Guild Wars 2

anyone else find that the LS is too hard? ..I don’t mind the achievements being hard, I can live without the ap, but it’s pretty frustrating to not be able to complete an episode or if it to take so long that it becomes boring.

the chapt 8, dragon boss, I can not beat. I don’t have a bunch of people I can team up with…..and even if I did..it shouldn;t “require” that.

anyway,,,what I am wondering, is not whether people like the encounter or didn’t find it challenging, I’m wondering if there others who felt it’s too hard…that anet has starting to push to offering “challenging” encounters for those asking for it, but isn’t thinking about those who haven’t.

Again, I’m ok with the achieves being challenging…but the first run through shouldn’t be.

See, personally I think it should be challenging. And it is, in certain ways. But it’s not impossible to finish the chapters. And you are reading the words of someone who would consider himself the incompetence in person when it comes to being good at this game.
But I can try to help. What’s the part that you’re having the most problems with ?

that’s the thing…I think the story it self, shouldn’t be that difficult, but replays and achieves, should get progressively harder.

but I find these overly challenging encounters spoiling the story for me. (because I get frustrated/they take too long.)

Although, I’ve managed eventually to get through all of them (not achieves, for the most part I ignore those.) ..This, the dragon in chapt 8. I can’t do. and I know I’m going to need to party up for it, which is what annoys me.

I’d like to be able to just ‘experience’ the story solo…

so what I’m wondering, is if others also dislike the current direction anet is going with these encounters.

It’s not help I want, I’ll set an lfg later or sometime for it…perhaps. It’s just. I’d prefer if I didn’t have to. (again, I’m ok with the achieve being challenging and people getting rewarded for that.)
I’m just not really ok with how the encounters are atm, and surely I;m not the only one who would prefer easier for story/first run…. harder after.

I don’t find the boss mechanics hard, I find them extremely annoying.

I didn’t think it was hard either. I took my ranger, ele, mes and thief through it. Admittedly, my thief had the worst time with it, but still got through it solo.

I only found it hard/tricky the first time through. Once you’ve taken the time to study the enemies (click on them. Their descriptions are often quite useful in teaching you how to deal with them), stood back and just watched the boss rotations for a while, and knowing when/where enemies spawn, you can overcome a lot of the challenges by simply bringing the right skills/weapons and standing in the right spot.

fine…..I just suck…and everyone else had no bother with it……………………………….
my point in this thread, was to find others who don’t like the direction anet is going with these encounters. I don’t want challenging content forced on me, just to experience the story.
If this is the direction it’s going, I’m not interested and it’s disappointing..having everything else..story wise easy in this game ….which is what I liked.

I honestly understand that some people like challenging encounters…I just don’t think it should this challenging in first run of the story,…but after and increasingly so on replay.
That way, everyone wins.

I was hoping to find others who agree, not people who were going to tell me “well, I found the encounter ok”…I know some people do, but not everyone does.

Usually, I’m the first who complains that content is too difficult. But especially the last 3 episodes are fine from my point of view. Not the achievements (the centaur boss achievements are nearly impossible without expert help), but the normal story is ok.

I did the last 3 episodes with 3 different characters (elementalist, eecromancer, engineer), and it was no problem at all. Especially the dragon boss at the end. There is a certain mechanic behind the last fight, a certain choreography. If you understand how it is set up, you can beat the dragon.

Playing a ranged character in this fight is probably more easy than melee.

First, you destroy the vines and dodge red fields.
Then you attack the dragon.
Then you light the torches. If the exploding plants appear, look: they come in pairs, connected by a small vine. Run over this vine in the middle of both, and they explode without hurting you.
The tasks in this phase: 1st priority is make plants explode. Get light buff if Braham throws the light field, then light a torch. Repeat. Dodge the stones.
Then you attack the dragon and his vines again. Keep away from the red fields and circles, which are somewhat small.
Then you light the torches again. Do the same as before, but beware: now there are enemies who extinguish the torches. These are top priority. As soon as the light field appears, run into it and stay there to get the light buff that enables you to attack these enemies. Attack them. One hit is enough. Then light the torches.
It’s also more difficult to light the torches, because you are attacked more often by the dragon. Stay a bit away from a torch. Wait for 1 attack (red field) and evade it. Wait for 2nd attack (new red field) and as soon as the red field appears, dodge away to the torch and light it while staying outside of the red field. This gives you enough time for interacting.

Some fights were difficult to me and frustrating. I went through 2 sets of broken armor at World Summit boss. I rage quit at Fort Salma, Aerin and last ep 8 boss. I have no regrets for being bad at video game, never cared enough and never will. So yeah it was difficult to beat and you’re not the only one, Taygus.

My point was that many of the encounters are only difficult due to inexperience. Once you know what’s coming, and how to beat the encounter, they usually become quite simple. It’s similar to the King Toad fight in SAB World 1, for example. Josh Foreman even included a point on his post saying, “King Toad is too hard! What do I do?”, where he advises players to stand back and just observe him for a while to learn his pattern. Once you’ve fought him a few times, you can probably beat King Toad without taking a single hit.

So, while a lot of these fights may seem tough or tedious on the first go, don’t give up. Just step back a bit and take a look at it from a bigger perspective, and you’ll probably get an “Ohhhh, THAT’S what I’m supposed to do” moment.

At least Kukumuru agrees with us…

Silmar Alech.4305:

Usually, I’m the first who complains that content is too difficult. But especially the last 3 episodes are fine from my point of view. Not the achievements (the centaur boss achievements are nearly impossible without expert help), but the normal story is ok.

I spent far too much time in down state, that I gave up.

It’s far too much for me. And my problem with it, is that..to just experience the story…a little easier would’ve been nice.

I play games for the story and for an easy going experience. I generally avoid challenge. (I have enough in rl, I don’t need a game for that.)

and zax, you’re missing my point. I don’t like that anet is increasing the difficulty of the encounters.
Even if I know how to do something, doesn’t mean I can do it, and even if I can, it doesn’t mean it;s something I want to do more of.
(also, I’ve never participated in SAB)

I suppose I just hope anet… considers an easier option. with progressing difficulty for those who actually want it.

dirtynwah.3851:

At least Kukumuru agrees with us…

hehe, that made me smile! thanks

Fair enough. I acknowledge that an increasing skill plateau has been occurring, just as it did back in GW1 when Factions, Nightfall and Eye of the North came out. I was just trying to provide advice and tips on how to rise to meet the new challenge. Grouping up for these instances can also make them a lot easier in some cases.

Can’t say I had a whole heap of problems with, well, any of the LS chapters. I’ve done parts with a thief, a ranger, a necro. Doing it with a warrior would have been easy mode.

The fight with the dragon I did with my necro as she’s been doing LS2 chapters. I died a few times from some lag issues but eventually got through it. Challenging encounters whether it be the first time or tenth time through are always good in my book as long as it’s interesting.

I’ve had a bit of a bad day so I apologize for being a bit blunt, but these “LS fights are too hard!” posts have been springing up since Hidden Arcana (Glint’s Lair) and I’m a bit fed up with them.

Literally the only way I could imagine these fights being difficult is if you’re 1) Having technical issues, 2) Have a disability that limts your ability to react and/or process information or 3) Have extremely limited experience with, not just MMOs, but video games in general.

Don’t get me wrong, I sympathize with the frustration of not being able to beat an instance/mission/level on your first few attempts, but these fights are. not. hard. Even just a few minutes (or moments in some cases) of observation reveals that obvious mechanics are obvious. And if you don’t want to do that there are numerous third party gaming sites that publish both text based and video based guides detailing the strategies these bosses require. Hell, Dulfy usually has her guides up the day after an update is released. Sometimes even sooner!

I don’t expect every (or even most) players to be able to solo “Wicked Rodeo” or anything, but I for one don’t want to see Anet’s content designer’s shackled because the GW2 playerbase is too lazy to transition out of 2+ years of “stack and autoattack.”

Again, I’m sorry for being a bit sharp but the game is finally becoming not just interesting, but respectable. Something I can show my friends and not get laughed at…

If you want another go at it, Taygus, pop me a pm or look up Geirionydd in-game. I won’t be perfect, but I might be able to help out. I’ve done the instance twice now - the first was horrendous (yet I just about managed it), and the second I only went down once and managed to get back up again without too much trouble, since the mesmer downstate got fixed. I was also in that other thread you posted in on this boss, and did find some of the advice there very helpful - even if sometimes the delivery leaves a lot to be desired.

Again, I can’t promise to be perfect, but I can try and help out.

Edit: I should say, I pop number 2 on Krestfallen’s list above, so I know there’s every chance things won’t work out for me. It’s still annoying though! That’s why it’s good when the forums give advice from people who have completed things (again, even if the delivery sometimes leaves a lot to be desired). It’s definitely my go-to as a solo player.

Krestfallen sums up what i was about to type. Really guys.. l2p, its really not that hard. Isnt like somebody would expect you to do liadri the concealing dark with no armor and 4 gambits here. These bosses are easy as pie, just observe and take a look at the mechanics. They give you enough time to do so (if you can dodge a bit what you should at lvl 80 by default). I for one am sick of the stack and auto attacking that this game was reduced to for far too long and i welcome the attempt to make bosses that atleast fight back. Learn to play your class, avoid the very obvios red and orange cyrcles and watch the bosses movements, if a new element is introduced in the fight try how it works and what it does (like that fire in the last LS fight) and adapt to the enemie and the fight and dont expect the enemie to adapt to you. The enemies job is to kill you and not to cuddle you or give you an easy time (well..still easy but you get the point). Its your enemie and it wants to see you dead…DEAD. Man up and try again till you get how it works. Learn to play your class and\or adapt the build to the enemie if its not working. Use food and wetstones, change your weapon set, change your armor to something more tanky if needed. Read the enemie descriptions and buffs if available. Cant figure out how the mechanic works? Get a guide vid on youtube or go to dulfy and read up how it works. Ask people to join your group and do it as team. So many ways to fix that issue, just gotta do it

Basaltface.2786:

Krestfallen sums up what i was about to type. Really guys.. l2p, its really not that hard. Isnt like somebody would expect you to do liadri the concealing dark with no armor and 4 gambits here. These bosses are easy as pie, just observe and take a look at the mechanics. They give you enough time to do so (if you can dodge a bit what you should at lvl 80 by default). I for one am sick of the stack and auto attacking that this game was reduced to for far too long and i welcome the attempt to make bosses that atleast fight back. Learn to play your class, avoid the very obvios red and orange cyrcles and watch the bosses movements, if a new element is introduced in the fight try how it works and what it does (like that fire in the last LS fight) and adapt to the enemie and the fight and dont expect the enemie to adapt to you. The enemies job is to kill you and not to cuddle you or give you an easy time (well..still easy but you get the point). Its your enemie and it wants to see you dead…DEAD. Man up and try again till you get how it works. Learn to play your class and\or adapt the build to the enemie if its not working. Use food and wetstones, change your weapon set, change your armor to something more tanky if needed. Read the enemie descriptions and buffs if available. Cant figure out how the mechanic works? Get a guide vid on youtube or go to dulfy and read up how it works. Ask people to join your group and do it as team. So many ways to fix that issue, just gotta do it

I must say, I refuse to man up. A gender change should not be required to play a game. :P

Ceridwen.6703:

Basaltface.2786:

Krestfallen sums up what i was about to type. Really guys.. l2p, its really not that hard. Isnt like somebody would expect you to do liadri the concealing dark with no armor and 4 gambits here. These bosses are easy as pie, just observe and take a look at the mechanics. They give you enough time to do so (if you can dodge a bit what you should at lvl 80 by default). I for one am sick of the stack and auto attacking that this game was reduced to for far too long and i welcome the attempt to make bosses that atleast fight back. Learn to play your class, avoid the very obvios red and orange cyrcles and watch the bosses movements, if a new element is introduced in the fight try how it works and what it does (like that fire in the last LS fight) and adapt to the enemie and the fight and dont expect the enemie to adapt to you. The enemies job is to kill you and not to cuddle you or give you an easy time (well..still easy but you get the point). Its your enemie and it wants to see you dead…DEAD. Man up and try again till you get how it works. Learn to play your class and\or adapt the build to the enemie if its not working. Use food and wetstones, change your weapon set, change your armor to something more tanky if needed. Read the enemie descriptions and buffs if available. Cant figure out how the mechanic works? Get a guide vid on youtube or go to dulfy and read up how it works. Ask people to join your group and do it as team. So many ways to fix that issue, just gotta do it

I must say, I refuse to man up. A gender change should not be required to play a game. :P

oh shush you XD you know exactly what i mean

Basaltface.2786:

Ceridwen.6703:

Basaltface.2786:

Krestfallen sums up what i was about to type. Really guys.. l2p, its really not that hard. Isnt like somebody would expect you to do liadri the concealing dark with no armor and 4 gambits here. These bosses are easy as pie, just observe and take a look at the mechanics. They give you enough time to do so (if you can dodge a bit what you should at lvl 80 by default). I for one am sick of the stack and auto attacking that this game was reduced to for far too long and i welcome the attempt to make bosses that atleast fight back. Learn to play your class, avoid the very obvios red and orange cyrcles and watch the bosses movements, if a new element is introduced in the fight try how it works and what it does (like that fire in the last LS fight) and adapt to the enemie and the fight and dont expect the enemie to adapt to you. The enemies job is to kill you and not to cuddle you or give you an easy time (well..still easy but you get the point). Its your enemie and it wants to see you dead…DEAD. Man up and try again till you get how it works. Learn to play your class and\or adapt the build to the enemie if its not working. Use food and wetstones, change your weapon set, change your armor to something more tanky if needed. Read the enemie descriptions and buffs if available. Cant figure out how the mechanic works? Get a guide vid on youtube or go to dulfy and read up how it works. Ask people to join your group and do it as team. So many ways to fix that issue, just gotta do it

I must say, I refuse to man up. A gender change should not be required to play a game. :P

oh shush you XD you know exactly what i mean

giggle I just couldn’t help it! It’ll get me in trouble one day, totally.

Ceridwen.6703:

Basaltface.2786:

Ceridwen.6703:

Basaltface.2786:

-snip-

I must say, I refuse to man up. A gender change should not be required to play a game. :P

oh shush you XD you know exactly what i mean

giggle I just couldn’t help it! It’ll get me in trouble one day, totally.

yea the rolled up newspaper is fierce and relentless and one day it will catch up to you

Dont really feel the LS story mode is really hard. The achievements yes, they’re deliciously hard but the story itself really isnt.

Is it the easiest content that was ever released in the game? Definitely not it is a step harder then the vanilla game but not so much as to be considered challenging in my opinion.

See there are different ways how content can be hard.

1. Mechanics
2. Requires good co-ordination and timing
3. Insufficient individual power

What they did here is introduce a bit of 1. Nothing complicated they’re really pretty simple mechanics and in most cases they’re introduced gradually. The Glint’s instance is a great example of that where each mechanic is explained and player has to master it before they’re faced with a boss that employees every single one. In case the shadow of the dragon fight there was really 2 simple mechanics that once you notice them and employ a strategy appropriately, beating the challenge becomes easy.

Personally I think sprinkling in a bit of 1 on these story instances is a good idea. Its really not beyond anyone’s ability to tackle them all you need to do is just observe whats going on around you. Things that seem out of place will tell you what you need to do.

Ohh look there is a shield on one of the circles.. thats new… ohh it protects from the dragon’s pushback.

There is a shadow’y creater.. ohh its puts out the fire must kill it before it gets there.

wierdly colour bonfire in the middle of the room.. stepping in it gives me a fire buff.

Once you know that all the encounter boils down too is killing the tendrils while staying out of their reach (every profession can do ranged combat), run around with the fire buff, look out of a shield go light it up. If a shadowy create spawns, kill it asap. Stay out of evil telegraphs. If you fail and are killed, continue were you left off. There is noting hard there really and personally I dont see how its better if you could simple auto attack your way to victory. It has to be a balance. Not hard that players cannot complete it solo in a small amount of time but not easy that you can essentially finish the whole thing afk.

Seems to me with season 2 they did strike that balance. We also got really hard stuff in the form of optional achievement. In this regard I am actually really happy with how season 2 evolved.

Not hard enough imo. O_o

Never really felt the struggle if there was meant to be one.

Keep in mind that LS is basically end-game. It is supposed to require knowledge and skill.

You can also do it in a group if you have a hard time solo.

I consider myself an quite good player, for me the Story mode bosses/fights were a breeze. I would love if you could go for achievments on the first run, so I don’t have to repeat.

Anyway.

I actually think these bosses (in story) could even be a bit harder. Sorry if sounding harsh, but for “harder” open world events (like successful breach in SW) the average skill level for a player is just… awful. A lot of people do not dodge at lv80, have no idea about core boss mechanics, and refuse to change skills/traits (or listen to any advice).

If anything, these solo bosses should get you ready for more difficult encounters.

And as was said, you can just search for a party at any time, LFG tool is working quite well.

Bubi.7942:

I consider myself an quite good player, for me the Story mode bosses/fights were a breeze. I would love if you could go for achievments on the first run, so I don’t have to repeat.

Anyway.

I actually think these bosses (in story) could even be a bit harder. Sorry if sounding harsh, but for “harder” open world events (like successful breach in SW) the average skill level for a player is just… awful. A lot of people do not dodge at lv80, have no idea about core boss mechanics, and refuse to change skills/traits (or listen to any advice).

If anything, these solo bosses should get you ready for more difficult encounters.

And as was said, you can just search for a party at any time, LFG tool is working quite well.

I don’t see how, having a simpler version..with then increasing difficulty in replays would affect you.

I want to be able to enjoy this, too.

Sorry, I’m not as good a player as you….my point with this thread, is if this is the direction anet is going. I know I can’t keep up and it’s disappointing to me.
I picked up this game because of it’s ease.
_______
Also guys..do you really need to be telling me it “wasn’t hard enough” or you want “more of this”…That’s fine. My suggestion doesn’t prevent you having more of it ….what I am suggesting is have it easier than increase in difficulty with the challenge motes.
everybody wins.

heck add armour specific to the challenge achieves, then you can have your “respect”.

~sighs~

Up until now, I was able to play and ‘keep up’, just fine, but if the encounters are going to increase in difficulty like this. It’s just. I don’t see me sticking around. And that might not bother you, but I quite like this game…and I would like to experience the story without it being a struggle.

That’s what I’m asking,..I’m not sorry if that bothers you. The LS has increased in difficulty. and not everyone wants that. And it’s not wrong to want the story to be easier.

I probably won’t reply again…..I don’t need to feel worse because I can’t do it…and seems most people had no bother with it. fantastic for them.

To me, there’s too much going on in the fight and it’s not enjoyable.
(I wanted to find others who agree, that it wasn’t enjoyable…..that’s all, even if it’s the minority. )

Well, if you truly want to just see the story whitout any challange whatsoever you can always youtube it…

I wouldn’t mind supereasymode for players who desire such things, but there are 2 things to consider:
- less “awards” for supereasymode
- in open world, we’ll get put into the same map, if we want to do challanging content together, we must be on roughly the same skill level

Whew! Now that it’s not quarter to midnight, I wanted to come back and participate in a slightly less aggressive manner.

I think you’re looking at these bosses only as individual encounters. That is, you see the Shadow of the Dragon only as the end boss of Chapter Eight, rather than as the culmination of the entire series of Season Two bosses. Kind of like a final exam, if you will.

I don’t know how long you, in particular, have been around but back during the second half of Living Story Season 1, Arena Net attempted to add in more difficult/complex/challenging encounters. There were a few of these (the Teqautl rework, the Evolved/Triple Wurm, etc…), but the one I want to look at— and one that still gets talked about a lot in the LS forum— is the Twisted Marionette.

For those of you who weren’t there/aren’t familiar with the Marionette, it was set up in much the same way that Vinewrath currently is, only it was more challenging in a few critical ways:

1. There were five lanes instead of three
2. There were five different, unique champions instead of three
3. Rather than having the entire lane fight one boss, that lane’s zerg was split up (theoretically into groups of 4-5 each) across five different platforms and each platform had to fight a version of that lane’s boss on its own.
4. The different platforms were (essentially) completely unable to assist each other in any way shape or form
5. If even one platform failed to kill their boss within the two minute time limit the entire lane failed that boss.

While people talk about the Marionette with quite a thick glaze of nostalgia, when the content was active everybody was kittened off.
“Hardcore,” or “more skillful” players were extremely upset that the whole event could (and was often) ruined by a handful of inexperienced or less skillful players (Oh the number of times we saw lanes kill 4/5 and then had to watch helplessly as the fifth platform floundered helplessly!) While players who were new to the fight, or “less skillful,” were upset because 1) they were getting screamed at for failing, 2) they weren’t getting a fair chance to learn the mechanics (the boss only came up once every two hours) and 3) having the success/failure of a 100-125 player zerg placed on the shoulders of 4-5 people was entirely too much pressure for them.

Part of the reason the Marionette was so extreme is because it was one of the first times that Anet gave us more than “stack and auto” mechanics: bosses that could only be attacked from certain angles, bosses that had to be dragged into their own attacks before you could hurt them, bosses that spewed out AoEs in crazy patterns (I’m also pretty sure this is when Arena Net began using those orange telegraph circles— thank goodness); it was a huge turning point for the type of content we were seeing in Guild Wars 2.

At the time, Arena Net’s response to the outcry on the forums (and other places) could be paraphrased as: “We need to figure out better ways to teach our players better mechanics.”

I believe strongly that the content we’re seeing in Living Story Season Two is exactly that.

The Hidden Arcana mission is a good microcosm of the type of design philosophy I’m getting at: there are four bosses inside of Glint’s Lair: the Facet of Strength teaches you the moveset used by all the facets, the Facet of Light teaches you to how to use color attunement to protect yourself from its environmental effects, the Facet of Darkness teaches you that you can’t attack the boss directly, but instead have to use environmental tools/objects to damage it instead, and finally the Malevolent Memory makes use of all of these mechanics you’ve learned simultaneously.
You can see a clear step by step progression of lesser bosses leading up to one more complicated boss, but by the time you get to that complicated boss, you’ve basically seen everything it can do.

That’s just one mission, but if you go back and look at all the bosses from the eight Season Two chapters, I posit that the entire storyline is doing the same thing as Hidden Arcana, but on a larger scale:

• There’s Aerin who basically spends three whole fights doing nothing but spamming giant orange telegraphs (“dodge now!!!”).
• The Mordrem Thrasher in Fort Salma who has an invulnerability shield that can only be broken by protecting/escorting giant bone minions (“is there anything in my environment I can use to help me win this fight?”—plus Kasmeer throws out feedback fields if you need them, just another aspect of the environment that can be used to your advantage once observed).
• The first Shadow of the Dragon fight that teaches you both that fights have distinct phases that can be triggered (killing all the tentacles to enter a “burn phase”) and that some telegraphs are arena wide, meaning good placement (standing outside the orange circle) isn’t going to be enough, you have to know when to dodge.
• Or the Winged Mordrem Terragriff which is a direct juxtaposition to the previous Shadow of the Dragon: he cycles through his phases wether you’re ready or not (you want to hit him? Too bad, he’s flying now. He’s stunned in the corner but you’re about to die and need to heal? Too bad, you just missed your burn phase.)

I could keep going, but this post is already dragging on. My main point is that if you took the Mystery Cave’s Shadow of the Dragon on it’s own— if it came randomly from out of left field— I would agree with you that it’s too difficult. But when you take the story as a whole, it’s clear that Arena Net is teaching (or trying to teach) their player’s how to beat, not just these specific bosses, but rather the very techniques needed to win any boss fight they might throw at you (patience, observation, trial and error, etc…).

And yes, these lessons, these “teachable moments” have to be done in the story instances because the Zerg is absolutely, 100% not the place to learn how to learn fights. I don’t know if you were there on the days when Silverwastes and/or Vinewrath dropped, but there’s gap between 1) those who learn mechanics quickly, 2) those who can learn mechanics if they’re explained, 3) those who just simply have to experience it for themselves first, and 4) those who have to do it over and over and over and over before they get a feel for it, and that gap is huuuuuge.
Even now there are player’s leaping into a Breach or lining up to fight Vinewrath for the first time, and the amount of frustration and vitriol that gets spewed into map chat anytime anything goes even slightly wrong makes for a terrible learning environment.

Compare that to a story instance that you can 1) do at your own pace, 2) try as many times as you like, 3) no one is going to yell at you, 4) you can “pause” (not run into the boss room) and read a guide midway through if you need, or 5) bring a friend to explain things and/or show you how things are done. That’s a learning environment.

TL/DR (I hate these, but in all fairness those were long posts): I strongly believe that Arena Net is using their Story Instances (low pressure environments) to teach players the skills they need to fight challenging bosses before they then go out into the open world and fight upscaled/more challenging bosses with the zerg (high pressure environments).

Edited to add: And just to reiterate a point made by other posters, the Story Instances aren’t just about the Story Instances. When designing Open World, Map Wide content, the developer’s need a baseline skill level to design around. In just about every MMO in the history of MMOs that skill level trends upwards over time (I know, I know, to every rule there is an exception; no need to go and cherry pick a list of obscure MMOs that break that trend). To leave the skill floor/cieling exactly where it is the literal definition of stagnation.

I don’t think anyone really meant to come at you too harshly, and again I apologize for profusely last night’s “Kranky Krestfallen,” but what we’re talking about is essentially one of the “core pillars” that will determine how long the game will survive. Content has to become more complex, or “challenging,” over time and the developers need a tool to teach players the skills they’ll be expected to know in the future.

I am, however, genuinely sorry that the Living Story was spoiled for you. If you ever feel like looking me up in game, I actually, genuinely adore that last fight and would be more than happy to team up with you— if you’re still interested in getting it done.

I just started and finished all of the ls2 achievements solo (except the timed one for hidden arcana, also omg thanks dulfy and crew) over the past weekend. Im not saying that to sound show-offy, but these boss mechanics and rotatations, or the achiemvements themselves if you will, are now all very fresh in my head and I would be more than happy to help you with the dragon or any other part if the LS. Or anyone having issues. Just shoot me a whisper anytime

Edit: All the stuff Krestfallen posted above me here, 100% agree! Also the part about nostalgia and missing the marionette, what an awesome boss!

I go down a lot in LS instances with my thief – but I suspect the main problem is the design of the Thief class moreso than the design of the bosses and instances.

Krestfallen.8025:

TL/DR (I hate these, but in all fairness those were long posts): I strongly believe that Arena Net is using their Story Instances (low pressure environments) to teach players the skills they need to fight challenging bosses before they then go out into the open world and fight upscaled/more challenging bosses with the zerg (high pressure environments).

Edited to add: And just to reiterate a point made by other posters, the Story Instances aren’t just about the Story Instances. When designing Open World, Map Wide content, the developer’s need a baseline skill level to design around. In just about every MMO in the history of MMOs that skill level trends upwards over time (I know, I know, to every rule there is an exception; no need to go and cherry pick a list of obscure MMOs that break that trend). To leave the skill floor/cieling exactly where it is the literal definition of stagnation.

I don’t think anyone really meant to come at you too harshly, and again I apologize for profusely last night’s “Kranky Krestfallen,” but what we’re talking about is essentially one of the “core pillars” that will determine how long the game will survive. Content has to become more complex, or “challenging,” over time and the developers need a tool to teach players the skills they’ll be expected to know in the future.

I am, however, genuinely sorry that the Living Story was spoiled for you. If you ever feel like looking me up in game, I actually, genuinely adore that last fight and would be more than happy to team up with you— if you’re still interested in getting it done.

The ironic thing is, that these are skills every player should be able to harness at this point in the game.

If we go by story, players should have experienced the PS up to Zaithan.
Maybe went through story dungeons and the fractals at least once.

If you did that and not succumbed to cheap stacking tactics, then you should be able to read the enviroment and be able to dodge everything they might throw at you.

By that the game and bosses are not that difficult for the story modes. None of them is a one hit killer.
At the final boss I was thrown around like a rag doll several times and could still heal up.
However after a few times kissing the ground I ended up reading the enemy.
There are several safe zones where you can pass through, etc.

Here is my question though. What is different from these bosses than the ones we had before in GW2?
They are mostly designed to not have a place to just stand and be safe. You have to keep moving. This is something they wanted from the start.
by any means we are just finaly getting to the point, where the gam resembles the one, we are promised to get.

I personaly like it and hope to tackle the archievments at one point.
However so far I am playing for the story and by all means I find normal trash mobs harder than the predictable scripted bossfights (I am no berserker, I don`t know high damage )

People want it like this: give us easy content in which the reward will be easy to get it too. Make hard content avaialable only for those who want to enjoy it.

1. If Anet makes the base content hard = OMG, it is too hard, I can’t play.
2. If Anet makes some hard content for the achievments in which you get exclusive rewards: OMG, Anet is forcing me to play a specific kind of content. Make the rewards available through other means. Give me options (as in, give me an easy way to get the rewards more or less).
3. If Anet makes easy content: OMG, there isn’t much content, GW2 has no content.
4. If Anet makes easy content repeatable: OMG, GW2 is grindy, I will leave.
5. What do you want? asks Anet. The players: we want challenging content that is not grindy, not hard, not repeatable and that gives us options. We should also get the rewards without the need to make effort but hey… don’t make it boring.

I’m not quite sure if you’re agreeing with me or not… BUT I agree with you!

Jaken.6801:

The ironic thing is, that these are skills every player should be able to harness at this point in the game.
If we go by story, players should have experienced the PS up to Zaithan.
Maybe went through story dungeons and the fractals at least once.

This was precisley my point when I brought up the Marionette.
When Arena Net designed and released that content they expected us (as a playerbase) to have an understanding/mastery of certain fundamental skillsets (skillsets core to the game’s mechanics). The Marionette (and to a lesser extent the Watchwork Assault Knights from Assault on the Breachmaker) revealed— much to their surprise— that we (as a player base) very much did not posses said mastery.

Jaken.6801:

Here is my question though. What is different from these bosses than the ones we had before in GW2?
They are mostly designed to not have a place to just stand and be safe. You have to keep moving.

While you’ve pretty much hit the nail on the head here, one other thing that has changed is Anet’s way of communicating telegraphs. Early on in the game Arena Net primarily relied on character models to announce incoming attacks. Take something like Lupicus; yes there are red circles, but by the time they’ve appeared you’re basically already eating the attack. You very much (very much) have to watch his/her/its body language to be able to predict what’s coming next.
An easier to access example would be the Ettins in Queensdale. Their attacks are telegraphed by a slowly raised club (or foot) surrounded by yellowish sparkles.

Compare that to more recently designed bosses, and you can readily see that Arena Net has become much more liberal with those bright, orange, circular telegraphs that I mentioned earlier.

This represents an important shift in design for two reasons: 1) It alleviates some of the detrimental “particle effect clutter” that tends to, well let’s be honest, overwhelm character models in mid to large scale events. And 2) In general it gives player’s a slightly longer window in which to react: Orange Circle = “I’m in the danger zone and need to move before I get hurt!” Red Circle = “Ouch, I’m taking damage right now and need to move immediately!!”

I hasten to point out that not every single boss, boss rotation, or boss attack follows this design scheme, but it is an important shift in design and thus worth noting.

It also emphasises why having “challenging bosses” in solo instances is such an important learning experience: mis timing or misunderstanding a tell against The Shadow of the Dragon isn’t really a big deal. Even my Assassin’s mesmer was able to face tank several of his attacks, but misjudging the area of, say, the Iron Troll’s insect swarms during a Breach has even my Knight’s (6pt Honor) Guardian scrambling to recover— and not always succesfully xD

Taygus.4571:

anyway,,,what I am wondering, is not whether people like the encounter or didn’t find it challenging, I’m wondering if there others who felt it’s too hard…that anet has starting to push to offering “challenging” encounters for those asking for it, but isn’t thinking about those who haven’t.

Well, I would call it annoying more than anything else, and not much fun. And though I am looking forward to an expansion, I do have second thoughts about it, if this is Anets way of “moar challenges”.
I have my hours of playing gw2, I have soloed through LS with different classes in zerker gear. I’ve had some struggles but mostly its been pretty straight forward, very rarely fun, but very often felt like a waste of time. Wich maybe just is another way to say the story isnt good enough to bother with the hassle for me.
Ive been more excited about reaching the end of some of the JP’s than several of the LS boss fights.
Maybe the “hard” part is because you really dont want to play this way? I know myself it certainly doesnt help to feel like that, in RL as in games, nothing is easy when you start to hate.

Krestfallen.8025:

I’m not quite sure if you’re agreeing with me or not… BUT I agree with you!

Jaken.6801:

The ironic thing is, that these are skills every player should be able to harness at this point in the game.
If we go by story, players should have experienced the PS up to Zaithan.
Maybe went through story dungeons and the fractals at least once.

This was precisley my point when I brought up the Marionette.
When Arena Net designed and released that content they expected us (as a playerbase) to have an understanding/mastery of certain fundamental skillsets (skillsets core to the game’s mechanics). The Marionette (and to a lesser extent the Watchwork Assault Knights from Assault on the Breachmaker) revealed— much to their surprise— that we (as a player base) very much did not posses said mastery.

Don’t remind me about this time. Marionette was a good fight, but what I’ve seen with the average Skill of the Players was terrifying. Everytime there were players telling other what to do, which got ignored. I was asking myself what was wrong there. The Champion Mechanics were simple and easy but seeing Champ 2 failing and failing and failing was depressing. It’s like watching the Carriers getting thrashed now because now one is stealthing or healing them….
But one year ago, at the Marionette Time, Anet dropped a ball and told us that there was a certain percentage of Players who didn’t even know that Traits exist. THAT was shocking.

I get the same feeling when I tag up for Teq runs and watch hordes of ppl die then lie around waiting for a res. When they get told to WP back, they get all abusive. There was one guy who got defeated in my zerg and when ppl went to res him just as battery defense phase kicked in, I told them to leave him there and get to the battery. Fortunately, the players obeyed, left his body and ran with me to the battery. We were short handed as it was. Out of that, I got a rather abusive whisper which I didn’t bother to respond to.

The same happened in marionette, though that was well before I picked up my tag. People would just be lying there even though the WP was even closer to the fight zones than in Teq.

The same problem still exists in Vinewrath. People still standing on the safe spots for Copper and then wondering why he’s “healing” when in reality it’s because he’s resetting because all the nubs are on the safe spot and no one is holding the aggro.

Personally I found the dragon fight very fun. You just have to watch the mechanics of the fight. If your main point of the thread was to find out if people feel the same as you.. I obviously don’t.
However, you aren’t alone in thinking it is too hard. There are a lot of people who have had trouble just like you, so don’t feel bad about that. You would’ve found many topics on people having problems if you had skimmed the forums.

I will admit I did die on my first run-through of the fight.
But… heres a video of me doing it on my thief with no armor and no traits. Sorry the quality is low.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojW3MlxRUBs

Harder = better. This boss was pretty easy

While I don’t want to derail this into a “hardcore vs newbie” thread, I can’t help but share my own Vinewrath horror story (it’ll get back on point in the end, I promise):

As I alluded to earlier, I was online when Point of No Return dropped, so my friends and I were fighting Vinewrath before all the mechanics had been sussed out. We were trying to figure out how to get the “Covered in Bees” acievement.

Well, we figured it out, but not quite quick enough to block the first laser beam (only got the honey comb to 75%). At this point we’re halfway through the fight and someone shout out “How do you use the honeycombs?” In map chat.
I reply in a whisper “I’ll tell you once this fight is over,” because my friend and I are busy building up the honey comb in preperation for the second laser. The two of us get it up by ourselves, a bunch of people crowd around it, and we get the achievement. Great stuff right?

But then I get a reply to my earlier whisper saying “Thanks but I got the achievement!”
I was totally floored. Seriously, I was like (in my head) “Yeah you got the achievement, but you don’t know how the fight works!”

I know it seems silly to fret over the Beekeeper of all things, but despite the fact that South always seems to be overflowing with people and that he/she/it is easy as walking and chewing gum at the same time, I’ve seen that lane fail multiple times, with people from the lane reporting in map chat that “no one was building honeycombs” (I usually go either northlane cause it’s short on people, or midlane if I’m on a class with reflects).

And that’s (part) of the reason I genuinely believe these— let’s stop calling them hard and start calling them… maybe intermediary?— bosses need to be somewhere players are likely to 1) solo and 2) basically have to go through (like story instances):
For better or worse, rewards are a player’s incentive for learning mechanics (achievements, story completion, etc.. etc…). But if they can get those rewards other ways— like the player above who essentially got carried for his/her achievement— then suddenly players don’t bother to learn them.

And of course, if players never bother to acquire more advanced skills and techniques then we end up with either a) events that are constantly failing and upsetting everyone, or b) a game where the developers have to make everything so easy that all the content is essentially pointless— or at least dull as dirt.

Taygus.4571:

the chapt 8, dragon boss, I can not beat.

Why not?

That is the problem with these types of threads. For some of us, the encounter was nothing more than running around in circles lighting fires and avoiding AoEs – not very challenging. If you don’t explain why you find it challenging, I can only assume you’re not bothering to try. What are you failing at?

Here’s a video: http://youtu.be/GYpHSeJct9k. Learn the pattern. Since everything can be predicted, you really don’t even need to have a good reaction time. Point out what you’re having trouble with.

The entire encounter follows a rather simple pattern. The dragon will always do certain attacks in a specific order. For example, after doing its double claw attack, it will always drop rocks. If it attacks from under the ground, it will always follow with either the double claw attack or rocks. Knowing this pattern, use it to your advantage to light the fires without any trouble.

Keep in mind that GW2 is a game that is skill based rather than gear based. If you haven’t noticed, the difficulty of the game has been increasing with every major release. You should assume this is the entry level into the expansion, though zerging will likely be an option.

Krestfallen.8025:

“Yeah you got the achievement, but you don’t know how the fight works!”

This has been a problem throughout most of the game due to how zerging works. Most people don’t bother to actually learn what they’re doing, as shown by Copper and Platinum in Silverwastes. “Don’t CC!” I assume people are still spreading false information?

While I do think the LS chapter last boss is pretty hard, or just too long in the case of Aerin, I don’t think any of them are too hard. They definitely are different from the personal story, as well as much of the open world content. Each one requires more than just classic hit-it-until-it-dies strategy. It isn’t entirely a puzzle game, but you do need to think a little about it. Plus, if you ever need help, it never hurts to ask on the forum or maybe your guildmates.

JoeytheHutt.1742:

Maybe the “hard” part is because you really dont want to play this way? I know myself it certainly doesnt help to feel like that, in RL as in games, nothing is easy when you start to hate.

That’s some of it, I suppose…I’m not keen to practice it, because I don’t enjoy it.
I was happy to try the grove boss over and over for achieves (which I have yet to be able to get. ) but really not interested in this boss.

Healix.5819:

Taygus.4571:

the chapt 8, dragon boss, I can not beat.

Why not?

I suppose it comes down to more physical issues than anything.

It’s also somewhat long. I can’t pause it to take a break.. or stop between changes.

Which in solo games, for example bosses like the teragriff, I would pause between it’s change in mechanics.
I can’t do that in an mmo, which is fine, but I would like it greatly if these bosses were a bit shorter..or if they “ran away”, so that you had to chase them (giving you the option to pause before the next ‘level’ of the boss. )

Again, I know that’s my issue.
idk, guess I have to accept to continue to be able to play he game, I can’t solo these things anymore. meh.

Taygus.4571:

JoeytheHutt.1742:

Maybe the “hard” part is because you really dont want to play this way? I know myself it certainly doesnt help to feel like that, in RL as in games, nothing is easy when you start to hate.

That’s some of it, I suppose…I’m not keen to practice it, because I don’t enjoy it.
I was happy to try the grove boss over and over for achieves (which I have yet to be able to get. ) but really not interested in this boss.

Healix.5819:

Taygus.4571:

the chapt 8, dragon boss, I can not beat.

Why not?

I suppose it comes down to more physical issues than anything.

It’s also somewhat long. I can’t pause it to take a break.. or stop between changes.

Which in solo games, for example bosses like the teragriff, I would pause between it’s change in mechanics.
I can’t do that in an mmo, which is fine, but I would like it greatly if these bosses were a bit shorter..or if they “ran away”, so that you had to chase them (giving you the option to pause before the next ‘level’ of the boss. )

Again, I know that’s my issue.
idk, guess I have to accept to continue to be able to play he game, I can’t solo these things anymore. meh.

Are you killing the shadows that quench the fires in phase 2? My first time through took forever until I noticed those, and even still I think I completed it while just trying to go super fast and beat them to the fire until I realized I could kill them. Now I can do the fight in minutes. Otherwise just seems strange you didnt have much trouble wuth the grove version but do now. And remember a lot of people here have offered to help you, you are being a bit too kitten yourself imo and can do this, even if you need some help!

yeah ..it just took me ages to light the fires, due to choosing the wrong time to start or too late to start. I think if lighting the fire was just a small bit quicker, it would’ve been easier for me.

Also getting the divine fire in time, or having to wait for it to show up was a p.i.t.a.
I lag too, so sometimes even if I crossed the blossom bombs directly in the middle of the connecting vines..I’d still get blown to the side, as if I touched the blossoms.

__
I had alot of trouble with the grove version, as I said, I still haven’t got the achieves.

__
I didn’t refuse help, I appreciate it even. as I said in my last post, I accepted that I would need help. and have beaten the dragon now

Like I said before, I’m mostly frustrated in the direction anet is going. I can, not enjoy these fights, just as you can enjoy them.

I found it hard for all the wrong reasons, and still getting killed after doing it 10+ times (achieve runs)

-Being hit OUTSIDE the orange circles
-Being hit THROUGH evade
-Being hit and interrupted divine flame DESPITE STABILITY, the stability buff literally fails at it’s only purpose
-Being chain knock downed by a combined mess of the dragon head, rocks and flowers, and can’t escape because of stability being wasted attempting to light fires
-Taking unnecessarily long to light fires since killing shades consumes the fire buff
-Where the hell are Rox, Braham and co?

Underwhelming for a last boss of LS before an xpack, fight a huge-forest-dragon-mordrem-lieutenant and it spend half a fight underground and the rest perched on the rim of a tiny tiny arena INSIDE A MASSIVE BEAUTIFUL CAVERN. Granted this may be since theyre focusing on the xpack over this which is fair enough i guess..

So much more potential for this boss, remove the silly arena, let us explore the huge beautiful cavernous space and give the boss less red zone moves, its not immersive in the slightest when i have to run out of coloured rings the whole fight without even getting the chance to look at the boss.

Let it walk around, stalk the player, roar for christ sake its an angry dragon seeking vengeance, let us burn its limbs with the divine fire to slowly disable it, let the npcs distract it so you can get opportunities for massive damage, give the fight progressive phases (disable limbs with fire as a trigger) not a recycled part 1 and part 2 as it is now.

4/10 wouldn’t fight again.

I found the boss very easy. Albeit a kittenallenging, but easy.

There are people who are bad at challenging content, and those who are good and asks for more harder content. The LS was a kittenallenging to go through, but was quite easy. Some achievements however required lots of coordination and quick thinking. That’s not for everybody, that’s understandable, but don’t go nerfing every encounters like Shadow Behemoth because that’s freaking boring. I want more encounters like the boss in Episode 7, the bosses in Hidden Arcana, etc. Those are fun and can be quite challenging (though I found them quite easy). I like interesting mechanics, not HP tanks that takes 1 hour to kill but do almost no damage.

Took me 2 tries to get all achievements of last boss with a friend. I wouldn’t consider this hard. You just need to know your class well, have a good skills setup and be quick on your fingers.

If you find it challenging in “story mode”, you didn’t see the boss of Episode 7 with the Challenge Mote… god 5 sand walls at the same time… Insane I tell you. But god was that satisfactory when I completed it after more than 1 hour of dying over and over! I like hard challenges!

8/10 Would fight again.

larocca.8391:

I found it hard for all the wrong reasons, and still getting killed after doing it 10+ times (achieve runs)

-Being hit OUTSIDE the orange circles

I admit I had this happen to me a couple times as well, but not nearly frequently enough that it prevented me from beating the fight/getting the achievements (solo, for the record).
As someone else mentioned above, and as I’m sure you yourself learned over the course of your fight, the key is to 1) have some sort of speed boost (25% signets/traits are enough for the classes lucky enough to have them) and to 2) keep moving. The dragon attacks slowly enough that simply running will have you well away from him before the attacks land. Even with the sometimes wonky telegraph areas.

larocca.8391:

-Being hit THROUGH evade

The explosions from the plant bombs are completely unavoidable. You cannot dodge through them, you cannot block them, you cannot invulnerability through them, you cannot stability through them. You need to know (through seeing it and probably getting hit a couple times) their exact radius, and either destroy them by running (carefully) through their tripwire, or by staying well away from their blast radius when they detonate by timing out.

larocca.8391:

-Being hit and interrupted divine flame DESPITE STABILITY, the stability buff literally fails at it’s only purpose

The only Dragon attack that ignores stability is the “head pops up from under the ground attack.” You can tell when this one is coming because the radius of the telegraph is noticeably smaller than his “Double Claw” attack. If you see this attack coming, simply dodge backwards out of it, then go back and resume channeling the fire (it’s better to break channel and avoid an attack rather than eating an attack that’s going to interrupt your channel anyway).

larocca.8391:

-Being chain knock downed by a combined mess of the dragon head, rocks and flowers, and can’t escape because of stability being wasted attempting to light fires

While I admit that there were times that I was sure Braham had been programmed to troll me, if you stand in the bubbles he produces, he will give you permanent stability. If you take the time to line yourself up with him there will be no need to use your own stability to light the fires if you don’t want to.
Also, even when I’m not after the achievement generally the first thing I do during the “light the circle” phase is do a lap around the arena (carefully) blowing up all the flower bombs. This greatly cuts down on the amount of things you have to worry about/can interrupt you during this phase. Repeat as they spawn for best results.

larocca.8391:

-Taking unnecessarily long to light fires since killing shades consumes the fire buff

The Divine Fire doesn’t disappear off the ground when you “pick it up” (get the buff). The best way to deal with the Smothering Shades is to go inside the Divine Fire’s blue aura and stay there, then use a ranged attack to kill the Shade. The Shade will die and then you will immediately get the Divine Fire buff again, freeing you to light the flames unimpeded.

*Please, please note that this is not a criticism or attack against you personally, fellow poster, but rather is intended as advice for other players who are having issues similar to yours.