would have done the same.” I think he’s actually right in that regard. If Zojja had to leave to save Snaff with Jennah as the victim do you think she wouldn’t have? Zojja is incredibly smart, but she cared about and admired Snaff more than anybody. I think one reason Logan is so defensive about it is because he does in some ways understand that it may not have been the best decision, but he has to stand by it because otherwise Snaff died for nothing. I do think he would make the same decision again, but he does understand the other side, he just disagrees with it/feels differently.

Braham on the other hand, has no logical or understandable argument. His argument essentially boils down to wanting to kill the dragons ASAP before they kill more people, and he wants to accomplish this using a suicide mission that will pretty much annihilate his whole race. Okay, well if you think about that for 2 seconds his reasoning is non-existent and also stupid. There is no way to sympathize with this dude unless you are completely incapable of rationale thought because he is doing the opposite of his proposed goal. You can disagree with Logan and dislike his interactions with Jennah, but at least they make sense on some level. Braham’s actions are indefensible, regardless of his emotional state (which IMO is already unwarranted). This whole outburst paints him as someone who is 1. a completely and utter moron, 2. a disrespectful and ungrateful kitten (aren’t you one of the reasons he was even able to compromise with Eir?), and 3. somebody lacking in empathy. Again, there is no redeeming quality to his plan to counteract all of the negative aspects of this. His outburst is nonsensical and lore defying. He acts like he knew Eir more than the PC. He blames the PC for the Pact Mordremoth assault even though we were with him the whole time? He suddenly has no respect for Taimi or Rox. And all of this because his mother than he was close to for like a day died? He spent his whole life resenting her and suddenly she’s so important to him. Ugh, he’s just irredeemable for me at this point.

Sorry this got a bit ranty, but I really despise Braham now. The writers need to be careful what they do with him. Trahearne’s death was, let’s not kid ourselves, due to player backlash. Braham is on his deathbed right now. If the player base never forgives his character, it’s going to be near impossible to incorporate him into a satisfying story that doesn’t involve offing him. If they want to redeem him, they need to do it ASAP and it needs to be big. With the bull Caithe went through (who honestly had an understandable argument even though the PC just completely hated her for ages after that?) this is just extra mind-boggling.

I can forgive Braham being a jerk and an idiot, being rude to PC, etc. But I will never forgive him if he’ll lead Norn to Verdant Brink 2.0. And he will, obviously.
My favourite race will be completely annihilated because of a whiny boy who even can’t logically explain his actions. Eir died because of Trahearne’s reckless assault on elder dragon, so lets recklessly assault another elder dragon to throw away lifes of other mothers, fathers, siblings.
And I really dont understand Pact commander. In previous chapter he threatens demigodic Lazarus for almost no reason (I ever felt sorry for that mursaat for a moment). And now he is afraid to beat up the living kittens out of a unstable teen who wants to push a global norn self-destract button.

Something funny I found was after returning to Hoelbrak to see if the Fang changes in the world. Seeing it didn’t, I wondered if there was a dialogue about it, so I take to NPCs. Elder Ulf in particular
And he straight up says ‘I don’t think that chipping the fang actually means anything by itself’

So… yeah.

Braham himself? Yeah, I can get the grief thing, even if a bit of it feels forced. He’s always been kind of a completely brash idiot, but you think he might listen to the person who’s already killed off two dragons and has a plan so that no one else’s mother will die.
’People’s mothers are dying every minute Jormag lives so I’m gonna lead an army and get a lot more people killed to kill Jormag’

Like… I’m sorry, Jormag is active, but is he like, doing anything we’ve seen? Yeah the Icebrood are around, Svanir are around, but killing Jormag won’t stop them. Risen are still around, Mordrem are still around.

And as has already been noted, the last time that a bunch of dudes tried to cowboy up and kick in an Elder Dragon’s front door, Verdant Brink happened. And they had a bunch of airships and firepower, not a battalion of alcoholics.

Rockin Twilight Sparkle.2615:

not a battalion of alcoholics.

lol

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Rockin Twilight Sparkle.2615:

not a battalion of alcoholics.

lol

Hey, low hanging fruit but sometimes you just gotta go for it.

Oh! And Braham brings up Snaff like he actually gives a kitten about him, while actively engaging in the exact kind of behaviour that got Snaff killed in the first place.

In retrospect? I wish ‘The Unbroken’ had won the poll for the name of the guild, because now it would be funny.

Rockin Twilight Sparkle.2615:

Oh! And Braham brings up Snaff like he actually gives a kitten about him, while actively engaging in the exact kind of behaviour that got Snaff killed in the first place.

In retrospect? I wish ‘The Unbroken’ had won the poll for the name of the guild, because now it would be funny.

He brought up alot of stuff, just to throw it at us. He doesn’t actually care one bit what OTHER people have lost. Given a few minutes prior he wrote the human white mantle stuff as “just human crap”.

Braham also has no idea how many people the Commander has lost that they knew, especially that was rather close to him. ALL of which the Commander has spent just as, if not more time getting to know than Braham and Eir.

The first and foremost being our Mentor who died on Claw Island.
Tactician Bern, Tegwyn, Trahearne are also unavoidables.
Heck, you even spend more time with Eir.
Those are just the ones everyone has to go through.

Then we get into personal story.
Charr, right off the hop we lose almost an entire warband. (Which pretty much is family.) Then with the added possibility of having to kill one’s father or already be dead.
Humans also have quite the tragic ones with murdered parents or the possibility of having a dear friend literally being dumped dead half and half in a city as an example.

Needless to say, more than likely the Commander has gone through ALOT of kitten and Braham doesn’t even ask, nor does he care even if you listed off all the people who died. That’s his current mentality and it’s rather unacceptable.

He just used it as a weapon, for his own selfish needs and goals.

I know, right? Like… Braham, lemme tell you about my buddy who was slowly losing himself to Mordremoth and I had to shank him with his own godkitten sword.

Disrespecting Destiny’s Edge? I am the reason Destiny’s Edge got back together! One of the members SUPPORTS this new guild idea!
I really want Rytlock to come back and Braham to mouth off to him. Or hell, even bring in Logan so he can be like ‘dude no. You’re being me, don’t be me I was a tosser.’

edit:Swear filter gives me ideas. I want a GodKitten Sword now.

What i find a little sad about Braham is, because he is one of the most prominent Norn in-game, people assumes he represents the usual Norn. And yet, ANet has shown us a very different side of them multiple times :

This one is an ambiant dialogue in Bear’s Lodge in Hoelbrak

Shaman Ursel: Why have you come to Bear’s lodge, my friend?
Bann: I need Bear’s counsel, shaman. I face an enemy that I seem unable to defeat.
Shaman Ursel: I see. Will you tell everyone gathered about this enemy?
Bann: Yes, if it is Bear’s will.
Shaman Ursel: All within range, listen, for I suspect this brave hunter has a tale we should all hear.
Shaman Ursel: Tell us about this enemy that has you so defeated.
Bann: (clears throat) I was out in the Borealis Forest, not far from here, and I came across an enraged broodmother.
Bann: I tracked it for a while. I was in a dominant position, until it caught my scent and attacked.
Bann: When the fight was over, the broodmother and its offspring lay dead, scattered in the underbrush.
Shaman Ursel: But… you said that you could not defeat your foe.
Bann: It’s true. My enemy is not the broodmother or her ravenous kits.
Bann: My enemy is the wound I suffered during the fight. It can’t be healed. I can’t hunt. I can’t do anything.
Bann: I’m less than half what I was, and I don’t know how to overcome it.
Shaman Ursel: I understand your challenge, and Bear has a lesson that’ll give you comfort, if you’re ready to learn it.
Bann: I’m ready.
Shaman Ursel: Bear teaches us about the seasons. We have spring, winter, summer, and autumn.
Shaman Ursel: In the spring, the bears awaken, find mates, and form families. In summer, they teach their cubs to survive.
Shaman Ursel: In autumn, they hunt, and the forest belongs to them. In winter, THEY belong to the forest.
Shaman Ursel: In life, we also have seasons that we must respect. Your season has changed, but you’re no less part of the forest.
Bann: I think I understand.
Shaman Ursel: Don’t try to walk autumn’s path in winter. Bear has given you a new mantle to wear and new challenges to overcome.

And those three comes from Raven’s Lodge

Raven Shaman: Why have you come to Raven’s lodge only to lurk in shadow?
Marit Tonleig: I’m unworthy of Raven’s gaze. I passed on false information and, because of it, hunters died for no reason.
Raven Shaman: Did you bring a symbol of your shame?
Marit Tonleig: I brought three stones stained with the blood of those who were killed.
Raven Shaman: Good. Put two of them with Raven’s treasures, and keep the other to remind you always of your mistake.
Raven Shaman: You’re only unworthy in Raven’s eyes if you don’t learn from your missteps. Raven rewards the clever and sincere.

Raven Shaman: Hello. I’ve been waiting for you. Raven informed me you were coming.
Dievi Witmerk: I’m surprised that Raven would consider me worth mentioning.
Raven Shaman: You’re one of his chosen. Surely you know that by now.
Dievi Witmerk: I know I’m stronger of mind than of body and that I’ve been blessed with a seed of Raven’s sight.
Raven Shaman: You know yourself. Now, it’s time for you to know Raven. Your apprenticeship begins immediately.
Raven Shaman: First, entrust your most cherished possession to Raven. Later, you will learn to trust him with your life as well.

Roldar Halvvei: Shaman, I need Raven’s favor. My mother is losing her memories.
Raven Shaman: Raven’s favor must be earned. What deeds have you done recently that would please him?
Roldar Halvvei: I tracked vicious jotun back to their den. They had captured a handful of humans.
Roldar Halvvei: There were too many, so instead of attacking them, I injured several moas and used them as bait.
Roldar Halvvei: When the jotun went to attack the moas, I rescued the prisoners. And I took a horn from the den, for Raven.
Raven Shaman: Put the horn with Raven’s treasures, and I will tell Raven of your mother’s need.
_______________________

I really hope that some of those cultural traits will appear the next time we see Braham and the Norns, it would be great for this race to not be painted as the overgrown and stupid humans they sometimes appear to be…

Is there a Wolf Havroun around? Maybe the spirit of Eir could be summoned from the Mists to straighten the kid out. Because I think Eir would be shocked at the depths of Braham’s misunderstanding of her life’s work and legacy given that he’s doing exactly what Eir was trying to move norn society away from.

Yes, there is a Wolf Havroun. Well, the previous one died during the PS of the Norn character and his apprentice was in coma by then, but after the years spent in-game between those events and those of the LS3, I think she should have become a full Havroun.

There should also be a new Havroun for Bear, since the previous one died during the Orr campaign.

Just finished the current episode and I’m pretty amazed. Always thought ANet had fired the guy writing LS1, but it seems he is back. Once again, everyone around the PC (Taimi being the only exception) appears like a mindless kitten and the Commander doesn’t have the spine to whip the bunch of idiots into order. Way to go if you want to kill a bunch of Elder Dragons.

Valmir.4590:

What i find a little sad about Braham is, because he is one of the most prominent Norn in-game, people assumes he represents the usual Norn. And yet, ANet has shown us a very different side of them multiple times

What Braham does contradicts all the Wild Spirits virtues.
Wolf spirit is all about teamwork, but Braham doesn’t need friends or a team, he wants to kill Jormag alone (he actually says that, yep).
Raven prefers cunning plans and research. Can Braham understand how the scroll’s fire magic works? No. Is he planning to give it to Priory so they could figure it out? No. Has Braham any king of plan? Of course no. (he actually says that!)
Snow Leopard prefers a quite, stealth approach. Waiting for the right moment, striking in the softest spot. Well, it is the only strategy plausible enough, if all you have against the elder dragon is a kitten bow. But Braham can’t wait a few days, so who cares.
Even Bear spirit, like in the posts above, understands, that you should act according to your capabilities. The prime one is that you can’t kill a dragon alone. Braham couldn’t kill an icebrood minotaur even with the super firy bow. You can’t kill a dragon using a handfull of people. Desteny Edge tryed, and now Snuff and Glint are dead. Your nation can’t kill Jormag alone. Norn tried, and it got Owl spirit killed.
By the way, maybe Owl spirit virtues? Well, it faced Jormag and died horribly. I guess that is what Braham trying to do.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

UncrushablePigeon.8760:

I wasn’t overly fond of Braham to begin with but now I full on detest him. This isn’t just grieving, this is being selfish, nasty, disrespectful and irresponsible. He may be Norn, but the first Norn I knew was Jora and she knew when to seek help and remained respectful despite the hell she was going through. Not Braham. He crossed the line several times with the way he addressed the Commander, even going so far as to say someone who orchestrated the fight against two dragons wouldn’t be welcomed by Eir into Destiny’s Edge. That can’t be fixed by any sorry that may follow later. I think we’re meant to temporarily dislike him until he comes around but I don’t want him in Dragon’s Watch anymore. What also really stung is that Rox didn’t say anything to defend the Commander. Instead of telling Braham he was out of line, she just stood there and when he told her to follow, she just did. As for the Commander, at first keeping calm out of respect for what Braham is going through, fine, but not becoming angry at these insults? Not stopping him from endangering so many lives? That’s just not realistic. “He certainly doesn’t want to be around me right now.”? Who cares! Braham can leave and take Rox (Braham is bae), Marjory (nobody tells me what to do) and Kasmeer (who?) with him. Taimi, Canach and Rytlock I like.

I know right. What really annoyed me the most was that the Commander didn’t retort anything he said. I certainly would have!

“Try losing your mother!”
As a human with the ‘lost parents’ background I would’ve said “I did lose her… to the white mantle. Which you dismissed as ‘lol just human crap’”

“My mother wouldn’t want you in Destiny’s Edge!”
How would you know? You barely even knew her, there are things in my fridge older than your relationship with her.

“The pact you commanded!”
Oh so you think the Pact’s defeat, and by extension your mother’s death, is my fault? Trahearne was the one who led that attack, he was the one who messed up and I had to deal with the aftermath. Seriously this mission just should’ve ended like this:

Exactly. He acts like we never lost anyone. Hell, we lost our two best friends, Tybalt (or equivalent) who sacrificed himself (or herself) so we could escape Claw Island, and Treherne (sp?) who we had to kill with his own sword. Right.

so much hate for poor Braham. if anything I like him MORE now. I mean sure, he’s acting like a whiny teen. but not everyone reacts the same when grieving. also he has character. Im sick of everyone being so nice to the player. we need conflict to keep things interesting, and not only conflict with the enemy, but among ourselves too. i personally love it. Braham will probably redeem himself from this, but he feels like he has more substance now, even if he is dead wrong on mostly everything.

Were it up to me, Braham would’ve never left that cave alive (not because he hurt my feelings, but because, given the circumstances, his recklessness could doom all of Tyria).

coso.9173:

Braham will probably redeem himself from this, but he feels like he has more substance now, even if he is dead wrong on mostly everything.

No thanks. If his actions will lead to nornocide I personaly don’t want him to be redeemed. Deaths of the thouthands can’t be redeemed by “I’m sorry, boss” or even by “heroic” sacrifice. For me, this is the line. If Verdant Brink 2.0 happens, Braham’s legend should be put near Svanir’s, making his name a curse.

Ider.1276:

coso.9173:

Braham will probably redeem himself from this, but he feels like he has more substance now, even if he is dead wrong on mostly everything.

No thanks. If his actions will lead to nornocide I personaly don’t want him to be redeemed. Deaths of the thouthands can’t be redeemed by “I’m sorry, boss” or even by “heroic” sacrifice. For me, this is the line. If Verdant Brink 2.0 happens, Braham’s legend should be put near Svanir’s, making his name a curse.

Sadly, this.

If Braham actually had a plan, or even hinted at the beginning of a plan, it wouldn’t be so bad. “I’ll convince the Spirits to join the fight” would have sufficed, because he would have added tremendous power to his “forces” beyond what will probably mostly young and reckless Norns (with the odd old and bitter hunter willing to go and face Jormag no matter what).

But it isn’t what transpired in the cave. What happened was Braham saying “Screw plans and patience, I’m running at Jormag full speed, with as many hunters as I can muster and we’ll kill him”. No true plan, no reflection about how to reach the Dragon or survive lands so cold even a Svanir more than 80% Icebrood need an elixir to endure the cold. No idea where Jormag is in the blizzard, how to ensure that his forces get food and medicine supply lines, or how to approach Dragon unnoticed until the last moments.

Braham’s will lead a lot of Norn to their doom (and it won’t even be the first time Norns endure grievous losses in GW2, most of the named character who died during the Orr Campaign where Norns) and I really don’t see how ANet could redeem him after it. Or, if they make him succeed, it will just feel (to me that is) as a way to hasten the plot of the Elder Dragons demise, so the game could move on to other enemies and regions. And it would be really infuriating to miss the kill of Jormag when he is the dragon I’ve wanted to kill the most for years, now.

What I find sad is that Trahearne died when I felt he was a very compelling and sympathetic character, while Braham is becoming insufferable while I really liked him in the HoT and previous LS. I hope that if ANet truly wants to go down this road, as is its right, they’ll introduce a new iconic Norn character, which should be a lot better thought out than Braham, without being an Eir 2.0.

allire.3984:

Were it up to me, Braham would’ve never left that cave alive (not because he hurt my feelings, but because, given the circumstances, his recklessness could doom all of Tyria).

Honestly, I’m surprised I left the cave alive. I facepalmed so hard after listening to the dialogue that by all rights I should be in a coma with brain damage. XD

Actually, I played the instance with two friends as well. One I was talking to over Skype and he swore enough to make his loathing for Braham’s character development clear. The other could only type “WTF!” in the chat when we got to the end of the instance.

Kirukia.9120:

draxynnic.3719:

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I’m not convinced that Logan’s choice resulted in more loss of life than the alternative, actually.

(Discussion behind a spoiler since it’s somewhat off-topic)

[spoiler=Logan discussion]Kralkatorrik has been remarkably inactive since the Branding. We know from Orr after Zhaitan’s death that killing a dragon doesn’t instantly reverse their corruption or release their minions, so the Dragonbrand would still have been a problem after Kralkatorrik had died. It’s likely that Kralkatorrik’s death would have substantially reduced the danger posed by the Dragonbrand, but the Sentinels mostly seem to be keeping it fairly contained.

Conversely, consider if Logan hadn’t returned. People assume that because Jennah saved everyone she could have done so without Logan, but I don’t think that’s the case – Logan bought the time she needed to do that. If she’s died, then the people of Ebonhawke would have been butchered: while we don’t have any precise population figures, Ebonhawke is the second largest human city in Tyria, so we’d probably be looking at a loss of life comparable to Scarlet’s invasion of Lion’s Arch right there. The destruction of Ebonhawke would probably have lead to a de facto end of the war between humans and charr, but there also wouldn’t be the truce and quasi-alliance that we have now, which would make getting charr and humans to cooperate against the dragons more complicated. There’s also the possibility of a human civil war, leading to further deaths.

Now, if Jennah had been able to pull off the illusion without Logan, then Ebonhawke still remains… but we also don’t have the precedent of humans and charr fighting together against a common enemy. Up until that point, Jennah in EoD was as hawkish as any Seperatist is now: it was having the charr POWs fighting on her behalf that opened her eyes that a truce might be possible. So we’d likely still have the charr-human war going on… making human-charr co-operation against the dragons even more complicated than in the above case.

So we’ve got a best-case scenario where the charr-human war is still going on, and a worse-case where a small city is destroyed and a nation plunged into civil war… versus Kralkatorrik who’s been something of a damp squib thus far. I expect there will be casualties when the time to take it down comes, but as long as Kralkatorrik doesn’t take out a city before it goes down, Tyria’s probably come out ahead. Even if Kralkatorrik does take out a city, Tyria might still be ahead thanks to the charr-human truce.

Now, you could say that Logan didn’t know all that… and it’s a fair argument. However, Logan didn’t know that the fight against Kralkatorrik was going to be so close that his presence would have made the difference – the group may have still failed if he’d remained, or it might still have succeeded despite his leaving. There’s a line from Glint that indicates that she knows how it’s going to go, but without the benefit of hindsight you wouldn’t be able to tell if that is prophecy or simple pep-talk.[/spoiler]

In Braham’s case, though, the only way I can see his plan leading to less loss of life than the alternatives is if the alternatives fail and we ended up falling back on Braham’s plan anyway… and Braham’s plan succeeded. And even then, the difference in loss of life might be relatively small, while the potential for disaster through Braham’s plan is high.

Essentially, he’s doing the exact opposite of Logan. Logan prioritised his country over killing a dragon. Braham is prioritising killing a dragon over his people.

Valmir.4590:

What i find a little sad about Braham is, because he is one of the most prominent Norn in-game, people assumes he represents the usual Norn. And yet, ANet has shown us a very different side of them multiple times {snip}

Except that I think Braham does represent the usual norn. He just doesn’t represent the entirety of norn culture.

It’s the shamans who are atypical, and part of the selection process for shamans of all of the spirits (except Bunny…) is having a greater than average degree of wisdom than most norn, so that they can be in the position of guiding the other norn. Comparing a shaman to the typical norn would be like comparing a priest or teacher to a typical person – the typical norn looks up to the shamans, but they have a natural recklessness, which sometimes the shamans seek to temper.

I think the damage you speak of has already been done to some, certainly to me. I never cared much for the story to begin with, but this particular bit completely put me off this character to the point I’d rather not drag myself through the rest of this LS unless this annoying kitten brat is going to join his mama in the end.

Ider.1276:

coso.9173:

Braham will probably redeem himself from this, but he feels like he has more substance now, even if he is dead wrong on mostly everything.

No thanks. If his actions will lead to nornocide I personaly don’t want him to be redeemed. Deaths of the thouthands can’t be redeemed by “I’m sorry, boss” or even by “heroic” sacrifice. For me, this is the line. If Verdant Brink 2.0 happens, Braham’s legend should be put near Svanir’s, making his name a curse.

This is exactly my sentiment, too. I just hope Anet won’t resolve this problem by giving Braham some generic redemption plot that will force the Commander to forgive him and just carry on like nothing happened.

Valmir.4590:

Braham’s will lead a lot of Norn to their doom

And Baham would then blame us for the dead Norn. He blames us already for the death of Eir. ( not said but implied ). I mean back in HoT Braham wanted to rush into the Jungle to rescue Eir but got vetoed by the PC who wanted to get more Intel about the Jungle and make “Friends” with the Locals, which is closer to what Eir would have done than Brahams approach. But what Brahams doesn’t understand, is that the Fight against the Elder Dragons is not a Hunt, it is War and in a War you want as many Informations and Allies as possible to bring down your Foe.

So after the Death of Mordremoth, Braham had quite the Time to think about why Eir had to die and I would say, he came to the Conclusion " If we had done it my Way, she would have lived. kitten the Commander ", which he believed more and more.

He also wasn’t there at Eirs Funeral, where we honored her, which is weird. Perhaps this was a warning Sign?

Now we have a Norn who is extremely hostile towards us, in a completely unstable Condition, seeks Power ( which is the Dragon’s Path ) and now is in a Position where he can lead other Norn, at a Time where the last Thing he needs is to be in a Position where he is leading. To quote Trahearne " This won’t end well "

And yes, I do believe that Braham will blame us for the Disaster he is leading the Norn into and when he does there is one Thing that should be done for Tyria.

Y’all mentioned above that maybe Trahearne was influenced by Mordremoth, which led to the destruction of the pact

“Trahearne was to blame for what happened, of course. His rash plan of attack on Mordy was nothing like the careful strategy he followed against Zhaitan. He had his stated reasons for this, but I have to wonder if Mordy wasn’t subtly influencing him the entire time, as he may have been influencing Caithe.”

Mordremoth was the dragon of the Mind. Maybe with his death some of his Mind abilities went to Jormag. Maybe Braham is being influenced mentally by Jormag. He’s in the right area of the world and Norns are likely to become Sons of Svanir. He was out there all alone. A young adult Norn male who is grieving and angry about what happened. That’s likely the state of mind that’s easy for Jormag to influence and maybe that accounts for his sudden belligerence to his old comrades and his rash plan to charge in and attack a dragon.

you guys are talking like if Braham had already lead the Norn to their Doom. it has not happened yet and we dont know if it will ever happen. Slow down there. what is has done so far is just acting hot headed. that is all.

superveemon.6738:

This change seems to weird to me. I personally think someone is pulling the strings behind, causing Braham to obsess with taking down Jormag, “alone”

As I was playing through this episode for the first time I found myself wondering whether Braham was suffering the kind of influence from Jormag that the Sylvari experienced with Mordremoth. Perhaps the growth of the Sons of Svanir cult has more to do with direct draconic influence than mere poor judgment and egotism.

Other than that, the problem with Braham isn’t so much what he does and says in this episode as it is in how abrupt and unheralded his change of attitude is. He’s always been headstrong and hot-tempered but he has no history I can recall of being openly, offensively rude. Especially not to people he would be expected to think of as friends.

His treatment of Rox is particularly off, not least his final, barked command to Garm to follow him. Garm is not his wolf (maybe legally – no idea how Norn inheritance works). Rox found Garm, tended him as has been looking out for him ever since. If Garm is bonding with any new owner it would surely be Rox. It’s mildly surprising that Garm obeys Braham at all.

All this may turn around and be resolved convincingly later but at the moment it jars. If there isn’t a deeper narrative going on here then it’s not very convincing characterization.

^ I’d prefer Garm to be with Rox than with this idiot child……

Someone said :
“He acts like he knew Eir more than the PC”
I always thought that, since HoT. Well, as a Norn player, Eir was our mentor. We spend more time with her than him, and it seems whe became a close friend.
What Braham said hurt me.
I understand why he broke the fang for the story, but to be honest, i’m very sorry it wasn’t our character. Maybe it’s cuz i’m playing a Norn, but since the book and the launch of the game, i wanted to be the hero breaking this thing.
Now he did it, and he did it with so much stupidity……………

Oh please, make our character and Rox slap him already >_>
Dude you dont bear Eir’s legacy, you just ruin it.

coso.9173:

you guys are talking like if Braham had already lead the Norn to their Doom. it has not happened yet and we dont know if it will ever happen. Slow down there. what is has done so far is just acting hot headed. that is all.

I fear it’s more than that. His stated goal was to chip the fang to rally the norn for an assault on Jormag. The last thing we see is Braham chipping the fang and hearing the cheers of many norn. We know that most norn believe in the tradition that chipping the fang means the time has come to take out Jormag, though we also know from one of the elders that this is just a myth. I can see a lot of norn being ready to follow the “chipper” into a no-win situation, and it’s going to be mighty hard for the few cooler heads to prevail now that Braham’s got the enthusiasm of the mob up. Once the rioters are headed out the door, torches and pitchforks in hand, cooler heads are easily ignored.

There’s also the issue that now that Braham has gone and done it, he may have lost control of the situation. It seems the elders were essentially using the tooth as a method of restraining norn hotheadedness, but now the tooth has been damaged, that’s no longer the case. If Braham tries to urge restraint now, he may find that groups of norn start heading off anyway, and there may even be an attempt to take the bow off him if he’s not going to use it on Jormag himself.

but you’re still assuming this. it has not happened. Norns havent gone yet to kill Jormag and died in the process. we just got to play this story part and it wont be more for a few months at least.
Is he being stupid and whiny? yeah he is. you can blame him for that. has he raided norns to their deaths? No, he hasn’t. so you can’t blame him for that. simple as that.
I like what is happening because it makes the story more entertaining, in LS2 all the group was pretty plain. I mean sute they had their personalities but there wasnt much conflict in it besides Caithe. By antagonizing some characters to the player himself, we get more immersed into the story, that is a good thing.
Have patience and see how things evolve it’s too soon to know or assume what is going to happen next.

Ider.1276:

You can’t kill a dragon using a handfull of people. Desteny Edge tryed, and now Snuff and Glint are dead.

That’s not really fair because weren’t they actually doing really well? Just that their Guardian left them.

But they had a DRAGON backing them up. Again, I think Dragon back up beats a bunch of alcoholics.

Braham is the character I love to hate. He’s a moron, or atleast developing like one. He’s annoying so for me, he’s a mix of logan and treahern

Less.1265:

^ I’d prefer Garm to be with Rox than with this idiot child……

Note how in the end, Garm did not look particularly happy with his new master either… We now have a wolf, and Braham is still the dumbest one in the party!

coso.9173:

By antagonizing some characters to the player himself, we get more immersed into the story, that is a good thing.

I have no problem with some antagonism in the story, but I do have a problem with the PC hardly reacting to Braham’s impertinence at all. That lack of spine kills any potential immersion.

For the “spineless” Reaction. Someone on Reddit mentioned that the PC should have some sort of Survivors Guilt ( not being there with the wrecking of the Pact Fleet and then thinking " I should have been there with the others, if not for Caithe stealing the Egg I could have been there" ) and there should be some Sort of deep Wound cut by killing of his/hers closest Friends. ( There is no Way that having to kill one of your friends isn’t going to mess you up )

Considering this and combining the Fact that the bashing came from another one who the PC called a Friend after a life threatening Situation the PCs Reaction makes sense. And Brahams bashing also sounds a bit like he prepared for this. " Next Time mommakilling Commander comes up I’m kittenting on him/her"

Sadly Anet did a poor Job on showing us how these Things affect our Character so this Reaction in the last Missions comes out of the blue and was not expected.

Well you gotta look at the characters personality. If it were Taimi I would agree with a Montecristo planning on her part. I don’t think Brahm is the smart type though, being an all out warrior persona. People like him tend to use their emotions as a guiding point for their next action rather than an logical one.

For me I like the new Brahm its the exact reaction I got what he would do after Eir’s burial.

To add a thought here – we had to deal with the extreme bitter cold that not even Sons of Svanir can endure unprotected … Meanwhile, in the same general area, Braham Eirsson acts as if he’s not even noticing it’s cold. That more than anything caught my attention – and I think he’s falling much like Svanir himself did. So now we just need a sudden twin sister or something to come up :P

Interesting Thought but Braham was not in the extreme cold Region of the Bitter Cold, we were there and had to use an Elixier to survive there the Rest of the Regions seems to be normally cold, just normal for the Norn.

CptAurellian.9537:

I have no problem with some antagonism in the story, but I do have a problem with the PC hardly reacting to Braham’s impertinence at all. That lack of spine kills any potential immersion.

I think the PC’s reaction might actually have been the wisest course. Braham was in an extremely angry mood and prepared to twist everything the PC said. Had the PC “showed spine”, what would have been accomplished? Braham wasn’t listening with an open mind. Attempting to administer a verbal smackdown at that point would have just widened the rift between them. It was a time to back off and wait for a better opportunity to try to have a reasonable conversation without interruptions by assorted packs of nasties. When a child throws a tantrum, a mature person, such as the PC, does not descend to his level no matter what hurtful and unjust accusations the child is hurling.

Olterin Fire.5960:

I think he’s falling much like Svanir himself did. So now we just need a sudden twin sister or something to come up :P

Hmmm. Did you happen to look at the statue of Chococooka? Perhaps the spirit of Jora is not so far away.

Caithe took the egg that contained an elder Dragon, a potential desaster for all races on Tyria away, slew her sister for a secret that was bound to be unraveled rather sooner than later and evaded us when we tried to catch her.

Braham found a powerful weapon and is probably able to raise an army with it out of people who are notoriously stubborn and independent. The only guy he initially endangered was himself. With Anet maybe wanting the Dragons out of the way, maybe he even succeeds with his brash attack and becomes a rival instead of an ally?

My personal guess is that people hate on Braham because he badmouthed the flipfloping commander and took the initiative from him like Trahearne and Caithe also did.
Trahaerne was more polite than he is, still people hated him.
People seem to love Caithe despite her doing the same and far worser things than Trahearne.

Torolan.5816:

Caithe took the egg that contained an elder Dragon, a potential desaster for all races on Tyria away, slew her sister for a secret that was bound to be unraveled rather sooner than later and evaded us when we tried to catch her.

Braham found a powerful weapon and is probably able to raise an army with it out of people who are notoriously stubborn and independent. The only guy he initially endangered was himself. With Anet maybe wanting the Dragons out of the way, maybe he even succeeds with his brash attack and becomes a rival instead of an ally?

My personal guess is that people hate on Braham because he badmouthed the flipfloping commander and took the initiative from him like Trahearne and Caithe also did.
Trahaerne was more polite than he is, still people hated him.
People seem to love Caithe despite her doing the same and far worser things than Trahearne.

It’s not just about what a character does, but rather how they are portrayed in the process. You can have two characters do the exact same thing on paper, but how they are written and come across in game can make you love or hate them.

Also, Caithe has the excuse that she was likely being manipulated by Mordremoth. She also has the benefit of her actions fortunately not causing a large death count (in fact, despite the “potential” repercussions of her actions, ultimately they amount to little more than an inconvenience for the commander, and no direct casualties can be attributed to them). Add to that the fact that she has a bit more of an interesting back story, doesn’t treat the commander like dirt and still manages to try do what she thinks is best for everyone (and not just herself) despite probably having a darker past than even Braham, and it might become obvious why she’s less hated.

As for Trahearne, if I had to guess the main reason people disliked him, it’s because he came across as a bit bland and one dimensional as a character. He kinda popped up out of the blue unless you played as a Sylvari, and suddenly he becomes commander of the pact and the hope for all of Tyria. I think maybe people would have liked him to have a bit more depth to him, but I personally never “disliked” him, so much as just feel a bit indifferent to him.

There are a lot of ifs surrounding Caithe and her actions, so many ifs that I can´t really see why people like her. LS2 basically made the character a persona non grata for me and I cringe every time the commander gives her some space.
*Killed her sister
*The weak link under the firstborn because of her personality.
*Borderline blinded with love.
*Secretive even now. I have no doubt that she would do the same if she got another chance with another egg.
*She took away the attention of the commander when the pact did lie in ruins. Granted, we did not know that there would be a city just waiting to guard the egg until it hatches. But the commander is an inspiring authority figure and probably the strongest guy/girl around. So instead of pursuing Caithe, he or she could have actually led the pact as it´s his or her job as the second in command instead of chasing a supposed ally through the djungle.

Braham is at least straightforward. I too think he hates the commander, justified or not, and we will probably meet him in battle sooner or later. The death of Eir falls squarely on the shoulders of Faolain in my opinion, the commander managed to safe both Zoja and Logan and would have also saved Eir if Faolain would not have wounded her.

BrettM.9062:

I think the PC’s reaction might actually have been the wisest course. Braham was in an extremely angry mood and prepared to twist everything the PC said. Had the PC “showed spine”, what would have been accomplished? Braham wasn’t listening with an open mind. Attempting to administer a verbal smackdown at that point would have just widened the rift between them. It was a time to back off and wait for a better opportunity to try to have a reasonable conversation without interruptions by assorted packs of nasties. When a child throws a tantrum, a mature person, such as the PC, does not descend to his level no matter what hurtful and unjust accusations the child is hurling.

I think a verbal smackdown on Braham is coming but for this to be effective, the timing needs to be right. Braham didn’t listen to us and right now, where he scratched a bit of the tooth, he would turn even more deaf on what we have to say. So for the verbal smackdown he obviously deserves, he needs to be in a state where he just can’t put us on ignore. As you said, right now he is prepared to twist and turn everything we say into verbal knives he can burrow into us and he was prepared to deliver a verbal smackdown on us.

But what can happen that he can’t twist everything what we say? Simple. A lot of dead Norn as a consequence an epic fail that his assault on Jormag will turn into. And its the only thing that should happen when he tries to attack Jormag. a failed attempt.

Right now a win would make less sense than Scarlet and her Toxic Alliance. I mean Aesgir even got boosted by the Spirits of the Wild and also had the scroll and he just could break Jormags Tooth. There is no reason why Braham should be gifted by the Spirits of the Wild, he is acting against everything the 4 main Spirits stand for, so he’ll just have a bow and an army of joung Norn eager to fight and themselves legends and old Norn who want a death in Battle.