Guild Wars 2

Like the title says, is being rude to the PC for no good reason whatsoever a new trend or something? First Marjory, now Braham…. Who’s next?
Going with this flow, is Kasmeer going to greet us with a middle finger and a spit in our face when she finally comes back from oblivion? Because…. reasons? WTF??!

/Rant.

Well, grief over a lost parent seems a good reason and i think the explanation from the AMA if i read it right

Marjory was also justified since we were being a bit heavy handed with demanding what she could or could not do.

So far, reactions are justified from a certain pov

Loss of an estranged parent. Remember that Eir did not raise Braham. And frankly the PC reaction should have been more along the lines of reminding him that they too lost people…Seiran for example…or Tybalt, our own parents in some cases, and certainly Trahern or any of the other MANY people who have trusted “The Commander”, whom he didn’t seem to have much respect for at all. Oh and by the way Braham, we did something that your mother and Destiny’s Edge couldnt seem to manage alone….we SLAYED A DRAGON! Before you were even involved. I get that the writers are sometimes limited by the fact that we have to get from point A to point D through B and C because of game mechanics or whatever….but I felt like this time it was a bit off and out of character for all of them. Except maybe Taimi…she was still totally in character for the most part. I didn’t expect Braham to care about Lazarus or Caudecus but seriously, almost a “not my problem” about Primordus? Really?

It felt too much like they were saying these things because we had to progress the story…not because it made sense.

Braham turning self destructive over the death of someone he hardly knew, doesn’t seem justified at all. Yeah, it was his mother, but they had no real bond to speak of for like, what, 20ish years? Grief, sure, but going bat-crazy, nah, doesn’t make any sense.

Marjory wasn’t that mean

What was weird about Marjory was the fact that she literally just nominated you to be the leader. I.e. “I’ll let you make the important decisions and follow what you say”. Then the very first opportunity she gets to listen to you it’s “You don’t know me! You can’t tell me what to do!” And runs off. The commander wasn’t heavy handed at all. It was a bad idea. The commander said it was a bad idea. And the commander told Marjory he/she thought it was a bad idea. Commander didn’t even explicitly say “Don’t do it”. Just that Marjory should really reconsider. But Marjory decided to get belligerent about it anyway.

And grief over a parent isn’t a good reason to react the way Braham did. Losing a woman who just happened to give birth to you but whom you’ve never actually had an emotional attachment to is an especially poor reason.
A lot of people lost their parents. Marjory lost her sister. The girl she grew up with and loved dearly. But Marjory didn’t just blame the commander for absolutely no reason and storm off. She handled it like an adult. Took some time off and came back to do her kitten job. Her poor behavior didn’t come until much later and for completely unrelated reasons.
Many PC’s lost their parents and it affected literally no one. The story moved on and the PC kept doing their job of saving the world.

Squee.7829:

Commander didn’t even explicitly say “Don’t do it”. Just that Marjory should really reconsider. But Marjory decided to get belligerent about it anyway.

Actually, the Commander said “I can’t let you do it.” “Let” is pretty strong and deserved a strong reaction. And, frankly, the Commander’s concerns seem a little bit overblown. It is certainly a calculated risk, but the Commander has taken a few of those as well in the past.

Braham, on the other hand, was more than just “rude”. He was dripping with absolute contempt. You could hear the quotes around “Commander” in his voice. It makes me wonder if he hasn’t decided that the Commander was at least partially responsible for Eir’s death. (Thinking something like “If the Commander had listened to me and gone charging blindly into an unknown jungle on Eir’s trail while ignoring all other duties and considerations, we might have caught up to her captors in time to prevent what happened. But he chose to fool around, making allies of frogs, saving turncoat saladheads, gathering intelligence, etc. while my-mother-the-legend was in immediate danger. Time for the direct approach. From here on I’m going to do things MY way.”)

BrettM.9062:

Squee.7829:

Commander didn’t even explicitly say “Don’t do it”. Just that Marjory should really reconsider. But Marjory decided to get belligerent about it anyway.

Actually, the Commander said “I can’t let you do it.” “Let” is pretty strong and deserved a strong reaction. And, frankly, the Commander’s concerns seem a little bit overblown. It is certainly a calculated risk, but the Commander has taken a few of those as well in the past.

Braham, on the other hand, was more than just “rude”. He was dripping with absolute contempt. You could hear the quotes around “Commander” in his voice. It makes me wonder if he hasn’t decided that the Commander was at least partially responsible for Eir’s death. (Thinking something like “If the Commander had listened to me and gone charging blindly into an unknown jungle on Eir’s trail while ignoring all other duties and considerations, we might have caught up to her captors in time to prevent what happened. But he chose to fool around, making allies of frogs, saving turncoat saladheads, gathering intelligence, etc. while my-mother-the-legend was in immediate danger. Time for the direct approach. From here on I’m going to do things MY way.”)

My mistake. I should have gone back and re-read that.

Squee.7829:

What was weird about Marjory was the fact that she literally just nominated you to be the leader. I.e. “I’ll let you make the important decisions and follow what you say”. Then the very first opportunity she gets to listen to you it’s “You don’t know me! You can’t tell me what to do!” And runs off. The commander wasn’t heavy handed at all. It was a bad idea. The commander said it was a bad idea. And the commander told Marjory he/she thought it was a bad idea. Commander didn’t even explicitly say “Don’t do it”. Just that Marjory should really reconsider. But Marjory decided to get belligerent about it anyway.

And grief over a parent isn’t a good reason to react the way Braham did. Losing a woman who just happened to give birth to you but whom you’ve never actually had an emotional attachment to is an especially poor reason.
A lot of people lost their parents. Marjory lost her sister. The girl she grew up with and loved dearly. But Marjory didn’t just blame the commander for absolutely no reason and storm off. She handled it like an adult. Took some time off and came back to do her kitten job. Her poor behavior didn’t come until much later and for completely unrelated reasons.
Many PC’s lost their parents and it affected literally no one. The story moved on and the PC kept doing their job of saving the world.

^ THIS. I 10.000% agree with what Squee said. I undestand that they both lost someone important to them (but they were NOT the only ones), and i also understand that they are angry about it. But they have absolutely no reasons to direct that anger towards the Commander. No reasons. At all.

All we did was tell Marjory that trusting a super villain who suddenly pretends to be a good guy might be a bad idea, and tell Braham to wait a few days to see if Taimi could come up with a better plan. And we got a middle finger and a “kittenk you!” as response. It’s nonsense.

Sir Alric.5078:

Squee.7829:

What was weird about Marjory was the fact that she literally just nominated you to be the leader. I.e. “I’ll let you make the important decisions and follow what you say”. Then the very first opportunity she gets to listen to you it’s “You don’t know me! You can’t tell me what to do!” And runs off. The commander wasn’t heavy handed at all. It was a bad idea. The commander said it was a bad idea. And the commander told Marjory he/she thought it was a bad idea. Commander didn’t even explicitly say “Don’t do it”. Just that Marjory should really reconsider. But Marjory decided to get belligerent about it anyway.

And grief over a parent isn’t a good reason to react the way Braham did. Losing a woman who just happened to give birth to you but whom you’ve never actually had an emotional attachment to is an especially poor reason.
A lot of people lost their parents. Marjory lost her sister. The girl she grew up with and loved dearly. But Marjory didn’t just blame the commander for absolutely no reason and storm off. She handled it like an adult. Took some time off and came back to do her kitten job. Her poor behavior didn’t come until much later and for completely unrelated reasons.
Many PC’s lost their parents and it affected literally no one. The story moved on and the PC kept doing their job of saving the world.

^ THIS. I 10.000% agree with what Squee said. I undestand that they both lost someone important to them (but they were NOT the only ones), and i also understand that they are angry about it. But they have absolutely no reasons to direct that anger towards the Commander. No reasons. At all.

All we did was tell Marjory that trusting a super villain who suddenly pretends to be a good guy might be a bad idea, and tell Braham to wait a few days to see if Taimi could come up with a better plan. And we got a middle finger and a kittenk you!" as response. It’s nonsense.

No our conversation with Majory was a lot more than advising it would be unjust. We virtually told her she wasn’t allowed. She reacted exactly as her character would. We know from her background she is very independently minded and should have known how she would have reacted. It was our character that seemed to forget this. Marjory was justified in her reaction, which was nowhere near as bad as ppl are making out anyway.

Braham is young, angry and headstrong. And from a different culture to us. Grief affects people in illogical and unexpected ways. There is absolutely no possible way to say what he did was wrong, when such a reaction is entirely plausible given the circumstances. He had just reconciled with a Mother and immediately lost her. That would have caused confusing emotions for him and lashing out is to be expected.

Just because other characters lost people, does not mean there are set rules for how an individual must deal with their loss.

Neither acted out of character at all given the circumstances, in fact for Marjory to essentially roll over on our command would have been quite the opposite.

It’s nice to get more drama and conflict anyway – it’s more believable and interesting when groups don’t always get along.

Braham didn’t know Eir so it wasn’t justified especially when others who had closer loved ones had died.

I honestly thought Majory was racist my character is Sylvari and Mordy her dead sister and so forth were tied to Sylvari. She has said some antiSylvari statements as well as other NPCs regarding my race. So since I’m a Sylvari I though she was placing the issues with my entire race on me. Remember minor differences in Hot if played as a Sylvari. If she is treating everyone like that then I guess it’s not due to race and she just truly despises your character for who you are deep down inside.

Basically a team of strangers calling you boss and worshipping you one second instantly wants your head now instead. So who votes we kill the lot of em crept Tiami and Rox then kill Rhytlock if he doesn’t stop being all broody over secrets of a class peeps have no lore behind for months and call it a day?

I think Marjory’s reaction is fine. She essentially said that she disagrees with us and she can do what she wants, so she is going to. If someone told me that they weren’t going to let me do something I already made my mind up about I would say the same thing. She calls us boss, but we aren’t paying her so we have no sort of actual power over her unless she wants it. Is it an ill advised decision? Sure, but she thinks she can handle it and that we are just underestimating her. She at least seems to understand our concern. I think maybe the way she phrased it was a bit rude, but the Commander babying her was also maybe a bit rude. At the very least she didn’t seem to personally resent the Commander outside of saying we can’t tell her what to do. She didn’t personally attack us or look down on us.

Braham, however, is a whole ‘nother story, but I’ve commented on that in another thread already so I’ll just leave it at that.

I’ve read some interesting point on reddit about Braham’s situation. Basically, after Moredremoth’s demise he was alone for some times and had time to think. It is possible that he came to the conclusion that Eir could have been saved if the Pact Commander hadn’t spent his time talking, and thinking, but instead dove with him and Rytlock deep into the Jungle.

Basically, he is angry at us for having waited and spent time allying with the Itzel in Verdant Brink. And out character isn’t able to react strongly against him because of what happened (the death by hiw own hands of his friend Trahearne, the death of Eir, the whole campaign in the Jungle and its many deaths, etc.). The problem is, if ANet truly wanted to go that way, they should have made it clear, something like that :

Braham : Alone in the Shiverpeaks, I’ve had time to think. About what you did and did not do in the Jungle. My mother died because you wanted to wait, to try to gather useless informations. Who cared about the Hylek ?
Pact Commander : I… I understand why you felt that way, but Moredremoth was too dangerous. We had to had allies, we had to have more intel !
Braham : Your intel got my mother dead.

Rox : I’m sorry about Braham, boss, don’t be too angry with him, please.
Pact Commander : It’s not him I’m angry with, Rox. It’s me.
Rox : You ? Why would you feel that way ?
Pact Commander : Do you know why I chose to leave the Pact ?
Rox: Hrm… no ?
Pact Commander : Because no matter what I decided to do, people died. I had to kill Trahearne, a friend, the one person I could trust to lead us in the fight against the Elder Dragons. I’m… I’m tired Rox. I’m just tired…
Rox: I… I don’t really know what to say, boss. But keep fighting, you’re an inspiration for all who want to stand against the Dragons, you know ? You can’t let go now.
Pact Commander : Thanks you Rox.

This dialogue, instead of some we had would have went a long way to convey Braham’s point in a better way, less obscure way, would have shown why our character was unable to truly react strongly to the harsh words of the Norn (after all, taking down two Dragons, with Scarlet in between is a lot for anyone, especially when you had to confront your force of will with the mind of Mordremoth) and would have made Braham a lot more sympathetic to the player, because he wouldn’t feel so aggressive out of the blue.

No this is a continuation of Anets disrespect for the people who play their game. It’s just more apparent now. Their contempt for the people who pay their wages grows exponentially.

Shadow.3671:

No this is a continuation of Anets disrespect for the people who play their game. It’s just more apparent now. Their contempt for the people who pay their wages grows exponentially.

I don’t normally call out people like this, but I looked at your post history and it’s over three years of literally nothing but complaints and dissatisfaction. You don’t have to play this game. You really don’t. Why subject yourself to something you find so deeply unsatisfying on every level… for over three years?

I’m confused by all the people saying Braham didn’t know Eir.

He was raised by his father until he was 7 and then by the people of Cragstead, but he still had some contact with Eir, and he explained at various points in the story that part of the reason he felt distant from her is he found it difficult to reconcile the stories he heard of her adventures with the woman he knew as his mother. I think he said he didn’t believe the legends, he thought she or the people re-telling the stories had made them up. (Which would be a pretty bad thing to do among the norn since their reputation is extremely important to them.)

But more importantly they started working together 3 years ago (it was during Flame & Frost when we first learned he’s Eir’s son and first saw them together, according to the Wiki that was 1326 and Season 3 is 1329).

Try to imagine how you might feel if you’d been largely estranged from your mother for most of your life, spent 3 years getting to know her and realising you actually have a lot in common and then just as you were starting to get close you thought she’d been killed, found out she was alive and then she was killed, right in front of you.

Even if you’re thinking no part of that is anything like your own real life experience (and I sincerely hope that last part is not) so you can’t directly related to it I hope you can imagine that would be a pretty terrible experience and extremely difficult to process.

Even if she wasn’t his mother, they had never met before Flame and Frost and had no connection beyond those 3 years of adventures together that would still be significant. People are comparing it to our character losing their Order mentor (Tybalt, Sieran or Forgal) who our characters knew for a couple of months at most, I think even less than that. I don’t think there can be any question that Braham’s situation is worse than that.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

At least in real life you can respond properly when people give you crap. Something the commander never seems to do.

The commander doesn’t have to respond cuz he/she knows that he/she has mary sue status in this story and will always end up vindicated.

Danikat.8537:

Try to imagine how you might feel if you’d been largely estranged from your mother for most of your life, spent 3 years getting to know her and realising you actually have a lot in common and then just as you were starting to get close you thought she’d been killed, found out she was alive and then she was killed, right in front of you.that.

Yes, she was killed in front of Braham. And he had his vengeance. He was there, he helped killing Mordremoth. And his behavior then, right after his mother death, was a ton more reasonable. After taking down Mordy Braham was in depression or even acseptence. And nor he is back to pure mindless anger. People brains don’t work that way! How can you write a grieving character and screw up 7 stages of acsepting grief?

Ider.1276:

Danikat.8537:

Try to imagine how you might feel if you’d been largely estranged from your mother for most of your life, spent 3 years getting to know her and realising you actually have a lot in common and then just as you were starting to get close you thought she’d been killed, found out she was alive and then she was killed, right in front of you.that.

Yes, she was killed in front of Braham. And he had his vengeance. He was there, he helped killing Mordremoth. And his behavior then, right after his mother death, was a ton more reasonable. After taking down Mordy Braham was in depression or even acseptence. And nor he is back to pure mindless anger. People brains don’t work that way! How can you write a grieving character and screw up 7 stages of acsepting grief?

Except that Braham was estranged from his mother for a long long time and only recently got to talk to her. All the years he blamed her no doubt stokes his guilt and thus his anger.

Anyone who tries to boil down human behavior to the steps of grieving needs to get out and meet more humans.

For one thing, not everyone reacts the same. There are people still greiving over dead relatives or spouses for years. It does happen.

Braham is still relatively immature and he’s a norn. I’m relatively sure beating stuff up is now Norns deal with grief anyway.

Hearing that the old guild, his mother’s guild is being disbanded and replaced with a new guild isn’t going to make him much happier either.

Especially not the way the new guild was announced to him. That part did bother me, it really wasn’t the time or the place to tell him about the new guild because no matter how he reacted it needed more explanation than we had time to give.

But having played through this again yesterday I think the problem with the dialogue for me is that Braham has to call your character Commander and in that kind of conversation I think you’d only refer to someone by their rank if that was all they were to you – your commanding officer. It makes him seem more distant and therefore more angry than he is. (Or if they were the kind of person to insist on being addressed formally at all times, which would make your character seem more distant.)

When I ignored that and mentally inserted my characters nickname (which is what she would ask the guild to call her if it was possible to do that) even said in the same tone of voice it changed how I interpreted it. Yes he’s angry, but not just at you – at the whole situation and the world and he’s frustrated because it’s a deeply personal thing to him and other people sort-of fit into it but not really.

He’s not moving neatly through the 7 stages of grief in an orderly fashion, progressing to the next step each time we see him. People very rarely do that. He’s still angry and upset and probably feeling quite lost too because he got his revenge – he killed the thing that killed his mother and it didn’t make it better, it may even have made it worse because now he has nowhere to direct that anger.

Basically he’s being like Batman. Directing that anger and grief towards anything vaguely related to the thing that killed his mother (the other dragons) and pushing away the people close to him because he doesn’t think they can understand, or even really care, how he feels.

It is cute when people defend behaviour of NPC character, to be rude, but when real people get rude they see it is a toxic behaviour.

It was always surprising to me that NPC characters could be rude, toxic, say nasty things and that was okay…
And instead of developers to show how someone should act they go with this hypocrisy!

Nice way of showing how someone should act when they lose a parent! I was never rude to anyone when I’ve lost mine!

Mikali.9651:

It is cute when people defend behaviour of NPC character, to be rude, but when real people get rude they see it is a toxic behaviour.

It was always surprising to me that NPC characters could be rude, toxic, say nasty things and that was okay…
And instead of developers to show how someone should act they go with this hypocrisy!

Nice way of showing how someone should act when they lose a parent! I was never rude to anyone when I’ve lost mine!

I’m pretty sure the situations was different. What’s the point of playing a fantasy game if you’re going to assign human cultural values to other races? Are norns actually humans? Do you feel this is out of character for a norn?

First of all, game companies, and in fact all fiction and literature, are going to show flawed characters at times, because flawed characters are more interesting than characters without flaws. People don’t watch or like that kind of fiction any more.

There’s no more “good guys” in wrestling. All the good guys, well most of them anyway are dark. It’s more interesting. It’s more “realistic”.

It would be hypocritical of any artist to only portray one side of humanity while ignoring the darker side.

Personally, I think it’s a bit of an insult to Eir’s legend.
Imagine Eir watching him from the mists.
“I fought two dragons, succeeded on the second, got killed going against a third, and did my best to keep my friends together the whole time in the true manner of the spirit of Wolf, and you’re charging in blindly and trying to get your friends killed? Is that how you’re honoring my legend? With divisiveness? Did Raven bless you with the wit and cleverness of a paper towel?”

AriaFiresong.7023:

Personally, I think it’s a bit of an insult to Eir’s legend.
Imagine Eir watching him from the mists.
“I fought two dragons, succeeded on the second, got killed going against a third, and did my best to keep my friends together the whole time in the true manner of the spirit of Wolf, and you’re charging in blindly and trying to get your friends killed? Is that how you’re honoring my legend? With divisiveness? Did Raven bless you with the wit and cleverness of a paper towel?”

This is how I saw it too. The player may not have known Eir as long as Braham technically did, but due to the adventures they had I feel that the player knew her better. Braham rejected who she was and now that she’s gone he’s pushing away the one person who could help him understand her. The player not only was able to understand her, but was able to help bring her back to herself after she lost her way.

As for Marjory, she appointed the player as leader of the new quasi-guild. Despite being far more qualified to lead the group she deferred at every chance to the player’s decision. Then, the one and only time, when the player actually exerts that authority on her she rejects it out of hand. I never wanted to be the leader of the group. I was fully ready to follow the cool lady detective, then suddenly I’m in charge? Fine, I’ll be in charge, but if I’m in charge it means I have the last word on what does and doesn’t get done.

I’m missing the days when we had to decide from at least 2 options which way we chose. Yea, right, more resources needed etc…

(Also I’d like to slap him in the face, or make him play this out with Rytlock if he wouldn’t be taken to prison that is…)

Randulf.7614:

Well, grief over a lost parent seems a good reason

Sure, because Eir and Braham were so close to begin with.

They had no connection and only just begun to know each other a little when he was already a grownup. So that didn’t convince me, sorry. To me, he is being rude for no reason other than being a thickheaded jerk, endangering the whole world with his mindless actions. Like a pouty child that didn’t get its lollipop. Or like Donald Trump.

Ashantara.8731:

Randulf.7614:

Well, grief over a lost parent seems a good reason

Sure, because Eir and Braham were so close to begin with.

They had no connection and only just begun to know each other a little when he was already a grownup. So that didn’t convince me, sorry. To me, he is being rude for no reason other than being a thickheaded jerk, endangering the whole world with his mindless actions. Like a pouty child that didn’t get its lollipop. Or like Donald Trump.

Actually, people get angrier in just that situation, when they have had no contact with their parent early on and lose their parent before they can get to know them. Grieving people like to find something or someone to blame and, Mordremoth being dead, the Commander is a much more convenient target for Braham’s bad aim.

Of course there’s another explanation: dragons absorb some of the powers of their defeated “colleagues” and Mordy has some weapons that affected people’s perceptions. So maybe the Elders of Fire & Ice are trying to create a rift among the forces most likely to challenge them, by preying off Braham’s and Marjory’s grief.

Kal Spiro.9745:

AriaFiresong.7023:

Personally, I think it’s a bit of an insult to Eir’s legend.
Imagine Eir watching him from the mists.
“I fought two dragons, succeeded on the second, got killed going against a third, and did my best to keep my friends together the whole time in the true manner of the spirit of Wolf, and you’re charging in blindly and trying to get your friends killed? Is that how you’re honoring my legend? With divisiveness? Did Raven bless you with the wit and cleverness of a paper towel?”

This is how I saw it too. The player may not have known Eir as long as Braham technically did, but due to the adventures they had I feel that the player knew her better. Braham rejected who she was and now that she’s gone he’s pushing away the one person who could help him understand her. The player not only was able to understand her, but was able to help bring her back to herself after she lost her way.

As for Marjory, she appointed the player as leader of the new quasi-guild. Despite being far more qualified to lead the group she deferred at every chance to the player’s decision. Then, the one and only time, when the player actually exerts that authority on her she rejects it out of hand. I never wanted to be the leader of the group. I was fully ready to follow the cool lady detective, then suddenly I’m in charge? Fine, I’ll be in charge, but if I’m in charge it means I have the last word on what does and doesn’t get done.

This.

If I have to be in charge, if I am responsible for leadership of the group, something Marjory insisted on, then I should be able to expect others to either follow or resign from the guild. Now we know that Marjory lies to us and cannot be relied on. She should be removed from the guild.

Grief doesn’t have to make sense. It never does IRL.

Ashen.2907:

If I have to be in charge, if I am responsible for leadership of the group, something Marjory insisted on, then I should be able to expect others to either follow or resign from the guild. Now we know that Marjory lies to us and cannot be relied on. She should be removed from the guild.

I would never want to be part of a guild with a leader so autocratic that they thought they had the right to control every minute of my time. Guild members have their own lives and responsibilities as well as guild membership. Jory has never disobeyed a direct order in combat, but this wasn’t a battlefield situation. The fight was over, we were not on a mission in enemy territory, and she is on her own time, fully entitled to do with it as she pleases, whether or not it seems foolish or risky to anyone else.

The primary purpose of Dragon’s Watch is to work against the elder dragons. Lazarus and the White Mantle situation are currently peripheral issues, if even that. Kick Margery out of the guild because she’s off doing something not apparently related to the guild’s charter and current investigations of Primordus and Jormag? By that standard the Commander should have been thrown out of the Pact long ago, back in the Scarlet days.

To me, this is a symptom of an apparently necessary evil. In order to foster the story, “I” end up choosing things that I would not do, say things I would not say, etc. It’s nearly impossible for me to form any bond, emotional, or even cognitive, with my character when I would never have chosen most of my actions or words. ANet should look at Bioware stories. While the choices are somewhat simplistic, and usually end up in the same place, at least there is some choice. In ANet stories, it feels like I am watching a movie that makes little to no sense to me, while NPC’s emote about various things, and while nothing I want or feel makes the slightest difference to the outcome.

I don’t know what happened to ANet story-telling. While the GW stories were similarly on rails, the writers at least made me feel that my contribution mattered. I felt good when I rescued Koss. I felt bad when I had to destroy Rurik. In GW2, I find myself with no appreciation or affection for the NPC’s, especially DE 2.0, or whatever they’re being called. They could all jump off a cliff, and I wouldn’t even blink.

BrettM.9062:

Ashen.2907:

If I have to be in charge, if I am responsible for leadership of the group, something Marjory insisted on, then I should be able to expect others to either follow or resign from the guild. Now we know that Marjory lies to us and cannot be relied on. She should be removed from the guild.

I would never want to be part of a guild with a leader so autocratic that they thought they had the right to control every minute of my time.

Luckily no one is asking to control every minute of anyone’s time.

BrettM.9062:

Guild members have their own lives and responsibilities as well as guild membership. Jory has never disobeyed a direct order in combat, but this wasn’t a battlefield situation. The fight was over, we were not on a mission in enemy territory, and she is on her own time, fully entitled to do with it as she pleases, whether or not it seems foolish or risky to anyone else.

The primary purpose of Dragon’s Watch is to work against the elder dragons. Lazarus and the White Mantle situation are currently peripheral issues, if even that. Kick Margery out of the guild because she’s off doing something not apparently related to the guild’s charter and current investigations of Primordus and Jormag? By that standard the Commander should have been thrown out of the Pact long ago, back in the Scarlet days.

The matter was directly related to the core mission of the guild…which includes Aurene, threats to her, etc.

The storytelling trope of “the group fractures, the group reforms” is tough to pull off without it being a cliche. Consider how it appears in horror stories.
With Marjory and Braham, it reads to me as though the writers tried to cram too much motivation into too short a timeline and had to/wanted to make dialogue and combat progress at the same rate and with similar intensity.

Imo, Marjory’s scene came across as the more contrived, as though the writers wanted to absolve the player of responsibility for what happens to her. Hopefully her scene was just the result of making it conform to the trope, a way to turn Braham’s story into the trope.

Braham’s story could be really interesting. I hope the writers explore the reaction and motivation of the Norn elders and not just use them as a rubber stamp for Braham.

Sir Alric.5078:

Like the title says, is being rude to the PC for no good reason whatsoever a new trend or something? First Marjory, now Braham…. Who’s next?
Going with this flow, is Kasmeer going to greet us with a middle finger and a spit in our face when she finally comes back from oblivion? Because…. reasons? WTF??!

/Rant.

If this happens, I can’t wait to see how Taimi blows up

Sir Alric.5078:

Like the title says, is being rude to the PC for no good reason whatsoever a new trend or something? First Marjory, now Braham…. Who’s next?
Going with this flow, is Kasmeer going to greet us with a middle finger and a spit in our face when she finally comes back from oblivion? Because…. reasons? WTF??!

/Rant.

I don’t understand this either. After having gone through so much together, the commander deserves better from Marjory and Braham. Their behavior makes no sense.

skullmount.1758:

If this happens, I can’t wait to see how Taimi blows up

Physically? Or emotionally? Relevant question, because …well, Asura.

BrettM.9062:

Ashen.2907:

If I have to be in charge, if I am responsible for leadership of the group, something Marjory insisted on, then I should be able to expect others to either follow or resign from the guild. Now we know that Marjory lies to us and cannot be relied on. She should be removed from the guild.

I would never want to be part of a guild with a leader so autocratic that they thought they had the right to control every minute of my time. Guild members have their own lives and responsibilities as well as guild membership. Jory has never disobeyed a direct order in combat, but this wasn’t a battlefield situation. The fight was over, we were not on a mission in enemy territory, and she is on her own time, fully entitled to do with it as she pleases, whether or not it seems foolish or risky to anyone else.

The primary purpose of Dragon’s Watch is to work against the elder dragons. Lazarus and the White Mantle situation are currently peripheral issues, if even that. Kick Margery out of the guild because she’s off doing something not apparently related to the guild’s charter and current investigations of Primordus and Jormag? By that standard the Commander should have been thrown out of the Pact long ago, back in the Scarlet days.

What part of, this is the first time the player has ever exerted the authority Marjory herself forced on us, did you miss? Where are all the other minutes coming from? This was one time when she is making a terrible choice that is extremely dangerous, has no reasonable expectation of a worthwhile return on her time, and ultimately puts the entire team in danger should things that could easily happen actually occur.

Also, that’s not the purpose of the guild. That’s the purpose of the Pact. The purpose of the guild is to seek ways to defeat the dragons. The most important way currently being Aurene, but also includes the magic of the bloodstones and whatever crazy ideas Taimi thinks up. Lazarus is directly connected to two of those things in this specific scene since he stole the magic of a bloodstone and is suddenly invading the area Aurene is in while the defences are down.

Kal Spiro.9745:

BrettM.9062:

I would never want to be part of a guild with a leader so autocratic that they thought they had the right to control every minute of my time. Guild members have their own lives and responsibilities as well as guild membership. Jory has never disobeyed a direct order in combat, but this wasn’t a battlefield situation. The fight was over, we were not on a mission in enemy territory, and she is on her own time, fully entitled to do with it as she pleases, whether or not it seems foolish or risky to anyone else.

The primary purpose of Dragon’s Watch is to work against the elder dragons. Lazarus and the White Mantle situation are currently peripheral issues, if even that. Kick Margery out of the guild because she’s off doing something not apparently related to the guild’s charter and current investigations of Primordus and Jormag? By that standard the Commander should have been thrown out of the Pact long ago, back in the Scarlet days.

What part of, this is the first time the player has ever exerted the authority Marjory herself forced on us, did you miss? Where are all the other minutes coming from? This was one time when she is making a terrible choice that is extremely dangerous, has no reasonable expectation of a worthwhile return on her time, and ultimately puts the entire team in danger should things that could easily happen actually occur.

Also, that’s not the purpose of the guild. That’s the purpose of the Pact. The purpose of the guild is to seek ways to defeat the dragons. The most important way currently being Aurene, but also includes the magic of the bloodstones and whatever crazy ideas Taimi thinks up. Lazarus is directly connected to two of those things in this specific scene since he stole the magic of a bloodstone and is suddenly invading the area Aurene is in while the defences are down.

You denied my view on the purpose of the guild while restating it in slightly different words. The purpose of the guild is not to work against the elder dragons, but to seek ways to defeat them? Huh? Seeking ways to defeat them is not working against them?

We dropped the whole thing with investigating the bloodstone and the White Mantle the second we heard that Primordus was active. If we consider Lazarus a threat to Aurene, you sure can’t tell it by any action that we’re taking. We just let him walk (float) away. That makes the issues of the bloodstone, the White Mantle, and Lazarus peripheral to what we see as the main issues at this time. We might be worried about these things, but we’ve either left them in other hands (Canach and the Shining Blade) or left them unaddressed in any way. For now, at any rate.

What part of “we were exerting authority outside of the proper sphere of that authority” did YOU miss? We had no right whatsoever to order Marjory not to investigate Lazarus under the circumstances. Advise, yes. Order, no. Again, this is not an in-combat situation or a mission moving through enemy territory. Jory is on her own time, not on any assignment from the guild. Nor is her action interfering with any project in which the guild is actively engaged, since we are doing nothing on those issues.

Lazarus made not one single threat against Aurene. He did not “invade”, he helped defend her. If this was part of some nefarious plot on his part, then it is certainly vital that somebody keep tabs on him and investigate his activities. Is there someone better qualified than Marjory the investigator to do this? And how does her doing so “put the entire team in danger”?

Furthermore, Lazarus did not “steal” the magic from the bloodstone. He was summoned there by a bunch of White Mantle nincompoops trying to resurrect him. He prevented a horrible disaster that could have affected several major cities in Tyria. (Assuming General Soulkeeper is correct in stating that the explosion could have hit LA if it had not reversed, then what are the chances that Rata Sum, the Grove, and Divinity’s Reach would have gone untouched? All three are closer to Bloodstone Fen than is LA.)

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ashantara.8731:

Randulf.7614:

Well, grief over a lost parent seems a good reason

Sure, because Eir and Braham were so close to begin with.

They had no connection and only just begun to know each other a little when he was already a grownup. So that didn’t convince me, sorry. To me, he is being rude for no reason other than being a thickheaded jerk, endangering the whole world with his mindless actions. Like a pouty child that didn’t get its lollipop. Or like Donald Trump.

Actually, people get angrier in just that situation, when they have had no contact with their parent early on and lose their parent before they can get to know them. Grieving people like to find something or someone to blame and, Mordremoth being dead, the Commander is a much more convenient target for Braham’s bad aim.

Of course there’s another explanation: dragons absorb some of the powers of their defeated “colleagues” and Mordy has some weapons that affected people’s perceptions. So maybe the Elders of Fire & Ice are trying to create a rift among the forces most likely to challenge them, by preying off Braham’s and Marjory’s grief.

That makes sense. Braham and Marjory have been acting somewhat out-of-character lately. And their choice of clothing also indicate “a darker side”. Maybe there is something brewing up…

The only mistake Anet made with Marjory situation is that they gave the player an option to disagree with her going with Lazarus. This is why this option was a mistake:
1) It doesn’t change anything. Marjory will anyway depart with Lazarus, no matter of your approval or disapproval. Illusion of choice is always a bad thing. If you can’t make a branching path, just stick with one plot, but a good written one.
2) It is just illogical. Why would you want a powerfull and cunning being vanish into thin air and continue plotting god knows what without any surveillance?
3) It drives Pact Commander and Marjory out of character.
If you approve Marjory’s plan everything seems logic, Jory is polite to you. If you disapprove everything goes nuts and Marjory is rude. Like if the devs are punishing you for the wrong choice. So why there is a choice then?

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ashantara.8731:

Randulf.7614:

Well, grief over a lost parent seems a good reason

Sure, because Eir and Braham were so close to begin with.

They had no connection and only just begun to know each other a little when he was already a grownup. So that didn’t convince me, sorry. To me, he is being rude for no reason other than being a thickheaded jerk, endangering the whole world with his mindless actions. Like a pouty child that didn’t get its lollipop. Or like Donald Trump.

Actually, people get angrier in just that situation, when they have had no contact with their parent early on and lose their parent before they can get to know them.

Or they were never emotionally invested and it doesn’t hit them as hard as killing Trahearne (firstborn sylvari, brother to all other sylvari, Marshal of the Pact, close friend to the player and the closest person to understand our burden as Pact Commander) or losing a massive Pact fleet, or losing hundreds or thousands of sylvari lives (brothers and sisters to sylvari PCs and Caithe who hasn’t even mentioned the devastating loss the sylvari suffed since HoT, who also lost Faolain who almost completely defined her identity in the story up til now).

How are we supposed to take seriously an estranged son’s grief over his mother’s death when almost everyone else in the current story has suffered far greater loss across two dragon campaigns (and more) and they all soldier on without even mentioning it? Seriously, it is the greatest writing fail of GW2 on how they handle the sylvari/Mordremoth story (or the lack of the sylvari lore and exploration in HoT) and the complete absence of a fallout from it when you consider how overblown Braham’s soap opera grief is by comparison to the massive numbers of dead sylvari lost to Mordremoth.

The current Braham plot is stupid because it tunnel visions on Braham’s situation (in the eyes of himself and everyone around him) and ignores the reality of everyone else around him who also suffers. It isn’t a case of “What would Braham feel in this situation?” but rather “Why doesn’t anyone else feel like this?”. It’s dismissive of everyone else in Tyria including us, the players who have faced massive losses.

Imagine how a sylvari, who looked up to Trahearne as a brother and leader, not only of their race, but as the first hope for Tyria slaying a dragon. Then you have to kill your brother, friend and leader to save Tyria. That gets no attention at all while we have all this attention on Braham? Fudge that.

Danikat.8537:

I’m confused by all the people saying Braham didn’t know Eir.

He was raised by his father until he was 7 and then by the people of Cragstead, but he still had some contact with Eir, and he explained at various points in the story that part of the reason he felt distant from her is he found it difficult to reconcile the stories he heard of her adventures with the woman he knew as his mother.

My understanding is that Eir explicitly did not visit Braham because that would mean she knew about his father’s death. His father didn’t want anyone to tell Eir about his death because he believed she would retire and return home to her son.

“Your mother’s name is Eir Stegalkin. Remember that, but I will tell you what I told Yngvi and Brynhildr. No one must send word to your mother that I am gone. I forbid it. She is capable of great things, as are you. She must not be tempted to stray from her path. Wolf walks beside her. But you mustn’t worry. He walks beside you as well, my son. Never forget that.”

It’s a clumsy way of explaining how Eir had a son that magically appeared in the story with no prior mention, but it does indicate Eir had no contact with Braham when he was a child. He knew who she was but she didn’t spend time with him. So again, a lot of people are projecting their own feelings about their mother’s onto Braham but Braham’s relationship with his mother was nothing like a normal person’s relationship.

For anyone who wants to put their opinion to a poll, the official twitter has this

https://twitter.com/GuildWars2/status/803695709681643520

(I don’t have a twitter account so have no idea the popular vote atm)

Randulf.7614:

For anyone who wants to put their opinion to a poll, the official twitter has this

https://twitter.com/GuildWars2/status/803695709681643520

(I don’t have a twitter account so have no idea the popular vote atm)

29% It’s understandable
71% He’s in the wrong

Shiren.9532:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ashantara.8731:

Randulf.7614:

Well, grief over a lost parent seems a good reason

Sure, because Eir and Braham were so close to begin with.

They had no connection and only just begun to know each other a little when he was already a grownup. So that didn’t convince me, sorry. To me, he is being rude for no reason other than being a thickheaded jerk, endangering the whole world with his mindless actions. Like a pouty child that didn’t get its lollipop. Or like Donald Trump.

Actually, people get angrier in just that situation, when they have had no contact with their parent early on and lose their parent before they can get to know them.

Or they were never emotionally invested and it doesn’t hit them as hard as killing Trahearne (firstborn sylvari, brother to all other sylvari, Marshal of the Pact, close friend to the player and the closest person to understand our burden as Pact Commander) or losing a massive Pact fleet, or losing hundreds or thousands of sylvari lives (brothers and sisters to sylvari PCs and Caithe who hasn’t even mentioned the devastating loss the sylvari suffed since HoT, who also lost Faolain who almost completely defined her identity in the story up til now).

How are we supposed to take seriously an estranged son’s grief over his mother’s death when almost everyone else in the current story has suffered far greater loss across two dragon campaigns (and more) and they all soldier on without even mentioning it? Seriously, it is the greatest writing fail of GW2 on how they handle the sylvari/Mordremoth story (or the lack of the sylvari lore and exploration in HoT) and the complete absence of a fallout from it when you consider how overblown Braham’s soap opera grief is by comparison to the massive numbers of dead sylvari lost to Mordremoth.

The current Braham plot is stupid because it tunnel visions on Braham’s situation (in the eyes of himself and everyone around him) and ignores the reality of everyone else around him who also suffers. It isn’t a case of “What would Braham feel in this situation?” but rather “Why doesn’t anyone else feel like this?”. It’s dismissive of everyone else in Tyria including us, the players who have faced massive losses.

Imagine how a sylvari, who looked up to Trahearne as a brother and leader, not only of their race, but as the first hope for Tyria slaying a dragon. Then you have to kill your brother, friend and leader to save Tyria. That gets no attention at all while we have all this attention on Braham? Fudge that.

Danikat.8537:

I’m confused by all the people saying Braham didn’t know Eir.

He was raised by his father until he was 7 and then by the people of Cragstead, but he still had some contact with Eir, and he explained at various points in the story that part of the reason he felt distant from her is he found it difficult to reconcile the stories he heard of her adventures with the woman he knew as his mother.

My understanding is that Eir explicitly did not visit Braham because that would mean she knew about his father’s death. His father didn’t want anyone to tell Eir about his death because he believed she would retire and return home to her son.

“Your mother’s name is Eir Stegalkin. Remember that, but I will tell you what I told Yngvi and Brynhildr. No one must send word to your mother that I am gone. I forbid it. She is capable of great things, as are you. She must not be tempted to stray from her path. Wolf walks beside her. But you mustn’t worry. He walks beside you as well, my son. Never forget that.”

It’s a clumsy way of explaining how Eir had a son that magically appeared in the story with no prior mention, but it does indicate Eir had no contact with Braham when he was a child. He knew who she was but she didn’t spend time with him. So again, a lot of people are projecting their own feelings about their mother’s onto Braham but Braham’s relationship with his mother was nothing like a normal person’s relationship.

You raise some very good points, especially about the Sylvari. However, Braham may be using his mother’s death just as a way to rationalize his own desire for ‘fame’ or prestige. He may just be a young Norn who thinks he knows best.

If I were to offer advice to the writers, I would advise them to keep Eir’s death scene in mind. Eir died well, died the way Norn’s want to die; standing on their feet, looking death in the eye, knowing they met their end at the hands (or spiked tail) of a superior foe. More importantly, she died knowing her son was watching. Don’t waste that.

Braham acts like he had more history than our character with Eir. She was estranged to him until the moment she died. I literally cannot stand him, if there was an option to hunt him down and beat the life out of him, I’d take it.

Chasind.3128:

Braham acts like he had more history than our character with Eir. She was estranged to him until the moment she died. I literally cannot stand him, if there was an option to hunt him down and beat the life out of him, I’d take it.

Maybe there is one. Here’s a theory:

Braham went out alone to hunt some Jormag minions to work off his anger. He was captured by Svanir and is now tied up in a cave somewhere. The Braham that Rox caught up to and we met in Bitterfrost is Icebrood Imitation Braham™, not Real Braham. He is a creation of Svanir sorcery meant to disrupt the only effective dragon-hunting team currently in operation, as well as to betray and dishearten the race that we would expect to provide the majority of the effort in any campaign against Jormag.

So, naturally, we will find out about Imitation Icebrood Braham™, trash him thoroughly, and rescue Real Braham. Not necessarily in that order.

After all, there is precedent for such a thing. Zhaitan killed a charr Pact squad leader and replaced her with a mesmer who sabotaged Pact operations, stole supplies, sent her own troops on fake missions meant to get them killed, and attempted to ruin the Commander’s reputation. Who’s to say Jormag couldn’t take a page out of Zhaitan’s playbook?

This Post Has Been Smiley Captioned for the Humor Impaired

BrettM.9062:

Chasind.3128:

Braham acts like he had more history than our character with Eir. She was estranged to him until the moment she died. I literally cannot stand him, if there was an option to hunt him down and beat the life out of him, I’d take it.

Maybe there is one. Here’s a theory:

Braham went out alone to hunt some Jormag minions to work off his anger. He was captured by Svanir and is now tied up in a cave somewhere. The Braham that Rox caught up to and we met in Bitterfrost is Icebrood Imitation Braham™, not Real Braham. He is a creation of Svanir sorcery meant to disrupt the only effective dragon-hunting team currently in operation, as well as to betray and dishearten the race that we would expect to provide the majority of the effort in any campaign against Jormag.

So, naturally, we will find out about Imitation Icebrood Braham™, trash him thoroughly, and rescue Real Braham. Not necessarily in that order.

After all, there is precedent for such a thing. Zhaitan killed a charr Pact squad leader and replaced her with a mesmer who sabotaged Pact operations, stole supplies, sent her own troops on fake missions meant to get them killed, and attempted to ruin the Commander’s reputation. Who’s to say Jormag couldn’t take a page out of Zhaitan’s playbook?

This Post Has Been Smiley Captioned for the Humor Impaired

The only way, and I mean only, to pull this off is to have Braham and IIB in the same place so we can do the whole who is the real “X” cliche, I mean scene.

a Braham: “Commander, I would never say something laike that to you, We have been through too much”
other Braham “That’s exactly what II Braham would say!”

or

Our PC gets a weapon infusion from Taimi, goes to Hoelbrok, smashes the tooth to bits.
PC: “Who will you follow now”
Braham: “I loosened it”

I dunno…

When Marjory left to keep tabs on Lazerus, it made at least -some- sense…
Lazerus is a wild card in things, and we -should- be keeping tabs on him (the jury is still out for me on if he’s reformed or not… but that’s a different discussion.)
And while she could have been a bit headstrong about it, she didn’t come off in a blatantly disrespecting tone to the Commander. (At least not in my opinion, anyway.)

Braham, on the other hand, is a different matter. As has been said in this thread already, he’s acting like nobody else has lost anyone important to them during the campaigns against the Dragons.
Sure, I get it… He’s angry. And anger makes people say and do things that are probably not the smartest idea’s in the world…
But I would be lying if I said I didn’t want to knock that boy on his duff at the end of that last story instance…

I don’t see anyone being rude to the PC with no reason.

Marjory didn’t even seem rude at all to me. She simply pointed out that the Commander has no right to forbid her to shadow Lazerus. Its not a combat situation where the Commander needs to be fully in control, and despite the suspicions around Lazerus he’s done nothing to suggest he’s an immediate threat. Even if the thought is that he could be a threat down the line, better to keep an eye on him than leave him to his own devices unchecked. Marjory knows the risks and accepts them, its not like she’s flying off with no foresight or thought. Heck, if anything I’d say its the Commander acting out of character here, since the Commander himself has done some risky things in the fight against the dragons as well as allowing others under his Command to do so. I don’t see the Commander trying to forbid Taimi from investigating the Chak, for instance. And who knows what a war between Dragons could cause, but the Commander is all on-board with exploring that plan as well.

As for Braham… yeah. He’s being a jerk to the Commander. But he has reasons. They’re childish, short sighted, and misplaced, and he’s obviously going to screw stuff up. But nonetheless, there’s certainly reasons there. Braham wants someone to blame, Mordremoth is already dead, and the Commander is the next best “surrogate” for that blame. Braham made it quite clear during the early parts of HoT that he wanted to search for Destiny’s Edge exclusively and to heck with everyone else. The Commander rightfully took a stand against that to avoid getting slaughtered while in enemy territory, taking the time to make new allies and help the Pact. But at the same time did end up delaying looking for DE. Which delayed finding Eir, which made her weaker and could have contributed to her death. Anyone thinking logically can see the flaw with being angry about that, but blinded by grief and anger the logic isn’t going to be there. Especially not for Braham, who’s not exactly a “think it through” sort in the first place.

The only oddity I see with Braham is that he didn’t display any sort of anger with the Commander during HoT. Like, yeah, Mordremoth was still alive so he’d be more focused on Mordy than the Commander. But there should have at least been a little blame, a side comment here and there, if they wanted to make the buildup to Season 3 Braham seem more natural. It kind of comes out of left field as it is.

AriaFiresong.7023:

Personally, I think it’s a bit of an insult to Eir’s legend.
Imagine Eir watching him from the mists.
“I fought two dragons, succeeded on the second, got killed going against a third, and did my best to keep my friends together the whole time in the true manner of the spirit of Wolf, and you’re charging in blindly and trying to get your friends killed? Is that how you’re honoring my legend? With divisiveness? Did Raven bless you with the wit and cleverness of a paper towel?”

Unlike what others have said, this is more what a Norn should be thinking. Reputation is everything and Braham is being stupid and dragging his own Mother’s name through the mud as well.