“The Elder Dragon is no more”
(edited by Arden.7480)
Living World 3 vs Raid Narrative
He also stated that the stories are not necessarily separate, and may have an impact on each other. Don’t partially quote.
Also, game elements =/= story elements. He was saying that the raids are not necessary to experience the Living World and vice versa.
Rev, Ele, Burnzerker
“Beware he who would deny you access to information,
for in his heart he dreams himself your master.”
“Beware he who would deny you access to information,
for in his heart he dreams himself your master.”
Full quote for reference:
“Hey there. I’ve been seeing some comments regarding the story and lore in the Forsaken Thicket raid, and how that fits into Guild Wars 2. We appreciate your enthusiasm! Just wanted to clarify a few things:
It will not be necessary to play Forsaken Thicket—or any future raid—in order to complete Living World or expansion stories. Raids do not gate main story progress.
Raid stories can—and should—be thematically tied to Tyrian lore and enhance the game.
If any lore information from the raids is relevant to storylines in other content, we’ll make sure that information is also available in that other content.
Raids present story in a different manner than elsewhere in the game. They are not a replacement for Living World, expansion, or Personal Story.
Output from the raids team isn’t coming at the expense of other projects in development. Raids are made independently of Living World. We do communicate regularly with that team (and we share some resources and assets in both directions) but neither team prevents the other from doing its job.
The Forsaken Thicket story will conclude with the release of Stronghold of the Faithful on June 14.
Raids are not part of our Living World episodes; they are separate game elements.
More information regarding Living World Season 3 will be announced in the future. As always, content will be released when it is ready to ensure the optimal quality for our fans. Hang tight.
I hope this helps people understand things a bit better. Thanks!”
-Bobby Stein
Rev, Ele, Burnzerker
“Beware he who would deny you access to information,
for in his heart he dreams himself your master.”
“Beware he who would deny you access to information,
for in his heart he dreams himself your master.”
It is about semantics.
They aren’t part of living story because living story is developed by another team within ArenaNet -
But once you look at it from the player perspective, that proves to be false. The game world and story should be seemless, regardless of who at Anet developed them.
We’ll see for sure next week, but it really does seem that our first introduction to one of the LS3 antagonists and conflicts were definitely introduced through the raids to a small percentage of players.
Yes I know and this point “Raids are not part of our Living World episodes; they are separate game elements.” doesnt fit for others.
“The Elder Dragon is no more”
It doesnt mean 2 other groups:
“Raids are not part of our Living World episodes; they are separate game elements.”
He said about 2 groups- LS3 and Raid before, when he said LS and Raids are “separate game elements”
Not separate group elements, but separate game elements.
“The Elder Dragon is no more”
It is about semantics.
They aren’t part of living story because living story is developed by another team within ArenaNet -
But once you look at it from the player perspective, that proves to be false. The game world and story should be seemless, regardless of who at Anet developed them.
We’ll see for sure next week, but it really does seem that our first introduction to one of the LS3 antagonists and conflicts were definitely introduced through the raids to a small percentage of players.
Semantics? So it is just nitpicking.
Why does it matter if the antagonists were introduced with raids as long as you get the full story through the LS? Because it twists your jimmies? That’s hardly something for the ANet staff to be overly concerned about, there’s always going to be overly passionate people that are upset about something they do (or didn’t do).
And, it wasn’t released to a small percentage of players, it was released in raids, which is open to everyone, just only a small percentage of players have risen to that task.
I meant it is semantics on their part. Sometimes, when you are too close to something, it’s hard to see it. They make the statement about Living Story and raids being separate because it is from their perspective.
From the player perspective however, it is all just GW2 PVE. We expect a cohesive and accessible story, regardless of playstyle, builds, etc. We expect that because that is what we’ve had in the game since launch. Raiding is taking it in another direction, but it doesn’t have to – tiered difficulties would cleanly fix the issues and give Anet the ability to use raids as part of the story.
I see it this way, there will probably be a recap of sorts of the Raid events in game. For those of us who haven’t raided (although I have closely followed the stories in the raid wings). Also they may have us walk through the raid areas seemingly after the events there have happened, just for a reference point. this way the PC will have the story behind the events there.
Just because they are not dependent upon each other doesn’t mean that those who don’t raid will be denied the story that went on there…
Or the raid story could merely be a side story which holds little weight to the living story. No recap then needed other than a mention of anything relevant.
It’s be like if Ibli and Tizlak had a raid instance that showed the story of them from when Mordrmoth awoke to where they ran into the player. It would be a nice side story but certainly not required for the HoT story. The only thing they had in common would be the central theme but one is just a minor piece which doesn’t progress the overall story.
(edited by Ayrilana.1396)
I meant it is semantics on their part. Sometimes, when you are too close to something, it’s hard to see it. They make the statement about Living Story and raids being separate because it is from their perspective.
From the player perspective however, it is all just GW2 PVE. We expect a cohesive and accessible story, regardless of playstyle, builds, etc. We expect that because that is what we’ve had in the game since launch. Raiding is taking it in another direction, but it doesn’t have to – tiered difficulties would cleanly fix the issues and give Anet the ability to use raids as part of the story.
First, while I don’t want to derail by getting into details, multi tiered raids would be anything but clean.
The story though will all be accessible, the narrative in the raids will either not matter or be fully explained and caught up with the LS. You’re not going to miss anything, that’s what they promised. Even if you don’t get to “experience” the story in the raid, you won’t miss the story, it will be told. That’s not semantics that’s strait up what they said.
Or the raid story could merely be a side story which holds little weight to the living story. No recap then needed other than a mention of anything relevant.
It’s be like if Ibli and Tizlak had a raid instance that showed the story of them from when Mordrmoth awoke to where they ran into the player. It would be a nice side story but certainly not required for the HoT story. The only thing they had in common would be the central theme but one is just a minor piece which doesn’t progress the overall story.
You bring up a good point. If the raid had not touched on the themes from the upcoming living story – but had, instead, been a side story unrelated to the main story arc of HOT but still in the same area (such as the example you cite above or just a generic bunch of mordrem kidnapping random pact members), then this particular issue would be far less of a problem. It is the introduction of the likely antagonist and conflict from the upcoming story that I have an issue with (if that is indeed what they have done, as many suspect).
I would still have strong issues with raids and accessibility, but at least the storytelling would be cleaner.
Because of the exclusive nature of raid I can understand the fustration of general casual player. No one wants to come into the story midway through, you can see the constant request for ls1 to return in story journal even though it is clear that it probably won’t happen.
There was really only two solutions anet had to avoid this.
1. Make the raid separate and conclude after w3, like 24 of the 25 explorable dungeon paths, the original exclusive content. This could have been done by replacing Xera with Lazarus. Defeating Lazarus would bookend the story and noone would complain.
2. Release easier story versions of the raid wings simultaneously. Make them 5 man with less mechanics. Have them reward only champ bags, nothing else. Keep the good rewards for raid completion only. That way casuals can still experience the story and it would be very similar how all the dungeons have story mode.
It’s a trailer. It’s not unusual for companies to reuse assets. I wouldn’t be to concerned about it.
It is not matter of reusing. It surprised me very much that in LS3 Trailer ANet showed scenes from Wing 3, but one month earlier He said that LS3 and Raids are separate elements… I thought that LS3 will tell about aftermath of Mordremoth’s Death- Glint’s Egg, Rata Novus, Ley Line Activities… And I wonder what is the connection with White Mantle… Is it trailer for Raid and LS3?
“The Elder Dragon is no more”
(edited by Arden.7480)
It’s a trailer for LS3.
It’s a trailer for LS3.
I hope so, but I did not expect the White Mantle thread in the LS3 Trailer.
But we will know everything soon.
“The Elder Dragon is no more”
It is not matter of reusing. It surprised me very much that in LS3 Trailer ANet showed scenes from Wing 3, but one month earlier He said that LS3 and Raids are separate elements… I thought that LS3 will tell about aftermath of Mordremoth’s Death- Glint’s Egg, Rata Novus, Ley Line Activities… And I wonder what is the connection with White Mantle… Is it trailer for Raid and LS3?
Quoted directly from Bobby Stein:
“Hey there. I’ve been seeing some comments regarding the story and lore in the Forsaken Thicket raid, and how that fits into Guild Wars 2. We appreciate your enthusiasm! Just wanted to clarify a few things:
It will not be necessary to play Forsaken Thicket—or any future raid—in order to complete Living World or expansion stories. Raids do not gate main story progress.
Raid stories can—and should—be thematically tied to Tyrian lore and enhance the game.
If any lore information from the raids is relevant to storylines in other content, we’ll make sure that information is also available in that other content.
Raids present story in a different manner than elsewhere in the game. They are not a replacement for Living World, expansion, or Personal Story.
Output from the raids team isn’t coming at the expense of other projects in development. Raids are made independently of Living World. We do communicate regularly with that team (and we share some resources and assets in both directions) but neither team prevents the other from doing its job.
The Forsaken Thicket story will conclude with the release of Stronghold of the Faithful on June 14.
Raids are not part of our Living World episodes; they are separate game elements.
More information regarding Living World Season 3 will be announced in the future. As always, content will be released when it is ready to ensure the optimal quality for our fans. Hang tight.
I hope this helps people understand things a bit better. Thanks!”
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raid-Narrative-and-Lore/first#post6195598
They did not say that raids would be completely separate, in fact “Raid stories can—and should—be thematically tied to Tyrian lore and enhance the game”. Anything they do bring from the raids to the LS will be presented as part of the LS itself to make sure no one is missing anything.
As for wondering about what LS3 will cover, it will likely cover all of those things but we will have to wait and play it to find out precisely what it covers. How about we play it before we preemptively decide its bad just because its new?
Rev, Ele, Burnzerker
“Beware he who would deny you access to information,
for in his heart he dreams himself your master.”
“Beware he who would deny you access to information,
for in his heart he dreams himself your master.”
I read this topic, I considered everything and this “separate” sounds very seriously.
“Raids are not part of our Living World”. But we can see they are.
“The Elder Dragon is no more”
It’s a trailer for LS3.
I hope so, but I did not expect the White Mantle thread in the LS3 Trailer.
But we will know everything soon.
Why can’t the white mantle be part of the living story? They were part of the personal story.
I read this topic, I considered everything and this “separate” sounds very seriously.
“Raids are not part of our Living World”. But we can see they are.
Raids are not part of our Living World means that you won’t be required to participate in a raid in order to experience the Living World and vice versa, not that they won’t tie into each other. Read the rest of the quote
Rev, Ele, Burnzerker
“Beware he who would deny you access to information,
for in his heart he dreams himself your master.”
“Beware he who would deny you access to information,
for in his heart he dreams himself your master.”
I read this topic, I considered everything and this “separate” sounds very seriously.
“Raids are not part of our Living World”. But we can see they are.
They’re a separate GAME element, and there will be a recap of what happened in the raid wings somewhere in the beginning of LS3…or you could enter a COMPLETED raid wing just to experience the story.
First, whatever the situation is, ANet can’t change it today. LS3 comes out in less than a week and the first Raid (and its 3 wings) is already here.
Second, speculate all your like, but isn’t it much too soon to be getting mad at ANet for what they might have done?
Finally, if LS3 is fun, with a good yarn and interesting challenges, combat, then how much does the community (as a whole) really care about what’s in LS3, what’s in Taimi’s logs, what’s in raids? And if it’s boring or tedious to play, then how much will it matter if ANet stuck to the letter & spirit of Stein’s quote above?
tl;dr I’m waiting for the actual 3rd Season of the Living Story to go live. After playing it at least once through, I’ll consider whether it deserves any game-centric moral outrage (as different from the moral outrage we reserve for RL).
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
Why would you even care if they are seperate or not? Be happy you’ll get some experience from the Raids too
‘’Many have eyes, but few have seen.’’ – Scriptures of Lyssa, 45 BE
I am very happy that LS3 is connected (in some way) with Raid Narrative, and I expected that something will be from the Wing 3. But the words from statement confused me.
“Raid stories can—and should—be thematically tied to Tyrian lore and enhance the game.
If any lore information from the raids is relevant to storylines in other content, we’ll make sure that information is also available in that other content.”
But: “Raids are not part of our Living World episodes; they are separate game elements.”
I cannot understand this paradox.
“The Elder Dragon is no more”
Game element: like Living World, PvP Tournaments, WvW Tournaments, SAB, Raids…separate game elements.
No need to participate in WvW or PvP Tournaments, or SAB, or Raids or any other separate element to enjoy and complete these Living World episodes.
Maybe some are confusing game elements with storylines; I’m not sure.
I am very happy that LS3 is connected (in some way) with Raid Narrative, and I expected that something will be from the Wing 3. But the words from statement confused me.
“Raid stories can—and should—be thematically tied to Tyrian lore and enhance the game.
If any lore information from the raids is relevant to storylines in other content, we’ll make sure that information is also available in that other content.”But: “Raids are not part of our Living World episodes; they are separate game elements.”
I cannot understand this paradox.
Ever seen a filler episode of a TV show? They aren’t necessary to watch to get the story, but they do provide backstory and character development. It can enhance the story, but isn’t required for the big picture. That’s what it sounds like they’re doing to me.
So it isn’t a paradox. They don’t expect people to have raided to get the full story. The raid narrative just might have ties to that story and may enhance it in some way, or not.
I am very happy that LS3 is connected (in some way) with Raid Narrative, and I expected that something will be from the Wing 3. But the words from statement confused me.
“Raid stories can—and should—be thematically tied to Tyrian lore and enhance the game.
If any lore information from the raids is relevant to storylines in other content, we’ll make sure that information is also available in that other content.”But: “Raids are not part of our Living World episodes; they are separate game elements.”
I cannot understand this paradox.
Ever seen a filler episode of a TV show? They aren’t necessary to watch to get the story, but they do provide backstory and character development. It can enhance the story, but isn’t required for the big picture. That’s what it sounds like they’re doing to me.
So it isn’t a paradox. They don’t expect people to have raided to get the full story. The raid narrative just might have ties to that story and may enhance it in some way, or not.
but this feels more like if, let’s say, world’s top athletes were let in a cinema 15 minutes earlier to see the part of Superman movie when Krypton gets destroyed. only then the rest can come in and get told “he’s from Krypton, it exploded, no one else survived”. sure, you don’t NEED to see that part to get the rest of the movie, but it still kinda sucks…
and then someone tells them "you should have become top athletes too, then you’d have been able to see it.
I am very happy that LS3 is connected (in some way) with Raid Narrative, and I expected that something will be from the Wing 3. But the words from statement confused me.
“Raid stories can—and should—be thematically tied to Tyrian lore and enhance the game.
If any lore information from the raids is relevant to storylines in other content, we’ll make sure that information is also available in that other content.”But: “Raids are not part of our Living World episodes; they are separate game elements.”
I cannot understand this paradox.
Ever seen a filler episode of a TV show? They aren’t necessary to watch to get the story, but they do provide backstory and character development. It can enhance the story, but isn’t required for the big picture. That’s what it sounds like they’re doing to me.
So it isn’t a paradox. They don’t expect people to have raided to get the full story. The raid narrative just might have ties to that story and may enhance it in some way, or not.
but this feels more like if, let’s say, world’s top athletes were let in a cinema 15 minutes earlier to see the part of Superman movie when Krypton gets destroyed. only then the rest can come in and get told “he’s from Krypton, it exploded, no one else survived”. sure, you don’t NEED to see that part to get the rest of the movie, but it still kinda sucks…
and then someone tells them "you should have become top athletes too, then you’d have been able to see it.
I think you’re giving raiders way more credit than they deserve, the hardest part is just having the time to organize a party from what I’ve seen so far( just wing1 cleared so far for me).
But, yeah I can understand the frustration of wanting something from another game mode. I’d love if WvW got the love that sPVP does, or if I could get the Sinister Trinkets without putting myself to sleep while I spend 5 minutes listening to chatter again because I made a mistake on an achievement attempt. I can understand that. But, doesn’t mean that they have done anything against what they stated in regards to Raid narrative and the overall story.
Your example is great though. Superman’s backstory was left at being from a now destroyed Krypton for a long time. It was years until someone decided to expand on that backstory, that whole time we were never at a loss for not knowing what happened to Krypton in more detail.
So I kind of see this frustration as something like wanting to know all the information in the Silmarillion but not wanting to spend the time to read what is basically an encyclopedia. I still love the Hobbit and LOTR series but I can’t get myself to read the Silmarillion, however thanks to third party sources I’ve run across I’ve gotten quite a bit of that information in an easier/more entertaining way.
So I kind of see this frustration as something like wanting to know all the information in the Silmarillion but not wanting to spend the time to read what is basically an encyclopedia. I still love the Hobbit and LOTR series but I can’t get myself to read the Silmarillion, however thanks to third party sources I’ve run across I’ve gotten quite a bit of that information in an easier/more entertaining way.
Problem is, anyone CAN read the Silmarillion, as long as they have the book and the ability to read. Even if you don’t have the time, you can read it bit by bit. Ten minutes on the morning bus is enough for you to one day finish reading it.
Raids are a completely different beast. There are people that simply won’t ever be able to raid, because they have jobs, because they have families, because other things prevent them from spending hours setting up a raid, and dozens of hours learning the first three wings. That’s not a question how much you want it, that’s a question of how much you are physically able to.
Those people were previously just fine playing the singleplayer aspect of the game, because it can come at its own pace. Now they’re being penalized for it even though what was previously said suggested otherwise. That’s just not fair.
I’m not saying raid stories shouldn’t send ripples to overall continuity, but they should be a completely separate minor storyline. Between the trailer and the “interview” with Queen Jennah, White Mantle are setting up to be direct sequel to Forsaken Thicket.
So I kind of see this frustration as something like wanting to know all the information in the Silmarillion but not wanting to spend the time to read what is basically an encyclopedia. I still love the Hobbit and LOTR series but I can’t get myself to read the Silmarillion, however thanks to third party sources I’ve run across I’ve gotten quite a bit of that information in an easier/more entertaining way.
Problem is, anyone CAN read the Silmarillion, as long as they have the book and the ability to read. Even if you don’t have the time, you can read it bit by bit. Ten minutes on the morning bus is enough for you to one day finish reading it.
Raids are a completely different beast. There are people that simply won’t ever be able to raid, because they have jobs, because they have families, because other things prevent them from spending hours setting up a raid, and dozens of hours learning the first three wings. That’s not a question how much you want it, that’s a question of how much you are physically able to.
Those people were previously just fine playing the singleplayer aspect of the game, because it can come at its own pace. Now they’re being penalized for it even though what was previously said suggested otherwise. That’s just not fair.
I’m not saying raid stories shouldn’t send ripples to overall continuity, but they should be a completely separate minor storyline. Between the trailer and the “interview” with Queen Jennah, White Mantle are setting up to be direct sequel to Forsaken Thicket.
“Anyone can do it as long as….”
You see how you take the reading part for granted but then come up with every reason you CAN’T raid (not just choose not to)?
And, you’re not being penalized, they’re not going and taking something away from everyone who doesn’t raid. You’re just not getting what the raiders get.
It’s not fair that Hugh Hefner gets to live in a mansion full of beautiful ladies, but that’s life.
And, you’re not being penalized, they’re not going and taking something away from everyone who doesn’t raid. You’re just not getting what the raiders get.
I’m not being penalized at all, I farm the raids on a weekly basis. But I think that raiders getting legendary armor, exclusive skins and other shiny trophies is enough. Basic game content (which the Living/Personal story is, no matter how you frame it) should not be part of an exclusive package.
. . . And the living/personal story is not part of an exclusive package
Not to mention most of the raid lore is accessible to anyone who enters a cleared raid instance.
“Anyone can do it as long as….”
You see how you take the reading part for granted
Yes, because anyone that doesn’t know how to read wouldn’t be able to read Lord of the Rings either. The requirements are exactly the same for both.
That’s not the case for raids and LS3.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
“Anyone can do it as long as….”
You see how you take the reading part for granted
Yes, because anyone that doesn’t know how to read wouldn’t be able to read Lord of the Rings either. The requirements are exactly the same for both.
That’s not the case for raids and LS3.
But there are movies! ;b
Not to mention most of the raid lore is accessible to anyone who enters a cleared raid instance.
Picking up the pieces from someone else’s grand adventure. Wow, that sure sounds like the best story experience ever.
Imagine going to the cinema to see the Avengers, but since you’re not considered “cool” or “pro” enough, you’d only follow the adventures of Johnny McNoname sifting through the rubble in New York after both the heroes and spacemonsters left and literally all you have is passers by (NPC) telling you they saw an awesome thing and some paper scraps with apocalyptic notes (bandit journals). All that while your next door neighbor is one of the “privileged” (guildie that has the time to raid) rants to you how awesome it was to see the actual Avengers.
You get literally the same experience (or possibly worse) like a person who just reads the wiki, is told of the story by their friend or watches one of WPs videos. And again, neither of those is why people play videogames.
And since all that comes with the fact that non-raidy people basically just had almost a year with little to no actual story content, that just comes as a bit too much of a punch in the teeth.
(And to be honest, I feel kinda like quite the richard for being the “privileged” neighbor to my friends.)
I’m really curious how the content will be given to non-raiders in case of need. Right now I can think of three ways.
Either the information is “found out” by raiders and non-raiders in the same way, which sucks, ‘cause it makse raiding characters’ work not matter, turning it into what – some kind of unreal prophetic dream?
Or non-raiders get just a summary, which sucks too. One big black hole in many characters’ memories (LW1) is more than enough. That would make them just poor souls unable to hold their own history in their heads.
The third way would be different means of getting relevant information for raiding and non-raiding characters… Seems a bit difficult to do, though.