Guild Wars 2

It is my personal belief that if Guild Wars 2 continues to release Living Story content akittens current pace, and with its current issues, it will ultimately result in the failure of the game.

I am willing to expand on any of these if people are interested.

Here is why:

1. Achievements vs. Time

Having multiple achievements, attached to rewards, available for a limited time, is a recipe for disaster.

It encourages players to resort to selfish behavior (stealing, AFK, griefing), and find ways to circumvent the intended mechanics (camping, guesting).

It discourages players who enjoy achievements, yet don’t have the time to dedicate to repetitive, or skill based tasks that require time.

2. Story vs. Time

Due to the quick pace at which the Living Story is progressing, players run the risk of missing huge chunks of content.

Players who continuously find themselves unable to dedicate the required time to keep up with the story, will more than likely lose the desire to continue playing.

Story that is tied to content inaccessible to all levels is discouraging for all players. Simply being “leveled up” is not an appropriate or realistic solution.

3. Time vs. Reward

Players need to feel that the time and money they’re spending in game, is providing them with a fair, and reasonable rewards. If a task takes too much time, or requires too much money to complete, players will become discouraged (100,000 candies, RNG).

If the rewards for completing a task are not flexible, players may find little incentive to continue playing.

4. Social vs. Solo

Forcing players to participate with, or without the option to partner up (Effigy Lighting, Molten Facility), leaves many feeling frustrated.

Achievements/tasks that encourage competition, or don’t require anyone else to complete can lead many players to feel unwanted pressure, and/or loneliness.

5. Fun vs. Time

Killing ten rats is not fun. Nor is lighting 50 effigies, hitting 250 things, gathering 100,000 items, or any other form of grind. When players are given a limited window to complete tasks, it can be frustrating if the tasks require large amounts of time.

I could probably go on, but for me, I have finally hit a point where the Living Story has demanded so much of me in such a short time, that my frustration level has peaked. What was once a fun experience has become a desperate attempt to keep up.

As I mentioned in another post, this current story arch will more than likely be the first time I don’t complete the achievements or story. This realization has actually tweaked something in my brain, which has caused me to question whether I even care.

Video games are supposed to be fun. They aren’t supposed to be chores that we become addicted to, and enduce feelings of disappointment and guilt when they can’t be played.

The Living Story, while a good idea is trying to be everything to everyone, and as a result being frustrating to almost everyone. If anyone is interested, I’ll outline my ideas for how to salvage this game. I fear that if something isn’t done soon, the frustration levels will force most players to abandon the Living Story, and/or the game.

So, you basically want to go back to the old model with a bit new content every 6 months or so?

People don’t NEED to do the achievements. The rewards you get for doing them are cosmetic and isn’t required to play the game.

The Living story is trying to make the world seem alive, and for it to seem alive stuff must keep happening at a rather rapid pace, otherwise it would just feel weird.

I think it is a good idea to keep the living story. They have posted that things are going to be added as permanent content (dungeons will be incorporated into fractals was the last I heard about it) and the arc of the story will continue.
I personally have liked and not liked various parts so far with the last my least favourite due mostly to the carpet bombing at the end of the current dungeon. That coupled with jumping puzzles being key to the achievements and I have done 2 of the achievements and will not do any more with this arc. Does that mean I hate the concept, not a all.

lordkrall.7241:

So, you basically want to go back to the old model with a bit new content every 6 months or so?

People don’t NEED to do the achievements. The rewards you get for doing them are cosmetic and isn’t required to play the game.

The Living story is trying to make the world seem alive, and for it to seem alive stuff must keep happening at a rather rapid pace, otherwise it would just feel weird.

Are you so sure it has to be an all, or nothing solution?

I don’t NEED to play the game at all. I WANT to play the game. However, of the tasks I’m being presented with are consistently requiring large amounts of time to complete, yet are only available for a limited time, it becomes futile.

Your last argument is incorrect. There is a difference between a flashy, car salesman approach, and a personal, well considered, well paced story.

And yet nothing in these Living Story releases have required “large amounts of time”.
Effigy could be done in about 2 hours (and 2 hours during the course of a month is very little), the pinatas could be completed around that amount of time as well. And the candy eating could be done in 2 minutes more or less.

How is it incorrect?
Would the real world feel living if everything was put on hold for two weeks because you hadn’t experienced it yet?
How about WW2? Should we remake that so that you can participate in it, since you missed it?

lordkrall.7241:

And yet nothing in these Living Story releases have required “large amounts of time”.
Effigy could be done in about 2 hours (and 2 hours during the course of a month is very little), the pinatas could be completed around that amount of time as well. And the candy eating could be done in 2 minutes more or less.

How is it incorrect?
Would the real world feel living if everything was put on hold for two weeks because you hadn’t experienced it yet?
How about WW2? Should we remake that so that you can participate in it, since you missed it?

I’m sorry, but your arguments are so far beyond ridiculous that it won’t do either of us any good to continue. If its all the same, I’ll wait for other responses.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

I’m sorry, but your arguments are so far beyond ridiculous that it won’t do either of us any good to continue. If its all the same, I’ll wait for other responses.

How are they beyond ridiculous? Please explain that to me?
I answered your arguments in a nice manner, why can’t you just do the same? This is a forum after all, if you are going to assume everyone will agree with you, you might find it hard to frequent a forum.

lordkrall.7241:

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

I’m sorry, but your arguments are so far beyond ridiculous that it won’t do either of us any good to continue. If its all the same, I’ll wait for other responses.

How are they beyond ridiculous? Please explain that to me?
I answered your arguments in a nice manner, why can’t you just do the same? This is a forum after all, if you are going to assume everyone will agree with you, you might find it hard to frequent a forum.

Tell you what. If you spend the next hour learning what logical fallacies are, and point out at least two in your responses, I’ll respond with a very well thought out response to your posts. Deal?

The whole living story notion is a neat idea, but temporary content in general is rather ill-conceived. Putting in content only to yank it out a couple of weeks later is bad for the game. It results in tons of wasted development time and frustrates more players than it appeals to. It’s often so rushed too that the quality is hit or miss. Moreover, it’s internally inconsistent – all of the original dungeons have specifically themed stories surrounding them, yet none of them have been removed, why should any of the LS stuff?

What’s worse is that it gets the whole development of the game behind. After a full year of living story content, what does the game have to show for it? Existing and returning players will be put off by the fact that not much has changed and there isn’t much more in the game for them to play around with.

It was a pretty bad idea from the get go.

Einlanzer.1627:

The whole living story notion is a neat idea, but temporary content in general is rather ill-conceived. Putting in content only to yank it out a couple of weeks later is bad for the game. It results in tons of wasted development time and frustrates more players than it appeals to. It’s often so rushed too that the quality is hit or miss. Moreover, it’s internally inconsistent – all of the original dungeons have specifically themed stories surrounding them, yet none of them have been removed, why should any of the LS stuff?

What’s worse is that it gets the whole development of the game behind. After a full year of living story content, what does the game have to show for it? Existing and returning players will be put off by the fact that not much has changed and there isn’t much more in the game for them to play around with.

It was a pretty bad idea from the get go.

/signed. In (most) other MMOs the content, there might be fewer new content which gets patched into the game for free, but this fewer content lasts and fits to the game. Paid expansions bring much more enjoyment, really new features, places to explore for all and every player, no matter when someone tries to do it.

Living story has been an idea, but its nothing to keep players occupied. We don’t need some 1-2 hours content every two weeks. Hopefully some real expansion is announced soon. The game is good and could grow and become even better with it. Living story only changes tiny bits for some time. There is no such thing as growing with it. I wouldn’t say its a downfall, but it is no real development, sadly.

Yeah I’m not crazy about LS.

Also look at the sheer number of things going up on the gem store. Some that aren’t even purchasable but a sad old RNG.

Would you rather buy 20 new weapons off the gem store this year and get the paltry content of LS?

Or they just make an expansion and stop micro-content.

For me 100% expansion.

The Living Story is a great concept, but executed poorly, and i’ve pretty much stopped playing GW2 now. It’s sad because i really wanted to play for the long term, but the incentives for rewards are so underwhelming.
It would have been better if they released a full armor set for each event, instead of a pair of gloves for one event, and a helm for another. Add the RNG for gear and it’s just another reason not to log on.

I wouldn’t say downfall per sé, but it sure isn’t good currently. I still feel Flame and Frost had the best pacing in hindsight. The larger this Living Story becomes, the more permanent it has to be. Removing content merely leads to a dying story.

agreed personally and many others feel that the living story pacing needs to be more like flame and frost. Everything jumbled has led to greed afk and more unfriendly behavior just look at the responses about oh you dont have to do it. No, I get that but story has always been very well in gw and this pace too much is being missed aside from rewards and achievements etc. living stories for around 2 months and maybe add a lil something permanent each time like the jp or dungeon or skins along this line

And back during flame and frost people complained about it being too spaced out and not happening fast enough.

They really can’t win, can they?

lordkrall.7241:

And back during flame and frost people complained about it being too spaced out and not happening fast enough.

They really can’t win, can they?

So what does that tell you? Perhaps there is a happy medium between months, and one to two weeks?

Can you think of any other solutions? (This is going to be your new goal for every post you make. You have to think of at least one solution that isn’t extreme.)

I’m getting frustrated as well. I’m a casual player, and it feels like if I take just a week off I will miss significant content now. Especially with this new two week release schedule.

while i agree with some posts arguing against the living story and some arguing for it, i have to agree with the folks arguing for it. It’s a living story, the world is alive, stuff happens and the world moves on. Here is a real world example. You’re living in your town/city/whatever and there is a month of events coming up for the fourth of july. Parade’s, festivals, sports events, etc. However you have made plans to go to Europe for the month of July. So obviously you miss all the stuff that happened. When you come back you have to catch up and find out what you missed, in forms of story telling, people sharing memories, etc. Same thing applies here. If you miss some content, so what there is more coming every two weeks, I missed the flame and frost dungeon, but i asked about it in LA and heard some really great stories.

Also look at it from the business model, they have a game, that is almost one year old. An MMO needs people in it, hell any game needs people playing it. With this model, the feeling you are feeling right now, the feeling of possibly missing some content that you want to play, is exactly why they are doing it this way. In attempts to get you to log in daily, weekly, etc. and play their game.

At the end of the day, if you like playing the game, play it. If you don’t then don’t play it. Miss content? so what it’s not the end of the world and there is more coming in two weeks anyways.

Im not going to go so far as say to say living story is all that bad, i certainly enjoyed a few of the contents in the living story, some im glad to have experienced once or twice and others id wish it were permanent. My main dislike of the matter is that the temporary nature of the LS, because seriously I like this game, and like many people who likes this game i think we want generally 2 things.

1. To experience the new content, which we will applaud if the experience is nice (Molten facility and aetherblade retreat are nice, southsun instances not so)
2. To enjoy the rewards that come from them, be it new armor stats (sentinels, settlers) or just the new special skins or even achievements and titles.

This makes a frantic pace to catch up for some players and we do despair at seeing the prospect of this happening, of realizing we cant get these unless we catch up so we dread missing out by taking things casually. eventually this could lead to resentment and possibly quitting.

I also would add that stats based items and those that “affect” gameplay arent the only content that matters. In this game, if a player sets skins or looks as his/her goal, then such content matters too, for them, and its not in anyone elses place to say its not relevant. its a game, so everything can be technically optional but once u r in here and set urself a goal, whatever it is that is needed to get that goal becomes relevant.

As someone who has very little time to play, and has taken several breaks from GW2 in the last year due to life getting busy, I have enjoyed a lot of the living story updates. Coming back to some new and exciting event feels pretty compelling. Sometimes I wish I had more time to play them, but honestly, I can get a lot of the experience of it in a couple sessions usually. I don’t every feel like I’m at a disadvantage for missing something.

Regardless of the parts of it I have liked, I do have some problems. I do think they need to focus more on new areas and longer lasting content. Holidays are fun, but they don’t need to be so long and take up so much of the updates. I hate to compare any game, especially this one, to WoW, but one thing I did like about WoW was that content and story was more persistent and progressed nicely through world zones. Adding new areas allows you to section off a part of the game where that story content can keep existing for a longer amount of time before changing it. Ultimately though, that’s where larger expansions or patches would do more justice than micro updates. As a player of GW, I was more than willing to shell out money for an expansion, considering how much content they were and the lack of a sub. Call me pessimistic, but I don’t see how anet can possibly have enough resources and person-hours to work on both, and that is what will kill this game for me.

However, I do know I’m probably not representative of most players. I mainly play solo, and very casually at that. I don’t really play with groups so dungeon content isn’t really for me, and I haven’t done WvW or PvP at all. I like the instanced story parts of events, and mini dungeons and big, chaining world events are my favorite. While I’m a sucker for a cool title or armor skin, I’m really not an achievement hunter either. I don’t want to say what is best for the game based just on what I want from it.

tldr: Living story is cool idea, I like fun and numerous updates, and I don’t feel like I’m at a disadvantage for missing it… BUT, my long term interest rides on larger patches and expansions of more persistent content, and I don’t see how they can possibly do both.

UrMom.4205:

while i agree with some posts arguing against the living story and some arguing for it, i have to agree with the folks arguing for it. It’s a living story, the world is alive, stuff happens and the world moves on. Here is a real world example. You’re living in your town/city/whatever and there is a month of events coming up for the fourth of july. Parade’s, festivals, sports events, etc. However you have made plans to go to Europe for the month of July. So obviously you miss all the stuff that happened. When you come back you have to catch up and find out what you missed, in forms of story telling, people sharing memories, etc. Same thing applies here. If you miss some content, so what there is more coming every two weeks, I missed the flame and frost dungeon, but i asked about it in LA and heard some really great stories.

Also look at it from the business model, they have a game, that is almost one year old. An MMO needs people in it, hell any game needs people playing it. With this model, the feeling you are feeling right now, the feeling of possibly missing some content that you want to play, is exactly why they are doing it this way. In attempts to get you to log in daily, weekly, etc. and play their game.

At the end of the day, if you like playing the game, play it. If you don’t then don’t play it. Miss content? so what it’s not the end of the world and there is more coming in two weeks anyways.

Ok here is the big question then if they need to keep us logging in how many people have lost interest in a game they feel does not deliver?

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

5. Fun vs. Time

Killing ten rats is not fun. Nor is lighting 50 effigies, hitting 250 things, gathering 100,000 items, or any other form of grind. When players are given a limited window to complete tasks, it can be frustrating if the tasks require large amounts of time.

I could probably go on, but for me, I have finally hit a point where the Living Story has demanded so much of me in such a short time, that my frustration level has peaked. What was once a fun experience has become a desperate attempt to keep up.

As I mentioned in another post, this current story arch will more than likely be the first time I don’t complete the achievements or story. This realization has actually tweaked something in my brain, which has caused me to question whether I even care.

Video games are supposed to be fun. They aren’t supposed to be chores that we become addicted to, and enduce feelings of disappointment and guilt when they can’t be played.

I can agree with this as a casual player. If all they are going to do with this new content is make us grind ridiculous amount of boring content then the game will no longer be fun. I thought when the game was released that they were getting rid of the grind but I’m starting to see it make a comeback.

Agreed with your points, especially 1, 2, and 5.

Honestly I may end up just dropping this game in the future. I’m finding the mechanics highly enjoyable right now, but current trends are just putting me off. Barring off achievements and content just frustrates my OCDness and I just don’t want to put up with a game that is basically saying “Even though life is busy, you should play now or never be able to play this content we made.”

Also mentioning I’d prefer a high quality, well thought out story rather than lower quality “living” story anyday.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

lordkrall.7241:

And yet nothing in these Living Story releases have required “large amounts of time”.
Effigy could be done in about 2 hours (and 2 hours during the course of a month is very little), the pinatas could be completed around that amount of time as well. And the candy eating could be done in 2 minutes more or less.

How is it incorrect?
Would the real world feel living if everything was put on hold for two weeks because you hadn’t experienced it yet?
How about WW2? Should we remake that so that you can participate in it, since you missed it?

I’m sorry, but your arguments are so far beyond ridiculous that it won’t do either of us any good to continue. If its all the same, I’ll wait for other responses.

I agree with your response to Lordkrall’s response (?) but LordKrall has a point. The content may look overwhelming but when you get into it, it’s not as bad as it appears. At last not always. I’m a casual but I managed to do enough of the dragonbash to get my wings. Didn’t do the hologram achievement though, that one was too much. Just a step too far. It’s the Atherblade content that has annoyed me. It’s the holograms all over again, plus dungeon content with nothing for the soloist.

I’d like a slower produced, more ‘accessible to all’ approach to the LS but I’d like to keep it all the same. The Marjory sections of dragonbash really renewed my faith in the dev’s ability to keep this game interesting. I’d like them to preserve the attitude that went into creating that and not worry about deadlines.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

lordkrall.7241:

So, you basically want to go back to the old model with a bit new content every 6 months or so?

People don’t NEED to do the achievements. The rewards you get for doing them are cosmetic and isn’t required to play the game.

The Living story is trying to make the world seem alive, and for it to seem alive stuff must keep happening at a rather rapid pace, otherwise it would just feel weird.

Are you so sure it has to be an all, or nothing solution?

I don’t NEED to play the game at all. I WANT to play the game. However, of the tasks I’m being presented with are consistently requiring large amounts of time to complete, yet are only available for a limited time, it becomes futile.

Your last argument is incorrect. There is a difference between a flashy, car salesman approach, and a personal, well considered, well paced story.

Sorry but I am leaning towards agreement with Lordkrall here… the Living Story is .. living its a particular place and time in Tyria when something happens, is happening.. just like real life. To be honest one of my complaints about Living Story is the long pauses in between many of the acts and chapters.
Lordkrall answered you in a civil manner and presented a decent counter to your opinions… the content is temporary for a reason.. its the replication of real life in a story world and as such as the saying goes time is fleeting.

If you WANT to play the game, then that is great but to play the game you need to understand what ANET is seeking to do.. going back to the tired model of releasing a new dungeon or a raid that over a period of time becomes nothing more entertaining that a CoF1 speedrun isn’t the way this game was planned to head. ANET are trying something different, they are giving us something every few weeks that offers something new (not necessarily new by mechanics but new in way of Tyrian story life… but like in RL you ned to keep abreast of events, and follow it best you can, but just like inn RL sometimes other things get in the way of seeing out certain events and conclusions… I too have a busy family life and a business to run, so I understand nif sometimes I cant see something through to the end, sucks I know but that’s life sometimes).
You have repeatedly complained about not being able to see the story out due to your time constraints and I understand this but at the same time if they made players continually wait longer periods of time for players like you to say, spend an extra week or two lighting some effigies or smashing some candy dolls (which is already paused to the mas imo) then the LS will likely dissuade more players to keep partaking than the scenario you are trying to paint for us.
As for Lordkrall bordering on the ridiculous with his counter believe it is more ridiculous on your part for you to want to not be open to others views and resort to rudeness.. yes not unheard on a forum but it kind of shows your not really taking in what he and others are trying to say.

In regards to low levels being excluded, this is not true as to some degree level scaling allows for inclusion, but I buy into the fact that level scaling in GW2 can at times be about as useful as a chocolate tea cup and when coming up against content that is somewhat more challenging in tactics, mechanic’s and of course skills.. this may need to be better handled.

I get that LS perhaps does reflect real life; things happening changing and affecting the world and like real life things do happen that make u miss out on stuff. What I don’t get is why this should be ok in a game? EXAMPLE: I don’t get why I’m suppose to be just ok not experiencing say… “dungeon X” which is said to be for example the most fun-nest content or whatever because in the 2 weeks in month A i was busy chasing deadlines at work. I dont get why I’m suppose to feel all nice and dandy when i see someone holding greatsword X or backpiece Y which has designs i would just die for, but knowing i can NEVER get it because I didnt have time to chase after all the achievements or such.

Also even if those items get into TP do u know how ridiculously hgh the prices wud be for such temporary items? Look at the Molten jetpack for example. rare as heck to get and limited time=crazy price. and achievement based rewards are usually accountbound or souldbound anyhow…

I’d appreciate not getting the “entitlement” argument. I’m not asking for such things on a silver platter, merely given a chance to try for it. If I am detained from investing time in the game at a particular time, its not my fault, but i feel like being punished for it all the same.

I love the concept of the living story but I think every two weeks is a bit too fast. Everyone has different amounts of time that they can devote to the game which will make it impossible to meet everyone’s timetable. Some people will be able to experience the content to the fullest, some in pieces, and some may not even be able to. I feel as if ArenaNet should focus on the timetable of the casual player, creating a content schedule that appeals more so to them but also not foretting the players who are able to play frequently. There must be a happy median there somewhere. I just feel two weeks is too fast.

The Living Story is ever changing. Why would anyone want to log in and run the same events on a new character that you have run on the previous 4 others? For reference, I am a completionist. As for getting the achievements, who cares because new stuff is now here! Even new content becomes old quickly. I seriously doubt you will see 10 pairs of wings in Lions Arch on people 3 months from now.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

It is my personal belief that if Guild Wars 2 continues to release Living Story content akittens current pace, and with its current issues, it will ultimately result in the failure of the game.
Here is why:

1. Achievements vs. Time

Having multiple achievements, attached to rewards, available for a limited time, is a recipe for disaster.

It encourages players to resort to selfish behavior (stealing, AFK, griefing), and find ways to circumvent the intended mechanics (camping, guesting).
2. Story vs. Time

Due to the quick pace at which the Living Story is progressing, players run the risk of missing huge chunks of content.
3. Time vs. Reward

Players need to feel that the time and money they’re spending in game, is providing them with a fair, and reasonable rewards. If a task takes too much time, or requires too much money to complete, players will become discouraged (100,000 candies, RNG).
4. Social vs. Solo

Forcing players to participate with, or without the option to partner up (Effigy Lighting, Molten Facility), leaves many feeling frustrated.

Achievements/tasks that encourage competition, or don’t require anyone else to complete can lead many players to feel unwanted pressure, and/or loneliness.
5. Fun vs. Time
Killing ten rats is not fun. Nor is lighting 50 effigies, hitting 250 things, gathering 100,000 items, or any other form of grind. When players are given a limited window to complete tasks, it can be frustrating if the tasks require large amounts of time.

Sure, I will make an “unedumacated” attempt to answer your issues.

1. Stealing what? Anet would like to know… Going AFK doesn’t prevent or promote any achievements that I know of… Griefing – well sure, isn’t that a pain in all MMOs?

2. It has been stated by Colin Johanson that the new content will be “relatively self contained”. Missing story – non issue.

3. and 5. They are the same. You are essentially talking about grinding. What MMO doesn’t have grinding. They all do AND they all will… Also, RNG has no place in discussion of Living Story.

4. What kind of achievements do you want?? Some encourage participation in a group while others are solo … You have me confuzzled on that one…

In this case, more content is better, especially when each team is releasing them 2 months apart.

Well wishes all.

bribrim.9710:

1. Stealing what? Anet would like to know… Going AFK doesn’t prevent or promote any achievements that I know of… Griefing – well sure, isn’t that a pain in all MMOs?

Stealing kills/loot

GW2 has implemented a system where players are required to kill X number of enemies, which drop RNG boxes (Holograms, SAB, etc.). Because players are credited with the kill/loot if they do a certain amount of damage, they often attempt to beat other players to these, and kill the enemies before others can.

Akitten

the Dragon Ball game, players were required to play 20 games for an achievement. Because players were not kicked for being AFK, they realized they could do this, and still get the achievement.

Also Jormag to some extent. Players can AFK through the first stage of the fight, get a few hits in the second, and still receive the rewards.

Griefing

Adding an achievement into the WvW jumping puzzle means that players not well versed in WvW are thrown into a situation in which they are easy targets for guilds that work together (I’m looking at you kitten ).

bribrim.9710:

2. It has been stated by Colin Johanson that the new content will be “relatively self contained”. Missing story – non issue.

Well, if that is the direction, then at least it’s a start. It does suck for players with limited time to miss large portions of the story, especially if the story is a continuation over many, many months, and overlap.

bribrim.9710:

3. and 5. They are the same. You are essentially talking about grinding. What MMO doesn’t have grinding. They all do AND they all will… Also, RNG has no place in discussion of Living Story.

I’m talking about large amounts of grind, with limited time, and other tasks to complete. RNG is fine, but I feel that not giving players the option to earn, or buy items and only offering items through RNG is bad. Think of the thousands of Coffers people have had to earn, and open to get tickets. A casual player is forced to buy RNG boxes, or accept the will probably not get a ticket.

bribrim.9710:

4. What kind of achievements do you want?? Some encourage participation in a group while others are solo … You have me confuzzled on that one…

Achievements IMO should be geared so the largest percentage of players can achieve them, regardless of playing style.

For example, dungeons should have path difficulty options, and/or scale to suit the level, and number of players entering. Requiring a player to go solo, or with a group, without the option makes many players cranky.

@Crazylegmurphy.6430

Re Stealing – Oh please cmon your telling me your crying foul cos someone in an OPENWORLD environment happens to run past and grabs a kill or two is really an issue. Sure it maybe un asked for but the key is… its OPENWORLD and as such if another player or players enter your immediate vicinity the first thing that happens is trash mobs will respawn faster.. if its a vet/champ/boss mob you will have more than enpugh time (or should) to get enpugh of a tickle on it to ensure your chance of a loot drop is registered….. stealing – — – please be more sensible and less sensitive.

Re Griefing… yip I agree this has been a paing, but then again show me an MMO where there is no opportunity to do this… maybe a few but many still allow it, mainly because you cant always eliminate human nature or maybe even a call of nature.

Re Griefing – its an MMO with global participation and has been in game as long as RNG has. Added to that you mention WvWvW… which part of that don’t you understand, what you call griefing in WvWvW, I call good tactics. Its not just a jump puzzle, the main prize from OS is the badges and the blueprints for.. oh yes using against your opponents. I Any good WvWvW server will want to try to limit an opponents siege supply – that is not griefing that is sound tactic. Sure ANET have placed a cache in there for a limited amount of time… but if you want it and the achievement then you first have to weigh up the risk and rewards based on the fact it is in a battlezone and you might just fall foul of enemy tactics.. you call it griefing, I call it fair game.. consider going in with a group or rally others on the server to help out., cos I believe going solo can make you too cranky anyway!

Re Living Story against player time.. sorry but how do you expect ANET to design their content.. go back to old game models and admit defeat with their ideas on creating a fresh method of delivering Living Story openworld content that is open to all and that incorporates its own set of goals in order to progress the story. The develop content that already incorporates lengthy timescales from chapter to chapter – what more can they do except maybe put in some kind of time freeze to extend the £experience" until all the players have gotten there achievements then move on

Re Grinding/RNG – Its MMO show me one that doesn’t incorporate a grind… you see that term is open to interpretation imo. what you consider to be a grind I may say isn’t (see what I did there). No one forces you to undertake any grind that you don’t want to, but if you really cant do without the achieves then that’s you choice.
RNG is as old as the hills, you perhaps don’t realise every time you looted a chest, scavenged items off a corpse RNG has always been hidden behind it. Some items can be bought some you just got to roll the dice and take your chance… if your buying things like coffers then that’s your risk.. your certainly not forced to buy anything in GW2 its player preference. Perhaps you had not realised but ANET/NcSoft are not charity organisations and as such needs hooks to entice you, me and all the playerbase to part with some cash, nothing wrong with that – businesses all over the globe utilise the very same conditions in order to generate a profit.

Re Achievements – What is it you consider to be the larger percentage of players… the few who have whinned about not being able to do the AR dungeon cos if that is your sample size I am sorry but I think your way off. I would hazard a guess that the larger percentage of the actual game population does not see any issues..
As I said in your other thread I can support dungeon scaling as long as the trade offs are absolute and don’t allow the game to be walked thro on EASY MODE… when you say it makes many players cranky.. care to prove that cos again I think your sadly in the minority on that one

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

lordkrall.7241:

So, you basically want to go back to the old model with a bit new content every 6 months or so?

People don’t NEED to do the achievements. The rewards you get for doing them are cosmetic and isn’t required to play the game.

The Living story is trying to make the world seem alive, and for it to seem alive stuff must keep happening at a rather rapid pace, otherwise it would just feel weird.

Are you so sure it has to be an all, or nothing solution?

I don’t NEED to play the game at all. I WANT to play the game. However, of the tasks I’m being presented with are consistently requiring large amounts of time to complete, yet are only available for a limited time, it becomes futile.

Your last argument is incorrect. There is a difference between a flashy, car salesman approach, and a personal, well considered, well paced story.

We don’t have to do all the Living Story events. I have totally skipped two already. so yout point is moot

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

lordkrall.7241:

And yet nothing in these Living Story releases have required “large amounts of time”.
Effigy could be done in about 2 hours (and 2 hours during the course of a month is very little), the pinatas could be completed around that amount of time as well. And the candy eating could be done in 2 minutes more or less.

How is it incorrect?
Would the real world feel living if everything was put on hold for two weeks because you hadn’t experienced it yet?
How about WW2? Should we remake that so that you can participate in it, since you missed it?

I’m sorry, but your arguments are so far beyond ridiculous that it won’t do either of us any good to continue. If its all the same, I’ll wait for other responses.

You’re just a whiny little kid, please get off the internet. You have no arguments what so ever. If ArenaNet released content every 2 month it would feel wierd, with living story and living world it has to happen more frequent. You don’t have or don’t need to participate in any of the events, if you want you do it, if you can’t then you can’t.

UrMom.4205:

It’s a living story, the world is alive, stuff happens and the world moves on. Here is a real world example.

Hey, here’s something…this is a video game, NOT the real world!

I missed the flame and frost dungeon, but i asked about it in LA and heard some really great stories.

Yeah, reading ABOUT content sounds like sooooo much fun…. I don’t think so!

Also look at it from the business model, they have a game, that is almost one year old. An MMO needs people in it, hell any game needs people playing it. With this model, the feeling you are feeling right now, the feeling of possibly missing some content that you want to play, is exactly why they are doing it this way. In attempts to get you to log in daily, weekly, etc. and play their game.

Unfortunately you are just wrong here, for WoW, being the biggest MMO ever did NOT need a living story to have over 10million people playing their game. Can AreaNet boast as much??

However, to top all this off I have to say, the living story/world concept is brilliant, but there is a problem with execution here. The events in each zone give a much greater feeling of a ‘living world’ than the living story itself. There is really nothing “living” about the story at all: it is planned content, with a planned end date and the temporary nature of this content creates an illusion of a living story. A true living world would introduce something like the Aetherblades, have a main story surrounding it which comes to a close at some point, but the faction really should persist as should some of it’s content to truly give a feeling of a living world, where the Aetherblades continue to have affects upon zones, NPSs, and other pre-existing content.

I want a Living World.

I love being able to involve my characters in the newest updates to Tyria and much of the temporary content has been brilliant. I have a particular fondness for the Halloween and Wintersday jumping puzzles, the Molten Facility and the Aetherblade Retreat and Super Adventure Box. Of those highlights, I would only have wished for the last to stay persistant. I hope that when Arenanet does bring it back (as they have promised) it stays for the long haul.

This balance between temporary and permanent is incredibly important to the success or failure of the Living World and surrounding features. We know of some future core features that are more than likely to stick around (LFG tool, Player Housing and Guild Halls) and when such updates are brought into the game it is likely to be alongside the Living Story. The developers have also said that adding the temporary dungeons to Fractals of the Mists and revamping the core dungeons will be done alongside the Living Story.

The issue so far has been that the bulk of the content added in these Living Story updates has been temporary. At the very least, there needs to be a more equal balance going forward. However, this is something Arenanet are aware of and addressing. Being able to hear the active feedback of players every two weeks will help them refine the process, so please post constructive feedback in order to help the devs create the content you want to see in the game!

Couldn’t agree more Safer Saviour. Although many people seem to have the idea that if ALL living story isnt temporary then we regress to old MMO models, this just isn’t the case. If option A is too temporary, and option B is the stagnant then new options are there…it doesn’t have to be A or B and that’s it.
I’m glad that AreaNet is taking all these things into consideration, and as long as they continue to work and improve their game, I will play it. Guild wars is a good game, and living world is a great concept, they just need to tweak it

I still think living story is a good idea, but less so that is a good idea for GW2.

Halloween was the best temp content they delivered (but that was made before release I’m sure, and even that had flaws), then F&F was great except for being too drawn out and the way they handled the dungeon.

They have reacted to the complaints about the time between changes and this summer so far we’ve had a flurry of updates. So far so good. In my opinion the quality of those updates has fallen far, though. If I have to compromise the quality (and with some of bugs and exploits it was a serious issue) to get the fast updates, I would rather not have them.

Scale back to one patch a month, alternating big and small to buy time for more engaging content* in the big ones, and you still put out way more then any sub game. That’s good enough and it allows them to keep a higher quality standard.

*Engaging content: most of the updates have some of that, but its drowned out by clicking (F) on 150 things. Jumping puzzles, mini dungeons, actual instances are all good. The issue I have is that depending on the team that worked on any given update, they do two things right or better but at the same regress on other aspects of the update. Slower updates would also allow each team to make changes to their upcoming monthly release based on player feedback.

MMO players can be divided into 3 categories:
1) the casual happy player = a player who doesn’t take the game seriously because he/she is aware of the personal time limitations for achieving goals.
2) the professional achievement hunter = a player who has a lot of time to dedicate into the game and because of this he/she is not visibly affected by the time schedules / limits on quests, events, living story, etc.
3) the casual achievement hunter = a player who has started to play the game as a happy casual and turned into an achievement hunter.
These are the un-happiest players because they set up goals for themselves which can’t be achieved due to their time limit and personal time limitations

My advice is:
if you start as a happy casual player and you know your time limitations for playing the game, try to remain the same and not turn into an achievement hunter more then possible. If you are able to overpass this disappointment and frustration given by your personal time limitations, then you will still enjoy the rest of your time in the game,

I’m partly casual, i suppose. I never set a goal that seems ridiculous given my time constraint, which is about a few hours a day on weekdays (unless i work overtime) and a bit more on weekend. I didnt aim for a legendary within a few months (i do work for it but i expect to be done with it not for a loooooong time more)

that aside, i love customizing my toons. every next new toon i make, id slowly save up (using the older toons) the mats/prequisites needed to gear him/her up, stats wise and aesthetics wise. I was happy with this but even then i gotta admit the skins i like werent that many. Now add the new skins they pop up every now and then, yes im excited abt em. finally added options to the lack of choices the original content hado t then they had to gate them now with ridiculous RNG or severe thresholds (super heavy grind/accumulation of prequisites etc) AND have to be achieved within a limited time… then this is where i start fuming. im not even trying to be the highest achievement hoarder, the richest player nor stash full of legendaries. I just wanna gear my toons to my liking. adn even then i dont aim for all of them to have full ascended trinkets or such. which is what i wanted to do when i first started anyhow. thus see how the change in direction these new content can be.

The OP summed up how I feel about it exactly.

I am achievement oriented but I am relaxed about obtaining achievements. I’m not pushed to get them immediately and frankly don’t have the time to grind things out quickly. As long as I can gain them steadily at whatever pace I want to set for myself, I’m happy.

I don’t have a problem with things in the game that I will never do or get. I doubt I will ever have a legendary weapon. I don’t have the time or desire to put in what it takes to get one. I’m OK with that. If I change my mind, and decide that I will put forth the effort it takes to get one, well they aren’t on some deadline that rules out that possibility.

I don’t object to the living story itself or to things being released monthly. I do object to it being then removed as that puts an arbitrary deadline on doing the content.

I realize that some of the the achievements can be done in a couple of hours. However, there is an entire list of achievements. How long will it take to do all the achievements? What does it take to get all the rewards? If the content and achievements and rewards were permanent, that wouldn’t be a problem.

I realize that I don’t have to do them. I realize that in real life birthdays, weddings, and other one time events happen and you have to participate in them at that time. However, this is a game, not real life. The deadlines that are put into place aren’t based on real life deadlines. They are arbitrarily chosen deadlines.

In the end, games are about what you want to do, not what you have to do. Games don’t have to be played at all. They are what you do for fun.

Well, the debate will go on and the game developers will do what they do. I will decide if what they do is compatible with what I like and either stay and enjoy the game or play less and less until I drift away.

It all comes down to time with casual gamers. Well, I aint got time for dat. Why choose to spoil it for hardcore gamers? It’s that belly aching about I want this now or I need this now. I don’t have time because I work. Well 90 percent of all hardcore gamers work, how the hell do we pay for games if we don’t. We still get our gaming in, we still party with friends we still pay attention to our families. It’s just that we are actual gamers, our wives or husbands are gamers, our children are gamers. This isn’t just some pass time. We were born with controllers in our hands and the industry in our hearts. We didn’t just pick it up because we wanted to pass time. This is our time.

And leaving content in the game ruins it for you? How?

Being unable to complete past living story content is causing me to NOT want to complete (nor even attempt) future living story content.

I tried to get a party together for F&F 5-man dungeon. I ended up running it 3 times and the group fell apart each and every time. I never got my gauntlet ticket. When I see another player wearing the fused gauntlets, it’s like ANet is slapping me in the face and laughing maniacally while shouting “You already bought and paid for it! Refunds?!?! HAHAHAHA! Read the end-user license agreement. We don’t do ‘Refunds’, sucker! HAHAHA!”. Either that or the scene in the film ‘A Christmas Story’ where Santa gives the kid the boot…literally. That’s what it feels like ArenaNet.

I’m not even going to log on for BotFW. I may not log on to GW2 ever again. The living story is driving me (and others like me) away from the game.

I liked the way living story sounded to begin with, but I expected them to be actual content updates, not temporary acheivment point farms that go away in a few weeks.

At this point I’m starting to think they should just have done proper expansions or campaigns like they did with GW1, because living story so far just feels like a joke being told at the expense of the players.

I completely agree that lighting 50 effigies is definitely not fun.
However, you don’t really have to complete the achievements.
I’ll only complete the achievements if they seem managable and fun. I’m mostly playing WvW, PvP or FoTM so if none of the achievements cater to me, then I’ll just skip them.
I’m not trying to justify the content, because the achievements could be much better. But it’s really about realising that it’s a game, and what you spend your time on should be fun. Even though it seems tempting to gather all the achievement points you can, what does it matter if you were bored doing it?
The truth is that nobody gives a kitten about how many achievements you have completed, or how many shiny weapons you have. If you do not like the grind that is needed for a legendary then don’t do it, because no one else cares if you have a legendary.
The winner is not the guy with most achievement-points, but the guy that had the most fun.