Guild Wars 2

I hate that I cant convey tone across text very well so I hope this comes across as the legitimate question it is: is Marjory and Kasmeer’s relationship supposed to be a healthy one or a dysfunctional one? Because I get the impression its intended to be a healthy, loving relationship but honestly its far from it. Any marriage or dating relationship that handles arguments the way these two do ends with separation.

Kasmeer is correct to call out the selfishness of Marjory’s decisionmaking and Marjory responds by offering excuses instead of giving any indication that she was listening to, or even cared about, how her decisions impacted her other half. Marjory is a consistently selfish character and relationship studies show over, and over, and over that if a person responds like Marjory does to arguments then the relationship ends because eventually the other person gets sick of being an emotional battery instead of an equal in the relationship.

I’m not trying to bash the writing or the characters. Relationships are messy and people are imperfect. But the consistency of their quarrels and how they finish them leaves little room for any other conclusion. If this is going to be the only romantically comitted relationship in the game I ask that you please make it a healthy one.. Or if you read this and thought “what is he talking about? Their relationship is fine.” then I ask you to read some books on healthy relationships or ask a couple thats been married for over 30 years how they handle disagreements because this isnt it.

Too much emphasis is put on their relationship, rather than the story at hand. It takes up valuable minutes in the short stories we do actually get, listening to these two constantly talk about themselves.

You’re trying to save the world, people are dying because of your orders— and these two associates of yours are endangering the mission because of their relationship. They both need to be booted out of the team and sent home.

The guild drama…

I don’t see it as unhealthy from your example. I see it as both parties expressing their viewpoints in a positive way. Kas feels she was sidelined, and raises her concerns calmly. Jory rationally counters with the fact that she (Kas) has a point, but this was an exceptionally unique case (leaving with Laz without conferring with Kas first). Both are correct. Jory wasn’t just dismissing Kas at all, she was just showing the other side of the coin.

Now the other problem is that since they both have limited screen time, and their relationship is a big part of their character arcs, that means the relationship stuff always happens in the thick of things. The effect of this for the players is to leave us with an impression of an unhealthy relationship. Anyone more focused on domestic disputes than these crazy world changing events going on in their immediate vicinity will come across as having unhealthy priorities. I don’t believe that is the intention, but it certainly is the result at times.

I see it as unhealthy as well. As a lesbian, I am getting a bad aftertaste over the way the two talk to one another, because it is so cliché, much like in many novels, television shows and movies. First we got the exaggerated sweet talk, to an extent that made me cringe, now the two are behaving like they don’t have much left to say to one another.

Then again, most relationships in Guild Wars where there is love involved (be it one-sided or mutual) seem to end in sadness or big drama (even back in GW1, see Rurik and Lady Althea, for instance), so I wouldn’t be surprised if those two split up as well or one of them died. Which would make me very sad, because I would love to see the portrayal of a healthy, lasting, drama-free relationship for a change.

Moonyeti.3296:

Now the other problem is that since they both have limited screen time, and their relationship is a big part of their character arcs, that means the relationship stuff always happens in the thick of things. The effect of this for the players is to leave us with an impression of an unhealthy relationship. Anyone more focused on domestic disputes than these crazy world changing events going on in their immediate vicinity will come across as having unhealthy priorities.

I think that hits the nail on the end — especially combined with the dismissive, uncaring or flat-out hostile attitudes that most of the NPCs have been displaying towards us the whole season. (Or since HoT if you’re playing sylvari, thanks “friends”.) I’m seriously sick of the “biconics” because of all the in-your-face drama that I’m supposed to care about while none of them show any signs of caring for my character in any way. It’s all so bloody one-sided.

As for whether it’s (supposed to be) “healthy” or not, I have no idea. It’s not remotely as revolting as Caithe and Faolain, or Jenna and Logan, but those are laughably low bars to clear. Marjory has always stuck me as a selfish gasbag, though, and Kasmeer as a wimpy follower-type, so if Kas is trying to assert herself more now it’s no surprise there’s going to be trouble. Unfortunately, any wrongdoing on Marjory’s part is probably going to be handwaved away due to Kasmeer doing something worse i.e. breaking down and running way after the “Lazarus” reveal. That’s going to be fodder for a lot MORE in-your-face drama-llamaing that we’ll have to sit through.

How much time has it passed since they’ve been dating? They’re already bickering like an old married couple. I hated it all the way back in Dry Top, when you had to do story instances while listening them bang on and on about their relationship, and the Commander’s like, could we maybe focus on this mission here? I don’t really care about your personal stuff.

I’m just another of those who bothered by too much emphasis on this pair that they don’t give a flying kitten about, but I just see it as a rocky patch being exaggerated so they can dramatically make up and shove their lovey dovey kitten down our throats again, even though one of them may end up dying in the process. I hope they will.

Is no one going to ask what it says about Kasmeer that instead of staying with her lover or going after the one who hurt her she chose to pull her tail between her legs and rip out her own spine and run away?

BlackDragon.2084:

Is no one going to ask what it says about Kasmeer that instead of staying with her lover or going after the one who hurt her she chose to pull her tail between her legs and rip out her own spine and run away?

It says that whichever writer (s) decided on her actions during this chapter apparently forgot about the finale of Season 1, where Kasmeer went after Scarlet with a vengeance after thinking she’d killed Marjory, and then went right back to Jory’s side until she turned to to survive.

Or maybe they just hoped everyone at this point forgot about it. Either way, it was a contrived and stupid way to remove her from the rest of the story, as much contrived as the “big reveal” of this chapter.

Nilkemia.8507:

BlackDragon.2084:

Is no one going to ask what it says about Kasmeer that instead of staying with her lover or going after the one who hurt her she chose to pull her tail between her legs and rip out her own spine and run away?

It says that whichever writer (s) decided on her actions during this chapter apparently forgot about the finale of Season 1, where Kasmeer went after Scarlet with a vengeance after thinking she’d killed Marjory, and then went right back to Jory’s side until she turned to to survive.

Or maybe they just hoped everyone at this point forgot about it. Either way, it was a contrived and stupid way to remove her from the rest of the story, as much contrived as the “big reveal” of this chapter.

Or maybe this is only the nature of this Humans in Guild Wars. Running away when their friends need them. I mean pulling a Logan would be no surprise to me. But what really makes me angry. She attacks the Commander for not inviting her. But then by the first sign of danger runs away. AND THE COMMANDER JUST TAKES IT! If we stay such a beta character I will give the future LW episodes the middle finger! I want my character to talk back to such kittened up behavior!

BlackDragon.2084:

Or maybe this is only the nature of this Humans in Guild Wars. Running away when their friends need them. I mean pulling a Logan would be no surprise to me. But what really makes me angry. She attacks the Commander for not inviting her. But then by the first sign of danger runs away. AND THE COMMANDER JUST TAKES IT! If we stay such a beta character I will give the future LW episodes the middle finger! I want my character to talk back to such kittened up behavior!

I’m pretty sure that was “affectionate teasing”, as in, “yo, I know you want me here, but I feel a little sad that you didn’t actually visit to ask me, hmmmm?”

It’s said in a way that fits well with the character — consider her behaviour around the interrogations at the party in LS2, that sort of thing. It’s the way she would gentle chide someone she likes, because they did something pretty minor but still a bit sad.

SlippyCheeze.5483:

BlackDragon.2084:

Or maybe this is only the nature of this Humans in Guild Wars. Running away when their friends need them. I mean pulling a Logan would be no surprise to me. But what really makes me angry. She attacks the Commander for not inviting her. But then by the first sign of danger runs away. AND THE COMMANDER JUST TAKES IT! If we stay such a beta character I will give the future LW episodes the middle finger! I want my character to talk back to such kittened up behavior!

I’m pretty sure that was “affectionate teasing”, as in, “yo, I know you want me here, but I feel a little sad that you didn’t actually visit to ask me, hmmmm?”

It’s said in a way that fits well with the character — consider her behaviour around the interrogations at the party in LS2, that sort of thing. It’s the way she would gentle chide someone she likes, because they did something pretty minor but still a bit sad.

Definitely this. It is made obvious by the commander’s reaction. Just a light hearted back and forth between two people that haven’t seen each other in awhile. Kind of like when people downplay important things for humor. “Long time no see! What have you been up to?” “Oh, not much, just keeping busy since I got back from the first manned Mars mission.”

They clearly were not even remotely upset with each other. I fear for basic human communication if that many people can’t understand this.

Atma.5198:

I’m not trying to bash the writing or the characters.

I would, but only because there’s additional evidence that there’s a presence on the writing staff that loves dysfunctional, tragic relationships:

Caithe and Faolain.

It’s not often that scenes on TV or in an MMO make me squirm, but that fragment of Season 2 made me question things, uncomfortably. It framed a horrible, abusive relationship as part of some superhero backstory, and I did not care for it one bit.

Personally I hope their relationship is not intended to be either a model example of a healthy couple or an extremely dysfunctional and abusive one where one or both partners are clearly in the wrong.

They’re people and I want to see them act like people – sometimes doing things right and sometimes doing them wrong, and sometimes doing things which are ambiguous and complicated in situations where there is no clear right or wrong. One-sided always perfectly good and right or always wrong and evil for the sake of being evil characters are not only bad writing but also pretty boring. Real people are much more interesting because they’re more complicated.

I also agree that part of the problem is we don’t see them much, and when we do it’s usually in the middle of a crisis of some description and that changes the tone of whatever they’re saying. I feel like the Living Story really needs something like Dragon Age Origin’s campfire scenes – downtime between the actual story instances where you can have in-depth conversations between characters in a more sensible setting where there’s time to discuss things properly. I think that would have helped here and with Braham. (Both in an out-of-universe sense by giving us more time to get to know the characters and hear what they’re up to now and in an in-universe sense because I think people would say things differently if they weren’t so tense about being under attack when the conversations happened. Especially with Braham – we could have explained things fully instead of constantly trying to shut him down because it wasn’t a good time for that conversation.)

Basically I don’t think we’re in a positon to judge – we don’t know all the details but we do know neither Kasmeer or Marjory is actually evil, they’re probably not out to intentionally hurt the other one, they’re just not always thinking clearly or saying things in the best possible way. It happens to everyone.

Rauderi.8706:

It’s not often that scenes on TV or in an MMO make me squirm, but that fragment of Season 2 made me question things, uncomfortably. It framed a horrible, abusive relationship as part of some superhero backstory, and I did not care for it one bit.

Tell me about it. More than anything else, it tanked my opinion of Caithe. In LS3, she’s actually among the few NPCs that I don’t want to throttle, and it’s refreshing to see an NPC actually trying to make up for (some) past wrongs to the point where as a mainly sylvari player I want to think of her as a friend again … but holy smokes, that episode.

And in the what, twenty years since she still hadn’t gotten over moping over Faolain.

I do wish there would be some positive relationships. Maybe Zojja could find a partner, have some progeny, and then for drama, she could wrestle with work/life issues and worry if her kids would be as cranky as Braham. Or, Taimi could be jealous and then get over it, since at least Taimi has been showing development and increasing maturity. :-)

Or maybe Braham could fall for someone, get all moony and be distracted from his Jormag obsession, and Rox could struggle with feeling left out or something, but Braham’s partner could be level-headed and awesome, eventually becoming good friends with Rox.

But, so the cast doesn’t get too big, communicate some of this through mail. :-)

There are already far too many NPCs and plot hooks that go nowhere, IMO, for them to shoehorn in even more. While I do agree that some positive relationships would be good, let them grow between the characters we have, as friendship and (found) family bonds, not some Obligatory Romance.

That way there would also be room for the actual protagonist i.e. us in the story, if they try to write the NPCs as building real friendships with us instead of making us at best a mute outsider to and at worst a punching bag for all the NPC angst and drama.

Chadramar.8156:

There are already far too many NPCs and plot hooks that go nowhere, IMO, for them to shoehorn in even more. While I do agree that some positive relationships would be good, let them grow between the characters we have, as friendship and (found) family bonds, not some Obligatory Romance.

That way there would also be room for the actual protagonist i.e. us in the story, if they try to write the NPCs as building real friendships with us instead of making us at best a mute outsider to and at worst a punching bag for all the NPC angst and drama.

The worst part is that as the story currently stands, the Commander seems to a character outside the main story. Everyone is supposed to look towards you for guidance, yet your own Guild Members completely overpower you— and their importance to the story is more than your own. If there was a picture of everyone in teh story atm, you would be the guy dressed in Gray standing in the shadow away from everyone else. Sure you’re there, but you’re overshadowed by the overly dressed (or barely dressed) other members of your ‘team’— which seems to love throwing YOU into harms way for their own agendas.

SlippyCheeze.5483:

BlackDragon.2084:

Or maybe this is only the nature of this Humans in Guild Wars. Running away when their friends need them. I mean pulling a Logan would be no surprise to me. But what really makes me angry. She attacks the Commander for not inviting her. But then by the first sign of danger runs away. AND THE COMMANDER JUST TAKES IT! If we stay such a beta character I will give the future LW episodes the middle finger! I want my character to talk back to such kittened up behavior!

I’m pretty sure that was “affectionate teasing”, as in, “yo, I know you want me here, but I feel a little sad that you didn’t actually visit to ask me, hmmmm?”

It’s said in a way that fits well with the character — consider her behaviour around the interrogations at the party in LS2, that sort of thing. It’s the way she would gentle chide someone she likes, because they did something pretty minor but still a bit sad.

Yeah sure. We just could find here were she was hiding with her Shining Blade thugs and “helping” with interrogating some “Nobles”. And we could just walk in this place like nothing else. Sure. But then running away the first sign of danger comes around. My ass teasing. It is clear there is something that is far more important to her then we, the guild or her “Lover”.

armaduras.8972:

The worst part is that as the story currently stands, the Commander seems to a character outside the main story.

Exactly. That is one thing that the vanilla storyline, despite some undeniably clunky writing and contrived moments, managed to do so much better. It was “my story” then as they advertised, and there were other characters who obviously came to care about me and expressed as much. Here, I’m barely present except in the parts with Aurene (whom we haven’t seen in two episodes now), and none of the new characters have ever had any actual friendship-building moments that I recall. The sole exception is Canach if you play HoT as a sylvari. Which is why moments like Kasmeer “joking” with the Commander fall so flat — they have no foundation and feel like just another salvo of “eff off” in the barrage of “eff offs” we’ve been getting from the NPCs. I have more positive feelings for tertiary old characters like Laranthir, Carys, Warmaster Efut, Galina and Snarl or the Gear warband than I have for the current crew.

By ditching the Pact like something gross that the cat dragged in and focusing on the “biconics” instead and especially on Taimi-ex-machina as pretty much the only source of information, contacts and resources, we went from being a planner, leader, decision-maker and information-gatherer to a glorified errand runner does as told and otherwise meekly stands by while the NPCs drama at each other. Hell, even among the NPCs themselves there’s no real group cohesion. It’s just Marjory and Kasmeer in one corner, Rox and Braham in another, and Taimi and her colossal ego in the third. Even Braham’s old “big brother” act has been dropped and turned into overbearing condescension.

If I could ask one thing of the writers, it’d be this: in any scene you create, ask yourself what the role of the player character is. Are they vital and active and personally invested? No? Then get back to the drawing board and change it so the supposed protagonist gets to be the protagonist!

I agree with the OP about the Jory/Kas relationship, which is problematic for a number of reasons, most of which can probably be explained by the fact that their entire onscreen time amounts to the equivalent of a couple of pages of script.

What I am surprised about in this thread, though, is the degree to which almost all commenters seem to feel the Player Character should be the central figure. I’m not interested in the slightest in having writers tell me or show me what my character thinks or feels – I can do all of that for myself. The further into the background my character fades the better I like it.

No, I want to watch and listen to the rest of the characters just as though I was watching a movie or reading a comic. My problem is with how difficult it is to see any of them as much more than sketches. They often look as though they could be interesting and then they turn out not to be.

Only Taimi and Rytlock seem to have developed over time. Marjory still seems like a character from a one-off parody, Kasmeer is a cypher, Braham is a cliche and Rox is an extra who somehow got a few lines. Zojja has the backstory and character development to take the narrative weight but for some inexplicable reason she seems to have been written out altogether. Logan…no, let’s stop there.

Tiny Doom.4380:

What I am surprised about in this thread, though, is the degree to which almost all commenters seem to feel the Player Character should be the central figure. I’m not interested in the slightest in having writers tell me or show me what my character thinks or feels

What’s the point in having a player character, especially one that we can customize over a preset one, if they’re completely worthless for the story, though? And in a proper roleplaying game, we’d have choices. The writers would create a rough framework, but also constantly give us a solid variety of options, influenced by culture, ideally sometimes also class, and personal history. And have the NPCs react to us accordingly.

No, I want to watch and listen to the rest of the characters just as though I was watching a movie or reading a comic.

Interesting. Gaming is the only interactive medium, that is its appeal for me. I only care about the NPCs, any NPCs in any game, in relation to my character(s). Oh, I’m perfectly fine with providing them with opportunities for characterization and development … but I expect the same in return, too. Writers forget that recicprocity far too often and just focus entirely on their pet NPCs, to the point that it feels like they, too, would much rather create comics or movies. (Hello Bioware, looking at you.)

I agree that they should not be killed off because they are lesbians. There are plenty of other reasons for it though.