Guild Wars 2

Djinn.9245:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Djinn.9245:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Marjory and Braham are both grieving. Marjory lost her sister, Braham lost his mother. The first stage is denial. The second is anger. Pretty sure they are both in this space presently. Thus, the grumpy disrespect is completely understandable.

Marjory might be moving into the ‘bargaining’ stage with the whole Lazarus thing. Her bargaining stage may be searching for a means of resurrecting her sister, this the curiosity around the Mursaat’s rebirth.

This is Heroic Fantasy – I don’t want my Heroes to be “normal” if “normal” = whiney, disrespectful, etc. And the star of the story (my character) shouldn’t be a doormat in Heroic Fantasy either.

Never read much fantasy have you?
Or watched any?

The “hero” is not always the shining star everyone respects and listens to. Sometimes in order for a character to grow, mistakes have to be made.

Perhaps you could reply to what I actually wrote. I specified Heroic Fantasy for a reason.

“Heroic fantasy is a sub-genre of fantasy which chronicles the tales of heroes in imaginary lands. Characteristics: Frequently, the protagonist is reluctant to be a champion, and/or is of low or humble origin, may have royal ancestors or parents but does not know it.”

So again

The “hero” is not always the shining star everyone respects and listens to.

IndigoSundown.5419:

It isn’t (for me) that Braham is unrealistic. He’s an angst-ridden emo teen. I get it. What’s unrealistic is that in all of Tyria I don’t have better options for membership in a squad that is spearheading the fight against the creatures that threaten the existence of the five races. That’s not how I’d run a war.

I agree. When I first started playing and saw the members of Destiny’s Edge, those were heroes. Then “my guild” started forming and I was appalled. The team saving the world should be made up of the best of the best. Instead we had a group of misfits and children.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Djinn.9245:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Djinn.9245:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Marjory and Braham are both grieving. Marjory lost her sister, Braham lost his mother. The first stage is denial. The second is anger. Pretty sure they are both in this space presently. Thus, the grumpy disrespect is completely understandable.

Marjory might be moving into the ‘bargaining’ stage with the whole Lazarus thing. Her bargaining stage may be searching for a means of resurrecting her sister, this the curiosity around the Mursaat’s rebirth.

This is Heroic Fantasy – I don’t want my Heroes to be “normal” if “normal” = whiney, disrespectful, etc. And the star of the story (my character) shouldn’t be a doormat in Heroic Fantasy either.

Never read much fantasy have you?
Or watched any?

The “hero” is not always the shining star everyone respects and listens to. Sometimes in order for a character to grow, mistakes have to be made.

Perhaps you could reply to what I actually wrote. I specified Heroic Fantasy for a reason.

“Heroic fantasy is a sub-genre of fantasy which chronicles the tales of heroes in imaginary lands. Characteristics: Frequently, the protagonist is reluctant to be a champion, and/or is of low or humble origin, may have royal ancestors or parents but does not know it.”

So again

The “hero” is not always the shining star everyone respects and listens to.

In the Heroic Fantasy that I read, the Hero is not a doormat. Perhaps there is plenty of Heroic Fantasy that has your kind of hero. I haven’t seen much of it. Perhaps its not very popular.

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

It isn’t (for me) that Braham is unrealistic. He’s an angst-ridden emo teen. I get it. What’s unrealistic is that in all of Tyria I don’t have better options for membership in a squad that is spearheading the fight against the creatures that threaten the existence of the five races. That’s not how I’d run a war.

I agree. When I first started playing and saw the members of Destiny’s Edge, those were heroes. Then “my guild” started forming and I was appalled. The team saving the world should be made up of the best of the best. Instead we had a group of misfits and children.

Through most of the original personal story, DE are all acting out some kind of Junior High drama, calling names, stomping off from active missions in fits of rage, etc. If you read the first book (Edge of Destiny) you find out that they were all more-or-less misfits. Rytlock doesn’t fit in with his warband. Logan had issues with his brother and was pining for Jennah like some lovesick kid. Eir had been exiled from Hoelbrak for her foul-up. Snaff was not highly regarded among the asura. Caithe was wandering around alone, probably because (as we found out in LS2) she had fallen out with Faolin and was not in the good graces of the Pale Tree due to the events involving Wynn.

“Misfits and children” sounds like a perfect description of DE to me, at least until they finally pulled themselves together and started acting like grownups.

My Sylvari was getting irritated. Braham was going on about a bunch of mothers dying and I’m like, “Dude, my mom is comatose right now and I had to personally murder my brother/friend, one of the first people I met when I came out of my pod. Don’t talk to me about dead family.” Sylvari, depending upon how long you’ve been playing, have known the Pale Mother longer than Braham knew Eir. Eir and the Commander were good friends. Braham is totally in the wrong here. He was a character with so much potential at the end of HoT; now he’s… bleh. I want no cheesy redemption arc.

Jory, on the other hand, I can see. The wording could have been better. Instead of her saying that “the necromancer in her” ~needed to be with Lazarus, I think it would be more in-character for her to say that as a necro she’s the best suited to keep an eye on him- and if she learns something, that’s a bonus.

The Sass Level of our friends is irksome, and unless there’s some plausible reason (weird residual dragon magic? idk) I can’t imagine more than one person going bonkers like this.

ProtoGunner.4953:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

The “hero” is not always the shining star everyone respects and listens to. Sometimes in order for a character to grow, mistakes have to be made.

I absolutely agree.

Also, Braham is young, stubborn, erratic, volatile. Typical for some troubled 18-25 year olds with mother issues/complex. Why do people have such a problem for a character how he is?

Because most of 20 years old teens are kittening ridiculous in this age of time.
Barely a difference between 15 years old and 22 for example. They want to be adults when they want to enjoy themselves, but when there are serious matters that requires responsibility then all of sudden they don’t want to be adults anymore and are acting like kids.
I’d imagine “heroes” would be a bit more mature and have some more brain cells than some random crybaby emo.

Djinn.9245:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Djinn.9245:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Djinn.9245:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Marjory and Braham are both grieving. Marjory lost her sister, Braham lost his mother. The first stage is denial. The second is anger. Pretty sure they are both in this space presently. Thus, the grumpy disrespect is completely understandable.

Marjory might be moving into the ‘bargaining’ stage with the whole Lazarus thing. Her bargaining stage may be searching for a means of resurrecting her sister, this the curiosity around the Mursaat’s rebirth.

This is Heroic Fantasy – I don’t want my Heroes to be “normal” if “normal” = whiney, disrespectful, etc. And the star of the story (my character) shouldn’t be a doormat in Heroic Fantasy either.

Never read much fantasy have you?
Or watched any?

The “hero” is not always the shining star everyone respects and listens to. Sometimes in order for a character to grow, mistakes have to be made.

Perhaps you could reply to what I actually wrote. I specified Heroic Fantasy for a reason.

“Heroic fantasy is a sub-genre of fantasy which chronicles the tales of heroes in imaginary lands. Characteristics: Frequently, the protagonist is reluctant to be a champion, and/or is of low or humble origin, may have royal ancestors or parents but does not know it.”

So again

The “hero” is not always the shining star everyone respects and listens to.

In the Heroic Fantasy that I read, the Hero is not a doormat. Perhaps there is plenty of Heroic Fantasy that has your kind of hero. I haven’t seen much of it. Perhaps its not very popular.

We aren’t doormats here either. They got snarky with us, yes. They had hissy fits because they are hurting. Its no different than say, the hissy fit Cattie-Brie had with Drizzt. Their spat was never taken as Drizzt being a doormat. Mild angst != Doormat.

serialkicker.5274:

I’d imagine “heroes” would be a bit more mature and have some more brain cells than some random crybaby emo.

“I have known many heroes and some were such oafs that one would feed them at the back door if their deeds did not claim a place at the table.” — Star, Empress of the 20 Universes, to the hero Oscar Gordon in Robert A. Heinlein’s Glory Road.

My interest is more in science fiction than fantasy, but such examples of “heroic fantasy” as I can think of (e.g. Glory Road or Piers Anthony’s A Spell for Chameleon or even Harry Potter) usually seem to feature heroes starting out in humble circumstances, often marginalized by their societies, before discovering their true destiny. They were often used as doormats by those around them initially. That’s always seemed like a trope of the genre to me.

Granted, the protagonists of these stories themselves are not generally oafs (though Harry Potter did act out a bit when he got into his teens), but Braham is hardly the protagonist of the GW2 story. Feed him at the back door if you must.

Edit: Even King Arthur started out as a doormat nicknamed “Wart”. Is there anything that has a better claim to being “heroic fantasy” than that?

BrettM.9062:

Edit: Even King Arthur started out as a doormat nicknamed “Wart”. Is there anything that has a better claim to being “heroic fantasy” than that?

Wart wasn’t a member of the Round Table…

If Anet wants Braham to be a child that is still at home learning, that’s great. But he is a full member of our party. We don’t need emo teenagers adventuring with us.

BrettM.9062:

My interest is more in science fiction than fantasy, but such examples of “heroic fantasy” as I can think of (e.g. Glory Road or Piers Anthony’s A Spell for Chameleon or even Harry Potter) usually seem to feature heroes starting out in humble circumstances, often marginalized by their societies, before discovering their true destiny. They were often used as doormats by those around them initially. That’s always seemed like a trope of the genre to me.

Granted, the protagonists of these stories themselves are not generally oafs (though Harry Potter did act out a bit when he got into his teens), but Braham is hardly the protagonist of the GW2 story. Feed him at the back door if you must.

Can I send him home and replace him with someone whose behavior is not going to detract from the important business of saving Tyria? No, I can’t. If he is going to act like a five year old throwing a tantrum, I should be able to give him a time out.

BrettM.9062:

serialkicker.5274:

I’d imagine “heroes” would be a bit more mature and have some more brain cells than some random crybaby emo.

“I have known many heroes and some were such oafs that one would feed them at the back door if their deeds did not claim a place at the table.” — Star, Empress of the 20 Universes, to the hero Oscar Gordon in Robert A. Heinlein’s Glory Road.

My interest is more in science fiction than fantasy, but such examples of “heroic fantasy” as I can think of (e.g. Glory Road or Piers Anthony’s A Spell for Chameleon or even Harry Potter) usually seem to feature heroes starting out in humble circumstances, often marginalized by their societies, before discovering their true destiny. They were often used as doormats by those around them initially. That’s always seemed like a trope of the genre to me.

Granted, the protagonists of these stories themselves are not generally oafs (though Harry Potter did act out a bit when he got into his teens), but Braham is hardly the protagonist of the GW2 story. Feed him at the back door if you must.

Edit: Even King Arthur started out as a doormat nicknamed “Wart”. Is there anything that has a better claim to being “heroic fantasy” than that?

Being a doormat is not the same as being someone who is making decisions that 14 years old self destructive kid would.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Can I send him home and replace him with someone whose behavior is not going to detract from the important business of saving Tyria? No, I can’t. If he is going to act like a five year old throwing a tantrum, I should be able to give him a time out.

Give him a time out from what? From Dragon’s Watch? He’s not a member at this point, since he did not agree to join. Send him home? That’s where he went to crack the fang. How do you propose to keep him there and by what right? The best you can do is to withdraw the offer and find someone else to fill the spot in DW. And how do you know that this is not exactly what will happen, given that the story is not fully told yet?

Braham voluntarily worked with the Commander and accepted his authority as team leader during efforts against Scarlet and Mordremoth. Now he has decided to go his own way. It may be a bad way that will make it more difficult for Dragon’s Watch to carry out its own plan, but that doesn’t give the Commander any continued authority over him. If he will not listen to persuasion, then the Commander’s hands are tied,

There may be a hundred others out there doing things that will ultimately detract from the business of Dragon’s Watch, including the new marshal of the Pact (whoever he/she/it/ze turns out to be), for motives that are worthy or unworthy, intelligent or brainless. So what? The Commander is not the Supreme Ruler of Tyria and can’t do a thing about it except to try to arrange some sort of voluntary coordination.

BrettM.9062:

Give him a time out from what? From Dragon’s Watch? He’s not a member at this point, since he did not agree to join.

Then why am I saddled with him at all?

BrettM.9062:

Send him home? That’s where he went to crack the fang. How do you propose to keep him there and by what right? The best you can do is to withdraw the offer and find someone else to fill the spot in DW. And how do you know that this is not exactly what will happen, given that the story is not fully told yet?

I’d be shocked if we aren’t force to reconcile. If he is gone for good, great. And I’d love to have enough control to be able to select my team.

BrettM.9062:

Braham voluntarily worked with the Commander and accepted his authority as team leader during efforts against Scarlet and Mordremoth. Now he has decided to go his own way. It may be a bad way that will make it more difficult for Dragon’s Watch to carry out its own plan, but that doesn’t give the Commander any continued authority over him. If he will not listen to persuasion, then the Commander’s hands are tied.

There may be a hundred others out there doing things that will ultimately detract from the business of Dragon’s Watch, including the new marshal of the Pact (whoever he/she/it/ze turns out to be), for motives that are worthy or unworthy, intelligent or brainless. So what? The Commander is not the Supreme Ruler of Tyria and can’t do a thing about it except to try to arrange some sort of voluntary coordination.

So, if this is a volunteer effort to save the world (think about that for a minute), why can’t I select people who are committed to the effort?

Ultimately, I believe we have a different view of what the PC’s support group should be. It’s (for me) highly unfortunate that ANet seems to think that I must be forced to work with kitten-heels and drama kings. All of which underscores my original point which is that that is not how I’d do it, were I given a choice.

So, I finally finished the story today (I rage quit the last episode at release for various reasons) and what really kitten got me was Braham going ‘You know, I’m glad you didn’t join Destiny’s Edge. My mother wouldn’t have wanted you there!’

Boy. We’ve known your mother wayyy longer than you how about you sit the kitten down.

@IndogoSundown: I think you’re still reading way too much into one episode.

In what sense are we “saddled” with Braham? When we last saw him, at the end of HoT, he was acting about as normally as Braham has ever acted. He’s been a bit impulsive and volatile since the day we met him, but he was useful to the team and committed to the effort. He was pretty peeved at Mordy, which was to be expected since Mordy had killed his mother only a short time before. (The shaved head was a bit emo, but hardly rises to the level of acting like a drama king.)

So it seems to make perfect sense to look him up later and ask him to join the team in a new guild. We had no way of knowing what he had become in the interim and no good reason NOT to want him in Dragon’s Watch.

Then we get one instance at the end of one episode to show us the situation has changed, for reasons we still don’t know despite all the speculation we’ve done (well-founded and otherwise). At the end of that Braham walked away and made it clear he wants nothing to do with us. We did not follow. How does this constitute ANet “forcing” us to work with him? How do you know we will ever work with him again?

But let us suppose that the story follows your prediction, Braham redeems himself, and we reconcile with him. What is wrong with that? I just don’t understand why people are so determined to be unforgiving before we even get to the next part of the story and find out what explanations are offered for his behavior.

personally, both rox and rytlock seem to be the only ones whom i have little issue with (and thusly wouldn’t mind working with.)

Rox seems to be the one with the most chill attitude of the lot, going with the flow while Rytlocks just that bad-kitten crazy bar buddy you managed to pick up.

I think that if the various NPCs were written to be more competent or useful to the PC and/or the cause people might be more forgiving of their rough edges, character flaws, and the like.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

“Heroic fantasy is a sub-genre of fantasy which chronicles the tales of heroes in imaginary lands. Characteristics: Frequently, the protagonist is reluctant to be a champion, and/or is of low or humble origin, may have royal ancestors or parents but does not know it.”

So again

The “hero” is not always the shining star everyone respects and listens to.

That no longer really applies to the player character. It was probably true in the past, but now the player has defeated not one but two dragons.

You could perhaps make the argument that Tyrians thought Zhaitan’s death was a fluke or that the player was merely one of many in the fight. However, after the pact’s near annihilation in Verdant Brink, it was the player who rallied the different races together and was again a central figure in the group that delivered the killing blow against Mordremoth.

No longer can anyone deny the player is a pivotal component in taking down an elder dragon. Lazarus even remarked on it in the previous episode.

That said, I now start to wonder if there isn’t also an inferiority complex component with Braham. In addition to mourning his mother’s loss – his recent time with her made him realize that she was indeed the legend people speak of. With her dead, the pressure for him to live up to that legend has only increased, especially with Norn society being what it is.

He could very well see himself as being overshadowed by the player, with taking on Jormag independently being his only chance at showing others that he’s worthy of his family’s legacy.

BrettM.9062:

Give him a time out from what? From Dragon’s Watch? He’s not a member at this point, since he did not agree to join. Send him home? That’s where he went to crack the fang. How do you propose to keep him there and by what right? The best you can do is to withdraw the offer and find someone else to fill the spot in DW.

Or we can smack him in the face and take the bow enchanted with a scroll we earned while he was standing there and doing nothing. And Braham can walk anywhere he wants from there, risking only his own life, not thousands of norns.

Ider.1276:

BrettM.9062:

Give him a time out from what? From Dragon’s Watch? He’s not a member at this point, since he did not agree to join. Send him home? That’s where he went to crack the fang. How do you propose to keep him there and by what right? The best you can do is to withdraw the offer and find someone else to fill the spot in DW.

Or we can smack him in the face and take the bow enchanted with a scroll we earned while he was standing there and doing nothing. And Braham can walk anywhere he wants from there, risking only his own life, not thousands of norns.

I’m all for smacking him in the face but he WAS the one that tracked the scroll down. We helped him in the final fight but he spent months following legends and clues about its whereabouts.

There is one “but” here. We don’t know how Braham tracked down the scroll. He could just “borrow” the research of that charr priory scholar from Hoelbrak. Or Jormag could whispered into his mind where to find it. After all that great “effort” during the boss fight i wouldn’t be surprised.
And that is why (for me) the legend of breaking the Fang is ruined. I was expacting that the fang will be cracked by a true hero, who accomplishes it by hard work and self development. Or at least is blessed by the Spirits. Not the PC, of course, but some kind of iconic norn like Jora, Eir, Asgeir Dragonrender. Now the Fang is chipped with a spell from a scroll (ok). By a person who neither created the spell, nor defeated a terrible monster to obtaine it. You could replace Braham with Taimi and nothing would change: even a disabled asura girl can repeat the “legendary” Braham’s quest to chip the tooth. Exept Taimi could locate the scroll much faster. That is not a legend I would be proud to put near Jora’s or Asgeir’s.
Besides, whining that you need no one to defeat a boss, getting comrade down, standing aside all the boss fight, and taking the loot at the end has a special word in gw2 comunity. And that word is “leecher”.

Ider.1276:

Not the PC, of course, but some kind of iconic norn like Jora, Eir, Asgeir Dragonrender. Now the Fang is chipped with a spell from a scroll (ok). By a person who neither created the spell, nor defeated a terrible monster to obtaine it.

But the scroll is similar or identical to the one used by Asgeir, which is apparently of jotun origin. We have no idea how Asgeir got it, but he could be as much of a “leecher” as Braham. Regardless, the upshot is that the only thing proven is that the scroll makes you deadly against teeth, but not necessarily against the possessor of those teeth, given that Asgeir was ultimately killed by Jormag. Ultimately, I don’t think it matters much whether Braham is a leecher or a true icon. Either way, he has fallen into the trap of believing a myth that was allowed to persist because it was socially useful. Until now, when it may get more norn killed than it ever saved.

ATMAvatar.5749:

That said, I now start to wonder if there isn’t also an inferiority complex component with Braham. In addition to mourning his mother’s loss – his recent time with her made him realize that she was indeed the legend people speak of. With her dead, the pressure for him to live up to that legend has only increased, especially with Norn society being what it is.

He could very well see himself as being overshadowed by the player, with taking on Jormag independently being his only chance at showing others that he’s worthy of his family’s legacy.

I don’t know about an inferiority complex. Braham has always been one to look for shortcuts. Remember how he insisted on coming along on the mission to explore Rata Novus because there might be some kind of “dragon kill switch” to be found there? That was certainly never anything Taimi even hinted about what might be found there. Now he thinks the scroll has given him his dragon kill switch.

Braham did come to realize that Eir was a legend, but he never really seemed to understand WHY she was. When we destroyed the totem in Frostgorge, he said something like “This is the first time I’ve ever seen you fight. Now I understand why you’re a legend.” But that was a major mistake on his part and he never got beyond it.

Yes, Eir had fabulous fighting skills. But her legend was far, far more than that. Her legend was her unusual (for a norn) forging of alliances, her skills at gathering intelligence and forming a plan, and at organized combat rather than the usual lynch mob of norns each following their own agenda and seeking their own glory. These are the concepts with which she was trying to transform norn society, and the concepts that Braham has just thrown out the window by yelling “I’ve cracked the tooth! Everyone follow me on a mad rush at Jormag!”

I would certainly like to know what Braham thinks are included in the “pile of responsibilities” that have been “loaded” on him since he came back. He obviously had a responsibility for arranging a memorial service, which he did. He also had a responsibility to be at that service for the sake of his mother’s friends and admirers, which he avoided. He had a responsibility for Garm that he shoved off on Rox. Overall, it looks more like he’s shirking responsibilities rather than taking them on.

It’s curious that Braham thinks Eir would not have wanted the Commander in DE, apparently because the Commander would rather look before he leaps. Does Braham not realize that Eir approved of the Pact and was glad to work with it? He acts as if Eir would have been charging around knocking out Elder Dragons one after another, with or without DE, had she lived, which is obviously not the case. If that’s what he’s trying to live up to, then he’s set the bar impossibly high. Braham has put Eir on a pedestal of his own making.

IndigoSundown.5419:

BrettM.9062:

My interest is more in science fiction than fantasy, but such examples of “heroic fantasy” as I can think of (e.g. Glory Road or Piers Anthony’s A Spell for Chameleon or even Harry Potter) usually seem to feature heroes starting out in humble circumstances, often marginalized by their societies, before discovering their true destiny. They were often used as doormats by those around them initially. That’s always seemed like a trope of the genre to me.

Granted, the protagonists of these stories themselves are not generally oafs (though Harry Potter did act out a bit when he got into his teens), but Braham is hardly the protagonist of the GW2 story. Feed him at the back door if you must.

Can I send him home and replace him with someone whose behavior is not going to detract from the important business of saving Tyria? No, I can’t. If he is going to act like a five year old throwing a tantrum, I should be able to give him a time out.

Well no. You can’t because he’s not listening to you. Even if that was a choice of dialogue, his actions would be the same. lol

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Can I send him home and replace him with someone whose behavior is not going to detract from the important business of saving Tyria? No, I can’t. If he is going to act like a five year old throwing a tantrum, I should be able to give him a time out.

Well no. You can’t because he’s not listening to you. Even if that was a choice of dialogue, his actions would be the same. lol

Then can we replace him already? And when he messes up, can we call him a disgrace to his mother’s legacy and refuse him entry into the guild? Both guilds, DE and DW? (Let’s face it, in Arah it’s pretty clear that they consider you a part of Destiny’s Edge. And I’m sure both Rytlock and Caithe would back us up on this.)

We know what’s going to happen. He’s going to come walking back over a pile of corpses, and ask to rejoin us. And, because we won’t be allowed a choice, we’ll accept him back and forgive him. We all see it coming, and I for one hate it.

Palador.2170:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Can I send him home and replace him with someone whose behavior is not going to detract from the important business of saving Tyria? No, I can’t. If he is going to act like a five year old throwing a tantrum, I should be able to give him a time out.

Well no. You can’t because he’s not listening to you. Even if that was a choice of dialogue, his actions would be the same. lol

Then can we replace him already? And when he messes up, can we call him a disgrace to his mother’s legacy and refuse him entry into the guild? Both guilds, DE and DW? (Let’s face it, in Arah it’s pretty clear that they consider you a part of Destiny’s Edge. And I’m sure both Rytlock and Caithe would back us up on this.)

We know what’s going to happen. He’s going to come walking back over a pile of corpses, and ask to rejoin us. And, because we won’t be allowed a choice, we’ll accept him back and forgive him. We all see it coming, and I for one hate it.

I dont hate the idea of forgiving him because, IMO, there is nothing to forgive. I do, however, regret not being allowed to ignore him as I would any other squalling baby with a soiled diaper. He should have no more part in what I am doing than any other NPC uttering their lines about the price of produce or something of the sort in the background in a racial city.

ATMAvatar.5749:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

“Heroic fantasy is a sub-genre of fantasy which chronicles the tales of heroes in imaginary lands. Characteristics: Frequently, the protagonist is reluctant to be a champion, and/or is of low or humble origin, may have royal ancestors or parents but does not know it.”

So again

The “hero” is not always the shining star everyone respects and listens to.

That no longer really applies to the player character. It was probably true in the past, but now the player has defeated not one but two dragons.

You could perhaps make the argument that Tyrians thought Zhaitan’s death was a fluke or that the player was merely one of many in the fight. However, after the pact’s near annihilation in Verdant Brink, it was the player who rallied the different races together and was again a central figure in the group that delivered the killing blow against Mordremoth.

No longer can anyone deny the player is a pivotal component in taking down an elder dragon. Lazarus even remarked on it in the previous episode.

That said, I now start to wonder if there isn’t also an inferiority complex component with Braham. In addition to mourning his mother’s loss – his recent time with her made him realize that she was indeed the legend people speak of. With her dead, the pressure for him to live up to that legend has only increased, especially with Norn society being what it is.

He could very well see himself as being overshadowed by the player, with taking on Jormag independently being his only chance at showing others that he’s worthy of his family’s legacy.

Family legacy is a European concept. Norn value making your own story.

Djinn.9245:

Family legacy is a European concept. Norn value making your own story.

No, norn do it as well. For examples, see “Braham Eirson” and the personal story path where the horn left behind by one of your ancestors is taken from you. Heck, just look at the “Sons of Svanir”, even. There are other little bits of it scattered about. They want to match or surpass those legends, but they revere and cherish them all the same.

Ashen.2907:

I dont hate the idea of forgiving him because, IMO, there is nothing to forgive.

Yet.

That’s the point right there. We see him walking down this path, and it’s clearly not going to end well for a great number of people. But we can’t stop him, and we know he’s going to get dumped back on us when it’s all over.

I could forgive him for being a brat in one instance. Heck, Rox is the one he really needs to apologize to for that one, he nearly got her killed. It’s what’s coming up next that has a lot of us gritting our teeth and wanting to shoot him.

Palador.2170:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Can I send him home and replace him with someone whose behavior is not going to detract from the important business of saving Tyria? No, I can’t. If he is going to act like a five year old throwing a tantrum, I should be able to give him a time out.

Well no. You can’t because he’s not listening to you. Even if that was a choice of dialogue, his actions would be the same. lol

Then can we replace him already? And when he messes up, can we call him a disgrace to his mother’s legacy and refuse him entry into the guild? Both guilds, DE and DW? (Let’s face it, in Arah it’s pretty clear that they consider you a part of Destiny’s Edge. And I’m sure both Rytlock and Caithe would back us up on this.)

We know what’s going to happen. He’s going to come walking back over a pile of corpses, and ask to rejoin us. And, because we won’t be allowed a choice, we’ll accept him back and forgive him. We all see it coming, and I for one hate it.

We have no control over DE, we’re not even in it, and as far as I can tell he’s not joined our guild either.

Vayne.8563:

We have no control over DE, we’re not even in it, and as far as I can tell he’s not joined our guild either.

DE is dead. Died with its heart and mind – Eir. And it is true that PC was not part of the guild and therefor has no right to “revive” the guild. Thats why we created Dragon Watch, a direct successor of DE.
But. PC was a friend and unofficial member of DE, starting from our DE mentor, helping to reassemble the guild and fighting side by side against Zhaitan. Thats why PC has a right to carry on the heritage of the guild, unlike Braham, who was a total stranger to everyone there but Eir, and don’t even have a right to complain.

Ultimately people are correct in saying that we have no authority over Braham. But we do have some degree of authority within our guild over ourselves regarding with whom we choose to associate. So…if we cannot send Braham on a time out, at least we should be allowed to choose to not interact with him. I dont need to be allowed to order Braham to go sit in a corner, but I wouldnt mind being allowed to tell him to just go away.

Ider.1276:

Vayne.8563:

We have no control over DE, we’re not even in it, and as far as I can tell he’s not joined our guild either.

DE is dead. Died with its heart and mind – Eir. And it is true that PC was not part of the guild and therefor has no right to “revive” the guild. Thats why we created Dragon Watch, a direct successor of DE.
But. PC was a friend and unofficial member of DE, starting from our DE mentor, helping to reassemble the guild and fighting side by side against Zhaitan. Thats why PC has a right to carry on the heritage of the guild, unlike Braham, who was a total stranger to everyone there but Eir, and don’t even have a right to complain.

Unless my memory from Episode 1 is off, it was Rytlock’s idea to create an entirely new guild led by the Commander. Given that he was the last fully functioning member (Caithe is still iffy to everyone and Logan and Zojja are still recovering) he was the one to make the call.

moonkenzie.5218:

My Sylvari was getting irritated. Braham was going on about a bunch of mothers dying and I’m like, “Dude, my mom is comatose right now and I had to personally murder my brother/friend, one of the first people I met when I came out of my pod. Don’t talk to me about dead family.” Sylvari, depending upon how long you’ve been playing, have known the Pale Mother longer than Braham knew Eir. Eir and the Commander were good friends. Braham is totally in the wrong here. He was a character with so much potential at the end of HoT; now he’s… bleh. I want no cheesy redemption arc.

Jory, on the other hand, I can see. The wording could have been better. Instead of her saying that “the necromancer in her” ~needed to be with Lazarus, I think it would be more in-character for her to say that as a necro she’s the best suited to keep an eye on him- and if she learns something, that’s a bonus.

The Sass Level of our friends is irksome, and unless there’s some plausible reason (weird residual dragon magic? idk) I can’t imagine more than one person going bonkers like this.

That’s because the writing is getting progressively worse from season to season, including HoT. Braham is a dull cliche teenager whose motivations are plot driven disguised as character. Jory was the same, which was why we got that “the necromancer in me” line. They wanted to sell us Lazarus (for some silly reason) and used Jory to do it. Plus, the next episode will probably be another “look it’s Lazarus” episode.