Guild Wars 2

Djinn.9245:

AriaFiresong.7023:

Personally, I think it’s a bit of an insult to Eir’s legend.
Imagine Eir watching him from the mists.
“I fought two dragons, succeeded on the second, got killed going against a third, and did my best to keep my friends together the whole time in the true manner of the spirit of Wolf, and you’re charging in blindly and trying to get your friends killed? Is that how you’re honoring my legend? With divisiveness? Did Raven bless you with the wit and cleverness of a paper towel?”

Unlike what others have said, this is more what a Norn should be thinking. Reputation is everything and Braham is being stupid and dragging his own Mother’s name through the mud as well.

I wouldn’t say stupid, exactly, but behaving like a typical norn. His mother was different and was trying to move norn culture in a more enlightened direction, but Braham is too angry to see that right now or to see that his actions are actually undoing her real legacy.

Why did Destiny’s Edge come to exist in the first place? Because Eir was seeing too many brash young norn doing exactly the kind of thing Braham is doing now, but against one of Jormag’s champions rather than Jormag itself. Those brash young norn were simply being turned into icebrood and sent back to attack Hoelbrak. Eir saw that the only solution was to form alliances, gather intel, make a plan, and assault the champ as a coordinated group. After a false start with just Snaff and Zojja, she recruited Rytlock, Logan, and Caithe to bring her team up to the necessary strength, finally winning the battle.

You would think Braham knows this story, but, if he does, its lessons have clearly been lost on him. Yet this is the same Braham who once spoke to us, back in season 2, about the value in joining an Order. The same Braham who suggested that perhaps norn thinking needed to change. Now he has suddenly regressed and forgotten his own steps along the path to the enlightenment that Eir was trying to bring to the norn.

I can see a character in a story doing this, but not without some foreshadowing. Under the circumstances it seems like a very abrupt reversal to me. Yes, he was grim and burning with anger against Mordy when we met him again in Tangled Depths after Eir’s death, but there was no indication that he would go crazy with grief and switch off his brain in the interval between HoT and season 3. I think we deserve a better explanation for what triggered this change, and perhaps we’ll get it later in the season. Perhaps it’s a setup for some revelation about something that happened while Braham was off alone after setting up the memorial service. We can only hope.

BrettM.9062:

You denied my view on the purpose of the guild while restating it in slightly different words. The purpose of the guild is not to work against the elder dragons, but to seek ways to defeat them? Huh? Seeking ways to defeat them is not working against them?

Slight differences are meaningful. Working against them indicates a buffer, a shield, and defined act of intercepting and thwarting. That’s not what we’re doing. Seeking ways to defeat leads to working against, but it is still distinctly different.

We dropped the whole thing with investigating the bloodstone and the White Mantle the second we heard that Primordus was active. If we consider Lazarus a threat to Aurene, you sure can’t tell it by any action that we’re taking. We just let him walk (float) away. That makes the issues of the bloodstone, the White Mantle, and Lazarus peripheral to what we see as the main issues at this time. We might be worried about these things, but we’ve either left them in other hands (Canach and the Shining Blade) or left them unaddressed in any way. For now, at any rate.

We didn’t Let Lazarus do anything. The only thing in that chamber that was strong enough to stop Lazarus if he chose to act was Aurene, and at that moment, probably not. As for the White Mantel, we’re not done with them, but that immediate situation around the bloodstone has been resolved. And we don’t have enough information to pursue Caudacus. There is nothing left for us to investigate there.

What part of “we were exerting authority outside of the proper sphere of that authority” did YOU miss? We had no right whatsoever to order Marjory not to investigate Lazarus under the circumstances. Advise, yes. Order, no. Again, this is not an in-combat situation or a mission moving through enemy territory. Jory is on her own time, not on any assignment from the guild. Nor is her action interfering with any project in which the guild is actively engaged, since we are doing nothing on those issues.

The part where that’s not true or accurate. That’s not how a guild works. The leader of the guild isn’t just the leader in the middle of a fight. He is the leader for all guild related things, and Lazarus is absolutely a guild related thing. Also, everyone in the guild, which she is simply by virtue of having put us in charge of the group, is the responsibility of the guild leader. So saying, “No, you can’t do this thing that will probably get you killed,” is absolutely in the purview of the player character at that moment. Also her complete dismissal of it is a betrayal of her initial act of putting us in charge in the first place.

Lazarus made not one single threat against Aurene. He did not “invade”, he helped defend her. If this was part of some nefarious plot on his part, then it is certainly vital that somebody keep tabs on him and investigate his activities. Is there someone better qualified than Marjory the investigator to do this? And how does her doing so “put the entire team in danger”?

He was not welcomed there. He was a dangerous being whose very presence was a direct threat. He didn’t ask, he just appeared. That is an invasion. If someone breaks out of prison and then comes into your house because the door happens to be open, that’s still a home invasion. That’s how that word works.

Furthermore, Lazarus did not “steal” the magic from the bloodstone. He was summoned there by a bunch of White Mantle nincompoops trying to resurrect him. He prevented a horrible disaster that could have affected several major cities in Tyria. (Assuming General Soulkeeper is correct in stating that the explosion could have hit LA if it had not reversed, then what are the chances that Rata Sum, the Grove, and Divinity’s Reach would have gone untouched? All three are closer to Bloodstone Fen than is LA.)

I will admit that I don’t know how that particular bit of magic works, because no one outside of the writers really can, but I don’t have any reason to believe he couldn’t have done it differently, possibly even putting the energy back where it came from. Also, we have only his word and a vaguely understood shadow recreation of how it went down. Since we have no reason to trust him there’s no reason to believe this wasn’t always his plan. It certainly seemed like it was always how it was supposed to go down based on the journals. So steal still seems appropriate to me.

What always bothered me was my warrior and main is a Norn. He is a Norn with the ideals I chose in the beginning of wanting power to defeat his peoples ancient foes, and dealing with things with ferocity and his spirit guide being the bear.

For one My character would have the same Ideals toward respect as Braham, he is of the same culture and race. He ALSO would know what making a new guild would do to braham and how he would take it, as well Eir’s death would of hit him even HARDER than braham. My character spent the majority of his story with her pretty much, and at times I wondered if she was straight out coming onto my character. There was some lines of text that hinted at there being a more than “Casual” friends thing, perhaps my character could of had feelings for her? I don’t know. Wish I could of chose.

Why did my Charr Druid and My Norn warrior handle the situation almost exactly the same? My warrior is supposedly this hulked up werebear berserker, who gets kittened off and rips the heads off of his enemys right? Why is he letting Braham talk kitten to him like this, this is NOT how a Viking would handle it. There should of been a HUGE difference in how this conversation went regarding everything, maybe even a spat. The outcome could of been the same sure maybe rox breaking it up, but just letting it happen? HELL no, the Norn as a people dont let anyone not even their family talk like that. Thems be fighting words, especially when my character is grieving for his “Possible” in my personal story love interest, and his like best friend who he fought through the first dragon with. GOOD GOD let there be some diversity among the races, at least in to plot. You took my bear form from me but now you want me to act like some, well mannered understanding noble guy? No I was ready to kill someone over having my ancestors horn, and that’s before knowing what he was doing with it. This change is WAAAAAAAY to drastic…

The human interaction is fine, humans dont get Norn culture which was the same in guild wars 1. Charr would be aprehensive and probably tell braham to shut up, might result in a clash of words. Maybe even a little tussle but idk, depends on the charr I guess (( like blood-legion charr vs Ash legion charr reactions)). Sylvari would feel terrible as it is, probably would act similarly to the humans. Asuran would probably stick their tongues out at him, and make fun of him honestly.

And what about that line “Sounds like human problems, which I just dont care about”. NONE of our PC’s had anything to say about that, a human would for sure I mean come on we fight over the smallest of things. Telling a Human their anti-christ has returned, their version of terrorists have also returned with no certainty of resolution that you dont care? Man again fighting words.

Thornwolf.9721:

…
Why did my Charr Druid and My Norn warrior handle the situation almost exactly the same?
…

Same reason like when my Sylvari druid seemed to care about not only Eir more than about Trahearne (knew the dude since leaving the pod, had to kill him, but apparently no big deal) or about the Pale Tree (yup, who would actually care about their badly wounded comatose parent/goddes figure, right? let’s just kite off to Shiverpeaks to a Norn burial).

I learned years ago that GW story telling is disjointed with inconsistent characters. Once you come to that conclusion, you can not get hung up on things like ‘details’.

Shiren.9532:

How are we supposed to take seriously an estranged son’s grief over his mother’s death when almost everyone else in the current story has suffered far greater loss across two dragon campaigns (and more) and they all soldier on without even mentioning it?

Wow.

You can’t compare grief. People feel what they feel. Who can say what constitutes “far greater loss?” Is it worse to lose a sister than a mother that you were just getting to know? Is it worse to lose a true love or to lose a child? Is someone a lesser person because they can’t just “soldier on”?

And who says that they don’t mention it? Everyone is Destiny’s Edge spends 22.3% of their time blaming each other for Snaff’s death, Marjory mentions Brenda nearly 100% of the time she talks about anything personal (which is not that often).

I don’t really mean to defend the writing, because I think the PC’s reaction to both Marjory and Braham is out-of-character — normally the Commander is actually able to talk and even be diplomatic; the response to Braham was especially awkward.

My point here is that grief takes people in different ways. Some people don’t cry at all when their parent dies and then get upset when a father is killed in a TV murder mystery, while even some adults will lose it completely when a pet dies. There’s no “correct” way to grieve.

BrettM.9062:

Djinn.9245:

AriaFiresong.7023:

Personally, I think it’s a bit of an insult to Eir’s legend.
Imagine Eir watching him from the mists.
“I fought two dragons, succeeded on the second, got killed going against a third, and did my best to keep my friends together the whole time in the true manner of the spirit of Wolf, and you’re charging in blindly and trying to get your friends killed? Is that how you’re honoring my legend? With divisiveness? Did Raven bless you with the wit and cleverness of a paper towel?”

Unlike what others have said, this is more what a Norn should be thinking. Reputation is everything and Braham is being stupid and dragging his own Mother’s name through the mud as well.

I wouldn’t say stupid, exactly, but behaving like a typical norn. His mother was different and was trying to move norn culture in a more enlightened direction, but Braham is too angry to see that right now or to see that his actions are actually undoing her real legacy.

Why did Destiny’s Edge come to exist in the first place? Because Eir was seeing too many brash young norn doing exactly the kind of thing Braham is doing now, but against one of Jormag’s champions rather than Jormag itself. Those brash young norn were simply being turned into icebrood and sent back to attack Hoelbrak. Eir saw that the only solution was to form alliances, gather intel, make a plan, and assault the champ as a coordinated group. After a false start with just Snaff and Zojja, she recruited Rytlock, Logan, and Caithe to bring her team up to the necessary strength, finally winning the battle.

You would think Braham knows this story, but, if he does, its lessons have clearly been lost on him. Yet this is the same Braham who once spoke to us, back in season 2, about the value in joining an Order. The same Braham who suggested that perhaps norn thinking needed to change. Now he has suddenly regressed and forgotten his own steps along the path to the enlightenment that Eir was trying to bring to the norn.

I can see a character in a story doing this, but not without some foreshadowing. Under the circumstances it seems like a very abrupt reversal to me. Yes, he was grim and burning with anger against Mordy when we met him again in Tangled Depths after Eir’s death, but there was no indication that he would go crazy with grief and switch off his brain in the interval between HoT and season 3. I think we deserve a better explanation for what triggered this change, and perhaps we’ll get it later in the season. Perhaps it’s a setup for some revelation about something that happened while Braham was off alone after setting up the memorial service. We can only hope.

Perhaps this is typical Norn behavior, but even if it is I am very dissatisfied with it. I don’t want to see my heroes go all emo and whiny even if it is normal. This is fantasy, not reality.

All I read is a bunch of whining kids, ranting because Braham did something greater than anything they’ve ever done (cracked the Jormag tooth all you whining little kids have tried to do for all this time). So now they don’t like him because he can think for himself, take his own decisions, while you can’t do neither of them because you’re only capable of doing what the writers allow you to do.

Djinn.9245:

Perhaps this is typical Norn behavior, but even if it is I am very dissatisfied with it. I don’t want to see my heroes go all emo and whiny even if it is normal. This is fantasy, not reality.

I agree that it was dissatisfying. The dialogue felt awkward — “all emo” is a pretty good description. I’m okay with the idea of Braham lashing out because he’s grieving and too macho to say so, but … yeah, it seemed whiny rather than Braham-y.

Whatever stupid reasons you guys have to defend braham like “grief doesn’t have to make sense” and “different cultures have different ways of grieving” doesn’t make sense. So, if someone from other religion or culture than your own decide to go on killing spree because he lost his mother and now that’s his way of dealing with grief, you would defend that person? I don’t care what culture, everyone should know what’s right and what’s wrong. Everyone should know killing innocents is wrong for example. Everyone also should understand that commander and others lost friends and loved ones too. Culture doesn’t have anything to do with this. Your brain does. Braham being a norn doesn’t matter and doesn’t excuse him from being a freaking idiot. He has brain, right? He can think on his own, right? He is capable of making decisions, right? So, he should make better decisions and not be an angry, selfish, ignorant emo that refuses to listen and think about what his acts will bring to others.

Pache.9406:

All I read is a bunch of whining kids, ranting because Braham did something greater than anything they’ve ever done (cracked the Jormag tooth all you whining little kids have tried to do for all this time). So now they don’t like him because he can think for himself, take his own decisions, while you can’t do neither of them because you’re only capable of doing what the writers allow you to do.

You are aware that Braham can only do what the writers allow him to do as well, right? He is, after all, a fictional character, not a real person, right?

Pache.9406:

All I read is a bunch of whining kids, ranting because Braham did something greater than anything they’ve ever done (cracked the Jormag tooth all you whining little kids have tried to do for all this time). So now they don’t like him because he can think for himself, take his own decisions, while you can’t do neither of them because you’re only capable of doing what the writers allow you to do.

Thinking by himself and making his own decision? Hahaha, being stuborn emo kid is barely a decision, let alone a good one.
You obviously haven’t played a game at all if you think he did something greater than all others and can make proper decisions. Being an angry kid that can’t even think properly, ignoring all his friends and acting like he is the only one hurt by death of his mother is not a great thing, I’m sorry. Git gud at being a white knight.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Djinn.9245:

Perhaps this is typical Norn behavior, but even if it is I am very dissatisfied with it. I don’t want to see my heroes go all emo and whiny even if it is normal. This is fantasy, not reality.

I agree that it was dissatisfying. The dialogue felt awkward — “all emo” is a pretty good description. I’m okay with the idea of Braham lashing out because he’s grieving and too macho to say so, but … yeah, it seemed whiny rather than Braham-y.

My bad. I did not mean to imply that Braham’s “emo” behavior was typical for norn. I was simply referring to his idea of going up against Jormag with an uncoordinated lynch mob that has no information on or analysis of Jormag’s new abilities, no chain of command, no support structure (intel, supply, med services, etc.), and no plan other than getting to the dragon and hitting it until it dies.

I fully agree that going “all emo” is not typical at all. I can’t think of any norn offhand that has done anything similar. Just the mere act of shaving his head after Eir’s death seemed a little odd. However, he was acting normally otherwise, so I chalked it up as maybe being some norn custom, maybe akin to wearing a black armband.

I am curious to know how Braham thinks he’s going to get himself and his mob through the Bitter Cold, which surely surrounds Jormag itself, or if he’s even yet realized that this is going to be a problem. Right now the Commander seems to be the only non-Svanir in the world who knows how to make an elixir to survive it. Even the kodan and the artic quaggan don’t know. I wonder what will happen when Braham realizes this, especially after he made it pretty clear he thought it was a bone-headed stunt for the Commander to trick the Svanir into giving it to him.

Pache.9406:

All I read is a bunch of whining kids, ranting because Braham did something greater than anything they’ve ever done (cracked the Jormag tooth all you whining little kids have tried to do for all this time). So now they don’t like him because he can think for himself, take his own decisions, while you can’t do neither of them because you’re only capable of doing what the writers allow you to do.

Perhaps you are reading some other comments than the ones I’m reading – I don’t see any complaints that Braham cracked the tooth. I see complaints that BEFORE Braham cracked the tooth he acted like a whiny, emo kid toward the character that Anet has designated the leader (the Player Character in case that isn’t clear). Tell me where in any Heroic tale that is considered a good thing?

Pache.9406:

All I read is a bunch of whining kids, ranting because Braham did something greater than anything they’ve ever done (cracked the Jormag tooth all you whining little kids have tried to do for all this time). So now they don’t like him because he can think for himself, take his own decisions, while you can’t do neither of them because you’re only capable of doing what the writers allow you to do.

I love everything about this. Apparently I am also the only one who understood this was a joke, because obviously it’s a joke.

I just kind of Wish my Norn could be as aggressive, its kind of annoying that the options in the beginning of the game dont mean crap. Your a norn of bear? So what those animal shapes suck. You chose ferocity? Does not mean crap.

First they take the norns shapeshifting and make it completely useless, then they make us all have a kittening blanket we all hide under. The “I am the commander, noble and proud blah blah blah”. kitten it I made a norn because in my eyes they were the coolest race, and your making me feel like im just a big human. Let me be the norn from guild wars 1, the ones who stayed in animal shape while in combat. The ones who did not take to anyone threatening them… let my character feel like a Character who is different than the others? I feel like im just… some other human.

Braham is still basically a brash teenager I suspect that the story is going to go that he is going to run off after Jormag get in trouble and the rest of the team will have to save him. It is foreshadowed in NPC dialog when you visit Hoelbrak that alludes to the tooth as a tool to keep brash children from running off and dyeing trying to make there legend by trying to slay something that is too big for the norn to fight alone.

I just worry that he will get Rox hurt in the process. i just wish Anet would avoid the brooding emo characters they are cleshe and boreing

Pache.9406:

All I read is a bunch of whining kids, ranting because Braham did something greater than anything they’ve ever done.

My character developed a close, personal friendship with Eir, and saved her life. Can he do that?

I actualy really love how Braham took the commander down a notch, would love to see more arguments. Same with Majory, the reconsiliation could be interesting!

On that note… uhm… why is Caithe still alive..?

Krinstin.6287:

I actualy really love how Braham took the commander down a notch, would love to see more arguments. Same with Majory, the reconsiliation could be interesting!

On that note… uhm… why is Caithe still alive..?

Sorry, I don’t see whining at someone as “taking them down a notch”. That would entail scoring some points which Braham did not. None of his points made any sense.

Baffling someone with bullwinkle is not “taking them down a notch”. Marjory, OTOH, did put a little stick in the Commander’s wheels (quite justifiably, IMHO). But the only proper reconciliation there would be an apology to her by the Commander.

Inb4 plot twist: Braham turns into the next edgelord villian.

Really Bad story telling. Braham acting like a child is Dishonoring his own Mother’s Name. makes me wish it was a do whatever you want story so I could kill Braham. It did however kill my interest in continuing the living story.

Characters, NPCs, behaving in a manner that evokes an emotional reaction from player and player character, in character, is not bad storytelling. Characters behaving in a manner that is disliked, or even unlikable, is not bad storytelling. Hated and hateable characters can be much better components of a good story than those with whom we always agree, get along with, or even love.

What is bad storytelling is characters, even the PC, not being able to, allowed to, respond appropriately to the behavior.

Ashen.2907:

Characters, NPCs, behaving in a manner that evokes an emotional reaction from player and player character, in character, is not bad storytelling. Characters behaving in a manner that is disliked, or even unlikable, is not bad storytelling. Hated and hateable characters can be much better components of a good story than those with whom we always agree, get along with, or even love.

What is bad storytelling is characters, even the PC, not being able to, allowed to, respond appropriately to the behavior.

Sorry, but evoking the response, “Why is he acting like this, and why am I letting him act like this, this is frustrating and annoying,” is not the same thing as evoking an emotional reaction and being disliked.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Ashen.2907:

Characters, NPCs, behaving in a manner that evokes an emotional reaction from player and player character, in character, is not bad storytelling. Characters behaving in a manner that is disliked, or even unlikable, is not bad storytelling. Hated and hateable characters can be much better components of a good story than those with whom we always agree, get along with, or even love.

What is bad storytelling is characters, even the PC, not being able to, allowed to, respond appropriately to the behavior.

Sorry, but evoking the response, “Why is he acting like this, and why am I letting him act like this, this is frustrating and annoying,” is not the same thing as evoking an emotional reaction and being disliked.

The question “why is he acting like this” has certainly started some stimulating and thought-provoking discussion. Is that not good storytelling?

The question “why am I letting him act like this” likewise deserves thought and may have a perfectly good answer that simply has not yet been addressed in a story that is not yet complete. How can we know whether the storytelling is good until we have the story’s answer?

When a child throws a screaming tantrum and hurls nasty accusations, a wise parent does not descend to the child’s level and start screaming back. Nor does the wise parent try to give instruction or force a rational conversation at such a time, since the child is not ready to BE rational or accept instruction. The wise parent lets the child stomp off to their room and cool down a bit before trying to address the problem. I’m much happier with a Commander who is acting grown up instead of mirroring Braham’s rage and frustration. Aren’t you? It sure seemed like an appropriate response to me.

Sure, it might give the grownup feelings of frustration to restrain themselves in the face of such behavior. I’m sure it would make most of us feel better if the Commander had beaten Braham into jelly or shouted back some hard truths. But neither course would have done any good right then and would likely have just widened the rift, leaving Braham with a simmering resentment and feeling of self-righteousness knowing that his insults had provoked such a response.

How the situation will be resolved has yet to be revealed. When we have the whole story, we will be in a much better position to judge the quality of the storytelling.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Ashen.2907:

Characters, NPCs, behaving in a manner that evokes an emotional reaction from player and player character, in character, is not bad storytelling. Characters behaving in a manner that is disliked, or even unlikable, is not bad storytelling. Hated and hateable characters can be much better components of a good story than those with whom we always agree, get along with, or even love.

What is bad storytelling is characters, even the PC, not being able to, allowed to, respond appropriately to the behavior.

Sorry, but evoking the response, “Why is he acting like this, and why am I letting him act like this, this is frustrating and annoying,” is not the same thing as evoking an emotional reaction and being disliked.

Actually, if there is something going on behind Braham’s behavior, to be further discovered in some future chapter, such a reaction could be decent storytelling. If the answer to your why questions is some arbitrary impulse by the writer, then no it isn’t good story.

Personally, based on my perceptions of the storytelling so far, I doubt that there is much depth to Braham’s behavior. I very much expect that he is being a …. because.

BrettM.9062:

When a child throws a screaming tantrum and hurls nasty accusations, a wise parent does not descend to the child’s level and start screaming back. Nor does the wise parent try to give instruction or force a rational conversation at such a time, since the child is not ready to BE rational or accept instruction. The wise parent lets the child stomp off to their room and cool down a bit before trying to address the problem.

For the most part I agree with you, but I would not mind the power to actually treat Braham like a petulant child if he is going to act as such. To follow your analogy, perhaps we should be able to take away some of his privileges, send him to his room for a time out, or something of the sort. “No ale for you for a month Braham!”

Just playing Season 3 for the third time and can’t even begin to describe how annoying and childish I find Taimi’s newly acquired “self-confidence” that is filled with arrogance which always results in her giving the Commander funny per names (“Poo-bah” anyone?). I liked her better when she was younger.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Sorry, but evoking the response, “Why is he acting like this, and why am I letting him act like this, this is frustrating and annoying,” is not the same thing as evoking an emotional reaction and being disliked.

My response as a filthy casual was, “Why is this kid that I don’t even know or care about acting like this, and why am I even wasting time watching this crap, this is frustrating and annoying”. Yes, not playing the LS is a choice, and I should have gone with it.

I think part of the problem is we’re in the middle of a storyline here. We don’t have all of the info by design.

It’s like complaining that you don’t know what’s going on in the middle of Westworld or you don’t know someone’s plan after 3 episodes of Game of Thrones. It’s not supposed to all make sense until the end.

And having just read Dune which tells you clearly (and repeatedly) whats going to happen to each character right from the beginning (including introducing one guy as ‘the traitor Doctor Yueh’ because later on he’s going to betray the main characters) I personally think it makes for much better storytelling when you don’t know what a person is thinking or what their motivations are until it’s revealed as part of the story.

Of course the downside of that (especially for a story spaced out over several months) is that you spend a lot of time not understanding what’s going on. It was the same in Season 1 with all the seemingly random attacks by different groups (which lead to people repeatedly claiming Anet had forgotten or abandoned the idea of fighting dragons and were suddenly incapable of writing an overarching storyline), and vague hints at Scarlet.

Then in Season 2 when early on all we knew is 2 separate sylvari had been driven mad by Mordremoth and now Caithe was acting crazy. It was only right at the end when we found out why Mordremoth affected sylvari in particular. Before that it was ‘obviously’ just because they were Anet’s favourite or least favourite race (depending on who you asked).

I don’t know, maybe some people prefer what I think of as old fashioned storytelling where you’re told exactly what everyone is doing right from the start, the good guys are always good and never do anything wrong at all, the bad guys are always pure evil and never have any motivation other than to be evil and everything is always clear and explicit at all times. But personally I prefer this ambiguity and wondering what’s going to happen much more.

On a second thought, Danikat is right. Do any of veterans remember what happened to Scarlet? Of course the story-telling was just crawling and it was not an example of a perfect story, but we acted so harshly towards every patch (flame and frost, aetherblade, toxic alliance, etc) because we wanted answers right off the bat. If they had given us the answers, Scarlet wouldn’t look so memorable like she rightfully is now. We unveiled the puppermaster and the timing was very nice. Scarlet arc was belittled because of the way it was conveyed in-game, but the way things weren’t revealed so soon is what made the story so great, and then we stepped into her madness. Everything just flowed quite good story-wise, and I hope they don’t throw answers too easily at us, it would reduce the drama/mystery to ashes.

The writing for the Scarlet arc is disliked by many, as noted on these forums and in game, even after it was finished. Truly awful stuff IMO.

I dont need to know Braham’s hidden motivation. Dont need the bad guys to always wear black hats and the good guys to always wear white. Mystery and story that develop through revelation over time are just fine. If we look closely at negative posts about the Braham situation we see that most are not reacting just to the perception of how Braham is behaving but largely, instead, to how we are required to react to that behavior. If there is some hidden, nefarious, to be revealed in a future chapter, reason for Braham to be acting as he is (oh no he has been replaced by one of the pod people!) then so be it. Fine. No problem. But the storytelling will still have been poor for requiring the other characters to just accept it, essentially ignore it, because….hmmm….just because.

Ashen.2907:

Characters, NPCs, behaving in a manner that evokes an emotional reaction from player and player character, in character, is not bad storytelling. Characters behaving in a manner that is disliked, or even unlikable, is not bad storytelling. Hated and hateable characters can be much better components of a good story than those with whom we always agree, get along with, or even love.

What is bad storytelling is characters, even the PC, not being able to, allowed to, respond appropriately to the behavior.

That’s like saying No man’s sky is a good game, because a lot of people got emotional and dislike/hate it. You are trying too hard, I think.

serialkicker.5274:

Ashen.2907:

Characters, NPCs, behaving in a manner that evokes an emotional reaction from player and player character, in character, is not bad storytelling. Characters behaving in a manner that is disliked, or even unlikable, is not bad storytelling. Hated and hateable characters can be much better components of a good story than those with whom we always agree, get along with, or even love.

What is bad storytelling is characters, even the PC, not being able to, allowed to, respond appropriately to the behavior.

That’s like saying No man’s sky is a good game, because a lot of people got emotional and dislike/hate it. You are trying too hard, I think.

Nothing at all like your analogy. Note that I referenced in character reaction to in character elements. All I am saying is that an unlikable character is not necessarily bad storytelling. A character that we are meant to dislike can be part of good storytelling. I dont think that is what is happening here. As Ive said before, including in the post you quoted (did you read it in its entirety?), I think that this situation is an example of poor writing.

Ashen.2907:

serialkicker.5274:

Ashen.2907:

Characters, NPCs, behaving in a manner that evokes an emotional reaction from player and player character, in character, is not bad storytelling. Characters behaving in a manner that is disliked, or even unlikable, is not bad storytelling. Hated and hateable characters can be much better components of a good story than those with whom we always agree, get along with, or even love.

What is bad storytelling is characters, even the PC, not being able to, allowed to, respond appropriately to the behavior.

That’s like saying No man’s sky is a good game, because a lot of people got emotional and dislike/hate it. You are trying too hard, I think.

Nothing at all like your analogy. Note that I referenced in character reaction to in character elements. All I am saying is that an unlikable character is not necessarily bad storytelling. A character that we are meant to dislike can be part of good storytelling. I dont think that is what is happening here. As Ive said before, including in the post you quoted (did you read it in its entirety?), I think that this situation is an example of poor writing.

Yeah, agree. Maybe I misunderstood you (apologies), because your point was quite “obvious”. We all know bad guys can be charming, fun, interesting and whatnot while we hate them at the same time.
So in this case, it seems they made Braham act like that for no good reason, just for the sake of drama. His behaviour absolutely makes no sense to me. He is free to grieve the death of his mother, but the way he reacts… Acting like commander and company weren’t affected by her death (I’d say even more so than he was), like they haven’t avenged her, like it was commander’s fault she died (she literally died after we were reunited), being angry selfish emo because he gets no glory, so he will recklesly charge ahead and put people in danger, just because he can’t wait to save “other mothers” and because he want to kill dragon by himself (acting as like commander solo’d two dragons)… too much cringe and edginess. If the story doesn’t get better fast, i will be very disappointed.

IndigoSundown.5419:

To me, this is a symptom of an apparently necessary evil. In order to foster the story, “I” end up choosing things that I would not do, say things I would not say, etc. It’s nearly impossible for me to form any bond, emotional, or even cognitive, with my character when I would never have chosen most of my actions or words. ANet should look at Bioware stories. While the choices are somewhat simplistic, and usually end up in the same place, at least there is some choice. In ANet stories, it feels like I am watching a movie that makes little to no sense to me, while NPC’s emote about various things, and while nothing I want or feel makes the slightest difference to the outcome.

But wasn’t a complaint about the game early on on how the Personal Story lacked substance, and was largely attributed to the fact that the choices you made didn’t really matter in the long run, and thus the effort and resources put toward them was minimal. I’ve even seen an argument made that the scenarios themselves only existed because a choice was needed, and as a result, the writing quality had to suffer in order to be opened ended enough for the player to feel like they have control. Even in early HOT missions, all the choices converged to the same result, and even the picking NPCs to accompany you was barely worth the changes in witty banter,

Case in point….. the Polarization of Tybalt’s arc, and the player base’s animosity toward Treherne. Both of these are a direct result of how the player are introduced to these characters, and exposes some very big issues with how the fragmentation of the personal story ended up doing more harm then good from a story telling stand point.

Its been 3 years… so I’m not gonna bother with Spoiler tags given this is all Pact Tyria, and we’re in the Living story forum….. if you didn’t know by now that we kicked Zhaitan’s kitten , then even knowing who Brahm is means you’re a time traveler.

Anyway….. I picked Vigil and got Warmaster Forgal as a mentor…. and I didn’t even bother finishing the personal story once it got to Orr, because it didn’t feel like the story could keep my attention. Forgal dying simply wasn’t emotionally impact, despite the attempts to make him like a surrogate father figure. So over the next year, I’d see on and off references by players to Tybalt…. I had no idea who he was, other then a mini pet that shared the name. I eventually stopped playing after South sun (which I’m still regretting, after learning about the whole Scarlet story arc), and came back half a year later. Again I came across the references to Tybalt and Apples, and decided to look him up. I found out hes on the Whispers story arc, and decided I may as well do the Personal story for achievements.

But what surprised me was how well written, and how relateable a character he ended up being. He came across as a good buddy to have, and I could finally see why so many people remember him over any other character in the whole of the personal story line, other then Treherne becoming Marshal. And that dialog exchange at Claw Island…. that actually hurt.

Now on the flip side of all this, you have Treherne. Sylvari was never a popular race choice, so most players didn’t get exposed to him until the formation of the Pact. The problem here is that his entire existance within the story ONLY makes sense if you had played the Sylvari, and had picked the story path that gives you the back story on Caladbolg. Its as if the the players, regardless of how they got to that point, were expected to understand several things about Treherne, the Wyld Hunt, and his activity prior to Claw Island. Without that knowledge, Treherne does really feel like they forced him into the limelight, despite the player essentially being the hero of the story; and I can easily understand why players never had much respect for him.

Whats happening now with LWS3 is the writers quickly trying to tie up a bunch of loose ends, because the Commander is probably going to be isolated (either by failure, or division of duty) by the time the new expansion story gets under way. They’re going to pull a Logan with him, they’re gonna use Aurene as the catalyst, and the reason for it is they’ll be using a diversity of resources for the upcoming dragon fight. The Pact was 1 large military force when they went against Zhaitan, reduced to a Guerilla force for Modremoth, a barely holding together as they try to find a new Marshal. When its all said and done, there is going to be several factions in play, and spread out against the various dragons. And the Commander’s role in all of this is juggling the fostering of Aurene, while simultaneously trying to make headway against whichever dragon becomes the most immediate threat.

Danikat.8537:

I think part of the problem is we’re in the middle of a storyline here. We don’t have all of the info by design.

It’s like complaining that you don’t know what’s going on in the middle of Westworld or you don’t know someone’s plan after 3 episodes of Game of Thrones. It’s not supposed to all make sense until the end.

Not sure who you’re responding to, but most of the comments I see are complaining that Braham is acting like an emo, whiny kid and complaining that The Commander is allowing this brat to treat him as a doormat. I don’t see alot of complaints that we don’t know the end of the story. Whether or not the writers have purposefully made this situation, I don’t like it. And I don’t have to wait for the end of the story to not like it.

I was really disappointed with the rude behavior of Braham and Marjory and the lack of backbone given to my character during this story. My character has had to deal with Taimi’s continual evesdropping and interruptions and disrespect by many NPCs. In Bitterfrost he has even been lectured by a Kodan. And his response has been … nothing.

Who is in charge of this group? It certainly doesn’t seem to be my character.

starlinvf.1358:

IndigoSundown.5419:

To me, this is a symptom of an apparently necessary evil. In order to foster the story, “I” end up choosing things that I would not do, say things I would not say, etc. It’s nearly impossible for me to form any bond, emotional, or even cognitive, with my character when I would never have chosen most of my actions or words. ANet should look at Bioware stories. While the choices are somewhat simplistic, and usually end up in the same place, at least there is some choice. In ANet stories, it feels like I am watching a movie that makes little to no sense to me, while NPC’s emote about various things, and while nothing I want or feel makes the slightest difference to the outcome.

But wasn’t a complaint about the game early on on how the Personal Story lacked substance … — snipped to fit — … while simultaneously trying to make headway against whichever dragon becomes the most immediate threat.

Heh… I liked Forgal a lot. I didn’t mind Tybalt, but he was the least interesting of the three Order mentors to me. The thing for me is, I could take all three of them seriously. Though I gritted my teeth at some of the things Trahearne said and did, I could even take him seriously. I felt invested in that story much more so than the PS since Season 2 rolled in. I just can’t take the antics of Kasmeer, Rox, et al seriously. They feel by and large like someone said, "Let’s make some off-the-wall wannabe hero characters and use hackneyed emotional hooks to make them ‘interesting.’ "

While I also felt shoehorned in the PS, I accept that as an artifact of it being an MMO story. I could accept that my character was working with the Order and later Pact people because they seemed to me to at least be competent adults. Just the choice of three Orders and the attendant NPC’s meant if I did not like one, I could try the other branch, as you did. With the current lot, there isn’t even that choice. Were it actually me in the LS2-3 episodes instead of a scripted placeholder, I’d dump all of them and find more competent (and believable) alternatives under the hypothesis that I could not possibly do worse.

I guess that goes to show that different people like different things. Maybe I just prefer characters who are more understated to those that are badly overacted.

I, too, found it easier to bond with Tybalt than the others, but I didn’t mind Forgal and Seiran. The main problem with the Order arcs is that they were all far too short to really show a bond forming between the PC and the mentor. You whizzed from initiate to Lightbringer/Warmaster/Magister at warp speed, then two seconds later your mentor was dead. Blink once and you missed the whole arc. I really wished ANet had been able to extend that part of the story and make us care about our mentors, rather than telling us later that we did.

That’s a fair point about the length of the Order arcs. I guess I’m used to that in MMO’s, and so tend to form attachments quicker if I find the character to be interesting. With Braham, Et al, it’s very hard to suspend my disbelief that I’m tolerating them, never mind that I’m told they’re my “friends.”

Marjory and Braham are both grieving. Marjory lost her sister, Braham lost his mother. The first stage is denial. The second is anger. Pretty sure they are both in this space presently. Thus, the grumpy disrespect is completely understandable.

Marjory might be moving into the ‘bargaining’ stage with the whole Lazarus thing. Her bargaining stage may be searching for a means of resurrecting her sister, this the curiosity around the Mursaat’s rebirth.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Marjory and Braham are both grieving. Marjory lost her sister, Braham lost his mother. The first stage is denial. The second is anger. Pretty sure they are both in this space presently. Thus, the grumpy disrespect is completely understandable.

Marjory might be moving into the ‘bargaining’ stage with the whole Lazarus thing. Her bargaining stage may be searching for a means of resurrecting her sister, this the curiosity around the Mursaat’s rebirth.

This is Heroic Fantasy – I don’t want my Heroes to be “normal” if “normal” = whiney, disrespectful, etc. And the star of the story (my character) shouldn’t be a doormat in Heroic Fantasy either.

Djinn.9245:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Marjory and Braham are both grieving. Marjory lost her sister, Braham lost his mother. The first stage is denial. The second is anger. Pretty sure they are both in this space presently. Thus, the grumpy disrespect is completely understandable.

Marjory might be moving into the ‘bargaining’ stage with the whole Lazarus thing. Her bargaining stage may be searching for a means of resurrecting her sister, this the curiosity around the Mursaat’s rebirth.

This is Heroic Fantasy – I don’t want my Heroes to be “normal” if “normal” = whiney, disrespectful, etc. And the star of the story (my character) shouldn’t be a doormat in Heroic Fantasy either.

Never read much fantasy have you?
Or watched any?

The “hero” is not always the shining star everyone respects and listens to. Sometimes in order for a character to grow, mistakes have to be made.

Grief definitely has various stages but they don’t happen chronologically. If they did, I would have slept through a few. Another thing, when anger kicks in it is not directed at the people around you because you know that they are grieving too. They, like you, are trying to cope. The anger is directed at whatever deity you believe in.

Braham’s behavior is closer to that of an injured animal lashing out at anyone and everything. He’s made it clear that he has no use for the player character or his/her concerns.

I don’t think it was necessary to portray the player character in such a weak manner in order to make whatever point the writer(s) were trying to make. I can’t even imagine what point they were trying to make. It was a choice the writer(s) made and it’s one that we will have to wait to see how it evolves.

I also know that it’s hard to tell a real story given the constraints of games. That’s why we’ll just have to wait and see how it all turns out.

I have, in fact, read and watched a lot of fantasy over the years. Some of it was good but an awful lot of it was quite bad. Stories with characters with anti-social behavior and lack of respect has been a writing trend for some time. We seem to be playing through just such a story.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Djinn.9245:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Marjory and Braham are both grieving. Marjory lost her sister, Braham lost his mother. The first stage is denial. The second is anger. Pretty sure they are both in this space presently. Thus, the grumpy disrespect is completely understandable.

Marjory might be moving into the ‘bargaining’ stage with the whole Lazarus thing. Her bargaining stage may be searching for a means of resurrecting her sister, this the curiosity around the Mursaat’s rebirth.

This is Heroic Fantasy – I don’t want my Heroes to be “normal” if “normal” = whiney, disrespectful, etc. And the star of the story (my character) shouldn’t be a doormat in Heroic Fantasy either.

Never read much fantasy have you?
Or watched any?

The “hero” is not always the shining star everyone respects and listens to. Sometimes in order for a character to grow, mistakes have to be made.

Perhaps you could reply to what I actually wrote. I specified Heroic Fantasy for a reason.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

The “hero” is not always the shining star everyone respects and listens to. Sometimes in order for a character to grow, mistakes have to be made.

I absolutely agree.

Also, Braham is young, stubborn, erratic, volatile. Typical for some troubled 18-25 year olds with mother issues/complex. Why do people have such a problem for a character how he is? I mean don’t you like Game of Throes? People were terrified by characters like Joffrey or Ramsay but they also loved the show be cause of such characters.

Characters being just black or white are boring. Of course Braham is annying, but so is it in the real world. You can’t expect people acting as you wish, they are individuals with good and bad days, changing mood etc.

ProtoGunner.4953:

Also, Braham is young, stubborn, erratic, volatile. Typical for some troubled 18-25 year olds with mother issues/complex.

And he’s got more issues than that. His father died when he was, what, seven? Kids that age often feel abandoned and resentful of a parental death at some level, even when they still have one parent caring for them. (I’ve had some personal experience with this, since my youngest sister was about that age when our father died. She was a bit of a handful as a teen and young adult, to put it mildly.) But Braham also found out at the same time that he had a living, absentee mother. A double abandonment whammy. It’s a wonder that Braham isn’t even more messed up than he is.

A well-written printed story or movie would make such things clear. I can see how it would be hard to do in a game, however, without even more expository dialog than we already have. Players tend to hate too much yak-yak, and we’ve already seen some complaints about this regarding the last episode. You have to read between the lines and put things together that were presented piecemeal over the course of years, rather than in a few pages of a book that can be read in hours or a movie that is a single two-hour experience.

It isn’t (for me) that Braham is unrealistic. He’s an angst-ridden emo teen. I get it. What’s unrealistic is that in all of Tyria I don’t have better options for membership in a squad that is spearheading the fight against the creatures that threaten the existence of the five races. That’s not how I’d run a war.