Guild Wars 2

Well my first experience of FotM. Did first fractal ok apart from dying on the boss at the end but second one one player spent half an hour trying and failing to get past some gusts of wind. Eventually got past that then she lost the hammer or whatever we were supposed to have with us and rage quit. She apparently was the leader and kicked the whole group back to Lion’s Arch.

Time taken: 1 hour 15mins
Progress towards backpiece: Not a sausage

This is going to be painful…

Lasica.5068:

Well my first experience of FotM. Did first fractal ok apart from dying on the boss at the end but second one one player spent half an hour trying and failing to get past some gusts of wind. Eventually got past that then she lost the hammer or whatever we were supposed to have with us and rage quit. She apparently was the leader and kicked the whole group back to Lion’s Arch.

Time taken: 1 hour 15mins
Progress towards backpiece: Not a sausage

This is going to be painful…

How often do I have to repeat myself? Open a thread where you search for likeminded players. Seeing that there are multiple people in the same position as you I’m sure you can find 4 others which will allow you to get through there without ragequitting idiots.

Also, as a tip, you really don’t want to let the hammer fall down right now. Stability helps against getting blown down.

When I saw the Pristine Fractal Relic was required for the ascended vine back piece, I was incredibly distraught. Because of this one requirement the entire thing felt unobtainable.

I too had a terrible experience early on with Fractals, and constantly found myself having to deal with rude comments about both myself and fellow players that had the audacity to try and learn the mechanics of a Fractal during a respective dungeon run. Why didn’t we just use youtube? Why did the Fractal dungeon take 90 minutes rather than 20 minutes? Why did you bring a Necromancer? Noobs.

It was toxic and off putting.

But you know what happened? After I was bummed out about this requirement I returned to the Fractals of the Mist starting area and joined a casual group using the LFG tool. I met some nice people in there, and had a fun (and rather quick) run at the dungeon culminating in 1/5th of the necessary Pristine Relics for my sought after item.

I have also run several more fractals since then and am finding myself enjoying them enough that I would do them even after I have enough Pristine Relics for the vine.

For all those that are frustrated about this, I think there are a few things to remember:

1- Fractals has had its difficulty and reward structure revamped since a lot of us last played.

2- The LFG tool is very handy and a lot of talented dungeon players can be met in there.

3- You might sometimes have a bad experience, but more often than not you will meet good people online.

4- Ignore snarky comments and be sure to follow the lead of experienced players. You don’t really need someone shouting commands at you and you can figure out most of the mechanics by observing others in these Fractal dungeons.

5- Almost all players are in full exotic nowadays, and most are probably in a mix of Ascended/Exotic gear. When Fractals came out, a lot of players were using green and yellow gear and this made the dungeons particularly difficult.

I am not opposed to having other options for purchasing a Mist Stone— in fact I think it is a great idea to have WvW be a second avenue for this. However, I also feel that players should give Fractals a shot and be sure to run with at least a few fellow guild mates for the best possible outcome.

Almost everyone has bad first experiences with Fractals. That’s what happens when you jump into harder content and don’t know what you’re doing, especially when the pool of potential party members is also largely people who don’t know what they’re doing.

It takes a little time to get good at it, just like anything else. And communication helps a lot… many players are quiet when they aren’t familiar with something because they expect to get yelled at if they admit it, but if you don’t know the trick in a Fractal, it’s likely going to be bad for everyone to assume you do and proceed. It’s relatively easy for one person to drag everyone down in Fractals, so it’s much better to just let everyone know if you haven’t done something, and someone will probably explain it no problem.

Julius Seizure.4985:

When I saw the Pristine Fractal Relic was required for the ascended vine back piece, I was incredibly distraught. Because of this one requirement the entire thing felt unobtainable.

I too had a terrible experience early on with Fractals, and constantly found myself having to deal with rude comments about both myself and fellow players that had the audacity to try and learn the mechanics of a Fractal during a respective dungeon run. Why didn’t we just use youtube? Why did the Fractal dungeon take 90 minutes rather than 20 minutes? Why did you bring a Necromancer? Noobs.

It was toxic and off putting.

But you know what happened? After I was bummed out about this requirement I returned to the Fractals of the Mist starting area and joined a casual group using the LFG tool. I met some nice people in there, and had a fun (and rather quick) run at the dungeon culminating in 1/5th of the necessary Pristine Relics for my sought after item.

I have also run several more fractals since then and am finding myself enjoying them enough that I would do them even after I have enough Pristine Relics for the vine.

---

For all those that are frustrated about this, I think there are a few things to remember:

1- Fractals has had its difficulty and reward structure revamped since a lot of us last played.

2- The LFG tool is very handy and a lot of talented dungeon players can be met in there.

3- You might sometimes have a bad experience, but more often than not you will meet good people online.

4- Ignore snarky comments and be sure to follow the lead of experienced players. You don’t really need someone shouting commands at you and you can figure out most of the mechanics by observing others in these Fractal dungeons.

5- Almost all players are in full exotic nowadays, and most are probably in a mix of Ascended/Exotic gear. When Fractals came out, a lot of players were using green and yellow gear and this made the dungeons particularly difficult.

---

I am not opposed to having other options for purchasing a Mist Stone— in fact I think it is a great idea to have WvW be a second avenue for this. However, I also feel that players should give Fractals a shot and be sure to run with at least a few fellow guild mates for the best possible outcome.

Glad you had a better experience this time around. If you ever get to levels 40+, I’d love to run with you. Good luck with everything!

Sorry but this requirement just makes me want to delete the game off my hard drive. It’s kittening stupid idea to force people into content they don’t want to do for living world content.

After completing fractal 2 of the second attempt the leader “had to go” and I’m back in Lion’s Arch again with another hour wasted.

Fractals of the Mist was the reason I stopped playing GW2 initially, it’s an insanely painful experience.

Lasica.5068:

Sorry but this requirement just makes me want to delete the game off my hard drive. It’s kittening stupid idea to force people into content they don’t want to do for living world content.

Fractals of the Mist was the reason I stopped playing GW2 initially, it’s an insanely painful experience.

FRACTALS OF THE MISTS ARE LIVING WORLD CONTENT. Vexa’s Lab, the JP and whatever kind of stuff you had to do the upgrade the compenents aren’t.

Jesus christ, if you don’t like it, don’t do it, no one forces you.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

FRACTALS OF THE MISTS ARE LIVING WORLD CONTENT. Vexa’s Lab, the JP and whatever kind of stuff you had to do the upgrade the compenents aren’t.

Jesus christ, if you don’t like it, don’t do it, no one forces you.

They aren’t not living world content you kitten. They are for people who like grouped PvE. Living world should not be a requirement to do dungeons, or WvW, or PvP, or factals of the mist.

None of the last umpteen months of living world content requires this and now suddenly we are being forced into group PvE to do living world content.

Lasica.5068:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

FRACTALS OF THE MISTS ARE LIVING WORLD CONTENT. Vexa’s Lab, the JP and whatever kind of stuff you had to do the upgrade the compenents aren’t.

Jesus christ, if you don’t like it, don’t do it, no one forces you.

They aren’t not living world content you kitten. They are for people who like grouped PvE. Living world should not be a requirement to do dungeons, or WvW, or PvP, or factals of the mist.

None of the last umpteen months of living world content requires this and now suddenly we are being forced into group PvE to do living world content.

I like to think The Lost Shores and Fractured were very well Living World releases.
Hey, there were also the Molten Facility and the Aetherblade hideout which were quite difficult when doing them the first time, those were also grouped PvE-content for Living World and offered special rewards and achievements… huh.

I just can’t stand people QQing about things that are not worth QQing. Either you do those 5 runs and be done with it or you leave it be. Not everything can be acquired in a way you like, that’s how an MMO works. It has to please EVERYONE, not only YOU.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Not everything can be acquired in a way you like, that’s how an MMO works. It has to please EVERYONE, not only YOU.

This seems like a contradictory statement… Pleasing EVERYONE could be achieved by making items obtainable by more than one way! Anet obviously sees this to some extent… See the PvP reward tracks: rewarding PVE dungeon rewards to sPVP players.

Noviere.7309:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Not everything can be acquired in a way you like, that’s how an MMO works. It has to please EVERYONE, not only YOU.

This seems like a contradictory statement… Pleasing EVERYONE could be achieved by making items obtainable by more than one way! Anet obviously sees this to some extent… See the PvP reward tracks: rewarding PVE dungeon rewards to sPVP players.

You’re right, sorry. Let me rephrase that then. ANet needs to make sure that you can acquire all kinds of different skins through different content so that it’s balanced out. This one happens to require fractals which makes sense.

Personally, I’m no fan of dungeon reward tracks but I guess they had to put those in since you were able to get dungeon armor through pvp from the beginning.

On a side note, the PvP-only armor that’s going to be released through a reward track is something I’m going to want due to collection reasons. I don’t like PvP and therefore don’t play it much. However I don’t see the point in complaining because every game mode should offer unique rewards – If you want them, you have to play those modes and maybe even find you’re enjoying that kind of content once you spend some time in there (that’s anet’s thinking process btw, they said that back then when people complained about wvw being required for 100% map – and guess what, they also said it works). If you don’t, that’s okay – in an MMO, you will never be able to unlock everything; if you would be able to, it’d be quite a kittenty MMO in terms of goals.

Honestly I’ll have a lot more sympathy when I can exchange my 100+ relics for dragonite. And a lot of wvw players defended the decision to tie the gift of battle to a wvw rank so…meh? “It will take you like a few days worth of eotm karma training wahwah get over it”. It will take you maybe an hour a day for 5 days to get the relic. Man up and do it or pay a group to low man and join at the end.

Alternative choices that allow players to do the content that they enjoy more than others. I see that as a good thing. For example; Spvp now has reward tracks that allow players to earn dungeon armor, weapons and tokens without setting foot in a dungeon. Tokens that can even be used to buy the various dungeon gifts for Legendary weapons. Someday they might even add in a FotM dungeon path. It’s been requested by players that they please consider it.

I can understand how some PvE players loathe entering WvW to get that map completion done and I think having an alternative would be a great way to give those players something else to do that they might enjoy more. Such as complete the WvW maps OR Dry Top and Southsun to qualify for a gift of exploration. I realize WvW isn’t for everyone (though no one can boot you from the WvW map if they think you aren’t skilled enough and rage quitters only affect themselves there) and I can empathize with those who truly do not enjoy it.

So I’d love to see another way for those working on a Legendary to obtain a gift of exploration without setting foot in WvW if they really dislike it that much by exploring other areas they would enjoy more but still present a challenge. This isn’t about hand outs or sense of entitlement or I want it now mentality, it is the suggestion for a greater variety of still challenging alternatives that expand variety for all. The whole ‘suck it up and do it if you want the reward’ mentality sounds an awful lot like ‘I had to do things I can’t stand, so you should have to do things you can’t stand’. Not the best philosophy for content design imo.

Also, if 1 pristine fractal relic can be double clicked to make 15 fractal relics …why couldn’t 1 pristine fractal relic be purchased for 15 fractal relics or the stone be purchased for 75 fractal relics?

Regarding Gift of Battle requiring WvW ranks, you can still obtain this by barely setting foot into WvW. Badges are in achievement chests and ranks can be purchased via badges + laurels from the WvW laurel vendors.

Aveneo.2068:

FotM – 5 Pristine Relics
WvW – 1000 Badges of Honor
PvP – Mordremoth Reward Track

To me that would be a perfect solution for everyone.

i agree w/ this. while i only really PvE, wvw and Pvp players deserve more consideration than they get when it comes to acquiring aesthetic shinies.

Someone said 5 fractal runs is official requirement, just do it.
I will say, some people think that rules are set by people who rules them, but some people think that rules are set by people who being ruled.

Someone said people are asking “I want COF armor but don’t want to do COF”, but people are saying “you need to do COF + 5 fractal runs to get COF armor” is bad idea.

Someone said people are QQ in the forum to avoid puting effort to gain reward.
I will say, people are willing to put effort but in an enjoyable way or at least not in a hated way.
Although i am poor in vocabulary, I will use the word “advocate” to replace QQ. People are just voice out what they think is better, discuss in forum and hope for a improvement in the future.

Someone said anet are spoiling players if they make some alt way to gain the reward.
I will say, forcing people to obey the unreasonable “offical requirement” is spoiling anet.

Someone said not everything can be acquired in a way you like, that’s how an MMO works. It has to please EVERYONE, not only YOU.
But provide alt ways to gain the reward can please more people, who is being displeased? Is there some people are being displeased because more people are being pleased?

Someone give up fighting for the thing that they can’t get so they just against people who still fighting for it? The world is suck, admit it? I don’t buy this. I think the world can be beautiful, don’t keep yourself in dark, you can do something constructive.

This situation hits home for me. I started playing GW2 when it first came out – finished the Story, ran some dungeons (Mostly AC and CM but some Twilight also) then quit. I had around 300 hours (that’s it) in my character when this happened.

I came back about 3ish weeks ago. As you can imagine, I’m far, far behind. My gear is horrible (been working on it), my build was kitten (Found a few I’m okay with), and everything was basically new to me – not just the Living Story (wasn’t around for Season 1) but EVERYTHING.

I haven’t touched a Dungeon since with the exception of Honor of The Waves Story – horrible experience. The people I was grouped with were nice and friendly for the most part, but it was far harder than I thought for a story mode (this is prior to me getting a working build, so there was L2P issues present).

So, here I am wanting this new backpiece (remember, I need to upgrade my characters gear) and to do so I need to run Fractals – awesome, except I’ve never done even level 1. My experience with Dungeons is limited to three and that was 2 years ago.

The other options people talk about (WvW, Jumping Puzzles, etc.) are simple. I’m not hurting anyone or wasting others time when I go about those things – only my own.

If I jump into a group of Fractals, provided I can even find one willing to take a newb (And most are not, that is for sure) I very well could mess it up for four other players and cause them to waste their time.

It’s not about me breaking my comfort zone, or having to grind or anything like that. The issue here is my lack of experience can hurt other players, and the only way I can get the experience necessary to NOT hurt them, is to.. hurt them. It’s a cycle of negativity.

Not only that, I know how toxic the player base is in this game when it comes to group situations – I see it on the LFG, or by just listening to players talk, even in my own Guild (a lot of belittlement toward pugs and the like).

I would love to get into Dungeons and Fractals – but honestly, in this game, that feels almost like The Wall in Game of Thrones – impassable. There is a sense, for this game, that if you are ‘new’ there are certain things that are out of reach.

Every group I see, wants a ‘speed run’. No one wants to have a newb come along if that newb can be the difference between a 15 minute clear and a 2 hour clear.

As such, this back-piece is beyond my reach. I’m not really disappointed all that much, as intellectually, I understand that the only thing hold me back is me – I can just be selfish and say, “Who cares if I waste their time? I need to learn, so I’ll use these players as stepping stones” however, it’s not my personality.

Taking GW2 in as a whole – I think the game simply has a toxic community. sPvP is filled with putrid personalities, too.

Aveneo.2068:

FotM – 5 Pristine Relics
WvW – 1000 Badges of Honor
PvP – Mordremoth Reward Track

Acceptable rating for me. To be honest, I hate Fractal. I do not want to go if possible.
Another way for Mist Stone is good idea.

I think there are a lot of miss understanding of why people are mad/annoyed about the mist stone only being obtainable from FoTM

First of all, people don’t in general have a problem with “skins” being only available from one type of content. You don’t see a whole lot of people complain about the fractal back piece not being available from anything else than fractals

What people are complaining about, is that FoTM now became a requirement to another game mode (vaguely calling Living Story a game mode since it is a form of its own branch though highly coupled with standard PVE) This would be the same as the WvW skins being obtainable by first doing the WvW achievements and then go to FoTM to get the key for the chest

People are not set off by the idea of having FoTM exclusive items, but rather the mix of unrelated game modes.

Btw i would like to point out that i have no problem with FoTM, i have more than enough relics, but i do understand other players frustration

to those dumping on dungeons/FoTM stop PUGing and go with guildies, problem solved

lol the QQ is strong in the thread. Anet is not forcing anyone to do anything the back piece is cosmetic at best with the lol Nomad stats in the end it is a choice to make it or not. So if you want it bad enough just suck it up and do it.

“This would be the same as the WvW skins being obtainable by first doing the WvW achievements and then go to FoTM to get the key for the chest.”

Except it’s not like that at all, the scavenger hunt elements are all PvE and surprise FoTM is part of pve.

“Regarding Gift of Battle requiring WvW ranks, you can still obtain this by barely setting foot into WvW.”

I can say the same about the relic requirement. A level 1 fractal is faceroll, probably on par with early story mode dungeons. It would almost certainly take less time to get 5 relics then to get the wvw rank required for gift of battle.

rfdarko.4639:

“This would be the same as the WvW skins being obtainable by first doing the WvW achievements and then go to FoTM to get the key for the chest.”

Except it’s not like that at all, the scavenger hunt elements are all PvE and surprise FoTM is part of pve.

You know… WvW has been referred to as PVE by the devs.
I would make the arguement that WvW is more entangled with Living Story than FoTM due to the effects LS have on WvW

When the towers of nightmares was around, the toxic spores came to WvW

When scarlet placed energy propes all over tyria , they came to… you guessed it, WvW

When Mai Trin escaped LA, she went to EoTM (i don’t like saying EoTM is WvW but it is in the eyes of the devs)

Now if we are to use your argument, then the next episode is better to include a WvW specific item in order to upgrade (now only the skin) the back piece since this as you say, a scavenger hunt where we should visit all the elements of the LS.

Luna.9640:

Let me explain it the simplest way possible for you Lishtenbird.

We want to buy a car to go from point A to point B.

Where we like to drive Mercedes but we’re said that we can only do it by driving BMW.

Which is not correct since they’re both cars and can get us to desired destination.

“I want to get a prize for the motorbike race.

I drive my car there but I’m said I can only win by riding motorbikes.

Which is not correct since they’re both vehicles and can race."

Fixed that for you.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Ohoni.6057:

My point is that it doesn’t matter whether you or me like FoTM or not, neither is the respect for liking it or not. The point is that doing FoTM is an official requirement for getting a specific reward, and I simply cannot respect people who QQ on the forums because they do not want to do something but want the reward – because it looks like spoilt children begging their mommy to let them play videogames before doing their homework.

This is a game. The goal is to have fun. I believe it’s fair to expect players to do a certain amount of work to achieve rewards, but in the name of everyone having the most fun possible, I believe that players should have options as to the type of work they could do to earn them. Some players really don’t enjoy Fractals content, but really want the reward. Your solution is “do the content anyways or never get the reward.” That’s certainly one way to go, but I think there’s room for “do something else that you do enjoy, and also get the reward you want.” Obviously they can’t please everyone, they can’t make it so that you can earn the reward by just killing ambients all day, but I think there can be reasonable compromises.

5 fractal relics seems like a reasonable compromise to me, rather than say, 150+.

This argument boils down to this: “I want X but don’t want to do the work ANET says is equal to the value of X.”

It’s like… “I want a Liadri mini but don’t want to beat Liadri.”

Or… “I want the fractal backpiece but don’t want to do fractals.”

Or… “I want COF armor but don’t want to do COF.”

Or… “I want this tentacle back piece but don’t want to do all the scavenger hunt tasks required to get it.”

Edit: The time investment required to get 5 relics is far less than gathering the foxfire clusters, at least according to what I’ve read.

What s/he said.

It’s like… “I want a Liadri mini but don’t want to beat Liadri.”

Or… “I want the fractal backpiece but don’t want to do fractals.”

Or… “I want COF armor but don’t want to do COF.”

Or… “I want this tentacle back piece but don’t want to do all the scavenger hunt tasks required to get it.”

Yes to all of that. If you want to do those tasks, great. Those can be the quickest and easiest ways to do it, but there should be alternatives that might take more time and effort to achieve. Like with other elements of the backpack, “I want a Clay Pot but don’t want to grind T6 for geodes, so I can just buy one on the TP for about 11g.” Options. It’s also worth noting that this is not a standalone item, but rather the extension (possibly not even the final extension) of a multi-stage quest item. Players have put a lot of time and effort into developing their plants to this stage, only to be told that they have to do something extremely distasteful to continue. The “QQing” is perfectly understandable.

Edit: The time investment required to get 5 relics is far less than gathering the foxfire clusters, at least according to what I’ve read.

Probably, but then you can buy Foxfire Clusters off the TP and acquire all you need in minutes if you have the gold for it, while Fractal relics you need to get yourself. Now it happens that both these examples, “gold” is the alternative, and that doesn’t always need to be the case, probably shouldn’t always be the case, but they could use Karma, Laurels, Dragonite Ore (please please please be Dragonite Ore), it could be an optional scavenger hunt task in the open world, it could be something you could buy with twice as many dungeon tokens (so instead of running a few fractals, you could choose to run a dozen or so dungeon paths, which might be more convenient to you).

Someone who only plays PvE may want the Balthasar backpiece. So he either plays sPvP or he does not. His choice.

And that’s also something that is bad and should be changed.

Also, the tip with opening a thread specifically for lv1 fracs with people who are in the same position (never done fracs, just want the 5 relics) still stands because I’m sure, even without knowing the fractals, you can get those 5 runs down in a reasonable amount of time on level 1.

It’s not even about skill. I did the fractals at launch, and while I got bored of it about level 10 or so, I knew what I was doing, I’m still reasonably comfortable with the classic fractals and can probably get on board with the new ones easily enough, I can do this, I just really don’t want to do it.

To me, Fractals are way too much of a “locked in” time investment,m and I HATE “locked in” time investments. I like doing discreet activities that last no more than twenty minutes or so, drop in, drop out. If you could do one fractal at a time and then bounce without screwing over your team then I would probably do fractals a lot more, but so long as you’re locked into doing an entire sequence of them to get any meaningful reward out of them, fractals will remain my least favorite element of this game, and that’s from someone who avoids PvP like the plague in most games, and like the flu in this one.

I can understand how some PvE players loathe entering WvW to get that map completion done and I think having an alternative would be a great way to give those players something else to do that they might enjoy more. Such as complete the WvW maps OR Dry Top and Southsun to qualify for a gift of exploration

Amen. I got World Completion relatively early on, but getting the WvW portion took almost a third of my total map completion time, mostly just waiting to get access to a handful of Borderlands towers.

lol the QQ is strong in the thread. Anet is not forcing anyone to do anything the back piece is cosmetic at best with the lol Nomad stats in the end it is a choice to make it or not. So if you want it bad enough just suck it up and do it.

I’m pretty sure that the Ascended pack is a “choose your own stats” pack.

I’m happy to gather materials and do open world events and craft to make this backpiece, but I was really disappointed about the fractal relics, because I find the time sink and repetitiveness of fractals to be extremely frustrating and I don’t see how it’s in any way related to this LS event or item. I absolutely support the idea of using badges of honor for this, or some other alternative. I really like the model for Mawdrey and the idea of Mawdrey II so I hope someone here is hearing us.

Yes to all of that. If you want to do those tasks, great. Those can be the quickest and easiest ways to do it, but there should be alternatives that might take more time and effort to achieve. Like with other elements of the backpack, “I want a Clay Pot but don’t want to grind T6 for geodes, so I can just buy one on the TP for about 11g.” Options. It’s also worth noting that this is not a standalone item, but rather the extension (possibly not even the final extension) of a multi-stage quest item. Players have put a lot of time and effort into developing their plants to this stage, only to be told that they have to do something extremely distasteful to continue. The “QQing” is perfectly understandable.

Coucillor Phlunt: "Not so fast, my muscular friend. In light of this new development, I have decided to add further stipulations to the deal. ", It’s a classic bait and switch. I was almost 2/3rds of the way in before they pulled out that particular requirement. Not a fan of Fractals, never have been and holding desirable items from other game modes hostage isn’t about to change my mind.

What really gets me though isn’t so much what I feel is a bad design choice but that people who will in no way be handicapped or otherwise negatively affected by the OP’s proposed alternate to FOTM are so strongly opposed to it. /sigh

Harlequin.8593:

What really gets me though isn’t so much what I feel is a bad design choice but that people who will in no way be handicapped or otherwise negatively affected by the OP’s proposed alternate to FOTM are so strongly opposed to it. /sigh

This is exactly what I always find so strange too. How can anyone be against having multiple ways to achieve or do something. Why is someone against for an option for players to choose the way they actually like to do the most?

Ameepa.6793:

Harlequin.8593:

What really gets me though isn’t so much what I feel is a bad design choice but that people who will in no way be handicapped or otherwise negatively affected by the OP’s proposed alternate to FOTM are so strongly opposed to it. /sigh

This is exactly what I always find so strange too. How can anyone be against having multiple ways to achieve or do something. Why is someone against for an option for players to choose the way they actually like to do the most?

It’s the problem of the perceived equality now.

I would be happy to waste useless badges on the mists stone instead of precious relics, but I agree that a) those have very little value because there’s excessive amount of them, and b) the difficulty in running in a blob spamming 111 compared to a mildly organised fractal run is substantial.

To make it worse, there are enough things which “force” people who do not want to do something do it:

• Map completion in PvP area – complained about since release.
• Rank requirement for Gift of Battle.
• Jumping puzzles in PvP area.
• Mistforged weapons for WvW Tournaments.
• PvP backpack and the upcoming PvP armour skins.

Pristine Fractal Relics are just yet another thing in the row, but this time it’s WvW crowd QQing about doing the “hard” content they “despise” for 5 (!) times at lowest level (or buy them from dungeon sellers). We, PvE scrubs, simply do not feel that this request is equal in terms of difficulty, while it should. Want the reward? Go and do the content like everyone else does! …or get rid of all the other limitations other people are forced to face first.

I’m not opposed to alternate methods to obtain anything really, but I won’t be holding my breath. There are numerous things in the game that can only be obtained in a single way, this is just the next one. Having said that, it would be rather appropriate if this stone could be obtained through EotM as well as FotM. Emphasis on the “of the Mists” part of those abbreviations.

One thing I want to point out though, the new back items are obviously not a reward for the current and recent Living Story chapters. The LS is just the kick-off point for a string of actions you need to undertake to obtain them. They’re a reward for completing that string of actions.

Lishtenbird.2814:

• Map completion in PvP area – complained about since release.
• Rank requirement for Gift of Battle.
• Jumping puzzles in PvP area.
• Mistforged weapons for WvW Tournaments.
• PvP backpack and the upcoming PvP armour skins.

All of those can be done solo. I know I’ve done them all without needing to be in a guild or join an organised group. Map completion is one I agree with however.

The jumping puzzle you can get solo there is rarely anyone looking to PvP there.

The rank requirement for Gift of Battle is very low and you’ll likely get it at the same time as getting the necessary badges.

The mistforged weapons are skins for WvW players, just as there are skins for PvP players, skins for dungeon runners and fractal runners. I have no issue whatsoever with any of those being exclusive for that content.

The backpiece from the living world is for living world content, not WvW, not PvP, not Dungeons, not FotM. Therefore it should require living world or open world content to do and not force players into any of the other types of content.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Pristine Fractal Relics are just yet another thing in the row, but this time it’s WvW crowd QQing about doing the “hard” content they “despise” for 5 (!) times at lowest level.

It’s not just 5 times though. The daily requires 4 fractals which depending on the group can take half an hour each or longer. They also require the group to stick around stay for all 4 fractals. So at a minimum it’s 20 times.

So far over two days I have collected 2 pristine relics and it required 7+ hours of running fractals.

Let’s run it down.

The first group we got through one fractal ok and then the group leader couldn’t get past the wind on the cliff fractal (and refused to be ported) so quit the group and tossed everyone back to Lion’s Arch.

The second group we got past 2 fractals which took over an hour and then the leader had to go, so back to Lion’s Arch again. I had now wasted 3 hours with nothing completed.

The third group was semi competent, but halfway through one of the guys who had been dying a lot wanted to go back to the lobby and repair his gear and despite me pointing out that the game was telling us it would reset out progress he kept insisting on it and me pressing the no option apparently didn’t work so back to the lobby we went and so another hour had been wasted. The group broke up after that.

Next I started my own group so that I could be sure that I stood a chance to get to the end. This went ok for 3 fractals and progress was made and then I get to the last fight vs. the Aetherblade captain and two people leave the group as the fight starts. The other two die from cannon fire and that leave me alive to solo the boss. Which I did, but it took a while. So yay one daily fractal done in a mere 5 hours and I have one relic of the five I needed.

After some sleep and food the dailies had reset so I tried again, grouping up for a level 6 fractal. Again when we got the fractal with the Aetherblade Captain 2 people left, but fortunately before the boss started so we got replacements, but even then I spent most of the fight ressing them because they kept dying to cannons. Every cannon phase 2-3 people would die. So after 7+ hours I now have 2 relics.

Assuming the next 3 dailies kitten, I’m looking at about 13 hours of effort running fractals for 1 tiny part of the creation of the back piece. That is excessive. Even if it went perfectly and I got it done in 10 hours, that’s still excessive. Forcing players to do 10+ hours of group PvE content which very few people playing this game enjoy to complete living world rewards is wrong.

I have no issue at all with requirement that require you to complete an event in the world or to do a jumping puzzle or even if it was 1,000 geodes cost that would still be fine with me. Casual PvE in this game is great, it’s small scale group PvE where the issues are because you have to rely on other people performing. I have the same issue with other games as well, any time you get forced into group PvE I tend to quit games because it just completely ceases to become fun any more.

Yes I will still do this, but I will complain the whole way and curse Arenanet’s decision to force this on their players.

Finally, lets go back to 2012 and recall this blog post. https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success/

Is this fun?

No it’s kittening not fun

Lishtenbird.2814:

Ameepa.6793:

Harlequin.8593:

What really gets me though isn’t so much what I feel is a bad design choice but that people who will in no way be handicapped or otherwise negatively affected by the OP’s proposed alternate to FOTM are so strongly opposed to it. /sigh

This is exactly what I always find so strange too. How can anyone be against having multiple ways to achieve or do something. Why is someone against for an option for players to choose the way they actually like to do the most?

It’s the problem of the perceived equality now.

I would be happy to waste useless badges on the mists stone instead of precious relics, but I agree that a) those have very little value because there’s excessive amount of them, and b) the difficulty in running in a blob spamming 111 compared to a mildly organised fractal run is substantial.

To make it worse, there are enough things which “force” people who do not want to do something do it:

• Map completion in PvP area – complained about since release.
• Rank requirement for Gift of Battle.
• Jumping puzzles in PvP area.
• Mistforged weapons for WvW Tournaments.
• PvP backpack and the upcoming PvP armour skins.

Pristine Fractal Relics are just yet another thing in the row, but this time it’s WvW crowd QQing about doing the “hard” content they “despise” for 5 (!) times at lowest level (or buy them from dungeon sellers). We, PvE scrubs, simply do not feel that this request is equal in terms of difficulty, while it should. Want the reward? Go and do the content like everyone else does! …or get rid of all the other limitations other people are forced to face first.

Why don’t you go and open up topics with your issues like i did here rather than trolling us ?

Really if you think that you’ve been discriminated by any way by Developers go and oppose them and lead your own fight but please don’t come and oppose fellow players who are actually trying to get their game improved.

You have no right to troll this topic trying to get the game improved rather than trying to fight for the things that concern you and you mentioned up there really.

You just don’t have any argument in opposing this idea – which can lead to massive improvement for future additions to the wvw game type and improve overall gaming experience not only for wvw oriented players but for everyone.

(more than half of the words you use are used by frustrated teenager trolls just saying)

Lishtenbird.2814:

Ameepa.6793:

Harlequin.8593:

What really gets me though isn’t so much what I feel is a bad design choice but that people who will in no way be handicapped or otherwise negatively affected by the OP’s proposed alternate to FOTM are so strongly opposed to it. /sigh

This is exactly what I always find so strange too. How can anyone be against having multiple ways to achieve or do something. Why is someone against for an option for players to choose the way they actually like to do the most?

It’s the problem of the perceived equality now.

I would be happy to waste useless badges on the mists stone instead of precious relics, but I agree that a) those have very little value because there’s excessive amount of them, and b) the difficulty in running in a blob spamming 111 compared to a mildly organised fractal run is substantial.

To make it worse, there are enough things which “force” people who do not want to do something do it:

• Map completion in PvP area – complained about since release.
• Rank requirement for Gift of Battle.
• Jumping puzzles in PvP area.
• Mistforged weapons for WvW Tournaments.
• PvP backpack and the upcoming PvP armour skins.

Pristine Fractal Relics are just yet another thing in the row, but this time it’s WvW crowd QQing about doing the “hard” content they “despise” for 5 (!) times at lowest level (or buy them from dungeon sellers). We, PvE scrubs, simply do not feel that this request is equal in terms of difficulty, while it should. Want the reward? Go and do the content like everyone else does! …or get rid of all the other limitations other people are forced to face first.

You are forgetting the whole fun-factor which is the main point of games. Fun is the only thing that should be equal for all players.

It is not equal if someone loves to run those 5 fractal runs and someone else hates it. It is equal if someone loves to run those 5 fractal runs and someone else loves to press 1 1 1 after the blob.

It is not only this thing that should have alternative ways. Pretty much everything should.

Freedom of choice is what keeps people happy. Freedom to choose the way they do things.

I’d like to ask you to fill the next sentence:

“I don’t want players to be able to choose the way they find most fun, because…”

I’m just asking that to check if you really understand what you are against.

Lishtenbird.2814:

To make it worse, there are enough things which “force” people who do not want to do something do it:

• Map completion in PvP area – complained about since release.
• Rank requirement for Gift of Battle.
• Jumping puzzles in PvP area.
• Mistforged weapons for WvW Tournaments.
• PvP backpack and the upcoming PvP armour skins.

Pristine Fractal Relics are just yet another thing in the row, but this time it’s WvW crowd QQing about doing the “hard” content they “despise” for 5 (!) times at lowest level (or buy them from dungeon sellers). We, PvE scrubs, simply do not feel that this request is equal in terms of difficulty, while it should. Want the reward? Go and do the content like everyone else does! …or get rid of all the other limitations other people are forced to face first.

Really, Lishtenbird, if you think the examples that you listed is bad ideas in the game, open a thread to promote the change of the game. If you think they are acceptable, then you should not use them as your argument.

And I am glad that you are using “get rid of all the other LIMITATIONS other people are FORCED to face” as your statement.

Your like suffer, that’s your choice, why force others to suffer too?

Ameepa.6793:

“I don’t want players to be able to choose the way they find most fun, because…”

…MMOs often only give you one possibility to get an item and it really is a good way to get people to try new content. Furthermore, in my opinion, people are way too spoiled in that regard. If ANet decides there is only one way, there is only one way.
As Lishtenbird said, there are multiple instances of items/things being bound to different gamemodes, which is because, I say it again, ANet has the train of thought that luring players into content with such things makes them try out content thay may have never touched otherwise and possibly liking it, thus participating in it more often. While this may not be true for you, ANet’s statistics show (or have shown back then) that it indeed does work. So this is one more reason to keep it in. As a matter of fact, I’d like it if all ascended equip would only be available inside fractals – because that is the only place where you need it. I’d be fine with a stat reduction to make them equal with exotic in return, but that will never happen.
Going on, 1000 Badges of Honor instead of 5 Pristine Fractal Relics? What a joke. You get Badges for achievements or the EotM-Karmatrain which only requires time. The relics on the other hand require time AND a certain amount of knowledge and skill, but at the same time, the required amount is low enough so that everyone can do those five runs.
You said you can’t find a new group for fractals? Open your own on in lfg, or – I think I’m typing this for the fourth time now and I’ll write it in caps just because everyone overlooked it for some reason – OPEN A THREAD INSIDE THE FORUMS LOOKING FOR LIKEMINDED PLAYERS TO RUN THOSE 5 LV1 FRACTALS TOGETHER. This way you’re sure that you have a set of people who won’t flame and will stick with you through the end because they want to have it done too. I’m actually surprised I’ve not seen a thread yet, either I’m blind or some of the people here just want an easy way out.
What I also think doesn’t help you guys is your negative mindset against fractals – Maybe your runs back then went to kitten, maybe the groups you had yesterday were kitten. That doesn’t mean fractals are kitten. Start them with an open mindset, say to yourself “okay, there’s no way around it, but I never REALLY tried it out, so lets do this and see if it won’t be so bad at all”. If you’re lucky, you’ll actually have fun during those five runs, if not you won’t. You can’t enjoy something if you go in there with a negative mindset.

In conclusion, the most important things for you if you want the backpiece, because ANet sure as hell isn’t going to back out of this – If they do, they have a lot of kitten to change:

- Open a thread inside the forums looking for likeminded players (and maybe a tutor if you’re lucky) for fractals to get your five runs done. If that for some weird reason does not work, open an lfg saying “lv1, new to fractals”
- Go in there with an open mindset, with a negative mindset about fractals it’ll be more of a torture than it would be if you go in there with an open mindset and at least try to enjoy it. Maybe you’ll end up liking it too.
- www.gw2dungeons.net is a beautiful website where you can look up infos for the fractals (and dungeons in general), either before or during the run.

//Oh btw, there were people complaining back then because of the WvW-Exploration. ANet didn’t back out. They complained about WvW-Jumping Puzzles and associated achievements, even during LS. ANet didn’t back out. Iirc they also complained about the Gift of Battle requirement. ANet didn’t back out. Not sure if they complained about the PvP backpack and the mistforged, but my instinct tells me there were people who did and if they did, ANet didn’t back out.

Oh and Fractals are still part of the living story. (The Lost Shores and Fractured releases, to a certain degree the two releases with a temporary dungeon path too because those got added to fractals)

Lasica.5068:

All of those can be done solo. I know I’ve done them all without needing to be in a guild or join an organised group.

It doesn’t matter whether you can or cannot solo something, because MMO. It’s a fact that specific rewards are tied to different game modes, of which many people “despise” some; yet they’re there, protected by a large portion of other players. Same goes for Fractals – because ANet said so.

Lasica.5068:

Let’s run it down.

I started doing fractals as a 1000AP noob condition staff mesmer with a friend and PUGs. I know I’ve done it with little drama, so I know it can be done right with proper approach. I’m not here to analyze your approach again as I’ve already given plenty of options on how to solve the problem, from joining a guild or looking for like-minded players here on the forums to buying paths.

Luna.9640:

Why don’t you go and open up topics with your issues like i did here rather than trolling us ?

Really if you think that you’ve been discriminated by any way by Developers go and oppose them and lead your own fight but please don’t come and oppose fellow players who are actually trying to get their game improved.

You have no right to troll this topic trying to get the game improved rather than trying to fight for the things that concern you and you mentioned up there really.

You just don’t have any argument in opposing this idea – which can lead to massive improvement for future additions to the wvw game type and improve overall gaming experience not only for wvw oriented players but for everyone.

(more than half of the words you use are used by frustrated teenager trolls just saying)

Civil and argumented discussion, no personal attacks here, I see.

Ameepa.6793:

It is not equal if someone loves to run those 5 fractal runs and someone else hates it. It is equal if someone loves to run those 5 fractal runs and someone else loves to press 1 1 1 after the blob.

For hard content, you get good things. For easy content, you get bad things. Anything else is wrong.

Ameepa.6793:

It is not only this thing that should have alternative ways. Pretty much everything should.

Freedom of choice is what keeps people happy. Freedom to choose the way they do things.

For freedom of choice in methods of acquisition, see here.

If you want equality, bring equality everywhere. Some players cannot be more equal than other players. Until it’s done, there’s no ground for you request for equality in a specific situation while everything else is left intact.

Ameepa.6793:

I’d like to ask you to fill the next sentence:

“I don’t want players to be able to choose the way they find most fun, because…”

I’m just asking that to check if you really understand what you are against.

You’re misplacing what there is for what you want. You want to enjoy the game? Enjoy it by running in blobs or whatever. No one’s limiting you in how you enjoy the game. You want to enjoy a specific reward? “If you love to ride the sledge, you should love to pull the sledge”. Learn to enjoy the work to get it. If you don’t – move on to something else.

Games exist because there are rules – specific actions for specific rewards is one rule of this one. So here goes your sentence:

“I don’t want players to be able to get everything by doing anything, because in that case everyone has 6 legendaries tomorrow for afking in LA and the game shuts down in a week because there’s nothing to aim for anymore.”

Gah. the community just toxic. real toxic. can’t even letting out a voice here without someone saying people are QQing. No we are not QQing, we just don’t like they keep shoving fotm down our throat when we just DO NOT WANT to do that crap. it’s a waste of time. so stop making everything is about fotm. no it’s not, it’s a fail content. not all people have 12 hrs game play. everyone have their own like and dislike in this game. anet provide us with wvw,pvp,pve,and dungeons. all that places should be able to reach every player. that is why it’s there. why is it so hard for people to understand? give us some other options to get the items, how hard can that get into your brain? if people like wvw they should be able to get it from there. same with pvp and pve. people grind drytop to t6 with no problem, because they enjoy it, that is what they like to do. and everyone can do it, the more the merrier. no yells no ragequit and you can come and go as you please.now isn’t that a good community or not?

locust and elitist are everywhere, infecting this game. that is why they gave you dungeon, to vent all that creepy ego there. not all of us are like you. we just want to play, have fun and not care about any competition. that is not how GW2 supposed to works. you can even buy legendary with real money if you are that insane, and at the end of the day no one cares. crafting ascended back piece already there for everyone to enjoy without having the need to do fotm. i just don’t get it why now so suddenly they are back with their old ugly habit must do this only to get that only. it’s a living story kitten . they should give it to us when we beat the dragon. that battle was epic enough for us to get the items, but noooooo here let me give you 10 glooby glob glob instead. what an awesome logic.

Ishtar.6457:

Gah. the community just toxic. real toxic. can’t even letting out a voice here without someone saying people are QQing. No we are not QQing, we just don’t like they keep shoving fotm down our throat when we just DO NOT WANT to do that crap. it’s a waste of time. so stop making everything is about fotm. no it’s not, it’s a fail content. not all people have 12 hrs game play. everyone have their own like and dislike in this game. anet provide us with wvw,pvp,pve,and dungeons. all that places should be able to reach every player. that is why it’s there. why is it so hard for people to understand? give us some other options to get the items, how hard can that get into your brain? if people like wvw they should be able to get it from there. same with pvp and pve. people grind drytop to t6 with no problem, because they enjoy it, that is what they like to do. and everyone can do it, the more the merrier. no yells no ragequit and you can come and go as you please.now isn’t that a good community or not?

locust and elitist are everywhere, infecting this game. that is why they gave you dungeon, to vent all that creepy ego there. not all of us are like you. we just want to play, have fun and not care about any competition. that is not how GW2 supposed to works. you can even buy legendary with real money if you are that insane, and at the end of the day no one cares. crafting ascended back piece already there for everyone to enjoy without having the need to do fotm. i just don’t get it why now so suddenly they are back with their old ugly habit must do this only to get that only. it’s a living story kitten . they should give it to us when we beat the dragon. that battle was epic enough for us to get the items, but noooooo here let me give you 10 glooby glob glob instead. what an awesome logic.

Shoving FotM down your throat? Wow, this is the FIRST time you really have to set foot into FotM for a reward that is – in wide parts – gained outside of FotM.
This has nothing to do with 12 hours playtime a day because a lv1 fractal run should take 30-45minutes if you’re not all that experienced, 60 if everyone is a firsttimer and doesn’t know any of the fractals.
For reasons why there shouldn’t be what feels like a dozen ways to acquire something, see my last post.

They would have to severely nerf the badges given in Edge of the Mists. Well, they need to do that anyway.

I Am Dansker.7105:

Now if we are to use your argument, then the next episode is better to include a WvW specific item in order to upgrade (now only the skin) the back piece since this as you say, a scavenger hunt where we should visit all the elements of the LS.

Sure, tha’ts fair. I wouldnt complain if there was a wvw specific component. So? Thats a seperate argument. There can be both a fotm component and wvw component.

I am probably going to stop with the scavanger hunt 80% done because of FoTM, I HATE all the dungeons with their “special” mechanics and exploit encouragment.

On top of that the people doing that kind of contend are by far the worst company to have in a game, by far worse that the spvp community.

I really liked the idea of a pet that eats my bloodstone dust, I can feed it for months.

To bad…

Bazzoong.7145:

I am probably going to stop with the scavanger hunt 80% done because of FoTM, I HATE all the dungeons with their “special” mechanics and exploit encouragment.

On top of that the people doing that kind of contend are by far the worst company to have in a game, by far worse that the spvp community.

I really liked the idea of a pet that eats my bloodstone dust, I can feed it for months.

To bad…

Exploit encouragement? lolwat?
Also, pretty much all of those “special mechanics” are introduced with fractal level 10 which you neither have to run nor reach.
I can only repeat myself, open a kittening thread and search for likeminded people.

+1 to the OP and not arguing with people who for whatever reason don’t want others who don’t like certain parts of the game get this backpiece.

Pristine Fractal Relics are just yet another thing in the row, but this time it’s WvW crowd QQing about doing the “hard” content they “despise” for 5 (!) times at lowest level (or buy them from dungeon sellers).

I’m 100% PvE, I just hate the Fractals, and I have a surplus of badges left over from Achievement chests. It’s not the “let us use badges” part that’s important, it’s the “let us avoid those God-forsaken Fractals” bit that’s important. If they want to let us avoid fractals some other way then I’d be fine with that too.

…MMOs often only give you one possibility to get an item and it really is a good way to get people to try new content.

I’ve tried fractals. I do not like them. I do not need to try them again.

If ANet decides there is only one way, there is only one way.

This is not their hobby, this is their job. We are their customers. Their job isn’t to make things the way they like, it’s to make things the way we like, to keep the customers happy. If the decisions they make are not the ones the community would want, then they are best served by shifting gears, not by sticking to how they’d like things to be.

What I also think doesn’t help you guys is your negative mindset against fractals – Maybe your runs back then went to kitten, maybe the groups you had yesterday were kitten. That doesn’t mean fractals are kitten.

No, Fractals being kitten is what makes fractals kitten.

If you enjoy fractals, then that’s fantastic, have fun doing them without us, but don’t expect them to be everyone’s cup of tea. I think it’s fair to say that most of the players who ever could enjoy fractals in their current form ARE currently enjoying fractals. All those players who are not doing fractals have very good reasons why the current nature of fractals are not their thing, and they should not be bullied into participating. The same is true of sPvP, WvW, and any other type of content. Let people play how they enjoy, and try to get them every type of reward that they might want (cue sarcastically hyperbolic contents about how Dawn should drop off of ambients in 3, 2, . . .)

If you want equality, bring equality everywhere. Some players cannot be more equal than other players. Until it’s done, there’s no ground for you request for equality in a specific situation while everything else is left intact.

Ridiculous. If I see something as being unequal, then I will fight for that. If you see some other issue as being unequal, then feel free to fight for that yourself, I don’t argue against you. But it’s silly to say that you can’t argue that one thing is unequal until all other things are made equal, if you take that attitude then nothing could possibly change.

Lishtenbird.2814:

You’re misplacing what there is for what you want. You want to enjoy the game? Enjoy it by running in blobs or whatever. No one’s limiting you in how you enjoy the game. You want to enjoy a specific reward? “If you love to ride the sledge, you should love to pull the sledge”. Learn to enjoy the work to get it. If you don’t – move on to something else.

Games exist because there are rules – specific actions for specific rewards is one rule of this one. So here goes your sentence:

“I don’t want players to be able to get everything by doing anything, because in that case everyone has 6 legendaries tomorrow for afking in LA and the game shuts down in a week because there’s nothing to aim for anymore.”

Yes that is what I thought. You are somehow thinking that games should be the same as real world is, a chore, or a job, having to do something you do not like just to be able to enjoy the rewards afterwards.

Games should not work like that. Same rules do not have to apply to games. Those old sayings are nice, but they are ment for the real world.

In a game that sledge ride is the reward. Sledge is always magically up there, just waiting for you to ride it. You have to only get yourself up there to enjoy the ride.

-South side of the hill can be a tricky way designed for a small group to do.
-West side of the mountain can be filled with huge masses of obstacles ment for the blobs.
-North side of the hill can be full of enemy players.
-Inside the mountain can be a tunnel that is insanely tricky jumping puzzle.

All routes lead to the top and to the sledge ride. All require you to do something, but you can choose which one to take.

Ameepa.6793:

Yes that is what I thought. You are somehow thinking that games should be the same as real world is, a chore, or a job, having to do something you do not like just to be able to enjoy the rewards afterwards.

Games should not work like that. Same rules do not have to apply to games. Those old sayings are nice, but they are ment for the real world.

There are different games in this world.

• Some work like pure enjoyment machines. You push a button, it shows you a cool picture, you enjoy it. You push another button… and another… and close your browser tab because you feel no commitment and are no longer interested. You switch to another game, which is absolutely identical to the first one, but shows you different pictures. And again. And again.

• Some games work like real life. You push a lot of buttons, and if you pushed all of them right, you get a large printed picture which you wanted to get when you saw it in the preview. If you push wrong buttons, you do not get it, or get a different one. If you want to get the picture, you have to push these buttons; and when you’re done after many tries, you become happy because you’ve overcome the difficulty. You look at other people, admire their well earned pictures; you show yours – they admire yours. You find one more picture you like and do it again. And again. And again.

I don’t like the first type of games because I think they’re a waste of time. I don’t play them, but I believe you like that kind of stuff. That’s your right and your choice.

I like the second type of games. Only overcoming difficulties with my skills make me enjoy my reward, because then they have value for me. Apparently, that’s not you definition of enjoyment; that’s your right and your choice. However, ANet designed GW2 this way and keeps designing it that way – so you either accept it or leave the reward (or the whole game).

And there’s a reason why ANet did it: games which require zero effort can only have a very short lifetime because of lack of commitment and long-term goals. For a Buy To Play game like GW2, no loyal veterans means death.

Ameepa.6793:

In a game that sledge ride is the reward. Sledge is always magically up there, just waiting for you to ride it. You have to only get yourself up there to enjoy the ride.

-South side of the hill can be a tricky way designed for a small group to do.
-West side of the mountain can be filled with huge masses of obstacles ment for the blobs.
-North side of the hill can be full of enemy players.
-Inside the mountain can be a tunnel that is insanely tricky jumping puzzle.

All routes lead to the top and to the sledge ride. All require you to do something, but you can choose which one to take.

Such casual games can exist, but they have several limitations:

• Many players leave because they get bored too fast after riding all the slopes several times. When the game runs out of new players, it dies and is replaced by the same product in a different wrapping.
• The game cannot grow by altering game modes and giving rewards for more difficult content, like a special sledge which you get for climbing the mountain yourself and not by magic. Because as soon as it does, it stops being casual and threads exactly like this one appear on the forum.

Furthermore, even in your game you cannot get an “Enemy Killer” special sledge for riding the three sledges without enemies because you despise the sledge with enemies. And if you want to get it nonetheless, I should ask you what is the logic of getting an “Enemy Killer” reward for killing 0 enemies… and we get right here where we are.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Ameepa.6793:

Yes that is what I thought. You are somehow thinking that games should be the same as real world is, a chore, or a job, having to do something you do not like just to be able to enjoy the rewards afterwards.

Games should not work like that. Same rules do not have to apply to games. Those old sayings are nice, but they are ment for the real world.

There are different games in this world.

• Some work like pure enjoyment machines. You push a button, it shows you a cool picture, you enjoy it. You push another button… and another… and close your browser tab because you feel no commitment and are no longer interested. You switch to another game, which is absolutely identical to the first one, but shows you different pictures. And again. And again.

• Some games work like real life. You push a lot of buttons, and if you pushed all of them right, you get a large printed picture which you wanted to get when you saw it in the preview. If you push wrong buttons, you do not get it, or get a different one. If you want to get the picture, you have to push these buttons; and when you’re done after many tries, you become happy because you’ve overcome the difficulty. You look at other people, admire their well earned pictures; you show yours – they admire yours. You find one more picture you like and do it again. And again. And again.

I don’t like the first type of games because I think they’re a waste of time. I don’t play them, but I believe you like that kind of stuff. That’s your right and your choice.

Nope, I would not like that kind of games. I would like the third kind of game that allows the player to push a lot of buttons in correct order, but in an activity they have chosen to do it.

Lishtenbird.2814:

I like the second type of games. Only overcoming difficulties with my skills make me enjoy my reward, because then they have value for me. Apparently, that’s not you definition of enjoyment; that’s your right and your choice. However, ANet designed GW2 this way and keeps designing it that way – so you either accept it or leave the reward (or the whole game).

Nothing in my example prevents you from choosing that path and enjoying your skill. You are the one valuing them so why would you choose some other path?

Lishtenbird.2814:

And there’s a reason why ANet did it: games which require zero effort can only have a very short lifetime because of lack of commitment and long-term goals. For a Buy To Play game like GW2, no loyal veterans means death.

All my examples require effort.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Ameepa.6793:

In a game that sledge ride is the reward. Sledge is always magically up there, just waiting for you to ride it. You have to only get yourself up there to enjoy the ride.

-South side of the hill can be a tricky way designed for a small group to do.
-West side of the mountain can be filled with huge masses of obstacles ment for the blobs.
-North side of the hill can be full of enemy players.
-Inside the mountain can be a tunnel that is insanely tricky jumping puzzle.

All routes lead to the top and to the sledge ride. All require you to do something, but you can choose which one to take.

Such casual games can exist, but they have several limitations:

• Many players leave because they get bored too fast after riding all the slopes several times. When the game runs out of new players, it dies and is replaced by the same product in a different wrapping.

So is it better not to have slopes at all for the players who like what those slopes would have to offer so those players are not there at all?
Won’t the only players left with one slope get bored after doing that slope several times?

Lishtenbird.2814:

• The game cannot grow by altering game modes and giving rewards for more difficult content, like a special sledge which you get for climbing the mountain yourself and not by magic. Because as soon as it does, it stops being casual and threads exactly like this one appear on the forum.

Furthermore, even in your game you cannot get an “Enemy Killer” special sledge for riding the three sledges without enemies because you despise the sledge with enemies. And if you want to get it nonetheless, I should ask you what is the logic of getting an “Enemy Killer” reward for killing 0 enemies… and we get right here where we are.

In that utopia game there would not be “Enemy Killer” special sledge. There would be only the sledge ride that is the same for everyone and everyone had fun getting to that sledge.

I like the second type of games. Only overcoming difficulties with my skills make me enjoy my reward, because then they have value for me. Apparently, that’s not you definition of enjoyment; that’s your right and your choice. However, ANet designed GW2 this way and keeps designing it that way – so you either accept it or leave the reward (or the whole game).

And there’s a reason why ANet did it: games which require zero effort can only have a very short lifetime because of lack of commitment and long-term goals. For a Buy To Play game like GW2, no loyal veterans means death.

You’re still making strawman arguments. Nobody is asking for a method that requires zero effort, or even a method that requires less effort. All we’re asking for is a method that allows for the same or even more effort to be applied in a different area of the game, one that we enjoy more. Nobody’s talking about getting a free lunch or an easy ride, just a challenge that is more enjoyable to us.

Alternatively you could all just get over yourselves and do it the current way, which is well within reason, I might add. Now, to conclude with a sweeping generalization:

We could, but instead we’re asking for an alternative. That’s a thing that is happening.

Ohoni.6057:

Alternatively you could all just get over yourselves and do it the current way, which is well within reason, I might add. Now, to conclude with a sweeping generalization:

We could, but instead we’re asking for an alternative. That’s a thing that is happening.

People asked for an alternative to WvWvW related stuff such as:
Gift of battle requirements
Jumping puzzles in a PvP zone
LS achievements in a PvP zone
Exploring 4 pvp maps for world completion.

Anet never changed it, in fact, WvW players defended some of these.
Now it’s the other way around, well if they changed it they’d have a lot to answer for and there’d be a pretty big uproar (2 years asking for a change ignored).
PvE & Spvp players had to suck it up if they wanted any of those, now WvW players will have to suck it up.

“The rank requirement for Gift of Battle is very low and you’ll likely get it at the same time as getting the necessary badges.”

See, there use to be a pve alternative for the gift of battle, it was the achievement boxes which gave badges of honor. Then anet changed it such that there was a rank requirement, which forced you into wvw. That was their original intent. They WANTED you to play different aspects of the game. The same goes for this back piece. It’s a scavenger hunt in which you have to do different aspects of the game.